SPECIAL EPISODE 26: Swiftynomics: How Women Mastermind and Redefine Our Economy!

This is Akafe.

This episode contains loose spoilers from Swiftynomics, with mentions of Asoka and Star Wars, for full list, please see show notes.

Hi everybody, welcome to Akafe, your weekly deep dive into the fantasy literature and fandoms that we love.

I'm Laura Marie, and I'm Jessica Marie.

And today we are kicking off International Women's Month.

By discussing women's impact on the economy and society.

But I feel like this isn't a new topic for people who have been with us the whole time, or catching up on back catalogs.

I am a nerd for the economy, I would have double majored in economics, if I didn't want to graduate sooner.

But I feel like if you have been joining us, I just think that we're always discussing our impact on both the economy and society through different fandoms and different lenses.

And it's always just kind of sprinkled into our conversation.

But I do think that it felt like an appropriate time, even though every time is appropriate, for us to discuss our impact on the world.

Our impact on the economy, I had an idea on how to do this, and I pitched it to Jess, and she agreed.

And then we looked at the concert ticket date, and we just thought, oh my goodness, well, so not to angels or anything, we are family.

We're very young here, we're very young here.

However, I posed the question to Jess Camry, and that was, do you remember the first time that you made an economic impact on your community?

Because something was coming to town.

Like some event was happening, a concert was happening, a circus was coming, like something, and it was a special event was coming to town.

And like your parents or your friends, or like somebody made it a big deal, a bonding deal, and you remember it to this day and you went.

That was the question.

And the answers are wonderful.

Well, I remember two of mine in very different veins, and I feel like one that I loosely remember, it was my first concert, it came to town, it was amazing.

It was in sync.

And I went with my neighbor and her parents, they got the tickets, and we went and it was, we had a time, we got the concert shirts, all the things.

But I think the first time I remember making an impact and making like this girlhood experience was when Britney Spears came to town.

And again, I say came to town, I didn't live in this town, I still lived about like 45 minutes an hour outside of where she came.

But I remember going for the merch and wearing, I still remember the outfit that I wore because I remember nobody else was going to have it because I got the top and I got the top in the skirt in Spain when I went.

I knew like nobody was going to have my outfit and it was so fun.

I remember going to the merch stand and I they had shirts for younger kids too.

And I was like, I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to get one for my little sister and we're going to match.

And then we would just say like what we would say we would call like let's play twin on the weekend and we would just walk around in our Britney shirts.

I think it was the first time that I made this like conscious economic decision to drive an hour away from my hometown.

I went with a friend I got ready I did the merch we had we had a car we were driving we didn't rely on our parents like the money was earned by us.

I feel like it was it was Britney Spears. What about yours? Well, shocking probably no one mine was also Britney Spears.

Specifically mine was the dropping crazy tour on March 3rd 2000. She came to my town and my best friend at the time and I were inside the venue.

And we went forward tickets and I saw that show front row and he and I yes it was a guy he and I made the front page of the paper.

It was amazing, but my parents and his parents made it such a big deal like such a big deal like we were best friends at the time we and so it was me.

My best friend his sister and then their cousin. It was like the four of us and they were older.

Did they when getting tickets to they got tickets they didn't win for our tickets though. So we were separated it was a huge thing.

Oh my gosh because this it was a difficult it was difficult time communication was not what it was during this time period.

So it was what we had to find each other afterwards. It was crazy. It was crazy.

But our our parents like we they our parents rented a limo like took us out to dinner. I went with my mom and like I got a new outfit.

We got like our hair and our nails done like it was an event to go and it it was very like important to me.

It's very important to him and we are huge fans and like our parents kind of like really respected that and like kind of played into that.

And I looking back on it I wonder if that is because they didn't have that experience growing up.

However they grew up in an era where they could see all these amazing bands for like five dollars and like someone's fucking basement.

Don't ever ask your parents about what bands they saw as kids and how much tickets were. It'll make you fucking sick.

I'm absolutely gonna ask your mom next time I see her.

And make you fucking sick the stories that they will tell you. Jesus Christ.

Anyway that was my first experience with this and I looking back on it it was a huge economic boost to the town.

It kind of like people were talking about our town. I could not believe that this huge act was coming there.

It was it was amazing. It made me feel special in this small little town because this huge act was coming and it was a pleasure.

And it was exciting and it was a joy to like be out and about like in your new outfit walking around before you get to the venue like checking in and like seeing all of this stuff.

It was such a wonderful experience and then like the separate experience of like it was like a contest or whatever that the manager was running inside the venue.

It was like you know if you see us and we see that you're huge fans. We're gonna take pictures of you for Britney scrapbook and then we'll give you these from our tickets.

And my friend had a Brittany Barbie doll that he had strong on a necklace around his neck.

And he had different outfits for it and he could change them out and it was it was a whole thing and the guy taking the pictures was like that's amazing.

Like shining that hold up the dolls like it was it was this whole thing and we got front tickets and it it was just it was crazy and the other crazy thing was to that he and I were both like no one is gonna believe us.

Like it was the time it was a time it was a place like who's gonna believe us but then we were on the front page of the paper and it was like everyone believed us.

It was like we had all of this proof. So that was such a huge economic impact.

Now that is both Jessica Marie and I separately. Jessica Marie now together.

You and I was just telling we've done a few. I was telling someone our first concert we did together today.

You know together you and I have traveled to many states to attend many different genres of music and it is been a wonderful experience every single time.

Now our first concert would you like to share that?

When we went to UCS course. Of course. I mean it was a celebration of sorts. So you can so so a variety of activities were involved precursing the event itself.

But again it's an event. It was a moment we got ready. I mean we went with two other of our friends that we still know today.

And it was I mean it was a girl had experience if there ever was wine. I mean we had the you you were driving per usual.

And we it was the music was blasting the windows were down we were having a time I lost a shoe.

It was it was wonderful. It was magical and I still love that we get to share that experience.

All these years later because even all these years later one I say one actually a couple of the people that we still love to travel for still actually go on tour.

And then it's just a matter of us either like am I coming to you? Are you coming here? What are we doing? This is so fun. We've never done we haven't gone to this place before and sometimes it's interesting to see the trend.

You know we talk about how the economy has driven in different cities. We've seen such a shift in people thinking you are limited to staying in the town that you are you live in.

And seeing an artist and I feel like it's become more popular to travel for artists that you you you like.

And I think artists are picking up on that too because you have you know people who have residences you have people who just have you know set in one city you have you know.

You know like okay well I'm going to go on a tour the one of the artists that we know they just announced okay I'm only going to do three shows you know three cities this year it's going to be long beach filly and I can't remember the third one off the top of my head.

Um Chicago you know but then last year they said I'm only going to do one for the entire year and it's going to be red rocks.

And then you have artists like Harry Styles who's doing three months at Madison Square Garden in 12 days at Wembley Stadium.

And then you have others who just choose to do a residency which Britney Spears also did and it's very sad if you read her book of how that was dictated also but then you have people who didn't dictate.

How many times have I seen Gaga in Vegas and I was fine with it you know and I know there's a lot of conversation around both artists who travel to your city and then artists who don't which forces those travel expenses on to fans all which to say it's still driving the economy.

There's a conversation to be had about Harry Styles and ticket prices and we're going to have that conversation however I do want to point out that the economy.

When we're talking about the economy we're not just talking about the United States economy although that seems like pretty obvious I specifically.

I'm specifically using the example of when editor Sam and I went to Berlin to see Britney when she was on tour we were living outside of Munich at the time.

And we traveled to Berlin which you know doesn't sound like anything but it's a son of a bitch when you have to do it without a car and with luggage and it's pain and we did we did it and we stayed overnight and it was this whole huge thing and we did put our little amount of money into that economy for those that weekend that we were there.

And that is also part of it she didn't do other shows like if she had done a show closer to us we would have gone to that but she did one I think only one German show and that was it it was been Berlin you either go where you don't.

And I think that's another that's part of the conversation like Harry Styles is doing all of these stops in New York year to go or you don't like whatever he doesn't care like it is what it is but the conversation about Harry Styles and ticket prices.

I kind of want to use that as a reflection on Taylor Swift and her ticket prices and just that is both of those are something that you can speak on almost expertly.

So I've gone to Harry Styles I did two of his his last tour I think was 2022 loved it it was amazing I did two shows at Madison Square Garden couldn't and ticket master experience was also very different.

I bought one ticket I went by myself I'm kind of just like I do I want I go to a lot of things for myself but I was just I'm just happy to be in the room I got through the Great War went to two shows paid $54 and 50 cents I think it was it was amazing it was great.

I'm such a different experience this time it held didn't get tickets I tried I mean what are you going to do.

And again there's a lot of conversations going there there flip it over to Taylor Swift I feel like everybody villainized Taylor when ticket master crashed when she when her ticket prices were all over the place.

And I want it to be like noted if you're following if you're not aware her ticket price she did not.

She did not lean into dynamic ticket pricing she locked that she goes these are my set ticket prices just because there's a high demand that doesn't fluctuate the ticket price.

I've been able to see many of her shows I went once to 1989 three reputation and three eras stores all at ticket master her baseline price.

I did I think was reputation four seats were 125. I did eras store all at cost all under 250 two of the shows that of her eras store that I went to I left the country just like you saw Britney and Berlin I left to see two of her shows in Canada it and talking about driving the economy my money drove Toronto's economy drove Canada's economy.

It was not going to drive the US economy I tried I tried to go to my more New York shows I tried to go to the Philly shows try to go the Miami shows because I have family in Florida I could not it would not make sense one ticket on stub hub was more than me leaving the country.

Getting tickets staying eating all of that room board travel and coming back that was the cost of one ticket price for Taylor and again it's not Taylor's fault it was the scalpers it was the system it's all the conspiracy theories that you believe that holds with ticket master those are true and I think it was so quick for everybody to villainize Taylor.

A woman and I think this is the first time that I've seen a man getting backlash over their ticket prices when it comes to Harry specifically they are extremely expensive correct yeah I haven't even either I think I tried to sit in the queue a couple times and it said your ticket prices are going to be between 50 and whatever it was.

But nobody ever got like I don't I don't recall seeing anybody ever seen those $50 I use an air quotes baseline prices because dynamic ticket ticket pricing was not turned off and essentially what I didn't put ticket pricing is if you're not familiar with ticket master system if there is a high demand for an artist and a high demand for tickets you essentially have a baseline price but if everybody I mean it's God it's you know it's the definition of inflation like the you know.

The economics if there's high demand there's going to be a high cost involved with it and it fluctuates that way if the dynamic ticket pricing isn't turned off and ultimately it's not on ticket master it's on the artist and their team whatever agreement and you know you could say it's the artist I do blame the artist to an appoint because I've seen it be done I've seen.

The dynamic ticket pricing turn off Taylor has done it Billy has Billy's done I will not resell my tickets unless it's at cost Oasis has done that too you can you cannot resell the tickets Billy has done you cannot resell the tickets unless it's the same amount that you paid for so it's it when you know things can be done I think that frustrates fans even more because it's not this situation of well where's what's the work around there has to be a way there is a way.

We've seen a way so why isn't that across the board while we live in a capitalist society just can we tell me about the sentence.

Girls can't like anything because we can't they take it away from us all the time I feel like we you see that conversation maybe it was last year the year before.

They don't leave they all use a soka as an example everybody and I think I remember I told you I go this is good and people are going to hate on it the first time because I think I saw the first three episodes at one time.

I think this is good and it makes me angry at the other side I'm not familiar with Star Wars but it's the it's the organ story of like the quote unquote bad guys but they're not bad as we know how everyone in origin story is but it is very.

Female centric what I mean it's it's great and many just in toes in it everybody and it was so funny because.

I feel like if people don't jump on the conversation in media right away and it doesn't become this viral thing right away it's automatically not

renewed for another season something happens and that typically happens with content that people that women love I say people that women or I just just say like and it was funny that it wasn't picked up.

Then you see the conversation going online like this is absolutely the female gaze what is happening how is it canceled why is it canceled you didn't even get it give it a chance to

breathe and to grow you automatically wrote it off.

And then Laura I feel like you can speak to this a lot more to again in the Star Wars vein when it comes to conversation surrounding Kylo.

Oh Kylo Kylo that Kylo is a very interesting example and I'm not sure if you you're pointing me this way but this is the way that I'm going to take it Kylo is.

Is an emotional email boy is a mission email boy who shows his emotions frequently in public and while not ashamed of them it is embarrassing to watch and if that were a woman.

Oh no oh no we would not be like haha we're too emotional yeah that that would not fly and the the example of that is we have Laura Dern and her character.

Stoke is fuck going down with her ship spoilers I guess but you know stoke is hell.

You know we're not showing emotions there Kylo is crashing out screaming more more more it is that's a really interesting example too because if a woman did that she would be villainized and we see women villainized the media constantly.

And if we circle back around to Taylor Swift like that could be the ultimate.

You know villain in the media she's been planted as that time and time and time again and especially now that the conversation we're having this conversation in 2026 in the beginning part of the year.

Opalite is still a single and there are all these different remixes and they keep saying that Taylor Swift is greedy well she's not greedy enough.

There are certain things that I would like that don't exist that cannot be bought so she's not greedy enough that's what I have to say about that but that conversation exists she's too greedy she's a billionaire what is she doing why is she giving all of this you know giving all of this why is she giving us all of this.

Why is this artist being so generous with their art they're giving us all of these different variations of our of her art.

She must be selfish and want our money she must not be wanting to share that conversation is not being had.

Well you know what conversation isn't being had also when it comes to being so selfish and taking all of this stuff and learn I know you and I have had these conversations and private to about how women.

How much they give back how much they stimulate the economy and you know what you can go ahead and have your own insight and I'm sure it's part of it to because people are smart about donating to the communities and donating your money and you see it firsthand and yes you get a tax break everybody if you're going to have to if you're going to.

Be given a system you have to learn how to work the system right but if that's the case you don't see men doing it you see you you see every city and it's on record every city was she was donating to you know food resources and has stimulated the economy and I think one of the.

Cities in Ireland and I'm sure this isn't the only one I know norlands is another one as well there's they feel so comfortable and set for three years following her tour with the amount that she donated to food kitchens that they are in a comfortable place at least for three years one person had that impact because she came to their town that town welcome them and it drove the economy and that's an addition to the economy that was driven from the artist.

Being there Beyoncé does it to Beyoncé does it internationally and it goes back to the conversation of people having to travel and also traveling internationally and it's still more cost effective than staying domestically in the States but nobody talks about how.

These artists have stimulated the economy in that way and in a selfless way I guess you can say again you're villain is and I know we talked about this in one of our earlier twenty twenty one episodes maybe it was February or March when I.

Was starting to unlearn my internal eyes and so I need that I had against Taylor Swift specifically and seeing certain documentaries and again.

Being able if you take your prejudices away could be like okay fact she's kind of badass she doesn't have to do this nobody has to do it because again if we would have more people giving back to the community more billionaires giving back to society if they if they cared enough she's not being forced to care that's a good point because I have any men do this how many men do that.

How many male artists on towards you that well I would think it was just released a list of like the top ten billionaires and out of like and they were like the top ten.

Men billionaires and the only person within like their lifetime that's given the most it was like thirty seven percent of their income has been donated was war and buffet and everybody else was under like one percent.

Yeah and not like everybody else everybody else on this list of men was under one percent of their lifetime ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous I am interested now when whenever Taylor decides to go back on tour if she does decide to go back on tour in the future now that she has to oh my God she oh my gosh rest recover rejuvenate get married relax when she does if if.

If she doesn't give back to the community in the same way that she did during the era's tour by golly you're going to hear about it that's going to be that's going to be a news story I am interested now to see if she has set a standard of behavior that it will be frowned upon if you don't follow.

You see what I'm saying because like Harry's going to be in New York for how long what's he doing yeah I guess through know that what's he going to do three days a week what's he going to do I I understand I understand that he is there but he's also like there he's not traveling he he people are traveling.

For this show yeah so he is in a position to do much more for the city for his fans in line like all of these all of these things I'm so I'm interested to see what that looks like and if there is a set standard or if there is or if that standard is set and only women follow it or only people of a certain.

Tax back if I am just I'm interested in I'm interested in all of this and how these trends play out in the future and it's the people under the microscope to because Taylor's under the microscope Beyonce's under the microscope because you know she was under the microscope hard as hell with cowboy Carter and she gave back she has.

She has an active fill in for me be good I can't remember like all of the details of it but again you have women under the microscope held to the standard and they've set their own standard so high that the only people who can.

I'll pace them as themselves you know but again.

Man do the bare minimum what have the confidence of a mediocre white man that's I mean mediocre blood and some of this it's very below the bar and.

It's it's just interesting that it's just so quick to villainize women and everything despite the continuous.

Giving back to society to the economy to these cities and to speak more on this acafé welcomes a very special guest and our new friend economist misty hagginess who is the author of her newest release swifty

omics how women mastermind and redefine our economy welcome misty welcome thanks for having me now we are very excited to talk to you about your book but we kind of want to start the conversation.

By saying thank you thank you for taking the time thank you for sharing your expertise on the topic of economics which is not something that we have covered on the podcast but which is a love of just come re one of our co host right here so Jessica why don't you tell us about economics and why we love pop culture.

Well I think that for me everything obviously the world operates in economy and I feel like like you've brought up in your book.

Kind of the stigma surrounding women in economy in these spaces in these fields in these conversations which is so interesting when we drive so much of it especially with you use Taylor Swift you use beyond to you use these pop culture artists to drive the conversation and hone in the importance of the impact that we're making yeah I mean it's really important and there's so much going on in today's world with.

Women and women as drivers of consumption in the economy and you know economic growth i'm just thinking now about this week of our you know these few couple weeks that we've been having of the Olympics and all of these women who are just rocking it and winning all these metals and yeah it's just fun to see and you know since I'm trained in economics I see things through that lens and I just thought it would be fun to.

To write a book about you know what that looks like and kind of delineate that for people how long do that process take you.

Well so I consider myself a pandemic author in the sense that you know I was at home with my family in 10 and 12 year old and doing a lot of work on looking at what was happening with mothers and paid work.

And I started blogging and I just really really enjoyed it and I just decided you know I wanted to take on writing a book and writing a book about the modern woman I feel like we get so caught up in these stereotypical kind of tropes of how women exist in the world and how we.

The balance work with family and so I wanted to write a book and it took me a couple years to get a book proposal together and to find a publisher and an editor and so I probably started seriously writing the book in 2022.

And here we are in 2026 so it took me about two to three years to write it and then it's the last year has been it's been with the publisher getting ready for publication.

And of course your book is a swift dynamics how women mastermind and redefine our economy and I have to ask in your book you go to Taylor Swift's concert you you write about your experience there and I would like to ask.

What is your love of pop culture has it always been there is something you have rediscovered is is something like this always been important to you I ask because.

The conversation around women rediscovering the things that they loved as teenagers when they get older and loving it you know with their full chest unabashedly without shame is something that I love and it find very important and I am curious if that journey is similar to you.

Yeah so I mean I would say that I haven't always been a pop culture geek like I you know I'm a super nerdy economist and I love numbers and statistics and doing research but I really started paying attention to Taylor Swift in 2019 and as I was thinking about the concepts for this book I just.

It became more and more had more and more admiration for her career path and the way the way that she's maneuvered herself in her career.

And so I just started following her a lot in what she was doing and then that just brought me into this whole world of pop culture and you know watching all the awards shows and keeping up with the latest you know streaming shows and all the things so it's really.

You know this book is given me excuse to get really back into pop culture and you know thinking about the ways in which you know the cutting edge trends of society and entertainment really do speak volumes about who we are as people and the state of the world and so it's just been really fun to be able to explore this space more.

Did you have a favorite part of the process because I feel like you have different levels I'll say Swifties and then you have some people who are fans that won't necessarily category as themselves that that type of fan of people who can appreciate Taylor Swift which is everything is valid.

At what point in your process like you said it was 2019 you consider yourself a pandemic writer.

Was there a lot of back cataloging because I know for myself I think I grew into appreciation the more I did research you know I had known her music but it came with like wait she has this documentary wait she's doing this other thing like what was that experience like and did you have a favorite part in doing that research.

Yeah so think about it like that and then exponentially right so it became not only like oh Taylor Swift has a documentary let's check that out and oh my gosh I didn't all these things but then it became who is the Baywatch Pamela Anderson.

Yes thank you Pamela Anderson you know she has this documentary I don't know if you guys have seen it but she just talks about her life from her perspective and the way that she's living her life now and so I just started getting into that and then just started seeing all of the ways in which you know some of the things that are fun to watch are like you know you get into football because Taylor is dating this football guy.

And so then you start watching like the way in which the football guys show up to the games you know they all have their fits now which you know and so I don't know I just it was just a ton of fun to kind of explore and and you know with social media and algorithms these days like you start you see one thing and you kind of stick on it and then all of a sudden like you get all this other stuff and so yeah I mean part of the the piece that was the I would say the same thing but I was like that.

That was the, I would say the funnest for me was just that exploration of this other material

that exists about like Taylor's past life and also just all this other material that

exists about other women that I wrote about.

The other thing too is I just started finding really fun stories about women in the past.

So you know, Dolly Parton, there's this podcast I think it is called It's Dolly's America

and we're just living in it or something like that and it tells this whole fun story

about Dolly Parton in her life and so it's just it was really fun to kind of as somebody

who primarily does research using data and numbers, going back in and reading and watching

some of these stories about really powerful women of our past was a lot of fun.

Well you speak on Dolly and it's so interesting because I feel like she's another great example

when we talk about philanthropic endeavors that women take on and kind of just because

we want to, just because we care.

But you don't have that conversation happening with men and entertainment either.

So I didn't know, did you find, what was your, did you find any research specifically

because Dolly Parton is very philanthropic.

We know that Taylor Swift was through her era's tour, how she's impacted the cities both

on micro and macro level, both, you know, it's just interesting, I would love to hear

your take on all of that.

Well, I mean, I have a take but it's not backed up scientifically by new data, but you

know, you think about, okay, so let's talk about this, the Apple TV series loot that came

out recently, right?

And that's all about this woman who divorces her, you know, whatever billionaire husband

and, you know, they, he made his money while they were together, so they kind of made

it together.

And then she's left with all this money and then she gets the fill, I don't know if you

guys seen the show, but she gets like the philanthropic branch of the business and then she

goes into philanthropy and like gives away all her money and Maya and I'm not going to

know her last time just from Saturday Night Live is like the main character, so good.

But, you know, that's just represent, again, that's another example where pop culture

is really telling us stories about the lived experiences that the people around us.

And so, I mean, you know, not everybody is not very common that, you know, any of us

know millionaires or billionaires, but just in society, you know, you've got Melinda Gates

who started Pivotal Ventures, you know, now divorced from Bill Gates and started Pivotal

Ventures and she's giving out a whole bunch of money, really focused on women and advancing

women and young women and women's health.

I think this Apple TV series, Lute, is kind of loosely based off of McKinsey Jeff

Basel's first wife and she's known for giving away a bunch of money and so it's unclear

to me, so I think, you know, the unscientific part that I will tell you is that yes women

are much more likely to be philanthropic, they're much more likely to care about their

communities, they're much more likely to see value in reinvesting and distributing resources

throughout the community.

Now, the reason why I say that's not a day to driven response on Maya is because this

is just what I see, you know, and it's kind of like, you buy a new green car and you

go driving on the street and all of a sudden all the cars are green, like you see all these

green cars and so who knows, like, how much of that is true and then the other piece

for me is, I don't know how much of that is women do it because we want to or women do

it because we're socially conditioned to, because we, you know, society expects us to be

givers and providers and in that way, so I don't know, but it's definitely true that

it's much more common to see women, you know, acting in that philanthropic way.

Now, you are an economist and we are thrilled that you are here and we're talking about

your book.

I would like to know because there are so many moving pieces in your book, there are

figures and things to look at and it is very lovely, I have to say, the reading experience

is very enjoyable.

How did you organize this to write it out?

How did you, like, decide chapters are going to cover this and this is the data that's

going to go here and also adding to that?

How did you, like, find all of this research and pull it to you and decide what was relevant

and what was not because I'm sure that there is a wide variety of things that you can pull

from.

So how did you kind of go through this organizational writing process?

That's a really great question.

You know, I think I started, so this was a book that I didn't take time off to write

this book.

So, you know, I had my day job, which is, I'm a professor and when I started the book,

I wasn't a professor, I was working as a research economist in the federal government, but

so I basically wrote this book evenings and weekends and I just started by writing stories

that I thought were interesting and that were, like, fun for me to write.

So since I was doing it, more or less as an extracurricular activity, if you will, you

know, my leisure time, whatever however you want to think about it, I just wanted, I wanted

to write it and it made me happy working on the writing process and so I just kind of,

I would come up with ideas that would focus on a particular thing or person and I would

write those first and so I think one of the first things I did was just write out the

story of the era's tour because, you know, I went, you know, quote unquote, book research

so I had to go and so I just wrote that out first or, you know, towards the beginning

because I wanted to write while I was having that experience before I would forget.

And then a lot of the other stuff, when you get more into the middle of the book, it's

a lot more meaty in terms of, like, economic theory and I try to, like, merge pop culture

with economic theory which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, but that's all stuff

that, you know, I was trained in and so those are all, you know, theories and concepts

that I just knew because of my training and so I think that the more challenging piece

there was finding examples in, again, in pop culture in general kind of community that

would be interesting to overlay with some of the, you know, more nerdy stuff so that,

you know, I could keep readers engaged in the storyline.

But that was also the fun part because that was, like, a little bit of the stretch.

So, I mean, I use this example of Marie Kondo and, you know, her whole, like, obsession

with whatever the Kondo method or whatever it became where it's like, if something doesn't

give you joy, you throw it away and I equate her to the, you know, way in which economists

today think about the world and their models and, and then I go on to, you know, without

giving away too much of the book, but then I go on to kind of, you know, bust that myth

both from Marie Kondo and for economists and so I don't know, it's just fun.

I love pop culture and I love thinking about, and I love economics and so it just, you

know, merging the two together was a lot of fun.

And yeah, I don't, I don't know how much more I can say about the process.

I mean, I knew I had, I wanted to focus on women and so when you think about the lived

experiences of women, there's kind of like a lifeline there, right?

Like you're a kid, you know, you're a girl, then you're a teenager, then, you know,

you're adult and then you have kids and then Yada Yada.

And so part of the book kind of goes in that order of kind of the order of our lives.

One thing you do very well in this book is like Laura said, everything is laid out.

You tie into lyrics, you make everything digestible.

And I do think, and I say that in a way is I think that there is a stigma that comes

with anything that, you know, when it comes to studying the economy, having economic

discussions, there is a stigma that it can be a dry conversation or some people might

think it's overwhelming.

I don't know how to, how do you begin to have those conversations?

And you have written a book and you have shared data information that intertwines personal

stories and stories of people that you know and collated like, you know, other people's

shared experiences that make it so applicable, we're like, wait, economy can be like, this

can be fun.

And I'm that person like, I had a professor and undergrad that that's where she made

me love economics where I was sharing with Laura earlier.

I would love if I didn't want to graduate so fast, I would double major.

I just, I'm a nerd for I find it so fascinating, but I, but I intertwine my personal experience

with being a fan girl, being a feminist, understanding my personal drive.

And like, if people just listen to us, we run the world, we just like Beyonce says,

who runs the world girls, because we do, we drive so much.

And again, like you said, you even have these meteor chapters of the impact that women

have staying at home and that within itself.

I mean, I think women are also finding themselves and realizing the work that's done outside

of the quote unquote nine to five, we know that it's a full time job and you're finding

women building LLCs, even under the family moniker.

So it shows that drive and it shows, I mean, I also did a paper where if you break down

every role the woman has in the household, those are separate positions that are hired

for separate different salaries at big conglomerates and small businesses.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's totally true.

I have, you know, on my website, I have my resume or my CV.

And on there, I have 2003 to the present.

And then I say something like, oh, heganespasguñan household.

So my last name and my spouse's last name, I don't know if I say LLC, but something like

that.

And then I have a motto there that says, raising semi well-rounded kids since 2008, which

is the year my daughter was born.

But I think it's so important for women to just, you know, claim, like claim all of that

work and effort that we do that's largely invisible that, you know, we don't directly

get paid for, but we disproportionately do it in the household.

And yeah, those are skill sets that make us super marketable in the labor market, you

know, if employers would recognize them.

And I don't know for me, I'm like, one of the ways to get people to recognize it is I'm

going to make the invisible visible by adding it to the list of jobs and skills and qualifications

that I've had.

Well, and absolutely.

And, you know, small changes like that add up over time.

And eventually we can really, really make change in these, these kind of sectors of life.

The, the invisible kind of like caregiver for our parents, but also, you know, raising

children and also, you know, being a caregiver to our husband is an exhausting kind of situation

that is unique to the experience of the woman in that situation.

And I love that you highlight the, like the mental state that that can kind of like put

on people, the isolation and also there's resources and also women have decided, you

know, I'm going to build a community about this because there needs to be help.

And if no one is going to do it, then by God, I'm going to do it.

And, and that kind of, you know, strengthen numbers kind of situation is also wonderful.

And I am interested then in the, and this is something that just came re and I say a

lot on a cafe, but the idea that like girls can't like anything, like women can't like

anything because as soon as they do, and even though it's making billions and billions

of dollars, like the romance genre, it is looked at with disdain and it would no respect.

Everybody is just turning their nose up at it.

And, you know, that is kind of in the same vein as like all of this invisible work that

women do because as soon as you start, you know, listing everything, people kind of go,

okay, that's enough.

And so like we need to keep talking about these things and it is so important that we stand

up for ourselves over and over and over again.

And it is wonderful to have the numbers behind all of this that you give us to kind of

reference and look and say actually know though, because look at all of this data and research

that we have here, we are important even though all of these other factors are trying to make

us feel shame about all these things.

Yeah, I mean, one of my biggest goals with this book, I mean, I've got a couple of them,

but one of them is to really, and it's one of something that I think that Taylor actually

does really well, but it's not internalizing the misogyny, right?

It's not internalizing other people's issues with the way that you behave or other people's

issues with the things that you choose to like.

You know, I mean, Taylor has always been a huge fan of pink glittering cats, right?

And you know, that's something that society is, you know, you just think about like all

the stereotypes about the, you know, single old lady with cats or whatever that historically

are floated around.

And I think, you know, Taylor's such a great role model because, you know, she's fine with

other people, you know, thinking what they think or doing what they want or, you know,

having these opinions, but she's not going to let it change her behavior necessarily.

And she's just going to keep on being who she is.

And I think there's lots of role models and pop culture today that are like that.

So I think Taylor's one, I think Beyonce is one, you know, clearly from another generation,

Dolly Parton is one.

If we're thinking about now in the Olympics, I'm really inspired by Alyssa Liu, who she

like won the gold medal and skating in her whole story.

It's kind of been all over the news, but she basically stepped away from skating when she

was I think 16 and then came back and said, I want to do this because I really enjoy it,

but I want to do it in my way.

And you know, that's the thing that Taylor has consistently done in her careers is that

I want to do it in my way.

And I think when you approach life with that sort of authenticity and you, you know, try

to just focus on you and your interests and what you like and, you know, stick to that,

like amazing things can happen.

And I just wish that more of us would do that.

I mean, it would be great if society wouldn't, you know, continually shame us into, you

know, not being passionate about the things that we love, but it's much easier for us to,

you know, make change within ourselves to say, I'm not going to care what society thinks

versus trying to, like, you know, I mean, in the long run, we should change society.

But, you know, that's a longer conversation.

But it's interesting you also bring that up because it's, they started playing by their

own rules.

And that's when their success catapulted, we want to talk about numbers.

You have Beyonce when she said, when she stopped chasing, and I don't, and this is my

assumption, when it, when she stopped making music for the record label and for the general

public and for the radio and they top 40, that's when she started selling out stadiums.

When Taylor was writing for herself and she said, you know what, I'm going to keep writing

new music under Taylor's version.

That's when I used to be like, I've gone to multiple Taylor shows at this point.

Laura is aware and so our listeners, but I remember for like the third show for reputation,

I bought them night of night of floor seats, $125 because no, it was, the demand was there,

but she was doing it on her own accord.

You have Sabrina Carpenter, who has been on the scene for over 10 years.

She is catapulted doing it her own way.

I feel like that continues to happen and you talk about like the, the hearts and the glitter

and the cats.

There was so much backlash with even Taylor's most recent album, The Life of a Showgirl.

People eventually came around, but there's always this whiplash effect that you don't

always see, but at the same time, numbers don't lie.

That's still her most, that's I think most recently announced her most successful album

to date.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, suspiciously like wonder whether there's like, I don't know, some like,

lonely man's apartment building in the middle of somewhere where there's just like two or

three sad guys who are angry at the world and they start like spreading the hate on some

of this stuff and it's not really like a larger actual phenomenon.

It's just that they're so loud.

Yeah, but and think about Miley Cyrus, like what is the song that, you know, she became like,

I don't remember the name of the song, but she became super famous for it.

She won an award for it and I remember I watched that award show and she was like, I finally

won and it's the song that she wrote about her breakup with flowers.

Oh, flowers.

Yes.

And that was, I think her being authentic, you know, she was like trying to work through

feelings, but like, that's another example where, you know, that's one of her most successful,

I would argue songs and it's one that and she won an award for it and she went up on stage

and she's like, finally, and she's, you know, I had to get this, I had to get this divorce

in this breakup and I had to just write for me and she's like, finally, and so there's a lot

to be said about this idea of being authentically yourself and just telling everybody else to, you know,

go find something else to do, I don't know.

You could quote, you could quote Alyssa Lewis, you know what she said?

That's how you fucking do it.

Yeah, that's it.

Yep, and quote, and quote, something that I am very interested in is as you were collecting

all of this information, organizing your book and setting it down into draft and everything,

when you were looking at these numbers, was there anything that really stuck out to you that

was unexpected or that surprised you in any of these trends?

You're like, huh, that, that is, that is not what I expected.

Or wow, we're more powerful than we thought.

I think the thing that may be surprised me, it's not necessarily numbers, but it's a story.

So I read a lot of books in doing my research for this, for Swifty Nomics, and a lot of

books about women from the past. And I got so much inspiration from them, much more than I was

ever expecting to. But I read this book about Frances Perkins, who's the first female secretary

of labor for the United States during like the 1930s. And if you were to hear her story without

knowing that she lived 100 years ago and not today, you would think that she was a woman of

today. Like, she was sandwiched, she was caring for her elder mom and her teenage daughter while

she was working as Secretary of State and DC. And she had a spouse who had mental health issues

that she was also caring for. And you know, she just had all of these really like bombastic

leadership positions. And she was really strategic and really determined. And you know, you read about

her story and you're like, this is a woman from 100 years ago. And you know, because we are not

good at documenting and telling the lived stories of women, you know, that surprises, or at least

I was surprised. And I think that that her story would surprise like not her professional story,

but like her actual life story, which is the combination of professional and personal.

I think people would just be surprised at how much she just seems like a woman of today. And

you know, that's one of the things for me is I wish we were better at documenting,

you know, women's real lived experiences. Because I think if we were better at that,

we'd probably be a little bit further on in terms of gender equity today than we are.

Just because, you know, those stories fall to the wayside and then we forget about them.

And then we have to start over in terms of building ourselves up and fighting for equality.

So that would be like my most surprising piece for researching this book was just

all of the fascinating stories of all the women who have come before us.

Well, and isn't that the truth? We need to recognize love shine a light on all of the women in our past

because my gosh, fight they did and fight we still are. And even though

things may sound a little bit better, may look a little bit better in 2026, it is a wild time out here.

We're not loving 2026. It is a very special time. And it is causing a lot of uncertainty for a

lot of people, but something that always kind of stay steady is numbers. Numbers don't lie. Numbers

ground us. And so we can look to numbers to kind of see where things are going to take us. And I

turn to you as an economist and say, you know, things are just kind of crazy. And is there anything

that you take comfort in when you're looking at numbers? Is there something that really grounds

you so you don't just kind of like spiral into, oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm a firm believer in

economic agency. And I one thing that I think has been maybe inspiring or hopeful is if we look at

labor force participation of women with children under the age of five, it climbed post-pandemic

and it's actually still higher than it was pre-pandemic. It's the highest that it's probably

ever been. And there's lots of reasons why that could be. But I think that that's inspiring

because that means that the more women who have are generating income coming into

their pockets themselves, the less of a hit they have on their future earnings, et cetera, et cetera.

And so that makes me hopeful. And then I actually have a little bit of a twisted way to think

about all of the current chaos. I think, you know, I see what's going on in our environment in 2025

and now in 2026. And I feel like there's a lot of showism going on at the national level. There's

a lot of like, you know, chest pounding broism and DC and a lot of really loud hot air talk.

And I think part of that is a reaction. And I think that it's a reaction. And you know, all of the

attacks on reproductive rights and everything. I think for me, those are really reactions coming from

a small group of folks who traditionally have had the most amount of power in society.

And they are feeling threatened. One of the reasons why they're feeling threatened is because

of this shift in economic power that's going on with women and men. And so I look at all of the

questionable and kind of negative stuff happening right now as maybe, you know, in some way a

positive light because it means that things are changing and it's making people uncomfortable

and they're reacting to it. And I believe that it's more at the end of the day, it's going to be

more hot air than anything else. You know, if there's one thing we can learn from watching the women

from the generations before us, it's that we never really go back. We might have a short setback

in the short term, but we make sure the next generation has more opportunities than we do.

So the example that I'd like to use is the Rosie the Riveter women from World War II, you know,

they went into these factories and built bombs for World War II when the men were off at war in

Europe. And they, the federal government created universal child care so that all women could,

you know, as many women as possible could go and work in the factories and their kids will be taking

care of. When the war ended, a lot of those women, it was expected that they would go back into

their homes and just continue taking care of their kids and their family and their household.

But the fact of the matter is they got a taste of what it was like to, you know, have money coming

directly into their pocket and having control over that. And the really rate of labor force

participation for women after that accelerated even though women were expected to go back home.

And even the women who did go back home, like they might have stopped working in the short run

because, you know, society expectations, family expectations, whatever, but they made sure that

their daughters got an education and a good education where they could go and get careers instead

of jobs or whatever it is. And so there's always going to be short run setbacks. That's just I think

part of growth. And I think we're going through some growing pains right now. But I'm hopeful that

it's not actually a reverse trend going in a different direction. I think we're just having to

deal with people who are uncomfortable because their position in the world is they're having to share

it now and they don't want to men. So it's always men to wrap every our conversations on a lighter

note because we're ending with hope. And we are asking you, what do you remember your first

experience in contributing to the economy as a woman? Do you remember that first moment of

girlhood and kind of sharing like this is an experience that sticks with me? Oh, that's

really fantastic question. Two things come to mind. The first one is all of the babysitting gigs I

had as a teenager. And I used to babysit for one of my mom's friends every new year's eve.

She would go out and I would babysit till like 1 a.m. and I just remember that because I was so tired.

And I would watch like the ball drop from their you know living room all by myself because

kids were sleeping. But after that it would be the first job that I had was at a pizza parlor.

And they had like an ice cream soda fountain thing and I worked at the ice cream soda fountain.

I was like 15 at the time. But you know those are all formal paid jobs ways of interacting with

the economy. And your own source of that economic freedom. Yeah. Oh that's wonderful. Yeah thank

you and thank you so much for I just like sit and listen to you talk and I get to because I

get to you know you have your you have your swifty nomics book available both in traditional

cardboard or I'm sorry physical copy ebook and on you know available through audio as well.

Yes all three format. Well thank you so much for taking the time. Now you mentioned a website.

Is there anything that you would like to promote? Do you have anything coming up? Where can

everybody find you? Please tell us. Well I'm currently doing a book tour. So you can go to

swifty nomics.com and you can find where you can purchase the book there and you can also find

where I'm at on book tour. Missyheganance.com is another place to find me on Instagram.

LinkedIn. So yeah come find me.

So please make sure you're following. Misty will have all of her information. The show notes

as well and as always please feel free to follow us on Instagram. We're at acafé podcast. We're

also both on TikTok acafé Laura and acafé Jessica. Thanks so much and we'll talk to you all soon. Bye