Season 4, Episode 3 Jacqueline Batres Bonilla on Therapy and Latinx Culture

My name is Jacqueline Batres Bonilla.

I was born in El Salvador and moved to Minnesota at the age of 11 years old. I am a Cáncer survivor who lives with a grateful heart and with a mission to bring God’s kingdom to the earth. Happily Married to Marvin Batres who are also excited to become adoptive parents. I'm a Marriage and Family Therapist working with individuals, couples and families. I am also a co- lead pastor  at Espíritu Santo church in the East Side of Minneapolis, MN. I'm a person who believes to be called to listen to others with an incarnational heart and mind to bring healing and freedom.

“The Blessings comes after the step of obedience”

From El Salvador to Minnesota

Transcripts:

Danielle (00:05):

Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender and healing. And I'm so excited for you to meet my friend and colleague, recent graduate, working in the therapeutic field, also a pastor. Um, and you know, we're gonna touch on the fact that this is this stereotypical Latinx heritage month. But, you know, it is really important for us to take up some space and to give voice, uh, give opportunities to talk about what, what mental health means for our community, and really wanna be celebrating this all year round. And that's gonna be intentional as well. But, you know, here we're jumping in with this wonderful woman. So listen in and, uh, looking forward to the conversation. You know, I'm so impressed with like, your work, and I know just bits and pieces from Instagram and a lot from, like, the feeling I had when I was with you mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I'm excited for your journey and hear what you're hearing, what you're up to, and you know where you've come from. So I don't know where you wanna go or how you wanna open up talking about that, but

Jacqueline (01:26):

Basic things. Um, Okay. Um, me number is jacking Bon. Um, and I was born in El Sal la moved to the US specifically directly to Minnesota. Um, when I was 11 years old, um, my parents, you know, my dad came to California during the Civil War, El Salvador, and, you know, he learned his English and like work in restaurants and he has shared with us that he didn't like the fast pace of the us So he went back and then got married with my mom and had my older brother and I. Um, so he has always, um, fought to be in our country. And it is interesting because he kind of lost the opportunity to become a US citizen, because after he left the amnesty in the eighties, um, so all my uncles who stayed are US citizens, and he's kind of like the only one who was not able to become an, I mean, he planned not to come back to the US

He, we, I mean, my dad always, and my mom worked hard to be business owners and just like, you know, do the best they can. Um, but I remember in the, we moved here 2000. In 2000, I just remember my dad saying like, We have too many debt. Um, we have to go to the us. And my mom was, my mom has always traveled. So, um, so my dad, when he moved, when he moved back in the eighties and he went back, he actually, uh, went to school to become a pilot. So he was a taxi, what they call, um, and when he got married with my mom, he was still like finishing his like license and all that. And, um, he's saw his plane to buy us a house. Um, so then he started like, Okay, I have to do business. And so we were, um, lucky enough to have visas since we were little because my dad, um, so we will come like for vacation and see like California and like Maryland and Washington, where we have, uh, family as well.

So then my mom was a be a head, I don't know if you ever heard this term before, but my mom will travel every month to bring tamales, , you know, all the, the good stuff that you couldn't find here. And my mom will bring back things that people wanted to, you know, send their relatives, like computers, perfumes, Nikes, FIAs, and all those things that, um, anyways, so my mom was ara like every month. And my dad was at home, you know, like with the business in El Salor, but in 2000, before 2000, he's like, We have to go, we have a lot of debt. And, um, so I was 11. My brother was, he's three years older than me, so he was 14, 15. Um, and yeah, we moved to Minnesota and it's crazy because a year after, so, you know, we have to kind of learn English and all the stuff that, you know, um, a year after I was in school and learning English, I was diagnosed with cancer, um, arrived on my sarcoma.

And, um, I don't know, we see, we, we see it now as there was a plan for us to come to Minnesota, You know, just having the Mayo Clinic and having like good medical assistant here. Um, and the type of cancer that I had was so rare, so rare, um, for a girl, my, for a girl my age. And, you know, it was such a blessing. Now we see like, okay, like maybe my parents never wanted to come, but I don't know if I would've been alive if I was an else because of, um, just, just the, what's the word that I'm looking for? Um, how advanced science isn't here mm-hmm. than in our country. Um, but it was, it was such a good place to be at that moment. Um, and here I am years later, um, you know, I feel like I've finished learning English at the hospital.

So it's been, it's been a journey. It's been a journey because my mom, so when we moved months later, the earthquake in El Salor occur and we were granted the TPS status, so the temporary permit status. So my dad had that, my older brother and me, um, my mom kept her visa because we still had the house over there and relatives that my mom was taken care of. So while I was being treated with chemotherapy and surgeries and all that, my mom stayed a couple times and had to go back just to keep her visa. And in one of those trips, she was not able to return looking enough for me. Um, I was like finishing my treatment, um, because she was the person with me in the hospital. Like, I don't remember my dad staying with me, but my mom was there with me. Um, and then that's how kind of my family got separated. And I have two younger siblings who were born in the US so they ended up being with my mom because they were younger. And my dad, my older brother and I stayed here. Um, so,

Danielle (07:33):

So a forced family separation? Uh, almost like in the last, And when's the last time you saw your mom?

Jacqueline (07:44):

2003.

It's been a long time.

Danielle (07:50):

Yeah. I mean, I feel the pain, even as I say, the year.

Jacqueline (07:53):

Yeah. It, it's been a long, long time.

No, it was just, um, just cancel. And, you know, she was traveling with my younger sister. We actually had to do some like, healing stuff with her because she remembers mom crying. She was like four years old. She was born in the us Um, she's like 10 years younger than me, and she just remembered that, you know, immigration brought her to the office, interrogated her, and she's like, You're not able to return with your family, you have to go back.

So my sister, yeah, just remember like crying for crying because my mom was crying but not understanding what was going on. Um, but until this day, she is one of the most, like, she feels the pain of me not being able, cuz I'm now, I'm like the only one who hasn't seen my mom mm-hmm. , because my brother got married and he was, you know, just blessed to receive his papers through the, through her, his wife. And, but like, he has, after 16 years, he was able to see my mom, but I haven't, And my sister is like the one of those that she's like, I'm broken. Every time I go, I celebrate like seeing my parents, but at the same time I'm broken because you're not able to. Um, so yeah. But it's, it's hard.

Danielle (09:32):

I mean, and what's hard is like, I think, and you know, you're a therapist now too. We work with people and, you know, they have traumas around family or friends or mm-hmm. loss or coworker mm-hmm. , you know, there's the list of traumas and in, in some of these traumas, like, it's like how do you address them? How do you address the injustice? But in this situation, it's systemic trauma mm-hmm. and systemic harm that separated your family and separated you from your loved ones. So in a sense, I just feel that powerlessness of like, Hey, I'm gonna shout at the wind mm-hmm. , and if I make too much noise against the system, it's the same system. I need to accept me mm-hmm. so I can have what I need to see my family. So it's, it's a bind.

Jacqueline (10:22):

Yeah. And now that I'm a therapist, that I see those cases and hear those stories too. Not, not that I, you know, but I can see the trauma that it causes a child

You know, and how families take, because unfortunately this is so normal in our communities that people don't see it, don't stop to hold the, the pain, the grief that comes with it. Mm-hmm.

You know, people just like, you just have to keep going, like keep working and keep like living life. And I'm like, now when I see clients and I feel how this has traumatized them and increase their anxiety level depression and all those things I'm seeing, like, how have I, like not even I stopped to think about mm-hmm. all the things that I was feeling, you know, and that were caused because of that

Um, or to my siblings who were younger or to my parents who had, you know, no, say no, no power to do anything. Um, so yeah. It's, it's crazy just to think about all the things that this can cost. You know, things like this separation in the family.

And it is happening as we speak.

Danielle (11:53):

Right. As we speak, it's still happening and it's, you know, it's ongoing for your family. It's ongoing for parts of my family. And, and like I said, there's the, uh, one of my brother-in-laws is demanded to ask forgiveness from the US government before he can return. And he didn't, he didn't do anything except for like go to work, you know? Mm-hmm. . And, uh, and I know that as people are listening, they were like, that's enough, but you don't understand. Right. The whole background to that. And so even the idea of asking forgiveness to a government mm-hmm.

For feeding yourself or feeding your family mm-hmm.

Jacqueline (12:35):

And for my mom was for taking care of me. Cause I was, you know, Cause they give you a period of time and then she was leaving right before, right before. And even just telling the immigration officer about, I have a daughter who has been diagnosed with cancer, she's in treatment. Um, you know, what, what was she doing? You know, just working, taking care of her family mm-hmm. . Um, but yeah.

Danielle (13:09):

Yeah. And just the punishment for that. Mm-hmm.

I, I, again, like you only share what you want too, but I just, I'm noting that part of your journey is to embark on healing.

Not, not just like your body, like healed in your body, like from the cancer, whatever, but like this sense of like, there's hope for healing for this kind of trauma. And I'm just kind of curious like, what, what prompted you to get into counseling or therapy? Like

Jacqueline (13:47):

You know, everything started when God was bringing me the attention of listening. Well, like, he's like, you have to learn how to listen. And I even wrote my thesis about this, like listening to myself, listening to my body, listening to him, listening to what people are saying. And one of the things that I got from that was, there's like, there's healing and freedom when you're listen. Well, when somebody listens with a heart, with, you know, um, going to school. I've learned that this moment when, when we are with the clients, this is the holy place, the holy moment. Right. We kind of like the Moses on the bush on the burning bush moment of taking my shoes out because I'm taking myself out and, and kind of arriving to your where you are and listening. Right. And I just remember like, just having those moments of like, of quiet and just listening.

And I don't know, I just started like listening more. I like to talk, love to talk more than listen, but God was just like giving me that desire to like, learn how to listen and listen well, don't just listen to understand, but listen to not just listen to respond, but listen to understand. And working in, in the campus ministry at Bethel, um, I started just listening to people and people were so attracted to come and me with me instead of the pastors. You know, I was not a pastor at that time, but, you know, I, I was like, okay, I feel like this is my calling to listen to people. How can I, you know, learn that and educate myself more on that. And, um, my, my dad also has been suffering from depression. So when he, he was separated with my mom for four years and a half and he decided to go back and that was like the first time that he was like, he got a, a breakdown like mental health and like, just being like moving, you know, like being here for so long and then moving back.

Um, and just all the family, like he had, he knew that he, when he left, he was not able to return. Right. You know, and having a business and then starting over over there. It was just so many things. So my dad was diagnosed with depression and anxiety and went through like heart moments and just for us was just like a matter of understanding. Right. We knew, we grew up listening to his stories about how he grew up and everything that he went through, he always been open about it. Mm-hmm. , you know, the hard things, the good things. Um, but part of that was also like understanding like, I need to understand more what this means. And working with the pastors and working with college students helped me like, okay, maybe this is something that I wanna do. And that's how I like got into it.

And when I'm learning about the basic skills, I'm like, the Holy Spirit already told me this stuff, you know, how to listen well, how to like in be in tune with people's emotions and like, um, so for me was just like a confirmation of, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Once I started learning and seeing the systemic, you know, as a marriage and family therapy, you see the system, you see mm-hmm. how it's not just about the client, but it's about how the parents, you know, we're parenting this child and how it has affected and it still affects us as an adult. Like mm-hmm. , everything. You know. So that's how I, and I, I feel like my husband can tell you, I felt like this program was for me first. Yeah. I always took it as I was like, in this, in therapy, like I did, took therapy cuz they told us like, go to therapy because this is going to trigger some of the things like from family of, and, and I just remember like some of the classes I was like driving home balling and crying and crying and my, my husband's like, What happened?

What did they did to you? What, what? And I'm like, Just gimme a moment. Just gimme a moment. And so I feel like all those three years were just like, first for me, you know? And also receiving therapy and like, talking about my family of origin and things that have been going on. Um, it was really helpful. And then couples therapy and, you know, it's, but it's, it's been a good journey to, to do, I've done a lot of healing. Of course I'm not done because, you know, the stronger parts of me are like, okay, this part is ready, let's move to this next one. And I think, I think that's how God works. He's not, you know, the Bible says like he's gonna finish the work until he comes back. So we're this working progress. Um, it's not gonna be all at once. Um, because he's putting, he's making those parts of us stronger for those parts that are still mm-hmm. , um, bleeding that we don't know of Right. In our soul or memories or things that we don't even know that are hurting us, but they are

Danielle (19:24):

So I mean, that's really beautiful and I can definitely relate to going to therapy during grad school and uh, or like, and coming home and telling Louise, we're doing this all wrong. Like all of it is wrong or we're not okay. And just be like, Can you just, can you just take a deep breath because we can't, we can't accomplish all of this in one moment. Right. Yeah. But I think, I love that picture that you talked about, like, I've been doing a little research on s and like the method of healing in la Latin America, specifically in Mexico, and just this idea that there's this alignment between your heart and your mind and your soul. Mm-hmm. , like you're, and when you're in alignment, that's a place where you're listening from mm-hmm. and I You didn't say that, but that's what I heard mm-hmm. , that, that alignment is, it's already in you that desire to be aligned, that alignment and that those people when you were a campus pastor recognize that mm-hmm. and we're like gravitating towards, towards you in that space. Mm-hmm. .

Jacqueline (20:35):

Yeah. Yeah. It, it is just, but it, but it takes moments of listening to yourself mm-hmm. listening to it. The whole thing of listening has been an ongoing theme in the last five years for me. Like list learning how to listen to myself, my limits as a human being of resting, of why do I get mad for certain things so quickly? Why do I get irritated? Why, you know, those listening to my emotions, listening to my body, um, and then listening to God and listening to other people. Mm-hmm. , um, you know,

Danielle (21:15):

What, what do you tell someone that comes, and I know sometimes therapy can be stigmatized in communities of color. Like what do you say to people that come and be like, I don't need therapy, I'm gonna be fine. Or like, that's crazy. Like, you're making things worse. Like, what do you say to kind of like some of those initial defenses towards therapy?

Jacqueline (21:39):

I mean, I that's such a good question. I could just take it back to, I've always say it's not because people think, right? People think that you have to go to therapy because you're crazy. You're having Right. You're hearing words that are not, you're hearing people say something, you're seeing things and you know, and I I I just tell them, you know, sometimes we just need somebody who's not from our family to listen to us. And while we're talking, we're processing

And we can hear ourselves without being judged because people are just listening carefully to us. You know, that, that's such a, everybody needs somebody to, to listen to them. Mm-hmm. , we, we desired that. We desire to be known to be understood mm-hmm. in therapy. That's kind of like the basic things right. That we learn. It's just somebody listening to, with nonjudgmental

Understanding your perspective. That's kind of like the goal. So I feel like this is just, if your husband's not listening to you, if your wife is not listening to you, if you don't have friends who can listen to you, if your parents aren't listening to you, like just go to therapy. You don't have to be crazy to, you know, or be diagnosed with something, but

I think we all have that desire to be heard and understood

Um, that, that will be my simple thing that I'll say.

Danielle (23:07):

And I hear, you talked a lot about how your faith really aligns with, you know, being a therapist and how do you, how does that come into play when you're with clients?

Jacqueline (23:21):

It reminds me to the book of Esther, who, I don't know if you read the book of Esther, but the book of Esther doesn't mention God at all, but he's present.

And as a person who believes that the Holy Spirit is in me and he works through me, sometimes even I'm not even knowing that he's working through me. Sometimes I can sense, you know, but mm-hmm. , I, I don't necessarily, like at the, at the clinic where I'm at right now, I don't necessarily work with as a Christian therapist. Mm-hmm. , um, people, some people, not my clients, but my supervisors and some coworkers know that I am a pastor too. Um, but I, I know, and one of my professors actually told me this, like, you can, you can work with God, you can work with the Holy Spirit. Nobody has to know

He just, he will just prompt you those questions about, talk about the grandparents, and all of a sudden this big thing comes from the family origin mm-hmm. that the client's side is just click in my head and you know, that who prompt you that question or, you know mm-hmm. . So that's kind of like how I see it. Um, and always thinking about the best, the best, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, like the best outcome for them, right? The, the healing, the, the connecting the dots that they didn't know. Um, so just thinking about that, not necessarily like, but like, just thinking how the best outcome for the client. Does that makes sense?

Danielle (25:10):

Yeah. I think what I hear is you're loving people really well.

Like, you're giving a piece of yourself and in a nonjudgmental way. And it's more like an invitation. What I hear in, in like, in like, kind of like my, like learning therapeutically. Like you're inviting them to their own story so they can listen to themselves and, and,

Jacqueline (25:34):

And they can find their own answers.

Yeah. They can, They, I think that's, I think I read that. I don't even know where like, the good therapist will help you, will help you, you find your own answers. It's not that I have the answers, but you will, something will click in your mind, you will know, Oh, this is connected with how my dad raised me. You know, things like that. And find they have the answer. They just, we're just getting all the things out of them.

Danielle (26:08):

A lot of what I hear too, and like, you can tell me if this is true or not. Like I hear like a lot of hospitality

Lot of welcome. Which feels very cultural. Right.

Jacqueline (26:19):

I was just gonna say that is just like the Latino way, like the Salvador way. Like it's, it's, and I remember even in one of our professors saying like, we have to be hospitable even in our, in a way of thinking and how we receive ideas and how we receive views of people.

You know, but it is, it is a hospital way of like,

Danielle (26:44):

Again? Can you say that again? That was good. Like, we have to be, how did you say it?

Jacqueline (26:48):

We have to be hospitable in the way we think and the, how we receive the views of others and the perspectives, you know, because hospitable, you always think about, Oh, I'm welcoming you, um, you know, to the cafe. Like, here's this chair. Like, are you comfortable? Are you feeling good in this space? But in therapy, it's about the ideas and the views of people and what they bring, right?

And receiving that as, Oh yeah, I receive that. I, I receive it as, you know

Even if it's different.

Danielle (27:28):

Yeah. I get that feeling even right now in this moment. Like, there's so much invitation to be curious mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . That's really beautiful.

Jacqueline (27:38):

Yeah. Just, just learning.

Danielle (27:41):

So if someone like, wants to get ahold of you or find you as a therapist, as a pastor, like how do they do that?

Jacqueline (27:53):

Well, um, they can go to a great lake Psychological services. That's where I work. Um, if they're looking for a therapist, um, and as a pastor, they can just go to our Instagram speaking to Santo Minneapolis and that's it. Or look me up, Mrs. I like, I like my two last names. That's such a Latino thing. People try to like, oh, I don't like, I like my two names and my two last names, you know? And now when I graduated, I went back to using my full name because it was a thing like, when you come to the US first, you don't know the language. And I discovered like, why did I change my name from Jacqueline to Jackie? Mm. It was because teachers will tell me, you know, when I started going to school, sixth grade, Can we call you Jackie? And I didn't know how to respond. I'm like, Okay. You know, I didn't know how, I didn't know English, so I didn't know how like no, my name is Jacqueline, not Jacqueline, not Jackie, Jacqueline. You know, So when I graduated and I started working, I'm like, I'm gonna go back to my given name, Jacqueline. You know? So now I'm trying my best to say that because a lot of people in our community already know me as Jackie, but at work is Jacqueline.

Danielle (29:11):

Yeah. . Yeah. I lo I love, I love that you're reclaiming your name and then so much meaning and purpose.

And that's so much of what you're inviting your clients to, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for being with me today.

Jacqueline (29:33):

Yeah, no, thank you for inviting me to your space

Danielle (29:36):

Too. Yeah. We need to do this again. Yeah. .

 

 

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.