Something’s Happening Here! Minnesota and Iran with Janine Sieja and Stephen Zunes

Good Monday evening, everyone. Welcome to Moment of Truth with Amy Chen Mills. And this

is Amy Chen Mills, your radio show and Moment of Truth podcast host. And I am here

tonight to help us all make sense of the endless circus of chaos and cruelty that is our

nation at the moment. As of today, it looks like we are indeed a nation at war with Iran,

and to get an in-depth analysis of the situation, we will be speaking with local author and

Middle East experts, Stephen Zunas. But first, a conversation with an ordinary working

mom in Minnesota, Janine Seja about her experience with ice chaos, abductions, and even murders

in her city, becoming an activist, her fears as a mother, and what is happening on the ground

there now. There's a lot to cover, so let's get started. I believe that Janine Seja is

waiting in the clean feed wings to talk to us. Janine, are you there? I am. Hi Amy. Hi Janine,

it's been a long time. Thank you so much for joining us. And I will explain a little bit how I know

Janine. But first, I'm going to introduce her as an ordinary working mom and software developer

who lives in the urban heart of the twin cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minnesota. She is

mother to an adopted child of another skin color, and was not an activist before ice came to town,

at least not an industry activist. Full disclosure, and here's how I know Janine, we were

sorority sisters at Northwestern University, and I asked her on the show after seeing her

Facebook post about what it was like on the ground in Minneapolis. So welcome so much Janine and

thanks again. It's great to be here. Yeah. Thanks Amy. Yeah. I thought I would start by reading

just parts of your post. It was a long post. I recommend people go and find it. I shared it. A

lot of people shared it. I'm just going to read from the beginning and the very end to introduce

the conversation. You wrote, hello from still occupied dystopian Minneapolis, where I cycle between

anger, grief, and befuddlement. Here are the observations of a city dwelling American moderate

liberal white Catholic woman a couple of months into what I will charitably call my new normal.

My city remains under siege by ice in the largest immigration enforcement campaign ever

carried out by the Department of Homeland Security. My heart is cracked open by the families ripped

apart the humiliating and brutal tactics of ice agents, the conditions of detention, and of course

the horrific executions of two kind decent humans. And then you go through a lot of points and

experiences that you have gone through there in Minneapolis. ISIS actions aren't about immigration

enforcement. They are a flex bordering on fascism, a destruction of norms, a mass violation of

human rights, civil rights, and yes, the constitution. I can assure you the federal action has not

made me safer for your happier or more prosperous. No ice has brought me in my family danger, fear,

and grief. No matter that none of us is even a stated target of the government. Minnesota has

been swept by the most unnatural disasters. And like a natural disaster, there will be a long

trail to recovery. And so I ask, is this the best we can do in America? My answer is surely not.

I'm not giving up on decency, kindness, and democracy, and the ice age now.

So I think that was a really powerful piece of writing that you put out. And I thought, well,

wouldn't it be great to really hear what's happening now? But I thought maybe we could start at

the beginning because you told me on the phone that you weren't really an activist to begin with.

So maybe you could walk me through how you were thinking and feeling when Trump got elected and then

was inaugurated in early 2025 and just sort of what happened when ice came in. Sure. Yeah, I guess

I would start even before that from the perspective that I would call myself a recovering journalist.

I was a editor for much of the really part of my career. And there are definitely times when I

miss the platform that I had through journalism. I've always been interested in civics and our society

in making things better, but never political, as you say. I think as a journalist, for mainstream media,

I was always objective and reporting both sides, editing from the perspective of both sides.

But living here in Minneapolis over the past few years, and of course, you don't have to go far back

to think about George Floyd and what happened in our community at that time. It has just sort of snowballed

for me personally. Like you said at the outset, I am nothing but an average citizen here in Minneapolis,

a typical working mom. I have nothing special about me, but you cannot help living here and seeing

all of this unfold and just want to and actually do step in to help to bear witness,

to speak up, to use whatever voice you have, even if it's just a post on Facebook.

I think it's simply what any human in my position would do in 2026.

The business about when Trump came in a year ago and all of that, I mean, honestly,

I think that he's doing exactly the kinds of things that he said he would. I don't think anyone

should be surprised. I certainly wasn't surprised early on in the term that things have gone the way

they have, but at the same time, what's happened here in 2026 has been kind of shocking and it is

that shock that I think has gotten a lot of people off the sidelines and a lot of people revisiting

what they think is their role in a democracy, their role in a community, their role,

you know, just their role in society. It's not all of us. No one's coming to save us.

Yeah. Were you at the Medille School of Journalism also?

I was. Okay. Did you do four years there? Because I shifted over to the film school and

communications, but did you stay at Medille the four years? I did. I came in believing I wanted to

be the newspaper editor and I left as a newspaper editor. Oh, there you go. Four years later.

Yeah. Good for you. And then you're also reminding me about George Floyd's killing in Minnesota

and the police response and Derek Chauvin and the whole situation was, which was huge in 2020.

I mean, I feel like we're all like bordering exhaustion with everything that's happening.

And so, but I know that that's relevant and we'll get to that when we get to the response in

Minnesota because I have heard several times now that the way that people organize themselves

on the ground in Minnesota during the Black Lives Matter protests after that killing

was really important to the response to the ICE invasion of Minneapolis. So, and I don't know

how much you know about it, but we can revisit that. I wanted to start with just you hearing that

ICE might be coming in this thing about voter registration rules, which the media doesn't actually

seem to mention that often. Like when ICE first went in, I thought it's this about Tim Waltz

running for Vice President. What is this about? Tell us what you saw in terms of why they were coming

and, you know, how people, how ICE started to show up there. Well, it started out, you know,

and I have friends and family in other cities where especially Chicago would be a good example

where ICE had surged. And so, you sort of knew what the playbook was and you'd seen it play out,

but the scale, the number of agents compared to the population size here was different. And I don't know,

it feels like it's partly retribution against our governor. It feels like it has to do with the

voter rolls request. It feels like it has to do with the fraud investigations that were, you know,

that are ongoing in the state, but have really nothing to do with immigration per se.

Is it about the media about the daycare centers and so forth? Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. So, so on the

surface, there are a lot of explanations for potentially why Minneapolis and St. Paul were

targeted, but the reality on the ground was it started out seeming like, okay, it's going to be

our turn just like it was Chicago's turn in other cities, but it very quickly took on this much

darker dimension and suddenly you're hearing about teenagers getting pulled over randomly

profiled for the way, you know, the way they appear and protesters really being manhandled and not,

you know, just it felt different pretty quickly. And then of course, before very long we had the

tragedy with Renee Good and it's just it's like, it's like you just entered a different reality,

like the whole world just sort of flipped around and I still don't know how to make sense of it,

but I'm trying. Yeah. So what like just for you as an ordinary working mom, you're going about

your day, you're hearing that ice is coming, you're thinking, I don't know if I'll even see them

or not or what. And then did you start bumping it like what what did you see as you were going to

and from work or to and from the grocery store? Sure. Well, you started to see already neighbors kind

of saying, Hey, let's get whistles. Hey, let's be alert to this. Let's let's pay attention to

what's going on. You started to see the vehicles moving through the neighborhoods. I started,

you know, in my particular situation, so my son is born in Ethiopia and he is 17 years old and

does not have a sense of risk or concern or safety. He is a US citizen.

That's never been, you know, a question. But within the adoptive community here, you started to

hear fear and you started to hear parents talking about, well, what if my child is pulled over

by ice or stopped by ice and taken into detention? And sure, it might get sorted out later, but

is that an experience we would want any of our kids to have? No, of course not. So you started to

have the fear and you started having to have these conversations with your kids saying things like,

all right, let's roleplay. Let's pretend I'm an agent and I say something provocative to you

or I start questioning you. How are you going to respond? Do you have your passport photo handy

on your phone so that you can quickly show the US citizen to try to deescalate anything that

might happen? Like, again, the world has turned upside down as you're thinking this through. You're

thinking, what country am I in? What planet am I on that I'm having to have these kinds of

conversations and they're not based in fantasy. They're based in what I'm hearing from my neighbors

and what's going on around. So that was kind of the beginning of it, just this awareness of

hey, people are being abducted down the street at the local elementary school in the school pick

up line. They're people are just being taken and there are troops everywhere and our kids are

traumatized and they're afraid to go to school or to go whatever because something might happen

to them and that is a really big scary shift in how you live your life and like you say,

going to the store or going to work, you know, moving about, you just feel like you don't recognize

you don't recognize any of it. It's not strange. Wow. We are talking to Janine Seja who is

described herself as an ordinary working mom in Minneapolis who has an adopted son who is a

different skin color from. Where did you say he was from again? He's born in Ethiopia and Ethiopia

and we're talking about what's been happening in Minnesota. You're listening to 89.5, 89.7

and 90.7 FM, K-squid for the Central Coast in Monterey Bay, many voices, one station. I want to

get back to Minnesota. So then people started to organize. Actually, you're saying that they were

sort of, well, what I've heard, I don't know if you've said it yet, but is that people were a little

bit pre-organized. People were already on signal chats from the Black Lives Matter protests.

And so how did that start to unfold for you? The response from the community.

So I'll speak to my little neighborhood which is Brynmar and it is in the heart of Minneapolis.

We have a little public elementary school. If you blocks away, there's a middle school close

to there. We have a little market and a coffee shop and a gas station. We're Mr. Favino showed up one

day. Gosh, and we chased him out. But you did? On the side. Were you there? Or did you just hear about

this? I just heard about it on signal and saw the videos. Oh, we have to hear from where I live.

What happened? We have to hear about this. He was trying to fix a flat out with some of his

henchmen and our neighborhood wasn't having any of it. They didn't want him to use our facility

in that way. So that's kind of actually in a microcosm how it felt that suddenly you have a group

of neighborhoods who are saying a group of neighbors who are saying we're not letting this happen

in our neighborhood. Were it to the extent that we can? We are not going to allow people to be

snatched off the street. We're going to speak up. We're going to use our whistles, use our words,

use our signal chat. And you're right. There were some pieces in place from Black Lives Matter and

just a strong neighborhood association to begin with. But suddenly you're seeing

QR codes going up around our little businesses and saying, get on signal, do this, do that.

Know your rights, cards. Here's how to get involved. And it seemed like from there,

people found their lane. They found their way that they felt like they could contribute.

Like my next-door neighbor would patrol a lot, just getting his car patrol around,

keep an eye on things. He'd be the one more likely to be at the gas station when Bavino rolled in.

For me, it was, it is, it continues to be grocery support for those families through the

elementary school. So we spun up a system really quickly where some teachers at the school figure

out which families need groceries and when it goes out on chat. Everybody who's like me who's

a volunteer, we just step in on the days that we can do it and say, okay, I'll shop for this

family of six and I go to the store. I bring all the groceries to the bookstore, which is like the hub

of the neighborhood now. And then other other volunteers who are teachers come and get the groceries

and deliver them so that the families are protected. They're not interacting with random people

like me. But I go in by the food because I want to make sure that these families who

are stuck in their homes and afraid to leave that they're not also worried about what their next

meal is going to be. You know, it's a small, you know, it's a small act on my part, but I think it's

important for those families to take one thing off their list of what they're afraid of.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Everyone's got to eat. And that is probably a huge relief for families

to know that food is coming, even if they are stuck inside. Okay, I have to circle back to

Bovino because I'm trying to imagine, here's this like federal officer, right? Someone from high up

within the DHS who's come to, to, you know, lead this whole operation of 3,000 ICE agents and CBP

agents, right? And how did people chase them away from the gas station? How did they get him to leave?

Just general harassment. Okay, just general. I mean, I, I, there have been so many different forms

of protest. It's so interesting. And as you pointed out, I wouldn't consider, I wouldn't have

considered myself an activist before all of this. But I have been so inspired. The events that I

have attended, the way I've seen people show up and just the creativity that goes into, you know,

how do we make our point? Sometimes it's really large scale, you know, the, there was a protest

in March that had 50,000 people downtown. And, you know, so some of it is really big scale. And some

of it is just working the streets, you know, keeping an eye out, chasing people out of your gas

station, saying, you know, move it along. Let's, let's, let's get out of here. There have been big

art installations. And of course, the singing resistance is, as you'll be talking about, is,

is a big piece of it. And a really cool part of what people are doing here too. So that's where the

positivity comes in, you know, there's so much darkness around this. And it's, so it makes me so

mad what's happening. And at the same time, there is motivation and inspiration in these groups

of neighbors coming together on small scale and large scale and just pulling together in a way

that I haven't seen. I just haven't seen it in my experience. It's made me really proud to be part

of this community and really want to fight harder to heal and to make things better. Yeah. People

talk about Minneapolis in particular in Minnesota as a state as being, you know, I heard someone say

on some video somewhere on social media, you know, oh, when I heard they were going to Minneapolis,

I thought, well, good luck. And I don't know why, because I mean, I tend to think like every state

and every city will say, we're strong and we're resilient. And I think it's because we're all

strong and resilient. But I wonder if in Minneapolis, there is a certain something going on where people

are one, I've heard very accepting of immigrants to just really, really resilient or what,

how would you describe the resistance and its culture in particular in in Minnesota?

Yeah, that's a really good question. Minnesota does have a strong history and kind of culture of

welcoming the refugee, welcoming the asylum seeker. The churches here, you know, across the

spectrum, all the churches here historically have had strong programs of hosting, sponsoring,

helping people acclimate. There's, you know, huge Somali community here. There's a very large

Hmong community. There are lots of groups who have gravitated here because there's been

a climate of support for that. And then I think despite the cold winters, people put down

roots here. And, you know, I know my husband, I'm not a native Minnesota and I grew up

outside Chicago, but my husband grew up here and his family's from here. And his family had a refugee

family stay with them for a while. And they have remained in touch with that family, you know, decades

later. So I think that when you try to mess with that, when you try to mess with something that we

perceive as part of our culture as Minnesotans, I think there's, it's just a, I don't, you know,

it's just a natural reaction to say, no, you know, we, we, we find value in this diversity. We find

significance in this idea of immigrants making our country stronger. And you can't come in like,

you can legitimately have immigration policies like that's a whole separate conversation,

but that's not what we saw happening here. Coming in and and taking away people's dignity,

imprisoning people for no reason with no warrant, with no justification for it. I think it just

touched a nerve for everybody here. It was so over the top that it, I think it was that combination

of it was so over the top and then this culture of welcoming the stranger and caring about your

neighbor like it just those two things coming together created this very strong reaction that

yeah, yeah. Well, I end up thinking a lot of thoughts while you're talking and wanting to ask you

a lot of questions, but then I start losing track because I have so many questions in my mind.

But one of the questions I had was when I, so we've seen the worst. We've seen, you know,

endless video footage of Renee Good being shot and killed. We've seen endless footage of

Alex pretty being shot and killed in Minneapolis. And my question is, so we're seeing the worst of

what ice is doing. When you're actually encountering ice agents out on the sidewalks on the streets

and so forth, does it feel, it doesn't sound like it feels that scary and people are like yelling at

bovino to get out of town, you know, like, that surprises me somehow. So how does it feel to

actually encounter them? Are they really young? Are you able to talk to them? Are people able to,

you know, talk some sense into them? What is that like? I think it varies a lot by the situation.

You know, obviously when unseen, when both Renee Good and when Alex Pretti were murdered,

those scenarios get tense in a hurry, right? And there's lots of people and there's lots of agents

and lots of tear gas and other, you know, other issues. I think though in other encounters,

when it's smaller, I've heard lots of people asking, you know, questions like, you know, would your

mother be proud of you right now? Or, you know, you can change your mind. You know, it's that sort of,

maybe it's a Midwestern kind of curiosity or just quirkiness about it that keeps some of

those interactions from being hostile or quite as hostile, you know, I think ultimately a lot of

people here are baffled by all of it and really genuinely are trying to get answers. I'm not sure

that totally answers your question, but I would say that there's a there's just a broad range of

the kinds of interactions and some are very scary and very hostile and others, you know, have a

little bit of levity to them. I don't know if you saw the video on, oh, I'm sure it was circulated

widely. I saw it on Instagram. I wasn't there, but there was a protest at the Whipple building,

which is where they've taken the detainees before they send people off to Texas and wherever

else. And that's a horrible thing, like it's a it's a federal building named for Bishop Whipple,

who was a pro immigrant bishop, a piscopal bishop, and it's now, you know, a stupid detention center,

like you can't make the stuff up. But a lot of the protests are there and then a lot of the,

a lot of the, you know, both religious and community groups show up there. And several

weeks ago, they had one where they were, I think I could say this, they were throwing

dildos at the police cars. I actually saw that. I saw this. And yeah, that was at the detention

center, right? Or was it? Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Oh, my gosh. Hey, I'm going to talk about what's

happening now because we've heard that there's been a withdrawal, a lot of ICE agents and CBP,

and other immigration agents have been withdrawn. But we do have an audio of another woman from

Minnesota talking about what it's like now. So we're going to roll that audio and then we'll be

right back with you, Janine. For those wondering what's going on in the Twin Cities and Minneapolis

and in St. Paul, we are at the point where people are starting to be hidden in other people's homes.

I had been wondering like when this would happen and I was talking to someone on Friday and they

shared that they are doing this and that they know that they're not the only ones. And so

I don't share this just like spread more fear, but I just, if you're waiting for the bottom to fall

out like I think we're really close. And I can feel the eyes on our cities leaving. And I just

share this to try to bring them back because the stakes are so high. And while there might be

a narrative that things have gone softer, that it's less hostile, that it's less dangerous,

that is not what we are experiencing here. So in my bio, there is a link to a bunch of mutual aid.

Is give them money. And I don't know. I'm so blown away and inspired by how people are

like sustaining their level of resistance. But part of that is because we feel the support of

people outside of the Twin Cities. So please support us. Don't look away. We need you. We are at

the hiding people in our basement part of this. That was a woman. And actually, I'm sorry,

I don't have her Instagram handle in front of me, but I will try to get it during the break. So I can

tell you where to find that video. A woman from Minneapolis talking about the situation now.

We are talking to Janine Seja, who is an ordinary working mom, a white liberal. She says a Catholic

who has an adopted child from Ethiopia. And we're talking about what's happening and what happened

in Minneapolis. What's happening now. We're going to get to what's happening now. We're also

going to bring in Steven Zunas to talk about what's happening in Iran. We've been talking to Janine

Seja, an ordinary working mom in Minneapolis and talking about her experience there. Okay, Janine,

I wanted to ask you about the detention center because that is maybe the darkest part of all

of this. What was the name of the detention center again? Whipple. Whipple, yes, I've heard that name.

And I also heard reports that people who are needing medical care or who have injuries from their

arrests, their abductions were actually being dropped off like outside of Whipple, like in the woods

with no clothes or very little clothing without their phones. Tell us about the situation at Whipple

and at least what you know about it. Sure, yeah. It's grim. There are local legislators who

women, one with a medical background, who have tried to get into Whipple and they put them off,

put them off. I think they said they required seven days notice when they finally were able to

tour the facility. It had clearly been cleaned up. You know, some of the obvious things had been

addressed, but it was still quite grim. You know, reports of people not getting medicine they need

with the administration saying, oh, the, you know, the quote-unquote illegal aliens are having the

best health care of their lives at this facility, but in reality, that's not the case. And I think

like an organ transplant recipient, not having the meds that he needs to avoid rejecting the organ,

you know, just all kinds of horrible things. And people just like with the rest of it, the

citizens here are stepping up and trying to do what they can. For instance, there's a group

and their name is Something Haven and they just station people at Whipple so that when people are

discharged, somebody's there with a burner phone, warm clothes, you know, some basic things that

they would need because you're right. People are getting, you know, like, sent out in the middle

of the night and they don't have anything. They might not even have their documents, you know,

whatever was taken from them when they were put into Whipple in the first place. So it is bad,

for sure, and people are trying to do what they can to make it better. Obviously, there's

tremendous surge of funding for the legal groups here and trying the best they can to stay on top

of the cases and, you know, all of that stuff too, but it's, it's a lot. The system is like

push beyond the breaking point. Let's go to this woman who we just heard from, also from Minnesota

just before the break, who's saying, I mean, because, so we heard that there was withdrawal,

but has there really been withdrawal? What's happening and do people still need, I think, support?

I mean, people can't not go to work for months and months. How can we support all these people

who have to pay rent, you know, or have to pay their margages and they're not able to get out?

What's happening now? Has it settled down? Is it winding down? Is it some, you know, like steady state

of mid-level terror? What's happening? I would characterize it as having been dialed back a notch from

the peak, but definitely not continuing to decline. It's more like it leveled off. And what I hear,

and of course, I'm just one person, and I don't have any special authority, but what I hear is

more activity in the suburbs and a little bit less in the city. So sort of moving around,

maybe being a little bit less blatant in their activities, but definitely not gone. And definitely

like the recording that you played, you know, I know people who are sheltering families in their

homes. And I know of lots of fundraisers for rent and things, like you said, that, you know,

it's March and you haven't worked, but you still have to pay your rent. Well, how is that going to

happen? Like lots of fundraisers, lots of resources being assembled to try to avoid having people

lose their shelter over this. Yeah. Is there a group that you would recommend donating to?

So I'm telling all my, you know, kind of out of my non-local friends, and I get asked this a lot.

I point everybody to a website called StandwithMinnesota.com. It was created by one or two volunteers

at the beginning of this. And it's basically a clearinghouse. And it'll point you to, you know,

if you're interested in helping with rent, it'll point you that way. If you're interested in

financing some of the legal actions, you can do that. It's kind of blossomed. Unfortunately,

it's blossomed out of necessity over the past couple of months, but it's a good sort of one-stop shop

where you could, you know, find something that interests you and contribute.

Janine, I want to thank you so much for joining us. And I'm asking you to stay on as we join Steven

Zunas, who just got out of class at university, sorry, San Francisco University, who is a Middle East

expert. And as soon as we get him on, I will do the full introduction. It might be a little noisy

because he was walking from class, I think, to an office or a space. And I also want to mention

singing, resistance, Santa Cruz, Reverend Elijah Christopher was going to be joining us. I'm not,

we haven't heard from him yet. And actually from him and them yet. And if you want to check the

Center for Spiritual Living website, that group is being started by Reverend Elijah and Heather

Houston. And let's go to Steven Zunas now. Steven, are you there? Can you hear us?

Yes, I can. Okay, fantastic. I'm just going to introduce you real quick before we start talking

about the war with Iran. Steven Zunas is founder of the Middle Eastern Studies program at University

of San Francisco. Okay, I'm sorry, I got those mixed up. And author of Tinder box US Middle East

policy and the roots of terrorism, as well as several other books and a wide range of articles,

including an article for the progressive. And this was from a past show on what a Harris

Waltz administration would have done about the ongoing war in Israel. This is something we talked

about in an earlier show. The escalation of the war on the ongoing devastation and mass killing

in Gaza recognizes one of the country's leading scholars of US Middle East policy and a

strategic, an of strategic nonviolent action. Professor Zunas serves as senior policy analyst

for the foreign policy and focus project of the Institute for Policy Studies and associate

editor of peace review. And until recently was a contributing editor to to Kuhn. Welcome again,

Steven. Hello. Hello. You know, I just wanted to mention something before we get started with

the questions. I don't know if you are, you live in Santa Cruz. And a lot of people know your name

here in town. You're involved in lots of different activities here in talks. I don't know

people know that you're often on like national and global news networks. Yeah. The reason I

freeze now is late the leaving as I just got a text from the BBC, which once wants me on and about

an hour from now. Oh, wow. Yeah. I've been on all three major network affiliates,

TV affiliates here in the Bay areas today. So it has been a busy time to be sure. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's go ahead and get jump in then because we don't have too much time. I think this is one of

the most confusing situations I've ever tried to think about this war with Iran. You know, we started

with a nuclear deal that Obama had structured and set up with Iran that was dismantled by the

first Trump administration. All this stuff has been happening with Israel, which we all know about,

you know, genocide and Gaza and and a war with surrounding countries. And of course, you know,

the attack by Hamas and and it's just been a lot. And now people are saying all kinds of stuff

about why this is happening from Israel is making the US do it to the US is doing it for regime change

to it's going to be the same regime, but we're just going to not, you know, tell us what you think

why this war has started. I think ultimately what it's about is that Iran is the last

country that basically defies American hegemony in the region. I mean, yes, they're an awful

reactionary, oppressive corrupt, brutally autocratic government that most Iranians would like to

see removed. But that's not the problem. I mean, the US has supported plenty of awful governments

around the world. We still do. Trump obviously doesn't care about democracy or human rights,

that kind of thing. The problem is that they are an obstacle to this hegemonic vision that they

won't play along. And as a result, they're going to be punished. And I don't think there's any

realistic possibility this will lead to regime change. Ayatollah Khamenei was quite old. He was

going to be dying in the next year or two anyway. He was in frail health. But increasingly,

the Iranian Revolutionary Guard had been playing the leading role. I mean, it's almost as much

military dictatorship as it is a theocracy at this point. And it's not one man rule where if you

get rid of the one bad guy, the democracy can take over. It's a bunch of overlapping, very powerful

interests that have a stake in the system. A more of an allegarchy, which is much harder to bring

down. And of course, in people who are bomb, they tend to rally around the flag, bombing alone can

never lead to regime change. So I think, frankly, Trump is just willing to punish the Iranians as

much as possible to destroy not just the military infrastructure and the government, much of the

civilian infrastructure as well. And basically set an example to the world if you defy us, if you

don't do what we say, this is what we're going to do to you. You know, I do want to just acknowledge,

you know, that all these protesters who were killed by this Iranian government or

oligarchy or regime. And you know, we have an Iranian American city council member, Shabra

Kalantari Johnson, who just posted a post on Facebook with the images of all the women who

have been killed fighting for their rights in Iran. And so it's hard not to think about wouldn't

something else be better when it's been so terrible, especially for women. And you know, not

with standing Trump, we know Trump isn't terribly interested in women's rights. That's not what

mega is about, certainly. But is there some chance that like I was reading on a substack that

maybe there's a deal with some of these people who haven't been killed yet with the who've been

talking to Jared or to Trump or who the heck ever to sort of take over the country with the help

of the United States and maybe westernize some of it, but not certainly not allow for like

elections, free elections, free and fair elections, for example, but maybe allow women to,

you know, where would they want and so on. Have you heard anything like that?

No, not at all. I don't see how any deal like this can be struck.

The people in power like any authoritarian system want to remain in power. That the

it's and indeed the nuclear issue is a non-issue as well. I mean, as you mentioned,

that we had a deal. Trump eliminated the talks are going well. The Omani

mediator said that a deal was to then reach and you know and and and and Trump clearly

said just to go ahead and and make go to war anyway. It is not about the things we're

total telling us about. It's not about democracy. It's not about the a nuclear issue around certainly

is not a threat to the United States at this time. It's a decade before they could

develop an ICBM that could hit the United States. I think that's it again. This is this is about

about about control and so you don't think that there could be some concessions to sort of a more

I mean out in the West as I was the best term to use, but you know more freedoms for the population,

but not total freedom. You don't think that some kind of a deal is happening.

No, again, the United States doesn't care about about freedom and you know that and at this point

but it would be a win wouldn't it for the Trump administration to say hey look the women can

you know it would be something they I don't know. I mean I have no idea. I'm going to let you

keep talking. I mean at this point I think the Iranians are just ready to bring down the regime

and here's the thing. If you wanted to talk about moderates who could maybe do some significant

forms within the system you you think about most of the you know the guy who lost the

who actually won the election against Amid any jade but it was stolen from them. You prompted

the green movement and he's been in house arrest ever since. Ma'am. Your former like that.

The US tried to kill him too. Two days ago there was a direct strike on the residence residential

building where he'd been under house arrest. Wow. And apparently an effort to kill him.

And there have been other moderates. The United States is not just attacking the

the hardliners. They're going after the moderates. The very people who could make that kind of

deal you're describing. Yeah. Because that's not the goal. The goal is to basically destroy

Iran as much as possible. Maybe bring back the Shah's son as an American puppet. I doubt

they could do that but they could try and maybe try that. I've seen him on the US news lately.

So yeah I mean I would like to think something like that might come out of this but again it's

doubtful. I don't think that's what the United States wants. And so you've also written and I think

this is important. You post a lot on social media. Your account is public. Stephen Zune as

ZUNES. I think you have important things to say. And a lot of people are saying, well this is a deal

with BB Netanyahu. This is you know we're doing this on behalf of Israel. Maybe there's a deal

for Gaza real estate or who knows what. But you're pushing back on that. You're saying this is

problem or you know it can cross over into anti-Semitism that the Jews are in charge of everything.

That kind of thing but what is your stance on? I mean obviously Israel doesn't want Iran to

continue under this current regime. And they would say, and I've heard this from Israelis,

you know like has the law has been funded by Iran. Hamas was funded by Iran and all these

terrible people are funded by Iran. So obviously Israel has an interest in bringing down anyone

who would fund all these people from their point of view. But what do you think about this?

Yeah, the Hamas connection is a greatly exaggerated but Hezbollah certainly has been

dependent in many respects on Iranian aid. But this actually ties in with your previous question

and that is a truly democratic Iran where you have would have people or a partially democratic

Iran where people like most of the and the genuine reformist elements were in charge. They're not

going to be pro-Israel either. They're not going to be pro-West either. I mean most Iranians,

I mean yes, the American media likes to highlight the the minority of folks who want to bring

the Shah back. But you know Iran has been a major regional power for 2500 years. You know they are

they don't want to be treated like a banana republic. You know they are strongly nationalistic.

Indeed part of the staying power of the regime is not its Islamism. It's it's really pushing this

strong nationalist narrative. And for my time in Iran has been very very clear.

That is much as people despise the the Iranian regime. They hate what the Israelis are doing

to the Palestinians. They hate the kind of pressure and double standards and threats from in our war

you know from the United States. And so the Israelis definitely share the American desire just

to simply weaken Iran to whatever extent is possible. But as much as Netanyahu has been

pushing for war with Iran and actually going back decades. I mean there are scenes of

in the 1990s saying Iran just a few months away from building an atomic bomb. He's on repeat.

Yeah that but that you know Trump is nobody's puppet. You know Trump would not do something that

would you know with the high risk of this involved just because Netanyahu pressured him to do so.

You know Trump is already bombed seven other countries. And you know he has this he's wrapped

himself in this kind of imperial model. That again I have even though obviously the United States

is coordinating very closely with Israel on this. I really do see Israel as a junior partner.

And that we would be going toward regardless. So I was thinking before this interview about

Venezuela. And if we weren't in this shock and awe situation in the United States you know

which has really been engineered to just keep us all constantly you know in flight or flight

flight mode here domestically. We would probably still be talking about Venezuela.

Interesting you mentioned Venezuela because you know back in the 1990s a lot of us are

predicting that thanks to the World Trade Organization the International Monetary Fund the

collapse of Communism everything else that the US would not engage in any more big wars or

coup attempts or anything like that because people have sort of been forced into the global capitalist

economy. But I remember thinking at the time there are three countries in the global south

that had the had the amount of oil wealth that had enough water and resources for food and

everything like that. They had a large educated population etc that could resist this. There are

three countries and they were Iraq, Venezuela and Iran. Wow. You know coincidence that these are

the countries the United States is targeting. Wow. Well you know we're getting to the top of the

hour and I just wanted to hand the the mic back to Janine because and then back to you Stephen

and then I'm going to have to start to sign off because I wish we had more. I wish we had

another hour or so to talk about this but Janine was talking about how she sees a connection in

terms of constitutionality of anything that this administration is doing and it just strikes it

just strikes me as so absurd that some of these conservative libertarian types don't think it

is absolutely horrific that US citizens and residents now have to show papers have their papers

in their car to present to federal authorities just driving around their neighborhoods.

Janine do you want to talk about the constitutional rights that you see have been trampled in in

Minnesota? I think in all of these scenarios the you know the norms the the asking Congress before

you invade another country the carrying your papers and Minneapolis like these to me there is a

commonality to all this and again this sort of absurdity that you know this is really the way

we're living in 2026 with this administration and I guess the answer is yes this is how we're living

but yeah I do see fundamental you know concerns about constitutional rights democracy decency

across the board and I've appreciated hearing this dialogue here tonight because there is

that element of like you said we're just rolling from one crisis to the next and the next crisis

news is drowning out the previous one and I think that's partially by a design right you know

we put Epstein in the mix there too like nothing to see here too much to see here thank you so much

Janine and Steven do you want to say anything about constitutionality you have about I'd say one

minute well certainly yeah this is the largest military operation and and and and very and

on certainly the longest military operation the president has as initiated without the consent of

Congress I mean the the the little invasions you know grenade Panama and Venezuela you know whatever

I mean those those ended pretty pretty quickly those run constitutional as well but you know they

the other they are they're seemingly quick and easy this is going to be a long drawn out war I

mean as awful as the Iraq invasion was as much it was based on lies at least Bush had the

decency to come to Congress and you lied enough that you got a majority to authorize it yeah Trump

didn't even try yeah and this is this is very very disturbing this this is at least as serious as

into the other authoritarian presidential exertion of power violation of the constitution

that we've seen on so many other areas with foreign and domestic thank you so much Steven Zunez

ahead of the Department of Middle East studies at University of San Francisco thank you Janine

Sager from Minnesota thank you so much for coming on thank you Amy thank you and folks I have

an announcement to make it looks like I may be going off air for a bit to embark on a new project

in the community which you will likely hear about if you are paying any attention at all I love the

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