Strength With Heart: Redefining Masculinity and Compassion | Daniel Ellenberg – EP 725

coming up next on passion struck if the only way that you can matter in a way is to prove your

masculinity that's a very ineffective and vulnerable way of living and ironically that trying to

hide vulnerabilities by proving masculinity but it's ultimately and ironically the most exposed

you can potentially be because improving masculinity can always be disproved right at the moment

and a lot of guys live like that. Welcome to passion struck. I'm your host John Miles.

This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live

like it matters. Each week I sit down with change makers, creators, scientists, and everyday heroes

to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning.

Heal what hurts and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether

you're designing your future, developing as a leader or seeking deeper alignment in your life,

this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention because the secret

to a life of deep purpose, connection, and impact is choosing to live like you matter.

Hey friends and welcome back to episode 725 of passion struck. Earlier this week we opened

the U-Matter Series with renowned psychologist Barry Schwartz and explored how modern choice

cultures reshapes agency, judgment, and regret, often leaving people exhausted rather than empowered.

Today we continue that inquiry by turning to another force that reshapes

mattering in modern life, the inherited scripts about what it means to be strong,

worthy, and seen, significance forms through our choices and through the voices and hearts

that are allowed to be fully human within the systems we inhabit. This conversation sits at

the center of the U-Matter Series, an exploration of how people experience significance in a world

organized around performance, proof, and rigid roles. As we move toward the February 24th

launch of my upcoming children's book, U-Matter Luma, I've been reflecting on how early we learn

the rules of visibility, who gets to feel pain without shame, who gets to ask for help,

who is believed when they show doubt, and whose worth is allowed to exist without constant

proofing. Those lessons follow us from playgrounds into friendships, families, leadership,

and institutions. My guest today is Daniel Ellenberg, a licensed psychologist,

leadership coach, and a pioneer in men's relationships and emotional development,

with over four decades facilitating more than 10,000 hours of men's groups and workshops.

He's the founder and director of Strength with Hearts Men's Groups, co-founder of relationships

that work, an organization dedicated to emotionally intelligent personal relationships,

and a principal in the Rewire Leadership Institute. Daniel's work examines how traditional masculinity

demands constant performance of strength, how it armors boys against vulnerability from a very

young age, and how that mirror quietly erodes connection, purpose, and the felt sense of

his insights explain why so many capable, caring men find themselves isolated,

even when they long for deeper brotherhood. In this episode, we explore how early conditioning

teaches boys to armor against vulnerability, and why that blocks authentic matter. We go into

the crisis of connection among men, loneliness, suicide rights, and the myth of stoic self-reliance.

We discuss why proving masculinity is precarious and ultimately disconnecting.

We uncover the power of strength with heart, integrating backbone with openness,

courage with compassion, and then go into what it takes to stop performing and start showing

up fully in relationships, parenting, and leadership. This is a conversation about discernment,

and about restoring full humanity inside cultural scripts that quietly train us to doubt our own

tenderness. Let's continue the UMatter series with Daniel Ellenberg. Thank you for choosing

PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional

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I am absolutely thrilled today to have Dr. Daniel Ellenberg join us on PassionStruck. Welcome,

Daniel. How are you doing? I'm good. Good to be with you, John.

Well, we've been talking about doing this for months, so I'm so glad we're finally able to do

this discussion, and we're going to dive deep today into the concept of strength with heart.

Daniel, your work spans psychology, leadership, and men's emotional development,

but before we get into frameworks and other things like that, what moment first made you realize that

the traditional model of masculinity was failing men? Probably when I was a teenager,

because I was very aware, then, as somebody who was fairly athletic, but not a star,

in a way, I was always like in the mix, but not on top of the pile in a way. It was just

aware of hierarchy and proving masculine, proving how tough you were, and proving how competent,

on top of things you were, and that there was just this way that I would have side conversations

with guys who were saying, yeah, I feel some insecure, because I was always somebody who would

be curious, and be going to ask the questions that most people wouldn't ask, and people would say

things to me on the side, but it would never really come out in a larger format, and I could see some

of the deleterious impact of having to keep everything close to the chest, that in any way involves

one's doubts, one's insecurities, and one of the things I've noticed as I got older and

wound up becoming a psychologist is that it's hard being human. I knew that then, but it's very

hard being human, and it's baked into the human system that there are threats, and we're not

to look that far to see people feel threatened quite often, and then what do you do with threats?

Unmitigated threats will automatically trigger defensive reactions, and I actually think that's

part of the biggest difficulties that people have is a tendency to get defensive, or not being

able to listen, and being able to have to push and improve something, and so I've just seen that

in terms of the male side of things is thinking about having to prove, I have to get my fingers

in the race, bring it, prove masculinity is really a big problem, and I'd like to live in the world,

if people don't have to prove that you matter, I know that for you, John,

mattering significance is just a core part of your orientation, which to me is

hugely important, which is why I'm interested in you and your work, and if the only way that you

can matter in a way is to prove your masculinity, that's a very ineffective and vulnerable way

of living, and ironically, that trying to hide vulnerabilities by proving masculinity, but it's

ultimately and ironically, the most exposed you can potentially be, because in proving masculinity,

it can always be disproved at a moment, and a lot of guys live like that. Just one last thing,

and I'll jump into other things, there's a very well-accepted theory in male gender,

which is called a precarious manhood, that's a two-floor professors who, we want to

come up with this theory, very simply, it was pretty obvious in a way, but it's basically that

guys grow up learning that they have to prove their masculinity, and that proving masculinity is

difficult to kill, and if you have done it, supposedly it's easy to lose, and there must be done

in public. So there's something about that, these public displays of masculinity that are a big

part of the difficult, you don't have to look at it for in the world and see how much of our world

is predicated on, guys trying to prove how tough they are, how strong they are, and it's like

great. I think it is important to be resilient and strong, I'm not doubting that in the least,

if that's the way that you want that mattering, it will be so life of disconnection.

Well, when do you think, since we're talking about mattering, when do you think that men or boys

start internalizing this false sense of who they need to be to feel accepted by the world around

them? As a very emotional person, John, I feel sad to see them thinking about it, frankly, because

it's early, right? Probably like three, four, if you look at early childhood development,

little boys are at least as emotionally reactive as little girls, meaning that they cry

probably more often than little girls that they want to be held, they want to be nurtured,

that more I can act. And then they start learning these messages from the culture that it's

just not very male. You don't need mommy. You know, be independent, it's going to get pushed toward

premature independence, and they're, I get shamed for showing a little bit like crying,

big boys don't cry. These messages are so powerful, and little kids on the playground

who are just already doing this thing. I'm a big boy, I don't need this, I don't know, and because

when they show that, if you really looked at how people learn, they learn to avoid pain, that's

pain, they get shunned or shamed in some way, and to gain pleasure, it's more important to avoid

pain than gain pleasure, as it turns out. So we're talking about super early, and that's what happens

with looking at male relationships, they want to be super connected, they hold their friends,

and they're told that it's gay, that hold your boy, you want to love your friends and things,

it's crazy. And so we see the crisis of connection really beginning three, four years old, and you

can see these boys, Naomi Wei has written about this, there's a lot of research, Judy Chu, there's

a lot of research out here about how these boys really become armored, defended, again, more

vulnerable feelings, and the problem is that it is through vulnerability, it's through our

humaneness, that we are able to connect with other people, and by saying, I'm not like that,

I don't feel fear, I don't feel sadness, it's basically like, I don't feel,

you don't feel those things, you don't feel, but I feel anger, because anger is a preferred and

acceptable male emotion, preventive novel, but it is what leads us to feel isolated,

and we can go a lot into the statistics about what's happening with boys and men, but it's an

ugly picture of what's emerging out there, and it's very sad and it's preventable.

Yeah, so a few weeks ago, I had Dr. Zach Seidler from November,

who I know you, you know, and personally on the show, and one of the most startling statistics

he brought up, since we were talking about men's isolation is that from what he shared,

and you shared with me one out of seven men today have no close friends, no single best friend,

and that to me is extremely alarming. Do you think that number is potentially understated?

Yes, I do. I mean, so when I hear one out of seven, I think that's wrong, frankly, I,

and again, John, we really have to clarify what exactly a close friend means,

like what somebody may call a close friend or somebody who they go drinking with,

so I don't have that in my definition as a close friend, I have a close friend or somebody

who you can be intimate with, and I don't mean intimate in a sense like that sexuality.

I think of intimacy as the phonetic of like into me seek, so that you actually allow other people,

in this case, other guys, to see into you beauty, warts, and all, and so it is through that I

have difficulties, I may have a divorce potentially, I may lose a job, life is challenging,

and everyone has difficulties, and we start looking underneath the surface,

people suffer, people can be joyous, all of this, I'm not, I don't want to paint a picture like

everyone's just suffering and pain all the time, but pain is a part of life, and if you have to

hide that all the time, that's a problem, and this is part of it leads guys into drug addiction

and the fentanyl crisis, which hits men much more than women, but I don't know what the statistics

are, but it's pretty significant to give me emails, can you suicide for four times a rate,

as females, and so I don't think one out of seven is accurate, there, and again, it's

definitional, what is a close friend? Yeah, I had what I consider two close friends who ended up

taking their own lives, and I had been with them both days before the act happened, and the one

gentleman, Tim, was this type of person, he was the guy who you'd call it two o'clock in the

morning, three o'clock in the morning, eight o'clock in the morning, it didn't matter, he was always

there for you, you could tell him anything, he wasn't judgmental, he was just a good, a really good

friend, and what was really hard for me in that scenario is when he was hurting the most, he didn't

bring it up to me, nor any of our other friends, and felt that jumping off the equivalent of

the Golden Gate Bridge here in Tampa was the way to deal with it, and then I had another really

good friend, Vincent, who was a former NFL player, Pro Ball wide receiver, who I met with days

before he took his own life, and he was telling me a little bit that he was having issues

with his wife, but he didn't tell me that he was experiencing CTE and was having all kinds of

ramifications. How do we get men to open up more? Because these are two scenarios where I think

in both cases, there was help that could have been given to these gentlemen, had they just

asked for it, but they never did. Well, first of all, I'm sorry, I didn't know that, John,

so I'm sorry to hear that because that's got to be incredibly painful for you, and what a hopeless

or helpless feeling must have had afterward, I had to feel like it was so close, why didn't you

talk, have I? Like you said, that's exactly the relation and pain of that is difficult, because I

I've not lost any friends to suicide, but I have friends who have, so I've had conversations

about that, it's just a storm off, that's tough stuff. In terms of how to deal with it, this part of

the early childhood condition, don't tell people, don't reveal that you're hurting. Keep it to yourself,

be stoic, my ex-elicism is fine, by the way, sometimes it's misunderstood in these days, but if

it's only to yourself not showing anything and withholding all that, that's a major problem,

but I do think that in terms of how do we deal with this, it starts early in life, and it starts

with really that we give men a latitude to have an emotional life, because absurdity you'd be

talking like this, like you need that, but I think that's true, they're giving them, it's fine

to be somebody who has difficulties in life, and that a healthy approach to dealing with

difficulties is compassion, and compassion is not something that has been seen as a particularly

male trait, there's an area I've looked at quite a lot, and self-compassion forget about it, like really,

you're hurting, you buck up, grow a pair, man up, all these lessons that guys learn,

teach them to not speak about when they're really hurting like that, so you can imagine that your

friends had this, like your first friend who was very open to hearing from you or other people

about when you were in difficulty, but not so much for him, he had it going side the equation,

which is he knew for him was fine that other people could be hurting and he would be a good ear,

before them a good ear and a good heart, but not him, like somehow he's left out of that dance,

and why is that, you know, what did he learn? I don't know the guy obviously, I don't know his

father was like, but he probably got these messages in his family, in his school, his church,

about the instrument, tough, stoic, and it takes residence, I have a term called psychosmosis,

you know, how we learn, how we absorb through the permeable membranes out of the brain these

messages, you know, the culture and once inside they take a residence and they become part of our

character or characteristics, and so as much as some part of them in one of which I was like, John,

I'm hurting, I need to talk, I mean, it's like, can you get me out? I was like, this is stopgap

there, and this is part of the pain, I mean, far away I did for 40 years as I led weekly men's groups,

where guys would come in and they would really talk about their lives, beauty works and all,

so we weren't just looking at what's wrong, it's like for people to credit for their accomplishments

and their goodness and their decency, yes, honor what's beautiful in you, and also to deal with and

be open and transparent with where you're difficult, which goes against some cultural messages,

and so the cultural messages are really powerful, frankly, I'm 72 years old, and I've been at this

sort of looking at the men's stuff, 47 years ago, and a long time ago I thought things would be

very different right now than they are, which is a virus that seems to have a very persistent

afterlife. Before we continue, I want to pause for a moment, conversations like this often surface

a quiet realization. Cultural script shape how we matter, but heart determines how we connect.

Inside the Ignited Life, our sub-stack, each episode in the U-Matter series,

is paired with guided reflection prompts designed to help you reclaim authenticity

without rejecting strength or surrendering your voice. This week's prompts focus on

noticing where man up has replaced openness, identifying when performance has crowded out

presence, and clarifying how you show and receive mattering in your closest relationships.

You can explore them all at the Ignited Life.net. As we move toward February 24th,

I want to share something very close to my heart. My new children's book U-Matter Luma launches

that day, a story designed to help children understand intrinsic worth before the world teaches them

to measure themselves by toughness or proof. You can now preorder U-Matter Luma at Barnes and

Noble. Your support helps bring this message of mattering to the next generation.

Now a quick break from our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show.

You're listening to Passion Struck on the Passion Struck Network. Now back to my conversation

with Daniel Ellinberg. I just want to quantify Daniel something that you just said,

and because you said you have facilitated men's groups for four decades,

and when I think about that's well over 10,000 hours. That's a lot of time.

From you observing these different men that you've interacted with,

when do you find men finally stop performing? Because I think a lot of us are wearing a mask

and start telling the truth. Great question. We look for others to show up

in a different way. What would happen in groups is that guys would come in and they'd be watching.

Like, what are the rules? What can I say? Am I going to get tossed out if I show something?

And you know that some part of them is there because they want to connect.

There's no question that connecting is a cool motivation for being there.

And then they'll watch somebody who's been in the group,

say, express something that's quite vulnerable and get supported and acknowledged for that.

And you're watching this and going, wow, the rules here are different.

I grew up with, if you show something like that, just pipe down, cut it off, keep it in.

But actually here, the principles and the rules are different. And so they feel like they're on

a different planet in a certain way and observing it. And they see that when that somebody

is vulnerable and has a courage to open their emotional component of service geek,

that they're acknowledged for that and they're good on you and that they

leads toward a deeper connection. And that they have a sense of brotherhood and familiarity

there that it's incentivizing to do that and it builds over time. And it also leads to

people being able to call each other. I don't like calling out, but I like the kind of calling in.

I like saying, dude, you're like being really reactive and extensible. It's really going on here.

And to me, that's part of the deal because on some level, we get back to mattering that when

somebody is willing to, in a heartful way, be able to call someone out and say, I'm doing this

because I care, not because I'm trying to shame you. That's very powerful. And it's saying to the

other person, you matter. And I'm doing this because you matter. For someone as I was thinking about

John Wooden, the famous UCLA basketball coaches, Keynes One, 10 national championships in 12 years.

And one of the things he said about a really good coach is a coach is someone who can give

criticism without causing resentment. And in which I like, we need feedback. I know that

the defended and reactive person I was, not that I don't have any defenses of reactivity and certain

still to, but who I was, I wouldn't be who I am without my brothers. And literally over the years,

I've had people call me in and say, Dan, come on, you're better than that.

I'm feeling very emotional right now, I think because in some way, I'm suffering from just

observing what's going on in our country and the world. And it's just, it's not the love

fest that I dream of. And I want men to be better. And it scares me really when I see some

the young men who are going into the dark reaches of the internet and the atmosphere and learning

these that somehow you have to control women and being charged to be dominant. This is not a world

of relationship at all like that. And I'm really concerned about that right. So this is part of my

journey right now is not leading men's groups anymore. They're actually being more involved

with trying to make a larger world difference. On that front, you've written a lot about

transcending limited aspects of traditional male roles. And when I think of some of your contemporaries

who are out there talking about this a lot, I immediately think Scott Galloway and Jonathan Hate,

what do you think they're getting right? And then what parts of masculinity do you think are

misunderstood beyond what they're talking about? Or do you think they have it all covered?

Well, let's take Scott Galloway for starters. I respect him. I don't know him personally.

I have a great deal of respect for him. I think he's a straight shooter. And I think he's got a

lot of things right. And he said that a lot of important messages. I'm not convinced about

what guys need to do is provide protectant procreate, which is a core message of his. I do believe in

providing and protecting. And I certainly procreate it. We're not going to have a species if we don't

do that. But I think that there are others things that have to that are I would accent more the

courage to be vulnerable. I think he is quite vulnerable himself and willing to be courageous. So

I don't think there's anything that I would say that he would necessarily disagree with. But I

think I might accent something more than others. In terms of Richard Reeves, I was wrote,

become a household name for a lot of people these days. And I think that what he's doing is great.

He's not a clinician, a therapist, a coach. He needs a researcher, which is great. But he's

actually made the case that is really important to make about how guys are suffering. And we can

walk into double gun at the same time by helping boys and men when I'm hurting girls and women.

And this is the area that drives me frankly the craziest, this binary thinking. And I'm very frustrated

by it. And why is it all this pushback about having services for boys and men these days? It's

bizarre to me. And I think part of it has to do with a kind of binary thinking that if you're doing

this for this, you're hurting this. It's like really, if we're going to rise, we're going to rise

together. And I think part of the problem is as I think about this little cartoon I saw years ago,

these two guys here around a little, a little dingy. And there's two holes in the back of the

boat. They're on the front of the boat. They're on a vine of water. And one of them says to the other,

thank God we're in the front of the boat. Well, hello, then I'm going to help you. You may get

a couple more minutes out of this, but that's not going to help. And that's part of my concern.

And I'm part of what I'm becoming increasingly interested in is really how we bring men and women

together. I'm excited about all the work that's going on with men and boys and work that's going

on with girls and women. I'm not seeing men and women coming together and having the important

conversations. There's still this kind of adversarial relationship. And there are a lot of women

who they don't trust men. I have for many good reasons. I'm not saying that men have been

do a lovely toward women quite the contrary. And I'm not trying to put all men into one category.

But there's a lot of resistance from a good amount of women about getting services for boys and men.

And I'm really keen to be as being involved with the Northern Psychological Association and

some of the things that are going on politically. Why is there this resistance? Because I do

think that there's a suspicion that when men get together, they're plotting against women.

Now, that may be true for some men. I'm not doubting that. Men, some of these guys who are just

hate women, haters and they just want to dominate women and like what Victor went is and your body,

my choice. Let's sec completely. But we really, I can pay too much attention to these extreme voices

on the left or right and not enough to all the people who want more collegiality and cooperation

and compassion. And because they don't, the algorithms don't follow them. They're not as outrageous.

That's good. Most of us want goodness into what we want positive relationships. We want love,

we want safety, we want security. We don't want to hurt other people. But there are these extremes

that get too much of the attention. And then everyone tends to think a lot of people and

then well, that must be the way it is. But it's really not the way it is.

Back during Mother's Day, we have recently moved to a new area in Tampa Bay. So I was

out shopping for new churches trying to feel for one that best fit me. And I happened to go to

this service on Mother's Day. And it was a really interesting talk that the pastor did.

He welcomed all the families with kids one to three up on stage and they did a great ceremony.

But then his message was completely directed at men in the room. And the room was overflowing

this day. And he basically gave this message that we are outsourcing the role that we are supposed

to be playing. Not only from a spiritual sense, but from a parenting sense, from a partner's sense.

And he said it's like we think we're properly doing parental involvement when we drop our kids off

to Sunday school but then don't reinforce it any other day of the week. We do the same thing

in our relationships where we think we're being a good husband or a good partner, but we're not

showing up and playing our role. And we're creating a vacuum. Do you agree at all with what he

has to say? Yes, but we say at all, I'd say yes. I think it's also important and this may be

rather controversial from what I'm going to say but it's good. I think that there are a lot of

women who don't want men to play more of a role. That a lot of women do want men to play more of a

role. But I think it's important also to recognize that there is a certain level of dominion that

a lot of women have held in the heart and the home of being with the children that they relish

and they may not trust their husband or other men around the children on some level, but they're

not necessarily supportive of that. There are a lot of women who are. Again, I'm not a big broad

breaststroke person. I don't put all women in one category, all men. People are different

ways. I do think a lot of men do grow up in general not learning about how to nurture,

how to be there with their children in a way. And it's just not steeped in the land of

relationship. And that's part of I think what this pastor was speaking about. And I agree with

that. I think that is the problem. I don't know. I just need to, on some of it, get some basic

education around how do you be a good father? How do you be a good man? And how do you actually show

up for other people in a heartful and also a decisive way you meant to grow up in my work with

Strenford Heart? And part of the difficulty I see in general in the world is that we teach to split

these things all off like, you eat a strong or you're kind. It's insane. Somehow,

if you're strong, but you show care that makes you weaker, really? Yeah. I don't think so,

at all. But this is part of the difficulties that we're seeing in general that I see that some

of it's changing and some of it has to do with when athletes will come out and will show a tender

side of themselves. And I do think that there's a lot of ways that guys in general can be and are

compassionate that isn't recognized as that. I was remembering in the Olympics when the

the gymnast team, one of the guys, I think they were five with them, one of them who is considered

like the best. The horse, I think it was, and he fell off of it. And he was devastated. He's

a little bit of a hit between the legs. And one of his teammates came up to him and they showed

this and he put his arm around him. I just thought that was a beautiful moment of a shown compassion.

Not all the time, even football player, somebody goes down every one's there, a kicker misses a

field goal when the place will be put on around him. Well, even recently when John Harbaugh was

let go by the Ravens, there have been a lot of reports that just so many of the superstars on

the team came into his office crying. Oh, I haven't heard that. Yes, showing the support that they

had for him. So it's really powerful for me to see the symbolism of those types of acts,

because you don't see it very often these days. I don't know if you've ever seen it that often,

but I think you're seeing it more of these days. And that's where I get heartened when I see

guys being able to show that side of themselves, which is really important. And I think that,

I don't know everything that this pastor said to go back to that for a moment, but I think it's

I think it's a powerful message he was giving. Really, I just wouldn't want it to be a shaming

message. And I don't know how we get it in a way, because you can call guys out in a way that

shaming and calling them in a way that's supportive. I think what he was trying to say and a little

bit of it was shaming the way he preached, but I think what he was trying to say, you can't

yourself ever feel like you're going to matter if you're absentee in making any of the loved ones

around you feel like they matter. And if you're absent being a husband, if you're absent,

being the parent that your kids need, if you're absent being the spiritual head of the household,

then what example are you setting by being an absentee person? And I know for me personally,

that this was a difficult element when I became a parent, because my father had a very difficult

upbringing. And my grandfather, who I never met, was physically abusive to my father. He was a very

bad drunk and I think never showed my father how to parent. And so when I was growing up and it was

much better for my younger brother, but for me, many of the years, he was an absent parent. And he used

to travel 233, 240 days a year during most of my upbringing. And I realized as my son was one,

two, three years old, I was starting to follow into some of his patterns. And it was very difficult

for me to not only realize it, but to correct it because we tend to gravitate towards the examples

we're given. And I didn't want to be that type of parent, but it was very difficult to change that

path. I'm so happy I have because both my kids are so much better as a result of it, but I think

that's what that pastor was trying to say. Okay, that's totally fair. I'm curious, how did you notice

that you were starting to follow in the footsteps of your father in a way that didn't feel right?

I think part of it was just in the emotions and the way that my son would show disappointment

toward me. And you could see it in subtle ways where he was pulling more and more away. I think

if anyone isn't a parent and they have dogs, but you probably see it in your pets when they come up

to you and they want to be loved upon and you don't give them the attention that they want.

They put their head between their tail and the way because you're not giving them the attention.

I think kids give you the same type of subtle or not so subtle signals. And I just remember it

hitting me and I had to be really mindful about what it became a completely different paradigm

shift for me. If I want my son to grow up to be the man that I hope he becomes, then the person

he's looking at to learn that from is me. So I need to be the example of what he sees and what I want

him to become somewhere down the line. And then it also becomes a conversation with their mother

about the roles that we're going to be we're going to be playing. Meaning it can't always be the

father who's the disciplinarian. Both of them have to play those roles or the child will never come

to the person who's always doing the punishing and be vulnerable with them. So it took some give

and take on all sides. Well, I think it says something about you as a person and as a man that you

were in touch enough with your emotions to be able to recognize that. I can imagine

pretty sure you can have how many guys they're so conditioned to be hard and harsh and like

just buck up kid and just close their hearts to their children in this case to their son

that it wouldn't penetrate them in a way that would lead toward an attitudinal and behavioral

change. And so for you, that wasn't the case. So there was something either in your nature or

something that allowed you to see that and to respond to that. Yeah, and I'm not ever going to say

I was a perfect parent and I had a very demanding career and there were times where

that took too much precedence especially as I got more senior and I look back and there are

definitely regrets I have especially as my kids were getting older and I was getting more senior

that I'd like to have some doovers but I think that's why we're best positioned to try to help

the people we once were. So that's a big part of my message that I try to give out is I just did

a solo episode that we stop building an architecture of success and start building an architecture

of significance and that really starts with the connections that are closest to your heart.

I don't know if you've ever come across the work of Dr. Stephen Post but he has this book called

Pure Unlimited Love and I happen to talk to him and then I talk to Mark Canipo and we both were

talking about this topic of love and they both gave the same definition of what unlimited love

really is and that is when you are about to close your eyes for the last time who are the people

that you want to look at at that one last moment that you have and that's really a moment of

unlimited love but I don't think we approach love in our lives with that intentionality so to speak.

No but one thing if I may know here what I'm going to is that when I acknowledged you

about that you saw that you responded to that you were very quick to say well I could have been

better and I was I wasn't perfect it wasn't I like that I don't know how much you actually

took in that you did do a lot and I'm saying that because I just see all the time with people

is just a kind of much more of a focus on what you didn't do than what you did in a way and I

think that it's important to take in the good right in this case and no one's perfect people screw

up I have no belief in the word perfect at all I think it's a terrible word and I think people hold

themselves to absurd standards in a way and we all mess up the thing that really is most important

in terms of parenting is when you mess up as a parent if you acknowledge it that working as a

psychologist for as many decades as I do you tell you that the thing that drives people really

up the wall is when the parent never admitted they were wrong never apologized never said I yelled

at you because actually I felt threatened at work I was just totally stressed out and I took it

out and I'm really sorry about that but that's the kind of stuff that with people feeling that

wasn't fair but they also think like it's because of me that you are suffering and they take

it on the children taking on in a way that it's all their fault and I'm a believer in just

taking responsibility for okay you screw up I know you do that so I'm sure you're not in that camp

that I'm talking about at all but it's also the importance of zix's knowledge and that yes there's

goodness and I was a much better father than my father was right and take that in yes because I

do think this whole topic we're talking about masculinity is a generational and the gap is widening

because as I guess masculinity starts to fade generationally the gap keeps getting bigger and bigger

and so that's why I think in a lot of ways it's becoming harder to close and it's so interesting

to me to see the disconnection that men are also having from pursuing education

purpose and community and what happens psychologically when men lose viable pathways to meaning

great question nothing good

that's for sure if you think about some of the prime drivers of life purpose meaning is

way up there in there and this part of the problem with a lot of young guys is that they don't

have a sense of purpose or meaning what's the point I mean look out in the world and this is

really the first time in American history for sure where the next generation has less prospects

than the one before and maybe the one before that so it's always been oh well my child and my

child are going to have it easier than I had it well now it's actually quite not like that

but it's a kid you have a college degree and there's no guarantee of anything and if you don't

have a college degree as a guy or the prospects are awful I have a colleague who is researching

men who don't have college degrees and it's a pretty bleak situation and reality is that women

most people are heterosexual women are looking for guys who are awkwardly mobile

on some level who actually can create resources and it's not going to just fall on them or

they want support and understandably and if the possibilities are not out there to be successful

it's a bad thing this is part of what's leading to this malaise and this manosphere type stuff

in the fentanyl overdoses and this death of despair and suicide and all that kind of stuff it's

it's a crisis and meaning a crisis of purpose there and so I don't know really what the way out is

certainly there's got to be more kind of social support and I'm not thrilled with some of the

attitudes in the United States around everyone's got to pull themselves up by the bootstrap and

like we shouldn't have social support for no not at all but I do think that it's all in

a particular education there's just not a lot of enough focus on how do you create a life of

meaning do you remember John when you were in elementary school middle school or high school and I

think yeah let's have a course on how to create a sense of purpose and meaning in life

yeah a children's version of start with why like exactly and so what it if I were to be able to

pick it do it let's throw all the cards down the ground and pick up the deck in a way that's

quite different than it is I make a lot of changes of education is one of those major areas where

we're not educating people well enough because if you think about education as preparation

for living or falling and good and decent life we're not doing a good job and certainly that's

the case with guys who are just not oriented to school we're not getting really go off I know

we don't have time for this today but there's there are so many problems with how with schools

and education I think about it in terms of the etymology there's a one one part of education

so it's a edicare which is to put in from without it's important knowledge to and that's generally

what we see in our educational systems and then put this into you and sometimes it

where as an answer you're going to be fine with that but the other part is edicare which is to

draw out from within we don't do that at all that's like completely absent from education and

how do you help people bring out what is within them there's a Paul the Apostle was quoted in

the pre-nose if this is true or not there was like if you bring forth what is within you what you

bring forth will save you if you do not bring forth what is within you what you do not bring forth

will destroy you and I think that's really part of powerful words yes I think you know the

powerful words they are they aren't and I think about even the sense of mattering or purpose

it like people have within them this creative impulse always girl just it's it wants to create

and we can look in the world and a lot of things incredible things have been created by human beings

and the question about that but I think each individual has something that wants to come out and

wants to flourish wants to thrive and needs the proper environment to nurture and help vitalize

that which wants to come forth and I don't think we're doing a very good job at creating those

types of containers and context for that and I think that we need to really have more groups

more education around how do you actually nurture and support your own creative impulses

yeah I yeah I think that's a good line of thinking Daniel because what I think about all the time

is when men don't feel that they're needed and they don't know that they matter they don't get

that reciprocity felt back to them then they replace it with all kinds of things that are causing

them to to feel numb and apathetic and unseen and I think that's one of the biggest

contagions that we're dealing with in the world right now 100% exactly as you put it

well why do you think these some I want to talk about social media and types of people that

men are gravitating towards for these people who have lost that gap why do these simplistic

online identities that focus on like the hyper dominance grievance contempt feel so appealing

to these men who are struggling it's certain it's it's it's certainty this is what you do this is

how you do it these guys come across as hyper confident never in doubt never wrong they know

it's going on and they don't tell you exactly what you need to do and just put on your big boy pants

and just go out and do it and you'll be a confident secure successful man on the one hand that

you guys want to be confident secure and successful that's appealing but certainty is absurd and

we always have to deal with ambiguity and complexity and the challenges that

you're not really sure what to do at a certain point to acknowledge you're not sure right it doesn't

mean you're insecure or that you're weak it means that you're actually seeing that there are so

many circumstances that are you're just not sure about so if you can actually start to learn and

listen to yourself more and go inward and feel what feels right a kind of intuition there that

is something that is only generated from within the obviously you're going to be taking

in ever resources and you want to talk to other people and listen to open to feedback right because

that's part of how we populate our inner world is through the outer world and begin with that

ongoing dynamic between inner and outer these guys on the internet are just telling you just

do this and you've got have become and that's appealing and wouldn't that be nice if we're that

simple just do A B and C and everything will be fine but it turns out that it's not

know what is it though you said for every complex problem there's a solution that's simple

neat and wrong and that's part of the difficulty is that we're living in an increasingly complex

world and people know what to do it's freaking scary but it's destabilizing and we're living in

an increasingly destabilized and destabilizing world and simple solutions there are lovely ideas

and just be tough be strong we're going to go back to that there's something that's appealing

about that and women want much more from them and now than they used to and we're going to be

for buying a protector or creator as many times in history and that work maybe that's the way

we're fine because that's where we're going from our evolutionary history but that's not what we

are right now yeah it's a very different world and it's a very confusing world and I think

that we need to really be much more focused on how to develop self-knowledge or self's knowledge

as it were because of different aspects of ourselves and be able to draw on that inner world

and to be able to have groups of people who you can actually talk with and explore with and

when you think about that I see it will so differently now than I used to and not because I've

come up with great insights myself some perhaps but most of it's been to the learning from other

people and being open you know to that I know that for you in your podcast and in your work

you're teaching people you're giving people opportunities to learn more about themselves and

to really find a way to create a life of mattering because you come to realize and I don't

agree with you on this that if people don't believe that they matter nothing else matters all right

well I started to look at so many of what I'm now calling the symptoms that we're naming in society

the loneliness epidemic people feeling burned out people feeling hopeless whatever it is

all of those when I started to look at it they all connect back to the feeling of antimatter

yeah and that's why these things are happening so so that's why this is so important to me

because you've got to fix the human operating system to get this back in place because it's

we're systematically from the time our kids enter school to how social media operates today to

how the workforce operates we're systematically taking bits of mattering away from people

over the course of years and it's like dystemia you don't realize that you're depressed because

it's happening so gradually that over time you reach a hockey stick where before you know it

you're experiencing severe depression but it's happened over such a long period of time same

thing with burnout that when it finally hits you you don't realize all the micro moments that

have occurred that lead up to it and that's exactly what I think is happening the frog doesn't

realize it's being boiled yeah exactly and so I agree with you completely if you think about

mattering you want to talk a little bit about this and I know you spoke with my wife about it

it's really the territory of significance of significance and mattering are basically the same

and when you think about early childhood development that little being comes into the world

a couple of roster of nothings what yeah we're gonna run a little bit I don't know what

this can't like really orient and so and they have to learn some how that date matter

they matter enough that people care about them they're giving them their resources they're

attending to them they when you kick comes up and grab you by the don't bother me now I'm doing

work right that's a statement that you don't matter but I'm giving is more important you're not

important because underneath mattering significance is something you're important like you you deserve

to exist and so many people they go through their entire lives and they feel like they I'm

deserve to be here yes and it's like how do you show people that they matter and part of my

always concerns because ignore other people just don't walk past and don't acknowledge don't like

it's like it's a sad state of affairs but again it really has to do with you did part of the

problem where you're part of the solution and to be someone who gets out there and says you know

I'm going to show other people that they matter right I'm going to be a kind of person who

acknowledges other people and holds them to certain standards and tries to acknowledge that they

at a minimum deserve to exist that they're not someone just to ignore or disregard or just

shine or push off to the side but it's about how do we expand to include other people rather

than how do we contract to exclude them couldn't agree more well I want to before we have to end

I want to talk about strength with heart a little bit because I know this is an air and dear to

your heart and I'm going to bring Mark Nippo up again because in my interview with him we were

exploring his new book the fifth season but I we've probably spent a good 10 minutes of him talking

about why he feels that the most critical thing we need to do and what life has told him

is we need to live with an open heart which I thought tied directly into a lot of your message

and I know that you really challenged the false binary that men must choose between strength and

compassion why do you think that framing is so damaging and what does real strength look like

when it's fully integrated with heart you leave the small questions for the last ones right

like we built up to this nice great well I'm gonna get political for a second probably with some

level of camaraderie but I can't help myself so I think about politically how on the left side

of famous which it seems like I'm on the right as I'm looking at this it's like guys are

being told that the strength is bad what's associated with power over in dominance and so the best

thing guys can be is not an asshole you know and be an ally to women and just be nice kind of

think because it's seen as like the male side of power is always leads to a domination and just

tamp it down and I see this in more liberal corners I'm not a fan of that mentality and then on the

right side it's just be strongly tough there's nothing wrong with you you're perfectly fine and

just they're just shaming you on the left and there is some shaming up on the left so I'm not

doubting that but I don't think that the answer either there needs to be some integration

of strength and heart where you're actually your backbone it doesn't mean by the way that if

you're heartful you know that somehow you are a pushover or that you always give people what

they want or that you always are a lackey in some kind of way it means that you are you have a

sense of direction purpose right I do leadership work and so I don't think a good leader is someone

who just rubber stamps with somebody else thinks and feels at all not in the least you have to have

a sense of your north star and where you want to go and how do you lead in a way where you're

supporting people to step up on the one hand and go for what feels right and be open to feedback

and so I think that if you're strong and heartful you're you have a sense of direction you have

a sense of purpose you have a sense of inner strength and you're flexible enough to know that

you can shift your opinions if the facts change I think about kings of the economists you say

I believe in changing my opinion when the facts change what do you do sir

because a lot because some people have this idea of that strength is that you just hold your guns

no matter what the reality is it's you do in a complex world you don't have enough information

over time at all and so something else comes in and you're flexible enough and you're fluid enough

to be able to shift with that new information there's an old saying that the bamboo is

stronger than the oak that the bamboo it maintains its integrity but it can move with when

circumstances change I have a lot of oaks on my problem oaks are lovely and everything but they're

tight right they don't move and I think a lot of guys learn that strength is being immovable

but that's not I don't think that's true I think that the strongest people are people who can

have it the center they have a sense of their own core they have a belief in themselves

and they're willing to shift when someone has given them a different way of orienting where they go

you know what I was seeing it this way but that actually makes sense you know because they're

actually in touch with a more emotional part of themselves and I think that guys who are only

tight they're pushovers in a way they're very reactive they're ready to fight

they're ready to hold it round in a way but what are they actually holding they're really holding

on to their egos and the ego is very fragile self with the capital S is much stronger and that is

something that is not predicated on being right and always being in control but actually is really

seeing the bigger picture and there's really a part of life of not trying to stand out as

Mr. Dominance you know there that actually is able to be fluid and we see psychological

flexibility whether you're being able to be shifting it doesn't mean not having a center it doesn't

mean being pushed over it means being open open the feedback and that's part of what creates

relationship that kind of openness where okay I feel you and I can I'm going to shift based on

what you're saying and how I'm experiencing you and so I know that by work with men when I look

at the center of the farm always you can add your grounds very important that you have your ground

and there are ways of really working with that that allow you to become a more expanded and really

a more powerful and clear person by being open Daniel I thought I would tell you after I put

some thought to it what strength means to me because I think it coincides with many of the things

that you just said to me strength without heart equals control and heart without strength equals

collapse so when I think about strength with heart it equals regulated power and service of connection

it it means boundaries and compassion agency and vulnerability and leadership that stabilizes

instead of trying to dominate that's on that I'm gonna have to get this I really like that we put that

John yeah because I think what you said about opens strength with heart is the ability to stay open

without becoming unprotected in in many ways what if there were nothing to defend yes exactly

which is not to say that there aren't things to defend I'm not saying that having defenses is

bad or wrong it's appropriate at times but I think a lot of times people go through lives always

being defended right and so there's this whole territory of safety versus threat friend or foe

you're always in foe this is a foe it could be a potential foe this is a potential threat and so

there armor all the time and when you armor all the time there's no flow there's really

ultimately no connection now I'm going to be doing a whole nine month course on strength with heart

for guys coming up at the end of the year and we're really focused on all the different we have

nine different guide posts strength with heart which are nothing that you should do but the

things that if you live by these particular ways of orienting life tends to go better I see a

lot of guys who are strong and heartful but I don't think on a larger cultural level it exists

up there part of my own sense of mission is how do we actually change the paradigm of guys because

the paradigms are really what's most important in terms of our maps and our lenses in terms of

seeing an apprehend in the world and we really need something new and different because we're at a

point on this planet where I think we're either going to destroy ourselves or we're going to

reorganize at a higher level of complexity the jury's out right now and hopefully with your work

John and putting your work in the world and what I'm doing a lot of other people are doing

art and you can go on and on there are a lot of people who see the need for this new paradigm

that we need to birth this new paradigm in order to at a minimum survive but certainly to thrive

Daniel I have two last questions for you for a man who's stayed with us this far in the conversation

listening who recognizes himself in the strength at all cost model what's one small non-threatening

shift that can begin real change for him find someone and talk about your how you feel strong in

yourself and how you doubt yourself be more open take more risks we tend to see courage courage

is actually one of the strength of heart diposts tend to see courage as the willingness to run into

a burning building which it is courage I'm not doubting that but there's a courage that I don't

think people tend to think about which I call interpersonal courage which is the willingness

to be to share beauty works and all about yourself it's openly as possible with at least one

other person ideally in groups but certainly one of the persons part of why people go to therapy

go into counseling or coaching in some way that they can disclose to others and the turns out

that willingness to disclose to others is actually part of what leads people to develop more

self-awareness and self-awareness is deeply connected to leadership and positive relationships

and it's actually one of our guidebooks also is awareness or noticing and so I would say go out

take some interpersonal risks and have the belief in yourself that even if it doesn't go well

you're going to survive this is it's not a survival issue for you but you need to do this in order

to bring your insight into the world and the way you bring your insights into the world is through

relationships with other people so that's one thing I would say and I think another is that

the willingness to look into yourself and to recognize that you have strengths also I think part

of the reason why I was saying when I said to you earlier about hey that's cool that you

essentially way big to be a good father in that regard and when you're saying well it wasn't perfect

back kind of thing I wanted you and this isn't like this is commons I'm not trying to call you

out at all from this is to say yes I do have strengths and I have done good things I think a lot

of times people are just so miserably with themselves around just acknowledging what is what's

cool about them and what's good you know so if this is not about taking some self inventory about

all the horrible things and everything like that it's not what we're talking about it we're talking

about being a measure about this and being judicious and being in the sense that this is

these are positive things about me these are not so positive things about me what can I do

to make a difference and it turns out that one of the best things you can do is to be

in relationships with other people in a very in an open and transparent way but finding the right

people to do that with and sometimes you trust someone and you're wrong but that's the courage part

you know and you go like how do I learn from this and have a course program that didn't work

but don't give up I've seen so many people I'm sure I talked to somebody once and he changed me

I'm never going to do it again come on seriously you're going to give up that easily no don't do that

don't do that stand up for yourself and stand in yourself and just go I'm going to keep pushing

forward no matter what and not don't give up thank you for that Daniel and I had this last question

if you had the opportunity to redefine masculinity in a single sentence for the next generation of

boys what would you want them to know about strength heart and who they're allowed to be

I would want them to be more interested in being a whole and integrated person than to be seen as

masculine I don't it's interesting this wouldn't masculine something I've done to kind of

imagine how much time I've spent thinking about this about toxic masculinity or healthy masculine

masculinity I hear it all the time and as a part of me it goes I wish we didn't even have the word

I got wish that weren't even that didn't even exist like guys didn't have to prove something

about masculinity about there your mask but whatever that means it's fine the part of the difficulty

is that there are words that are considered to be or traits that can be masculine independent

tough strong take note these are masculine traits feminine traits are nurturing and kind and

compassionate and being able to list and so that's part of the problem is that we call these traits

masculine or feminine and I don't think that's healthy I think that really what I want to see

is a world where women can have the same all those traits they can be aggressive they can be

confident they can be things are seen as masculine men can be nurturing and kind and compassionate

and to think and be in a way their ways are seen as feminine and so I would want to really

deconstruct it from the beginning and question is it you're trying to be masculine I know from

I feel male whatever that means I don't feel I'm a guy I've always been very guy-ish whatever that

means in a certain way I like sports I think women like sports too right so I don't I think

that we limit ourselves by trying to fit ourselves into these little boxes that are called masculine

or feminine or this or that and so I want to I'm going to defend a world where people can be

more expansive so I mean that answers your question in a way that you were looking for but that's

how I was seeing oh Daniel I'd love to have you here today for people who want to learn more about

what we've been talking about where are the best places for them to learn more about you and your work

well you could write strengthwithheart.com and there's also for my leadership work there's

rewireleadership.com and my email is picotanielatrewireleadership.com and we will be having some

different workshops coming out around this for guys but I will tell you some part of it my

newer inspiration is to really bring men and women together and have more meaningful conversations

because I am heartened by all the work that's going on with boys and men these days

I'm starting to feel like it's a crowded field in a way which is great but I'm what is a very

uncrowded field is it's really bringing men and women together and I think we really need to be

doing that more part of my kind of newer thinking and I have a partner who was actually one of the

founders of men living which is a great organization for men it's really about bringing men and

women together to have these meaningful conversations which I think we need to do now the other

thing is I'll send you information if you do contact me at the free conference we have coming up June

12 which is called young guys thrive which is going to be focused on how do we help young guys thrive

and not just get by and really look at the challenges and the opportunities for young guys these days

because they're the future right and we're going to have a paradigm shift you think I'd be

farther big time so I'm hoping that in my old age I can help inspire them to aspire to be

better and to be strong and heartful men as you are John and I want to just acknowledge you

for the work you're doing and the heart and the strength that you show in doing this because I

know it's not easy all the time but to keep doing this and doing this work and to be putting out

your good work in the world it's good for you so thank you for being you and doing the work you

are doing in the world thank you so much Daniel it was such an honor to have you today and I hope

you have a wonderful weekend ahead of you thank you that brings us to the close of today's

conversation with Daniel Ellen Burke if this episode stayed with you it's likely because it

touched something familiar navigating a world that demands proof of strength while quietly wondering

where your full humanity fits here are three reflections you might carry forward first strength

without heart equals control heart without strength equals collapse real power lives in their

integration regulated open and in service of connection second mattering is signaled through

vulnerability the people and cultures around us communicate significance through whose pain is

allowed to be seen and who's ashamed into silence and third authenticity restores agency

presence returns the moment we stop performing and start showing up beauty warts doubts and all

in the relationships that matter most Daniel said it plainly if the only way that you can

matter is to prove your masculinity that's ultimately the most exposed you can be today is an

invitation to lay that proof down if this conversation stirred something in you maybe a memory of

a friend who never asks for help or a moment you held back your own pain share this episode with

one man in your life who might need to hear it a brother a son a colleague or even yourself

sometimes the simplest act of mattering is saying I see you and I'm here to continue the work

visit the ignitedlife.net for episode reflections watch the full conversations on youtube at

john our miles or passion struck clips and explore intention driven apparel at start mattering.com

and our next episode we go even deeper into that instinct with philosopher Rebecca newberg

Goldstein and her new book the mattering instinct exploring why the longing to matter maybe

is fundamental to being human as reason itself we are so different by temperament belief systems value

systems culture or talents our passions and that individuality all goes into how we respond to

the shared motivation that we have deep motivation that shapes our lives and we none of us

want to waste our life we want to respond in the right way to this instinct and we all make

the distinction that there are right ways and wrong ways and we want to in appeasing this longing

and answering the question do I really matter that motivates all this until then remember you matter

not because of what you prove but because of who you already are your heart counts your full

self belongs and the people who need your real presence most are waiting for exactly that I'm john

miles and you've been passion struck