Season 6, Episode 5: Jenny Mcgrath on Reality and Therapy - How do we get through this?

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):

I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHC

I am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.

I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!

I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias’ and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.

I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!

Danielle (00:28):

Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations based in what our reality is, faith, race, justice, gender in the church, therapy, all matter of things considered just exploring this topic of reality. Hey, I'm having this regular podcast co-host. Her name is Jenny McGrath. She's an M-A-C-P-L-M-H-C. She's dope. She's a licensed mental health counselor, a somatic experiencing practitioner, certified yoga teacher, and an approved supervisor in the state of Washington. She spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. And she's come to see that bodies are so important and she believes that by approaching the body with curiosity, we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens. So I hope you're as thrilled as me to have such an amazing co-host join me. Yeah, we're going to talk about reality and therapy. We're just jumping in. Jenny and I are both writing books.

Jenny, I think it's funny that we are good friends and we see each other when we're around each other, but then if not, we're always trading reels and often they're like parodies on real life. Funny things about real life that are happening, which I've been, the theme of my book is called Splitting, and I know you write about purity culture, and a part of that I think really has to do with what is our reality and how is it formed? And then that shapes what we do, how we act, how we behave in the world, how we relate to each other. So any thoughts on that? On Thursday, September 25th,

Jenny (02:17):

I mean, as you named that, I think 10 minutes before this started, I sent you a reel. There was a comedian singing Why She Doesn't Go to Therapy, and it says, all my friends that go to therapy are mean to me, and you don't have boundaries. You're just being an asshole. And it was good, but it was also existential. This was what seems to me a white woman. And I do think as a white woman who's a therapist, I feel existential a lot about the work I do in therapy and in healing spaces, and how we do this in a way that doesn't promote this hyper individualistic reality. And this idea that everything I see and everything I think is the way that it is, how do I stay open to more of a communal or collective way of knowing? And I think that that's a challenging thing. So that's something that comes to mind for me as you bring up Instagram reels.

Danielle (03:26):

Oh man, I have so many thoughts on that that I wasn't thinking before you said it, but I think they were all locked in a vault, been unleashed. No, seriously. You come from your own position in the world. Talk about your position and how did you come to that point of seeing more of a collective mindset or reality point of view?

Jenny (03:47):

I mean, honestly, I think a big part has been knowing you and working with you and knowing that I think we've had conversations over the years of both the privilege and the detriment that happens in a lot of white therapeutic spaces that say you just need detach from your family, from your community, from those who have harmed you. And I want to be very, very clear and very careful that obviously I do think that there are situations we need to extract ourselves from and remove ourselves from. And I think that can become disabling for bodies to, I've been having this thing play in my head lately where I'm like, are you healed? Or have you just cut off everyone that triggers you?

Yeah, and I saw another, speaking of meme, it was like, I treat my trauma like Trump treats tariffs. I just implement boundaries arbitrarily, and they harm everyone.

And so I think it's, there is a certain privilege that comes with being able to say, I'm just going to step away. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do my healing journey. And I think there is a detriment to that and there's a loss. And I think we have co-evolved to be in community and to tell stories and to share reality and to hold reality in the tension of our space. I think about it as we each have a different lens. There's no objective reality, but if I can be open to your lens and you can be open to my lens, then we actually have two lenses, and then if we have five lenses or 10 lenses, we can have a much fuller picture of where we are rather than seeing the world through the really monochromatic white, patriarchal, Christian nationalist lens that we've been maybe conditioned, or at least I was conditioned to see the world through.

Danielle (06:10):

Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, I know we've talked about this so many times, and I think it just feels so present right now, especially as every moment it feels like every day. If you watch the news, if you don't take a break, I think you can be jarred at any moment or dissociated at any moment, or traumatized at any moment, or maybe feel a bit of joy too when someone says a smack down on your side of the issue. And I think that when we get in that mode of constantly being jarred and then we try to come into a healing space, it's like how do we determine then what is actually healing for us? What is actually good? What is actually wise? And I agree, I think if we're in a rhythm of being on our own, and I'm not criticizing, I mean, I get lonely and I'm part of a group, so I'm not speaking to loneliness particularly, but I'm speaking to the idea that no one else has input in your life, even the kind of input you may not agree with, but no one else is allowed to speak to you.

(07:15):

When I get in those spaces, it's not that I just feel lonely, I don't feel any hope. I don't feel any movement or any possibility because let's say that this ends tomorrow, that authoritarian regime magically ends. It's healed tomorrow. We're going to have to look at all of our people in our lives and face them and decide what we're going to do. I mean, that's what I think about a lot. At the end of the day, I might sit next to someone that hates me or that I perhaps might have rage and anger towards them. What are we going to do? So I don't know, when you talk about the different lenses, I'm not sure how that all mixes together. I don't have an answer, basically. Shoot.

Jenny (08:05):

But I also think that that's part of maybe how we hold reality is maybe it is more about presence and being with what is, rather than having an answer, I think I become more and more skeptical of anyone who says they have an answer for anything.

Danielle (08:31):

So I mean, there was this guy that recently passed away, and there was, on one hand I wanted to really talk about it, and on the other hand, I didn't want to talk about it because it took up so much space. And I feel that even as we start to talk about how do we form healing spaces in therapy with that, I think, what did you call it that, what kind of lens did you say? It was like a monochromatic lens. How do we talk about that without centering it?

Jenny (09:08):

I think one thing that comes to mind is holding it in context of all of the other deaths that have not taken up that space. And the social studies phrase, what are the conditions of possibility that have enabled this death to create church services happening that have taken over people's social media, people who have been silent about lots of different deaths in the last year or five years, all of a sudden can't help but become really vigilant about talking about this. I think for me, it helps to zoom back and go, how come? Why is this so prevalent? Why is this so loud? What is this illuminating or what is this unearthing about? What's already been here?

So I grew up in very fundamentalist, white evangelical Christianity. And from the time I was eight, nine years old, I had in me messages instilled of martyrdom, whether that was a message that I should be a martyr, or whether that was a message that Christians were already being martyred, whether that was the war against Christmas with Starbucks cups or not having prayers happen at school. And these things where I grew up in this world where we were supposed to be prominent, we were supposed to be prevalent, we were supposed to be protected. And whenever there was any challenge to that from bodies that weren't white or straight or Christian or American, there became this very real frenzy around martyrdom. And I think on an interpersonal level and on a collective level, someone who plays the victim will always hold the most power in the relational dynamic. And so I think that this moment was a very useful moment to that psyche and that reality of seeing the world as a victim, as a martyr, as being persecuted, regardless of the fact that evangelical Christians are the strongest floating block in our nation. They have incredible privilege when it comes to a lot of education, marriage inequality, things like that, that are from the long lineage of Christian nationalism in our country.

Danielle (12:15):

So then how do you work with folks that are coming in with that lens, and what's the responsibility of our field? I know you and I can't answer that question necessarily, but we can just say from our own experience what that's like. Are you willing to share a little bit of that?

What would I say? My client load is mixed and so do a lot of work, but just because it's mixed doesn't mean that I'm not currently undoing that process in myself as well. So I think just as much as therapy is about whoever comes into my office or shows up in the zoom room or even a group or a teaching we've been a part of, I think it's, well, I mean we say this co-created, but I actually mean it means I have to keep learning. I have to keep trying to be in my body. And what I mean by that is I was talking to my friend Phil yesterday, and he was like, Danielle, are you tracking your body sensations? And he's like, I just challenge you to do that today. And I was like, man, that that's a good reminder. So I think one way I try to come with clients is from the perspective of I don't know it all.

(13:38):

I only know what I'm feeling and sensing in this moment, and I have that to offer along with other things I've studied, of course. But just because the person sitting with me doesn't have a degree or the group and the people, doesn't mean they don't know just as much as me. It's just another form of maybe learning or knowing or presence and healing. And then we're figuring that out together. I see that as one way of undoing, undoing this. I know everything point of view, which I kind of felt like I had to have when I came out of grad school. Yeah,

Jenny (14:14):

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I feel similar and I think often think in quotes. And so one of my favorite quotes is by Simone Devo, and she says, without a doubt, it is always more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one's liberation. And so I am consistently asking, where is my blind bondage? Who are the people in my life that will show me where my blind bondage is? Who are the people that will hold me accountable to my own liberation? And for me as a therapist, I work primarily with white folks who grew up in fundamental Christianity. And over 10 years of doing that work, I think that a primary part of my work is radical agency

(15:13):

Because I think that particularly white bodies maintain privilege by abdicating our agency and by being compliant with the systems that give us power and give us privilege. And so I think for me, my ethic is how do I help clients come into contact with their radical agency? And so a big part of that that I think is important is consent. And so if someone is coming to work with me, it's part of my disclosure form, it's part of my intake to say, I don't think our mental health concerns or our somatic concerns exist in a bubble. They are deeply impacted by the systems we move through. And so while we'll be engaging your individual body, we're also going to be engaging the collective structures. And I've had people say, no, I don't want to do that work. And I say, great, there are other lovely therapists that will work with you and be a better fit. That's just not the type of therapy I do. That's not within my scope of practice to only focus on the individual, because for me, that's unethical.

Danielle (16:23):

Oh, that's cool. I like that, Jenny. I think that a lot. I was consulting recently, and we're just talking about this current moment, and I'll just say from my point of view that even in my family, I noticed when something had gone on locally, we have some organizing that we do and we had some warnings go out. And I noticed even in my own family, the heightened anxiety, the alert, and one of the things we had to do was we took turns driving around just making sure everybody's safe and everybody was safe. And I came down and at the point where people began to lower anxiety, and we're talking about just regular business owners, regular people out there, we're not even talking about immigrants, quote migrants. We're just talking about people out there that don't want to encounter force. You could feel the anxiety just lower now that we went the parking lot's clear, no one's here, we're safe. This isn't happening, not today. I'm not saying it won't happen here in our area of the country, but it's not happening today. And I realized in consultation later about clients and stuff that things are going to, but the clinician I was consulting with just said to me, she said to me, just for your family, she's like, that anxiety is warranted. That's real. You're supposed to feel anxious. There's no way you can take that away for those people and you shouldn't.

(18:02):

And so just kind of learning, reminding myself, when you go to grad school, when you study therapy and psychology, there's pathological, there's diagnoses, all these things, but then there's some things like we just can't take away. They're part of the experience. They need to be there. They're part of the warning. And there's a reason why when you get out and do something practical for a community, the anxiety lowers. And I think that just gave me a lot of insight, not just for my client, but for my family and for myself. And there's some calm, not because I'm anxious, but because, oh, I'm not crazy. I'm not just making this up. And so I do think that speaks to how the system is creating trauma and it is powerless. What can we do against the big bad authorities? And we can do things, we can connect, we can be with people, but at some level, that baseline of anxiety is going to be there because it's warranted. That's how I think of it.

What do we do? Well, we sat at home, we watched sports. We went to Best Buy, and this is not every, we had some privilege. We bought an extra controller to play Mario World or whatever it was. I don't remember, but I was like, I'm not playing on that little controller. They wanted me to hold. I was like, I need a real controller. I'm old. I need to be able to feel it in my hands. Just silly stuff. Just didn't put pressure on the kids to do homework. Not a pressure to clean the house, just to just exist. Just be, yeah. What about you? What do you do when you encounter either anxiety from trauma like that or the systemic pressure maybe to even conform to whiteness or privilege in that moment?

Jenny (20:12):

I typically need to move my body in some way, whether that's to take my dog on a very long walk or whether that's just to roll around on a dance floor or maybe do a yoga practice. I become aware of how my body is holding that, and I think about how emotions are just energy in motion. And so if we don't give them motion and expression, it becomes like a battery pack in our nervous system. And so I can feel that if I haven't been able to move and to express whatever my body needs to express, and often I don't even know cognitively what my body needs to express, but I've grown in trust that my body knows, and I say, I think the sillier we look the better it usually feels. I just saw this lovely post the other day, a movement person did where they, we talk a lot about brainwashing, but we don't talk a lot about body washing, and we are so conditioned to only move our body in certain ways. And because our body is not different than our brain, I think that the more free we feel in our actual physical body to our own ability, the more that can actually create a little bit more mobility in how we see reality and how we engage with it.

Danielle (21:44):

So take that back to the beginning where you started talking about how when you have clients come in, you're like, yo, we're going to address this systemically and collectively. What do you do with folks when they have that kind of energy and you guys are working through it and it's like, oh, it's like maybe that's collective energy. What do you do? Yeah,

Jenny (22:02):

Yeah. I ask my clients probably annoying amount of times each session, what do you notice right now? And then I follow their body. So if their body says like, oh, I feel a lot of tension in my gut instead of alleviating that, I go, okay, great. Can you actually exaggerate that tension a little bit and see what happens? See if that tension wants to come out in a snarl or a growl, or maybe you want to curl up in a ball and I just follow whatever the impulses of their body are. Or if they say like, oh, I feel a lot in my shoulders. I'm like, great. Do you want to go push against a wall or push against the floor or punch a pillow and let your body actually get some movement into those spaces that you're sensing?

Well, as I said, I'm very skeptical about individual work, even though I do it, I don't think is all that. I think it is both necessary and not that helpful for the collective

(23:21):

Because it is individual. And so I actually do think we need collective spaces of moving and expressing and being in our bodies. I think our ancestors knew this for before Christian supremacy and then white supremacy and then capitalistic supremacy eradicated how we've evolved to move in our and collectively. That being said, I do think that the more we become aware of how our body is constrained and how we've been socialized, especially I think for anybody, but for me, I'll speak to white bodies, we aren't always conscious. We take for granted whiteness and how it affects our bodies. So the first time I'm asking a white person, especially maybe a white woman to look pissed, that's going to be probably really scary because socially we are not actually allowed to be pissed. We're allowed to be dams, souls, and we're allowed to freak out, but we're not actually allowed to be strong and be powerful and be angry. And so I do believe that in that work of individual liberation and freedom, it actually helps us resist those roles and those performances of white womanhood that then perpetuate collective harm.

Danielle (24:49):

I can see how that shift would really impact the way one person both connects with their neighbor or a different person, even same race or same culture, and would impact not only how they relate and connect to that person, but also just how they might love.

Jenny (25:10):

Yeah, because I think it is dangerous. It is disproportionately dangerous to oppressed bodies when white women aren't holding our own anger because I think that there is a deferral to the police, to governing bodies to different authorities when a white woman is actually pissed, rather than saying like, Hey, you did this and it pissed me off, let's work it out here. Oftentimes that ends up actually getting policed to authorities that then disproportionately harm oppressed bodies. And so I think it is essential for white women to grow our capacity to bear. No, I actually am pissed and I can acknowledge that and engage that and be with it in myself.

I do. I do actually. So I have been working on a book for the last six years in which I'm looking at the socialization of young white women in purity culture and this political moment of Invisible children, which was this documentary style film that manipulated an entire generation of young white women to get involved in missions or development. And so as part of my research, I interviewed many white women who grew up in purity culture and became missionaries. And there were some that maybe still had good relations with organizations such as invisible children and felt threatened or maybe pissed that I was inquiring into this. And so instead of engaging and talking about the emotions that were coming up, they went straight to interrogating my IRB and then went straight to is this research ethical? Even though I could tell they were really just angry and upset about what I was interrogating, and I would've much rather we could have that conversation than this quick sense of I'm going to go to the structures while I can maintain feeling like this demure pleasantness of white womanhood, even though I could feel the energy. And that's an example for me, and I have white privilege, and so there was still threat there, but it was not probably to the same degree that it could be if I didn't hold that same power and privilege that I do.

Scared. I felt really scared and I had done everything ethically. I had hired my own IRB to oversee my research. I did their protocol and still I felt the wielding of power and the sense of I can move the system to act against you if I don't like what you're doing. And so it was really, really scary. And then I had to move my anxiety and my body and I had to shake because what I do often when I get scared and I had to let my body discharge that adrenaline and that cortisol, and then I was able to back to myself and respond and say, it sounds like you have some concerns, and being interviewed is totally optional so you don't have to do it. And then I never heard back from 'em, and so it was just helpful for me to get to move that through. Even in part of that process,

Danielle (29:27):

Jenny, is that energy still in you now or is it gong?

Jenny (29:30):

Oh yeah, totally. I can feel my body vibrating and even there's that fear of like, oh shit, what's going to happen if I talk about this? I can feel the silencing

The demand to be small and not to expose it because then I'm open to fill in the blank. And so I can feel the sense of how power wants to keep us from speaking truth to power and to those that wield it.

Danielle (30:02):

Man, I want to swear so bad, motherfucker. I'm not surprised. But I do think I continue to allow myself to be shocked. And I think the thing is, I know this can happen. I know it will happen. I think both you and I are writing on topics that are very interrogate this moment in a very particular way that's threatening. And so although I'm not surprised, I am allowing myself to continually be shocked, not I want to re-traumatize myself, but I don't want to lose the feeling of there might be somebody good out there, this might be well received. And also I want to maintain that feeling of like, man, I really love my friend. I believe in her. And I think allowing myself to kind of hold all those things kind of just allows me to wake up for the moment versus just numbing out to it. Man,

So vicious. It's so vicious because you aren't taking their money, you aren't literally hurting them physically. You're not taking their power, and yet there's this full force. You've dedicated your life to this thing and they could take you out.

Jenny (31:19):

Yeah, and I think it's primarily because I am questioning white women's innocence and I think based on how race and gender work, a white woman's privilege and power comes from this presumed purity and innocence. And so if we start to disrupt that and go, actually, I'm human and I've done some shit and I've, I've caused harm and I will cause harm, and that's actually a really important part of me working out my humanity. Then I'm stepping out of the bounds of being protected under white patriarchy.

Danielle (32:06):

I feel like I learned, I feel like so much resonance with that. I've had many similar experiences, but one stands out where right after the election I talked with a friend of mine on the phone, and I don't remember if she is a white colleague from same grad school and said something like, oh, it's just a bummer. And we didn't really talk about it. And I was like, that's all you could say. I thought about that. And later I sent a really kind text saying, Hey, that really hurt my feelings. I don't know. It doesn't make sense why we haven't talked about it more. And then I didn't hear back. It just went silent. This is someone I'd known for seven years.

(32:45):

Then later I called and I was like, Hey, what's up? And they're like, I can't believe you would write that to me If I ever engage you again, I want to start here. Some other random place. I was just sat back and I was like, I'm not giving this any more energy at that time. I said that to myself and it was just like the complete collapse when I said, you hurt my feelings, the complete collapse. When I said, I don't understand this, can we talk about it? And then I went through this period this summer of just having this feeling. I don't want to be at odds with people. So I left this person a voicemail saying, Hey man, can we talk? I haven't heard back from them, but I feel like I did my part. But I'm just struck it even in down from the big view, like the 30,000 foot view or how that person wants to reign the system on you to even interpersonally, if I don't like what you said, I'm just going to remove my presence,

Jenny (33:51):

Which I think again, is so much of the epidemic of whiteness. And I think it then produces such a fragility that's like I don't actually know how to bear open conflict and disruption because I'm not practiced at it, and I just will escape every time someone calls me to accountability or says something I don't like. And we can't stay in that place of tension.

Yeah. Well, I think one is that I feel those tendencies so much in my own body, and I do think that we have capacity to metabolize them. And so I literally might say something like, great, could you let your body get up and run around the room or run in place? Or maybe you stay seated but you let your legs and your arms kick. And they think that if we even just let ourselves express I want to fight, or if I want to flee or I want to get away from this and we let our body do what we need to do, we can then come back to ourselves and have fuller access to our capacity. And again, sometimes I do think there are relationships or communities or things that we do need to step away from. And sometimes if we've only ever learned to say yes, we might go through a process where we swing to the other side and we just cut everyone out and then we get to learn how to have discernment and how to enter into relationships thoughtfully and how to know who are those people we will be investing in probably for a long time.

(35:43):

And so it's not denying that those impulses are there, but it's letting our bodies metabolize them and work through them. And it makes me think of res, menkin talks about dirty pain versus clean pain, and I think dirty pain is just like, this hurts. I'm going to avoid it. And just disconnect and dissociate clean pain is like this hurts and I'm going to press into it and I'm going to see what it can teach me and how I can grow into a stronger, more mature person through this process.

Danielle (36:16):

Man, that sounds like some good work you could do with somebody. I think the thing about therapy, coming back to what you said at the beginning is I think we want a quick answer. We want, we want to go to a retreat, we want to show up at the gym. In my case, I go to the gym often. We want to go somewhere, we want to feel like we did it, we accomplished it. And often at the gym, I can hear my coaches are saying just little steps. Every week and above doing lots of weight, it's showing up as much as you can, being consistent. And I kind of hear that in a little bit of what you're saying. It's not like getting to the end right away. It's tracking your body and the sensations and showing up for yourself even in that way.

Jenny (37:08):

And I think even like that, I love that analogy. I often say relationships are like muscles. They're only as strong as the ruptures that they can handle. And stronger muscles have had more and more and more and more ruptures. We build muscle through tearing and rebuilding. And I think that that's the same with relationship too. But if we've never torn, then we're so afraid of what's going to happen. If there is a rupture,

Danielle:

I don't know that we're going to heal that, but someone recently said the system is collapsing. It really is. It's coming down on itself. And I think really it's going to come down to the work that you talked about at the beginning, however people are choosing to see it. But one way you talked about it was that monochromatic lens and adding a lens, adding a lens. And I do think the challenge for all of us, even to form something new, whether that means new government, I don't know what it means, but just even a new way of being together set the government aside. It means really forming, adding lenses to ourselves. Jenny, I hope you're coming back to talk to me again.

It's okay. Where can they find your stuff? Tell me.

Jenny (38:42):

Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at indwell movement, and then my website is indwell movement.com. So find me at either of those places, email me, reach out, send a message, would love to connect.

Danielle (38:59):

Okay, cool. Well, that's a wrap on this episode. If you can share, download, subscribe, tune into what we're talking about. But more important, have a conversation with a friend, a colleague, a neighbor, challenge your therapist, challenge your family. Don't forget to keep talking. And at the end of the show notes are resources, just some resources. They aren't the end all, be all of resources, but I'm putting 'em in there because I want you to know it's important to do resourcing for ourselves. As always, thank you for joining us, and at the end of the podcast are notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.

 

 

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Kitsap County / Local Resources

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Salish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call Line Phone: 1‑888‑910‑0416

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Statewide & National Crisis Resources

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988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988) Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/ Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.

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Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/ Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.

Native & Strong Crisis Lifeline Dial 988 then press 4

Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Culturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.

Additional Helpful Tools & Tips

• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx

• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.

• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.