Vanessa Ogaldez, LAMFT

SPECIALTIES:

Trauma

Couples Communication

Identity/Self Acceptance

https://www.dcctherapy.com/vanessa-ogaldez-lamft

From Her website: 

Maybe you have said something like, “What else can I do?” and it is possible you feel stuck or heartbroken because you can’t seem to connect with your partner as you want or used to. Whether or not you’re in a relationship and you have experienced trauma, hurtful arguments, or life changes that have brought on disconnection in your relationships, there is a sense of loss and heartache. You may find yourself in “robot mode” just going through your daily tasks, causing you to eventually disconnect from others, only to continue the cycle of miscommunication and loneliness. Perhaps you feel misunderstood, and you compensate by being helpful to everyone else while you yearn for true intimacy and friendships. Sometimes you feel there are so many experiences that have contributed to your pain and suffering that you don’t know where to start. There are Cultural norms you may feel that not everyone can understand and therapy is not one of those Cultural norms. I believe therapy can be a place of safety, healing, and self-discovery. As a therapist, my focus is to support you and your goals in life and relationships. I am committed to you building deep communications, connections and feeling secure in the ability to share your emotions.

Danielle (00:06):

Good morning. I just had the privilege and honor of interviewing my colleague, another therapist and mental health counselor in Chicago, Vanessa Les, and she is located right in the midst of Chicago with an eye and a view out of her office towards what's happening with ICE and immigration raids. I want to encourage you to listen into this episode of the Arise Podcast, firsthand witness accounts and what is it actually like to try to engage in a healing process when the trauma may be committed right before someone comes in the office. We know that's a possibility and right after they leave the office, not suggesting that it's right outside the door, but essentially that the world in which we are living is not as hopeful and as Mary as we would like to think, I am sad and deeply disturbed and also very hopeful that we share this power inside of ourselves.

(01:10):

It's based on nonviolence and care and love for neighbor, and that is why Vanessa and I connected. It's not because we're neighbors in the sense of I live next door to her in Chicago and she lives next door to me in Washington. We're neighbors because as Latinas in this world, we have a sense of great solidarity in this fight for ourselves, for our families, for our clients, to live in a world where there's freedom, expression, liberation, and a movement towards justice and away from systems and oppression that want to literally drag us into the pit of hell. We're here to say no. We're here to stand beside one another in solidarity and do that together. I hope you join us in this conversation and I hope you find your way to jump in and offer your actual physical resources, whether it's money, whether it's walking, whether it's calling a friend, whether it's paying for someone's mental health therapy, whether it's sharing a meal with someone, sharing a coffee with someone. All these things, they're just different kinds of things that we can do, and that's not an exhaustive list.

(02:28):

I love my neighbor. I even want to talk to the people that don't agree with me, and I believe Vanessa feels the same way. And so this episode means a lot to me. It's very important that we pay attention to what's happening and we ground ourselves in the reality and the experiences of black and brown bodies, and we don't attempt to make them prove over and over and over what we can actually see and investigate with our own eyes. Join in. Hey, welcome Vanessa. I've only met you once in person and we follow each other online, but part of the instigation for the conversation is a conversation about what is reality. So there's so many messages being thrown at us, so many things happening in the world regarding immigration, law enforcement, even mental health fields, and I've just been having conversations with different community members and activists and finding out how do you find yourself in reality what's happening. I just first would love to hear who you are, where you're at, where you're coming from, and then we can go from there.

Vanessa (03:41):

Okay. Well, my name is Vanessa Valez. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. Before becoming a therapist five years ago through my license, I worked in nonprofit for over 20 years, working with families and community and addressing what is the need and what is the problem and how can we all get together. Been involved with different movements and nonprofit organizations focusing on the community in Humbolt Park and Logan Square in the inner city of Chicago. My parents are longtime activists and they've been instrumental in teaching me how to work in community and be part of community and to be empathetic and thoughtful and caring and feeling like what happens to me happens to us and what happens to us happens to me. So that's kind of the values that I come from and have always felt that were true. I'm a mom of three and my husband and I have been together for 29 years, so since we were teenagers.

Thank you. But yeah, so that's a lot of just in general who I am and culturally, I come from an Afro Latina culture. I am a Puerto Rican born here, well born in New York where my family was from and they migrated from Puerto Rico, my grandparents did. And in our culture, we are African, we are indigenous, and my dad is Puerto Rican and Native American. So there's a lot in here that I am a hundred percent all of it. So I think that's the view and experience that I come from is knowing who I am and my ancestors who are very important to me.

Danielle (06:04):

I mean, that encompasses so much of what I think the battle is over who gets to be American and who doesn't. Right? Yeah, definitely. From your position in your job and you're in Chicago right on the ground, I think a lot of people are wondering what's really happening? What are you seeing? What's true? Can you speak to that a little bit?

Vanessa (06:32):

Yeah. What's really happening here is, I don't know, it's like what's really happening here? People are really scared. People are really scared. Families that are black and brown, families that are in low income situations, families that have visas, families that have green cards, families that are undocumented, all of us are really scared and concerned, and the reason is because we feel that there is power being taken from us without any kind of accountability. So I see my friends and family saying ICE is in our neighborhood, and I mean a block away from where I live, ICE is in our neighborhood, in our schools. We have to watch out. ICE is in front of our church or ICE is patrolling our neighborhood, and we have to all come together and start throwing whistles and we have to know what it is that we're supposed to do if we get interact, if we interact with ice or any kind of federal agent, which is just in itself disturbing, and we're supposed to just get up in our day and send our kids to school, and we're supposed to go to work and do the things that we're supposed to do.

(08:07):

So it's traumatic. This is a trauma that we are going through, and I think that it only triggers the traumas that a lot of us, black and brown people and community have been trying to get the world to listen and recognize this isn't new for us. It's just now very aggressive and very violent and going backwards instead of forward.

(08:39):

I think that's how I would describe what is really happening in Chicago. On the other side, I think there's this other place of, I'm kind of really proud of a lot of our people where I think it is understandable to say, you know what? It's not me or mine, or I got my papers all together, so that's really unfortunate, but it's not something that's happening in front of me. I could understand that there are some of some people who feel that way because it does feel like a survival situation. I think though there are others who are saying, no, what happens to you is happening to me too, I'm going to keep accountable to my power. And there's a lot of allies out there. There are a lot of people who are moving and saying, I'm afraid, but I'm still going to act in my fear.

(09:37):

And I think that's really brave. So in that way, I feel like there's this movement of bravery and a movement of we've had enough and we're going to reinvent what it is that is our response. It's not this or that. It's not extreme to extreme, but I'm going to do it in the way that I feel is right and that I feel that it's good for me to do and I can be truthful in that. And so today I'm really proud because my kids are going to be protesting and walking out of their school and I'm super, super proud and I was like, send pictures because I'm so proud of them. And so someone could say, is that doing anything? I'm like, hell yeah, doing something. It's doing something. The kids are saying, what power do we have? Not much, but whatever I have, I'm going to put that out there and I'm going to be brave and do it.

(10:34):

And it's important for us to support them. I feel their school does a really good job of supporting them and guiding them through this and letting us parents know, Hey, talk to your kids about this shadow to Belmont Intrinsic Charter School. But they really are doing something. And I find that in a lot of the schools around Chicago, around the Hermosa, Logan Square, Humbold Park area where I live in Humboldt Park, I find that a lot of the schools are stepping up and saying, we are on the community side of taking care of our kids and what's best for our families. So there's that happening and I want to make sure to give that. We have to see that too.

Danielle (11:15):

One thing you really said at the beginning really struck me. You said power without accountability. And two things I think of you see a truck, you see a law enforcement person acting without accountability. Not only does that affect you in the moment and that trauma particularly maybe even chase you, but I think it activates all the other sense and remembrances of when you didn't have power and there was no accountability. So I thought of that, but I also thought of the people perpetrating these crimes and the way it's reinforcing for inside their own body that they can do whatever they want and not have to pay attention to their own soul, not have to pay attention to their own humanity. And there's something extremely dehumanizing about repeating and repeating and normalizing that for them too. So I was, those are the two things that kind of struck me at the beginning of what you said.

Vanessa (12:14):

Yeah, I think what you're saying right now is I think the shock factor of it all of how could you do this and do these things and say these things and not only feel that there won't be any accountability, and I think all of us are kind of going like, who's going to keep this accountable? But I think also, how can you do that and feel okay about it? And so I think about the president that just is, I think a person who I will always shock me all the things that he's doing and saying, it shocks me and I'm glad it shocks me. It should never be normal, and I think that's important. I think sometimes with a lot of supporters of his, there's this normalcy of that's just him. He's just really meaning what he's saying or he's just kind of blunt and I like that about him. That should never be normalized. So that's shocking that you can do that. He can do that and it not be held accountable to the extent that it should be. And then for there to be this huge impact on the rest of us that he's supposed to be supporting, he's supposed to be protecting and looking out for, and then it's permissible, then it's almost supported. It's okay. This is a point of view that other people are like, I'm in supportive.

(13:47):

I think that sounds evil. It sounds just evil and really hard to contend with,

Danielle (13:58):

Which actually makes what the students do to walk out of their schools so much so profoundly resistant, so profoundly different. Walking itself is not violent kids themselves against man and masks fully. I've seen the pictures and I'm assuming they're true, fully geared up weapons at their side, tear gas, all this, and you just have kids walking. Just the stark contrast in the way they're expressing their humanity,

Vanessa (14:30):

Right? Yes. I think, yeah, I see that too, and I think it's shocking and to not recognize that, I think that's shocking for me when people don't recognize that what is going on with I think the cognitive process, what is going on with people in society, in American society where they look at children or people walking and they demonize it, but then they see the things and hear the things that this administration is doing and that they're seeing the things that our military is being forced to do and seeing the things that are happening with ice agents and they don't feel like there's anything wrong with it. That's just something that I'm trying to grapple with. I don't. I see it and you see it. Well, it is kind of like I don't know what to do with it.

Danielle (15:34):

So what do you do then when you hear what happens in your own body when you hear, oh, there's ice agents at my kid's school or we're things are on lockdown. What even happens for you in your body?

Vanessa (15:48):

I think what happens for me is what probably a lot of people are experiencing, which is immediate fear, immediate sorrow, immediate. I think I froze a few times thinking about it when it started happening here in Chicago more so I have a 17-year-old little brown boy, and we're tall people, so he is a big guy. He might look like a man. He is six something, six three maybe, but this is my little boy, this is my baby, and I have to send him out there every day immediately after feeling the shock and the sorrow of there's so many people in our generations. I could think of my parents, I could think of my grandparents that have fought so that my son can be in a better place and I feel like we're reverting. And so now he's going to experience something that I never want him to experience. And I feel like my husband and I have done a really great job of trying to prepare him for life with the fact that people are going to, some of them are going to see him in a different way or treat him in a different way. This is so different. The risk is so much greater because it's permissible now,

(17:19):

And so shock a freeze, and then I feel like life and vision for the future has halted for everybody here.

(17:29):

We can't have the conversation of where are we going? What is the vision of the future and how can I grow as a person? We're trying to just say, how can I get from A to Z today without getting stopped, without disappearing, without the fear completely changing my brain and changing my nervous system, and how can I find joy today? That is the big thing right now. So immediately there's this negative effect of this experience, and then there is the how can we recover and how can we stay safe? That's the big next step for us is I think people mentioned the word resilience and I feel like more people are very resilient and have historically been resilient, but it's become this four letter word. I don't want to be resilient anymore. I want to thrive. And I feel like that for my people. My community is like, why do we have to feel like we, our existence has to be surviving and this what's happening now with immigration and it's more than immigration. We know that it's not about just, oh, let's get the criminals. We know that this is targeted. There's proof out there, and the fact that we have to keep on bringing the proof up, it makes no sense. It just means if you don't believe it, then you've made a decision that you're not going to believe it. So it doesn't matter if we repeat it or not. It doesn't matter if you're right there and see it. So the fact that we have to even do the put out the energy of trying to get this message out and get people to be aware of it

(19:24):

Is a lot of energy on top of the fact that we're trying to survive this and there's no thriving right now. And that's the truth.

Danielle (19:38):

And the fact that people can say, oh, well, that's Chicago, that's not here, or that's Portland, that's not here. And the truth is it's here under the surface, the same hate, the same bigotry, the same racism, the same extreme violence. You can feel it bubbling under the surface. And we've had our own experiences here in town with that. I think. I know they've shut off funding for Pell grants.

And I know that's happened. It happened to my family. So you even feel the squeeze. You feel the squeeze of you may get arrest. I've had the same talk with my very brown, curly hair, dark sun. I'm like, you can't make the mistakes other kids make. You can't walk in this place. You can't show up in this way. This is not a time where you can be you everywhere you go. You have to be careful.

Vanessa (20:38):

I think that's the big thing about our neighborhoods is that's the one place that maybe we could do that. That's the one place I could put my loud music on. That's the one place I could put my flags up. My Puerto Rican flags up and this is the one place that we could be. So for that to now be taken from us is a violence.

Danielle (21:01):

Yeah, it is a violence. I think the fact, I love that you said at the very beginning you said this, I was raised to think of what happens to me is happening to you. What happens to you is happening to me. What happens to them is happening to me and this idea of collective, but we live in a society that is forced separation, that wants to think of it separate. What enables you to stay connected to the people that love you and that are in your community? What inside of you drives that connection? What keeps you moving? I know you're not thriving, but what keeps you

Vanessa (21:37):

Surviving? That's a good question. What keeps us surviving is I think it's honestly, I'll be really honest. It's the knowledge that I feel like I'm worth it.

(21:53):

I'm worth it. And I've done the work to get there. I've done the work to know my healing and to know my worth and to know my value. And in that, I feel like then I can make it My, and I have made it. My duty to do that for others is to say, you are worth it. You are so valuable. I need you and I know that you need me. And so I need to be well in order to be there for you. And that's important. I think. I see my kids, and of course they're a big motivator for me of getting up every day and trying to persevere and trying to find happiness with them and monitor their wellbeing and their mental health. And so that's a motivation. But that's me being connected with others. And so then there's family and friends that I'm connected with talking to my New York family all the time, and they're talking to me about what's going on there and them asking them what's going on there. And then we're contending with it. But then, so there's a process of crying about it, process of holding each other's hands and then process of reminding each other, we're not alone

(23:12):

And then processing another level of, and we can't give up. There's just too much to give up here. And so if it's going to be taken, we're going to take back our power and we're going to make it the narrative of what it's going to be, of how this fight is going to be fought. And that feels motivating. Something to do. There's just so much we've done, so much we've built

(23:35):

These communities have, I mean, sometimes they show the videos of ice agents and I'm like, wow, behind the scenes of the violence happening, you could see these beautiful murals. And I'm like, that's why we fight. That's why every day we get up, that's why we persevere is because we have been here. It wasn't like we just got here. We've been here and we've been doing the work and we've been building our communities. They are taking what we've grown. They're taking research from these universities. They're taking research from these young students who are out here trying to get more information so that it could better this community. So we've built so much. It's worth it. It's valuable and it's not going to be easily given.

Danielle (24:29):

Yeah, we have built so much. I mean, whether it's actually physically building the buildings to being involved in our schools and advocating because when we advocate just not for our rights, but in the past when we advocate for rights, I love what Cesar Chavez talks about when you're advocating for yourself, you're advocating for the other person. And so much of our advocacy is so inclusive of other people. And so I do think that there's some underestimation of our power or a lot, and I think that drives the other side mad. Literally insane.

Vanessa (25:14):

I think so too. I think this Saturdays protest is a big indicator of that. I know. Which you'll see me right there because what are we going to do? I mean, what are the things we can do things and we can do. And I feel like even in the moments when I am in session with a family or if I'm on a conversation with a friend, sometimes I post a lot of just what I see that I think is information that needs to get out there. And I am like somebody's going to see it and go like, oh, I didn't see that on my algorithm. And I get conversations from friends and family of, I need to talk about this. What are your thoughts about it? And I feel like that's a protest of we are going to join together in this experience and remind each other who we are in this moment and in this time. And then in that power, we can then make this narrative what we want it to be. And so it's a lot of work though. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of energy. So then it's a job right now. And I think that's why the word resilience is kind of a four letter word. Can we talk about the after effect? Because the after effect is depleted. There's just, I'm hungry. My nervous system is shot. How do I sleep? How do I eat? How do I take care and sell? soThe

(26:54):

A lot of work and we got to do it, but it's the truth of it. So both can exist, right? It's like how great and then how hard.

Danielle (27:08):

I love it that you said it's a job. It is an effing job, literally. It's like take care of your family, take care of yourself, whatever else you got going on. And then also how do you fight for your community? Because that's not something we're just going to stop doing.

Literally all these extra work, all this extra work, all this extra job. And it's not like you would stop doing it, but it is extra.

What do you think as jumping in back into the mental health field? And I told someone recently, they're like, oh, how's business going? I'm like, what do you mean? How's your client load? And I was like, well, sadly, the government has increased my caseload and the mental distress has actually in my profession, adds work to my plate.

And I'm wondering for you what that's like. And it almost feels gross to me. Like someone out there is committing traumas that we all see, I see in the news I'm experiencing with my family, and then people need to come in more to get therapy, which is great. I'm glad we can have that process. But also, it's really gross to say your business has changed because the government is making more trauma on your people,

Vanessa (28:29):

Right? And I don't know if you experienced this, but I'm also feeling like there's this shift in what the sessions look like and what therapy looks like. Because it's one thing to work on past traumas or one thing to say, let's work on some of the cognitive distortions that these traumas have created and then move into vision and like, okay, well then without that, who are you and what are you and how can you move? And what would be your ideal future that you can work towards that has all halted? That's not available right now. I can't say you're not at risk. What happened to you way back is not something that's happening to you right now that it's not true. I can't tell those who are scientists and going into research, you're fine. You don't have to think about the world ending or your life as you know it ending because the life as people, their livelihoods are ending, have ended abruptly without any accountability, without any protection. It has halted. And a lot of these families I'm working with is we can't go into future that would serve me as let's go into the future. Let's do a vision board that would serve my agenda. But I'm going to be very honest with you, I have to validate the fact that there is a risk. My office is not far from Michigan Avenue. I could see it from here. My window's there, it's right out the window. I have families coming in and going, I'm afraid to come to session

(30:25):

Because they just grabbed somebody two years ago and no one said anything that was around them. I have no one that I can say in this environment that is going to protect me, but they come anyway because they freaking need it. And so then the sessions are that the sessions are the safe place. The only semblance of safety for them. And that's a big undertaking I think emotionally for us as therapists is how do I sit and this is happening. I don't have an answer for you on how to view this differently. It is what it is. And also this is the only safe place. I need to make sure that you're safe with the awareness. You're going to leave my office and I'm going to sit with that knowledge. So it's so different. I feel it's changed what's happening.

Danielle (31:27):

Oh man, I just stopped my breath thinking of that. I was consulting with a supervisor. I still meet with supervision and get consult on my cases, and I was talking about quote anxiety, and my supervisor halted me and she's like, that's not anxiety. That's the body actually saying there's a real danger right now. This is not what we talk about in class, what you studied in grad school. This is like of court. That body needs to have that level of panic to actually protect themselves from a real threat right now. And my job isn't to try to take that away.

Vanessa (32:04):

Right? Right. Yeah. And sometimes before that was our job, right? Of how can I bring the adult online because the child when they were powerless and felt unsafe, went through this thing. Now it's like, no, this adult is very much at risk right now when they leave this room and I have to let them say that right now and let them say whatever it is that they need to say, and I have to address it and recognize what it is that they need. How can I be supportive? It is completely mind blowing how immediate this has changed. And that in itself is also a trauma. There had not been any preparing for, we were not prepared,

Danielle (32:57):

Vanessa. Then even what is your nervous system? I'm assuming it goes up and it comes down and it goes, what is it like for your own nervous system to have the experience of sitting in your office see shit some bad shit then with the client, that's okay. And then you don't know what's happening. What's happening even for you in your own nervous system if you're willing to share?

Vanessa (33:24):

Yeah, I'm willing to share. I'm going through it with everybody else. I really am. I'm having my breakdowns and I have my therapist who's amazing and I've increased my sessions with her. My husband and I are trying to figure out how do we hold space and also keep our life going in a positive way. How do we exemplify how to deal with this thing? We're literally writing the book for our kids as we go. But for me, I find it important to let my, I feel like it's my intuition and my gut and my spirit lead more so in my sessions. There have been moments where I find it completely proper to cry with my clients, to let my tears show.

(34:34):

I find that healing for them to see that I am moved by what they are sharing with me, that they are not wrong to cry. They're not wrong. That this is legitimate. And so for me, that is also healing for me to let my natural disposition of connection and of care below more, and then I need to sleep and then I need to eat as healthy as possible in between sessions, food in my mouth. I need to see beauty. And so sometimes I love to see art especially. So I have a membership to the art museum, a hundred bucks a month, I mean a year. And that's my birthday gift to me every year around March. I'm like, that's for me, that's my present. And I'll go there to see the historical art and go to the Mexican art museum, which is be beautiful. I mean, I love it. And that one, they don't even charge you admission. You give a donation to see the art feels like I am connecting with those who've come before me and that have in the midst of their hardships, they've created and built,

(36:06):

And then I feel more grounded. But it isn't every day. There are days and I am not well, and I'll be really honest with that. And then I have to tell my beautiful aunt in New York, I'm not doing good today. And then she pours into me and she does that. She'll do that with me too. Hey, I'm the little niece. I ain't doing all right. Then I pour into her. So it's a lot of back and forth. But like I said before, I've done the work. I remember someone, I think it was Sandra, in fact, I think Sandra, she said to me one time, Vanessa sleeping is holy.

Like, what? Completely changed my mind. Yeah, you don't have to go into zero. You don't have to get all the way depleted. It's wholly for you to recover. So I'm trying to keep that in mind in the midst of all of this. And I feel like it's done me well. It's done me really good So far. I've been really working hard on it.

Danielle (37:19):

I just take a big breath because it isn't, I think what you highlight, and that's what's good for people to know is even as therapists, even as leaders in our communities, we have to still do all these little things that are necessary for our bodies to keep moving. You said sleep, eat the first one. Yeah, 1 0 1. And I just remember someone inviting me to do something recently and I was just like, no, I'm busy. But really I just needed to go to bed and that was my busy, just having to put my head down. And that feeling of when I have that feeling like I can put my head down and close my eyes and I know there's no immediate responsibility for me at my house. That's when I feel the day kind of shed a bit, the burden kind of lessens or the heightened activity lessens. Even if something comes up, it's just less in that moment.

Vanessa (38:28):

Yes, I agree. Yeah, I think those weekends are holy for me. And keeping boundaries around all of this has been helpful. What you're saying, and no thank you. Next, I'll get you next time. And not having to explain, but taking care of yourself. Yeah. So important

Danielle (38:51):

Vanessa. So we're out here in Washington, you're over there in Chicago, and there's a lot of folks, I think in different places in this United States and maybe elsewhere that listen and they want to know what can they do to support, what can they do to jump on board? Is there practical things that we can do for folks that have been invaded? Are there ways we can help from here? I'm assuming prayers necessary, but I tell people lately, I'm like, prayer better also be an action or I don't want it. So what in your imagination are the options? And I know they might be infinity, but just from your perspective.

Vanessa (39:36):

Yeah, what comes to mind I think is pray before you act. Like you just said, for guidance and honestly, calling every nonprofit organization that's within the black and brown community right now and saying, what is it that you need? I think that would be a no-brainer for me. And providing that. So if they're like, we need money. Give that money. We need bodies, we need people, volunteers to do this work, then doing that. And if they need anything that you can provide, then you're doing that. But I think a lot of times we ask the question, what do you need? And that makes the other person have to do work to figure out to help you to get somewhere. And so even though it comes from a very thoughtful

I would say maybe go into your coffers and say, what can I give before you ask the question? Because maybe just offering without even there being a need might be what you just got to do. So go into your coffers and say, what do I have that I can give? What is it that I want to do? How do I want to show up? Asking that question is the first thing to then lead to connecting in action. So I think that that might be my suggestion and moving forward.

Danielle (41:05):

One thing I was thinking of, if people have spare money, sometimes I think you can go to someone and just pay for their therapy.

Vanessa (41:23):

Agree. Yeah. Offer free therapy. If you are a licensed therapist in another city, you have colleagues that are in the cities that you want to connect with and maybe saying, can I pay for people that want therapy and may not be able to afford it? Maybe people who their insurance has been cut, or maybe people who have lost income. If there's anybody, please let me know. And I want to send that money to them to pay for that, and they don't have to know who I am. I think that's a beautiful way of community stepping up for each other.

Danielle (41:59):

The other thing I think of never underestimate the power of cash. And I know it's kind of demonized sometimes, like, oh, you got to give resources. But I find just sending people when you can, 20, 15, 30, 40 bucks of people on the ground, those people that really love and care about their community will put that money to good use. And you don't actually need a receipt on what it went for.

So Vanessa, how can people get ahold of you or find out more about you? Do you write? Do you do talks? Tell me.

Vanessa (42:39):

Yeah, like I said, I am busy, so I want to do all of those things where I'm not doing those things now, but people can contact me through the practice that I work in the website, and that is deeper connections counseling. And my email is [email protected]. And in any way that anybody wants to connect with me, they can do that there.

 

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.