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A real guy dot on a real cross for the real you and if you really give him your life he can really change you forever
I did my PhD on the resurrection. I've published 300,000 words on the resurrection
I was conditioned to be a skeptic on the shroud and now I believe the shroud is authentic pastor Josh because I'm not irrational
Well, hey, a lifrey nation before we jump into the episode this podcast is recorded right here at late-point church in Dallas, Texas
But the lifrey nation is straddle over the country and all around the world
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Ladies general welcome welcome
episode number 69 of lifrey with
Jeremiah Johnson. We are really excited very excited to be here. Come on. Thank you guys
So for people who are unaware of what's about to happen
I seriously think this is going to be the most interesting episode of lifrey we've ever done and I'll explain why here in a second
We're going to go full Indiana Jones. Let's go. This episode. This is like the Vinci cold meets Nicholas Cage national treasure meets Indiana Jones
But without the heresy that's right
So here's my lead in
And if you're listening when I say this sentence if you roll your eyes
I'm asking you to stay with me
We're getting ready to spend like an hour talking about the shroud of turin. Let's go. Okay, so let me just set this up
I literally just saw this two days ago
I'm scrolling x and there's a new I think it was newsweek
They do this article. I'm like what did Jesus really look like right and they do this every Easter
And it looks like a Neanderthal that somebody drew exactly yeah in seventh grade. Yep, and so here's the question
What here's the question. What if we actually already know what Jesus look like
Because of what you're about to walk us through bro not only that Jesus took the first selfie
We're about to check it out
My four my 15-year-old daughter will be delighted and it was powerful. It was a powerful selfie. I'm very excited
That flash on it. Yes, okay, big time flash flash. Yeah, there you go. Okay, so let me set this up and then honestly
I want you to do the talking so this is a special
Pre-Easter episode that I think is gonna boost encourage people's faith in the resurrection
Significant thousand percent. Okay, so let me set up while you're here and why I would never have had you come talk about this
12 months ago
So no joke this is true story dude
So last Easter leading up to Easter I'm getting ready to just sort of debrief
It was a Sunday night of inspiration. I was like I'm a listener podcast a thumbnail pops up for me
Of you on the Michael Knowles show and it was about the shroud of turn and no joke dude
I'm we'll talk about this in a second. I'm team Protestant. Yep. So I'm like oh, man
Relics and that's that's like a Catholic then I'm super skeptical and I see the thumbnail and I'm like
Who hoodwinked Knowles? Yeah, that's seriously what I thought
So then I click it. I'm like what crack pie hoodwinked Knowles you start talking and dude no joke
I'm 20 30 minutes in and I'm like holy crap
This guy there may be something to this. Yeah, so
special pre-easter episode of lifrey
Bishop Jeremiah can we just let's stop you get on a Catholic
Let's just start right here. Okay, cuz lifrey. It's a bunch of normal dudes. Yep
Let's start right here
Quick introduction for people have no idea what we're talking about. What's the shroud of turn?
The shroud of turn is believed to be the actual burial cloth that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus used to wrap the crucified
Brutalized dead corpse of Jesus in on Friday, April 3rd, 8033
Well, that was very specific. Well actually can I can I click on something? Yeah, Friday, April 3rd, 8033
Nissan 14. How are you getting that specific date? It's amazing
Well, it's because the resurrection and the crucifixion of Jesus is the best established fact of the ancient world
If we cannot believe that Jesus died by Roman crucifixion on Friday, April 3rd, 8033 based on the lunar calendar
Nissan 14
3500 years the Jews always celebrated Passover at the time that Taurus said they should based on the two
Opportunities that Nissan 14 could have occurred during Pacha's Pilots reign 26 to 36 AD. We have two options 80 30 80 33
Say that lessons again. All right, so during we know we know the dates of Pacha's Pilots reign
I know that's about 36 AD and you say there's only two operatives only two times the lunar calendar
Aligns with Passover on that Friday that Jesus could have possibly been crucified during his ministry and it there's two great options
Actually a Friday, April 7, 80 30, but I'm more convinced that it's Friday, April 3rd, 8033 for a variety of reasons that I get into
But without a doubt. It's the best but I do and so it's the best
But the point is if we can't believe that Jesus died on that Friday and rose again on Sunday, April 5th
Which by the way is this Sunday, April 5th? Isn't that ironic? Let's go. Wow
So April 5th, 80 33 is the day of the resurrection
We know from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory that Sunrise was 543 AM on that morning
We could go right and do that
When the women go to the tomb, they're going there early. They're following Jewish burial traditions
They're going to continue spicing the body. We'll get into why they're doing that and they're astonished because the tomb is empty
And they run to tell everybody about it and that's when we have this amazing sprint
I love that the Bible talk smack. I love that John wants you to know that he's much faster than Slope here
He takes two inherent verses in God's word to say when the guy finally got there we went into the tomb
And they see if you follow the chronology in John 20 this this is where the Bible is so awesome
I've read it a hundred times. I'm a historical Jesus scholar, but I was humbled. I felt like
Nicodemus when he said when Jesus looks at him and said you're the teacher of Israel and you haven't seen this
You don't know these things. I did my PhD on the resurrection. I've published 300,000 words on the resurrection
I was a complete I was conditioned to be a skeptic on the shroud
So I feel like the intro. I'm just mirroring you because I'm shuckling to myself
I've been through all of those things and now I believe the shroud is authentic pastor Josh because I'm not your rational
Okay, because I'm not your rational
So all right to leave this in because you're gonna
I want you to get some of this stuff that when I heard it for the first time legitimate
I'm upstairs in my little oh hanging out room everyone's about to get shroud pill dude. It's since
You know, I'm now here's what we do. Let me for people who are listening here's where you do
We're gonna let doc Jeremiah do his thing and then what I'm gonna do and he told me before the podcast
Not to tell him what objections. I'm gonna throw at him. Yeah, so you can do your thing and throw
Anyways, I know
Not had to help from a researcher also
So I'm gonna throw at you
The strongest objections to the legitimacy. I'll see what you do. So there are
Talk about real quick for people who are unfamiliar. We actually have Bible verses
About the burial clause. Yeah reference those real quick so people know what you're about to know what we're doing here is not
Antibiblical it's in the Bible
It's fascinating to me that all four gospels we have 89 chapters in the gospels all four gospels lead up one third of those 89 chapters
Or about what happened that Easter weekend and they all mentioned the evidential detail that there were burial clause
Matthew Mark and Luke use the term athonia
Which is exactly what's behind me right now what people are looking at a fine
linen burial cloth a herringbone weave
John's gospel comes along and gives us two other details
It talks about this pseudarium, which is the face cloth that they disciples find in the corner of the tomb
and then right and then we also hear the strips of linen and that
Excuse me as athonia sendin is what's in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Let me be clear. Sendin is Matthew, Mark and Luke
John is athonia in pseudarium
So we have three different terms for burial used in the gospels all four gospels
Make a very specific point that chronologically speaking when John saw the linen clause lying there
He saw and believed so that's my hope for the payoff of the of the broadcast today
You mean like John did he not believe before that? Oh no, he he was a follower of Jesus
But when he saw the shroud he really believed okay, so that's the payoff of this broadcast watching it all the way through is
Your faith is gonna be strengthened and you're gonna be you're gonna have a measurable strength
You're gonna have a first Corinthians 1557 58 experience
Based on this broadcast. I promise you. Okay. All right, so let's get into it. That's biblical
What am I looking at? Okay, and why do you think this thing's legit? I think it's legit because first off the shroud of turn
I I was utterly skeptical of it and tell I actually bothered to get past the sound bites and look at the substance
So I had heard about this flash my doctor father Craig Evans
He's probably the finest Jesus scholar in the English speaking world 700 publications on Jesus
He begins to tell me about the shroud and he's like Jeremiah
We can't quantify the amount of power. You should really look into this then my pastor Jack Graham on a Friday out
We love we love we love our grand we love him. He's the OG
He tells me on a Friday morning men's Bible study after I'd been kind of tinkering with the shroud stuff a little bit
And he said we'll get up and just share what you're learning and guys then I was like there's video this
I was like now I'm not going to stake my academic reputation on this but let me just share what I'm learning
But here's something for all the dudes watching
I'm looking out there at the time of my son Justin. I have four boys one daughter
Justin my son who to get him to talk about football or Xbox or girls for anything more than one sentence is an impossibility
He is locked in spiritually
And I'm just sharing about the resurrection and all the facts of the shroud and I'm watching my this is a 630 AM Bible study
I'm watching my 11 year old son and it is impacting him and I was like brother
I will go all over the world that research this if it gets you excited about your faith
Good job, man. So then I'm in Jerusalem
I'm filming a series and I've been in more tombs and anyone you've ever met in fact
I was laughing today because I was in the tomb in a mess and the the producers
I hope I don't mess with the audio they they do this and I thought what do you clap and for and like oh
We're scaring the snakes away. You need to do this in one take
That was it. Okay. I'm filming. I had a day off and I go to the Athonium Museum
And I see some of the show and tell them about to show your audience in you two car
By the way, we don't know what's coming. Yeah, so I'm very excited bro
It takes my breath away no one's there and it turns out that the Holy Spirit is really good at his job
And it literally takes my breath away and I have an experience with the Lord that
It's now the best evangelism
What we're looking at behind me is the best evangelism disciples discipleship tool
I have ever used and seen in my life
So we're looking at a burial cloth
We're looking at and this is typical we have hundreds of burial claws from the land of Jesus
Which is Jerusalem with we even have a burial shroud from the tomb of the shroud people can search this up
There were Bible deniers that said that the Bible was false because Hanson's disease wasn't around in the time of Jesus
Well, guess what the tomb of the shroud it was so airtight
That when we discovered it 20 years ago it actually has flesh on it hair on it and it has Hanson's disease on it
And it's dated from the time of Jesus showing that there really was
Let's see you said the tomb of the shroud that we discovered 20 years ago. What is that?
That's just another shroud tomb
We have so many different routes of different one
I'm just making the point that we have lots of shrouds. We still find those like all of them find them
And this one actually had leprosy on it proving that Jesus really did this one
No, the one the tomb of the shroud. I'm just giving the example
We have we have shrouds at Masada where you've been lots of shrouds at Masada
And so what's unique about the shroud of turn is that it has an image of a brutalized crucified man
That has complete
Correspondence with the crucifixion narratives that are embedded in the gospels. All right walk me through it
And by the way, this is this is it. This is it. This is this is the exact one
This is a one that well the exact one is in a reliquary and turn
But this one comes from Stera from my friend Barry Wall. She's now deceased
He literally did the Ted talk on the shroud
So we acquired based on our really good friendship
I acquired this from his organization and now we use this as this tool
And so what you're looking at that's 14 feet wide by about three feet seven inches and this is it matches
It's it's a one-to-one scale and it matches
No one else was crucified in the Roman Empire of the way Jesus is
This is the crazy thing the blood type that's on it
Two Jewish hematologists studied the blood hell in an adler
They're Jews
They're they don't have a theological axe to grind
It's type a b blood
It's human blood and the reason the blood is still read two thousand years ago is because this blood has been traumatized
It's from a traumatized individual that when you're experiencing torment and trauma your red blood cells break down and create extra
They secrete it and that's what's kept the blood red all of these years and there's blood all over the shroud type ab blood is
Semitic blood less than six percent of the world's population has it if there was ever a priestly line of blood
It'd be type ab blood so it's human blood. It's not animal blood
It's blood from a traumatized person. I read a recent hematological report
It the blood itself has high levels of ferritin in it which means the crucified man was experiencing organ failure
Kidney failure we believe he lost one third of his blood volume during the flogging and it's high level of creatinine he was dying
So again if you get all this from the blood samples they were in the fibers
These are published in academic journals. So here's the bottom line 102 academic disciplines have studied the shroud
600,000 hours of scientific research
And I believe the shroud is authentic based on their research because I'm not irrational
They all cannot explain how there's an image in the shroud
So the walks like a duck quacks like a duck it might be a duck
So all right
So like you know you you've kind of dipped your tail on the water here. All right walk me through
Everything this here. Okay, that makes compelling. Yeah, that makes people go
Do that that may have been the that that is that's the burial shroud of Jesus. Well, and I wanted and then how
What's the theory on how the image got on all the stuff? Well, and and also I want to pull up
I have a 13-second video come on CS Lewis's bedroom
I had lived in Oxford. I was getting my did my doctorate there had been to the been to the kilns numerous times
And I took my pastor there recently and I had never because again
I didn't care about the shroud so maybe I saw it maybe I didn't couldn't care less at the time
Well during all of this phase of research
We literally go in to CS Lewis's bedroom and we have a Lewis scholar who is guiding us
And they take us into CS Lewis's bedroom and he had a fire. It's a very modest bedroom by the way
But he had a fireplace and above the mantle of the fireplace is the picture of the man of the shroud
And I asked the question. I said tell me about this because I mean Lewis is no Catholic right
And think about it. He dies in the 1960s. He has on raise photo, which is 1931
I think that the next that was like high res for its time in the 1930s and she said oh, yeah
In fact, if we have the video would be cool to pull it up. This is 13. This is this is 13 seconds
This is me. She this is a CS Lewis scholar. We're in his bedroom right now you guys
He says that I literally pulled out my offense. I wait a minute. You got to say that again. Wait. Is that the wardrobe?
Probably
So Lewis kept an image of the shrouded Tyrion and Buddhist mantle pieces a reminder that our god had a face
And of the incarnation
Here it is. We're in the bottom right now
Lewis kept the s Lewis an image of the shroud so every morning his feet hit the ground. He knew our god as a face
Jeremiah for people watching this they'll be like well that that photo doesn't look like this photo
Can you explain that for people? Yeah, so in 1898 you guys
Photographies invented in the 1840s. It's not there's no professional photography in 1898 a Christian man by the name of
Sakhanda Pia decides he wants to take a picture of the shroud
We'd always known there was an image on it throughout church history
But dude something happened in the dark room
So this is before cellular you'd film this is before the days we could take pictures on our phones
I've seen the actual camera in turn. It looks like a dorm fridge. It's massive glass plates
Okay, the exposures took 14 minutes and 20 minutes each there was no electricity. I've been in the St. Giovanni
Cathedral. That's the St. John Cathedral where the shroud is to this day
He builds a scaffolding takes a picture
Goes in the dark room
In the dark room he sees the image of Jesus's face
Which he believes he's the first human being looking at the face of Jesus since the apostolic era and never more appropriately says oh my god
Yeah, and then literally literally oh my god and then he develops it
He's immediately accused of being a fraudster a hoaxer and I've seen the actual photo
And that's what's crazy is the photo negative is actually the photo positive
When you take a picture of the shroud when you invert your phone camera
You see it in all of its rich and amazing detail and we actually have I can show you on our slides here
We actually have an image of it
So this is what we have behind us and then in the dark room you see on the right all that on the right is actually the
Photo positive the negative is the photo positive and this is where all of the details come out in striking fashion
So start walking me through because you know, I'm I'm a dumb Kentucky kid. No, this just looks like a bunch of triangles in line
Yeah, so what am I looking at what makes us go? This is this is Jesus. So what makes us go?
This is Jesus is the image itself
Corresponds with all the ways in which we know Jesus was crucified
We see a man who has been
Crucified and pierced with actual nails in the right spot through his wrists
Not through his palms of his hands. That's medieval Christian art that messes all up
We see I can see on the right like blood you can see the the wrist cross literally and then we see I mean
I don't want to get too technical
But even the way the blood is flowing arterial and venous blood flow matches how he died on the cross
So the way the blood is flowing on his arms is the way in which it should if you were actually crucified
There's blood at the bottom and then behind me as well where the he the feet are crucified through the calcaneus literally right through the
Heal bones and that matches again
What we have of like the another Yehuhaan and poor soul crucify under Pontius Pilate
We actually have his heel bone and the nail going through it and the Israel Antiquities Museum
So all of this is exactly how the Romans killed
and executed
Non-citizens in the first century especially in the Syrian province of Jerusalem
Keep going though. We have a side wound. So the triangles itself. Let's go to the next slide too if we can the triangles itself
So I want you to see this the triangles are just patches the shroud has amazingly survived five different fires
There's scorched marks on it. There's water stains all over it
So you have to deal with two things you have to deal with all the contact marks on the shroud
But then you actually see the image which will get to this
Selfie, but I want you to see the side wound which if we go back to the vertical image if we can
I want to show pastor Josh and Carla. So look at that. Do you see the left side
Right next to the triangle the inner triangle on the upper left there is a fluorescent almost figure eight
Do you see that? Yeah, I do that is the way way to the right of the inner triangle. Yep on the upper upper upper
Torso of Jesus on the left side. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Do you see that? So it's the left side you can see that all
And and what is that that is the side wound through rib five and six
Jesus is
Holy cow
Hold this. What is this guy? This is a replica that we had made
It's not an artifact. It's an actual replica of the spear that would have pierced Jesus through rib five and six
And guess what it matches with one-to-one correspondence
Why does the man of the shroud have a piercing through rib five and six that blood is post-mortem blood
On the shroud that he
Metologist published it
Really? That blood is different than all the other blood on the shroud
John's gospel says blood and water comes out. Yeah
Serum album you limb. I'm probably saying it wrong. He's already separated front because I'm not pretending to be he metologist
He's already separated from the blood in that spot alone
And that blood's different than anything else. Yeah, because it's post-mortem blood
Okay, so it's common. I know obviously Jesus was stabbed on the side. That was not a common track
It's Christmas colleagues. That's right. Okay, so this was unique for Jesus. This is unique for Jesus
Which again you start looking at the probabilities
There there's no there's no broken bones on the man of the shroud now. I want to be careful
He has a separated septum that's he had he definitely has a broken nose, but no bones broke
That's just simply like cartilage
So no broken bones on the man the shroud either way for listeners that was prophesied exactly
Yeah, that was the prophecy that so let's let's keep going you guys more show itself
Just keep this one. These are heavy by the way. Yes, yes, oh hold this all right
You've got and this took my breath away
I think it's John 19 one, but I know it's John 19 and pilot had Jesus flogged
Pastors we go right by that verse
So quickly and it's like we didn't even read it
Jesus is flogged with that raw hide and
Remember the Jews had a rule 40 lashes minus one Rome had no such rule
And I am an expert in execution
So I know how dastardly I mean these guys would often be drunk poor antigeness who we have
Remains from in Jerusalem
He was crucified and then decapitated and they were so drunk they got the chops wrong on his head a few times
So we actually have evidence and
The Bible says the Jesus is flogged that Pontius Pilate has him flogged and do you see these barbells?
We've actually counted up the amount of
Shredding the amount of lashes. There's 372 lashes on the man of the shred on that front and back 372 total
But keep in mind pastor Josh. We don't have the side. We don't have the lateral sides
Because when Jesus resurrects
It's an image of the moment. He literally pass. We'll get to this through the shroud
We don't have the side angles
And so we can estimate
700 of these hit in the man's body
And that's where he loses one third of his blood volume and I want you to see the how short that is in a way
There is a really demonic intimacy to how Jesus is tortured and we know there were two
There were two one was hit the other one was cocking back to fire each time then they turn them around
There's gashes you know that what you just said from the shroud or from a historical sources both
They correspond
So but what I had never seen before was an actual this is a flagrum
This is a Roman whip called a flagrum so that match is being flagged and
We know that
He endures that most died 60% of the criminals just died at that point
So the strength the man I would like about Jesus. He's a man's man
He's 5 foot 10 to 5 foot 11 weighs 170 to 180 pounds. This is a very physically fit man
That's a lot of walking a lot of walking probably swing in a hammer with 20 20,000 miles in his ministry probably walking
If you count all the times he went to Jerusalem
But it doesn't end there so Jesus is flagged and all of this matches we all we're doing is we're we're comparing
We're we're almost doing a where's Waldo right now of
Okay, what is the Bible say and what do we see signature on the shroud? There's another thing that blew my mind
We already have your mind blown. I'm ready max fry a criminologist
Literally studied all of the pollen on the shroud
Okay, it's pollen season. It's Passover, right? It's Easter time. We're all well pollen on our vehicles
especially here in Texas and
He studied the pollen samples 38 of the 58 pollen spores on the shroud only bloom in Jerusalem in springtime
The other money getting me. I dude truth is stranger than fiction
So again, you start saying that one more time 38 of the 58 pollen spores on the shroud that
max fry a criminal a criminologist
Studied and as a whole respected career as a criminologist spent five years of his life studying the pollen gave five years of his life
They only bloom in springtime in the land of Israel
So if you're a hoax or how would you know that if you're a hoax or how would you know type baby blood?
How would you you would have to torture and crucify a Semitic man and then
Do it exactly how the Bible says then you'd have to rub the shroud through Jerusalem on Easter weekend at the time that all these plants are growing
You're starting to see why the evidence the most explanatory power shows that it is Jesus's grave close
And we have the moment of resurrection. We actually may have
scientific proof of the moment of Jesus's resurrection left on the shroud holy cow
Okay, is there I got questions is what is there anything else you're like?
Hey, man, I want to call attention to this. We're just getting started
He's more going there's more hold this very few people have held this
This is no replica
this we just acquired
And this is an actual first century crucifixion now
I'm not saying it's the one he's on Jesus. Of course he'd be very clear
But this was used to crucify enemies of Rome slaves non-citizens in the Syrian province
Do you see how it's bent Carlos and Josh? Yeah
What I had to learn through research was the nails were far more valuable than the crucified victims
They would use the nails again and again and again
Do you know why it's bent? I just did it from multiple use
Multiple use but not only multiple use oftentimes they would want to minimize movement but maximize torment
And they would adjust the nails of the crucified victims while they were dying and being crucified
Can you imagine the agony and so over time this nail has been bent from usage but also from torturing
And Colossians 214 I love this you guys
Paul says that Jesus took all of our indebtedness
All the debt we could never pay back any
Nailed it to the cross
So we don't bear that so many more
So I can I can bring all the faith lessons in with these and what do we see on the shroud
We see four piercings on the shroud two in the wrist two in the heel bones
And that's exactly what you're holding in your hands. So this is that's a six and that is a first century crucifixion nail
First century crucifixion nail from realm from Jerusalem from Jerusalem and it has a square shaft
So without a doubt it's first century and it matches another anyone can look this up
You can pull up the crucified victim called Yehohan and John
Who is crucified under Pontius Pilate? We actually have his heel bone
We have on all of wood actually washer these guys were experts. Yeah, can you imagine?
Through the wrist and then for anyone out there's like well the Bible says hands or it's all the same Greek word
forearm hands. It's just like an MBA. Yeah, literally. Yeah, it's exactly the same thing. Thank you great analogy
So it matches though the heel bone crucifixion nail that we have in the israel and tickities museum six inches long
And just imagine that
That's overwhelming. I didn't know you had that and it's yeah, it is overwhelming and it should be but guys we can't stop there
What else do we see on the shroud there are 30 to 50 puncture wounds on the head the scalp
The back of the head. Can you see those up there? Yes, you can in fact. We have a slide. That's really clear
That guy. Yeah, I pulled that one up. That's helpful
And then we actually have one with red where I've actually made it red
But this is this all of the blood floresces which is fascinating to me
It apps it actually floresces and so what you're looking at is all of the blood on the forehead
There's a blood you know
Literally in his hair all over his face. That's the broken nose
This is like a rendering that's a rendering of it and so
It's based on the shroud based on the shroud and the sudarium the face cloth and so that's perfect. So that one
Is amazing to me
Is it alright if I look around look back here of course dude right here
I'm gonna invert my phone like literally right there. Yeah, so let me
Let me do something right now and any one of you can do this
If you're having android go watch another podcast, but if you have a
There's other churches for you
If you have an android it's colors. It's color inversion for android
But I don't have an android. I'm gonna do settings. You guys do this with me. All right
So what do I go to just settings settings all right and I have the update
So I'm just gonna type classic invert in general. Okay, just under search. Yeah, under shirt classic classic invert
Invert and it'll bring it up and then just press that button your camera will do that or your phone will do that
Turn it on right there. Turn it on. Okay now open your camera. All right
Well look at the shroud
Oh wow and see how it pops, but what I wanted to point out was the back of what the heck
What the heck I had no idea. That's amazing. Wow
That's really can't wait. Can they see this? Can we get this on camera somehow? So yeah, you there you go
You can see how I look at you. You can see about. Hey, yeah
This is what seconda psc's in the dark room and says oh my god
But what I want you to look at guys is the back of the head all the blood on the back of the head
That's the back of the head of this is the back. Yeah, that's the front because I remember it covers him like a ptole bit
This he he's laid and then it's laid over. I see it. I see it germ. I there is blood all over the head
So if if Jesus was wearing a wreath of corns of of thorns or a sweat band of thorns
You would not expect to see there's more blood on his head perhaps than anywhere else
Which is shocking to me
We think actually when he was flogged they probably blinded one of his eyes because one of the eyes is literally
I had a dentist email me other day claiming you can even see his teeth which is fascinating
I haven't looked into that yet somebody probably shouldn't but
This is so the let's follow the chronology since it's Easter weekend
Jesus is brought before pilot
Pilate has him flogged that's not enough
And then he they fashioned a crown of thorns and they put it on his head
Now I have again a PhD in these things and I have never seen a crown of thorns until three years ago in Jerusalem
I brought one to show you guys. Oh come on. This is a replica
Wow
This when I was speaking at the world economic forum on the shroud not lying
If I'm lying, I'm dying my lips to God's ears
I'm speaking and I've blood all over my hand. I was wondering why everyone was looking at me
Well, the the replica I have had pierced my hand really yeah, so I mean it's this is just a replica
Wow wow
Okay, it looks heavy
That is a helmet of thorns friends
Oh, this is what so that is what they would have fashioned and that is
30 to 50 puncture marks that we see on the crucified man in the shroud and that's how he received those they would have fashioned that
rammed it on his head
And then brought him before the crowd and that's where Pontius Pilate and Latin we would have heard at show homo
behold the man
And
If I'm really being honest all of us would have yelled crucify him at that point
No one would be saved this man. We would be in that crowd yelling crucify this man
Jeremiah, is there any other historical source that
portrays the crown of thorns like this because I know historically, you know people picture
More like a
Medieval Christian art like the
Jesus the gay looking Jesus the Jesus with no beer that all comes out of Medieval Christian art
Not a Jewish man who was killed like we see in the shroud which we'll look at some images in a minute
But here's the faith lesson
All of us wander sometimes if God really loves us
And we can get so desensitized to the cross
Romans 58 is what the Holy Spirit when I saw this for the first time but God
Demonstrated his love for you and me and it's in the continuous
It's one of the two places in the New Testament God keeps demonstrating his love for us and that when we were sinners
He sent his best to die for us
Here's what I would say to you know some people wonder why would Jesus wear a crown of thorns
They want to humiliate the man. He's claiming to be king of the Jews. They will humiliate him in every way
Genesis also says that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God a curse fell on humanity and because of our sin
Creation was filled with thorns and distals and Genesis 3
And then so thorns became a sign of judgment
And so at the cross what we see is that that judgment was carried literally on Jesus's head
And so what that means is at the cross our curse became Jesus's crown
And so he willingly took the thorns and the thorns on him
And when I'm when I'm seeing this man, I'm just reminded that what the curse broke Jesus can restore come on man
Well across he does that
And I'm thinking of the fact I have four sons and I wouldn't give my four sons for anyone
And God knows me like no one else
He knows what a sinner I am and he sent his best for me. He didn't send his worst
He sent his best and
So anytime I doubt if God loves me today
I think of these thorns and God is demonstrating it even now what people are watching this podcast
That's why people need to share this with somebody who's hurting right now. Wow
All right, keep keep keep keep keep keep keep on going through this guy. There's a lot to take in man
So let's take in so it's it's so then
Jesus is crucified
He is he can't make it to the cross as we know so we he he's brutalized so bad and in one thing
I love the passion of the Christ the move the film but one thing it gets wrong is they show Jesus carrying the entire cross
There's no way any of man could carry that
So he just carries what's called the petibulum the cross beam and the crazy thing is
Beyond the abrasion beyond the lashes on the back
We actually have a diagonal right top right to left abrasions from him top the right shoulder
Down to the left
Literally the same abrasion marks from him carrying his cross
That's visible on the shroud. Wow. Yes
And jeez
I remember when I was on pierce Morgan
He was trying to catch me in a question that a lot of maybe you're gonna ask it with his body anatomically is all messed up. Why is why are his arms
So long
And man some 22 is just washing over me right now
He said my bones are out of joint
David says that
Profitically and I think it's at that point
When he's carrying the cross that his shoulders are separated even before he's nailed to the cross
Because he can't handle it anymore
You I'll just go ahead and say it you did beat me to the punch okay
So one of the things I was gonna throw at you. I'm just gonna read it
And if there's anything you missed just say here's one of the objections
Is people say man? There's artistic and anatomical issues. I'm gonna read it. Okay
The image reflects characteristics more consistent with an artistic creation than a real barrel
imprint
It doesn't look like a
Like a man wrapped a cloth with actually look and the guy has really long
Arms fingers, especially his right arm in hand. Yeah, and it's there. They literally step you're looking at he does
I agree
It's because his shoulders have been pulled out of joints and you what you're saying is hey
I agree we have Bible verses for that. Yeah, absolutely
Out of joint wow some 22 wow and
Wow, I gave my back to those
Literally he gave we see here in Isaiah and then it doesn't stop there because
This is why what you're doing this weekend at lake point everyone needs to be here
We can get so desensitized to Easter
And I want to show you something else
Not only would we have yelled crucify him. I'm convinced too many believers are way too desensitized to what Jesus at the price
He paid I tell people all the time now that the shroud is an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves you
You think about all the financial terms that are used in the New Testament. We've been bought
We've been ransomed
We've been rescued. We've been paid for
What is the last thing Jesus says a CPA term to tell us die paid in full? That was literally a term of it was a receipt had been given
And let me tell you I'm bringing the receipts on the broadcast today because
I want you to hold this okay
I don't know what this is look closely and tell me what if they resemble
These look like little dice for a game
That's exactly what you're holding and those are not replicas those are actual Roman dice
Made of bone made of bone bone not human bone animal bones
And notice you can even see the numbers. They're from Jerusalem
In the first century. I'm not saying these are the actual dice that we're used
But Isaiah 53 and other passages said they divided they cast lots they gambled for my clothing
And that is exactly what you're holding you were holding Roman dies from Jerusalem. I just got these in the first century
My son jacks was playing one of my triplets was playing with him and we're in the we're in the drive-through of
Canes and he's like dad these stink. I was like son. They're 2000 years old. They're made from bone
That's a dead thing. Yeah, it's like wow they do stink and
Matthew's got well all four gospels tell us that
Well, the author of life is dying right in front of him. They're too busy gambling. Wow first close
Wow, so let's make sure that our hearts are not desensitized wow to the cross wow
All right germa one more thing because hold on. I got to go back to this one if that's okay, please Josh
So because you mentioned, you know, because everybody thinks this is like really long. Yeah
It would imply that the you said there were two guards
Yes, yes, it would imply that every single time
That the guards were hitting Jesus in the back or I'm assuming anyway everywhere
There would be sprinkling off the blood on his end room. Yes, it would have splashed all over him
And so man like you know just
You know first Peter chapter one verse two says according to the four knowledge of God the Father in the sanctification of the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ
And for the sprinkling with his blood
Make grace and peace be multiplied you it's a it's a sif then Jesus's enemies
Are hitting Jesus and yet the response of Jesus in return is his blood sprinkling over them in the same way
The Bible says that you and I were enemies of God and because of Christ
We've been reconciled because of the sprinkling of his blood over us
Man, that's a that's a picture of it. It is what happens with us wow at the cross wow at the cross
Oh, okay
So you want to keep going here? I want to answer. There was another part of your question that I need to crush real quick
What was the other part of your questions?
So anatomical in the image reflects characteristics more consistent with an artistic creation in a real burial imprint
I have to kill this for a minute. So
in 1978
33 scientists
Sturped shroud of turn research project
Get permission not from the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church did not have ownership of the shroud until the 1980s
That was something I had to get through. I thought this was some Catholic relic for 2000 years
And I get an allergic reaction to Catholic
Yeah, we're Protestants. We're out of Catholic relics. I got 13,000 negative comments for saying that on Tucker
So I'm ready for all of them. So I do I because I'm a historian
I you know
I saw the three wise men in the cathedral at colon give me you know the Thomas's pinky. No
This is an artifact because we can actually study it and test it with the sciences
So the stirrup team took several years to publish their findings and what did they prove this is the first time
I've used the word proof
Science proved there is no pigment. There is no dye. There is no paint. There is no color
And they were inconclusive about how there is an image in the shroud
Okay, so actually I want to get to this so tell me like all right
That's the question
So if it's not dye or figure theory on how the how did the image even get on this shroud?
This is where I got shroud red pill. This is where I became a shroud. Let's go. Come on
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The best scientists in the world and let me be clear
I've met with many of these scientists. I'm talking about weapons scientists
I'm talking about rocket scientists. I met one when we were doing our tour event in southern California from the jet propulsion lab
He's like oh, yeah, everything he said that you're it
He was working on the Mars project
And these are scientists Eric jumper John Jackson physicists who are at Los Alamos sandia laboratories
They work on atom bombs
They get the weekend with the shroud and they prove that there's literally no paint no dye no no brush marks
They cannot understand how there's an image in the shroud the best scientists in the world cannot explain it
So I fly to turn italy and
I meet with a guy named Paulo Delazaro
He is a he is a physicist
And he works at a neo laboratories. Anyone can look this up. He spends another five years of his life studying
How do you change with no pigment paint dye or brush marks? How do you change a
A made of flax essentially a linen shroud so they they literally grew a shroud
And they beamed their laser for five years at it and they were finally able to
Basically change the coloring of an and to leave a mark with that because otherwise you would scorch it if it's too hot
It's too powerful to just burn it up, right
They were able to basically change the the size of a postage stamp not 14 feet behind us
And he publishes
This went viral when I posted that on my social 34 billion watts of energy
Traveling at 140th of a billionth of a second to leave an image on the shroud
Is what Paulo Delazaro said light. So we're talking about energy cold energy
And this is the moment of resurrection. So the shroud is not a death cloth. It's a resurrection cloth
So I'm meeting with Paulo and I'm like, so are you saying it's Jesus. He's like well, of course
34 billion watts of energy traveling at 140th of a billionth of a second reminds me of all these passages
Because think about it Jesus every time he manifests himself in the New Testament he manifests himself as brilliant lights
The new heaven and the new earth someday will have no need for the sun. That's significant
I'm working with that for listeners. Yeah, trace that real quick
She got transfiguration his face was changed became like lightning
Obviously, yep. Yep, you got revelation. Yeah, but you have Paul and I have filmed on Roman roads at noon day
Okay, and in the land of Israel curved their first century roads. It's hot. I'm sweating
Paul says that he has an experience of seeing the resurrected Christ and if you follow the book of Axie says it was brighter
Than the noon day
Sun, so anyone getting chills yet
So what we have in this residue
What we have is this signature on the shroud of the moment of Jesus's resurrection that is so powerful
It literally left a selfie mark on it gracious. This is Jesus's selfie
So the theory is that in the same moment in the same way that at the transfiguration
Hey his face became like lightning
It kind of a hey upon resurrection that same light of glory manifested itself and left that that's the and it pushed a
2750 pound tomb out of the way
gracious, but let me show you this is animated. Okay, so play this for me. I want you to see
This is a shroud now hit play. Okay
So
Wow, that is what happened that slow motion, huh, so Jesus didn't like stand up like Lazarus and take his grave close off
His body emanated at the moment of resurrection through the shroud. What makes you say that there it is look and by emanated germaya
You literally physically well because Jesus appeared here in rooms and then disappear he walks you redore
So the body has new capabilities as ours will in the resurrection. Yeah, it is not it's not
This world does not have any control over him anymore, and so I thought he would like stood up and pulled off
No, so when John does anyone have a Bible John 20 we need to look at John 25 through 8
So we created this
Shout out to Stargate Studios and Malta. So this is what John would have seen
I got John so John 25 through 8. Can you read that? Yeah, verse five and stoop into look in
He saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in
Then Simon Peter came following him and went into the tomb
He saw the linen cloth lying there and the face cloth which had been on Jesus Jesus's head
Not lying with the linen cloth, but folded up in a place by itself
Then the other disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in and he saw and believed
He saw and what did he see the linen cloth
Fascinating and you guys all dude. I'm just putting this together
So your son he may have gone in and seen that's what he imprint on the and I believe it was still glowing
Now this is speculative. Yeah, this is not his I don't I haven't proven this. I'm working on an article on it right now
Because he goes to the tomb early. There's no electricity. I mean this is this is an animation
I mean I doubt that the son would have reached it because they would have gone down into the tomb
I've been again in tombs
Toms or this was a rock hewn tomb
I've well, I've been in the actual tomb you wouldn't we wouldn't have had sunlight like that coming in
I believe the face of Jesus was still glowing on it when he saw it
Why don't you think about the verse to see see and believe about that verse
the
Give them the ability to see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
Dude the lot I'm gonna say that more time the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
I had never seen that before it was not until chronologically they saw so this and then I do want to clear
This may be one of your tough questions for me, but I want to clear something up
There are so many fine Christians and I've gotten this email a thousand times. That's why I wrote it in my book
so
They say Jeremiah John's gospel said linen strips plural and they think that Jesus is a mummy
They think that he was mummified. So let me clear this up to help find Christians like me who get confused
by this
If we didn't have John's gospel the only word that's used ascended which is behind us fine linen cloth singular
John's gospel gives us the face cloth Sudarim which we can talk about but then it also uses this term
Athonia that's plural so I want you to see the we see strips
Around the singular shroud at the head the feet
um, I was leading the tour recently with a bunch of college kids and they all take pictures of themselves to sleep
You know with their mouth open and then post them at each other and bully each other and all that
So they actually would do that. There's a job and they just to dignify the body
So when you're dead you're not like, you know, they would actually so Athonia would have been probably there as well
That's where the strips yes, that's where the strips come from so we're not doing anything
Unbiblical here. We're we're actually exegeting the scriptures. We're letting scripture interpret scripture the four
Gospels so the answer is yes
To all four Gospels and that's what he would have seen which is so helpful. Okay, so like I was looking at this book
By the way, this this this this is great. Thank you. Okay, first of all for listeners
Tell the book is the Jesus discoveries 10 historic finds that bring us face to face with Jesus pretty recently published right yeah
Yeah, like in the last two weeks. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm already looking at it. Congratulations. It's awesome
We're we'll stick it in the show notes and I think we'll have some copies in the bookstore
But so you got this thing on pay. It's on pay 30 probability this blew my mind. Okay, so yeah
This is in so talk me through and don't we have this? Yes, we have the probability thing there are the two slides right there
20 and 30 this because this is not and then I want to start throwing at you. Let's go the objections. Yeah, absolutely. So
Here we see all of the different wound patterns that match the crucifixion narratives embedded in the Gospels
I want to share something with you
the most evidence that we have for antiquity about crucifixion comes from four sources Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
Okay
crucifixion was so agonizing and so it you're relevant to the Roman Empire because no Roman citizen was crucified
So we actually the best description we have for antiquity of crucifixion are the four Gospels
Tacitus doesn't really get into it swatonius
Diocasius Josephus a little bit, but as far as the description of crucifixion
Also, this is why if we want to invent a religion
We would have never invented it the way the gospel writers did I have an article or I have a chapter in my book body of proof
What the gospel writers should have done better if they were inventing a false narrative rather than a real one
Because everything they said flew in the face of
What the Roman mindset would have accepted and so look at this look at the scourge marks
You can see it the feet wounds the there's that side wound. I was pointing out the blood angle the wrists the elongated arms the wound pattern
There's those shoulder abrasions Josh. Do you see those right there from carrying the particular them on the left? Yeah top left. Yeah
His body is in rigamortis. This is important actually
So he's probably in the tomb 39 hours that's mark 1240 they say give us a sign
He says I'm going to give you one sign. I'm going to give you the sign of Joan my resurrection from the dead
So Jesus body does not decay. There's no decay on the shroud
So rigamortis usually lasts 39 to 45 hours. What does that mean Jeremiah?
Rigamortis is when your body stiffens and so his body would have been very stiff
That's why we even can see that like the buttocks is even like I mean
It's like he's flinching all over his body his muscles are tight
Because his body his head is elevated his knees are up because his body is in rigamortis at the moment of his resurrection
And there's no bodily decay
oozing on the shroud my body will not see decay
Sacrifices and offerings you did not require but a body you prepared for me
So there's no body bodily decay on the shroud and so that's what we see
So now let's go to the probability so fast forward barbarus
I meant I'm in turn and I have to meet this mathematician named Bruno
Barbarus and all the credit to him and the irony of his last name Barbarus is not lost to me at all this Easter weekend
He did a calculation. He is a mathematician
He has been with the actual shroud one over 100 times like if the president of Italy wants to see the shroud
Bruno shows you the shroud
He's given 4,000 lectures on the shroud. He's a mathematician. He doesn't have a theological axe to grind
He assigned this probability
That when you look at the all of the correspondence of how how the man of the shroud is crucified and you compare it
To what we see in the gospels
He gives it a probability of one in 200 billion that it is not Jesus
Wow, so I this is on my YouTube channel like I'm you know, I'm from Kansas. You're from Kentucky. I'm from Kansas. I'm like so
Professor barbarus. Are you saying it's Jesus? I write about this in the book and he almost gets frustrated and he's at time
He's like how can it not actually does it?
He was like him a lot. That's how I'm gonna say the numbers forced me to believe it's him of course it is
Wow, I was like oh I feel stupid for asking that but thank you
He said didn't you hear me one in 200 billion chance? It's not is he a believer?
Yes, a devout believer
Because he's a rational man, right a rational man, and so that's why I said at the beginning
I believe the shroud is authentically the shroud of Jesus because I'm not irrational
I know a lot more about the shroud than I do
How my car will work to drive me home today and I have no problem getting in the car and driving home
I've no clue
How the air conditioning works the transmission. I know some of the our audience does but I know a lot more about the shroud
All right, go back to this real quick
Yeah, is there anything you want to point out here? Can I ask a question go right ahead? All right
So like okay, but what about this like what somebody what I'm assuming people would say is yeah, man
But like somebody would just read they would just read the gospel accounts
And they would know what to put into the shroud right to match the
You know, so it's marksman's error, right? Exactly
They would know what to do so the probability thing didn't work
The cumulative data that you would have to add to that then is okay
You would have to actually crucify someone to do that. They would have to have type baby blood
They would have to have pollen from the first century. You'd have to have a
Side wound in the exact spot between rib five and six another another thing that people would definitely get wrong
If you're a hoax or as you would have made Jesus much shorter
Because people often say oh people were only about five foot one the women were like four feet eleven
We actually have people crucified taller than Jesus
In Jerusalem from the reign of Pontius Pilate the tomb of Yehohanan
I think it was he was six eleven something like that six six to six eleven
So the fact that Jesus is five ten to five eleven
According to this you wouldn't have made that up you wouldn't have known that you would have actually guessed wrongly
So again all of the cumulative data
Is easy to respond to that and just say well no actually
And again, no one else crucified their victims this way you would have probably been more influenced by the fact that there would be no
Crucifix there would be no crown of thorns his legs would have been broken
It would not have lined out. Well, I'm just I'm I'm a dumb Kentucky kid, but I'm even thinking here for a second
All right, so like if the theory the skeptics have is this thing was created like the 1300s
1260 to 1390 based on carbon dating. Okay, I'll get to that in a second
I'll get it and see your beaten made of the punch here
So and what you said is if somebody had done that then they would have based all of this on medieval right art
And to your point earlier all medieval art for instance with the crown of thorns. Yes, all medieval art makes it like a wreath and through the palms
Yeah, yeah, that's right all of that and that's right and but on the shroud it's a it's a help
So there's things like that's like man
It was a long beard as long hairy as a beard that's been plucked in the front. Okay, so
So don't you have something about the face? Yes, okay, so these are all what we call the icons
These are all and that's just a fancy word for paintings of Jesus
That are very old the christ pantocrotter one in the top right corner is the most famous
That's it st. Catherine's monastery that dates to the mid-sixth century
So 550 something like that top right top right of that of what we're looking at
So all of these look the same to me they all and there's over 200 by the way
I couldn't fit them all in one slide, but like hit that what is the source material that all these people are using
For the shroud or for the for the face of Jesus. Let's pull it up now
bro
How would they know?
They had to have source material
Before the fifth century fort six century and they all match this and dude
I've got some more show and tell now this is super crazy what I have right now
Okay
This this you have to go over to the Hagia Sophia and in Istanbul to see but mine's better than the one they have there
Come on man. I have got a
Roman solidus in my hand. It's solid gold. It's from the late seventh century. What I want you to look at the face
That is holy cow. What does that look like? Yeah, it looks like that
Yeah, looks just like that. So wait is there a way for me to hold this up with the camera somehow
There you go. Yeah, it looks like a it looks like an iPod
Well this
Well, they're good news is there's pictures of it in my book. Yeah, we'll show as well in post here. Yeah. Yeah
We'll show this story. We'll help us out here. This is a true story
I had just acquired a bronze coin. This is a hilarious story. I've time to tell it
I just acquired a bronze coin of hair of the great
And all the coins in Jesus's aid this is important for people that love the Bible. They're in the genitive
Herado Basileu of hair of the great the coins likeness it literally belonged to them
So there's a whole faith lesson in there when Jesus said whose image is this give to Caesar what Caesar
But give God your life because my image is on you. That's a different story
So I want to show this friend of mine bob chitwood shout out to bob chitwood helps me all over the world
And he and I said meet me on Wednesday night at church at Prestonwood and I will I'm going to show you my coin
He's like, okay, well, I got something to show you too. I was like all right
And so we meet in the pew and he's like
During during COVID I got into buying gold and he said I have this coin
And I want you to just look at it and tell me what you think
And he hands me dude the Justinian Roman solitists that has a strike on it that it's almost mint condition
Which is why I said it's better than the ones the Higgies Sophia. He handed you that he hands me this okay. I said Bob
Look at what you're looking at
He said what I said, what does that look like he's well that looks like the shroud
I've never seen that I've never noticed that before I said dude
This is a Roman solitist of Justinian that Alan Wagner
A professor at Duke University
Pointed out that there are 200 points of correspondence between this coin and the face of the man in the shroud
Far beyond what's acceptable in a court of law so what's the theory on how that the theory well first off
That's in the 600s. It's the first coin with Jesus on it
There's a whole thing in there. He's battling the caliphate which is Islam is killing all the Christians they can and his last stand is
I'm going to put Jesus on the money because he's Christ Lord of all and he puts himself on the back as a mark of humility
And but Wagner gets this from Duke University you can look this up and he sees 200 points of correspondence between that face
So again, it all goes back to the same source material in this all
Antidates that predates the medieval dating by seven 800 years. How do you explain that okay?
So that leads me to this objection
So I'm going to read it to you
So I guess it was in 1988
Yeah, there was like a few labs this started doing carbon dating totally corrupt can't wait to talk
Okay, I've never heard this one before. Yeah, I'm ready for it. I'm just okay. So in 88 hold my coffee. Well
Okay, I got you. I got you some lab started doing carbon dating
They're doing carbon dating on the thing and they date it to I've got it right here to the 13
That's exactly it to between 1260 and 1390
AD
Which coincides with the shrouds appearance in France in the 14th century what say you doc
utterly corrupt data based on not what I'm saying the
2019 Journal of Archaeometry published by the same Oxford University that says now
You cannot use that carbon dating because based on the raw data which the British Museum suppressed for 27 years
My friend Tristan Cassia Blanca just published a book on this he did the equipment
He's a Frenchman he did the equivalent of a and we just spoke at the International Shroud conference together
He did the equivalent of what we call an America like a freedom of information act took years
Got the raw data finally of what they actually tested on the shroud
And they tested the one corner that all the scientists from 1978 said don't test this don't test the corner
It's been patched you're gonna find cotton fibers like
Because even this shroud we I don't know if you notice we have gaff tape on the corners
It's already falling apart on the ends and this is a replica
So obviously the church is smart enough to know hey this thing's kind of fraying on the edge
So we're gonna patch it with cottons which anyone can see under a microscope
But the rest is fine linen
So they supposedly take the top left piece the rayus fragment and they test it seven labs are supposed to test it only three do Oxford, Zurich and Arizona
One guy is awarded a five million dollar endowed chair
You can look this up for yourself after he writes it on the chalkboard and sits there like this 1260 to 1390
The corrupt British Museum that I've been in a thousand times
Suppresses the raw data for 27 years so according to my buddy Tristan
What they found and what the journal of archaeometry points out in 2019 is the sample that they tested
Is not homogenous with the shroud itself they may not have even tested the shroud what because it's a corrupted piece or if they did
It's one of those patched pieces
So if we were to line up if we were to stack up all the evidence against the shroud the only evidence that I ever hear is this carbon dating
And maybe I'll hear new stuff today with these questions
But you cannot use that that is not acceptable anymore. You need to update your research. When did that change?
2019 the journal of archaeometry and then with this freedom of information act
We're now we can actually see that the samples they used are not homogenous with the shroud and then there's new testing happening in
2024 2025 well, and then that's the other I get into the five ways on my book that the shroud has also been dated
The Institute of crystallography and this has been crazy to learn all this y'all
Wide-angle x-ray scattering waxes dating
Remember I said there we have lots of other shrouds from the land of Israel
Has compared the date of a shroud without a doubt dated to the 80s 70s
With the shroud of turns we have a shroud from misata and then we have the shroud of turn
They have both been getting old together at the same time
They can tell the degradation on the shroud that it's been getting old based on waxes dating for 2000 years
Wow, so it's been getting older for a lot longer than 700 years. Wow. Okay. Show me the do the face thing real quick
This is a shout out to my friend Doug Powell an awesome scholar an apologist
This is what he created a mid-journey
Look at that. So this is based on the shroud and he did and like Jesus may have looked like that
Absolutely did he's he's an olive-skinned Jewish man long beard long hair
Don't read the Corinthians passage about short hair
Don't don't read that at me don't I suggest that at me no Jewish man had short hair
And didn't have a little beard and and and this is cool the way Doug did this
Well, why don't you want to ask about it? But he inserted just two things in the mid-journey
The image of the shroud and then the Christ Panto-Crotter icon just those two things and then I give more of this on my Instagram
The whole story of it and that's what becomes the cover of my book holy chaos. I think it's so
Striking to see that's likely what Jesus's resurrection face looked like. Okay, so I am gonna read the first review
Okay, that was one of my questions. Let's do hair like see together
So out of context. So two yeah, two biblical objections to this number one
Dr. Johnston doesn't this violate the second commandment against having images. Hold my coffee again
Number one number two what about first Corinthians 1114 where Paul says does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair
It's a shame to him. So Dr. Johnston. Yeah, obviously
Jesus wouldn't have had long hair and God wouldn't have preserved a quote-unquote graven image
All right, thank you for these great questions
So I as Barry Schwartz the same thing and again, I want to appeal to him because he gave the Ted talk on the shroud
And then he later published an awesome journal article
I I was the editor of a journal called the the city when I was a professor at Houston Babish University
And I asked him to answer the five top of objections and I summarized that and give him all the credit in my book
And I said isn't this a graven image the second commandment just for the benefit of our audiences
You will have no other gods you're gonna worship a tree god or anything you made and oh Barry said and this is a Jewish man
Barry said oh, that's so easy to answer
The shroud is not man-made so it's not a graven image
It's a moment of resurrection. Yeah, no no man made the shroud so we're in by the way. I've had the shroud
Literally this replica all over the world with me. I think we put 125,000 people through our exhibits last year
I've never seen one person worship it. I've never seen one person pray to it now. Can I tell you this?
I got on my knees
In front of the actual shroud and I didn't pray to the shroud or worship it
But I had a moment where I said Jesus make me a more ardent defender of the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ
Please I rededicate my life to you right now
So it's like taking people to Israel
So the Corinthians passage if you've been to Corinth they had short hair there
They looked like Romans if you studied Jesus in Judeaica himself
No Jewish man, and I answer this extensively. They all would have had beards. They all would have had longerish hair
And there's no correction there needed because again Paul is writing to the church at Corinth
This is I've been to Corinth you guys probably have too many times
This is not a Jewish community. This is a this is a Roman area
So very very simply and again, you know Paul took the Nazareth out he shaved his head
He did some interesting things
But there's there is no
Evidence that any Jewish man in the 20s and 30s AD would have had no beard and short hair at all
Interesting to your point what you said earlier
So we already mentioned that CS Lewis strikingly that this really surprised me this CS Lewis had an image of it so much
That's right and to your point that is why in he was so he wrote a letter to an Anglican nun
About the shroud and he said I'm gonna I'm gonna read him
This was CS Lewis letter back to her. Thank you so much for the head of our Lord from the shroud
It is grown upon me wonderfully. I don't commit myself to the genuine is basically going. I don't know
Yeah, yeah, I'm back then totally understandable
He said one can ever be quite certain but the great value is to make one realize he was a man
And once even a dead man
There is so much difference between a doctrine and a realization and he had that photo framed
So that he would remind himself this was not some abstract doctrine like a real guy
Dot on a real cross for the real you and if you really give him your life
He can really change it forever and that's powerful. That's it man. Yeah, okay
So yeah, okay, you got those so those that you got those objections. Yeah, those those objections anymore
Okay, yeah, I gotta do a couple of this. All right. What about this Dr. Johnson? Yes, you can just call me JJ
I'm trying to think something
JJ hey, but but there is simply no historical evidence of the shroud before the mid 14th century in fact
Bishop Pierre something I can't pronounce a French name. Yeah
Who had jurisdiction of the church where the shroud was located told the Pope the shroud was a forgery
Yeah, and said the previous bishop identified the artist. I've responded to that completely in a blaze article
We should put in the show notes. Yeah
Down the rabbit hole, okay, and I don't want to lose the audience
But it is not a forgery at all in their reasons he wrote that that I literally just blast out of the park
But can we bring up we actually have a map of the provenance?
This is the term of the shroud. We know that Eusebius references the face cloth the shroud is
Yes, the face of the greatest churches early church. Yeah, he was there at the council of NYSEA
So if we play this this is the route that we have historically of the shroud
We know it's in the desa and 544
How do we know that based again? Thank you to Eusebius the early church historian and others who talk about the fact that there's this face image cloth at a desa
And it actually gets lost and refound yes gets lost and refound any desa that's 544
It's interesting how it it it races away from Islamic conquest in Asia Minor
It's in Constantinople shot out to the Greek Orthodox who never get credit
They probably protected the shroud the eastern church for a thousand years before the catholic church ever had it
This is why I always say the shroud belongs to the unified church doesn't belong to the catholic church
And belong to the eastern Orthodox probably belongs to the unified church of the Lord Jesus Christ
And then it goes to Athens we know all this historically
It's cool though. You see Naples during World War 2
Hitler was fascinated with the shroud and thought it would give him power to win
So that's a whole story in and of itself how literally at the abbey
In Naples the monks there protected the shroud from Nazi SS when they came to try to find my kind of monk dude
I would like those they had no idea was in the altar that they were literally going around they get
They're like just keep praying and singing in the Nazis left and they were looking for the shroud
So that's only time it's been out of turn since 1578 turn is in Italy nor they're in Italy
And so again there this is the very clear provenance that it goes way before shamblery france leery
We actually have it far before that but again, I always tell people this
It's no it's only been known as the shroud of turn since the 16
Since the 1578 the 16th century it was known by different names before that thread history
Just like my beloved Kansas City chiefs were once known as the Dallas Texans
It had different names to it and so this helped me understand it. I'm a visual learner
And again back to the pollen you guys
The other 20 pollen spores that we have on the shroud are from all of these places
Are you serious?
I took five years to prove that to go all these places and match up the pollen. No way
That's stupid. I know. Wow. That's incredible. So basically you're saying hey man. This is just a lie
Yeah, it's simply a lie that there's no historical evidence of it before the 1400s
Get infected with a little history and
Easily answered that's fascinating
All right, we already did the artistic and anatomically. Oh, by the way, I want to say this where you're talking about constants and opal
One of the things is really interesting and I heard this on one of the other podcasts
One of the things is really interesting is that I love about this is this both a death and resurrection. Yes
Peace. That's right. So which is interesting because major world religions
Yes, Contra islam obviously islam says the Christ was not crucified
Yeah, so islam's claim is that Jesus was a prophet, but he was not crucified
I think the Quran literally says they crucified him not yeah with an exclamation point
So they deny obviously the crucifixion and then obviously Judaism denies the resurrection
Well, you got right here is essentially you would you would have proof of both
death
And resurrection and burial too. I would add that you have death burial and resurrection
In one artifact and nothing outside the Bible does that except the shroud that addresses the atheist
There's an English claim there that the body could have been stolen right yeah, no with no not not would Jewish burial traditions
Not in non-war time absolutely not so I would about this doc
JJ
The but but but JJ the shroud fits perfectly into a period when relics were widely produced and circulated
Why should I believe this is any more authentic than pieces of the quote true cross? Yeah
Or a minute now wait or many other holy objects now first of all me and Carlos are doing a little research before this
And we found some old Martin Luther quotes about relics that are too funny not to read
So I'm going to read these and then you can respond to objections. So by the way
Don't get offended. No, he's not going to get it. I'm not a captain. I'm kidding. I'm kidding
This is team Protestant all the way right here
So first of all for anybody that doesn't know a product Martin Luther obviously kind of kicked off the Protestant Reformation
5,500s
Was ardently
Passionately against relics so I'm going to read some amazing Martin Luther quotes
What lies by the way the other thing I'll say is Martin Luther had a very spicy sense of humor
Yes, he did very and he had a brewery
In his basement that his wife
Led for him and he had a library in his bathroom. I've been in it. So the man in his bathroom had a library at his toilet
What's funny about that is apparently what she would apparently he had some form of like
IBS like yeah, so that's why I had a library. Yeah, the library built in his
Toilet like he's there's a literal Martin Luther quote. I'll put you right here this like
I break wind in Vittenberg and they hear it in wrong. Yeah, like that's a literal
Luther quote. So here's some Martin Luther quotes for you
What lies are there about relics? That's a real quote by the way look that up. We look that up
What lies are there about relics one claims to have a feather from the wing of the angel Gabriel
And the Bishop of Mayans has a flame from Moses burning bush. How does it happen? This is amazing
How does it happen that 18 apostles are buried in Germany when Christ only had 12
I'll give you another one. Here's another one. These are funny
If all the piece he's mocking the Catholic Church's ways doing
If all the pieces of the true cross were collected together, they would fill a whole ship. Yep. Yeah
The gospel testifies there was only one cross one last one
There are enough nails from the Holy Cross. So by the way for listeners if you didn't know this little church history
especially in the early medieval period
tons of Catholic churches would claim to have some relic that dated to the actual events
And so he's saying is they were just making up tons of them
So here's another one. There are enough nails from the Holy Cross and various parts of the world to show a whole team of forces
So JJ
It seems like man this just arose right in that period when all these relics were happening and man
Aren't we Protestants? We're against relics. No, we're well
We are absolutely. There's 20,000 relics and they have different degrees
Knowles and I were just talking about this last week and here's the interesting thing about the shroud
It's not a relic. It's an artifact because it can be tested with the sciences
And there's one other artifact of the Catholic Church has the Sudarium of Oviato
Which we have an entire chapter that Doug Powell contributed to my book
That's the face cloth the Sudarium that also has type AB blood on it
No image, but it matches blood type which is fascinating. We can jump into that. But I want to answer this
Martin Luther is in a time where to be a priest these these men were utterly corrupt
Don't think like your modern pastor today good man
Living moral lives first Timothy three Titus one commitments. No
These guys were some of the most corrupt people that you could meet
John Tetzl is popular at this time who said famously every time a coin in the coffer rings
A soul from purgatory springs. I've been to the home of John Tetzl
And so the relics it's interesting Frederick the wise protects
I don't want to geek out on the reformation
But Frederick the wise is the protector of Martin Luther
And he he's the one who actually has Luther abducted so he's not burned at the stake
And then protects him at the Vartburg castle where I've been
And it was interesting by the end of Martin Luther's discipleship and Frederick the wise's life
He had actually put away all the relics he owned because he was growing in his love for God's words
So just a little side off there. So I agree that I'm not I'm not here to defend Catholic relics of any kind
And especially how they were misused and abused to
Give people absolution and salvation and pay for forgiveness and pray for the dead and all anti-biblical
But again, I've realized the shroud is an relic. It's an artifact
It's been tested by the sciences and that's what you're saying is man
Honestly, it's just not true
That the evidence points to arising in the medieval period during this era of relics
Exactly. It's just not what the evidence is and I'm not the only one
I mean there is a growing number of biblical scholars and archaeologists that feel the same way that I do based on the
evidence
Let me ask you two quick final questions here all right
So let's just say let's say some day it comes out that man actually it was a host. Yeah, all right
someday somebody finds an old journal from
You know 1360 whatever it is and some guys like oh man. I did it. Yeah
Yeah, that kind of thing
Does that affect your faith in the resurrection at all not one bit why not because
Again, their evidence is so powerful that Jesus died and rose again
You cannot explain the suffering in the world without the resurrection of Jesus Romans 8 18
Jesus foretold it and mark 831 mark 931 mark 10 33 and 34 on the third day
Jesus messionizes
Hosea 6 2 on the third day he will raise us up
Jesus adembrated resurrection
Mark 5 Luke 7 John 11 gyrosis daughter the widow of name son
Lazarus he he showed he had power over death
Fourthly all of the archaeological findings that we have shows that the gospel narratives
smack of authenticity
Number five the resurrection was not what his disciples expected
This is where a lot of people lose out they don't realize this is probably why Judas fell out of the boat
4 q 285 the Dead Sea Scrolls community
Says that when the Messiah shows up he's going to kill the Roman emperor the cateen and he's going to proclaim himself
God cleanse a corrupt priesthood vanquished the temple and
That was the Messiah they were looking for this is why Peter and Matthew 16 23 says Jesus you can't go to the cross
And he literally says get behind me say I'm going to the cross
So his disciples didn't expect it and then how do you explain the conversion of Saul of Tarsus?
What we can say is that Jesus appeared to those who loved him
Jesus appeared to those who were indifferent to him and he appeared to those who were hostile to him
None other than his own family
Mark 3 his family thinks he's nuts
Mark 6 he's basically called a bastard by his you know this this this son of a Nick with this illicit child
John 7.5 not even his brothers believed on him
This is why we have the appearance to James which gives me chills right now even thinking about first Corinthians 15.7 and he appears to James
James is like a lot of our family and friends. They're the most skeptical of Jesus and he was he was humiliated by his brother
I mean think about it and yet James goes from skeptic to believer
I would have loved to be at that appearance tradition by the way
I could see him appearing to James at the at the at the home workshop, you know
bro
Check out my side. They got me good. Check out this dude
Here I am and here's what we know about James
He becomes a pillar of the church according to Galatians Paul sinks out his wisdom
James Peter and John
He's the pastor of the world's first mega church. So don't hate on mega churches. They probably James probably had
20,000 in this congregation if you count up the book of Acts conservatively
He dies according to Josephus in 8062. This is antiquities 20
Believing his brother is the Messiah
So I have four sons and you have to ask yourself this question critically
What would it take for you to believe your brother was the Messiah and to die believing that right my boys don't I break up civil wars every day
Okay
They don't think they're brothers the son of God and then I don't even have time to get to Saul and then finally
Everywhere the Christian message goes
Societies improved humanity is rehumanized. This is a message the gospel that's unstoppable
So I haven't even mentioned the shroud and I've just given you seven reasons that are my body of proof of why without a doubt
I believe Jesus for us from the grave and it comes out the shroud wasn't it. I'll say okay
Let's keep going. Yes, right
man
There's a bunch of dudes in particular like
You know, we we're hearing more and more about especially like long distance truckers and bunch of guys who were like, man
You know kind of trying to figure out the Jesus thing, but you know, I maybe I don't know
And what would you say to somebody who
They're hearing this and even while we've been talking and they've been sitting in a truck or working out on a treadmill
And like while you've been talking there's been something rising in their heart. Yeah, I think it's time to bend the needle
Yeah
What would you say that guy right? I want you to pray the prayer that the center prayed that Jesus heard
Lord
Be merciful to me a center that's enough
You don't need the right words or formulaic Jesus. I trust that your payment was enough for me on the cross and that you rose again
I believe that so Jesus I trust in you to forgive me in my sins. That's all you have to pray
You don't even need to pray just believe it and the in the proclaim Jesus is Lord Romans 109 and you'll be forgiven
There's a second person I want to talk to this Easter weekend
Maybe you're coming to Lake point this weekend for the first time without someone you love you've lost a loved one
You've lost maybe a child maybe a husband a wife a best friend
The beauty of the resurrection as we can talk about our loved ones in the present tense because of the glory of the resurrection
First Thessalonians 4 we agree, but we don't agree without hope John 1419
Jesus said because I live you will live also
Two dozen times were given that promise. So therefore we can be strong
We can be vigilant
Always abounding in the work of the Lord 1 Corinthians 1558
Because we know that everything we do for Jesus matters because of the resurrection
Dr. Johnston Jeremiah
Would you please pray for the people who have been listening? Absolutely. Yeah, man
Thank you Jesus for the power of the resurrection and Lord Romans 8 11 your word says the same power that rose Jesus from the grave
dwells and every one of us is believers Lord
We don't know if it's 34,000 billion watts or what but we know it's a power we can't quantify
It's a power that forgives our sin. It's a power that takes us out of addiction
It's the power that brings our marriages together and helps us be better parents and so Lord
We want to saturate ourselves and resurrection power and so Lord the the whole purpose of this broadcast is not been to make us smarter
It's been to help us know you better to have a face to face
Look at you Jesus. We say with Paul and 1 Corinthians 13. We want to see you face to face
We say with David your face Lord. Well, I seek we say with John in Revelation 224
Jesus we want to see your face
Clearly and this broadcast is given us a glimpse Lord a blink a twinkling
And we can't wait to be with you face to face and so Jesus thank you today for the powerful truth of your resurrection
And Lord, we pray that you bless all the services at all the campuses at Lake Point this weekend that God your spirit would be here
Lord, I pray people wouldn't just invite people. I pray they would bring people and also those that aren't even
Here in the DFW area that they would watch online and get friends and family and I've watched parties this Easter
And say hey, come listen to Pastor Joster's message and no one to service is Lord. We pray in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. You're my thank you. Thank you guys
You
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