South Beach Sessions - Steve Levitan

0:00You're listening to DraftKeyes Network. First of all, I don't think there will be another show like Modern Family or there probably won't be because not because Modern Family is so great that no one will ever duplicate it's just because the world has changed. Welcome to South Beach Sessions. This man right here is the Emmy Award winning creator of all of the amazing things and entertainment that you have seen recently. He insisted I introduce him that way. Just shoot me, Modern Family, the Larry Sanders show, Frazier. I didn't create those. I worked on those two. Forgive me, I made him a creator of all things and entertainment.

1:01He didn't object to that, but he object to the factual inaccuracy of you worked on those shows. Larry Sanders obviously the creator of the Larry Sanders show. No, no, no. No, I didn't create that show. I worked on it and I'm actually not even that long. Forgive me, I called Gary Shanling Larry Sanders. I meant Gary Shanling is the creator of the Larry Sanders show. Exactly right. That's exactly right. We can start there because I believe that that is the best sitcom of all time. It was quite an experience to work on that show. It was a show that I really respected before I went over there. It felt like quite an honor to get a chance to learn. I took that job having only worked on multi-camera shows for six years or so and I was suddenly offered that thing and it was involved with some other stuff.

2:04I took it because I said I think I could learn and grow more here because it's a book of different language and I wanted to learn that language. We'll get to all of that in a second because I imagine that was a hard environment to work in just because it seems like Gary Shanling was a bit of a crazy perfectionist. But we'll get to that. You began though and the roots of this are interesting. So you're working at a television station in Wisconsin. You're doing copywriting that probably doesn't feel like real fulfilling writing or does it? I realized that I started off on air reporter and morning anchor person. After doing that for a while I realized the only real reason I probably gravitated towards that was because it was I got to be on TV. Isn't that cool? That's not a good reason probably to... The best thing about being on TV is being on TV. I did for pursue the journalism.

3:06In fact I had dinner recently with a big ABC main anchor person and I told them that and he said that's why we're all in it. So I thought that was interesting. But it didn't feel like that was ultimately fulfilling because I did like to create more and that was really reporting the truth. So you already knew that you were a creative at heart and this was a bit stifling these things. Yeah I wanted to exercise those muscles. So being very pragmatic, copywriting was sort of the half step. It was a very practical step. I got to move home to Chicago. I worked at Leo Burnett, a big agency where I was doing creative work. And so I really enjoyed that to tell you the truth. And I feel like I could have done that for my career if I hadn't had this burning desire to be a television writer. So a copywriting is a career because I look at you now and I would say this man could have been a news anchor for the last 40 years sir.

4:10You would be perfect at the center of my television delivering whatever it is that's happening internationally. You should see old clips of me doing news. What happens is first of all I giant hair. And then when I would go in the air my boys would get slightly higher and I was just nervous and I really don't think I was fantastic at it. Maybe age has made me more appropriate. I wasn't assuming you were fantastic at it. I'm just telling you you look the part you have. I would trust my news a little bit more if you were delivering it even if squeaking and nervous. I have that empty suit. But yeah, no, that was a way that it was just always in steps. I could take this and I could get a little closer to creative. I always say when you grow up in Chicago you don't even think that being a comedy writer in California is a possibility.

5:10Just like you might as well say I'm going to be an astronaut because I just I don't know anybody who did it. It's far away and all that but you know I just kept getting a little bit closer to it and it made it feel achievable. But this doesn't sound like the traditional path. I think people probably know they want Hollywood earlier know that they the copywriting is not the route to making modern family. Yeah, I'm not exactly sure why I don't think maybe maybe just because I'm a very pragmatic person it felt like a maybe a dream too big too big. At first it just didn't seem like I said it just didn't didn't seem possible. But every step it felt a little bit closer and you know what I think I could do this and might as well try. So what was the dream? Like you're you're coming through high school you're coming through the early years you're watching a lot of television and dreaming of what?

6:13I always remember my mom telling me I watch way too much television and it's going to lead to nothing. Well laugh in her face it's going to really mom really. But when I was doing news. I mean they used to have the back when I was doing it the three monitors on the wall and I remember when I was doing the 10 o'clock news. I could see the shows on and I just remember like watching them and I'm writing in my stories and like I think I could do that. And so literally I decided I don't know why I'm going to try to write a script and let me to see if I can do it and I did it and I enjoyed it. And I thought it was pretty good it probably wasn't. But I thought it was pretty good and it gave me the encouragement to keep trying and you know slowly going for it. Were you introspective at all about I'm not fulfilled in what I'm presently doing?

7:17I realized the path in TV news was moving from small town to small to slightly less small town. And so that meant probably spending my 20s and 30s and cities that perhaps I didn't want to live in. And that didn't feel like a great thing for me. Also a friend of mine who is an anchor person to this day. I got him a job at the station where I was already working and I was already doing some on air work and he was like going to be like an intern. He was at my fraternity and I got him helped him get this job and on his first day he was better than me. I mean truly he was his ability to just take information and deliver it in a very smooth, low voice way. I thought I went oh my god if he's already better than me this does not mode well for my career. Well I'm wondering though if you have so many anchor friends in the television business in front of the camera doing that is very insecure and exceedingly vain.

8:20How is it that you sort of figured out I'm going to put away the ego of I want to be in front of the camera and now I want to write for others. Those are two very different things. Yeah but I just thought that Hollywood was seemed a lot better than you know Madison Wisconsin to me at that moment. I mean it was that was the ultimate. So it didn't feel like I was in any way stepping down you know to do that in any way. That was it was a giant dream and I just I enjoyed I really enjoyed writing and and while I had done some performing in high school and college. I never thought that that was my path. I never felt like oh I got this burning desire to be to you know act or do anything like that. I was happy creating to me sitting back and I can even remember it when I was in high school and writing things for an assembly or whatever and like waiting for that big laugh and getting that laugh.

9:27That was just so meaningful to me like oh I wrote that and they're laughing. That was powerful. And you decided to chase it. Yeah I think so. Because you felt something that like what are the things do you have in your life that feel that kind of powerful that are speaking to you intuitively. It's such a buzz and it's it's frankly a skill that you know a lot of most people don't have and writing funding is the hardest. Is the hardest kind of writing. Yeah and and so I thought well I can do it on some level. I mean I'm not going to be the greatest but I'm like I can do it on some level. And so let me pursue this I would you know I could write stuff that would make me laughing. And so let me just keep going with this I just I just enjoyed it. Are you that kind of funny quickly not writing like are you that kind of quick or is the written form the best version of your funny because it's crafted. Well as my I remember my my I was at a dinner party once with my ex wife.

10:36That should tell you a lot and and someone said to her oh my god it must be so great to be married to a comedy writer who's always making the laugh because it is on paper. So you know we're a complicated bunch. It's a better line that I could have written and this material though I imagine because you take I mean I got to imagine you're grabbing a whole lot of stuff from your own family life. Yeah yeah. I think that certain in certain circumstances I'm funny and certain times I'm okay sitting back and you know I never. I know people who are just naturally funny 24 seven and they're they're always on and they're doing it and that's not me I sometimes like to kind of come under it a little bit where I have to get comfortable with people before I'm you know I'm doing that a normal regular conversation I'm playing golf with some people for example.

11:42I'm not going to be the one that says oh my god he was cracking us up the whole time well mostly because I'm neurotic about my game but I'm. But maybe about the jokes to right because it risks real vulnerability to try to be funny on the spot it's a little easier to write it I just I just like to come under it a little bit I think but but but given when I'm with friends and I'm with you know people that I'm comfortable with or even sometimes if it's just in the in a right situation that I feel. Like if I'm in a some bunch of people are getting together for some talk about something and I see an opportunity for a lap I'll throw it in because I feel like the room needs it but I'm try not to be like he's always performing guy. When did you realize you had a gift for writing funny because it is I can make people cry no problem with writing I very rarely risk funny writing. I mean I I started there were a couple of I went to a really great high school and there were like assemblies we did a Saturday night live assembly where they would do our own version of Saturday night live that was a big thing every year and and I was writing I wrote for that and along with some really good another friend of mine.

13:06Turn out to be a comedy writer as well we did it on the same at the same time and I think that was the first time that I got a sense that I wrote that joke it got a huge laugh. I performed in college I wrote funny short stories I wrote some fraternity shows but not with the idea of really making it into anything like your your mother's words were going somewhere in there what are you gonna. I'm gonna do with all of that television you're watching it's good for nothing it's just it was it was a bridge too far I think it just didn't seem like it was a possibility so what was the finish line what was going to be the finish line just TV anchor. I thought so for a while and then I thought advertising but then in doing advertising what happened is I come out to L.A. to shoot a commercial that I wrote. And then I'd see oh there's Warner Brothers and that's where they shoot this and I can I'm on the lot shooting my commercial and I see human beings walking around it seems like you're just putsing around through life and there's something on television I can do and there's a studio that why can't I do that I'm here already.

14:23I mean I got myself there and then it just felt like well those all look like regular people I'm a person I could they could do it I could do it so it gave me the courage to try just to see it but you're saying ridiculous like it's people require it's training and dreams and I'm gonna work I'm not saying that that so instantly I nailed it I just you know my kids grew up on on sets. You know they grew up like literally my one my oldest daughter was named by one of the actors on on on wings. My first show so being around the entertainment businesses very natural to them and two of my daughters are involved in it now but it was just not possible for somebody from you know suburban Chicago. Guys you know all about me I'm a skeptic I'm always like come on really if you tell me a product is better you need to tell me why it's better I won't just take your word for it show me the evidence that matters even more with something like creatine because it's part of my every day routine that's why I take momentous signature spec creatine.

15:44It's manufactured in a pharmaceutical facility using reverse osmosis water purification then verified to a six stage testing process with four independent agencies. I mean what is it mean? What is it? Translation they didn't just slap a new label on the same old creatine and call it premium. Creatine support strength power lean muscle growth recovery and even cognitive performance and let me be honest with you guys. If you're working out traveling and explaining basketball to normies for a living I'll take all the help I can get. So if you want to try momentous signature spec creatine head to live momentous calm and use code beach for up to 35% off your entire first order slip momentous calm promo code BEC H for up to 35% off. Where nobody did that so when does it become possible what's the first minute.

16:45I wrote a script when I was doing advertising I when I came out here a shot like I said I saw some things that made it more real. This is a real place to get it so it works and remember I got home on a Saturday night from this shoot in LA I went into my office at Leo Burnett I got there at about 10 in the morning. I wrote until about 11 o'clock that night. I wrote a full episode of the wonder years in 13 hours yeah and I am I think this is pretty good and I was so motivated like I got to do this I guess I'm going to do this so I wrote it and then with no script training no script writing training with no learning. No books no not just I'm going to sit down and write a skeleton with no formal knowledge whatsoever on how to write a pilot.

17:50Yeah because I think I was so much television you've got to be shitting me you've got I've watched so much that it was in my bones at that point you've got to be shitting me you wrote an episode of the wonder years in 13 hours without any any sort of training any sort of thought on how to do that just you absorb the watching of television I think so so I I did that and I within strangely weird coincidence in life. Not too long after that one of the producers of the wonder years came to Chicago to give a little talk like I've done since those kinds of things and I went up to him afterwards and I just said I need to be this guy. Because it's not my personality I'm not a big you know salesman pushy you know I said I hate to be this guy but I wrote this script of the wonder years you think you could possibly look at it this guy his name was Michael dinner and I got a call from him or an email or something I don't remember at the time it's a long time ago it wouldn't have been an email I don't think probably like maybe it was a letter a horse delivered letter yeah.

19:07Carrier patient yeah yeah and he he called me up and he said I the good the bad news is we literally just shot an episode that deals with the same subject matter that you you wrote about the good news is I thought yours was better. Which was very very encouraging to hear it yes of course yeah it was really nice to hear so you go from heart broken to or probably just surprised that he's calling at all no to give me some hope and then so I said you know is there anybody that you could show this to tell it anybody like that and somehow I remember I got I remember getting a voicemail from an agent saying I'm not really good at it. Agent saying I read your wonder years I think it's great oh no it's you called me I read your wonder years I think it's great do you have any other you know half hours do you have any like multi cam scripts and I said yeah I have a cheers and they go great can you send it to us and I went absolutely I'll send it to you right away and I hung with the phone and we're like okay I got to write a cheers you're not serious and so you're just live.

20:25I'm trying to her and it's an unbelievable story and you you just and how long did that take you. I got so much energy and so much angst so much to prove back then that I was like I was driven I do remember a night and my friends will still talk about a little bit where I lived with two good friends in Chicago. And I was working on this script this cheer script and they're like okay you know it's Friday night and you know we're going to go out to the bars like let's go and like I'm going to stay home and write this I'm I'm kind of into it and I'm going to write it like. Let me get this straight you're going to sit home and write your little story about a fake bar but fake people instead of coming with us to go to a real bar with real people seriously and I'm like I just I got to do it like I'm I'm into it I'm going to do it and you know lo and behold that cheer script.

21:34Got me an agent and then it got on in a pile on the show wings which was created by three guys who had worked on cheers and consequently went on to create a phrase. And I got that script got plucked from a pile to come in and pitch a story so keep that there for a second let's go back for for a moment to how you're watching absorbing television as a kid how much are you watching and what is happening there are you doing any escapism from things in the house do you just like to be entertained what is happening that makes you sort of addicted to television. I don't know I don't know if I was escaping I just I mean nobody's child it is idyllic it wasn't as traumatic as some people.

22:42But there are certainly issues and but I would come home from school and you know we had WGN which was the superstation and it had first cable thing yeah and it had reruns on at the time select I grew up as a very young person watching the dick band I show. Which was hugely influential like that was maybe worthy I thought of like oh that seems like the most fun job in the world to be a comedy writer sit around your friends and crack jokes and so wait a minute you're thinking this how young dick band I you're thinking this black and white your how young I'm. Probably seven years old okay so you're deciding as a young boy the most fun job is not being dick band I tripping over the couch it's writing for those people you already know that those people are right being written for well that no their writers on the show they play writers and I'm watching them in that set.

23:42Writing and sitting around thinking of things and like though they're cracking jokes and you know they're playing darts and hitting the punching bag and that just seems like what a great. Job I mean my my father who I loved dearly you know was an accountant that didn't seem like a lot of fun to me so I think that just you know that just looked like like an idyllic way to make a living my my father would come home and complain about work every night I don't know what your father were doing I don't know what the issues were in the house but when my father would do that I decided in there that I was going to try and figure out. How to do something fun for a living like I I couldn't be someone like I just heard my dad complaining to my mom that's all my brother and I were enduring because he just didn't like his work he was an engineer and it didn't have any kind of creative fulfillment and and so I was like I'm I have to do something fun this is too many hours a day I'm going to be thinking about something.

24:43Well that that's great that you took that from that I mean that's a wonderful thing sometimes some kids aren't strong enough to take that they'll succumb to it in some way or whatever but my dad actually worked out of our home he had a home office and so I would watch him and you know on the adding machine all day with the cubs game playing on his little black and white TV out his desk and I'm like this is I mean I also I probably had. ADD or something back then that was just called being restless or whatever it was not living up to his potential. But I thought of all day sitting at a desk doing you know that I knew and he didn't seem like it was something he loved it was something he was good at but he never seemed like oh my god I'm you know I discovered something in the tax law today was he otherwise happy would he have give it would he happy in his. Work where you get the idea that you were going to choose something fun because I television anchorings not very fun also sit like just the do it the reading of your words even if the writing's fun the doing of the anchoring is you know it's a half hour a day and it's not very rewarding why the part about but journalism that I liked was.

26:02When I was a reporter I got to do some incredible things I mean some of those little moments stuck with me for life that I've used and written about and whatever I've seen some things I never would have seen if not for the. No reporters a much better job and anchor the dreaming of an angle I was a morning you know good morning Wisconsin it was a five minute show at seven twenty five or. On some days I had to come in and make the coffee and write the news and greet the guests and not quite glamour you know I'm working the running the teleprompter myself you know oh yeah yeah I mean it was. Small reading and you're just turning a knob under the. Yeah yeah yeah I mean it was. I wonder your voice was squeaky hello get me out of here it's four degrees outside. Yeah it's for screaming from inside that's why you're squeaking your your you're you're all of your rage about living in a in the cold Midwest was just being squeaking out of your mouth. I'm going to kill myself if this is my life. Hissing between your teeth yeah perfect television teeth yeah it wasn't right.

27:07It was not right for me. What else are you absorbing though on the television like are you a maniac about it because your mother is saying you're you're just wasting your life. I just I guess I probably disappeared and do it a little bit but I mean I had a lot of friends I wrote my bike and played softball on the streets and you know all those things. But we watched a lot of TV you know I mean good TV things like the dick band I show and Mary Tyler Moore and you know and and all in the family was a big thing in our house and also the really. You know the Brady bunch and Gilligan's Island and and and worse a lot of a lot of. Bad TV that are not necessarily calling those bad but there are different levels of sophistication let's just say and and I I took it all in I mean I I I I would get the fall the TV guide would come from the the in the in the Chicago Tribune and it would have the grid.

28:19Of the new line up and where everything was I that page was cut out it was put on my bulletin board and I knew when everything was on and I watched and I. I loved it I mean it's a magical portal like for for kid there's all sorts of stuff there you gravitated less for the cartoons and as a young man and more to me that did speed racer and all those things when I was young and there were certain shows. There was certain. Occasional dramas that grabbed me like I remember this was quite a bit later but like history blues was huge for me like wow this is different and this is great and I love that show I remember I wrote a paper about it in college and you know I was very into that. But comedy just those those shows just spoke to me do you allow yourself to absorb the personal pride and achievement in you made a show that is that kind of seminal as the ones that you do I mean you've made up you've been a part.

29:26Of four five five that I can argue and you've done others I like the work that you're doing now on streaming as well but these five would be in the classification of if anybody's talking about television they would say that the five shows that you've been on are are seminal shows well I don't take any. I mean yes the sword answers yes listen when I work on a show when I worked on Larry Sanders when I worked on Frazier i jumped aboard a speeding train and I took a I contributed to the ride a little bit you know I helped but I that train was moving and I don't feel like I mean that show would have suffered when I ought to had I not been the one to jump on that train so I always. I always want to be clear and I don't want to take any credit you've been clear sir about that it has been stated for the record anyone watching this knows that I'm giving you more credit for two shows than you have any right to be associated with you wrote a couple of jokes and you got out of there and then okay fine i'll okay fine stubborn men then your next two shows with with all the way to I'll tell you quick story so.

30:43I created just you me which is the very literally the very first thing I created I didn't even know I could because even in television even when you're in the highest levels of this when you're working on a great show and you look around that room where there are really talented writers what you kind of learn is that only certain ones end up being creators of of his shows or show sometimes of shows at all and I'm going to. Certainly a hit shows is very hard but that's a lot of luck anyway so here I was I was given the chance to create a show I didn't even know if I could do it. I didn't have a clue and I. I started writing it it it it it worked. I was very happy about that and then the show you know I moved on some other things.

31:44And I had between just shoot me and modern family about nine shows that. We're not hits they were either on for a season and canceled or they were pilot that didn't get me I didn't get. They got made but didn't get picked up or whatever whatever you know or show that again a couple things that were like a season and out. And I got very frustrated and I decided to take some time off I said I got a clear my head I've been like really cranking it out for a long time and I took six months off so I just need to take some time off and I went with therapist. Because I hadn't done that and I like I got to figure out why you know I'm not succeeding and I don't feel like I'm happy and whatever and he said to me very by the way very very smart therapist said to me you'll never be happy if you're looking for your affirmation from the outside if you're looking for your show has to be picked up and has to be a big hit in order to be happy.

32:51And you know you got to find your happiness from just the journey and from the fact that you're creating in your family and your love in the people around you and all that and I went you're absolutely right but. I got to do it anyway because I know me and I'm not that evolved I got I'm not going to be satisfied unless I create a I have one in me I know I do. And it's killing me that I can't figure it out so when modern family happened which was such a. Miracle on so many levels because just so many crazy things have to come together. And it did I from the very the very beginning and I mean this like I knew. That my dreams had come true my prayers had been answered this was exactly what I was looking for I was one of the lucky ones that. I what I was hoping for happened and I was going to enjoy it I was going to appreciate every minute of this fucking ride.

33:59And the best that I could and I'm going to relax because. I did it I did what I wanted to do and anything beyond that is gravy and that's kind of the way I've been since. Holy shit dude like that is a tremendous story so you go to therapy and you tell your therapist that's all good advice but fuck off. I know what I am I know what is in me I know what I want and I'm going to go get it and that will make me happy and then you did nothing else will. Which is the sad part because you kind of go well he's probably right I'd be better off if I could do that because what if I hadn't achieved this but. I did and then I wasn't going to let that go to waste because how terrible would that be then well you did it and you're still not happy I mean I take tremendous pride in the fact that. That I along with Chris and along with these amazing group of writers and actors and producers and.

35:06Group people we made something that was special that will endure and i'm going to. That that nourishes me on a really deep level to this day and and I hopefully I'm not. A completely resting on it like well therefore I'm I'm going to go. You know play golf every day well no you still insist on your it's still in you and you're still writing all of my. I did two things but like when it doesn't work out. As I know that quite off the odds are always against you or whatever I can just I have a little bit of a. You're saying or you're slightly no feel like balanced like that was I got my. I got I've already got more than my fair share so don't be pigish don't be like fuck you guys were. You know you didn't pick it up and you didn't do this and whatever whatever. i'm so lucky that it happened to me.

36:06As much as it did that don't don't dismiss that like. You know splash around in that for a while. You arrived at joy are you surprised that you're not craving to do it again and with the same hunger. Do you allow yourself the permission to not be to not be achieving and to I guess come to the resolute conviction that you have a limit here that you will never have anything that feels as good as what you already felt. Well I don't want to say that I'm not hungry because what I'm hungry for is something different. First of all I don't think there will be another show like modern family or you know. There probably won't be because not because modern family is so great that no one will ever duplicate it's just because the world has changed too much there's just the fragmentation is off the charts there's just too many options now you can't get those kinds of big.

37:18Big numbers and those to try to get those cultural moments. It's very hard and to do it in a way that yes like big shows happen you know like Ted Lasso's and things like that they happen and that's great and those are cultural moments but. You know we did 250 episodes over 11 years and that's in people's lives all year or for nine months a year or whatever. And it's just it's a different thing now and so that that kind of and then you know of course the whole syndication market and all those different things have changed so the idea that that a show it's just a big success won't look like what that did probably ever again but who knows. So I forgot my hunger I was talking to you about the absence of hunger thank you. So but that said I did a show after modern family and I tried to do a couple things that didn't go and then I did a show called reboot which was very very personal to me because it was about our world and I said I'm going to make this as accurate as I could possibly make it.

38:35And I really put my heart and soul into that show and I felt like by the middle by the third episode or so we had really gotten into a great rhythm and and I was very proud of it and I thought it was going to be something because I got a lot of really good feedback on it and when that show didn't get picked up for a second season. And we can guess what you know we could we could take some as a kid I guess is why I was very disappointed so it's not like I don't care. I truly I wasn't suggesting that I wasn't when I when I was saying hunger I'm saying somebody who's motivated after going to the therapist I've had nine failures and I know this is in me you're not that person anymore you have had a decade of joy and success you're probably a happier person probably a better person more grown more mature.

39:35And so I wasn't accusing you of an accusation but I you know because I do I will sometimes be myself up about that like because I think what what my right now we're the way it manifests itself is I have a very low tolerance for bullshit that's how it comes out. Okay but so you say do we have to talk around do we have to talk around the issues on reboot what were we're guessing where we're taking educated guesses on what happened to reboot. I'm happy to tell you but I want because I have a number of follow up questions on just about everything you just said right now just shoot me the beginning just shoot me you say that it's starting out and you have no idea what you're doing and like you do but you don't you've not made anything. And now whatever the problems start are you scared despair what's happening here with the beginning of this where you're getting an opportunity but are you are you overwhelmed yes I do remember because I was working on.

40:40I think I was working on either Larry Sanders or freezer at the time sounds like you don't remember you said you do remember it sounds like you don't remember here's what I remember I'd have to write just shoot me at night after a full day of. And that was sometimes late night get home at nine and start after wait a minute so I've if it's after Larry Sanders that's a I imagine that's a crazed writing room I imagine there's a lot of perfection there I imagine the hours are very long I don't know if it's the same at Frazier not but so you're about to write another show while doing what I think it was on I think it was during Frazier because I used some of my some of the some of the things from Larry Sanders is a little bit of an influence for where I got the idea for to shoot me. But the point is it was you know come home after a long day and and have to write and I remember it was originally set in a modeling agency and I just it wasn't working and it was.

41:48I was like I just I can remember being really tired. And I have new you know new kids and my daughter would come in daddy that I would come play with me I'd be like I can't play with you right now because I'm writing it. Seeing about a neglectful father who never had time for daughter and you know what I was it was horrible and but I was I could I could literally remember sitting there pulling my hair like pulling on my hair going I want to quit so bad. Like I don't think this is working but it was my first thing I sold it sold big important people were in the room when it sold and I'm like if I have to call up and say I can't execute this my stock just goes it plummets and I just wouldn't do it. Whereas to now if I have an idea and it's like not working I'm just like you know let it go I'm not going to do that.

42:48This is how you're experiencing the creating of just shooting your it is such a panicked that's the way to me that's so you're on the your your on the razor's edge of a nervous breakdown of there's family responsibilities if there's tensions in the relationship because they'd all like daddy to pay more attention to what's happening here. But daddy has to get to the finish line of his dreams and he's totally overwhelmed and he's right on the cusp but I'm falling apart. Yeah I'm the you know the bread earner and this is part of the you know the job and why I'm hired and that and people are depending on me big expectations and all that. So employees responsibilities right as people you care about. Okay so you're soothing gestures and coping during what it is that you just articulated here this is a time of great despair the making of this you're at the precipice of your dreams and it's no fun at all. It was no fun at all and I turn it in and I get those notes which are like it's good.

43:52It's good. That's the note like it's you can hear it like it's I think they said something like it's 80% good something like that and you know we talked about it fixed this week this whatever and I'm like I go and something and and one day I just had this thought of like I think the problem is that it's literally it's set in a modeling agency. And this character of Maya who's coming in has to have a chance a prayer of changing this place and how do you change a modeling agency you can't it's like let's start hiring plus size models like that's it nobody wants to watch. That's just sounds terrible on 20 levels and so I had the idea of a let's switch it to a you know a Cosmo type magazine where she wants to come in and change the tone of it and it gave it and suddenly it all clicked and then there was the one scene at the end that I wrote where she was addressing her father the father who's not having a new baby and she's telling him how to do it.

45:06And she's telling him how to be a good father and she's you know giving him advice which was the things that she wanted without saying it and that scene I went oh this guy and so when I did that and I didn't tell anybody. I just turned it in I go it was a 98% rewrite and oh so you turned it on its head so all so instead of writing from the place of this goes against what this is supposed to feel like in terms of this is. This is me this is free this is flow this is this is I'm going to enjoy the writing of this you're trying to make it fit in a box with all of these pressures around you and then they say it's just good and you're like okay I'll show I'll fix this I'm I'm because it's just good makes you feel like that's not good enough right like it's not you're you know when your soul that if that's what you end up making you're going to spend a good amount of time after that unhappy. It's not going to work or if it does work it's going to be a slog I mean if it works just enough to get on and you're going to be trying to be fighting this the whole for the rest of your life yeah so I.

46:17I have something I see in a lot of writers now which I find frustrating which is you know they everybody wants to hang on to their I'm so willing to throw out everything I've written it's unbelievable I'm like it's sometimes too willing. But like I'm like this doesn't work like let's just toss it on we can do something but all but you know how it's supposed to feel it's supposed to feel however the 13 hours of that wonder years episode felt when you wrote it from start to finish because you're inspired. I always say when it's so too much I mean it's not a new thought but when it's too much of a slog it's not working or something about it that's not working you're not going to muscle it to work you might. You might wrestle something to the point where it's going to be a quick scene and you can get through it and just like hopefully no one will notice that it's not a good scene or whatever but when something's working. Yeah there's a flow there's an energy so do you write for 11 years of modern family and I mean that I imagine the whole thing was a slalom course but you like the people you're surrounded by love you admire everybody you're working with you all I mean I assume you all know what a precious precious.

47:32Thing you have the writing for that all flowed for you like it because 11 years is an unfathomable amount of storytelling yeah especially when you consider that there were usually three or four stories in every episode so that's how many stories we have to come up with. Look no because we would there would be days where nothing would you be breaking a story and you got nothing you were no further at the end of the day than you were in the beginning of the day try to come up with something or you do come up with the story and it's just fighting you the whole time and when do we give up on this or when do we try to keep you know try maybe we'll win by doing this or one insight or something. So it's never always easy but there were just there were unbelievably joyous moments in that it was such a talented group of people because we had just come off the 2008 writers strike and there were a lot of people that needed jobs and when we started we got very high level people.

48:39So many of the people in that room could have been showrunners themselves and we had the highest level of people and and we had a premise that worked we had well defined characters and we we did all know I will say this we all knew how good we had it we we said it almost every day. It's I mean type rail and I used to. Talk about it all the time like it's never getting better than this is as good as it gets. And and you know when there were frustrating things that happened during that show or whatever I would still tell myself it's still better than anything else so what can you explain to me what the cauldron was and I still have follow questions on some of my.

49:39What you said there so don't let me forget to get back to reboot and what are the educated I had to do about a about a four second attention span so okay so you're not going to be helpful okay I have no chance with you you're not going to be helpful at all at least you're not disguising it. If just shoot me is the soothe your face pull your hair out thing are your experiences with Frazier and the Larry Sanders show so in the cauldron of we have to make this successful and the standard is through the roof that that it's normal for you to feel the frantic insecurity of being overwhelmed because those two workplaces that you came from were hard to work in. No it was completely different it's like it's a 180 you're part of a staff this was not your your job is to make what is there to contribute in some way when it's your own thing you're saying I'm going to build this boat and I want you all to get on board and sail out into the ocean with me and if it sinks I'm sorry I'm sorry.

50:53It's my fault where this one is like I'm a crew member of this boat and we're paddling and so it's a big difference in terms of the level of responsibility and what you feel now Larry Sanders from me had its own particular set of challenges the Frazier thing was they were the people I knew from wings and it was you know it's all closer to home and it had been the same style of show that I did on wings so when I chose to I got a job offered to jump from wings to Larry Sanders because I had written a couple Frazier scripts I'm excuse me yeah I'd written a couple Frazier scripts while on wings they liked them they were produced. And they asked me would you want to jump over to Frazier which was what I really wanted and it was a me award winning show I mean who wouldn't want to do that the same time I got offered the Larry Sanders thing and the idea there for some crazy reason which is still don't understand was I'm going to come on board for a year and then I would become the show runner you know layer Gary's always the show runner but you're the person who's executing and I'm going to do that.

52:12And it was like it just seemed like it's a tremendous opportunity to grow and learn because it was just a completely different muscle and so I chose that and I didn't take the Frazier job I went over to Larry Sanders it was a very challenging place I lasted six months or something I'm not even sure how long it was that's a whole thing. Difficult work place oh the person who was supposed to kind of train me the show runner so that I could be learn the learn the show learn Gary learn the whole thing for a season and then run it I hadn't even started yet and he quit because he had problems with Gary. This was all I imagine that that show which I felt was 30 years ahead of its time was strangled to death by the demands of a genius who couldn't get these people to make the show is good as he thought it should be and his standard was the correct standard because he's a very very exceptionally funny person.

53:19I mean such an innovator I mean he did it twice you know the Gary it's Gary's yelling show and Larry Sanders are both two shows that broke the mold that's that's unbelievable and so that's what it made it difficult that was a very mentally challenging place to be because I had so much respect for him and so when he would be disappointed in you. Which I had come to learn was the natural way of things it hurt of course and you would make you go I don't think I maybe belong here I don't know or whatever you're trying so hard and so that that changes that affects your psyche a bit but anyway when I left Larry Sanders for a phrase here was gracious enough to take me back did you feel like you had made a mistake almost instantaneous slip.

54:19So you did you choose the Larry Sanders show also because you thought that care no knock on Kelsey grammar but you thought I want to work with and for Gary Shanley because there's real genius there and I'm not saying there's not with Kelsey grammar. Well there there was a different brand of genius over at Frazier I mean it was winning I mean so every every single year and it was great but again it was I had already written two episodes I knew I could do it and it was the same people that I had been working with on wings. So I just like I said I felt this was going to challenge me so much more and I love the how real it was so real like that's what I want to try to do so even now I could look back and I can say probably wasn't the smartest thing to do but I almost admire the choice it's unbelievable it's as a choice the idea that that young that you would choose I'm going to do the more challenging thing it's on the right hand.

55:22I'm just not unbelievable as a choice I would say but but it was also more counterculture thing it was all groundbreaking seemed more dangerous and none of this is a knock on Frazier I'm telling you like I really respect how ahead of it's time and ridiculous the Larry Sanders show was even understanding that Frazier writing is great and exceptional and historic. This was a different thing I can remember my story where you know I you know I'm thrust into this position that I should not have been in and I mean I had never written a single camera show and suddenly I'm the I'm the show runner here it's a crazy and so we wrote a did a rewrite and when I didn't I put in this thing word to character speak in unison they say something quick thing in unison and I'm Gary wants to see you going to Gary sitting there with this producer who John different who worked with him and and here's like what is this what is this I go what I go this is how people talk I go what do you mean you go it's like you got this thing in these two people are saying this thing in unison and I go I'm sorry I mean it's just a short thing I go I'm sorry I don't quite

56:43understand why that would be a problem and I swear to God in my life both you and John Ziffern at the same time said because no one speaks in unison I swear and I just went okay and and I'm not that's not an example of like how I was right and they were wrong because that's not what I'm saying it's just like that those kind of moments happened constantly and there are there are moments where you're in the show you're pitching on the show and suddenly you would go to life and then go back and you go I'm sorry are we talking is this for the show are we talking about life right now I don't know where we are what does it mean because Gary wants to see you like when you're making that march tell me what it was not good I know I mean I didn't there that you know long I mean you know you go through a period Judd was very Judd is so savvy and and he loved Gary and Gary loved him but Judd told me I would never

57:49judge was a consultant and Judd yeah and Judd would have been the natural person to run that show he should have but he said I would never take that job because if I the minute I take the job then he said something along the lines of then I'm the one with the target on my head and if I am working on other things that I come in a couple of days a week then he knows he's lucky to have me those kind of what an amazing thing to learn though from him the idea that not not from Judd but from Gary from Gary Shanling that that the standards going to be so high that it's going to affect your happiness no one's going to be able to do the job correctly that the feeling of disappointing him not wanting to create that in whatever your future environments because why would you any one anyone to feel that and it takes you a while like especially a show that comes so much from somebody's head part of the job is to get inside their head right you're trying to learn the way he thinks in the ways I didn't

58:51personally I didn't work in late night so I didn't have that experience but nobody thinks like him like like me nobody thinks but you're trying you're really trying and so I remember I was with a friend of mine it was like a good friend of mine and he's a contractor you know he's not in the business and we're talking and we're hanging out and I go I said something he says something I go you hate me don't you and he goes what what are you talking about no of course I don't hate you like he just couldn't believe I said that I go I'm I'm going I go I'm that's that was all Gary like that was such a guy I was so trying to be in his head that I had gotten like sucked into this sort of weird vortex of you know just trying to understand him that that's where it landed me and so you get to Frazier and that's a different experience more comfortable yeah it was more comfortable they were very gracious to take me back I was very lucky but did did you think you'd made a terrible decision like how soon into the Larry Sanders show did you think you had made a horrific decision well

59:54I mean I started to feel like I said it was just getting really difficult by the end where I felt like I was like there's only little side meetings that I'm not involved in where you go from being the shining star oh my god Gary loves you so much he thinks you're amazing whatever to like some you know you just sort of dropped over time and by the way it's a funny side note well I'll push that aside let me finish the story I'm jumping all over the place so then when I when this incident happened on set where an actress did something that came out of nowhere and Gary stormed into his his dressing room and I said to somebody I'm gonna get blamed for this and she said to a writer she said don't be ridiculous of course you're not

1:00:54you know it's nothing I had nothing to do with it I go of course you're not and and sure enough that was like the beginning of the end like it was that shouldn't have happened you know nobody was in charge or whatever it was and it was you know that was the beginning of the end for that well you said you went down quickly six months you said I don't even I couldn't tell you how long it was it was but you want some like greatest thing ever to okay so the funny side note what was the funny side note oh so Gary it was you know it didn't end great because I just was like okay I'm leaving you know I mean at the end of the day I remember Brad Gray saying to me you can either quit I'm not firing you you're not getting fired but it's been my experience someone's Gary turns on somebody you don't get back so I go I'm okay I'm gonna quit thank you I'm gonna quit and then but then Gary and I after modern family I started

1:02:01hearing some things from people that Gary would said nice things about me to people and then I was given an award at the Montreal Comedy Festival of Comedy Writer of the year the same year that he was given a lifetime achievement award and we were the same awards thing and we had a really nice talk and he was very very gracious oh he grew and changed and found they found something else when was the last time you'd seen him before that you know there's occasional bumping into each other and it was never like ugly or anything like that but it was never personally there like you might have wanted it to be personal because he's a hero and disappointment is specifically personal but if he's telling you know why don't hate you what are you talking about like it's not hatred it's how do we make this thing and live to Gary standard which is impossible for almost Gary to meet well all the time it was because he would you know get

1:03:06overwhelmed and you know all of sudden where's Gary he's in Hawaii the things like that would happen but anyway it it I'm glad the way it ended he was very gracious we were very gracious to each other you know I had a chance to for a mappy to say some of the things that you know how nice impactful he was for me and he was very very nice it's clear that some of these relationships could be complicated I haven't even talked to you about how I thought that modern family had the best writing in the history of sitcom television like wherever it is that Aaron Sorkin writes and everyone else writes who do you view as the seminal mountaintop of excellent sitcom writing just the quality of the writing ooh well Carl Reiner you know James L Brooks the Charles brothers and cheers

1:04:10um Gary I'm sure I'm leaving off some some well that just be but I imagine you watch sitcoms at this point differently than the rest of us where you're admiring something that is extraordinarily well written where we'll strike you because not all tell it most television writing is not exceptionally well written yeah and when I see something that's you know really really smart and to speak sometimes a show can be great and and wonderful and everyone loves it and it just doesn't speak to me and that's not because it's not great it's just because that's not what I'm feeling at that particular moment when but when something does come along and you're like wow that's just wow you know are you the ones I remember with modern family came out I said boy if I didn't create this show I would I would have wished I had written I was was working on. What a great feeling that must have been.

1:05:12Yeah. And so I feel that way about certain shows now that I see or shows over the years, you know, like Veepe, you know, as an example or, you know, I was, you know, I admired arrested development and, you know, all sorts of shows, but, but that's a good feeling, you're right. Veepe, obviously exceptional, but I don't put that in the network television. No, you're a different category for me. I'm going to get to this quick session with you, which is just sort of, I'm going to pepper you with a handful of questions that are meant to be quicker than what we've been doing, but just to close the loop on it, what happened to reboot, what nefarious corporate interests, what there was nothing, nothing, there's not a good story there. I wish there was a better story. I don't think it's for lack of people wanting it to work or whatever. It came on. It didn't get the numbers that they needed. There were shows that were getting the

1:06:16same numbers that were less expensive. And, but it also felt invisible at the time. We did a test because we were going, I nobody even knows this thing is on. And we did a test through a company where they, you know, use brand new computers and brand new Apple TVs and whatever. And they went on. They got signed up for Hulu accounts and whatever. And then they would watch five episodes of Modern Family and not once were they ever directed to, oh, if you like Modern Family, here's reboot. And often people would say, I can't find it on Hulu. You know, it was, it was strange. I think that Hulu's UI was especially bad. And, you know, if I, in hindsight, what I should have done is paid for it myself and gotten a big social media campaign going, that I think that that was, I was relying on you totally right them. And it just, it didn't,

1:07:22because there were great moments. And to this day, people, here's the thing that you are right to trust here. If you know something is good and you've poured your heart into it, then it's good. And so if it wasn't being, that for sure, anyone who knew that from the maker of Modern Family, here's what he wants to do next. And he cares about it. Of course, that would succeed if you simply got it to your audience. My friend of mine, or guy that I know, he's definitely a friend, but he was a very big person at the company. And he had left. And he said, how did that show get cancelled? Like how did get cancelled? Like, oh, you know, I don't know, it's been really frustrating, whatever. He says, it was really good. That's the hard part. Like you did your job. That's the hard part. That other part, they have to find the audience for

1:08:23you because it was really, really good. And that's the way I kind of feel like it did. It was hard. That was, it was kind of painful for me because I really, like I said, I didn't have a lot of patience for the bullshit anymore. And then when that happened, I'm like, oh, man, do I really want to, it's not even anger, right? You've had success. You know what's good. Your joy is you pour your heart into something that should see the light of day easier. And it was a really happy set. And everybody was so looking forward to come back. We had a new, a new season of scripts written that were good. Oh, I'm sorry. That's heartbreaking. But without being invasive before I get to the invasive. Well, I was just wondering if you could take me around the the skeleton of what modern family residuals house any of that works. Like is this literally enriching? Or is it just spiritually enriching? Like the way it should be for the creator of something

1:09:24like this or to someone else on it and make all of the money off of it? Chris Lloyd by co-creator. And I own a nice piece of the show. And no one should feel sorry for us. We did, we did quite well. We do quite well on that. You told me to be invasive. And now you're I'm comfortable with me being invasive. I don't mean what I'm not going to, you know, start naming numbers. But it I think that those days are going to be, you know, fewer and farther between for creators. That kind of those kinds of payoffs are. Oh, you're in the last helicopter out of Saigon, sir. The door was closing. Thomas Grange was rolling under the door. Oh, yeah, you got out. You got out of exactly the right time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're telling you exactly right. All right, quick question, sir. What keeps you up at night? Oh my god, everything, everything, everything going on in my day, every I'm a thinker. I'm an

1:10:28overthinker. I literally I wake up. My whole thing is my friend calls it the hour of doubt. You get up in the middle of the bathroom and they don't think don't think don't think don't think don't just get better. Just just don't think don't think don't think and then you're like, oh, I got to call that guy and then it starts. And so it all of the above. Yeah, poster on your wall as a child. Verifos it. I was very quick. You answered very quickly with a young boy's lust in your heart. Yeah, last time you cried. I lost a very good friend two years ago. Last time you cried from gratitude. I wish I knew the answer for that. I've just recently started experiencing

1:11:30that. So I'm not letting you do that. Well, I just lost my brother and I was deeply in love with a woman who changed my life. And so I'm seeing more things that there are to appreciate whatever you and Tyberrell were talking about at the height of you know, it doesn't get any better than this. Like that can move you to tears under the right circumstances if you're with someone who's who you love. Yeah. And you're both sort of simpatico on like look look at what we just experienced. I did get remarried a few years ago and to a lovely and hilarious woman who does constantly remind me how amazing my life is. Oh, they're much better than us though in terms of like we're all imprinted by an assortment of male repression. Yes, I agree with that. They are tapped into a different frequency. And but I so I it may not it bring me to tears but I just will say that I do genuinely

1:12:35take stock because again when you look I lost it you know this very good friend. And I did have that sort of survivor's guilt or a little bit of like there but for the grace of God. I mean I how is it that I'm so lucky to be here still and he's not and and that changed me in a pretty meaningful way. Well, I don't know how much more experience you have with grief and we were supposed to be doing fun and light here and I ruined it by asking you the last time that some tears got through the repressed emotions in your soul. But death will or grief will change you like especially if you insist on examining it and really feeling it. It's easier to move around. Yeah. Anyway, that's well said. Thank you. Person you're an awe of. Oh boy. I'm terrible at these questions because 40 people will come into my head. First one you thought of is fine.

1:13:40Like you don't have to respect everybody. You know, it's not going to be so much a person is I mean awe of of selfless people who go out of their it's not a good answer. It's such a sounds kind of sound lame who do the thankless things in this world that that you know sometimes it's sometimes it's people you know in the public sector it's people who work I mean you know all people who run dog rescues. You've been in Hollywood so long that you have noticed nothing but selfishness and vanity at every turn. So somebody who's made happy by just doing things that are not selfish and vain you're odd by. I'm odd by I'm going to use this animal thing as an example.

1:14:43I'm odd by people. I love dogs so much. I get involved in animal rescues in a here's some money way. I keep saying I can't go out and do the actual hard part because my I'm going to my heart will break I'm going to take every dog home. I don't know what I'm going to do. I distance myself I'm not proud of that but I'm so in awe of the people who are able to do that and it's often do it with not the resources that they need and they make such sacrifices that nobody owes me as much as that. Most real love risks loss I think like so like in order to be the most vulnerable version of yourself in the most loving ways you got to know that something you're going to get your heart broken. Yeah eventually yeah. Get your heart right. I yeah. What's something you do that

1:15:45everybody in your family would say is annoying. I dictate texts. Yeah. Tell him to go fuck himself period. I don't need to hear this from him anymore. Exclamation point. What is the most rewarding part of the job? I mean it's the cliche but having written. Having written hearing a giant laugh hearing there's just nothing like writing a laugh writing a joke and hearing that giant laugh. It's as big as it is. Well you say that but the biggest laugh I think I gave you during this was in and it was silent it was almost totally silent is when you said that you're walking reprimanded you don't understand how much I loved that show the Larry Sanders show and and could see some of the frailties and insecurities in it all around it even the ones that weren't

1:16:47meant to be seen I felt like for you to be being yelled at or be disappointing and not even be able to laugh at the funny of their line because I'm sure they didn't even know they didn't find it but they said it at the same time and no one in the room was laughing. Nobody acknowledged it. That's I mean but that's the that's I mean now it would be such a great scene such a moment to write that. If I was doing if I was doing the script on the Larry Sanders show. 100% going in yes. Thank you sir I enjoyed this. You're you're very kind and you're very good at your job and thank you very much. You're pretty good at your job too. You're pretty good too. Don't don't let Gary Shanling the genius make you think any less. The work in progress. You'll get there. Thank you.