Stop Exercising to Burn Calories.... | JJ Virgin | DSH #1842

We've got to stop focusing on exercise to burn calories,

so we need to focus on exercise for the metabolic impacts that it has.

If you look at the exercise recommendations,

they go, okay, it's 75 minutes of vigorous or 150 minutes of easy moderate, they call it.

Turns out it's actually not a two to one like that.

It's actually four to 10 to one.

Like, one minute of vigorous, like, say you ran up the stairs,

is worth about 10 minutes of walking.

Okay, guys, JJ Virgin, back on the show.

We're here at A4M.

I know.

We're about to start off.

Yeah, your neck to the woods.

Let's go.

The muscles are out.

Well, this is your neck of the woods.

Yeah, I'm filming here.

You're speaking, but looking good.

What's new since I've seen you?

It's been almost a year now, I think.

Yeah, just working out.

Yeah, I could tell.

Working out, working on a new book.

What's this book about?

Next year, I can't, because it's my book,

so I can do what I want.

It is called the metabolism fix, or store your body's ability to

build muscle and lose fat faster.

And the real premise of it is we have done such a massive disservice

by focusing on losing weight.

And I think the GLP wants to really expose this,

instead of focusing on body composition,

what your weight's made up of, and how to improve that,

and taking more of a muscle first approach to health.

Yeah, because the GLPs are your losing weight,

but also muscle weight, right?

Well, but here's the reality.

It's not the GLP ones.

Any poorly designed diet without exercise,

without protein is going to cause that problem.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You look at any diet with Chloric Restriction,

the difference with the GLP ones is you can actually stay on the diet, right?

With a normal diet, you get too hungry, and you override this.

And so, any poorly designed diet,

you lose too many five to 40% muscle.

Geez.

So Chloric Restriction.

So here's a funny thing.

When I was on Dr. Phil for two years doing

these weight loss challenges, they had a competition

where they divided the group.

We had 13 challengers.

They divided them in half,

and they said whichever group collectively loses the most weight

in this month is going to get to go to Canyon Ranch.

Well, I was bringing a body composition scale in,

so I could see what was going on.

And the night before the weigh-in,

that whole day before the weigh-in,

all they did, the one group that won,

which they won by a half pound overall.

Wow.

So the day before they didn't eat, they didn't drink.

They just walked on the treadmills all day long,

and then the night before,

I mean, this was really strategic and smart,

because we didn't say you couldn't do this.

They turned the showers on to high.

They stuffed towels under the bathroom doors,

and so they just steamed themselves.

They completely dehydrated themselves.

I could see it on the body comp scale,

because that thing looks at total body water,

and I'm like, uh-oh, right?

But I mean, it was, they did like a boxer weigh-in.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So they did a water fast?

Yeah.

Oh, they, and water fast and massive dehydration,

as well, and it worked right.

They didn't, they didn't do a water fast,

because they drank no water either.

Yeah.

So they won by half a pound.

Overall, overall, not each person, overall.

Oh, overall.

So the reality is the other group should have won.

They should have won.

Interesting.

And what was the difference, like,

where they on different diets?

Like, how did that work?

No, there was no,

during that program, Dr. Phil had a book,

and so there was nothing specific.

Like, I was working with each one individually to tweak things.

It was interesting.

The people who didn't do well in that group,

were the vegans who were only doing cardio.

We got the other ones.

No, they did not do well.

They were doing loads of cardio,

and they were doing loads of,

well, think about, if you're a vegan diet,

when you look at food overall,

the most,

it's thermic satiating macronutrients protein.

Protein and animal products is going to come with fat,

although you can get it pretty lean.

Protein and plant products comes with carbs or fat.

There's no isolated protein and plant

that you can eat unless you get a shake or something, right?

And so you might be able to eat egg whites or lobster

or chicken breast over on the animal side and get pretty lean.

But on the plant side,

you're either eating legumes,

nuts, you're getting lots of other calories with it.

So they were eating a high-carb, high-fat diet

as a vegan,

which is an obesogenic formula to gain weight and doing loads of cardio.

So they had the worst results.

Interesting.

Now, I'm sure you've seen this recent protein debate

on social media,

how people are really questioning

how much protein is enough, right?

And I'm sure you've seen some people are saying

you don't need that much.

Well, our bodies are really adaptive.

What's interesting is,

and it really depends on how old you are,

and what else you're doing.

If you are someone who is in your 20s,

and you're doing a lot of resistance training,

you can get away with a lot,

because you're triggering muscle protein

since this, by your hormones.

But as you get older,

and especially when you look at

how few people are actually hitting the parameters

for what we should be doing,

and our parameters suck and they're really low.

So you look at what you really need to do to build muscle as you age.

It's not happening with a small amount of protein.

So you need more protein as you age.

You need more resistance training as you age,

because as we age, left unchecked.

And I don't believe it's happening because you're aging.

I think it's happening because we're sitting,

and we're eating a low protein diet.

Yeah, because you start losing muscle mass as you age.

Right.

Well, you don't have to lose muscle.

So here's the thing.

Starting at around age 30,

because of the shift in hormones.

Prior to that, you're building a lot of muscle through insulin.

But starting at around age 30,

we can lose up to 1% of our muscle mass a year.

It's usually about 3 to 8% per decade.

That's actually not the problematic one.

The problematic issue there is that you're losing twice as much strength

than three times as much power.

That's what really sets you up for the hip fracture,

you know, the fall.

But it's not because you're aging.

It's because you're not doing.

It's because of your lifestyle.

Like I did a Dexascan at 39 and 59, the same.

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Yes.

You didn't lose any muscle mass?

Nope. And lifting the same too.

Because it's not just having muscle,

it's the quality of that muscle.

That's why I'm sure you've heard of grip strength testing.

Yeah.

You say it's really important to have good grip strength.

So I'm working on a protocol right now

for a metabolic score that will combine

body composition with both a squat test

where you just how many times can you go up and down

over a chair in 30 seconds plus a grip strength

to give you a muscle quality score.

Because we don't have any real way to look at that right now.

Like when you look at how we're figuring out

how much skeletal muscle mass we have,

it's all predicted.

And yeah, when you do a bio-impedance scale,

they look at total body water,

they predict fat-free mass.

And then based on that,

they predict that about half of it is muscle.

It's predicted.

Even a dex that can't tell for sure,

you know, what skeletal muscle mass.

There's a test called a D3 creatine that can tell it,

but it's only done in research studies right now.

But the bigger piece of that is,

if you have a bunch of muscle,

and let's say you're just a bigger person over fat,

you've got a bunch of muscle, but it's not strong,

it's not protective.

It's got to be strong.

It's got to be contracting.

Why is grip strength so important?

Because it is the biggest predictor of overall strength.

It's a proxy.

Because people say, oh, my grip strength support,

I'm going to squeeze a tennis ball.

I go, that's not the point of grip strength.

Grip strength is a proxy for how much strength you have overall.

Okay.

And that is related to now,

all-cause mortality, dementia, cardiovascular health,

because when your muscles contract,

they release all of these messengers

that say, hey, lower my blood sugar,

lower my immune system,

or boost my immune system, improve my brain function.

So it's the best proxy we have to indicate it, right?

I used to use those forearm flexors all the time.

I should start using those again.

No, no, no, that's at the point.

It's not how strong your forearms are.

It's that the grip strength is a proxy

for how strong you are overall.

In fact, if you were going to focus on any muscle,

like you're going to say, okay,

I can only pick one, that would be stupid.

But let's say you can only pick one area.

Quad strength, and the size of your quad muscles,

is actually the one that's most correlated with your cognition.

No way.

Yeah, but if you think about it,

think about what would you need the most in life

to get through life?

Would it be grip strength,

or would it be being able to get up the stairs?

We ought to emulate, right?

So legs.

But also when you think about muscles as the place

where you can dispose all the sugar,

they call it the glucose sink.

I call it a sugar sponge.

You don't have a lot of muscles here,

but you've got big quad muscles.

That's a lot of places to put sugar.

That's not going in your visceral adipose tissue, right?

Just start squatting, guys.

Yes.

What's your max on the squat?

So I have, when I was 17, I blew out my knee.

And so, and then I broke my foot.

She's squatting, or just...

No, doing stupid stuff.

I was doing point ballet.

Now, you know how tall I am.

You're tall.

I was doing gymnastics in point ballet.

Like, I don't know why someone didn't say these are not your sports.

Why don't you play basketball, girl?

Could have been in the WMBS.

So, yeah, so I blew up my knee, messed up my hips.

So I've had knee replacement, hip replacement.

So squatting heavies, not my thing.

Got it.

But, like, pressing, you know, pull-ups, push-ups,

and I think that it's better for you to do super functional stuff

well-rounded, right?

That focuses on fast moves, too,

so that you've got both the strength, the power, and the endurance.

A lot of people do get hurt, squat, and deadlift, and...

I love dead lifts, but I like to do single leg,

Romanian dead lifts.

Those are very hard.

So I like doing things like that that really cause you to focus on stability.

Yeah, through rubbing into those.

But, yeah, I actually tore my green doing those stupid single leg dead lifts,

but I'm back up.

It's got to hold the kettlebell while you do it, right?

You got to hold it, you got to balance,

and because I have the broken foot,

you know, I'm like, I can do this.

Yeah.

So...

You might got to get some stem cells in there or something.

I, right now, I'm doing something called Regina kind.

Have you heard of this?

So there is a doctor, I should connect you with this guy.

He's amazing.

So he is in Scottsdale.

He's one of eight doctors in the world that are licensed to use a therapy.

It's the thing that Kobe Bryant and a bunch of other athletes used to fly to Germany to get.

So it's like PRP on steroids.

Yeah, I heard of this.

Yeah, so I've been doing that into my foot,

because literally the thing's just a complete mess.

It's like, you know, what happened?

I was living in Japan, and I was teaching aerobics against my parents' wishes.

I'd taken a little time off of UCLA, and so they disowned me.

And so I'm in Japan teaching aerobics, and I'm doing gymnastics, and I break my foot.

On a Sunday, and they were going to send me home.

So I cut the cast off and held onto a chair and continued to teach,

so that I wouldn't get deported.

So they were going to deport you for that.

Well, because I didn't have, I was in Japan teaching aerobics.

Like if you can't teach.

So I was like, I'm fine.

Wow.

So that probably made it way worse.

Oh, just slightly.

Yeah.

I want to go to Japan one day.

You've been back since those days?

I went twice during that time.

Haven't been back, but we're apparently, I'm part of a group called the Transformation

Leadership Council.

And there's one guy, Ken Honda, who wrote Happy Money, who's this big guru in Japan.

So he's going to bring us all up.

No, I think we've lived it up yesterday.

They're the healthiest country.

It's such a cool.

Like I will tell you, living there.

So I was living in a sorority house at UCLA, and I moved to Japan.

I've got a chauffeur, a bodyguard.

I'm living in this amazing penthouse.

I love the food.

I'm like, this is the greatest thing ever.

Yeah.

And then I had to go back to school and back into this sorority house.

And I'm like, this is all like the socks.

It was great.

I felt more homesick leaving there

than getting there and missing America.

I really missed it.

Yeah, they're clean over there.

Just, I don't know.

Oh my gosh.

Everything's clean.

The food is clean.

People are pretty nice.

You would have for breakfast.

I remember the only problem at the time was you'd get a cup of coffee,

and it was like this big.

I'm like, where's the, where's the pot?

Like this does not work for me.

But, you know, all that.

I came home addicted to sushi and sashimi.

And here I am now back as a college student.

Now, fortunately, it was during the time in L.A.

when all the sushi parlors popped up.

But still, you know, you're like college students don't normally spend like

30 bucks for lunch on sushi every day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So did you make it through college?

I did.

Yes, I did.

I made it through college.

Went immediately into grad school and biomechanics.

Then went over into doctoral school and exercise fees.

And then kind of spiraled out because I found nutrition.

And I've been running around ever since.

It's kind of hard to find one place to get all the information.

That's why A4M's been.

That's why I took it.

Yeah, it's super hard, actually.

Because if you dedicate your life to one thing,

you kind of don't know about other things, right?

Well, and you look at, so what was really wild

being in the exercise science departments is

they didn't talk about nutrition.

And you're like, how can you do all the exercise

piece without the nutrition piece?

So that's why I finally was like, I've got to go learn the nutrition piece.

I actually ran out of classes in exercise science.

But it just seems so stupid to not put classes to.

I think now they do, but this was a long time ago, right?

This was like 30 years ago.

They used to like, they were, they were in completely different parts of campus.

So apparently now like, my buddy runs a physique lab in Florida.

And so he does all the like female bodybuilders.

It's really cool.

So they have the nutrition and fitness together.

Because it makes sense.

Yeah.

I'm like, why wouldn't you?

Yeah, now it's a no brain.

I feel it.

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We need both.

Well, back then as a trainer,

everybody wanted to lose weight.

It was really clear to me very fast that you could not

just lose weight through exercise alone.

Of course, now I look at the song,

by the way in grad school,

we were literally taught to not have someone

lift weights until they lose weight.

Really?

It's so backwards,

which I completely went up,

you know, I did the opposite

because it seems stupid to me.

But yeah, there was no,

like, you didn't exercise to lose weight.

You had to go do the diet and then you did the diet

and then you would go fix it with the exercise.

I was like, well, that's actually a hassle for this

with obese people not to do cardio right away.

Well, with, if I was starting today with someone

who's obese, which is my favorite group to work with,

and I remember way back when there was very hard to find them.

Now it's...

Two out of three.

40% of the population.

Oh, 40%.

It's, well, so obese is 30 pounds or more overweight.

Really, we shouldn't be looking at weight.

We should only be looking at body fat.

But, you know, because sometimes we'll have someone

who's overweight and they're perfect in the body fat

or that they're normal weight and they've got high body fat.

So you really need to look at all of this.

But I think that if we just were starting

and the very first thing you did was optimize for protein.

Most people tend to not overeat as soon as you get their protein in check.

Right? And then you started making sure

they're just removing enough throughout the day.

Then you would add in resistance training,

then start adding in some intervals.

And I don't know if you've seen the research on exercise snacks

on vigorous activity.

This thing just came out.

So one of my contrarian bleats is that we've got to stop

focusing on exercise to burn calories.

That we need to focus on exercise for the metabolic

impacts that it has.

So the study just came out.

Because if you look at the exercise recommendations,

they go, okay, it's 75 minutes of vigorous

or 150 minutes of easy, moderate, they call it.

Turns out it's actually not a two to one like that.

It's actually four to 10 to one.

Like one minute of vigorous, like they ran up the stairs,

is worth about 10 minutes of walking.

Wow.

Yeah.

So if you, after you eat, did 60 seconds of air squats,

that would equal about going out for a walk for 10 minutes.

Air squats.

Air squats.

That's insane.

Yeah.

I mean, what it does, and the amazing thing is,

let's say that you want to go have,

are you drinking orange juice?

This is electrolytes.

Okay.

I was like, I was going to pick on you.

I don't drink fruit juice.

Okay.

Fruit juice is, I was on a TV show,

morning TV show, and I said,

fruit juice is the devil.

And they're like, no, kids are watching.

And orange juice, minute made sponsors.

That's like, I'm so sorry.

There goes that sponsorship.

I'm like, okay, I won't come back.

But let's say that you had a cookie.

If you do air squats, you take that sugar,

you suck it into your muscles.

So now you're getting it out of circulation,

and you're not going to,

then if you've got too many calories,

store it as fat.

So now I'm not saying go eat cookies,

but if you happen to do some air squats.

You mentioned obesity should be more related towards body fat percent.

What body fat percent would you consider obese and overweight?

So here's what's really interesting.

When I was in graduate school,

we spent, or actually this was doctoral school,

we spent a whole semester just on body composition testing.

And the norms we were taught back in the 80s

are totally different than the norms now.

It's like, it's just like the clothes and size I wore back then,

I wear two sizes smaller.

I'm the same.

I'm no different.

Oh, really?

It's because they're making things so that people go,

because a woman says, I'm of size four.

Well, she's not a size four.

She's actually a size eight.

It's just a clothing company.

So they're making everything okay,

just like you look at our lab values,

and they're like, okay, this is okay.

No, it's not.

It's not ideal.

So if I look at body composition,

here's how this works.

You've got, I think you have to go back to the old way we used to look at body size,

where you have that ectomorphic person,

like my husband over there is an ectomorphic person.

He's a super lean guy.

They struggle to put muscle on.

Then you have the mesomorphic person.

I'm more of a mesomorph easy for me to put muscle on.

Then you have the endomorphic.

They're the curvy's, right?

And then within those,

you would have different levels of ideal body fat.

A man has three to five percent essential fat.

That's how much fat he needs to have to survive.

Women are like 10 to 13 percent.

So we already have higher body fat so that we can,

you know, breastfeed, survive a famine,

have kids, all that.

Then you look and go, what type of body do you have?

Where are you best?

Even with that,

a real athletic male will be somewhere in the five to 12 percent,

and depends on the sport.

Swimmers will be higher, right?

More buoyancy.

So swimmers have higher body fat.

Then say a track runner.

So depending on the sport,

but it's usually five to 12 percent.

And then a healthy male is up to 18 percent.

We were taught in graduate school that 21,

22 percent above was like bad.

And then for women,

the athletic woman would be somewhere in the like,

15 to 22 percent.

And then somewhere in the 18 to 22 or 25 percent

was healthy up to 27 percent.

But now you look at and they go,

oh, ideal is to 32 percent.

I was like, no, it's not.

She was ideal.

That's not ideal.

That's not ideal.

It's not ideal.

It's I think we're just trying to make these things okay

as everyone's becoming moral beasts.

And that's not helping anybody.

But also, we're not really looking either, right?

I mean, it's like.

Yeah, people just hop on a scale and think that's something.

I was going to the doctor to get some PRP and my elbow

and they were putting me on the scale.

And I go, I'm just curious.

Like you're putting me on a scale for PRP and my elbow.

For what reason?

And what are you doing with that information?

Like you've done nothing with this.

Why am I getting weighed?

Yeah.

And for what?

And if you put someone on a scale,

that didn't tell you anything.

Like my husband,

when we went to do our dexas at 59,

he was 25 percent body fat.

As an athletic male, he's now 10 percent.

Wow.

But he didn't know this because he was getting on a regular scale.

Once he saw what that weight was made up of,

it's like, oh, okay.

Needed to do some testosterone.

Added in up to his weight training game.

Up to like all the stuff I was telling him to do.

He finally did it, right?

But I mean, big shift.

But he would not have known that based on his clothes,

like he lost two inches in his waist.

But you know, these things creep up and you go,

I've been the same weight I've always been.

Well, you might be the same weight,

but you're not the same body composition.

So we got to be looking at this all the way along,

just like we need to be looking at muscle quality.

Because even if you're the same weight

in the same body composition,

your muscles might not be as strong as they used to be.

How do you measure muscle quality?

Pit grip strength is a great one.

So I think there's three things that can be super helpful.

Grip strength is such an easy one.

You can buy a $30 little grip dynamometer.

I've seen those tests.

People walk around with them.

Yeah, and you know, it's cool about it.

So you can tell, you know, we've always looked at,

how do you know if you're overtraining?

The reality is, most people are under training.

So I think we worry too much about overtraining,

just like we worry too much about cortisol.

But with grip strength,

if your grip strength is decreasing as you are training,

you probably need to take a little break.

If your grip strength between one hand and the other

is 10% or more difference,

it's a sign of early cognitive decline.

So there's some really cool stuff

that we could be doing with this.

But if you put grip strength together with squats,

with push-ups, and I love push-ups

because then you're really testing core too,

and you're also testing your stamina, your endurance.

Because you're going to see how many push-ups

you can do in good form.

What do you think people should,

like the average person should be able to do push-up-wise?

I think for a woman, if she can do 12 to 15,

that's fantastic.

Guys, I would say at least 25.

Most guys cannot do 25.

Really? You're kidding.

I doubt it.

25.

I doubt it.

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Amazing.

Yeah, I don't think so.

We'd have to test it, but I'm pretty sure.

How many do you?

Obviously, I was being kind, but I'm like,

make them do some push ups right now.

My best was like 50-someone.

What about that?

There was that woman who did like a thousand or something

insane, and then people were attacking her for her form.

I'm like, she has a thousand push ups,

so you need to shut it.

Yeah.

What about pull ups?

Most guys can't do pull ups.

So he can do pull ups.

So pull ups are one of the things

that I think we should all be doing

because you do a pull up

and then the very end just hang,

right?

And that's going to improve that grip strength too.

So just like another great functional exercises

to do farmer's carries.

And I really like the luggage carry

where it's like you do one really heavy hand

because that's more typical of life.

Yeah.

You're at the airport hoisting things around.

I recall a luggage crossfit at the airport

because we jack our suitcases up to 70 pounds each.

We literally travel like this time we traveled with.

We always travel with coffee maker red lights,

all the stuff.

You bring your coffee maker with us?

We bring our coffee maker with us.

Well, especially here,

here we actually even ordered a refrigerator

and we had Instacart delivery.

Wow.

Well, we're hard.

I starved to death in Las Vegas.

It's a star?

It's hard to eat here.

I mean, because you'll go out to dinner, right?

Yeah, I mean, dinner's fine.

Dinner's, but breakfast,

you know, I don't want to go,

I don't want to go wait for 30 minutes at a restaurant

and lunch is impossible.

So we just have a refrigerator in the room.

Instacart it.

I do find it hard to eat healthy while I travel.

Whether it's Vegas or just.

That's why we do.

Anywhere we go, we travel with our coffee maker.

If we can't do that, we have

purity coffee makes these sacred cups little instance

that are actually amazing.

And then these coffee tea bags that are incredible.

Yeah.

It's microplastics in the tea bag.

They're very, they're very anal about other stuff.

But they're little like instant coffee sounds

disgusting. These are amazing.

So travel with those.

They travel with the coffee maker.

Because I'm a big baby.

Baby coffee, huh?

Really baby about my coffee.

And then everywhere we go, we just order Instacart

and put it in the fridge.

Good whole Instacart.

Yeah.

Yeah, you could get sprouts on there.

I don't know if Whole Foods is on there,

but I think Whole Foods is pathetic.

Really?

Yeah. Look at their hot bar.

Their hot bar is like a seed oil extravagant stuff.

I don't eat that hot bar there.

I mean, it just, if I can go to sprouts,

I'm going to sprouts.

First of all, it's like half the price of Whole Foods

and has better options.

They got fours in nature there.

They got some good brands at sprouts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You got to know what you're looking for though.

I feel like grocery stores are tough to navigate.

Well, especially if you think you're going to a healthy place.

I mean, this is the thing you'll go to something like Whole Foods

and you think you're going to a healthy place

and it's got seed oil, it's got canola oil

and all these things.

And then they've got agate.

Same with Trader Joe's.

You know?

Trader Joe's is even worse.

Yeah.

Well, you rent some labels there.

Yes.

Oh my gosh.

Because I was trying to do a thing with Trader Joe's to show it.

Oh, sorry.

I don't want to ruin your deal.

No, no, no, no.

I wasn't trying to do a thing with them.

I was trying to do a thing where I could show people

all prepared foods that you could buy at Trader Joe's.

And I'm like, it's hard, right?

You really can't.

I went through the whole store.

I found like three things.

Yeah.

But they have great produce there.

Is it organic though?

Oh yeah, they have great, like they have the best selection

of mushrooms, like I'm an obsessed mushroom person.

Love them.

For brain health, they're just taste wise.

I just love them.

I think they're just great taste wise, but immune health.

Yeah.

So no, I'm obsessed with mushrooms

and they have all the different types

and they're hard to find.

Yeah, but you go through the frozen aisle there.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, very sad.

I know.

Well, JJ, other than the book, what's next for you?

Where can people keep up with you?

Oh, you know, been over here at A4M

chairing their business, their practice business.

It's called profitable practice blueprint.

So all their business training for their practitioners,

which is super cool.

And then everything out there about metabolism and muscle.

So everything jjbergen.com.

Check her out, guys.

Thanks for coming back on.

Good to see you again.

Thanks for having me.

Yep, see you guys.

I hope you guys are enjoying the show.

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Thank you.