Season 6, Episode 19: Jenny McGrath, Rebecca W Walston and Danielle S Rueb Castillejo on the Five Year Old Boy Kidnappe

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jan/21/ice-arrests-five-year-old-boy-minnesota

US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detained a five-year-old Minnesota boy on Tuesday as he returned home from school and transported him and his father to a Texas detention center, according to school officials.

Liam Ramos, a preschooler, and his father were taken into custody while in their driveway, the superintendent of the school district in Columbia Heights, a Minneapolis suburb, said at a press conference on Wednesday. Liam, who had recently turned five, is one of four children in the school district who have been detained by federal immigration agents during the Trump administration’s enforcement surge in the region over the last two weeks, the district said. portrait of child wearing black polo

Liam Ramos. Photograph: Courtesy of Columbia Heights Public Schools

Liam and his father had just arrived home when they were detained, according to Zena Stenvik, the superintendent, who said she drove to the home when she learned of the detentions.

When she arrived, Stenvik said the father’s car was still running and the father and son had already been apprehended. An agent had taken Liam out of the car, led the boy to his front door and directed him to knock on the door asking to be let in, “in order to see if anyone else was home – essentially using a five-year-old as bait”, the superintendent said in a statement.

 

Danielle (00:02):

Well, Hey, Jenny, how you doing? I'm hanging in there. How you doing? Same hanging in there a part. I think of it as trying to get in or out of a space and hanging by my fingernails on an edge. That's how I think of it sometimes.

(00:27):

One time I told a friend, Hey man, I can do a pull up off a door jam. And they were like, really? And I was just like, yeah. And then they tried to do it repeatedly. Their hands were so sore. I was like, I didn't really mean it. I was just joking, but maybe it's like that doing a pull up off a door jam or something. Yeah,

Jenny (00:46):

I can't even do a normal pull up. I'm working on it. I'm working on my strength.

Yeah. I'm trying.

Danielle (00:53):

Good for you. That's our power.

Jenny (00:55):

That's right.

I am currently in Florida, and so I'm a little worried about this ice storm that's coming through. I think I'm a little bit south of it, so we should hopefully be in the clear, but it's still, you can feel Winter's, the Bruin here.

I know. It's a little scary. We're going to just thankfully be parked somewhere where we don't have to drive for at least a few days just in case.

Danielle (01:33):

Okay, cool. Cool. Will you stay in Florida or what's your trajectory right now?

Jenny (01:38):

Yeah, we're going to be here probably a couple months, and then we'll probably head over to New Orleans. There's a New Orleans book festival. It's a giant book event, so we're excited for that. And then we'll start probably heading back up to the northeast when it starts to warm up again in late spring, early summer.

Yeah. Yeah. So my manuscript is complete and I have sent it to my ideal publisher and they like it and they're going to pitch it by the end of February. So I'm just crossing all my fingers and toes that they all feel like it's a really good fit, and hopefully in about a month from now I'll have a definitive answer, but I have a really good feeling about it. I really value this publisher and yeah, it feels really in alignment with what I'm trying to do with my book.

I am trying to help folks understand that their individual body, specifically white cis women in the United States that has been positioned and conditioned within Christian nationalism is just that it is conditioned and positioned by Christian nationalism. And the more that we become aware of that and conscious of that, the more mobility and freedom we can find in our bodies and hopefully in our country and in our world, so that we can move and breathe and have our being in more free sovereign ways.

Danielle (03:26):

That feels like a little bit of a dream right now, but hey, I'm a dreamer. I'm all over it. Yeah, I'm all over it. I'm all over it. Well, every time we hop on here, I'm always like, oh, what should we talk about? And there's always something really fucked up in the world to dive into, right? Yes.

Jenny (03:44):

Yeah. Yeah. I think what feels so loud is just in the last 24, 48 hours, I don't know exactly the date five-year-old boy was taken with his dad from Minnesota just immediately basically swept away to another state, and so the family and their lawyer, or even just trying to track down where they are, and I am thinking of four and five-year-olds I know in my life and just how young and how tender and how dependent a child is at that age, and I find myself feeling a lot of rage and a lot of grief and a lot of helplessness, a sense of I want to do something and how do we do something? How about,

Danielle (04:40):

Let me just read this to us or to us, US Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Ice detained a five-year-old Minnesota boy. On Tuesdays, he returned home from school and transported him and later his father to a Texas detention center. According to school officials, Liam Ramos, a preschooler and his father were taken into custody while in their driveway, the superintendent of the school district in Columbia Heights, a Minneapolis suburb, said at a press conference on Wednesday, Liam who had recently turned five is one of four children in the school district who have been detained by federal immigration agents during the Trump administration's enforcement surge in the region over the last two weeks. The district said Liam and his father had just arrived home when they were detained. According to Zena Sten, the superintendent who said she drove to the home when she learned of the detentions. Wow.

(05:31):

When she arrived, SVI said the father's car was still running and the father and son had already been apprehended. An agent had taken Liam out of the car, led the boy to his front door and directed him to knock on the door, asking to be let in order to see if anyone else was home, essentially using a five-year-old as bait. The superintendent said in a statement, Stenbeck said Another adult living in the home was outside during the encounter and had pleaded to take care of Liam so the boy could avoid detention but was denied. Liam's older brother, a middle schooler came home 20 minutes later to find his father and brother missing. Stenbeck said two school principals from the district also arrived at the home to offer support. Mark Osh, an attorney representing the family, said the family had an active asylum case and shared paperwork showing the father and son had arrived at the US at a port of entry, meaning an official crossing point.

(06:22):

The family did everything they were supposed to in accordance with how the rules have been set out. He said they did not come here illegally. They're not criminals. He said there was no order of deportation against them, and he believes the father and son have remained together. In detention, school officials released two photos of the encounter, one showing Liam in a blue knit hat outside his front door with a masked agent at his side and another showing Liam standing by a car with a man holding onto his backpack. Why did tain a five-year-old, you could not tell me this child is going to be classified as violent criminal. Stevi said. Tricia McLaughlin, director Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary, said in a statement on Wednesday night that ICE was conducting a targeted operation to arrest Liam's father, who she called an illegal alien. Ice did not target a child, she said McLaughlin also alleged the father fled on foot, abandoning his child, saying, for the child's safety, one of our ice officers remained with the child while the other officers apprehended.

(07:21):

His father. Parents are asked if they want to be removed with their children or ICE will place the children with a safe person. The parent designates. She added the school district provided a statement from Liam's teacher who expressed shock over the boy's attention. Liam is a bright young student. He's so kind and loving, and his classmates miss him. He comes into class every day and just brightens the room. All I want for him is to be back here and safe. The detention of a young child will have ripple effects at Prakash. Once his classmates learned, the government took him away. I'm not qualified to talk about how much damage that is going to cause. It's not just the family. It's the entire community and all those kids who are now going to be facing secondary trauma. Also, on Tuesday, a 17-year-old Columbia Heights student was taken armed by armed and masked agents without parents present.

(08:12):

Stevi said that student was removed from their car. She said in another case, on the 14th of January, ICE agents pushed their way into an apartment and detained a 17-year-old high school girl. And her mother, Stevi said in a fourth case on January 6th, a 10-year-old fourth grade student was allegedly taken by ice on her way to elementary school with her mother. The superintendent said the 10-year-old called her father during the arrest and said the ICE agents would bring her to school. But when the father arrived at the school, he discovered his daughter and wife had been taken. By the end of that school day, the mother and daughter were in detention center in Texas.

(08:48):

Vic reported that as school officials are preparing for a press conference on Wednesday afternoon, an ice vehicle drove to the property of the district's school and we're told by administrators to leave ice agents have been roaming our neighborhoods, circling our schools, following our buses, coming onto our parking lots and taking our kids stem said the DHS did not respond to inquiries about other arrests and the Port of ICE's arrival on campus. In an interview after the press conference, the superintendent said The arrests and looming presence of vice had taken an enormous toll on students, parents, and school staff. Our children are traumatized. The sense of safety in our community and around our schools is shaken. Stenbeck said, I can speak on behalf of all school staff when I say our hearts are shattered, and our fourth student was taken yesterday. I just thought someone has to hear the story they're taking children. School officials said, some families are choosing to stay home out of fear of ice. Stevi said, school leaders we're working to aid families affected by ice. Our role is to educate children during the school day, but now we're trying to help people navigate this legal system. She added our main priority is to keep children safe. They're children. They're not violent criminals. They're little kids.

(10:01):

Hey, Rebecca. I was just reading the story of little Liam who was used as bait to get his father and other family members arrested, and I hadn't read the story before, but he had apparently they walked this boy up to the door and asked him to knock on the door so they could see if anybody else was home. So yeah, thoughts Jenny, Rebecca,

I think the word ringing in my head is asylum and that this young boy and his family, so many others have already tried to seek out a safer place only to be met with such violence and harm

I think I feel this kind of disbelief that we live in a country where this is what happens in broad daylight and that the conversation we're having as a country is all these ways to justify that any of this is legitimate or humane. And then I feel like I shouldn't be surprised, and I wonder if this is what my ancestors felt like in the 1950s or the 1920s or the 1860s. This kind of way that this is woven into the fabric of American life in a way that it never actually disappears. It just keeps reinventing it and reimagining itself and that every generation falls for that every time. And I don't know how to metabolize that. I can access it academically. I know enough history to know that. And if I try to think about what that felt like and why are we here again, why are we repeating this again? Why are we still doing this?

Danielle (14:04):

Yeah, I guess I used to think, and I think I've said this many times, I just keep repeating it, that some of this would disrupt the MAGA base. And we've even talked a bit together about Marjorie Taylor Green, but I saw a piece on the Atlantic, let me see if I can find the guy's name done by Yer Rosenberg, and it said, the biggest myth about Trump's base and why many believe it, the magma faithful, the MAGA faithful aren't deserting their leader. And it said in fact that it's like over 80% of the same Republican does support this immigration enforcement. They support what the action that happened in Venezuela, they support the hostile takeover, potential hostile takeover of Greenland.

(15:07):

And that some of the pushback we're hearing, but maybe you've heard it by Tucker Carlson or Marjorie Taylor Green is really politically motivated. So these folks can position themselves as successors to Trump because Trump has such a, they're saying Trump has a firm grip on the Republican party. And I think I want to push back and be like, well, we're all individuals making choices at the same time. And if you have 85% of an entire voting block saying, I'm okay with this, then why would it stop? Like you said, Rebecca, there's no reason this is going to stop. We can't wait. These people are not changing their minds now. They can see the violence. If you grew up in California and someone was in Alabama and there was a lynching in Alabama or vice versa, or the Chinese were attacked in California, et cetera, you might not know about it. That's not what's happening right now. There's freedom of information. There's social media. We can see the images and with the images, people are still saying, yeah, I'm okay with that. I think that's what strikes me.

Rebecca (16:27):

And again, I think if you look back historically, it's like we've been okay with this as a country for a very long time, since at the inception of the country, there is a category of people that are three fifths a human, and therefore not entitled to the rights listed under the constitution. We've been okay with this since there was such a thing as the United States of America. And that means that Donald Trump is not the problem. He is the symptom of a problem. He's the current forward face of a problem that has been with us since the very beginning, and that the church in America has sanctioned as biblically acceptable from the very beginning.

Which is crazy, right? But the notion that somehow God or any version of him, it is on the side of this, it is absurd. It just is. Yeah. But again, that's the argument the church has put forth the inception since the colonies, since before there was a United States. The church has put forward the notion that God is on the side of this. And it was a lie then and it is a lie now, but it's one that this country is used to swallowing.

Jenny (19:36):

I am thinking about how almost a year ago now, Sean and I were doing sort of a civil rights circuit. We did Memphis and Birmingham and Montgomery and I, Selma, and then we just so happened as we kind of went through that circuit, we just so happened to be in the major cities that ice rates were happening in Nashville, in Houston, in San Antonio, and we were on the same street the day that children were being ziptied and taken from their court hearings in San Antonio. And we went from there to go visit family who grew me up in a Christian tradition to follow a man who proclaimed good news for the immigrant and for the poor. And I was crying talking about what we had witnessed, what we had physically experienced, not what we had just seen on social media, on news, what we had tangibly seen, the people we talked to and one of these family members.

(21:07):

The next thing they said was, I think I just saw a raindrop and they were so dissociated and disconnected from themselves, from me, from our relational field, from what was going on that I was just like, if we cannot have this conversation, what hope is there? Where do we put our hope in? How, again, I think a big part of why I am so passionate about this is because of the person that I grew up learning Jesus was and trying to emulate that. And then to see this fracture in those that call themselves Christians and Jesus followers unwilling to even engage what's going on right now. It is so distressing. And I honestly, yeah, like you're saying, I don't think it's new though. I think that somehow this marriage of Christianity and militarization and conquest has been a powerful force, I think really since Constantine and there's, I dunno what it will take to reckon with that.

Danielle (22:37):

I mean, clearly I think Jenny, you point, information is not enough for people to change even what we could call facts. We can't agree on those facts. So if you take the church scene, I watched it. I actually watched it live last weekend. I was interested in it and I saw him say, we don't know where we're going. His car, his jeep actually got caught in a lot of snow and they were pushing it out. They got in, they were very clear like, Hey, we're just here observing this protest. We're here watching. And they watched and they went, and he has it on Instagram and TikTok, I think Don goes up to the pastor that's there, not the pastor that's associated with ice. And the pastor puts his hand on Don and starts to push him and Don says, do not touch me. Don't touch me.

(23:34):

Don't push me. I'm not invading your space. But I think that's the visceral response. It's like, let me push away this reality. In my mind, that's the actual thing happening. It is not that Don is seen as a person in that moment. I don't believe that. I don't believe he saw him as a person. I think it was more as I thought about it and I got the chills thinking about it. It's like, let me just push away whatever reality you're walking in with, I want nothing to do with it. And I mean, what really struck me about that too was it was black clergymen in there protesting for Renee. Good. I'm like, oh, this is what it is. It's black independent media showing up and doing this reporting. Yeah, it was very interesting. Rebecca, did you watch any of that?

Rebecca 24:34):

I did. And I saw a clip of a prisoner walking out of the building saying, I just came here to worship God, and that got disrupted and I'm upset about It was the gist. I mean, that's my paraphrase. But again, I don't know what has to happen to a person, to a people theologically, psychologically, emotionally, physiologically for you to not see, not believe, not metabolize, not feel what you're actually witnessing. And the answer to that is rather scary to me. What you have to believe is true about the God that you claim to serve what you have to believe is true about the people that he created in order to turn a blind eye to what you're not only witnessing but actually participating in to the extent that omission or silence or inaction is actually participation. It is a little scary to me what that means about the American church in this moment. I don't know what to say about that.

Jenny (27:52):

I was going to say last Sunday we had the opportunity to go to Ebenezer Baptist, which was the church that MLK was a pastor of. Did we talk about that on here? Not really,

(28:07):

Yeah. And Warnock gave the sermon for the day and it ended with Renee good's face up on the screen where the worship music usually shows and him talking about what it means to account the cost in this moment and to stay the course in this battle that we're in. That's very real and very serious. And to be in that place in MLK's old church on the week that Renee Goode was murdered, it just was both kind of just a reality check, but also encouraging to just be as scary and loud and big and gaslighting as all of this is. We've been to 44 states in the last two years, and there are amazing people in every single one of them doing incredible things and looking at the community in Minneapolis with their whistles, with their defiance, with their sledding competitions, just to see the various ways in which defiance and resistance is taking place. I feel like that has been something that has been giving me a thread of hope in the midst of everything.

Danielle (29:51):

Yeah, I think I was thinking that yesterday. There's so much piled up trauma and so many people that are disrupted by it, as they should be, and so much, I was talking to someone the other day and they're like, I'm anxious. I'm like, I'm anxious too. How could you not be anxious even if you're kind of oblivious? I feel like the waves just travel. But I mean, not to be trite, but I think I listen to Jamar Tse a lot and he was talking about one way to combat despair is building your community has to hold hope. You can't do it by yourself. So taking action or reflection or being with other people or talking it out or showing emotion. I think those are real things. And I dunno, I guess coming back to therapy, just kind of that ingrained sense of you can't take an action to get out of your situation or change things, but I don't know where I learned that or picked that up, but I think that taking an action when you feel like shit actually does help. It's going on a walk or going for a run, and I don't know the chemistry to this, maybe you know it more than me, but something starts busting loose in the chemistry, and even if it doesn't last forever, it changes for a minute.

Don't know. Do you know what changes or what the chemistry is for that?

Jenny (31:30):

Yeah. Well, I think that there are few things more distressing for our nervous system than immobility. So at least when we are protesting or we're running or we're lifting weights or we're doing something, it's letting our body feel that sympathetic fight flight energy that's like, well, at least I can do something and I might not be able to escape this situation. I might not be able to change it, but I can feel a little bit more movement in my own body to figure out how I can maneuver in and through it.

(32:14):

And so even that, as we do that, when we do move or exercise, we're releasing a lot of adrenaline and cortisol. We're working that through our system, and we're also producing a lot of natural opiates and feel good chemicals. So there is something very real and physiological to lately I've been just needing to go do the stairs machine at the gym, and I've just been like, I need to walk up a mountain and feel my body be able to do that. And yeah, it doesn't last forever, but maybe for a couple hours afterwards I'm like, okay, I feel good enough to stay in this and not check out. And I had a friend send me something today that was talking about how a lot of people think they're overwhelmed and we are going through something that's overwhelming. And a lot of that overwhelm is actually that we're taking in so much and we're not doing anything with it.

(33:21):

And so whether or not what you do changes or fixes it, you actually need some way to let your body process the adrenaline, the stress, the cortisol, and all of those things. And that, I think helps our body. If we look at cultures across the globe when they've been preparing for war, look at the haka and these dances that are like, they're not in it. They're not fighting the war, but they're doing something to let their bodies feel in connection with other bodies to feel their strength and to get prepared for whatever they need to be prepared for.

Danielle (33:59):

Right. Yeah. That's so cool. Every time I watch that dance, I'm like, oh, I wish I had that. But I feel like the Seahawks kind of provide that, just that yelling or screaming or whatever.

Jenny (34:18):

Totally. Or going on a roller coaster. There's not a lot of places we have permission to just scream. I do in the car a lot while I'm driving. I'll just be like, and it really helped a lot.

Danielle (34:34):

It's so interesting how we can go from that intense story though, hit the church stuff and then the conversation can come back to here. But I do think that's a reflection of how we kind of have to approach the moment too. There's no way to metabolize all the stuff in the article. It's deeply overwhelming. One aspect probably couldn't be metabolized in a day. I dunno. Does that make sense?

Yeah. How are you looking at the next week then, Jenny, as you think of that, even that kind of structure we went through, how do you imagine even the next week? It's hard to imagine the next week. I feel like we never know what's going to happen.

Jenny (35:15):

I know I feel very grateful that we're in a place where we have really good friends and community and support. So this week looks like dinners with our friends, engaging what's going on. We're very close to this really local bookstore that gets letters from folks in prison about what kind of book they want. And then you go find the book and you pack it and you mail it to them. What

(35:52):

So we're going to volunteer in there and send some books to folks in prison and just do things. And it's not changing everything, but I believe that if everybody focused on doing the right thing that was right in front of them, we would have a much different world and a less associated apathetic world. I plan on going to the gym a lot and working out, getting buff, working out my running may or may not be disrupting some more standup open mic comedy nights. We'll see. Post

Speaker 1 (36:31):

What about you? What's your week look like?

Danielle (36:39):

I tend to set, I tell myself I love the weekends because Saturdays and Sundays are my days full days off. So I tend to tell myself, oh, I can't wait for that. But then in the week I tell myself, these might seem silly, but I say, oh man, there's so much hard stuff. But then I tell myself, I don't want to rush a day because I really like to see my kids. So then each day I think, well, I have work that's cool. I have these other tasks. And then when I get outside of work, I look forward, I try to tell myself, oh, I'm going to eat something I really like. I'm going to give my kid a hug. I'm going to hear about their day.

(37:16):

I like to lay flat on my back after work, even before I eat, just to kind of reset. I look forward to that moment. Seems silly. I like that at noon every day. Usually reserve my time to work out. And even if I don't push myself hard, I go just to hug the people. And sometimes I get there early and I sit in a corner and they're like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm mentally warming up. So those are the kind of things, it sounds mundane, but I need really basic, dependable rhythms. I know I can execute.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guess what? I really have to go to the bathroom.

 

 

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.