Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):

I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHC

I am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.

I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!

I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias’ and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.

I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!

Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in Counseling

Email: [email protected]

Phone:  +1.5104686137

Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.com

I have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.

By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me… 

 

 

 

 

Danielle (00:17):

Welcome to the Arise podcast, and as you know, we're continuing on the intersection of where our reality meets and today it's where our reality meets our resilience. And how do we define that? A lovely conversation. It's actually just part one. I'm thinking it's going to be multiple conversations. Jenny McGrath, LMHC, and Rebecca Wheeler, Walston. Join me again, look for their bios in the notes and tag along with us. I thought we could start by talking about what do we see as resilience in this moment and what do we see, maybe like I'm saying a lot now, what do we see as the ideal of that resilience and what is actually accessible to us? Because I think there's these great quotes from philosophers and our ancestors, but we don't know all their day-to-day life. What did it look like day to day? So I'm wondering, just kind of posing that for you all, what do you think about resilience? How does it intersect with this moment and how do we kind of ground ourselves in reality?

Rebecca (01:33):

Rebecca? Coffee helps. Coffee definitely helps. It does. I have coffee here.

(01:42):

Me too. I would probably try to start with something of a working definition of the word. One of the things that I think makes this moment difficult in terms of a sense of what's real and what's not is the way that our vocabulary is being co-opted or redefined without our permission. And things are being defined in ways that are not accurate or not grounded in reality. And I think that that's part of what feels disorienting in this moment. So I would love for us to just start with a definition of the word, and I'm guessing the three of us will have different versions of that.

(02:25):

So if I had to start, I would say that I used to think about resilience as sort of springing back to a starting point. You started in this place and then something knocked you off of where you started. And resilience is about making it back to the place that you were before you got knocked off of your path. And my definition of that word has shifted in recent years to a sense of resilience that is more about having come through some difficulty. I don't actually bounce back to where I started. I actually adopt a new normal new starting place that has integrated the lessons learned or the strengths or the skills developed for having gone through the process of facing something difficult.

Jenny, I love that. I feel like it reminds me of a conversation you and I had many moons ago, Rebecca, around what is flourishing and kind of these maybe idealistic ideas around something that isn't actually rooted in reality. And I love that that definition of resistance feels so committed to being in reality. And I am not going to erase everything I went through to try to get back to something, but I'm actually going to, my word is compost or use what I've gone through to bring me to where I am. Now, this will not surprise either of you. I think when I think of resilience, I think somatically and how we talk about a nervous system or a body and what allows resilience. And so one of the ways that that is talked about is through heart rate variability and our ability for our heart to speed up and slow down is one of the defining factors of our body's ability to stay resilient.

(04:42):

Can I come to a state of rest and I think about how rest is a privilege that not all bodies have. And so when I think about resilience in that way, it makes me think about how do I actually zoom out of resilience being about an individual body and how do we form kind of more of a collective sense of resilience where we are coworking to create a world where all bodies get to return to that level of safety and rest and comfort and aren't having to stay in a mode of vigilance. And so I see resilience almost as one of the directions that I'm wanting to move and not a place that we're at yet collectively. Collectively meaning who

Jenny (05:41):

I say collectively, I'm hoping for a world that does not exist yet where it gets to be all bodies, human and non-human, and the ways in which we allow ecosystems to rest, we allow a night sky to rest. We allow ourselves to become more in rhythm with the activation and deactivation that I think nature teaches us of more summer and winter and day and night and these rhythms that I think we're meant to flow in. But in a productive capitalistic society where lights are never turned off and energy is only ever thought about and how do we produce more or different energy, I'm like, how do we just stop producing energy and just take a nap? I'm really inspired by the nat ministry of just like rest actually is a really important part of resistance. And so I have these lofty ideals of what collective means while being aware that we are coming to that collective from very different places in our unresolved historical relational field that we're in.

I would say there's a lot I'd love about that, all of that. And I, dear use of the word lofty, I feel that word in this moment that causes me to consider the things that feel like they're out of reach. I think the one thing that I would probably add to what you said is I think you used the phrase like returning to a state of rest when you were talking about heart rate and body. And if we're talking about an individual ability to catch my breath and slow it down, I can track with you through the returning to something. But when we go from that individual to this collective space where I live in the hyphenated existence of the African American story, I don't have the sense of returning to something because African hyphen American people were born as a people group out of this horrific traumatic space called the transatlantic slave trade.

(08:15):

And so I don't know that our bodies have ever known a sense of rest on us soil. And I don't know that I would feel that that sense of rest on the continent either having been there several times, that sense of something happened in the transition from Africa to America, that I lost my africanness in such a way that doesn't feel like a place of rest. And sometimes we talk about it in terms of for certain people groups, land is connected to that sense of rest for Native Americans, for indigenous people, for certain Latin cultures. But for the African American person, there's not a connection to land. There's only maybe a connection to the water of the transatlantic slave trade. And then water is never at rest. It's always moving, right? So I stay with you and then I lose you and then I come back to you.

Danielle (09:25):

That feels like a normal part of healing. I stay with you, I lose you and then I come back to you. I think resilience for me has meant living in this family with my partner who's a first generation immigrant and then having kids and having to remind myself that my kids were raised by both of us with two wildly different perspectives even though we share culture. And so there's things that are taught, there's things that are learned that are very different lessons that I cannot be surprised about what might be a form of resilience for my child and what might be a struggle where there isn't groundwork there.

(10:22):

I remember when Luis came to the United States, his parents said to him, we'll see you in a couple weeks. And I used to think my young self, I was like, what does that mean? They don't think we're going to stay married or whatever. But his dad also told him, be careful up there, be careful. And if Luis were here to tell this story, he said it many times. He's like, I didn't come to the United States because I thought it was the best thing that could happen to me. I came to marry you, I came to be with you, but I didn't come here because it was the best thing to happen to me. When his family came up for the wedding, they were very explicit. We didn't come here, we're not in awe. They wanted to make sure people knew we're okay. And I know there's wildly different experiences on the spectrum of this, but I think about that a lot. And so resilience has looked really different for us.

(11:23):

I think it is forming that bond with people that came here because they needed work or a different kind of setting or change to people that are already here. And I think as you witness our culture now, handle what's happening with kidnappings, what's happening with moms, what's happening with people on the street, snatching people off the street. You see that in the last election there was a wide range of voters on our side on the Latinx Latina side, and there was a spectrum of thoughts on what would actually help our community. But now you're seeing that quickly contract and basically like, oh shit, that wasn't helpful. So I think my challenge to myself has been how do I stay? Part of resilience for me is how do I stay in contact with people that I love that don't share in the same view as humanity as me? And I think that's an exercise that our people have done for a long time.

Rebecca (12:38):

Say that last sentence one more time, Danielle.

Danielle (12:42):

Just like, how do I stay in contact with people that I love that don't share my view of humanity, that don't share the valuation of humanity? How do I stay in contact with them because I actually see them as human too. And I think that's been a part of our resiliency over many years in Latin America just due to constant interference from European governmental powers.

Rebecca (13:16):

That partly why I think I asked you to repeat that last sentence is because I think I disconnected for a minute and I want to be mindful of disconnecting over a sentence that is about staying connected to people who don't value the same things that I value or don't value or see humanity in the way that I see in humanity. And I'm super aware, part of the conversation that's happening in the black community in this moment, particularly with black women, is the idea that we're not going to step to the forefront in this one. We are culturally, collectively, consciously making a decision to check out. And so if you see any of this on social media, there's a sense of like we're standing around learning line dances from Beyonce about boots on the ground instead of actively engaging in this moment. And so I have some ambivalence about whether or not does that count as resilience, right?

(14:28):

And is it resilient in a way that's actually kind to us as a people? And I'm not sure if I have an answer to that yet. In my mind the jury is still out, right? There are things about black women stepping to the side that make me really nervous because that's not who we are. It's not historically who we have been. And I am concerned that what we're doing is cutting off parts of ourself. And at the same time, I can tell you that I have not watched a news program. I have not watched a single news recording of anything since November 2nd, 2024.

Danielle (15:13):

I can just feel the tension of all of our different viewpoints, not that we're in conflict with one another, but we're not exactly on the same page either. And not that we're not on the same team, but I can feel that pull. Anybody else feel that?

Rebecca (15:35):

Does it feel like, I would agree we're not on the same page and in some ways I don't expect that we would be because we're so different. But does that pull feel like an invitation to clash or does it feel like it is actually okay to not necessarily be on the same page?

Danielle (16:06):

Well, I think it feels both things. I think I feel okay with it because I know you all and I'm trying to practice that. And I also think I feel annoyed that we can't all be on the same page some sense of annoyance. But I don't know if that annoyance is from you all. I feel the annoyance. It feels like noise from the outside to me a bit. It is not you or Jenny, it's just a general annoyance with how hard this shit is.

Rebecca (16:45):

And I definitely feel like one of the things I think that happens around supremacy and whiteness on us soil is the larger narrative that we have to be at odds with one another that there isn't a capacity or a way that would allow us to differentiate and not villainize or demonize the person that you are or the community that you are differentiated from. And I think we haven't always had the space collectively to think about what does it mean to walk alongside, what does it mean to lock arms? What does it mean to pull resources even with someone that we're on the same team, but maybe not at the same vantage point.

Jenny (17:47):

I have two thoughts. Three, I guess I'm aware even my continual work around internalized white saviorism, that part of my ambivalence is like where do you each need me? Are we aligning with people or are we saying f you to people? And I can feel that within me and it takes so much work to come back to, I might actually have a third way that's different than both of you, and that gets to be okay too. But I'm aware that there is that tendency to step into over alignment out of this savior movement and mentality. So just wanted to name that that is there.

(18:41):

And as you were sharing Rebecca, the word that came to mind for me was orthodoxy. And I don't often think of white supremacy without thinking of Christian supremacy because they've been so interlocked for so long. And the idea that there are many faith traditions including the Jewish tradition that has a mid rash. And it's like we actually come to scripture and we argue about it because we have different viewpoints and that's beautiful and lovely because the word of God is living in all of us. And when orthodoxy came around, it's like, no, we have to be in 100% agreement of these theologies or these doctrines and that's what it means to be Christian. And then eventually I think that's what it means to be a white Christian. So yeah, I think for folks like myself who were immersed in that world growing up, it feels existentially terrifying because it's like if I don't align with the orthodoxy of whiteness or Christianity or capitalism, it viscerally feels like I am risking eternity in hell. And so I better just play it safe and agree with whatever my pastor tells me or whatever the next white Republican male tells me. And so I feel that the weight of what this mindset of orthodoxy has done,

Rebecca (20:21):

I'm like, I got to take a breath on that one because I got a lot of stuff going on internally. And I think, so my faith tradition has these sort of two parallels. There's this space that I grew up in was rooted in the black church experience and then also in college that introduction into that white evangelical parachurch space where all of that orthodoxy was very, very loud and a version of Christianity that was there is but one way to do all of these things and that one way looks like this. And if you're doing anything other than that, there's something wrong with what you're doing. And so for me, there are parts of me that can walk with you right through that orthodoxy door. And there's also this part of me where the black church experience was actually birthed in opposition to that orthodoxy, that same orthodoxy that said I was three fifths of a person, that same orthodoxy that said that my conversion to Christianity on earth did not change my status as an enslaved person.

(21:39):

And so I have this other faith tradition that is built around the notion that that orthodoxy is actually a perversion of authentic Christian expression. And so I have both of those things in my body right now going, and so that's just my reaction I think to what you said. I feel both of those things and there are times when I will say to my husband, Ooh, my evangelical illness is showing because I can feel it, like want to push back on this flexibility and this oxygen that is in the room through the black church experience that says I get to come as I am with no apology and no explanation, and Jesus will meet me wherever that is end of conversation, end debate.

Danielle (22:46):

I don't know. I had a lot of thoughts. They're all kind of mumbled together. I think we have a lot of privilege to have a conversation like this because when you leave a space like this that's curated with people, you've had relationships over a long time maybe had disagreements with or rubbed scratchy edges with. When you get out into the world, you encounter a lot of big feelings that are unprocessed and they don't have words and they have a lot of room for interpretation. So you're just getting hit, hit, hit, hit and the choices to engage, how do you honor that person and engage? You don't want to name their feelings, you don't want to take over interpreting them, but it feels in this moment that we're being invited to interpret one another's feelings a lot. But here we're putting language to that. I mean Jenny and I talked about it recently, but it turns into a lot of relational cutoffs.

(23:55):

I can't talk to you because X, I can't talk to you because X, I don't want to read your news article. And a lot of times they're like, Danielle, why did you read Charlie Kirk? And I was like, because I have family that was interested in it. I've been watching his videos for years because I wanted to understand what are they hearing, what's going on. Yeah, did it make me mad sometimes? Absolutely. Did I turn it off? Yeah, I still engage and then I swing and listen to the Midas touch or whatever just like these opposite ends and it gives me great joy to listen to something like that. But when we're out and about, if we're saying resiliency comes through connection to our culture and to one another, but then with all the big feelings you can feel just the formidable splits anywhere you go, the danger of speaking of what's unspeakable and you get in a room with people you agree with and then suddenly you can talk. And I don't know how many of us are in rooms where resilience is actually even required in a conversation.

Rebecca (25:15):

It makes me think about the idea that we don't have good sort of rules of engagement around how to engage someone that thinks differently than we do and we have to kind of create them on the fly. When you were talking Danielle about the things you choosing to read Charlie Kirk, or not choosing to listen to something that reflects your values or not, and the invitation in this moment or the demand that if someone thinks differently than me, it is just a straight cutoff. I'm not even willing to consider that there's any kind of veracity in your viewpoint whatsoever. And I think we don't have good theology, we don't have good vocabulary, we don't have good rules of engagement about when is it okay to say, actually, I'm going to choose not to engage you. And what are the reasons why we would do that that are good reasons, that are wise reasons that are kind reasons? And I think the country is in a debate about that and we don't always get the answer to those questions and because we don't get it right then there's just relational debris all over the floor.

Jenny (26:47):

I'm just thinking about, I am far from skilled or perfect at this by any means, but I feel like these last couple years I live in a van and one of the reasons that we decided to do that was that we would say, I think I know two things about every state, and they're probably both wrong. And I think for our own reasons, my husband and I don't like other people telling us what is true. We like to learn and discover and feel it in our own bodies. And so it's been really important for us to literally physically go to places and talk to people. And I think it has been a giant lesson for me on nuance and that nobody is all one thing. And often there's people that are on the completely opposite side of the aisle, but we actually look at the same issues and we have a problem with the issues. We just have heard very, very different ways of fixing or tending to those issues. And so I think often if we can come down to what are we fearing, what is happening, what is going on, we can kind of wrestle there a little bit more than jumping to, so what's the solution? And staying more in that dirt level.

(28:22):

And not always perfectly of course, but I think that's been one of the things in an age of the algorithm and social media, it is easy for me to have very broad views of what certain states or certain people groups or certain voting demographics are like. And then when you are face to face, you have to wrestle. And I love that when you said, Daniel, I see them as human. And it's like, oh yeah, it's so much easier to see someone as not human when I'm learning about them from a TikTok reel or from a news segment than when I'm sharing a meal with them and hearing about their story and how they've come to believe the things they've believed or wrestle with the things they're wrestling with.

Rebecca (29:14):

Two things. One, I think what you're talking about Jenny, is the value of proximity. The idea that I've stepped close to someone into their space, into their world with a posture of I'm going to just listen. I'm going to learn, I'm going to be curious. And in that curiosity, open handed and open-minded about all kinds of assumptions and presuppositions. And you're right, we don't do that a lot. The second thing that I was thinking when you mentioned getting into the dirt, I think you used the phrase like staying in the darker sort of edges of some of those hard conversations. That feels like a choice towards resiliency. To me, the idea that I will choose of my will to stay in the room, in the relationship, in the conversation long enough to wrestle long enough to learn something long enough to have my perspective challenged in a real way that makes me rethink the way I see something or the lens that I have on that particular subject.

(30:33):

And I don't think we could use more of that in this moment. I think probably our friendship, what started as a professional connection that has over the years developed into this friendship is about the choice to stay connected and the choice to stay in the conversation. I know when I first met you, we were going to do a seminar together and someone said, oh yeah, Jenny's getting ready to talk on something about white people. And I had 8,000 assumptions about what you were going to say and all kinds of opinions about my assumptions about what you're going to say. And I was like, well, I want to talk to her. I want to know what is she going to say? And really it was because if she says anything crazy, we right, we all have problems, me and you, right? And the graciousness with which you actually entered that conversation to go like, okay, I'm listening. What is it that you want to ask me? I think as part of why we're still friends, why we're still colleagues, why we still work together, is that invitation from you, that acceptance of that invitation from me. Can we wrestle? Can we box over this and come out the other side having learned something about ourselves and each other?

Jenny (32:10):

And I think part of that for me, what I have to do is reach for my lineage pre whiteness. And I have this podcast series that I love called Search for the Slavic Soul that has made me make more sense to myself. And there's this entire episode on why do Slavic people love to argue? And I'm like, oh, yes. And I think part of that has been me working out that place of white woman fragility that says, if someone questions my ideas or my values or my views, I need to disintegrate and I need to crumple. And so I'm actually so grateful for that time and for how we've continued to be able to say, I don't agree with that, and we can still be okay and we can still kind of navigate because of course we're probably going to see things differently based on our experiences.

Danielle (33:16):

That is exactly the problem though is because there's a lot of, not everybody, but there's a lot of folks that don't really have a sense of self or have a sense of their own body. So there's so much enmeshment with whoever they're with. So when then confronted and mesh, I mean merging, we're the same self. It adds protection. Think about it. We all do it. Sometimes I need to be people just like me. It's not bad. But if that sense of merging will cost you the ability to connect to someone different than you or that sees very different than you, and when they confront that, if they're quote alone physically or alone emotionally in that moment, they'll disappear or they'll cut you off or they'll go away or it comes out as violence. I believe it comes out as shootings as we could go on with the list of violent outcomes that kind of cut, that kind of separation happens. So I mean, I'm not like Jenny, that's awesome. And it doesn't feel that typical to me.

Rebecca (34:36):

What you just described to me, Daniel, I have been going like, isn't that whiteness though, the whole point, and I'm talking about whiteness, not the people who believe themselves to be white, to quote taishi quotes. The whole point of whiteness is this enmeshment of all these individual European countries and cultures and people into this one big blob that has no real face on it. And maybe that's where the fragility comes from. So I love when Jenny said, it makes me reach back into my ancestry pre whiteness, and I'm going, that needs to be on a t-shirt. Please put it on a t-shirt, a coffee mug, a hat, something. And so that's sort of Taishi Coates concept of the people who believe themselves to be white is a way to put into words this idea that that's not actually your story. It's not actually your ancestry.

(35:43):

It's not actually your lineage. It's the disruption and the eraser and the stealing of your lineage in exchange for access to power and privilege. And I do think it is this enmeshment, this collective enmeshment of an entire European continent. And perhaps you're right that that's where the fragility comes from. So when you try to extract a person or a people group out of that, I don't know who I am, if absent this label of whiteness, I don't know what that means by who I am now I'm talking like I know what I'm talking about. I'm not white, so let me shut up. Maybe that means Jenny, you could say if I misunderstood you misquoted, you misrepresented all

Jenny (36:31):

The No, no, I think yeah, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. And it also makes me go back to what you said about proximity. And I think that that is part of the design of whiteness, and even what you were saying about faith, and you can correct me, but my understanding is that those who could vote and those who could own property were Christian. And then when enslaved black people started converting to Christianity and saying, I can actually take pieces of this and I can own this and I can have this white enslavers had a conundrum because then they couldn't use the word Christian in the way that they used to justify chattel slavery and wealth disparity. So they created the word white, and so then it was then white people that could own property and could vote. And so what that did was also disable a class solidarity between lower socioeconomic white bodies and newly emancipated black bodies to say, no, we're not in this together struggling against those that own the highest wealth. I have this pseudo connection with bodies that hold wealth because of the color of my skin. And so then it removes both my proximity to my own body and my proximity to bodies that are probably in a similar struggle, very disproportionate and different than my own because I have white privilege. But it also then makes white bodies align with the system instead of co-conspirator with bodies working towards liberation.

Rebecca (38:32):

I do think that that's true. I think there's a lot of data historically about the intentional division that was driven between poor people in the colonies and wealthy people in the colonies. And I say people because I think the class stratification included enslaved Africans, free Africans, poor whites, native American people that were there as well. And so I think that there was a kind of diversity there in terms of race and ethnicity and nationality that was intentionally split and then reorganize along racial lines. The only thing that I would add on the Christian or the faith spectrum is that there's a book by Jamar TBE called The Color of Compromise. And one of the things that he talks about in that book is the religious debate that was happening when the colonies were being organized around if you proselytize your slave and they convert, then do you have to emancipate them?

(39:43):

Because in England, the religious law was that you could not enslave or in put a believer into servitude in any form, whether that's indentured servitude or slavery. Well, I got a problem with the premise, the idea that if you were not a Christian in medieval England, I could do whatever I wanted to. The premise is wrong in the first place. The thought that you could own or indenture a human to another human is problematic on its face. So I just want to name that the theological frame that they brought from England was already jacked, and then they superimposed it in the colonies and made a conscious decision at the House of Burgess, which is about a mile from where I'm sitting, made a conscious decision to decide that your conversion to Christianity does not impact any part of your life on earth. It only impacts your eternity. So all you did was by fire insurance, meaning that your eternity is now in heaven and not in hell, but on earth I can do whatever I want. And that split that perversion of the gospel at that moment to decide that the kingdom of God has nothing to do with what is happening on earth is something we're still living with today. Right? It's the reason why you have 90 some odd percent of evangelicals voting for all kinds of policies that absolutely violate every tenant of scripture in the Bible and probably every other holy book on the planet, and then still standing in their pulpit on Sunday morning and preaching that they represent God. It's ridiculous. It's offensive.

Danielle (41:38):

I just feel like this is proving my point. So I feel like other people may have said this, but who's kept talking about this exchange for whiteness? Bro, we're in the timeline where Jesus, their Jesus said yes to the devil. He's like, give me the power, give me the money, give me the bread. And if you want to come into their religion, you have to trade in how God actually made you for to say yes to that same temptation for power and money and whatever, and erase your face's. One comment. Second comment is this whole thing about not giving healthcare to poor families.

(42:20):

I hesitate to say this word, but I'm reminded of the story of the people that first came here from England, and I'm aware that they were starving at one point, and I'm aware that they actually ate off their own people, and that's partly how they survived. And it feels the same way to me, here, give us the power, give us the control, give us the money. And we're like, the fact is, is that cutting off healthcare for millions of Americans doesn't affect immigrants at all. They're not on those plans. It affects most poor whites and they have no problem doing it and then saying, come, give me your bread. Come give me your cheese. Come give me your vote. It's like a self flesh eating virus, and

(43:20):

I am almost speechless from it. There's this rumor that migrants have all the health insurance, and I know that's not true because Luis legally came here. He had paperwork, he was documented, got his green card, then got his citizenship, and even after citizenship to prove we could get health insurance, when he got off his job, we had to not only submit his passport, but his certificate that was proof of citizenship through the state of Washington, a very liberal state to get him on health insurance. So I know there's not 25 million immigrants in the country falsifying those records. That's just not happening. So I know that that's a lie from personal experience, but I also know that the point is, the point is the lie. The point is to tell you the lie and actually stab the person in the back that you're lying to. That just feels dark to me. I went off, sorry, that's kind of off the subject of resilience.

Rebecca (44:36):

No, I have two reactions to that. The first one is when we were talking just a few minutes ago about the exchange for power and privilege, it's actually a false invitation to a table that doesn't actually exist. That's what, to me is darkest about it. It's the promise of this carrot that you have no intention of ever delivering. And people have so bought into the lie so completely that it's like you didn't even stop to consider that, let alone the ability to actually see this is not actually an invitation to anything. So that is partly what I think about. And if you read the book, the Sum of Us, it actually talks about Sum, SUM, the sum of us. It actually talks about the cost, the economic cost of racism, and each chapter is about a different industry and how there were racist policies set up in that industry.

(45:49):

And basically the point the author makes is that at every turn, in order to subjugate and oppress a community of color, white people had to sacrifice something for themselves and oppress themselves and disenfranchise themselves in order to pull it off. And they did it anyway because essentially it is wealthy white, it's affluent white male that ends up with the power and the privilege, and everybody else is subjugated and oppressed. And that's a conversation. I don't understand it. The gaslighting is got to be astronomical and brilliant to convince an entire community of people to vote against themselves. So I'm over there with you on the limb, Danielle,

Jenny (47:16):

Yeah, I am thinking about Fox News and how most impoverished white communities, that is the only source of information that they have because there isn't proximity and there isn't a lot of other conversations. It is exactly what Tucker Carlson or all of these people are spewing. And I think fear is such a powerful tool, and honestly, I don't see it as that different than early indoctrination around hell and using that to capitulate people into the roles that the church wanted them. And so it's like things might be bad now, but there are going to be so much worse quote because of the racial fear mongering of immigrants, of folks of color, of these people coming to take your jobs that if you can work, people who are already struggling into such a frenzy of fear, I think they're going to do things drastically vote for Trump because they think he's going to save the economy because that's what they're hearing, regardless of if that is even remotely true, and regardless of the fact that most white bodies are more likely to be climate refugees than they are to be billionaire friends with

Rebecca (48:59):

So then what does resilience look like in the face of that kind of fearmongering?

Jenny (49:24):

This is maybe my nihilistic side. I don't know that things are going to get better before they get far worse. And I think that's where the resilience piece comes in. I was like, how do we hold on to our own humanity? How do we hold onto our communities? How do we hold onto hope in the reality that things will likely get worse and worse and worse before some type of reckoning or shift happens,

Rebecca

(50:23):

Yeah. There's actually, I saw an Instagram post a couple months ago, and I want to say it was Bruce Springsteen and he was just lamenting the erosion of art and culture and music in this moment that there's not art in the Oval Office, that there's not, and just his sense that art and music and those kinds of expressions, actually, I don't think he used the word defiance, but that's the sentiment that I walked away with. That is a way to amplify our humanity in a way that invites proximity to cultures and people that are different than you. This whole argument that we're having right now about whether this election of Bad Bunny makes any sense and the different sort of arguments about what the different sides that people have taken on that, it's hilarious. And then there's something about it that feels very real.

Danielle (51:31):

Yeah, I had someone told me, I'm not watching it because he's a demonic Marxist. I was like, can you be a Marxist and be in the entertainment industry anyway? Clearly, we're going to have to talk about this again. I wrote an essay for good faith media and I was just, I couldn't wrap it up. And they're like, that's okay. Don't wrap it up. It's not meant to be wrapped up. So maybe that's how our conversation is too. I dunno. Jenny, what are you thinking?

Jenny (52:13):

I have many thoughts, mostly because I just watched one battle after another last night, and I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I feel like it was a really, it's a very million trigger warnings piece of art that I think encapsulates so much of what we're talking about and sort of this transgenerational story of resilience and what does it mean whether that is my own children or other children in this world to lean into, this probably isn't going to end with me. I'm probably not going to fix this. So how do we continue to maybe push the ball forward in the midst of the struggle for future generations? And I think I'm grateful for this space. I think this is one of the ways that we maybe begin to practice and model what proximity and difference and resilience can look like. And it's probably not always going to be easy or there's going to be struggles that probably come even as we work on engaging this together. And I'm grateful that we get to engage this together.

Danielle (53:35):

Well, we can always continue our thoughts next week. That's right. Yeah, Rebecca. Okay, I'll be locked in, especially because I said it in the podcast.

Rebecca (53:48):

I know. I do agree with that. Jenny, I particularly agree having this conversation, the three of us intentionally staying in each other's lives, checking on each other, checking in with each other, all that feels like this sort of defiant intentional resilience, particularly in a moment in history where things that have been our traditional expression of resilience have been cut off like it In recent US history, any major change happened, usually started on the college campus with public protests and public outcry, and those avenues have been cut off. It is no longer safe to speak out on a college campus. People are losing their degrees, they're getting kicked out of colleges, they're getting expelled from colleges for teachers are getting fired for expressing viewpoints that are not in line with the majority culture at this moment. And so those traditional avenues of resilience, I think it was an intentional move to go after those spaces first to shut down what we would normally do to rally collectively to survive a moment. And so I think part of what feels hard in this moment is we're having to reinvent them. And I think it's happening on a micro level because those are the avenues that we've been left with, is this sort of micro way to be resistant and to be resilient.

Danielle (55:31):

As you can see, we didn't finish our conversation this round, so check out the next episode. After this, we'll be wrapping up this conversation or at least continuing it. And at the end in the notes, their resources, I encourage you to connect with community, have conversations, give someone a hug that you trust and love and care for, and looking forward to having you join us.

Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health Resources

If you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.
This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.

Kitsap County / Local Resources

ResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416
Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416
Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715
Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416
Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793
Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.

Statewide & National Crisis Resources

ResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511
Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276
Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4
Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.

Additional Helpful Tools & Tips

• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx
• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.
• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.