Shonda Rhimes on the Side of Success People Don’t See

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So, I mean, is there...

and we're gonna move on after this,

because I don't wanna spend the entire hour talking about

Shawn Doran's finding a man.

But...

Is there a type of guy?

If you know anybody, please,

you and your wife can set me up next time you see me.

We may take you up on that.

Hello there, everyone. Craig Melvin here.

I bring you greetings from my basement,

and also my bourbon bar.

We do our podcast here,

because it's called Glass Half Full,

which is generally how I view life,

and so does my next guest.

Shawn Doran's is in a class,

all by herself.

Everything from scandal,

to Greece anatomy,

to Bridgerton,

but there's a lot you probably don't know about Shawn Doran's.

She was,

and to a certain extent, still is,

painfully shy.

She wasn't comfortable in her own skin for a long time.

She's a single mother of three,

who's actually still looking for Mr. Wright.

I'm really excited about this conversation for a number of reasons.

I mean, first of all,

you know, Shawn Doran has changed the way

that millions of people see themselves,

because of her characters,

because of her stories.

But Shawn Doran is also...

She's also changed the way that she sees herself.

And I think you're going to discover a lot more

about Shawn Doran's over the next few minutes.

At least, I know I did.

I hope you enjoy this conversation.

So, Shawn Doran's,

welcome, welcome.

Thank you again for joining me.

You know, we like to start all of these episodes with a toast.

I always start with the same thing.

It's always a little bourbon.

What do you have?

I have a very, very pretty,

overly enhanced drink that I made.

It's cute.

That's very cute.

I like to do the assignment correctly.

So, again, with a big drink.

Well done.

So, first of all,

you've had such an extraordinary career,

such an extraordinary life so far.

What are we toasting?

What is Shawn Doran's toasting right now?

You know, I feel like the defining moment in my life

was the moment when I decided to say yes to everything that scared me,

because I feel like there's a before and an after there.

So, that is what we're toasting.

Cheers to that.

Cheers.

And yes, would you say, generally speaking,

you are a half-class full kind of lady,

or you have a half-class empty kind of lady?

I think the glass have full kind of person.

I really am.

I feel like I'm more optimistic about things than most people are,

and I'm always looking to see sort of what's on the horizon

versus worrying about what already happened.

Have you always been that way?

You know what?

I've been that way since I had kids, I think.

It's really easy to be pessimistic about the world and about life

when it's just you,

but when you're looking towards a future for somebody else,

you really can't hang onto that.

That's a dark way to be.

So, would you say that becoming a mother was the moment

that sort of probably changed who you are the most?

I guess so.

I mean, it had a big giant effect on me, for sure.

I would say like becoming a mother makes it possible

for you to stop thinking about yourself as the most important person in the world,

which is really helpful.

You know, if you're both a pessimist or anybody with an ego,

it's a really good reality check.

I definitely think it changes you and your priorities.

So, do you think that you would have started saying yes?

Had you not become a mom?

Did one lead to the other?

Oh, interesting.

You know, when I started saying yes,

my girls were, I think, nine, 10,

two and one years old.

So, they were tiny.

And I don't know that becoming a mother would have,

like, not becoming a mother would have changed that, maybe.

But I do think I became a mom,

and that idea of all the stuff you do to take care of yourself,

to make yourself better.

That goes out the window for a while.

It really does.

And being reminded of it and being reminded of the fact that,

you know, there is value to taking care of you in all the different ways,

is really a big deal for most women who have kids.

One of the many things that I've,

I've always found fascinating about you.

And I don't know if a lot of folks actually know this.

It's in the book.

And we're going to talk about the tenure anniversary of the book in just a moment.

You were painfully shy for a long time.

Yeah, painfully shy.

And embarrassingly so.

You know, in a way that felt,

I was very uncomfortable in my own skin.

I would rather be at home at the book in my pajamas than almost anything else.

And to get a job where you're suddenly in charge,

you know, I got a television show,

something you're in charge of 300 plus people,

was a horrific shock to my system when it happened.

Because I don't think I was thinking about it that way.

You know, writers and interior life jobs.

So it was a big change.

Like, why do you think you were so shy?

What was it?

Was it something about your childhood that made you that way?

I don't know.

I mean, I think there's something to the fact that I'm the youngest of six.

And in a family like that,

everything is very safe and cocooned.

I'm always the baby.

I feel like there's always somebody else to do something for you in a lot of ways, perhaps.

And didn't help that I spent my entire life living in books.

I read constantly.

I was in my imagination constantly.

So the outside world didn't really hold much sway for me in a lot of ways.

And I gather that your parents, they cultivated this interest as much as they could

from a young age.

The writing, this ferocious reader that you apparently were as well,

they really encouraged this.

Yeah, I mean, I think everybody in my family,

my parents were big readers, my siblings were big readers.

So there was a lot of Saturday afternoons where I was just laying around reading a book

that felt normal.

My mother and father made a rule for me that they would never tell me I couldn't read something.

And so that was like this power.

So I would go to the library and I would like pick up French lieutenant's woman.

And the librarian would be like, you can't read that.

You're too young.

I was like seven.

And I was like, my mom says I can read whatever I want.

And my mother would come down to the library and say, don't tell her she can't read something.

And it was the best thing ever because I felt like I was being like this maverick

in terms of reading these books.

When you're seven, you don't really know what they mean.

And the way that, you know, somebody older would know what they mean.

But I read those books and loved them.

I love that.

I want to go back.

What prompted the year of yes?

You know, I, my career had taken off.

I had, you know, Grey's an enemy.

I had scandal.

We had, I think we had had to get it with murder.

Like, it had all taken off in a big way.

And I would come, I would like get all these invitations for things.

Like, I would be invited to like buy that for some monoco.

I would be invited to all these insane things.

And one Thanksgiving, I was sitting with my sister, my oldest sister.

And she was making Thanksgiving dinner.

Well, you know, it's our family that's going to come over.

And I was telling her about all these fancy invitations I'd gotten.

I'm invited here and I'm invited there and I'm this.

And she finally just stopped.

And said, Shonda, are you going to do any of these things?

And I remember thinking like, what is she crazy?

I was like, absolutely not.

And she just thought that was the strangest thing.

And she said, you know what's really sad is you have all these invitations.

You have this whole family here to support you.

You know, to be with the kids if you wanted to go do something, you never say yes to anything.

And it took me a while, but I really realized that she was right.

It was really true.

This idea that I had, it didn't matter what somebody asked.

If it felt unfamiliar to me, if it felt like a big social commitment, if it felt like me talking in public,

if it felt like anything out of my comfort zone, I said no.

And I decided that I was going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me.

But why were you saying no?

Like because I think a lot of, I think for a lot of people, you're showing the rhymes.

It's like, I mean, you, you know, there are people who go out every night who've done far less

and who enjoy being celebrated.

But what was it, you think?

I don't know.

Did you do success?

No, it felt, you know, I feel like success was, was pretty damaging for me in the beginning.

I had this moment of panic every time somebody wanted to pay attention to me

or there was anything to do with like, lauding my work or me.

I just felt really uncomfortable with it.

I felt exposed.

I'm not a person who lived an exterior life.

So for me, the idea that I would be approached from the outside, my whole world was my imagination for real.

Like, and I was very comfortable with that.

And I loved working on my shows because in a lot of ways, I was living a vicariously through all my characters, right?

And you don't even think about that.

Anything I wanted to do, my character's it.

And I remember being in New York when Grace, it was clear that Grace was this gigantic hit

and there were people rocking the bus with the cast in it.

And I woke up one morning and Maureen Dowd had written an article about me.

And I remember so clearly, like, calling my producing partner Betsy and saying,

we have to get out of here.

We have to get out in New York.

And she was like, why?

I was like, there's too much attention.

Like, this is terrible.

And she, of course, thought I was crazy.

She was like, this is the best thing that could happen.

For me, it felt really strange.

And then, you know, things got weird.

How many writers do you know, TV writers, you know, who do you know them by name or by face?

Like, people know who I am and I'm a writer, which is not supposed to be, in my mind, not supposed to be how it worked.

I was supposed to be the person in the background happily, you know, telling my stories.

To suddenly be front and center was a really scary time for me.

It just, for a really shy, really introverted person, it felt like torture for a while.

It really did.

And I had to figure out how to get over that.

And I think this experience really helps me.

And you know, I understand these are like diamond problems like, oh, poor, you know, rich writer lady, people like you.

But it was really confusing for the way I live my life and my brain.

I also have this feeling very much of like, why is anybody want to talk to me?

And I know that that's silly.

And I'm over that now.

But the first thing that happened to really make me realize that I had to start saying yes to everything

was that I was invited to an event in Washington, D.C.

And when I got there, I was told that I was going to be sitting with president and Mrs. Obama.

Nobody asked me. They just told me.

And I went and I had an amazing time.

And it was fantastic.

And I was so nervous.

But I had this great time.

And I went home and I thought that was a once in a lifetime incredible experience.

And then I realized there was somebody who had asked me if I wanted to sit with them.

I would have said no.

I would have absolutely, under no circumstances, what I have said, yes to that.

That sounds terrifying, why in the world, but they want to talk to me.

What do I have to say?

It was that kind of thing.

Did the Obama's provide feedback on Grey's Anatomy during the meal?

I got a lot of feedback about scandal for sure.

Oh, you know what?

I read that Mrs. Obama was a big scandal fan.

She is a big scandal fan.

She really wanted me to know what I had gotten wrong about the way the White House ran, which was interesting.

Is it also true that when you when you decided to do the residence that she was sort of an unofficial consultant as well?

No, that is not true.

No, no.

When it came to the layout of the White House, there was no.

No, I mean, Michael Smith, who was the White House designer who designed the residence for the Obama's back in the day.

They, he, well, they had him in there and he was in there a lot.

So I talked to him a lot.

He designed my house.

So I talked to him a lot about it.

But, you know, we'd already become very clear about what the White House was and how it ran back when we were doing scandals.

So the residence was more of like more of what we already knew.

I want to go back to your childhood.

Yes.

You're one of six, the youngest, the youngest of six, right?

Yes, I'm the youngest of six.

Your parents, every time I see them, they make me smile because they remind me a lot of my own parents.

How much joy and pride have they taken in all of your professional success?

Well, in my family, I know they're immensely proud.

I really do.

I know that they're proud because my mother pays attention to everything.

My father, you know, hangs up any single thing that comes, he finds it comes about me and saves it.

I know they're immensely proud and they've told me they're proud.

But in day to day life, my parents are like, you're still the youngest kid in the family.

He's still like, it's your turn to watch the dishes over here at Family Dinner.

You know, they're proud, but they're not interested in suggesting that they're any less proud of their other kids.

My mother, this is all the time.

She's like, I'm proud of you, just like I'm proud of all your siblings.

And they're still young enough and healthy enough to enjoy it all, to enjoy seeing the fruits of their labor.

For me, at least, that's one of those things that I always sort of moves me.

Like, yeah, okay, maybe it's cool.

I get to do this little morning show every day, but the fact that my mom and dad can watch it every morning

and send me texts about my Thai choice or the fact that I look tired.

Like, that always makes my heart smile.

I agree. I mean, I think a lot about how hard my parents worked to raise us, how hard they...

I mean, six kids, not easy, and how hard they worked to make sure there were opportunities for us.

You know, I always say, like, my mom was like an invisible advance man for my entire life.

You know what I mean? Like, going forward and making sure that anybody who suggested that this little black girl couldn't do what she wanted to do,

that person was out of the way almost before I even knew they existed.

You know, she was not going to have it.

And so seeing how much work and how much effort and how much love and care they put into us.

You know, I know that people love their parents.

Well, I think my parents are pretty spectacular. Like, they're probably two of the best people I know and plan it.

More with Shawn Derives after the break.

Let's go!

From Nintendo and Illumination.

The Super Mario Brothers can take care of the Kingdom.

Comes a super-powered adventure.

On April 1st...

Pack our things.

The Galaxy gets even bigger.

He knows that's my bike, right?

Loser!

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How old were you when you adopted your first child?

I was 32.

32.

How did you decide it, 32, that you wanted to become?

By choice, a single mother.

I always knew I wanted to be a mom.

That was never a question in my life.

I could always imagine that.

Could I always imagine a husband?

Not so much.

I wasn't that person.

I'm a loner.

I don't know.

Little girls dream of their weddings.

I would play mom, but I would never play wedding or doing those things.

It just didn't happen.

I wasn't that kid.

My parents have been married forever and have the most spectacular marriage.

It's an amazing example right in front of me of two people who are literally made for each other.

But it never was a priority for me in that way.

But what really happened was Harper's born nine months and two days after 9-11.

Oh wow.

I had rented a house in Vermont.

There was my first big like, I have some money, I'm going to do something.

It was not that much money.

But I rented this house in Vermont for a month to write.

I had this house all rented and I flew there.

And I was going to just sort of navel gaze and think about myself and do what you imagine writers do in houses in Vermont.

And I got there in the next morning 9-11 happened.

And I remember being isolated in this place where I knew nobody watching this thing unfold.

The lady who I rented the house from lived in near the 9-11 site.

And so I never heard from her again.

And it was just the scariest time.

And I remember thinking like there are all these things I always wanted to do with my life.

And maybe I'm never going to get to do them.

And number one on that list was adoptive baby.

Become a mom.

It was just the number one thing on the list.

And so I literally came home.

I got home from Vermont.

I went and found an adoption attorney.

And that was the first step.

And after the first adoption, you enjoyed it so much.

You're like, you know what?

I'm going to do this two more times.

And we say I had Harper than I had 37 actors.

Because then I had Grace and Scandal.

I mean, I had to go with murder.

I had all of this stuff going on.

And it wasn't until I realized that Harper was going to turn 10.

And she was going to be an only child if I didn't get it together.

And I can't imagine that.

I mean, growing up in such a big family, I cannot imagine the only child thing.

And I realized I had to get it together.

Actors or no actors, job or no job.

And so I then said I'm going to have two more.

And I went from there.

I want to go back to the husband thing for a second here.

Because you write.

You write me very well.

I mean, your characters are, you know, they're just.

I'm not saying I don't want to get married anymore.

Like that's like that that didn't change.

But at the time, it was never like, like at the top of my list,

when 911 happened, wasn't, oh my god,

I have to find somebody to spend the rest of my life with.

It was, oh my god, I'm not going to become a mother.

I have to do that.

That's just how my brain works.

When you, when you write a man, when does that come from?

Oh, I don't know.

That comes from wherever I write all the characters.

I mean, I had great men in my life.

I have great examples of great men.

I have great examples of bad men, what we all do and bad people.

But I don't know.

I honestly couldn't tell you where any of my characters come from.

But I always like to say, you know, in the beginning,

when scandal first happened, I remember being asked,

how does it feel to finally have a voicemail black woman on screen?

And I was like, Derek Shepherd spoke as the voicemail black woman.

I wrote all those people.

So they're all me in some capacity.

And they are.

So I don't, I don't know where a character comes from.

They just, I don't like to say like it's magical.

They appear, but they appear.

Is it hard for you to date now?

It's hard to meet people on a level where they're,

on a level where the question, what do you do comes to me?

And they actually mean it.

You know what I mean?

So there's already a preconceived thing ahead of meeting.

Which is a bummer.

What's the preconceived thing you say?

I write popular shows.

People have opinions about them.

They're, you know, they're mothers and sisters.

And, you know, I love your shows.

And it's, that becomes kind of the conversation.

And to me, like that's talking about work versus talking about life.

And I think I try to be good at that.

But it's hard.

Also, once again, I am innately shy.

So my sister says I have absolutely no radar for anybody being interested in me at all.

She's like, you're terrible at that.

You never know.

And someone's interested.

So, I mean, is there, and we're going to move on after this.

Because I don't want to spend the entire hour talking about Shonda Rhymes finding a man.

But is there, is there a type of guy?

Like if, if Shonda Rhymes could like write the perfect guy for Shonda Rhymes,

what would the guy, what would he be like?

What would he look like?

Oh, I don't know what he would look like.

I'm open on looks.

I think for me, this most attractive thing about somebody is them being intelligent,

like really smart, and having an opinion about the world.

Like to me, that's interesting.

Like you have to be somebody who's, who wants to be involved in the world,

who, you know, I don't care if you're an activist or in the philanthropy,

but you have to be somebody who's involved in the world and cares about the world.

And you have to be really intelligent.

If you know anybody, please, you and your wife can set me up next time.

We may take you up on that, but I love, I love that you are still open to, to that.

Do your kids ever, are your kids ever like mom?

Like I know this guy or you should do this or you should meet this guy.

Are they ever like that?

Harper was for a while.

Like Harper really was always.

She would, I would go on dates and she would come, like run to the door just we were leaving

and say make the magic happen.

Like she was really cute when she was young.

But no, I think the other girls, you know, I'm mom to them.

And so they're also always like, they're very upset when I put on makeup and go anywhere.

Like they're like, what have you done to your face?

You know, they're those kids who they like me as me and at home.

And they can't imagine me as a separate person.

And I got that on their mom.

So for a while, that's going to be okay.

But yeah, they're not, they're not into that stuff.

I mean, you, you do accept the fact that I would imagine for a lot of guys.

You, you're probably intimidating.

That's kind of what I met when I was saying what I was saying.

I think maybe there's an intimidation factor which comes from the fact that I'm shy.

And therefore, I would say like if you're shy and you're well known, that mix makes you seem like you might not be a nice person

or you might be a loof or you might be cold.

If you're shy and nobody knows you, people go, oh, that poor shy person.

But when you're well known, they're like, you don't really have the right to be that way.

So I do think it might come off that way.

And I try really hard to not give that live off.

I don't think you give that live off.

I don't, but so let's, let's go back to the work.

Let's go back to the profession because it's, I mean, you know, you look at your resume and it really is.

It's pretty dark on remarkable.

Is there one show that, that you're proudest of?

I think the show that I'm actually, I know the show that I'm proudest of.

And this is, it's interesting because I'm really proud of all the shows in different ways.

But after I wrote Queen Charlotte, the prequel to Bridgerton, I really said to myself,

if I never write another thing again, I'm fine.

Like I, I loved writing it.

I love the way it came out.

I loved probably, you know, generally I would have said scandals, my favorite show,

but I think it's because I got to do like this little jewel box at eight episodes

and they were exactly as I wanted them to be.

I really love that one.

I also, you know, I think about a lot.

It's about a woman coming into power and figuring out who she is

and standing up for herself and standing in her own shoes.

So I think there's something about that. I love that one.

My second favorite or my sort of my long time favorite will always be scandal.

Scandal was, I knew what I was doing at that point and got to play in the sandbox

versus being really worried that someone was going to take the sandbox away.

So you're trying to take me back to that moment that you decided, you know what?

ABC's been good to me.

ABC's helped make me, but professionally, but Netflix, Netflix.

I mean, I could feel a sea change.

I feel like everybody should have been able to feel that sea change.

When Netflix was making the crown and they were making these shows

that were just spectacular, like just these really beautiful shows

with these great budgets.

And I realized that I was spending more time watching Netflix

than I was watching our television.

And I felt pretty much that that seemed to be true of almost anybody I knew.

And I saw the budgets and I, you know, I'd been at ABC for a long time

and they had, we'd had a great relationship.

It'd been very good to me.

I felt like I'd reached a point there of Betsy and I talked about this.

I reached a point there where I could solve any problem in two seconds.

You know, in the beginning, at the beginning of Grey's Anatomy,

it would take us months to solve something.

And now that same thing, literally, somebody asked me,

I would tell the answer and it'd be done.

I didn't have to think about it anymore.

The challenges were not the same there at all.

I wasn't learning anything new.

I had sort of mastered what I was doing.

And, you know, working at a network and working at a company like that

and was sort of ready to try something else.

And ready to feel appreciated for what I was bringing to the table

in a very different way.

And Netflix was really offering me creative freedom.

Because, you know, when Ted asked me what I wanted,

I said, I just want to be able to make television

and everybody leave me alone.

And he was like, great, fine, do it.

And that's sort of how I went in there

with this great feeling of, you're going to make TV.

No one's going to ask you a million questions.

You're going to be left alone while you're doing it.

And that has been a wonderful thing.

More ahead with Shonda Rhimes.

Stay with us.

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Let's go.

From Nintendo and Illumination.

The Super Mario Brothers can take care of the kingdom.

Comes a super-powered adventure.

On April 1st.

Pack our things.

The galaxy gets even bigger.

He knows that's my bike, right?

Loser.

The Super Mario Galaxy move a hoodie PGA

only theaters April 1st get to get now.

How do you cash back with Chase Freedom Unlimited?

Four decks of cards, three pairs of dice,

and two very different friend groups.

Cash back on game night.

Earns 3% cash back at drug stores.

With Chase Freedom Unlimited.

Restrictions and limitations apply.

Cards are issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC.

Bridget sends back.

And what else are we going to get from that ecosystem?

Right now we're in big development cycle.

So we're close to a point where we will be letting people know

what's coming next.

But we're not ready to start letting people know

what's coming next at this exact moment.

I never let's announce something until we're ready to go with it.

Because then people get invested or excited or estimate questions.

Well, people are already excited.

So.

I know.

So, but beyond.

Beyond Quinn Charlotte.

Like are we going to see.

Something else.

Come out of.

Of the Bridgerton world.

Do you mean?

Yeah.

I think definitely.

I mean, I think that's an area that we're excited about.

And know that that could be really rich and really mind.

Well, I've always said that I thought.

If we were going to do something like that,

Violet would be a great person to tell the story about the.

The Bridgerton mom.

So yeah, that's possibility.

But also we're just looking at we're, you know, we're working on developing.

Well, I think we're working.

We're currently developing other projects that are very different worlds from Bridgerton.

Because.

Well, Bridgerton's amazing.

We always continue to want to stretch and grow.

Wait a minute.

Now, what it was?

Well, what kind of other worlds are we talking here?

Because you and I once talked about sci-fi.

Do you remember this?

I do.

I remember it.

I still talk about sci-fi constantly.

And that isn't, that is a genre that I'm still really interested in.

And have been filling around.

And yeah, I don't know when we're going to have a sci-fi project.

Because that's a little on me.

But I do know it's something I really, really want.

And I want a kind of an action series.

I think that'd be kind of a female action series.

One of the things, by the way, for whatever it's worth,

my aunt really wishes that you could figure out a way to bring back

Wiggies on pictures.

You're on and everybody else on the planet.

I hear that all the time.

Is there, you can't, we can't bring them back.

There's no.

I think, I think for Wiggie, he did what he came to do.

And it was sort of what we said, which is, I said,

you're going to come on for one season.

You're going to be this big romantic lead.

You're going to have this amazing part.

And then you're gone.

If you notice, every season is about one romance.

And then, and once you've had your romance,

there's really not a lot of story that you're carrying after that.

So you have this season where you're number one on the call sheet.

You're the leading man.

And then, then you're not proud.

Yeah.

But by the way, I think that's one thing people have,

at least one thing I've always enjoyed about you.

Like, shot the Ramzo, kill off a character and a heartbeat.

Show right somebody.

You'll love someone.

They disappear.

And it's like, that's it.

Well, you know, my job, I always say this.

My job is to be the keeper of the story.

My job is not to be the keeper of the fans.

My job is not to be the keeper of my friendships with actors.

My job is to do with the story dictates.

And that is really hard to do.

But it's also really important.

Because if that's not where my mind is,

then I'm not telling the best story I can.

And I feel like people would feel that and know that.

I don't think you can live in a world where your whole goal

is to give the fans what they want.

Because what the fans want to see is Marathon Dare holding hands on a beach

for the rest of time.

That would be a very boring show.

You know, I look back on some of the deaths on some of the characters

and I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe I did that.

Now, in perspective.

But at the time, it was what the story dictated to me

so clearly that there was no other choice.

Is there a moment that you can recall when a fan came up to you?

And they were like, Shonda, I can't believe you did this.

A moment.

You know that happens to me at least three times a week.

Still, still.

And I haven't killed anybody in a long time.

What do they come up and say?

What do they come up and say?

There's a lot of...

You traumatized me when you killed George.

Why did you kill McDreamy?

There's a lot of...

Like that's a big question constantly.

And then, you know, there's the other group of people

who say that playing crash will win my life.

Because you know, we killed a bunch of people in playing crash.

And I get it.

I get it.

For me, it was when we killed Danny.

Like I did what the story dictated and I hated every minute of it

for Izzy in that early seasons.

But you do what you got to do for the story.

Wow.

When you write, do you procrastinate?

I don't believe in the phrase procrastinate.

What does that mean?

What do you mean you don't believe in it?

I mean, yeah, I do procrastinate all the time.

But what I like to say is I'm not quite ready to write yet.

That's procrastination.

Well, there's this moment when for me, like I'm thinking.

So I really do do shows in the way that like I'm writing a television pilot.

I spend like nine months thinking about it.

Not writing anything down.

Just nine months thinking about it.

And then I'll sit down and like two or three days I'll write the pilot.

So a lot of what people call procrastinating.

I like to say it's just me not ready to write yet.

I'm still like, I'm still percolating.

It's not great for people, yeah.

You spend months before you put pen to paper just actually thinking.

And then when I put pen to paper, then I'm done thinking.

Like I can then just write the story.

And that happens pretty quickly.

But if I'm, you know, if I'm not done thinking,

there's no point in me trying to write something.

Has that always been the process?

Yeah.

I mean, for my whole life, that's been the process.

It seems I could serve you well.

I guess why I fix it if it ain't broken, huh?

I'm sure there's a better way to do it.

But for me, that's where it's worth.

So I've been rewarded for it.

So I'm not going to stop.

The kids want to know if you're on TikTok.

I am on TikTok.

I don't think I'm very good at TikTok yet.

And my children are slightly embarrassed.

I'm on there.

But I have fun.

Your children can't be embarrassed by you.

Oh, my God.

I'm the most embarrassing person.

Anybody's mother is the most embarrassing person in the world.

My 11 year old has a pact with all over friends that they will never,

ever watch Gray's Anatomy because how embarrassing is it that her mother wrote it?

And they've all agreed.

Yeah.

I think it's kind of great.

I mean, I think it would be weird if my children were like my mom's super interesting and important.

Nobody thinks that about their mom at that age.

You know what you should tell them?

You should tell them.

Sometimes I tell my kids when they complain about commercials or the news.

I'll tell them, I'm like, hey, they pay for this house.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

And I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

That's what I say.

You know what?

I just want to see youТ

rollin' around, it's like you're ruining my profession.

I get to sit down and watch somebody go to TV.

Um, fans want to know.

If there's any remote chance that there might be a scandal movie.

You know, I love my scandal people because we we, panel thinks we've got a lot of

Corey Union everywhere in the US open, like we are all really really close.

I would work with them on anything.

Do I think there's a scandal movie in us?

I don't know.

it back and forth. So I'm not saying no, but I'm definitely not saying yes. So I don't want

people to get too excited. So what you will say though, is that there have been conversations

about the possibility of a scandal movie. Just between Carrie and I, not between anybody else.

I've not brought anybody else in the conversation. I eat the people who would pay for a scandal movie.

Well, you know what? I'm just saying that their conversations, that's going to be enough to make

a lot of people very happy. We've got two minutes left. I'm going to give you two questions for the

road. Looking back, Shandarans, is there is there a moment that you would approach differently

knowing what you know now? I think there's a lifetime I would approach differently. If I knew

then what I know now, I would have enjoyed everything so much more. I think I spent a lot of time

working where you're trying to get somewhere. And I was busy trying to get somewhere, not really

really realizing that I was already there at the point. You know, the first time I realized that

I had made it was, and I'm not kidding, I was sitting in the audience listening to Oprah Winfrey

induct me into the television Academy Hall of Fame. That was the first time it occurred to me that

I could relax. And that's way too late in the game for that to happen. And if I had, you know what I

mean? Like I spent every time being like, that was great. That was what's next. Like, or I have to work

harder. I never like sat in a moment. I went like and took it in. And that's that moment taught me

like you have to sit in these moments and take them in because every last one of them, they were

all amazing. You know, even when I was worried that like, so we made the first episode of Grace,

I should have been thrilled and celebrating that. Instead, I was so worried about like how to

keep going and what was it going to be. So yeah, I would have enjoyed it more. I think that's important.

But it seems like you're enjoying it now. I am enjoying it immensely now. That has become

part of the thing. You know, one of the things that happened with this new edition of Year of

Yes is I sat down to write about where I am 10 years after writing the first book. And it was a real

exploration of who I'd become. And kind of a moment of realization of the places where I'd

like, backslid and start saying no again. But also the places where I'd said yes, and it had

truly been life changing. Like I can look at my life then and look at my life now and see the

changes so clearly. And that's been an amazing thing. Yeah. Do you still say yes to everything?

Not everything, but not, but now I feel like I say yes to enough things that I feel comfortable

saying no. You know, before I would be like, maybe I shouldn't say no. Now I feel very comfortable

saying no to things. And I say yes to the things that excite me. Your glasses have full. My glasses

have full. I'm going to close with the cheers and other toast. We're going to we're going to

toast the one moment that Shandarams is still chasing. Is there one thing that you would still love

to do that you haven't done yet? I'd love to write a play. I'd love to have a play in Broadway.

That would be amazing to me. Cheers to your Broadway play. Cheers.

There you have it. And you thought you knew Shandarams. A big thanks to Shandar, the 10th anniversary

of her book, The Year of Yes, the 10th Anniversary Edition. It is out now. And thank you so much.

Thanks for joining me today on that that journey with Shandarams. I hope you enjoyed our

conversation. The podcast bosses that oversee this operation have encouraged me to tell you to

subscribe or download. And I will see you back here next time. Enjoy. I don't know why I'm

blowing kisses. That's probably not the best way in the podcast. I will see you back here next time

for Glass Half Full. But for now. Cheers. Today's episode of Glass Half Full with Craig Melvin is

produced by Sadie Bass in Jared Crawford along with Lily Award. Ali Strain is our editor.

And Matt Tierney is our audio engineer. Ariana Davis and Ashley Codillani are our executive producers.

Additional production support is provided by Anne Legamayo, Chloe Liang,

Ashley Domagoa, Bailey Coronus, and Gabriella Rudy.

This is by J.P. Morgan Schaespeck and a member of FDIC.