Stephen Fishbach: The Truth About Reality TV (It’s Real, But Not What You Think) | Ep. 320 with Stephen Fishbach Best Selling Author of Escape!

Steve and I have to laugh, but I don't want to laugh, Stephen.

So I'm excited to have you on today, one, because you're a very fun individual.

And I think fun people make the best guess, because then I can be myself around you.

But Stephen, fish back, I have so many questions because my wife has got me addicted to watching

reality TV.

And every time I watch, I'm like, I need to bring on someone who can answer these questions.

So I think it'd be great to have an understanding around reality TV.

What type of person goes on a reality TV show?

Yeah.

That's a great question.

And I think there's probably, you know, the reality TV that I've been on, which is

jungle reality television, I feel like is its own kind of subgenre of reality TV.

And I will say that I think people would be surprised at the type of people who go

on those shows like Survivor or naked and afraid or alone.

My experience is that the people who go on these shows are not the kind of vapid fame

horrors.

Can I say fame horrors that society cast them on as, you know, the people who go on these

shows are people who are sincerely looking to kind of have some kind of confrontation

with the wilderness.

They're looking to find themselves, you know, they're looking to step outside of their

boring, normal lives, even if they're not boring, you know, I think we think of them

as boring, just like, you know, at a desk, you know, in a routine and do something different

where they're going to like get to the bottom of who they are.

And the fact that that's happening in the context of a reality television show, which is

sort of this ridiculous, you know, disposable cultural product, I think is really fascinating.

And that's actually sort of what my book is about escape, you know, is that these people

are going on to these shows, looking for some kind of like transcendent confrontation

with the jungle.

And they're also, you know, doing the ridiculous obstacle course and they're in a hamster

wheel, you know, running down the beach.

So is it real or is it scripted?

Oh, it's real.

I mean, it's very real.

And of course, you know, again, like the book talks about producers and the way sort

of they nudge you in a certain direction.

I mean, what I think is really interesting about reality producers is that they are taking

people's real lives and turning them into a three-act story, you know, a, a, a powerful

three-act story, a good three-act story like it has to be good or these shows wouldn't

be on the air.

It has to be fulfilling or like they wouldn't be renewed season after season.

So like that's kind of amazing, you know, like you're in this chaotic environment, the

jungle or I guess a real house for a real house person.

And you know, all this chaos is happening around you and like there are these people

whose job it is to like distill that into like a structure story arc.

That's kind of amazing.

Wow.

So they are really, I mean, they have to be storytellers to be able to create a story.

What do you think goes into having, or at least with your experience, I know you're working

experience, your experience on reality TV and talking to other people.

What makes an amazing producer?

Yeah.

I think it is that sense of what is a good scene.

I mean, I interview, of course, when I was on reality TV, I interacted with a lot of

producers.

But you know, there it's sort of, you know, you're sitting across from them in an interview,

you're not like getting into their heads, they're asking, they're getting into your head.

But when I was writing this book, I interviewed a lot of producers and they would talk about

like knowing where a scene starts or a scene ends.

And that was kind of crazy to me because I was thinking, this is my life.

Like I'm interacting with these people, I'm playing this game, but they're thinking

of like even just an interaction at the camp as like, here's the scene, here's where

that opening is, here's the stinger, you know, so they're really viewing it all in the

terms of how can I sort of digest this and turn it into into stories.

It really is like people who are excellent storytellers and want to kind of craft a neat

story out of the chaos of real life.

Talk about a job I never even thought.

Like I want to be a producer of a reality TV show, but that is fascinating.

It sounds like they are really curating things more than what we think.

We think it's like, just things just happen, Stan's like, it's just, it's just reality.

Like we don't know what's going to happen, but they are really curating and thinking

about what should happen or shouldn't.

I'm fascinating with dating shows.

I watched Love Is Blind recently on Netflix and I couldn't help think like, are these

people really in it for this?

But then I also see them on like 10 other dating shows.

And I wonder how much is it, how much of those are like chasing fame versus like the

survivor people who really want to find themselves?

Yeah, I do think you're right that there are a lot of people who go on some of the dating

shows, especially, you know, and some competition reality shows looking for the next show, being

very conscious of how can I make a big enough performance on this show to justify being

on also villains or the traders, you know, and certainly, I think that's happened in

the last few years.

I remember even watching people on Survivor maybe five or six years ago, and I noticed

that they were meaming.

You know, they were doing little actions that were meant to be, you know, gift out and spread

on X in our Facebook.

And I was just, you know, when I first went on, I was not aware of that at all, you know,

the cliche that you sort of forget about the cameras was very true for me.

But I feel like the contestants now are very aware of the cameras and there are many

of them or some of them anyway are really performing.

This reminds me of thinking back to like the first reality show that I remember, I think

had to have been like the real world with MTV.

Yeah.

What was like the first reality show that you watched that even got you thinking about

this could be something or maybe even something that you just stood out in your mind from

before?

Yeah.

I mean, I certainly watched the real world, but of course, I along with fully half of

America at the time watched that first season of Survivor and was just blown away by it.

I was definitely part of those water cooler conversations back when there were water coolers

and offices, back when people went into offices, you know, before, but, you know, I was,

I thought Richard Hatch was incredible, this, you know, amazing villain, you know, I was

rooting for him to win and, you know, I, the culture was outraged at him because he

was, you know, voting out the nice people, but I actually was recruited to be on Survivor.

I was not, I did not apply some, um, I knew someone in casting who messaged me on Facebook

in 2008 and said, Hey, do you want to be on Survivor?

Let's make it happen.

I literally did not know the show was still on the air.

You know, they cast in terms of archetypes and they certainly did that more at the time.

You know, they had the hot alpha male, which obviously I was, no, they had, you know, they

cast their nerd character, you know, they cast their, you know, their beach beauty character

and they had cast their season and they had already had a nerd character where they

decided he wasn't nerdy enough and my friend said, Oh, I know a real nerd.

If you want a real true nerd, I've got the nerd for you and that's why she emailed

me.

Is that why they're like from Yale to Survivor?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, totally.

That was all, you know, part of the storyline.

Um, I, you know, I, I had glad, my glasses were not as thick back then as they are now,

but I still did have glasses, which really distinguished me at least you still got hair

because you could be like, I had hair back then, I know that feeling.

So going back to Survivor, because I remember, so the last time I think I remember Survivor

was when they're in the Philippines, yeah, and great season.

Love that season.

I also just like the Philippines in general, but what is, so you go on to this show?

How weird is it?

Like what's the feeling?

Like you're on the, you're on a show.

It's like life.

There's cameras everywhere, but like things have to happen.

Like what's that experience like?

Yeah.

That's a great question.

Love games.

And I also kind of like immersive experiences, you know, you, you, I remember, I, that's

a really good question.

You know, the first part of it is very kind of structured.

You know, you, you sit at the, this camp, they take you to acclimate for a week while

you do your pre-game press.

You're not allowed to talk.

And then at some point, they let you go and, you know, they're like, okay, games on.

And it's incredible this feeling of freedom.

Like I could go anywhere.

I could literally walk anywhere.

I mean, the Brazilian Highlands, it was the Serrata, I was, but I mean, I mean, like the

Brazilian, you know, outdoors, I could walk anywhere.

I could do anything.

I could talk to anyone.

I could not talk to anyone, you know, who I decide to vote out is entirely based on my

decisions.

And who I decide to vote for at the end is also just, I get to choose.

I mean, just that that freedom within the context of a game was mind boggling to me.

It was truly so exciting, you know, just like literally the sense of like total, you,

you can do anything.

And someone with a camera is going to follow you and it's going to be on television.

I find a lot of reality, I mean, especially like these shows, which I love these shows,

it's like a study of human behavior, you know, it's like, what would humans do?

And it reminds me of like Lord of the Flies, like if you put these people on this island

and, you know, there's no real leadership and this, and then you have something gold at

the end, like what's going to happen to humans?

What do you think, or what did you see at Survivor and then just in general with reality

TV?

Do you find this is like really, are there like anthropologists like studying us or maybe

aliens?

I mean, they should be.

It's it, you know, I mean, I'm assuming the answer is yes, you know, yes, the aliens

are studying us.

And probably watching reality TV, it's got to be a really easy way to study us because

you know, the signals are out there, the TV signals.

So they can just kind of, you know, beam it up, that's got to be pretty straightforward.

What's interesting is how each group does kind of create its own mores, you know, every

group sort of creates its own kind of dynamic of what they value, you know, the other thing

that was interesting I thought was the way that when you have to vote someone out, the

group would always kind of like put all of the blame for the chaos around them on that

one person.

You know, they would always say like, oh, this person is playing too hard, this person

is backstabbing, this person is lying, and then you vote them out and you get to feel

good about yourself for a day, you know, like we got rid of the troublemaker, but then

of course the game is what's forcing you to vote people out and lie in backstab.

So suddenly you have to do it again, you're like, and it was this sense of, we could like

maintain our own sense of like moral integrity by putting all of our sins, you know, it was

like literally like that sort of idea of a sacrificial goat, you know, where like, you

know, you're like putting all the sins on this one person and like voting them out and

like getting to like be feel good about yourself again.

I imagine when something becomes your life, it could be devastating when it's taken

away.

What was the feeling when you got voted off?

Yeah.

I mean, well, I was really, I was really tired and hungry.

So immediately I was like, oh, it's a sleep and eat.

That's nice.

Yeah, it is devastating.

You're right.

And, you know, you really are so immersed in this game and you're so focused on this

prize, you know, for weeks, you know, and there's a long weeks because like literally you've

got nothing to do to distract yourself.

So they're very long weeks.

So you're right.

Like you are, there's like a real trauma that happens when you are voted out.

You know, you kind of set your dreams and your goals on this like one object and then it's

taken for you.

And I have to also say it's also really hard to vote somebody else out because you know

that they, and in many ways, I found that actually harder than voting myself out or

they myself can vote it out because you know what their dreams are.

You know, someone's out there, you know, competing to like give their money to their dad who's

worked his whole life or like they're going to like set up their kids with a college education

fund.

And, you know, you're like, oh, I'm voting you out, taking all your dreams from you, you

know, setting your family back to where they started from, you know, that's really hard.

And like lying to someone to do that, you know, like betraying people.

You know, most of us don't betray people in our day-to-day lives.

And it's actually not a good feeling.

I can't help but laugh because I'm thinking like if I was to go on a show, I just need

to make up an outrageous story, whether it's true or not, maybe not true.

So people will then feel bad to not, maybe that's part of the strategy.

Obviously you were a fan favorite, you know, tens of millions and millions of people

voted you to go back on the survivor.

Did you hesitate like, why do I want to do this again?

Or what was your thought like, maybe this it, maybe this will have a positive

impact on my life?

Yeah, I did.

I mean, honestly, I did not initially want to do it again because I, you know, for that

reason that it was so emotionally challenging to betray people, lie to people.

I was really affected by it my first time and I did not plan to do it again.

The producers called me and said, basically, this is your last chance.

Like if you're going to go again, this is the one uses your opportunity.

And passing up something like that felt, you know, it felt reckless.

Like, you know, this is something, this is a dream that so many thousands of people

have, you know, thousands and thousands of people apply and it's being gifted to me.

So, you know, why not go for that adventure one more time?

And the fact that it was a fan vote made it cool, you know, I kind of thought like, okay,

like, that's cool to be voted in by the fans.

So if that happens and I do get chosen, like, that would be a cool thing to write on my

resume, you know, maybe 15 years from now, someone will be, you know, calling me a fan favorite.

I mean, here we are.

That was literally, yeah, that was 15 years ago, right?

Like you said, that's, or 16 years ago, well, like, first, you know, there was probably,

that one was probably like 10, 10 or 11 years ago, 2015, I think.

And then you wrote the book.

So you obviously, the great thing I love about your story, too, is not only were you like

bachelor of the year, that's so fascinated by that.

Yeah.

But you're also, you leveraged it because I think what happens a lot of times from what I've seen,

just following media for many years and, you know, studying media stuff is a lot of times

these people don't leverage it there on after.

Maybe they just want to try and be an actor, but we know most people will not continue

to be an actor.

You have really capitalized and leveraged it to write multiple books, best selling books,

highly awarded.

You've done many other things.

How did you leverage it in case someone here is going on to a show tomorrow and they need

to know what happens afterward?

Yeah.

Maybe told I always wanted to be a writer first and in many ways, you know, my fear going

on reality television the first time was that I would become reduced to being the reality

TV guy.

And like that would become the whole part of my identity, which it absolutely has.

But, you know, so I, my choice to write a book about reality television and have that

be sort of my debut novel was, I think, strategic, you know, and I think that maybe gets to

your question.

Maybe I was going to write a book of short stories to kind of prove my literary bonafides.

But an agent said to me that that was a really stupid choice that, you know, I should really

more think, you know, what you should write the book about the reality TV show first because

like that's what your audience cares about.

Like that's what the people who know you care about and that's kind of your opportunity

to sort of bridge your existing audience into maybe a more literary audience, you know,

and then kind of hopefully take some of those people with you, you know, hopefully with

my next book comes out and it's not about reality television, you know, I've established

that I can write a good book and hopefully some of the people who were interested in my

thoughts about reality TV will come with me to over there as well.

But you know, I think a lot of it is just always observing, you know, and at least certainly

for a writer, you know, it's always just kind of like paying attention to the unique world

that only you have access to.

And like for me, that was, that was this reality TV world from my time as a contestant,

from my time working for the TV networks.

I've worked for nonfiction producers trade group.

So I've done a lot, I've like seen every aspect of this world and I think for anyone kind

of looking to find what their next step is, I think, you know, it would be just to like

observe the thing that only you know about, hey, I just, I just launched a book myself

like a month and a half ago and I have to say hats off to anyone who has written a book.

It was like years and years.

I thought it was going to come out in like a month after I started writing.

Like two and a half years later, I finally came out.

So people don't understand how, not only how hard the process or how long it takes, but

the process, I wanted to quit and cancel, but the publishers like you signed an agreement,

you have to continue writing this book like you can't stop.

So hats off to you.

I get just how challenging it is in your book or maybe even that not in the book, was there

a really wow story after interviewing these people that you heard that's really stuck

out?

Oh, that's interesting from interviews.

I mean, one story I heard, you know, that does sort of make its way in the book and it's

not a spoiler, but it's sort of, it's just kind of because it's sort of an aside as someone

mentions in the book is from a wilderness show, not not survivor, that where the producer

wanted to film two of their survivalists hunting a beaver because the, it's castorsack

has like vanilla flavoring.

So they thought that would be kind of a cool twist on the survivalist genre, but they

couldn't find a live beaver to hunt anywhere.

So like a PA went and brought a frozen beaver that they then put into a stream so that

you couldn't tell that it was frozen and that, you know, and then shot from a distance,

the hunters kind of like make believe hunting this frozen beaver in the stream.

I don't really stuck with me as sort of a very strange facet of this reality world and

I think captures, you know, some of these shows are a little staged.

You know, it's not all 100% as you may be, as it may be displayed on television.

It reminds me of these real estate shows and I wonder if they're really like selling

the real estate or so really buying the right, I mean, so they're like, I don't, is this

really any like potential commission, I mean, I don't know, are they really, is this

real? I can't tell if some things are real or not real.

So I'm glad you said that.

So now if I see a beaver on show, specifically, yeah.

Well, and there was a big lawsuit where a survivalist alleged that their producer like brought

in like a rattlesnake for them to encounter, you know, like basically the, like, you know,

there's a 10 scene in the show, a different show where there was, you know, they come

on a rattlesnake and like, what do they do?

Like they brought the rattlesnake in a box, you know, and then presumably like shot the

seed and then like, you know, ship the rattlesnake off off again to go, to go, better than

an anaconda, I think.

I guess that's right.

I think, although I don't know, I'm not, I'm just being an anaconda when you were there.

I did see an anaconda.

That's crazy that you ask that.

I did.

There was, I mean, from a long, long distance, I was, there was a time where I saw basically

they, I think they captured or they released, you know, again, like they, they feel like

B-roll footage to include in the show.

B-roll is sort of the little like nature shots that the survivor will have.

And they did, in fact, shoot what I, I actually happened to like witness from a distance

that it being wrangled, I guess.

I would not want to come in contact with that.

I was far away.

There's a guy who just a documentary about living in the Amazon, I forget his name and

the stuff that he, I've watched on his YouTube channel around the things that he asked.

He like, he's lived there for 20 years trying to help him.

Like, I would never want to put myself.

Was there a scary moment besides the anaconda from miles away?

Was there a scary experience that you had?

Yeah.

There was, it was actually, it was very scary, it was also snake-based.

A lot of the scary experiences were, were snake-related.

But there was one time when I was, you know, one of the things I had to do was go to exile

Island, basically, where I was all by myself on this sort of remote sand dune.

You know, there was a producer, but he was far away, and I couldn't even really see him

most of the time.

And it truly felt like I was alone.

And at some point, the producer came down to inform me that one of the most dangerous snakes

in the world, would they just seen one nearby?

And I should stay about close by the fire, and because the snake would probably not come

by the fire.

And I said, you know, maybe, maybe we move me.

Maybe we met a vac, or, you know, fly this person away so that he's not in the terrain

of the most dangerous snake in the world.

And they're like, no, you're probably five.

You're probably going to be five.

And just stay away from any snake.

So I was like, okay, that's great.

So if I make it through the night, I'll be all right.

One time our son bought a snake and tried to like have a snake.

And like we wouldn't find the snake, but I saw like this big box of the cage of a snake

thing.

I'm like, so we made him return the snake the next day.

I'm like, wow, he went, like went rogue and bought a snake.

He went rogue and bought a snake.

And like thought we would know they went like, how would you not know we're going to find

the snake?

So next day, he had to return the snake, but I was bit by a friend snake who had, he had

a snake as a pet when I was younger.

And I had to watch him pythons, I had to watch him feed the snakes.

And it was very disturbing watching him as it would grow.

And like the feeding, then it would have had to be alive.

It was like frozen, then it was alive.

And then it bit me.

And I was like, I don't want to come in contact with snakes.

I'm really wondering to about these reality, like the ones you did, how do you eat?

Like do they teach you survivor skills before you go, like, what if you don't eat?

Then what happened?

I mean, I lost 35 pounds my first season.

So that's what happens.

You know, they sort of provide, I mean, on my first season, we got sort of a sustenance

level of rice and beans, but my group, my tribe did not even get like, you know, much

of that.

I was really having like a spoonful of rice a day.

And it was really tough on my body, which is one of the reasons I didn't want to go back.

But you know, you do get a survivor of school, but the day, you know, you get one, one

day where they kind of show you what the various, you know, plants are that are available, you

know, that kind of thing, you know, usually now that it's all on an island, there's typically

coconuts.

There's typically shellfish.

So there's, there's like food that you can exist on, but not, you know, not fill your

belly.

And I'm going to say, I stopped working out a couple of years ago on a regular basis.

And I have also yet to get my muscle back.

So I can 42 years old.

I don't know what this is hard.

It's hard, Steve.

You know, yeah, it's hard.

I've got frail joints, you know, I'm always getting injured.

It's tough.

Oh my God.

Stephen, like, I'm so afraid.

That's why I don't do anything because I'm like, if I get injured, I'm going to be so

upset.

Like, I don't want to go bungee jump.

It's not worth the risk.

And that's why I'm not on reality TV unless it's like a chess playing reality TV or something.

But I'm just too afraid.

I don't think I can handle it.

But I love escape exclamation mark.

You got to say that you have two versions of the book behind you because I know it's out

in different countries.

Tell me about that.

Yeah.

Um, about the book or about it being out in different countries.

Oh, both.

Okay.

So the book is about a has been mid 40s reality TV contestant who goes back on a jungle

reality show kind of looking to reclaim his past glory, you know, he was the winner.

He was like the alpha guy, his first season out.

And now he's kind of stuck in his numb real life and really wants to recapture that.

And while there he faces off against a reality TV producer, you know, one of these expert

storytellers who's whole job is to turn real life into, you know, a neat little bow.

And, you know, there's this real struggle for who gets to control the story.

So I do try to capture like all the texture of what reality TV is real like, really like,

you know, hopefully, you know, for fans of the genre showing them new aspects of it.

But I think that hopefully this relates or, you know, is moving to people who are even

not reality TV fans because I think it deals with the subject that everyone is going through

right now in our social media dominated age where we are all kind of trying to project

this image of ourselves.

We are all trying to control our own story.

And this question of like, what happens when you lose control of your own story?

I think is really, you know, feels like very dear to all of us.

What's the, what is it like when you, because I've always wanted to write a fiction book,

but about nonfiction experiences I've had or other people?

What is that like when you're writing a fiction book?

It's almost like a fiction nonfiction.

Yeah, I mean, this is fiction.

I will say that this is not based on survivor.

You know, I really did interview producers and contestants from like dozens of other

shows, but I think probably most fiction books have like a healthy, a healthy amount

of like nonfiction, you know, animating them, you know, it's the real texture of your

life.

It's like the thoughts you've had, the experiences you've had, they kind of like bring,

you know, whatever fictional plot to life.

So I feel like it's probably true of all things.

Well, Stephen Fishback, but it's spelled B-A-C-H, Stephen, like, Fishback, but it's

Fishback.com.

Where else can they get the book?

Anywhere, any online retailer, you know, go into your local bookstore, it should be

there.

You know, if it's not asked for it, because then maybe they'll order more copies.

That'd be great.

But yeah, hopefully it's everywhere.

My last question, you went into the bookstore and you saw your book.

What came over you?

That was awesome.

I mean, it was truly, it was cool because I was with my daughter and that was really awesome

for her.

Like, you know, we of course like read a lot, you know, as you know, I read to her all

the time.

So for her to see that like I wrote a book and it was on the shelf in the bookstore where

she buys her books, I think was kind of magical for both of us.

Every time you go through a bookstore because I do this, do you go in there and look for

your book and take a picture?

Oh, yeah.

Of course.

I mean, it's only been out for three weeks.

It's still very new to me.

So I 100% I'm looking for my book and yeah, it's been awesome.

I do the same thing.

Every book, I think my wife's, because my wife and I wrote the book together, but she's

not like, she wasn't that excited to write it.

So for me, every time we walk to a bookstore and I do the same thing, I'm like, hey, do you

have this book and they're like, you know, yes or no, I'm like, you don't have the book?

I think you should order the book.

Yeah.

And they're like, there's demand.

Exactly.

I'm like, you're really passionate about this book.

Yeah, I'm like, I'm very passionate about this book.

I think you should order it.

But I love to escape with an exclamation mark, a not a fiction book with amazingly possibly

nonfiction ish added in there.

I love that.

Steve, this has been great.

You're one of the probably one of the most fun guests I've had.

And it's something I can't stop thinking about reality TV.

It's weird.

And I've been so excited to have you on.

So thank you.

What a great compliment.

Thank you.

This has been the super fun interview.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.

This has been the super fun interview.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.