SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 39

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Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing day 39.

With so many ages, so much forensic technology.

How can we not find an 84-year-old grandma?

Tonight, breaking, regarding the tattoo, we've all been studying.

An expert joins us with all of the clues that are left behind because of that one sliver on the perps wrist.

And also, why not release the ransom notes at this juncture?

Couldn't the vernacular, the verbage in that ransom note, reveal to some people who the kidnapper is?

How can we trace the email? Was that the way it was conveyed?

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

It's like he didn't expect the camera to be working, and then he has to backtrack and try to cover it.

He's like, what? Maybe I can beat it to death.

And then got the big surprise when maybe he saw the camera blinking?

What we're looking at here is likely some kind of vandalism that took place.

Joining us an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight in the search for Nancy Guthrie.

We do know that authorities have asked Mexican residents to pull video.

Is that being done in the Nancy Guthrie case? Joining us right now, a special guest, Darren The Dude Rosa.

Darren, tattoo artist of rising dragon tattoos in New York City, 30 plus years perfecting artistry,

and Japanese fantasy, American traditional, and bold style tattoo at risingdragon.com.

Darren The Dude Rosa, thank you for being with us. I know you have carefully studied the perps wrist.

Let's see the video of the porch guy approaching the front door of Nancy Guthrie's home.

They are in Tucson, the video. Now notice he's got his body totally covered.

Long sleeves, gloves, possibly two sets of gloves, face covering, the works.

Now wait for it. At some point, he reaches up to dismantle or up the doorcam or upfuscate his own moves.

And when he does that, much is revealed.

Now we know that the FBI has a tattooed data bank, largely gleaned from gang memberships.

It includes gel tattoos, it includes felons, they're not members of gangs and they're tattoos.

Whenever a person has a tattoo that is entered in writing, in typed writing on their bookend report.

Every tattoo, every mark on their body.

Very often those tattoos are photographed at the time of bookend to identify the perp.

We also know that Arizona has a gang tattoo database. We also know about tag, tattoo, and graffiti,

a special elite team in Quantico that analyzes tattoos and graffiti of all sorts, even from foreign countries.

Now let's zoom in on the tattoo.

Let's zoom in and take a look at the tattoo.

The sliver of tattoo between the sleeve and the glove.

Straight out to Darren the Dude Rosalto, you have studied this and what, if anything, have you learned?

Yeah, well very interesting, watching that footage with you.

First of all, it looks like he took care to cover himself, he's got the hoodie, the gloves.

It looks like he's right handed, he keeps preferring that hand when he's trying to cover the ring cam.

The very sliver, I see black and gray work, I can see some subtle shading on the edges of the crease.

It looks like to me it's most likely a full sleeve, especially because he took...

Hold on just a second, you've got Defcon for on me, Darren the Dude.

I want to talk to you, you said you see black and gray work for those not familiar with the gang affiliation tattoos.

What does black and gray mean to you?

It's a prevalent style, especially with the Mexican cartel or the Chicano gangs.

They prefer a style where the outline of the tattoo is a single needle and the majority of the tattoo is shaded with levels of black ink.

We refer to as black and gray.

Okay, look at the photo, tell me what you're saying, I think I know what you're saying regarding black and gray, but explain to the viewers please.

Okay, well, we can see some form and then on edges it looks like some shading in between the black forms.

You know, just based on the location of New Mexico, California, all of the neighboring states, there's a high prevalence of these kind of gangs.

And this is the preferred method of tattooing that they like and they appreciate and they also use to identify members of the gang.

And I would, you know, besides covering his fingerprints, assume that he's also has hands tattoos and that, you know, like to have your wrist tattooed, people don't normally go out of their way to just have their wrist tattoo.

And it's likely he is very heavily tattooed, yes, tattoos on his hands.

And it's probably like gang of radiation sometimes.

Okay, Darren, the dude Rosa joining us from New York City, he is at rising dragon tattoos.

Okay, Darren, I want to follow up on something that you just said, sure you stated that an individual would not go out of their way just to have their wrist tattooed.

What did you mean by that?

Well, I meant by that, you know, and kind of goes to my first point.

This guy is, you know, I would put all the money on my pocket that this guy is very heavily tattooed. He has quote unquote sleeves.

So I would say we're looking for a heavily tattooed individual.

He's wearing the buckle of a, you know, I put more money down and he probably has neck tattoos.

This is the, this is, you know, how they like to get tattooed.

Okay, let me see Darren.

Darren Rosa joining us, I see you have a neck tattoo.

Are you telling me that no one will go out of their way just to get a wrist tattoo.

Yes.

Is that the devil?

Is it the devil?

I showed my neck tattoos because they're in color.

Is that the devil?

Is that the devil on your neck?

What is that?

Oh, no, that's a dragon head.

Okay, I see it better now.

Okay.

I'm glad to know it's not Satan himself now back to this.

Okay.

with you. Every time I have dealt with a defendant or a witness that had anything on the wrist,

it was part of a larger tattoo. Always. The only time I've seen a singular wrist tattoo.

Okay, let's use Angelina Jolie as an example. Okay. Maybe a female might get a D-A-B or

some little. Yeah, they get a little infinity loop or like their grandfather's initials or something,

but you know, this guy is absolutely heavily attached to. And it's a major. Oh yeah.

It's amazing. What? So we even got that sliver from that ring camera like props to the ring camera.

Oh, yeah. Tell it. Google. Google did it. So Darren, you are confident based on 30 plus years

in the tattoo business that this guy has a full sleeve translation from here covering the arm

like a sleeve. That's what a sleeve means. He's probably covered everywhere. And especially why

you know, okay, he doesn't want to be seen. He's wearing a baklava, but I would hand down bet he's

also got neck tattoos and probably something near his eye because that's that's how they run.

Just to help you going forward, baklava is a net-based dessert. Okay.

baklava is the covering. So when you go to a great restaurant, my scholar would be delicious.

Okay, back to the tattoos. Do you believe that getting tattoos is addictive? And I've got

a reason for asking because you're saying you think this guy's heavily attached. I think it's

addictive. Once you start, you like it and then you end up with your whole body covered.

Well, there's a lot of different factors and we have our Bethany for our behavior analyst.

But I mean, there is endorphins like any people who get addicted to marathon races or ultra marathon

races that the runners high. There is something called ink therapy that people who come to

us in the winter months who are suffering from seasonal depression come in for ink therapy.

Yeah, people most likely get heavy work, but also gangs, cartels get heavy work. The kind of

people that would perform this kind of crime get heavy work. Okay, you mentioned black and gray

work that you've identified in that sliver of tattoo that you believe that is part of a particular

region's choice. And what region would that be? That would be the southwestern right states

with California, you know, the neighboring states, Arizona, you know, and not to put anything

against the Mexican people, but it's a very high population of Mexican immigrants and those of

them who don't get legal work, you know, to crime and and join gangs is just a natural evolution.

Speaking of crime, I've been looking very carefully at the tattoo there and the dude and

I don't believe it's a jail tatt, but you have a different opinion, explain.

Well, you know, it doesn't look like super clean work. It looks a little fuzzy. I know the whole

image is fuzzy, but I would say if it was performed in a penitentiary they might do makeshift tools.

They're not going to use high grade 316 Japanese steel for their needles. So you're going to get

have some bleed throughs on the outlines. It's just how they do it.

Well, Darren, I disagree with you. Of course, my law degrees have not prepared me to argue with you

sufficiently, but every jail tatt I've ever seen was not that delicate because they don't have

the tools that you were just mentioning. They find precision tattoo tools behind bars. You

mentioned penitentiary as opposed to jail. Do you find more prison tats in the pen versus the

local jail? Because I do. Okay, right. Penitentiary means they're going to be there for a long time,

correct? So these people, especially if we're talking about cartels or gangs or whatnot,

become very sophisticated with their network of who assist them, right? And their daily activities

and their income. They're going to be friendly with guards, staff, etc. They're going to have stuff

smuggled in or assisted in. And some of the work has become a lot more. I've seen very

sophisticated stuff to rival legal tattoo shops. I've seen very sophisticated stuff come out of

full potential. During the reason I'm making the subtle but important distinction between jail and pen

is because if he's in the pen versus the jail, that gives me another clue as to who he is.

Jail. Jail. Think of Andy of Mayberry. Think of the Fulton County Jail. Think of the local

jail. The time you spend in a local jail is less than in the pen, the penitentiary, the C.I.

correctional institute. Why? You were in the local jail. You were in the local jail because you've

got a misdemeanor and you're doing 12 months or less or you're waiting for your trial or your

court date. That's less time for you to smuggle in tattoo artistry mechanisms or so my point is

you got to be there for a while to get all that smuggled into you. So that tells me if this is a

jail, this guy's done hard time in the pen and he's been convicted as opposed to waiting at the

Mayberry lockup with Otis. See what I mean? Does giving me a clue as to who he is. Now you believe

this could be a prison tattoo? I do not because it's too delicate. You refer to a Japanese needle.

What type of instrument would be used to create a tattoo of this magnitude at full sleeve of that

fine definition? Well these days the tattoo machine has evolved into kind of a fat marker like

pen and very sophisticated gradations and needles. These new machines take what we call

they no longer take needle bars they take cartridges and some of the better cartridges are using

316 it's a type of stainless steel Japanese metal for the needles. So sophisticated tattoos can

definitely be performed in the pen absolutely. So black and gray work from the south

western region of the country. The wrist tattoo indicates a full sleeve a full sleeve

air go therefore suggest a full body tattoo. You believe the gloves not only cover up fingerprints

but also an identifying tattoo. Yeah. What do you have tattoos on his hand? Would that be inked?

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a continuation. I mean he's got a sleeve. He's got a hand tattoo

and what we're seeing is just the in between. This is the junction. Okay. Let me ask you the million

dollar question. Literally the 1.2 plus million dollar question because that is the amount of the reward

for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie 1.2 plus million dollars on the table.

Darren after looking at this I want you to think carefully before you answer. Could you identify

just make a stab at it your best estimate as to what this sliver it's a small portion of a larger

tattoo. What is it? Most likely you know if we're going to go with the Chicano gangs and stuff

like that it's going to be angels, cloud work, family members it's going to be some kind of

in memory some kind of memorial to either a deceased relative or a friend who died with him on the streets.

I'm looking at it as you're speaking you said angels, cloud work. What's cloud work?

Clouds, heaven you know like there would be words like to you know to my uncle angel maybe some

praying hands all these kind of like Christian symbolism that would be my stab. And also Darren

the dude Rosa you mentioned you believe he's right hand dominant. Do people typically get their

dominant arm or hand tattooed or no. No they well if we just go by the people coming in my shop

for some reason they want to get their left arm done first. Not sure why. It might be this psychological

thing to get like the weak arm strengthened because tattoos can be like a symbolism of strength

or protection and that might be why a lot of people tend to get their left side first.

If this is his right side and we know it's a full sleeve that means his left arm which he probably had

tied at first is also a sleeve so we got two sleeves and according to your reasoning a full body.

Joining us Darren the dude Rosa renowned tattoo artist in that circle at rising drag and tattoos

in New York 30 plus years perfecting artistry in Japanese fantasy American traditional and

bold style tattooing. Any other thoughts on the tattoo Darren? I would say like like like to repeat

um it's going to be heavy work um he's covering up his hands and uh his neck uh I would say all of

that is all of that's tattooed and he's most likely in a gang affiliation he most likely

heads them help um so I would say his true is also heavily tattooed and Darren have you ever

been approached by law enforcement to identify a tattoo on a perp? Yes I have uh funny you should

ask that question that's a great question many years ago I would say about 30 years ago

uh I had FBI approached me with photos of uh a long island um her this particular serial killer was

going after um of pay for sex women and um they all had tattoos actually.

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crime stories with Nancy great

there and isn't true that tattoo artist like yourself

have huge catalogs of tattoos for people to pick from and isn't it also true that the tattoo

artist that did this likely did all of his tattoo work and would remember it if they could be

found yeah that's true on the catalog thing doesn't apply so much i i would think if he was in a pen

and and he was getting um like i said she kind of had to they were probably you know um

uh spontaneous um and put together with with some of those christian symbols uh in memorials i

i talked about um but uh absolutely um most likely the guy who tattooed him is also in a pen

intention tree uh unless he's gotten out been released i wanted to come on and um

it's been two weeks since our mom was taken and

and i just wanted to come on and say that um we still have hope and we still believe

the pima county sheriff's department has put up a link begging for video let's see the link from

pima county sheriff's department it states that the department is urgently requesting assistance

in locating Nancy Guthrie they describe her age last seen if you have info contact pima county

sheriff's they give the number and they actually give you a way to submit video evidence i can't

stress how important this is straight out today mag crime stories investigative reporter tell

me about the website set up by pima county for citizens to hand over surveillance video

Nancy it's a very simple uh click to send website there's a link right there on the page

so that uh people living in the area or outside that have any kind of video or pictures

that are of interest uh that they can submit right there online it's a very simple process very

wise they did it i'm just surprised it took so long but Nancy right now law enforcement

knows that these the this crime can be solved but it's probably caught on video and it's one of

these videos that maybe they didn't think about or somebody saw and didn't give any credence to

and now they're going wait a minute i need to go back and look that's what law enforcement has

been asking of neighbors of Nancy Guthrie and uh please go back and review your video footage

now they're and they actually say urgent urgent request guys you can find this online

this is for our friends at fox news and the reason we're showing it is because a neighbor submitted

this video which behind the porch guy video could be the single strongest evidence in this case

trust me this is being analyzed blown up i sowed the works and it wouldn't be the first time

a case was cracked by car surveillance video do i have to say Brian co-brugger let's see that video

he went back to the scene at least 11 times but this is the video that i find really interesting

there is video of him cruising around the neighborhood it's hard for us to make out with the naked

but this was enhanced and i sowed isolated to catch his white elantra not only there but a store

clerk like a 7-11 quick trip type convenience store took it upon herself to go through hours and

hours of video and then call le law enforcement when she spots a white elantra speeding by

the morning of the murders around 4am that is where white elantra first originated from her

then white elantra was sent to law enforcement all around the area including

Washington State University in Pullman they plug in who's registered here for a parking permit

with a white elantra that's the first time the name Brian co-brugger emerged let's see then of

course there's the Caitlin Armstrong case they so-called glam yoga instructor there she is

circling circling multiple times once wasn't enough casing the home of her love rival a world

champion beautiful young dirt bike racer in her early twenties she murdered her she murdered

her over a love triangle or so she perceived caught on video that leads to the yoga instructor the

glam yoga instructor as she is called she looks like Satan to me Caitlin Armstrong was convicted

of murder and then of course Molly Tibbetts the young co-ed studying all day into the evening

decides to go for a run she is approached by this vehicle see following her as she's running

she finally threatens to call 911 at that point the perp attacks her and murders her distinctive

markings on the side of his vehicle lead to the killer and he is convicted so in this case to

you Scott Iker an urgent plea to the public has now been made submit your video can it work

it worked in those cases it's a fantastic push again I know they've said it several times but

now they're giving them a quicker way to submit that video you got to remember is probably the

older community doesn't know how to get the video off their cameras or how to provide it you know

a simple way to get that information to the website hopefully that helps or at least have the

FBI or the sheriff's office come over and and download that stuff for them I think it's a could be a

very key aspect to the case we've seen this numerous times and as this investigation progresses

from the frantic stage right hey we've got a missing person to we've got you know what now we

have a possible kidnapping to now we're kind of getting into all right the forming of a task force

when you form this task force you're kind of going backwards a little bit to say all right we

need to regroup we need to re-examine the data we have now we need a second set of eyes on it we

need to re-triage to all the 40,000 leads that came in and see did we miss something the first time

and they but then they might start saying okay you know what we we're missing video from this area

let's make another push to get more video from that area in a case such as this you're going to

keep that evidence until the case is complete we never took something and then fixed it and

gave it back to the people that we took it from what were they looking for day 39 in the search for

Nancy Guthrie now the FBI using the behavioral analysis team looking at everything every

identifiable thing every mannerism of the porch guy straight back out to Bryant Fitzgibbon discuss it

from director operations USPA nationwide security as to why the ransom that hadn't been released

you say you're not surprised I am surprised because at this juncture what is there to lose

yeah again I don't believe the FBI will release something if they believe they have something

to gain from it and I think in this case you know with these short ransom letters there's nothing

for them to gain and potentially things for them to lose about releasing information about the

crime scene that may have not been public yet joining us we're now enlisting the Beverly Hills

jurisdiction dr. Bethany Marshall she's the author of deal breaker you can see her now on peacock

and find her at dr. Bethany Marshall dot com dr. Bethany while the FBI is sifting through over 40,000

tips they've got the behavioral analysis team looking at his every move his tattoo the ransom

notes why not release them and what if anything have you gleaned you know Nancy those ransom notes

are so important because they tell us something about intent if it's a very short note that's asking

for financial renemoration or some kind of you know money then that means the intent was just

a kidnap for profit however if there's some kind of ideology in there some kind of a misive

or a manifesto now the intent changes to more of a stalking profile because we know that stalkers

cannot help but write about the relationship with the victim and the victim's families

and stalkers do pick up a lot of clues about the victim's life so the fact that this person

knew something inside of Nancy's house it could tilt either way a kidnap for profit proving that

she's they were in there or kidnap as a part of a stalking meaning that this perpetrator had

gleaned a lot about Nancy got threes life what do you make of not releasing the ransom notes

Dr. Bethany because I feel like this juncture what is there to lose I I wish they would release

the ransom notes and I'll tell you why most people have what I call affectations in their speech

it's it's a word or a flourish that they use to make what they're talking about see more important

than it really is and so I think people who are criminal are sort of rather empty people grandiose

people they have poor thought you know reasoning abilities so I would guess that there's going to be

some kind of an affectation in these notes that would be recognizable to a family member or a

friend of the perpetrator or do you agree or disagree Dr. Bethany that the part likely has a criminal

history you know what I do think the fact that they couldn't find him in quotas tells me that

he's he's in a family comes from a family who's rather unsophisticated in other words they're not

on 23 and mini they're not doing genealogy research in their leisure time that it's a very hard

working family whose time is tied up making money in terms of a criminal history what I

really think you know Nancy I want to talk about the behavior and criminality when I first saw

porch guy I felt irritated and I've examined what was my irritation about he saunters up to the house

as if he owns the place there's a casual arrogance which tells me that he has done this before

either he has a relationship with Nancy and he feels like he has power over her and that's the

casual arrogance or he has targeted old ladies and he's broken into houses before and that that's

where we see the familiarity on the other hand he does not anticipate the ring camera which tells

me that if his offending pattern is targeting elderly people who can easily be subdued and he's

not too concerned about you know being caught that he's really been targeting lower income households

which do not have ring cameras so that maybe this guy's offending pattern is that he's becoming

emboldened to go into wealthier and wealthier areas where he encounters new scenarios that he had

not anticipated to whoever has her or knows where she is that it's never too late

and you're not asked or alone and it is never too late to do the right thing

and we are here and we believe and we believe in the essential goodness of every human being

and it's never too late

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at amu.apus.edu that's amu.apus.edu so who would have seen Nancy likely a cohort a

compatriot of the kidnapper somebody crosses the border they can take off in any direction they

want to go this person claims that he or she saw Nancy Guthrie in Mexico.

where is Nancy Guthrie is she still alive is she in somebody's basement or heading away in an

apartment is she eating is she sleeping did they give her her meds this as we learned civilians

have been asked in Mexico to search video will that be done in the Nancy Guthrie case joining me

in all star panel straight out to Dave Matt crime stories investigative reporter Dave the latest.

Nancy you know you mentioned the search and we've got the FBI asking for help from citizens they're

asking for video any video they're really focused on this trying to locate anything that leads

to Nancy Guthrie we know that at this point there has been little in terms of information that has

been let out by the the local sheriff nanos the FBI being a little more open about how they're

searching for things as you see that video right there that video is probably the most important

we've seen yet showing two and a half miles away a car going back and forth away from Nancy's house

but Nancy the FBI seeking help in Mexico is what we're hearing now and asking for videos there so

this is an ongoing not cold at all kind of case and it's just at the point now where you're going

what could possibly happen next where do we go now we've got to get help from the public guys you

are seeing video that nanos first said was unrelated but that now is being analyzed over and over

also we understand that the FBI behavioral analysts are reviewing the porch video to determine

what they can learn this as the ransom note is being searched studied to determine what if any

clue it can give straight out to Scott Eiker farmer FBI with a cellular analysis survey team homicide

in Norfolk, Virginia now with precision cellular analysis Scott I'm very concerned about why

the ransom notes have not been released to the public as Dave Mac was describing so much evidence

being kept close to the vest I'm sure you recall the case of the unibomor tech is in ski

he terrorized the country for years with bombs the unibomor and it was only when his manifesto

was published in the New York Times did someone his brother identify his phraseology he knew

immediately that was his brother why has the FBI kept this close to the vest I don't try to figure

out what nanos is thinking but wouldn't it help if that was released if in fact the ransom notes are

legitimate that's the first question is the are the ransom notes legitimate and we could obviously

say those letters from the uti bomber is manifesto we're related to him and there was

enough information there to say yes this is our bomber now we can release it to try to identify

our suspect and that worked out great we had a family member say I recognize that that's my my

crazy brother okay now looking at the case here with Nancy Guthrie do we actually really have

a ransom letter do we have a one that's actually been you know tied to the kidnapping or do we

have a bunch of fake ransom letters people just trying to get money so the first thing is realizing

have been able to determine yes this is a real ransom letter related to the case and you

can prove that you would start working that hard first and you get to the end and you say I

can't figure out who this guy is based on the letter then you ask for the public's help to

Brian Fitzgibbon is joining us direct operations uspa nationwide security leading a team of

investigators around the world including extractions from ex co looking for missing people for marine

Iraqi war vet I'm wondering why they are not releasing the verbiage in the ransom note they don't

know whether the ransom note is connected or not have you considered the possibility Brian that at

the beginning this was a ransom a kidnap for ransom but that at some juncture they could no longer

offer proof of life so they offered details about Nancy Guthrie's room and the inside of her

home possibly what she was wearing because they could not send valid i.e. video or photo proof

of life any longer have you considered that angle and if so wouldn't releasing the ransom note

be of great help the way the manifesto and kazinsky was a great help I mean think think

even in the jambane Ramsey case the vernacular the word the verbiage that was used the word

hints how many people do you know set maybe me occasionally use the word hints hints that is like

waving a red flag to a bull might as well take out an ad on third avenue in downtown Manhattan

who uses that so that is an example then another great example would be BTK by torture kill

where he taunted taunted police and local media his typed written letter of taunting

was traced back to its typewriter and trust me it's not just the key the key itself even with the

tight ball on a let's just say IBM selector the ribbon can give you the ransom note or the note

sent there are a million ways to track a ransom note so help me bribe his gibbons why hasn't the

FBI released the ransom notes I'm not surprised by this at all Nancy I don't think that the FBI has

anything to gain by releasing this and I'll explain that for two reasons one compare it to Ted

kazinsky's manifesto that was released in 1995 that was 35,000 words okay so the the chance of

somebody on seeing an ideology connecting that back to a person with 35,000 words it is very

probable the jambanade ramsi letter that was handwritten right there might be somebody who

recognizes the handwriting in this case these were short missives sent digitally to TMZ the FBI

doesn't want to cloud this with copycats being created or with that you know as they verify this

they don't want that those pieces of information that were specifically in there being released

we saw some things at the home that were concerning to us we believe now after we've processed

that crime scene that we do in fact have a crime scene that we do in fact have a crime

and we're asking the communities help if you know or think you know anything about Nancy

Guthrie's disappearance please dial toll free 800-225-532-4 800-225-532-4 or if you wish to

remain anonymous 520-882-7463 520-882-7463 there is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward

for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie and arrest much less the conviction

is not required for you to get the reward we remember american hero captain Cody

cork us army reserve command just 35 killed in a drone strike quate american hero captain

Cody cork Nancy Gray signing off goodbye

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