Tables Are Turned | EP 7 | Season 3

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, body bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morian on America's number one podcast network. I Heart. Open your free I Heart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morian and start listening. I believe that whoever was in that room and did that was a murderer. A new podcast series, Fault Line Haditha, tells the story of a shocking crime and a cover-up at the highest levels of the United States Marine Corps. If you've got five players and you offer immunity to four, you better be right about the fifth because if you're not, then you've just given immunity to your color. Listen to Fault Line Haditha on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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2:20In October of 2023, Cindy and Kenny finally got their day in court. In that civil trial, they fought for damages and to clear Kenny's name. The children aren't lying. I believe that the father coach these children and convince these children that these events actually happened to them. During that trial, new allegations against Cindy and Kenny would come to light. Did you ever drug either of the boys? Did you ever shoot a dog in front of the children? Did you ever put hot needles in the boys? That wasn't somebody being facetious. After years without contact, Kenny and Cindy faced new almost fantastical accusations of child abuse. The boys are saying that me and Cindy both beat him with a golf club.

3:22I broke his arm with a tire tire. I shot a dog in front of them and buried it. We were taking hot needles and stabbing them in the backs. We were making them eat out of the garbage. It was horrible. I mean, they just kept on going and going and elevating it to a whole new level. This is a great example of how children can be so thoroughly manipulated. To say flat out lies. I'm Nancy Glass and this is season three of Burden of Guilt. Episode seven, tables are turned. In the summer of 2020, the District Attorney's Office dropped all child abuse charges against Kenny Ham. A year later, the Department of Human Services overturned their abuse charges against

4:26Kenny and Cindy. That's when they came up with a plan to fight back in a language Cindy's ex husband Steve would understand money. I'm going to go after Steve on a civil lawsuit because he did this to me forever harmed me in my life. You know, I had this fear of going back to steamboat for two years. I couldn't even stay the night in that town because I literally just start shaking before driving into it because I felt like my life was in danger in that town. And he's going to be I helped responsible for it. Chris Decker was Kenny's lawyer. As a criminal defense attorney when I saw this case, it was remarkable. This was a false narrative created by Steve and Christine in order to achieve an agenda of custody and retaliation. The crux of their suit was that Steve and his wife Christine fabricated these allegations of child abuse. To lead a child to believe they have been sexually abused

5:33when they haven't been. It's shock. It is profoundly abusive. There's no way I can wrap my brain around someone doing this to their own child. They believe that ever since Cindy and Steve divorced, Steve had been trying to take away her three children. Steve was using every opportunity to try to leverage his position to get full custody. Kenny was a fall guy and he presented the perfect opportunity for Steve to launch this narrative, this false dialogue of sexual abuse. By the time this case went to trial in 2023, Steve and the children had relocated from Colorado to Hawaii. You simply cannot get any farther away from the mother in continental United States than Hawaii. By then, Cindy's role as a mother was painfully nonexistent. It had been more than four years since she had any normal parenting time with her children for long years.

6:39As for Kenny, he was still dealing with the shame and the embarrassment of the charges against him. What these two people went through is phenomenal. I mean, it makes me want to cry. And now they were about to embark on a week's long civil trial that would reveal the stunning lengths people would go to in order to get what they wanted. This trial would do what all other investigations had not done. It would shift the focus back to Steve and his wife Christine. Any decent human being is appalled by sexual abuse or physical abuse of a child. We all want to protect children and believe children. In the end, I think that's what Steve knew also. He knew that if he could turn this into allegations of sexual abuse, everyone would just believe it. And that's what happened initially.

7:46And it took years of hard litigation and fighting in order to put together all the facts which showed this manipulation. To Chris, it was a risky strategy, but he also recognized how badly Cindy and Kenny wanted to get the reputations back and they had the means to try. We were fortunate because we could afford to do it. Unfortunately, we also were providing a guy that had more money than we had. On October 23rd, 2023, more than four years after the initial wedgie accusation, the case finally went to trial and civil court. Jail time was not at stake, just money. Most of all, Cindy wanted her kids back. That was a fight for another day, but winning this civil case would be the first step in making it happen.

9:02From the very first day of the civil trial, the courtroom itself reflected the scale of the fight. Not only were Cindy and Kenny suing Steve, but Steve countersued Cindy for defamation. And there were so many lawyers involved that several tables had to be pushed together just to accommodate everyone. Cindy and Kenny side had eight attorneys, including one who had defended Richard Nixon during the Watergate era. Steve and Christine side had five. We don't have audio recordings, but we do have transcripts. So you'll hear actors re-enact what was said under oath. On the opening day of the trial, Kenny's lawyer Chris Decker wanted the jury to hear Kenny's testimony first, even though that was going to be uncomfortable for Kenny. He was very, very nervous. He had never been through any judicial proceedings before, but we pushed him very hard. We felt it was really important for that jury to hear from his

10:04words. Right up front, I didn't do this. I did not molest these kids. I love these kids. On the stand, Stephen Christine's lawyers prided to every aspect of Kenny's life, his past relationships, his employment history, even his finances. Voice actors will read from court transcripts. You wrote as a new driver, right? Yeah, I was in between jobs. And you would file for bankruptcy in 2005, correct? Yeah. So you said initially she was going to pay off some of your debt. How much debt was that? It was roughly about $45,000. They were trying to portray him as this gold digging boyfriend, and they could never really get me footing on that because if you're trying to get a hold of money, why would you start dating a wealthy woman and then abuse the children? I mean, that would not make any logical sense.

11:10In a dramatic moment, the courtroom fell silent as Kenny's lawyer leaned in and confronted him with a series of very tough questions. I want to take a minute to make sure that the jury understands your position, Mr. Hep, on the various allegations that have been made against you over the years. Did you ever watch pornography with any of the children? Absolutely not. Did you ever sexually abuse your stepson in any way? Absolutely not. Did you ever physically abuse your stepson in any way? Absolutely not. Do you think your stepson was lying when he said he'd been sexually assaulted? No, I don't. The children aren't lying. I believe that the father coached these children and convinced these children that these events actually happened to them. And then new and disturbing allegations were addressed. Did you ever drug either of the boys?

12:13Absolutely not. Did you ever shoot a dog in front of the children? No. Did you ever put hot needles in the boys? No. So you have to be wondering where did this all come from? Well, in 2022, after two years of having no contact with Kenny, the boys made new allegations. The boys are saying that me and Cindy both beat him with a golf club. I broke his arm with a tire iron. I shot a dog in front of them and buried it. We were taking hot needles and stabbing them in the backs. We were making them eat out of the garbage. Never had any of this ever been said before. So you can see the impact of having these children with that dad and that stepmom. I mean, they just kept on going and going and elevating it to a whole new level. This is a great example of how children can be so thoroughly manipulated to say,

13:18flat out lies. And while testifying, can you get emotional recounting his arrest and overnight stay in jail? Being put in jail for something like that is very scary and I was very concerned because it's probably the most horrific crime that you could ever possibly be accused of or do. It lasts and follows you for the rest of your life. I'm living that. I'm an innocent person. I didn't do these things. I don't know how to ever get rid of it besides fight it. That's what we're here for. Kenny's lawyer asked a very important question. Did Kenny believe Steve was the cause of his injuries and damages in this case? I don't believe. I know because every single thing he's done has been on purpose, purposeful, manipulative. He's been egregious in every single way he's handled this.

14:19I'm suing for what this has cost us, which is not only our soul, but a whole hell of a lot of money. I'm not asking you for a dollar amount. It's not up to me. I want to be made whole. I've been destroyed. I've been completely ruined. I've been wronged and I want to make it right. After a long day and a half of testimony, Kenny's time on the witness stand was over. Here's his lawyer, Chris Decker again. As nervous as he was, he did really, really well. He answered every question definitively, honestly, and I believe the jury was moved by his testimony. Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers with the Hey Jonas podcast. We've been catching up with some great friends Paul Rod, Michael Bubley, Seth Meyers, Nile Horan, Jake Shane, and making some new friends while getting into what's really like to have sisters, like Alex National. She likes to control everyone and tell everyone to do that. Okay, well control is a harsh word. I would say that's a harsh word.

15:23I am more outspoken, growing up a lot of the times because she was so quiet. I would speak for like the both of us. Now I'm working on like thinking a mom is really not able to speak. And Joey King. You know if your like mom is yelling at your sibling and even if you're annoyed with your sibling, you just like won't let that slide. It's like you only can yell at your sibling. I'm like, you can't do that here. That is not what I'm talking about. Like that. I just want to talk about her. Plus we've been taking your calls, listening to your voicemails and giving advice or at least trying to. So if you've got catching up to do now with the perfect time, listen to Hey Jonas on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, body bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network.

16:26I Heart open your free I Heart app and search body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening. Is there an epidemic against literature? More specifically, Black literature. Our books are being banned, scanned by AI and destroyed. I'm Jack Weiss Peace Thomas and on this season of the Black Lit podcast, we're outside asking some of the custodians of our stories, teachers and our modern day writers why they don't want a whole bunch of little elevators, my comics is in Martin with the Kings on the ground. They want to build children who have no empathy. That's really the ultimate goal. We want books that don't make white kids feel bad. So is the war on literacy and affirmation or our ability to connect? Well people with a know how sexy reading is and how fun they could be and not always associated with education. It could be in a state, it could be entertainment and that is the beauty of reading. It can be all of those things. And considering this is Black reading month,

17:30the only real question is what are you reading next? Listen to Black Lit from the Black Effect podcast network on our iHeart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, what's up? I'm Tony Gonzalez and I'm October Gonzalez, but you can call me Toby. We want you to join us on our new podcast No Safe Words with October in Tony Gonzalez. We get real about marriage, parenthood, sex, divorce and all the nitty gritty stuff we all think about, but just don't say out loud. I hate that job. You're probably just going to meet some rich guy and he's going to whisk you away and I'll never see you again. This is all. Would you say a dealers actor? D? I don't even know there's the such thing as D. No, no, no, I mean like I didn't get on the sea list like I'm not even average. I'm not even passing. I'm failing. Listen to No Safe Words with October in Tony Gonzalez, part of Michael Tour podcast network available on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

18:36The week Cindy and Kenny were in Hawaii. Steve took his sons to see multiple doctors and providers. The first was a boy's pediatrician, Dr. Sheila fountain voice actors will read from court transcripts. Dr. Fountain, did you see anything in the physical examination that would be grounds for reporting to the department of human services? Justice history. But in terms of a physical examination nothing correct he had a normal exam. Did he ever tell you that Mr. Ham sexually abused them? He did not. But Dr. Fountain still contacted DHS based on the pictures Steve showed her and what Steve said. Here's Kenny's lawyer Chris Decker. Steve told Dr. Fountain these kids had been exposed to pornography. One of the children had been watching gay porn with Kenny Ham that there

19:38were sexualized behaviors that had gone on involving Kenny Ham. That trial Dr. Fountain said that had she not been told this false history of sexualized behaviors she would not have made a referral to the department of human services or the diagnosis of potential sexual abuse. The jury also heard from the sexual assault nurse examiner who examined the boy. She testified that she didn't see anything in her physical exam that would indicate sexual assault. And like Dr. Fountain, the nurse made a report to DHS based on information Steve gave her. Did anything you saw with your own eyes during the physical examination require that report? No. It was what you heard with your own ears that was concerning. Correct. The nurse testified that Steve informed her that Cindy and Kenny exposed

20:42the children to pornography and that's what initiated her report to DHS. Later that same week Steve took his son to two different hospitals including an emergency room three hours from their home. The jury heard from a social worker at that hospital. A voice actor will read her testimony. They were requesting a forensic interview to be conducted by myself. The social worker explained that Steve was adamant but the hospital's policy was that forensic interviews are never done in the ER. The emergency department as people can imagine is a pretty chaotic environment and it's not necessarily conducive to being able to have a safe environment especially for a child to talk about really challenging and difficult things. And also we just don't have the bandwidth. The social worker testified that she primarily spoke with Steve

21:44who also wanted his son to have a scope. She was asked about that procedure. It is similar to like a colonoscopy where you have a device that is inserted rectally to see what's happening along the GI tract. The thing that stood out for me in that interaction was the belief that this medical intervention would tell the patient's story. Kenny's lawyers then called an expert witness. She explained how the DHS abuse findings were overturned. Overturn means that finding entered by the county was not supported by a preponderance of the evidence or that there was new information obtained by the State Department throughout the appeals process that caused the state to believe that the finding was not supported by a preponderance of the evidence. In reports like this they aren't looking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. They're just looking to prove that it's more likely than not that the allegation is true.

22:45And when the State reviewed this case they had serious doubts about the original findings and overturned them. The witness testified how rarely that happens. It is very significant. In my practice achieving an overturned finding on an appeal is nearly impossible. It's hardly ever done. They said that this assault never happened on these children. There was no sexual abuse. There was no physical abuse. Nothing was there. But Steve was saying in court that I have used a children physically and sexually. Stephen Christine's lawyers said this was not a campaign against Kenny. They were concerned parents who believed their children could be in danger. And when Steve took the witness stand he was asked why he didn't seek medical attention for his son that weekend in Las Vegas. Voice actors will read from court transcripts.

23:45After learning about your son being in pain you made the decision not to take him to a doctor on Friday night. Correct? That is correct. Instead of taking his son to seek medical care Steve took photos that night. If my children receive an injury I'll take a picture. I have four children. I'm busy. So I want to be sure that I can see the progression. So I took a photo. But Steve took more than one photo. He took five. It seemed like he had helped too. The photographs also showed another adult helping position the child so Steve could document the area he believed was injured. And after taking these five photographs you continued to stick with your initial decision that no doctor was necessary at that point. Yes. At that time yes. And then they pointed to what else was happening that same weekend.

24:48According to testimony right after Steve took the first photo he posted a picture to Facebook of his son jumping on their hotel bed. Then almost an hour later he would take the rest of the photos. Questioning also focused on the family's activities that weekend including a visit to the hotel pool. You went to the pool with your son who you believed had an open sore? Correct. You said that your son didn't go into the water. Correct. What I was trying to do I bought the boys rafts to go on the lazy river and he was just not emotionally in a place that he could do much of anything. But my point sir is that you ride an inner tube in the water. You're certainly in the water. We were not swimming but there was no intention to get him into the pool. I was trying to have fun. It was testimony that made no sense to Cindy. I'm like wait a minute,

25:50wait a minute. You take a kid that you think is injured to the water park of all places. I mean that doesn't make any sense either. The jury also heard about what Steve did and did not communicate to Cindy while the family was still in Las Vegas. They presented a message Steve sent to Cindy about a week or so before the Vegas trip. In it, Steve said that if there was ever an emergency involving the children he would notify her and that he would not intentionally keep something important from her about the kids. But Steve didn't keep his promise to Cindy. Throughout that weekend in Vegas he never mentioned anything about their son being in pain. In fact, when Steve and the kids returned from Vegas on Sunday he took another photo of his son's bottom and then about 90 minutes later Steve message Cindy. And then the message you say the boys are making a quick trip to Denver after school for an

26:54educational experience. They will not be missing any school. Do you see that? I do. Okay, and you want to agree sir there's no mention of an injury. I agree. No mention of photographs being taken. Correct. No mention of any concern. Correct. Instead you're planning your next few days including driving the boys down to Denver and back in one night. It wasn't really planning my day. I was letting her know that the boys were going to go down for an educational experience and they could be reached on Christine's phone. Cindy believed that was further proof that their son was never injured. Something's not making any sense here because that's a three hour one way drive. But that already tells me there's nothing wrong with these kids when they get back from Vegas because he's already planning his next kid event.

27:55Kenny's lawyers then focused on what Steve said at the boys appointment with his pediatrician Dr. Fountain. And you told the truth to Dr. Fountain that day didn't you? I believe that I did. Steve was asked why he told Dr. Fountain that his young daughter watched porn with Kenny on several occasions. Steve blamed Dr. Fountain. Dr. Fountain was not taking contemporaneous notes. It's a mistake. I didn't say that. Dr. Fountain is a fantastic physician. I have tremendous respect for her. People make mistakes. Steve also blamed the sexual assault nurse examiner for writing in her notes that Cindy and Kenny exposed all three kids to pornography. That's not what I said. That's not what I'm saying. Those are her notes which were not taken contemporaneous when we were talking. So again, it's an error on the behalf of the sexual assault nurse examiner. I believe it was a mistake.

28:57We'll get back to Steve in a bit. But first, I want to jump to testimony from Steve's mother, Aleta. Cindy's lawyer asked Aleta what her grandson told her that weekend in Vegas. A voice actor will read her testimony. He told me that Kenny had stuck something in his butt. And what was your reaction to that? Shocked. I was shocked. My mind didn't want to go there. As a grandmother, you don't want to believe that. Did you believe the boy when he said that? Yeah, I did. And I still do. When you let was Steve after that statement, did you tell him what his son said? No. How come? I don't know why I didn't. Did you tell Christine? No. How come? I don't know why I didn't. Well, respectfully, you're the grandmother, correct?

29:59Exactly, yes. And you care for the children? With all my heart. At the time, Aleta was 78 years old. She spoke softly on the witness stand and at one point, asked for a break because she was suffering from altitude sickness. And you've described what you believe to have been the boy in pain and walking in a very abnormal manner for a couple of days. Yes. Why didn't you mention that to your son? I don't know why I didn't. I regret it. And you felt that he was hurting and he was crying, correct? Yes. And yet nobody took him to a doctor. Is that right? That's correct. Less than a week after Aleta said her grandson, Toltar, Kenney abused him. She, Steve and Christine went to the steamboat Springs Police Department. That's when Aleta made a

31:02statement to detective ciphers. You heard this recording in Episode 4. Tell me that Kenney had put something hard. It is behind it. And it's for me it felt like it because body was getting wrapped apart. And I said, you need to speak to people that can have you. I said, your dad has done everything that humanly possible to try to help you through this. But you're going to have to speak up in your she-word words. Cindy's lawyer asked Aleta why she encouraged her grandson to speak up, even though Aleta kept quiet. I don't know why I did that. I'm a grandmother. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a police officer. I'm just his grandmother. Kenney's lawyer, Chris Decker, found Aleta's answer to be suspicious.

32:04No grandmother would hear that. Something has been placed in his bottom. And then keep it a secret from the parent of the child particularly. If that child, as she said, was in constant discomfort that whole weekend. The jury also heard the recording of Aleta telling detective ciphers this. Aleta testified that she didn't mislead the detective and that Steve had no idea what she was going to say to him, but that didn't add up for Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker. They claimed that that was the first time they had heard it. But that's clearly not the truth because Steve and Christine had absolutely no reaction

33:09on the tape recording of this. So let's talk about their reaction. In the video of Aleta sharing this uncomfortable news with the police, Steve rubbed his thumb along his cell phone case and Christine. She simply stared at Aleta. And the video does not show any obvious verbal response from either Steve or Christine. Kenney's lawyers argued that Steve and Christine's subdued response suggested the information was not new to them. We believe that's evidence that they went in there to feed this detective through the grandmother more false information. Their conspiracy here was transparent. But Steve testified that he was horrified when his mother shared this news. I couldn't believe it. I saw my response. I was rubbing my head. I became fidgety. Yes, I was processing it.

34:12There are a lot more reactions from Steve in that video. And once they were played for the jury, Steve had a tougher time explaining himself. Okay, well control is a harsh word. I would say that's a harsh word. I am more outspoken. Growing up a lot of the times because she was so quiet, I would speak for like the both of us. Now I'm working on like thinking a mom is really not a dream before I speak. And Joey King. You know if your like mom is yelling at your sibling and even if you're annoyed with your sibling, you just like won't let that slide. It's like you only can yell at your sibling. I'm like you can't do that here. That is not what I want about her like that.

35:14Plus we've been taking your calls listening to your voice mails and giving advice or at least trying to. So if you've got catching up to do now's the perfect time. Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, body bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening. Is there an epidemic against literature? More specifically Black literature. Our books are being banned, scanned by AI and destroyed. I'm Jack Weiss-Peace Thomas and on this season of the Black Lit podcast we're outside asking some of the custodians of our stories, teachers and our modern

36:17day writers why. They don't want a whole bunch of little elevators, smock them access and the kings will know out. They want to build children who have no empathy. That's really the ultimate goal. We want books that don't make white kids feel bad. So is the war on literacy and affirmation or our ability to connect? Well people with a know how sexy reading is then how fun they could be and not always associated with education. It could be in a state, it could be entertainment and that is the beauty of reading. It can be all of those things. And considering this is Black reading month, the only real question is what are you reading next? Listen to Black Lit from the Black Effect podcast network on our iHeart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Hey what's up I'm Tony Gonzalez and I'm October Gonzalez but you can call me Toby. We want you to join us on our new podcast No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez. We get real about marriage, parenthood, sex, divorce and all the nitty gritty stuff we all think about but just don't

37:21say I love. I hate that job. You're probably just going to meet with some rich guy and he's going to whisk you away and I'll never see you again. This is all. Would you say a dealers actor? De? I don't even know there's the such thing as De. No no no I mean like I didn't get on the sea list like I'm not even average. I'm not even passing. I'm failing. Listen to the No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez, part of Michael Tour podcast network available on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Steve is on the stand and Cindy and Kenny's lawyers are playing more recorded reactions from Steve. Here's Detective Cypher's explaining how he planned to charge Kenny with child abuse. It's the highest misdemeanor that can be charged. It's not this exult that I think that I want to

38:22try and get. And Steve's reaction to the detective's words stood out to Kenny's lawyer Chris Decker. Steve is happy. He says I could effing hug you and what really stood out to me is his reaction, his joy at hearing that. And then they played more from that same video. This time the jury heard Camila Hyte, the DHS worker talking with Steve. It isn't easy to hear Steve's response because he talked over Camila but listened to his reaction. I want to interview Cindy and talk to her and interview Kenny and see what they have to say about it. It's not easy to find it. Sorry, I have to use some humor because you made me look fuck no other. And you're on the Christmas card list right now. He says I could hug you. You're going to be on my Christmas list. It's just very strange and that doesn't add up with how a parent would be reacting to hearing

39:27that there is probable cause to believe that their child had been physically and or sexually abused. That's not something anyone would be happy about. There's more from that recording. In fact, about 30 seconds after telling detective ciphers he would effing hug him, Steve made a joke to the detective. Here's Cindy's lawyer questioning Steve about his reactions. Voice actors will read from court transcripts. Why are you saying he's on your Christmas card list? After he tells you he's going to put Mr. Hampton jail. I appreciated that detective ciphers was doing his job to keep our community safe and remove child offenders off the street. Cindy wasn't buying Steve's explanation.

40:28Most parents, if their kids were truly, truly abused physically or sexually, would not be behaving that way. Like the whole thing would be a more somber moment. But he was enjoying it. Earlier you heard from a social worker at a Denver hospital who testified how Steve was adamant his son get a forensic interview and a scope. Steve was asked about that. What I recall saying is that my son believed that this is one of the saddest parts of the story. Is that if they inserted the scope, it would play a movie of what happened to him, so he wouldn't have to say someone he cared about hurt him? Well, it's not that he would have to say something about someone he cared about, sir. It's that he doesn't know what happened to him and he's hoping that the scope will tell his story. I completely disagree with that statement. I believe he knows exactly what happened to him.

41:33Because you told him, sir? I disagree with that. So you continue to seek a scope after this date? After a social worker told you, it wouldn't be able to tell you what happened? I continued to seek medical care, which part of that could be a scope, yes. There was no scope performed on your son ever, correct? Correct. Because it was never medically necessary or appropriate. Isn't that right? I would assume that to be the case if it didn't happen. By the time of Steve's testimony in November of 2023, over four years had passed since a judge took away Cindy's parenting time. In an emotional exchange on the witness stand, Steve's lawyer asked him how difficult it was to file that motion. His testimony is read by a voice actor. It was the most difficult decision I've ever made. Because I will have to account to the children.

42:35I'm taking their mother away or the court is. But it was hard. Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker, found Steve's answer to be disingenuous. He said, with tears in his eyes, the most difficult day for him was having to go back and get custody of these kids. Because he wanted the mother of his children in their lives. And that was the hardest day of his life. And what he was saying didn't make sense. It didn't make sense when you compared that to a question Kamala Hyde from DHS asked Steve. You heard that in episode three. Kamala asked him the question. If I had a magic wand, what would you want? If you could wave a magic wand today. What would you want? A call custody in the children. So when he says in the interview that if you had a magic wand,

43:36he would get a full custody yet at trial. He testifies that this was the hardest decision of his whole life to seek a full custody. And he started crying. It didn't make any sense. It was completely manufactured. Steve was asked about the magic wand comment. Sir, you wanted full custody. You wanted full decision making. Isn't that right? I wanted to keep my children safe. That wasn't my question. Do you remember my question? I do. And you're talking about the magic wand statement. So you wanted full custody and full decision making. If you're waving a magic wand. Well, the purpose of a magic wand, sir, is to give you what you want, isn't it? That's not how I interpret it. If I just, if it was magical, I don't believe in magic, unfortunately. That's not what you said in the video. That I don't believe in magic.

44:36Right. I'll testify today. I don't believe in magic. He will do anything to avoid answering a basic, yes, no question. It'll drive you insane. Several times the judge had to redirect him and say, please answer the question. There was another witness that was perhaps the most important to Cindy and Kenny's case. The district attorney, Matt Carson, the very DA who had brought the felony child abuse charges against Kenny, was called to the witness stand. DA Carson testified that Steve's involvement in the case was unlike anything he'd ever seen before. A voice actor will read his testimony. It's not just somebody saying, I want 20 years in prison and it's a misdemeanor. This was, you know, I want felony prosecution. I want felony level sex offense prosecution.

45:37That stuff comes with mandatory prison sentences. DA Carson noted how aggressively Steve was trying to get his office to prosecute Kenny. Steve even hired a separate attorney to handle the interactions with the DA's office. I mean, on a scale of 1 to 10, if the normal involvement of parents in a case of child abuse is out of 5, this was easily a 9. It was as much as I'd ever experienced. The district attorney also testified about an early meeting he had with Steve. At the time, the DA was running for re-election. What stands out is a comment that Steve made to me right at the beginning of the meeting. If you can put a felony charge on hemp, I would make a big donation to your campaign for DA words to that effect. I don't know if that was the exact wording, but that's what he said. We talked to DA Carson and asked him about that very moment. He laughed immediately. It was a joke, but it made me very uncomfortable.

46:39I felt like that was a very strange sort of thing to say. Certainly wildly inappropriate, arguably prosecutable. DA Carson said Steve's campaign contribution joke put him on edge immediately, as for the case itself. New allegations were coming in a lot, and the source was usually Steve reporting that one of the boys has this new piece of information or said this new thing. That was unusual. That's not something I have seen very often. But what Steve was reporting didn't match up with what the children said in their forensic interviews. Instead, at least one of the boys attributed things to their dad, Steve. When asked why do you think that, the answer on a few occasions was essentially because that's what my dad told me. Or Kenny did this to me.

47:39Why do you think that? Because my dad says that's what he did. Or who did this to you? Well, it was probably Kenny. So that evolving reporting from the kids coupled with the behavior of Steve started to make me really nervous about what was going on here. I remember specifically sort of landing in a place where like, I don't know what happened here. I don't know if somebody is trying to get the kids to frame Mr. Ham. I didn't know what was going on. The only thing I was certain of is that I didn't have any reliable sense of what did or didn't happen to the kids anymore. Well, at that meeting Steve had with the DA, after he dropped the charges against Kenny, the DA said something strange. And it was caught on tape. I have no doubt those children were victimized criminally by Kenny Ham and Doris and he's none. In my 25 years of experience, everything tells me that's true.

48:40On the tape, the DA blames Cindy and Kenny, which was the opposite of his testimony in court. So why did the DA do that? Who recorded their conversation and why? That tape recording would cause both sides to go on the defensive. If you want to record the conversation, just tell me you're doing it. That's next time on Burden of Guilt. Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying Burden of Guilt, subscribe, rate and review the series with 5 Stars, hopefully. That helps other people find our show.

49:40Are you curious about what the people involved in this look like? Do you want to hear bonus content? Just check out our Instagram account at Glass Podcasts. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at BurdenOfGuiltPod at gmail.com. That's BurdenOfGuiltPod at gmail.com. BurdenOfGuilt is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeartPodcast. This series is executive produced and hosted by me, Nancy Glass, produced by Todd Gans. Also produced by Ben Federman and Andrea Gunning, additional production support provided by Carrie Hartman. Thank you to our voice actors, Dan Teats, James Palumbo, Tray Morgan, Tanner Robbins, Beth Bainey, Tim Perez-Ross, Caitlin Golden, and Sydney Gladiou. Our story editor is Monique LeBord.

50:41Our associate producer is Jade Abdul-Malik. Our production manager is Kristen Milkury. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crindcheck, audio editing by Dean Welsh. Audio mixing and mastering by Anna McLean and Matt Delbeckiel. The BurdenOfGuilt theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by myB music. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app or Apple Podcasts. If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, body bags is where you need to turn.

51:42There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morian on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morian and start listening. I believe that whoever was in that room and did that was a murderer. A new podcast series, Fault Line Haditha, tells the story of a shocking crime and a cover-up at the highest levels of the United States Marine Corps. If you've got five players and you offer immunity to four, you better be right about the fifth because if you're not, then you've just given immunity to your color. Listen to Fault Line Haditha on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi listeners, I'm Nell McShane Wolfhardt, the host of the Girlfriends Flight or Fight Podcast. I'm excited to share the Girlfriends Flight or Fight story with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of season 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 of the Girlfriends and every single episode of the Girlfriends Flight or Fight, 100% Add-Free.

52:58With an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of the Girlfriends Flight or Fight one week ahead of everyone else, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeartTrueCrimePlus and subscribe today. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon, and we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Jochi, and Kai Wright, and this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.