SISL8 – I’m Troubled and I’m Tempted; I’m Going to Fail – Struggles in the Spiritual Life with Fr. Timothy Gallagher – Discerning Hearts Podcasts

DescerningHearts.com, in cooperation with the oblates of the Virgin Mary presents,

struggles in the spiritual life, their nature and their remedies,

was Father Timothy Gallagher.

Father Gallagher is the author of many best-selling books on the theology and spirituality of St. Ignatius of Loyola.

He holds the St. Ignatius chair of spiritual formation at St. John Theological Seminary in Denver, Colorado.

Struggles in the spiritual life, their nature and their remedies, was Father Timothy Gallagher.

I'm your host, Chris McGregor.

Welcome, Father Gallagher.

Thank you, Chris, so always happy to be here.

It is such a good opportunity for us to be able to visit with you to discuss struggles in the spiritual life,

their nature and their remedies, and we've been talking about spiritual desolation in our previous conversations,

at least the last few, and now we are encountering, and that's something kind of different,

but something a little bit more pointed in the area of temptation.

There is. There's an overlap in all of these, but it's good to go through them because each has its own quality.

Yeah, let's just jump into the next one. In the same way we've been doing, we'll start with an experience,

and we pick up with John. John, who we saw in the, at the very beginning, time has passed,

and John is living a good spiritual life.

But we open with John sitting in a doctor's office and waiting for the results of a biopsy.

There's been a small growth on one side of his face, and they did a biopsy,

and John is there to get the results. And the doctor tells him that the biopsy was inconclusive,

and they'll need to do a second biopsy. And when he sees John's anxiety,

he clarifies for him, this doesn't mean necessarily bad news. It just means that we need more clarity than we have.

But understandably, John leaves somewhat troubled and worried about all of this,

and that evening he sits down with his wife, Jenny, and they talk this out.

She knows him well, and she understands, perceives his anxiety, and she repeats what the doctor said to him.

This isn't necessarily bad news. It just means we need more clarity,

and it will take two weeks before they get the results of the biopsy.

So what we're describing here is a situation of, on the non-spiritual level,

just very understandably, John is worried about this, and worried about where it could go,

and what it might mean for the family, and his work, and so forth.

So he tries not to be anxious, and he is faithful to his prayer, but his prayer is restless and troubled.

He prays with Psalm 23, and that gives him at least some temporary peace.

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.

And then we have, John, this is now five days after the visit with the doctor,

I continue to pray to listen to the Bible app on my way to work and to pray before retiring.

So he's got the main thing really right here.

He is faithful to his prayer as he goes through this time of anxiety and trouble.

But it's still unsettled this evening, I hardly wanted to pray.

Once again, I was uneasy and disturbed.

I was alone in my study, and there was the phone.

I know what happens when I'm feeling like this, and I go on the phone.

I didn't do it, but I was very tempted.

Now this is the quality that we want to highlight here.

So again, John is getting everything right here, this is a good man.

He speaks with his wife, which is perfect, he is faithful to his prayer,

biblical verses, encouraged him.

But in what has become a time of now spiritual desolation,

no energy for prayer, and just that sense of trouble in his heart,

there is the pull toward low and earthly things.

No shame, no surprise, and he makes the right decision.

He doesn't reach out for the phone.

But he feels the temptation to do it.

And then four days later, why doesn't prayer bring me peace?

Why do I continue to feel agitated?

I worry about the family, about my health, about what the doctor will say next week,

about why I can't overcome this churning when I pray.

And I want to speak with reverence here, but we've all known that experience.

You and I, all of us, you know, in something,

something someone has said or a situation that we're facing,

and we sit in our quiet place of prayer, but the churning is not at all quiet.

It just keep replaying the conversation and playing out the way it could go,

if I speak, another time with this person, and all of these kinds of things.

So that's what John is experiencing here.

Now, all of this is leading into a description of a quality of spiritual desolation,

as Ignatius is going to say, we can feel disquieted or troubled by various agitations and temptations.

And that's exactly what John is experiencing here.

Why I can't seem to overcome this churning even when I pray.

The feeling is that others find peace through prayer.

Jenny seems to, but that I can't.

I wonder which wrong with me?

Now, you can already feel, you know, the touch of the enemy here.

These disquieting questions and something lacking in you or there's something wrong.

I really hope that one of the fruits of going through all of this will be for us

that we can pick up all the more quickly on these voices of the enemy, these discouraging lies.

When I present this in front of groups and I have a PowerPoint,

I make the biggest x that I can make over these things, and it fills the whole screen,

and sometimes I'll put a no with various exclamation points after it,

and spiritually that's what we need to do.

I wonder which wrong with me?

Am I missing something in the spiritual life? Of course not.

You're a man who loves the Lord, but whom the Lord is permitting to go through

on the non-spiritual level a certain trial of an issue of health.

So that's a very natural human response, and you're doing everything right

and responding to it.

As I've said to the way he prays and sharing this with his wife and so forth,

not giving in to the temptation to the low and earthly things,

why can't I feel God's closeness? Well, we can already answer that,

because God is permitting some spiritual desolation,

which the enemy has brought into a non-spiritual vulnerability.

And why when I so need God and try to pray do I feel these temptations

to turn to the phone, the internet, social media, even alcohol in ways that I know are harmful?

And will I ever get through this? The feeling is that this will just go on.

So we'll approach that with reverence, because with different nuances,

you've all been there.

And what John is experiencing is this kind of spiritual desolation

in which the heart is troubled by Ignatius as various agitations,

what's happening, what's going to happen to the family,

why doesn't my prayer bring me peace?

And then various temptations which mingle with the spiritual desolation.

Now, one thing we want to highlight here,

this mention of temptation that Ignatius raises here.

At this point, now Ignatius has highlighted the two.

I'm going to call them garden variety tactics of the enemy,

which are temptation and spiritual desolation.

Garden variety does not mean that they're not potentially very harmful,

obviously if we give into temptation,

and if we believe the lies of spiritual desolation

and begin to regress that they will really harm us.

And obviously that's the enemy's purpose.

But I call them garden variety in the sense there's nothing dramatic about it.

This is very ordinary, universal, daily spiritual experience,

which as I said earlier is precisely why it's so important,

because this is the stuff of the spiritual life.

And in the tapestry of responses we give to this up and down,

spiritual experience, the shape of our spiritual life is forged as we do that.

These are the two garden variety tactics of the enemy.

Again, no shame to experience them, no surprise, be aware, understand,

and reject in this case.

Temptation is a deceptive suggestion of the enemy.

Beth, why don't you just let evening prayer go

and just pick up the phone and call Maureen?

John, you're feeling really worried here, it's hard to even pray.

Maybe just pick up the phone for a few minutes.

But in a way that John knows in these circumstances

is probably not going to go well.

Why don't you, you can let yourself have that, do that,

see that, doesn't have to get too far out of hand and on and on.

So temptation is a deceptive suggestion of the enemy.

Spiritual desolation, as we've said, is a heaviness of hearts

on the spiritual level.

So discouragement, sadness, anxiety, loss of hope, and so forth,

on the level of our spiritual lives and relationship with God.

What Ignatius wants us to see here is that when our hearts are experiencing

the discouragement of spiritual desolation,

the enemy's temptations are very likely going to float in and out of that as well.

So just alerting us to that and all of the examples that we're given,

that we've given thus far really illustrate that.

You know how in the discouragement of desolation there is also the temptation

to make choices that are not good for us spiritually.

Now, one last thing I want to highlight in John's experience

as he concludes his journal entry for this final day,

he writes, and will I ever get through this?

The feeling is that this will just go on.

It was like this yesterday, the day before,

and it is today, next week, next month, next six months,

and on and on and on.

And when the desolation, I'm personifying the voice of the enemy here,

when the desolation is saying to us,

what you're experiencing now, you know what?

It's not going to change.

It's just going to continue.

If we believe that lie, then the desolation gets very hard to resist.

But if we call to mind the truth that Ignatius asks us to call to mind

when we're experiencing spiritual desolation,

that this desolation is going to pass,

that consolation is going to return,

and it's going to return much sooner than the desolation wants me to believe.

If we can call that to mind,

if John's sitting at his desk can call that to mind,

you can see how enormously strengthening that is to get through the desolation

just to know that it won't last forever.

And in fact, it's going to end a lot sooner than it wants me to believe

that engenders a lot of courage and a lot of openness.

So, one more experience to spiritual desolation.

John is making all the right choices.

And let's say he does speak again with Father Reed

and they go through all of this together.

He's really growing in this struggle against spiritual desolation.

That important aspect of remembering,

going back, remembering those times,

and trying to recall when you were not in desolation.

And also to remember that it's just a part of the growth that you're experiencing.

You know, it's almost twofold to remember what it was before,

but that as autism may sound,

this is probably a good thing.

And the fact that you're moving forward,

that you've come to this point,

and that not that desolation is a good thing in itself,

but that, you know, we're on the way,

we're on the journey and to hang in there.

Yes, exactly right.

You know, just like temptation,

spiritual desolation, as a worker of the enemy,

it is a bad thing in itself,

but God will permit us to undergo these tactics of the enemy at times,

because if we are aware, understand,

and we reject these tactics of the enemy,

we will grow in very blessed ways in this spiritual life.

I'm just remembering the university companion of St. Ignatius,

also canonized St. Pierre Favre,

who, until he met Ignatius, he was a very wonderful man.

He was a priest to everybody loved,

just to meet him or to hear him preach could change lives,

but he was very scrupulous, nervous, prone to discouragement.

And Ignatius, in the last years of Pierre Favre's life,

asked him to keep a spiritual journal which we have.

And in there, he reflects back on the fact

that he would experience this from time to time,

and he calls them goads, which never allowed me

to remain static in the spiritual life.

You know, God permitted them.

And also, in that same paragraph,

writes that every time I experience one of these struggles,

whether immediately or not long after,

God supplied the remedy, causing me to continue to grow.

So, yes, there's a reason why a thing that is bad in itself

has a work of the enemy God may permit us to experience,

because if we are discerning and reject it,

we will really grow in this spiritual life.

I think of someone who goes for an annual checkup

with the doctor and the doctor pokes and thumps and takes blood.

And eventually, you get the results

and the doctor says everything's normal.

And you walk out feeling like a million dollars.

Well, if you experience times a spiritual consolation,

joyful times when God feels close

and there's energy for spiritual things,

and at other times, experience spiritual desolation,

he's discouraging tactics of the enemy

that everything's normal,

which is a good place to be in the spiritual life.

What does matter as self-keep repeating

is to be aware of what's going on.

You know, to be able to name it,

the spiritual consolation of the good spirit

and open our hearts to it,

or the spiritual desolation of the enemy

and to use the tools to reject it.

But that we experience this is absolutely normal.

You're not the only one.

There's nothing wrong with you.

It's every disciple of the Lord.

And that's, as I say,

that's a good place to be in the spiritual life.

When we turn to struggles in the spiritual life,

their nature and their remedies

was Father Timothy Gallagher.

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Thanks and God bless.

A prayer of St. Ignatius of Loyola.

Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,

my memory, my understanding,

and my entire will.

All that I have and call my own.

You have given all to me.

To you, Lord, I return it.

Everything is yours.

Do with it what you will.

Give me only your love and your grace.

That is enough for me.

Amen.

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We now return to struggles in the spiritual life,

their nature and their remedies,

with Father Timothy Gallagher.

Father Gallagher, we continue

with our conversations about spiritual desolation

and now we encounter Julie.

Her situation, I have to say,

I mean, I think we can all say we've experienced

something of what she has.

Yeah, really all of this, as we've been saying.

So we have a series of emails.

We have Julie at a time when she's really growing

in her spiritual life.

And these are emails to her really good friend,

spiritual friend, Emily.

So Emily has encouraged her to go on a weekend retreat

that Father Reed is going to give

and Julie accepts the suggestion.

And she goes on the retreat

and she finds it a very blessed experience.

There's peace there, the talks are inspiring.

And she comes out of the retreat with a new desire

to really live holiness in her vocation

as a wife and mother in the lay state.

And after, especially when a Father reads talks,

she goes and sits before the blessed sacrament

in the chapel and she writes,

I felt close to God.

I also felt happy in a way I've long wished for.

So reverently what she's experiencing there

is spiritual consolation, work of the good spirit.

And as she sits there before the blessed sacrament,

she makes two decisions.

One is that she's going to adopt the suggestion

that Father Reed made that they consider praying

a shortened form of morning prayer

and evening prayer from the liturgy of the hours.

The shortened form might be five minutes, something like that.

And she's intrigued by this

and the way he speaks about this.

And she downloads the app

and it's made very easy for her

because it's all laid out for her

and she appreciates that.

The second decision that she makes

is that Emily has been inviting her

for some time to consider joining a group of women

most of the mothers who meet for brunch on Saturdays

and they're just friends,

they enjoy being together,

but they're all friends in the Lord

and they all know that

before their time there is finished,

they're going to be sharing on a spiritual level.

And Julie has hesitated to be a part of this

but in the grace that she's experiencing in the retreat,

she tells Emily that I'd like to begin going to that.

So she does begin praying morning prayer

and evening prayer,

it's a new thing for her,

praying with the Psalms,

it's not something she's ever done,

but she likes it.

And it's not difficult as,

because as we said,

it's all laid out for her in the app.

And then about 10 days after that exchange,

she sends another email to Emily

and in the meantime,

she has gone to the Saturday morning brunch

and she's really enjoyed it.

It was easy to create relationships with

and she could see friendships developing out of that.

And it was wonderful to be able to share

the spiritual things that are becoming important in her life.

A week later,

we have yet another email from Julie to Emily.

And she had been telling Emily that

she was even thinking of inviting her husband Bob

to join with her in praying morning prayer

and evening prayer.

And she was getting close to that,

but she tells Emily that the preceding evening,

she and Bob had a kind of tense conversation

over how Julie is handling their youngest son, David,

especially in his struggles at school.

And it's difficult for Julie,

such as a place where she feels like

she's not a good enough mother

and just troubled by this.

And then it gets complicated because Bob realizes

that he's hurt her

and he's trying to make amends for that.

And it just doesn't end very well,

the whole conversation.

Okay, Reverend Lee here,

what we're describing

is another experience of non-spiritual desolation here.

It's just a difficult relational moment

that is not yet resolved,

and it weighs on Julie.

10 days later, writing to Emily,

I'm sorry that I missed the brunch on Saturday,

so she didn't go.

I won't make excuses.

I could have come as far as time goes,

but I'm still discouraged

about the conversation with Bob.

It's not resolved yet.

It affects my prayer too.

I haven't been faithful to morning prayer

and evening prayer.

And when I do pray them,

they don't have the same life.

So again, let's not be hard on Julie.

We've all been there.

But in a non-spiritual desolation

that is now moving into

a spiritual desolation,

she is making changes

and things that she'd planned to do

in her spiritual life.

That she doesn't go to the brunch.

It's getting hit or miss

with morning prayer and evening prayer.

I'm beginning to wonder

if that spiritual growth,

and she puts quotation marks around growth,

I'm beginning to wonder

if that spiritual growth

from the retreat was as real as I thought.

It doesn't seem to take much to undo it.

Okay, now we're beginning

to get the quality of the enemy's

spiritual desolation

that Ignatius wants to highlight here.

She's losing confidence.

Okay, for the first time that note,

she's loved what's happening.

The growth has been wonderful.

Some spiritual desolation

is coming now into a non-spiritual vulnerability.

And the enemy begins to question

what, try to lead her to question

whether she really,

all that growth was really real.

Five days later,

I know it would have been good

to be there on Saturday,

but I felt that I just couldn't do it

so she missed this brunch again.

What if Julie had gone

to the brunch a week earlier

at this time?

Very likely that would have

ended the spiritual desolation

that she's experiencing.

So of course, the enemy wants to get us

to change what we planned

before the desolation begins.

But I felt that I just couldn't do it.

I've been a Catholic all my life

and my faith is important to me.

But I've never been as committed as you

and from what I see,

the other women at the brunch.

I thought that the retreat had changed that.

And you know that I've been trying since.

But here I am in the same place again,

going back on the resolutions

I made on the retreat.

Maybe I'm just not meant for a deep prayer life.

Maybe the way I've lived my faith

until now is the way I will be.

So at this point, the enemy's tactic

is really clear.

And again, what a wonderful thing that Julie is

able to describe this in writing

and she's willing to share this

with her friend Emily.

But the enemy's tactic is really

laid bare there.

It's what Ignatius calls lack of confidence.

Make your efforts.

Try.

But you know yourself.

You know, it's not really going to change.

Yeah, it'll last week, two weeks.

But you know that you're going to fall things

or you can't move beyond this.

You can never take that step.

This whole dynamic.

And it's really, really helpful

that we can identify that lie of the enemy

where we feel it and firmly reject it.

Two weeks later,

so Emily has written to Julie

in an encouraging way.

I appreciate your encouragement.

You know that it means a lot to me.

If I live my faith as much as I do,

part of it is because of you and I'm grateful.

Now, watch the spiritual desolation come in here.

But I think you see a potential in me that isn't there.

If it were, why have I lived the spiritual life

so superficially all these years?

You can just hear the enemies' insinuations here.

And why, when I try to grow,

do I always wind up back at the same place?

I'm up then so quickly down.

You and the others seem so much more stable and so faithful.

I must be different.

I'm not happy about it.

But there it is.

Okay, so this tactic of the enemy

is just getting clearer and clearer.

And then a final email one week later.

I find myself thinking like this.

You believed you were growing in love of God.

Look at you now.

You're not faithful to prayer.

You don't get along with your husband

and you don't take good care of your son.

You've been fooling yourself.

You thought that the retreat was a time of grace

and you thought that God was calling you to grow spiritually.

Look at how poorly it's all going.

How do you know that that was God?

How do you know that you heard His voice

to judge by the results you didn't?

Okay, I'm going to stop there.

Because as these emails progress,

the enemy's tactic just gets clearer and clearer

and clearer and it gets heavier and heavier.

You thought you were growing?

Yeah, that wonderful experience.

How do you know that even really was God?

How do you know that you really heard Him?

No one she prays in the chapel

and feels God's closeness and the peace that

she hasn't felt in a long time.

Yeah, all that grace that you found in the retreat,

how do you know it was even real?

And all that growth, you know,

that you were so happy to share with Emily.

Look at where things are now.

Your prayer is falling apart.

You're not even much of a wife

and get along with your husband.

You're a poor mother.

You can't even take proper care of yourself.

And you can just see the snowball going on

in all of us.

And now if I may ask this reverently,

can we recognize that dynamic in our own experience?

And I'm sure that we all can.

This is where Ignatius will say,

the sooner you can stop it,

you know, before the snowball gets speed

and mass and weight,

the easier it will be.

But the enemy's specific tactic

in this type of spiritual desolation

is to undermine confidence.

It's that lack of confidence

that you essentially make your efforts,

but it's going nowhere.

Where you are is where you're going to be.

The best you can hope for is to be

a mediocre mother,

mediocre wife,

mediocre husband,

father.

You can hope for salvation,

but you're never going to be really holy

in your vocation.

You can try to pray,

but you're always going to this kind of stumble

and bumble in your prayer.

That's the best you can hope for.

When I have groups,

I say, no, hands raised now,

but how many of us have heard those voices?

Yes, we all have.

Sure, I have, and all of us have.

And this is where the freedom can come in.

What if with Emily's help, let's say,

or maybe Julie speaks with father-redom,

she's gotten to know through the retreat,

and she can get clarity on what's going on here.

What's happening here is you're growing spiritually.

Of course, you and Bob love each other deeply.

Of course, you, you love your son,

want to be the best mother that you can.

You can just unmask all the lies in this.

And then the enemy's tactic is undone,

and she'll go forward solidly.

But what we want to highlight here

is what the enemy's trying to do.

It's that lack of confidence.

And then finally, Julie raises another question.

I have all the failings that I've mentioned,

but we say that God loves us.

Well, I was doing my best to grow closer to God,

to love God, and to live my vocation more fully.

Then this happens, and it all falls apart.

Couldn't a God who loves me spare me this.

Why does he let this happen to people who tried to love him?

Very good question, and a very important question.

Okay, so the enemy brings this lack of confidence to Julie.

But you'd love to see Julie do is speak with her husband, Bob,

together about this, he's on the same spiritual journey.

Maybe speak with Father Reed as well.

After the retreat, he'll certainly be happy to meet with her,

if she asks for it.

And together with that help, Emily as well as her friend Unmask,

the series of lies that are in the enemy's undermining of her confidence.

The truth is exactly the opposite.

It's precisely because she's growing that the enemy is bringing this tactic.

And God is permitting it, and this is her final question.

I'm doing the best I can to love you, Lord.

Why do I have to go through this darkness and this struggle?

And Ignatius answers that there are certain situations in the spiritual life,

in which, again, if we're aware, understand and reject the desolation,

certain kinds of growth will come that normally, as I've said before,

through resisting spiritual desolation.

Sometimes God will permit spiritual desolation,

so that kind of like a wake-up call to maybe areas of slippage

or negligence somewhere in the spiritual life.

Maybe my prayer has slipped somewhat, maybe not even a conscious choice,

but in the busyness of things.

And then God will allow some spiritual desolation,

and oh, it's time to pick that up again.

And sometimes when there is no negligence or fault at all,

and this seems to be Julie's case here, she's doing everything well,

God will still permit spiritual desolation,

because as we go through the trial of spiritual desolation,

we grow in strength.

We all love those people that we sometimes meet,

generally in the latter decades of life,

who are pillars of strength for assault.

You know, you have the sense that they've seen what life has to offer

and not going to be shaken, and they're deeply rooted.

We love them because they help us to find peace,

you know, as we go through things in life,

how do you get there spiritually?

It's by going through things like what Julie is going through here,

and learning to be aware of it, understand it, and reject it.

Sometimes Ignatius says God will permit the trial of desolation

so that we can grow in resisting it.

If it's true, and I'm convinced that it is,

that for most dedicated people,

which will be most of the people,

maybe all of the people listening to this conversation,

the real obstacle in the spiritual life,

the spiritual desolation,

you know, when we get discouraged and disheartened.

And there's a lot of it around today.

If that's true, then growth and the ability to resist it

as one of the great graces God can give us,

and that Ignatius says is why God will permit a Julie

or any one of us had times to go through desolation.

And then also he says sometimes God will permit it

because it's hard to be complacent or self-satisfied

in the spiritual life when we're dealing with spiritual desolation.

And it roots us in that rich biblical space of humility,

which is Ignatius tells us the seed bed

or the place out of which all the other virtues will grow.

So there's a very clear and encouraging answer to Julie's question.

And let's say she meets with Father Reed,

Father Reed will share this with her

and with a deep and understanding

of the kinds of things we're saying here,

Julie won't give up, she'll go forward.

Father Gallagher, as you talk about the actions of the enemy,

again, with clarity of words,

saying Ignatius is so good.

And the thing is, when we're experiencing this,

we're hearing accusations.

We are hearing lies.

And as we've learned from our spiritual tradition

and through scriptures that's the enemy's primary tactic,

he is the father of lies, he's an accuser.

And when we hear that, we should have a pang that says,

wait a minute, that's not of God.

And then we also know that the gentle loving God

will be the one that gives us that strength,

that ability to turn towards that.

As we continue to journey in that,

we should identify it right away.

I mean, this is an accusation.

I'm being accused.

Wait a minute, I know that.

My husband's, my spouse has said that's a lie.

Those are the types of things that we,

just to be real clear, we have to,

as part of being aware, isn't it?

Yes, that's a biblical underpinning

of what Ignatius is doing here.

So, typically, as you say, the enemy is the liar

and the father of lies and the enemy is the accuser.

And in all of these experiences,

a spiritual desolation, you see both qualities of the enemy.

Now, here's an odd thing to say of spiritual desolation,

but the beauty of spiritual desolation

is that it is all a lie.

It's like waking up from maybe a hard, difficult dream

and you open your eyes and the sun is shining

and you say, oh, it was just a dream, it's not real.

And that's what happens when we live the discerning life.

If we can identify and unmask these lies of the enemy,

well, just keep saying that the captives are set free

and as Paul writes in Galatians,

for freedom Christ set us free,

he never intended that we be held hostage or captive

to these discouraging lies and tactics of the enemy.

You know what you've said brings to mind

just another aspect of this,

which is to say, if ever in this spiritual life,

you feel defeated before you begin.

Be very sure that that's a lie of the enemy.

I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

Nothing is impossible for God.

And God is a manual who is with us constantly

to the close of the age.

So if ever, that's another aspect of the enemy's lie

that by even make the effort, you're already defeated.

No, you aren't.

Though I walk in a dark valley, I fear no evil.

You are with me with your rod and your staff

that give me courage.

New Chippy, you get again?

Amen.

Thank you, Father Caligar.

Thank you, Chris.

You've been listening to Struggles in the Spiritual Life,

their nature and their remedies,

with Father Timothy Caligar.

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I'm your host, Chris McGregor.

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For Struggles in the Spiritual Life,

their nature and their remedies,

with Father Timothy Caligar.