Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists & Frauds (You Seriously Believe Jesus Said What?) with John Fugelsang

Welcome to part one of our extraordinary conversation with John Fugelstein, author of the

recent book Separation of Church and Hate. This book should be required reading for anyone

interested in our interested in following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Welcome to deep transformation, self-society spirit, life-enhancing, paradigm-ravelling

conversations with cutting-edge thinkers, contemplatives, and activists with Dr. Roger Walsh and John

Dupuis. I'm Roger Walsh and our co-host is John Dupuis. And as part of our job here, co-hosting

this podcast, John and I get to read a lot of really good books. In fact, that's why we often select

our guests because they've written really good books. But never, never since the podcast began,

I had such a great time reading our guest's book as this one because it is not only educational

informative, eye-opening. It is hilarious. And that's no surprise because our guest is John Fugelstein,

who is a medium-aster in many arenas. He's an award-winning actor, producer,

interviewer, he has his own podcast. And he has written, and I should say also, he's a well-known

comedian. And if you want to have a really good laugh, I'll look him up on the web at some of

videos. And hopefully, also, I'm assuming, today also gets some laughs as well because he's a master

comedian. And John has written an amazing book, which is a wonderful tongue twister of a sub-title,

but let me try. It's the separation of church and hate, saving the Bible from fundamentalists,

fascists, and flock-leasing frauds. Try saying that a few times quickly. John, welcome. It is

really a delight. Thank you so much for this book. It's really a contribution and speaks to

some of the great issues of our time and some of the great challenges in our society in terms of

some of the conflicts that are happening in large part around different interpretations of the

Bible. So, welcome. This is an important work, guys. Got to read it. I wasn't sure how

comedy would work. With the subject matter, you did it brilliantly. And to me, it's a lot deeper

than it is funny, although I appreciate the humor. That's kind of helps the medicine go down,

right? But it just worked for me. I would read into my eyes, got blurry. Very good book.

Oh, gentlemen, thank you so much. It's thank you for having me and it's a great honor to appear

on your beautiful show and drag it down to my base level. So, thank you. I'm very happy to be here.

Well, we can all work on that. Okay. Well, John, there's so many a lot of places we could stop,

but why don't we start where you started your book and your family of origin and your

induction into the Bible? Sure. The history of writing this book, fascinating too.

So, oh, yeah. Well, I'm glad we have some time to cover a lot of ground and I'm really happy to be

here. You know, a lot of what I do is political interviews on political shows or comedic shows,

and so it actually be with people who are more spiritually educated than me as an honor.

I'm here because my parents were in the clergy and both left. So, my mother was a nun with the

daughters of wisdom order. They put her through nursing school and she worked as a nurse with

lepers in Malawi, Africa. My father was a Franciscan brother who wore the brown Jedi robes and

taught history to Catholic boys in Brooklyn, and my father, the brother, met my mother, the sister,

was madly in love with her for 10 years, finally got her to leave the convent. So, I grew up with a

very interesting perspective on the contradictions that you'll always find in religion because of

religion. I'm not supposed to be here, but because of religion, I get to be here. And like so many,

I was raised to believe that Christianity was supposed to be about the things that Christ taught

and commanded, servant leadership and humility, and looking out for the least of these and how you

treat the lowest of us is how you treat Jesus. I learned how in Matthew 25, Jesus gives his

marching orders for what a nation would have to do to be called a Christian nation. Y'all know

it better than me, the judgment of nations, the parable of the goats in the sheep. Jesus says,

take care of the poor, you take care of the sick, you welcome the stranger and you're good to

people in prison. That's it. Like that's heaven or hell according to Jesus, which is why

right-wing Christians never quote it. And like millions I grew up feeling like this religion of

peace and love and empathy and service had been hijacked by a self-serving white supremacist

mean little tax-free click. And everywhere I've gone, performing and broadcasting during TV

or radio, I've met so many folks who were raised religious now consider themselves spiritual.

People stop going to church not because of God, not because of Jesus, not because of Noah's

Ark or Santa Claus, but because of the cruelty and hypocrisy of so many American churches. And so

this book was my attempt for believers and non-believers. It was a tough pitch for the first few

years trying to sell this. The publicists were like, well, it's for it's for atheists and

Christians. What? And I'm like, it's for anyone of any belief system who's ever going to have to

deal with a Christian nationalist or a hard right-wing fundamentalist in their family and their job

in their school, in their local government, in their school board. And I am a comedian so it's

got a few more inappropriate jokes than most books about theology, but I'm so grateful it's been

so well received and I'm thrilled that y'all liked it. Yeah, it was John said just a delight to read

and you must have what seems such a rear art. I mean, I love the combination of comedy and

education. So you crafted those two beautifully. My wife gets all the credit for that. I spent a lot

of time trying to figure out the right voice for this. You know, I think with writing, it's not about

finding your voice. It's about finding which of the many voices we all have is the right one.

And I would read my wife early passages of the book and she would say, I'm bored.

She would interrupt me to say, it's not funny. I'm not laughing. She would like stop me and say,

you're trying to write like one of the academics or authors you have on your show. That's not you.

You're not a professional smart person. And my wife kept on my case to make it as conversational

and irreverent and goofy as I possibly could. My goal was to make a book that was light and dense.

So I thank you both so much for getting that.

Yeah. And those primarily written to give us, you know,

the arguments to argue against the right wing nationalist racist blah blah Christian so-called.

But it works at a deeper level also. And let me tell you a little bit about my experience. When I

was 11 or 12, I got a, I was raised Catholic and I got a hold of a little Gideon's New Testament.

I started reading Matthew in the first gospel and I got to sermon on the map and it just

boom. I went, oh my God. Oh, it's this guy. You know, he's on the walls of churches. I've never heard

this stuff. And he was throwing the Vietnam law and I had one brother who was a hippie who'd run off

go hate asperry. And the other was an infantry man at Vietnam. So I was just looking at that and

looking to world around me. I think I spent years of my life trying to find Christians that were

actually doing what you're talking about. And that took me some some weird roads. But when I read

this book, it was like, oh, thank God. Somebody wrote this. So John, very, very moved, very impressed.

Oh, you're so kind. There are many progressive theology books and I, Lord knows I've read plenty

and I've been inspired by many, many writers who are much better writers and human beings than me.

But not a lot done by a foul mouth comedian. So thank you for that.

Yeah, I just got to go back and say I loved what you said about your wife's comments because my

late wife's my first book. I drew a popular book. I tried to write right after she read three pages

and said, if you want to reach people, be really good if they could understand it. Right. God bless

her. It's so true. And I, you know, I, this is my first book. So yes, I'm guilty of sometimes trying

to write like I think a writer talks. And because I was so shamed as you were, thank God, by our wives.

By the time I got into the studio at Simon and Schuster to record the audiobook, it was the easiest

part of the process. I had already said it out loud a hundred times. I turned in the first draft of

this. I was in Chicago for the Democratic Convention in 2024 and I was up all night. I had to go

for serious XM and around 6 a.m. the morning the convention started. I finally turned it in because

I was reading it all out loud as I wrote it because I had to make sure it was conversational up to

the end. I didn't want it to feel like a lecture. So I'm deeply gratified that you felt that way.

And John, what put the fire in your belly is? At some point you said this book hasn't been written.

It needs to be written. And it was a labor of love for you said 13 years before anybody would

publish it. And it's really hard to believe. Yeah. I first started talking about this book and

oh, Lordy. I mean, the first time I actually submitted a proposal was in 2010 in the summer.

My father was in hospice and I went down south to stay with him for a couple of months.

And I had the time. If you've done hospice, you know it's a lot of sitting around. And

my dad actually hit send on the email when I first submitted the first book proposal.

And you know, as I said, editors didn't understand. They thought, wait, it's for atheists and

believers together. And then years went by and I tried doing it again with different agents and

different publishers. And you know, I got some good response at first, but then they came back and

said, can you write a love story about your parents courtship? I want to cry. My age, it was like

I'm right. I know you can write a love story where I'll cry in the end. And I'm like, well,

yeah, I want to write that. But that's not what this is. I'm not trying to write literature. I'm

trying to write a book that I wish someone had given me at age 17. When I was trying to understand

how the religion of love my mother and father had raised me in was the same religion as these

televangelists, these ex-segregationists like Jerry Falwell, these white supremacists and woman

haters and homophobes and Muslim haters and immigrant haters on TV. Why is the media presenting

people like this as Christian leaders who have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus and the

Bible I grew up with? I think that disconnect is universal. And I think the media is terrified of

addressing it. Ward knows the Democratic Party is terrified of addressing it. And so I just thought,

well, there's lots of great theologians and clergy and authors who've written books like this.

Maybe a comedian should try that as well. And so for me, these are things that I've talked about

for years on my serious exemption. I've debated these things. These are things I've covered on

television. And, you know, I mean, I debated David Duke and Jerry Falwell on Bill Mar when I was

still in my 20s. So it was a labor of love. But yes, from the time I first submitted my first

proposal to the book being released, it was a little over 15 years. So never give up guys on your

passions. All right. Well, thank you for the encouragement. I think how long I've been

trying to write something now. Really? How long are you working on it? Oh, 12 years. I understand.

I get it. That's a different story. So you implied something interesting here, John. And that is

that you are part of a large movement, which is an attempt to provide a correction to what has been a

media focus on some of the more fundamentalist perspectives on the Bible and somewhat not so

generous interpretations of media has focused on. And you're focusing on contemporary issues,

but there's a long history. There's something in the human psyche that tends to use religion,

which is, you know, traditionally defined as the concern with ultimate values,

try to use those in the service of whatever egocentric motives. Correct. And so it's been used

really. Religion has powered both the best and the worst of human behavior. Amen.

You know, if I'm in the extraordinary starting with Jesus, and of course, even before him,

but in so many traditions, these extraordinary human beings that have lived from express

communicated these teachings and yet have a history of these same teachings being used to justify

war and slavery and torture and which burning, etc. And so there's this long history. And now you're

addressing some of the contemporary misinterpretations, the disposition of the now history,

disposition of Native Americans, slavery, and more recently, the surge of

resurgence of fundamentalism and now Christian nationalism. So it seems like you're part of

your coming in a contemporary focus on what is a almost a perennial human issue here.

I think so, but if there's one thing the last few years have taught me, it's that current events

aren't always current. And so many of the issues that divide us have divided us for

a very long time. And I don't think it's the same teachings used for atrocities. I think it's

the same book. I think it's this notion of, well, it's in the Bible somewhere. And that has allowed

a lot of people to justify a lot of evil acts. Religion didn't invent hate. But hate has always

found voice and a home in religion. And as George Harrison said, as long as you hate,

there will be people to hate. And we've seen this to the entire history of the faith, I would say,

since Rome co-opted, let's go back to the crusades. The crusades is a great example of the beginning

of doing the opposite of what Christ commands for Christ. You know, we're going to go slaughter

Muslims and pagans and Jews and steal land for Jesus, right? We're going to

doctorate of discovery. The Vatican does the most unholy thing. Go out there and subdue and

subjugate people and steal their resources. Bring it back here. But do it for Jesus. Put up a lot

of crosses and convert them. And as we learn from slavery and Indian boarding schools, being saved

didn't save anybody. You can easily look at the long, bloody, brutal history of authoritarian

Christianity. And many atheists do and say, that's what the faith really is. And maybe that's what

Christianity is. But that's not Christ followers. And I say that throughout the entire history of

the faith, it's always been the Christ followers pushing back against authoritarian Christianity,

St. Francis of Assisi, leaving the crusades, renouncing violence, walking unarmed through a war

zone to host peace talks, Bartolomeo de las Casas, the Catholic priest on Columbus' third voyage,

committing one of the first acts of protest by a white person in this hemisphere,

writing to the queen to protest what Columbus was doing to the Tyno people. You know, they knew

back then it was wrong. Look at how American slavery was propped up by Christianity and

bastardizing the story of the ham in Noah. But it was Christ followers like Frederick Douglass

and the Quakers and Harriet Tubman who resisted. Look at segregation propped up by Christianity.

Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Baptist Rebodies or Baptist Church uses scripture in non-violence

to shame white Christian America. Out of this American apartheid, Hitler, the greatest Christian

nationalist of all time and Dietrich Bonhoeffer is one of the martyrs who gives his life as a

Christ follower against Christian nationalism. Look at how many of us have talked so many parents

and grandparents out of so much homophobia in the last 20 years. There's an incredibly inspiring

history of Christian activism in this world. And it's almost always in resistance to Christian

authoritarianism. And I understand why it's so strange for so many people to look at the fall

wells to look at the turning point USA people to look at the Donald Trumps and say, this is my

religion I was raised in. And sometimes you got to separate the authoritarian Christians

from the actual Jesus followers. And you do that very well in this book. This is not a rant or

bagging on all Christians. Oh, saying that there's been so much good stuff. But this is a sub that's

in the air now and has really let us astray. And just I go after fundamentalists of all religions.

I like I go after fundamentalists because the the same people ruining Christianity or ruining

Islam, ruining Judaism, turning people off to faith. And you say, you know, if you want to be a

Jesus follower Christian, I get a red letter edition of the Bible. And the New Testament has all

the words that Jesus actually said in red letters. So and you you talked about how Paul kind of

grabbed the whole thing and ran off with it. And most of the hateful stuff that we get in the

Bible is not the fundamentalists quoting Jesus. Correct. But the quoting Paul and Paul had some

issues. Oh, I really had some real problems reading him. And sometimes as you bring out in the book,

you know, first Corinthians 13, it's brilliant piece. But then there's his hang ups. And then you

said, because we interpreted everything he wrote as the revealed word of God. So then his anti-wan

anti gay anti this we inherited it. And we weren't able to separate it. And I think I think you

just do a beautiful job and just separating the junk out there. And it inspires you to actually

be a Christian again. Oh, Lord, thank you for that. I mean, I've gotten a bit of heat about my

comments on Paul. I want to stress it's not an anti-Paul book at all. I realized in writing it.

I didn't want to write a whole chapter on Saint Paul, but I realized I'm sure you should have

a little bit know you can't tell the story of how Christianity began and how it got to where it is

now without doing a deep dive on Saul of Tarsus. And you know, I give Paul a lot of slack. I don't

think he realized what was going to happen with his letters he was sending to set up the early church.

But it's very important. We know the story that he was a persecutor of Christians. He was present for

the martyrdom of Saint Stephen. He was harassing and really good at catching Christians and making

their lives hell. And that's why they began sending him out. And that's what Damascus was.

And it's a great story. I was never taught was that Paul was a Pharisee and Paul was a Roman citizen,

which allowed him to travel more freely through the empire and allowed him a lot of protection

while his old buddies were murdering the actual apostles. So the apostles were all getting bumped

off. And Paul's version was the one that lasted. Paul was able to travel and sell his version of

Christianity, which was, yeah, it's like Judaism, but there's eternal forgiveness. And you can have

bacon and keep your foreskin. And that wound up being really good marketing. And the rate of

conversion was astonishing. And within 300 years, the empire that killed Jesus took over his operation.

And that's because of Paul's work. Again, the apostles, there's only like 20 people following Jesus

at the time he died. And most of them got knocked off. So Paul's version lasted. And Paul

poured himself and all of his heart and soul and all of his sex hang-ups into this into his

letters and just telling people how to set things up. So when he writes to Timothy and says,

all scriptures, God breathed. He's talking about the Hebrew scriptures. He's not talking about the

letter. He's writing to Timothy right now. This he's not saying this letter is God breathed.

Scriptures God breathed. So 300 years after he's gone and Rome killed him eventually, you know,

the Roman citizenry did not save him. Rome takes over. Jesus' operation, not unlike how the

Confederates took over the Republican Party. And suddenly Paul's letter is about holy scripture.

Our holy scripture. And suddenly Paul's not talking about God. Paul's speaking for God. And

suddenly for millions, Paul's hang-ups about women being second-class citizens are just as valid

as Christ treating women as equals. And Paul's homophobia, which is a complete rejection of the

sermon on the Mount, is as valid as Christ's commandments to love. So it's in the New Testament,

allows a lot of people to embrace certain deeply un-Christ-like positions. And again, Paul was

doing the best he could. I think sometimes we're too hard on the guy because he didn't know. And in

many ways, Paul was advanced. You know, in some letters, he says women can't speak in church and

must be in submission. And then he makes Phoebe a deacon. So it's almost like he's writing

different things for different audiences or different people wrote these letters over many,

many years and signed it as Paul. But the thing is, Paul's not Jesus. And I say, I titled the chapter,

Paul, Jesus's PR man, who is not Jesus. A lot of theologians, including the Great Bishop John

Shelby Spong of the Dices of Newark, have posited the theory that Paul was a closeted gay man in the

first century Holy Land. And I thought that on my own. Right? Yeah. I've read it all over. And

when you read the letters with that in mind, it makes a lot of sense because Paul didn't like straight

sex either. Paul just thought the body's bad. I thought everybody should be celibate like him. So

with compassion to Paul, and there's so much beautiful language and so much that he writes about

love that's very valuable. But there's a reason right-wing mean Christians quote Paul. A lot more

than they quote Jesus. And it's astonishing how many woman haters and homophobes believe Corinthians

and Romans and Timothy are Jesus talking. Not this guy that never actually knew Jesus while he was

alive. And what did Jesus have to say about the religious hypocrites? I'm setting you up for this.

Yeah. I mean, next to helping the poor calling out the religious hypocrites was Jesus's favorite

thing to do in live appearances. That's what enraged Jesus, not sexual behaviors. The only sexual

behavior is Jesus ever gets upset about are dumping your wife and adultery. That's it. You know,

I mean, there are so many prohibitions against women in society and Jesus knocks them all down.

When a woman is being slut-chamed in his presence, he is not interested in making the woman feel

bad about it. He knows she feels bad and he's about the forgiveness. Jesus is not about condemnation

or domination. His whole movement is about transformation and that's what's so beautiful about it.

Yeah, and I would just add one thing that John, you emphasize transformation, I would agree completely.

But also say transcendence. Yes, sir. Yeah. And they're related, but I think distinct. And so

there's this profound call to a moral transformation and a spiritual awakening or transcendence

in the words of Jesus. And clearly this guy has something, I mean, there's, I sometimes have

gone through and just looked at the more mystical sayings. It's like, wow, okay, this is, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the greatest thing about Jesus is that his teachings are as threatening to

authoritarian power now as they were 2000 years ago. But also, there's just so much that can

endless discoveries to be made in the depths of his love and compassion. I mean, I get, you

know, for me, it's like listening to a great Bob Dylan record and I'll get more out of it every

time I read it. Yeah, and I think that's one of the hallmarks of a profound person and text that

you can go back to and it's like, where was I in the last time I read this? Yeah, for me too.

And that's why I wrote it, that outrageously pro-Jesus book. And I meet so many young people who just

don't understand and I just want to say it. It's not Jesus. It's his unauthorized fanclubs.

And a lot of these fanclubs don't have anything to do with Jesus. Right-wing Christianity does not

care about the teachings or commandments of Christ. They don't care about God. They don't care

about religious freedom. They don't care about fighting Satan. They care about conservative Christian

power. That's what they fight for. And they will use the Bible, use Jesus. They will wave Jesus

around like a prop while legislating against his actual teachings. And this is alienated so many

millions from even the concept of belief. And that's why it was so important to me to write it,

because they don't own God. They don't own religion. They don't own fate. They don't own Jesus.

They don't own America. And they don't own you. And so I just wanted, when I was 17 trying to

understand how I knew gay people. I worked in theater. And yet my church told me that they were

evil in sinners. And I knew they were good people. I knew they were Christ-like people. I knew

gay men who were better Christians than many of the Christians I knew. And I didn't understand.

And I felt like Huckleberry Finn, you know, reading the letter about returning Jim and like,

okay, I'll go to hell then fine. I'll go to hell for him if that's what hell means. And the

reality is no religion lied to you. People who don't know the Bible very well, but used it to get

power lied to you. And for so many of our racist loved ones who think that that's part of Christianity,

that's not because of Jesus or God. They were lied to by their parents or their parents' church. And

people can only wake up out of that matrix one at a time. We can't drag them out. So I wrote this

book as a guide to people who have to live with those kind of people with the haters, not conservative

Christians, conservative Christians that I may disagree on things, but we don't hate each other for it.

I'm talking y'all know the hardcore Christian nationalists who think that hate is strength. And

that's just what I wanted to smash with this book. Yeah, you've taken given us Jesus back. It's

quite a thing, you know. Did the archaeological dig and separated trash and a chaff in our inherited

ridiculous things and awful things in Christianity, and given us back Jesus. And it's so powerful.

I don't blame Jody Foster for what her crazy fans do. So I can't blame Jesus for what his crazy

fans do. Well, you've got a big heart, my friend. I mean, look, it's like I say in the beginning,

this is not tearing down religion. And I keep reminding the atheist, I keep having little messages

to atheists and conservative Christian readers throughout this and thanking them for making it this far.

But you know, our atheist friends, very often will say, oh, religions responsible for all the

oppression and misogyny and homophobia and violence and and unlike it's not religion, it's the

fundamentalist wings of all religions, the overwhelming majority of liberal and moderate and even

conservative Christians, Muslims and Jews are getting along just fine right now all around the

world creating communities and families and businesses and going to school together. And that kind

of stuff doesn't get on the news. The media is one of the unsung villains of the right turn for

Christianity because showing nice people of different faiths getting along is terrible for ratings.

But having a violent, douchebag hater, that's great. I mean, I'll watch if there's a horrible

right-wing Christian on TV because they make good villains. They make for great TV. They didn't

put Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on because they were such good Christians who said that things

Christ said. They put him on because they were good for ratings. And that's why we've had 45

years in this country of criminalizing abortion, replacing everything Jesus talked about in the

minds of certain right-wing Christian folk. And I just want to say a thank you, John, for being in

the media and being so successful because it seems to me that depending on our media, we're going to

make it or not as a civilization because media is the most powerful institution in the world at

the moment. And so to have someone like yourself bring, really trying to bring some sanity and

love and compassion in is really extremely important. And I know it's a very challenging medium.

So thanks for just thank you for doing that. You're very kind. I don't know. My definition of

success has changed a lot over the years. You know, when I was very young, one of my first network

jobs was hosting America's funniest home videos. I did that for a couple of years and lovely people

paid me very well. And I realized on that job that my concept of success was different than my

managers and agents concepts of success. So for me, this was something that was in my heart that I

wanted to do. It's not commercial. I've had many managers and agents over the years beg me to not

talk about the Bible, but it's something that's been in my heart. And it's something that I wanted

to find the right way to express. So it wouldn't be preachy or just condemnation. I wanted it to

be entertainment. And at the same time, you know, I also thought there was an audience for it. I

pitched this assignment and choose to sang. No, there's people out there who'll buy a book like this

because I do believe that, you know, they tell us the largest growing religious group are Mormons

or some say Islam and some say it's none of the above's. But I always believe the largest

group in this country are people who were raised religious. And like I said, now consider

themself spiritual. Those folks are out there and the spiritual hunger is not going to end whether

religion does anything. People are always going to be in love with the great mystery. They're

always going to lean into the great question mark. And I think Jesus can show us the way. Let's get

some of his more obnoxious cheerleaders who don't actually follow him, you know, just to the

sidelines a bit and talk about what he and this is why I throughout the book, I give debate tips

for people with their right wing loved ones saying you're never going to convert them.

But you will sway the bystanders, their wives, their kids at the table, people at the cook out.

If you can model respectful debate and ask questions rather than attack. And if you can,

you know, actually say, well, where does Jesus say this? Or if you believe this, don't you have to

believe, I mean, if you want to use Leviticus 18 to say being gay is bad, don't you have to

stone Donald Trump to death for adultery as per Leviticus 2010? I mean, it's your passage,

is what you say you live by. And I try to make it entertaining in that sense for all the issues

that divide us from gun control, feminism, abortion rights, LGBTQ equality, anti-semitism,

healthcare policy, social safety,ness for the poor. I try to cover as much ground as the death

penalty, of course, and to show that even if you're an atheist and don't believe in Jesus,

if you're debating a right wing Christian, that Jesus you don't believe in is probably on your

side and he can help you with the argument. And I also believe these people aren't zealots.

They're not nationalists. There are family members in many cases. There are old friends from high

school who are still in touch with on Facebook. We can't hate them back. And I find, not all the time,

most of these folks have never been debated about what the Bible actually says. And y'all know,

there's plenty of Christians in this country, you'll just think, hey, I put up a tree in my house

once a year and I hate Muslims. I'm a Christian, you know. I mean, I find that you're a nationalist

level one may appreciate that you took the time to engage them on scripture. I'll always believe

we get farther by showing in the Bible how Jesus is not an immigrant hating homophob

than if we just haul off and call our right wing relative an immigrant hating homophob.

Yeah. And it's very hard for them to argue against it when you show the Matthew 25, for example.

And yeah, she said, how we're supposed to treat people? What's important? And you bring that

forth so much. Jesus said, the way you treat the poorest among the way you treat the homeless,

the way you treat the prisoners is how you treat me. Yeah. Is that revolutionary or what?

It's so so important. I mean, I go into that in the first chapter of the book and I say, I mean,

we can end the book right here. You know, you got things to do. I mean, like you get me a Matthew

25, that's it. And it's not just Jesus saying what it takes to be a Christian nation. It's also

Jesus letting you know who his fake followers are. The ones who talk a good game about piety,

but who don't want individuals and nations to care for the poor care for the sick, welcome the

stranger and be kind to those in prison. Again, how you treat them is how you treat Jesus.

And for the life of me, I just, I really want to see more Matthew 25 Christians like Senator

Raphael Warnock, who bring this up and use scripture and nonviolence to shame these frauds out of

this racket of Christian nationalism, because the whole thing is based on the fact that you're better

than other people. It's against the founding fathers and against the gospels. The notion that you're

better than someone else because you believe in Jesus. You believe that you don't really believe in

Jesus. His demands whole mission is about humility, servant leadership, washing the feet of your

followers, going to the margins and helping the least of us. It's not about total right wing

domination of the school board. Yes. So I mean, like, you know, and again, I'm in political talk

radio. So this is more of a hot head about it than most nice people. And this is what I've done

for years is debate, debate, debate about it. And I thought, well, let me let folks know, you know,

on all these points, all these points, like they're, they're allowed to think whatever they want.

But if they're going to claim with our first amendment that they're speaking and fighting for

Jesus, we're allowed to use that first amendment to ask some questions to see if they really mean it,

because most of these right wing folks have not read the Jesus parts and they're counting on the

rest of us not having read them either. And maybe to expand the frame a little bit, we can talk

primarily about Jesus and the gospels, but there's a lot of other Bible and this and very curious

stuff. And yeah, really important to acknowledge that the Bible is this incredible mishmash of

fables, myths, wisdom, love, compassion, extraordinary, horrendous acts of one kind or another.

And you can basically, you're pretty much able to find anything you want to justify any position.

Exactly. Yeah. So that's why I bring it back to Jesus.

Because you're right. You can justify anything from this book. So, you know, that's, it's in the

Bible somewhere. It's in the Bible. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've had this debate with

people about, no, Jesus says this and they'll say, hey, it's in the Bible. And it's good enough for

them. Well, Christians aren't supposed to follow the Bible. The Bible doesn't tell us to follow the

Bible. The Bible tells us to follow Christ. And if you've been suckered into believing that you're

at hate in Leviticus is as valid as the love of the gospels, then find a new name for your religion.

You know, I mean, that's if I'm in a Rolling Stones cover band and I advertise that I am in a

Rolling Stones cover band, but we only do songs by vanilla ice, then I need to find a new name for

my crappy group. And if you're going out there, try to get control of society using Jesus. If

you're trying to force your version of religion onto the rest of us in the name of Jesus, but

you don't actually follow Jesus, the rest of us are kind of obliged to call you out for it with

as much love as possible. And it's not hard to do. You can take these and they'll always claim

persecution. They'll always claim it. Jesus on his last worst day didn't play victim, but they'll

always play of the persecution narrative. That's how Donald Trump got them on his side. Not by

promising to do anything Christ commands, he said, uh, you Christians are under siege. Well,

not president. You'll be first. I'll put you first. And that's a very seductive. He didn't

call to the better angels of our need or to look out for our fellow American. No, he said,

you're better. And they're attacking you. And I'll protect you and put you first.

That was his message, completely gospel free. And it's a very seductive and it's garbage theology.

John, how is your reception? I mean, you're, to me, you're a prophetic voice. Not in the Edgar

Casey sense, but in the MLK sense, you've got a very important message that needs to be heard

and you're out there. Oh, thank you. Doing it with great passion and compassion and intelligence.

So how has this been received? And since you've started, you know, talking about this book and

getting out there, it's been really, it's been wonderful for me. I mean, I, I always believed.

And again, this is my first book. I worked on it a long time and I've been a writer for many years

of comedian, but I've always believed that if it found its audience, it would land. And I've

been so humbled by the response from people from poor folks who waited weeks to get in the library

to some very kind celebrities and big shots who've given me some very kind blurbs.

You know, most of the criticism about it has been people who just don't like me.

When I read reviews on Audible or Goodreads or Amazon, it's people who don't like my humor,

don't like my tone, don't like how I sound on the audiobook. But some people don't like how I talk

about Paul, but I haven't had anybody tearing apart my arguments about Christ in this.

Their attacks are against me personally. So I understand why they feel threatened because nobody

hates like a Christian who's just been told their hate isn't Christian. But the, honestly,

I expected a lot more negativity than I've received. I was all ready to go on Fox News and I told

my publicists, I want to go out there and get tape of me debating these right wingers and like,

the right wingers did not want to have me step into their room. So hopefully more in the new year,

but I've been overwhelmed by it from people of different races, different age groups,

different economics, strata, young people, old people, queer people, and it's been very moving

to have Christians tell me this validates all my beliefs and have atheists tell me this validates

all my beliefs for the same work. So thank you. Yeah, that's quite an accomplishment. Let me

put all that together. It's just brilliant. Well, when gentlemen like you who are

learned and kind and know the gospels read my little knock knock jokes and like it, it means

so so much more. I mean, it's one thing to have a confused kid like me read it and be like,

ah, so that's what it says. But to have folks like you who know what they're talking about,

respond to the work is deeply gratifying. It's been deeply touching to read and as I said,

a lot of great law. I noticed after a number of comments about how to respond people you say,

yeah, you probably won't get invited back again, but you will be where I'm in, but

yeah, I mean, and that's true. You know, I don't think you can actually sway a fundamentalist. These

people are in a sort of cult and they've been there their whole time and we see this with our

Muslim friends too when they go really far to the right and you know, fundamentalism means you

don't think you're better than other people. You know that God thinks you're better than other

people. Fundamentalists are on the true side of the one true God, which means if you oppose me,

you're opposing God. You're representing Satan. If you oppose all of your viewers probably know

someone in their family like this, you're opposing me. You oppose you work with Satan and I'm not

going to negotiate school curriculum or what marriage is with Satan and that is the cancer that's

wrecking the world's great religions. Fundamentalism has nothing to do with Jesus. It has everything to

do with religions that control people and that's what turns people off to faith. So it's just

the response from atheists and agnostic brothers and sisters has been so I was invited to go speak

at the Freedom from Religion Convention in Myrtle Beach and oh my God, I'm telling you I'm showing up

there with my book about Jesus to give a lecture and I got 2008 theists like cheering for Jesus.

It's like there's a lot of good people out there and we've seen throughout history it takes

coalitions of Christ followers with non-Christian allies to beat back the Batchhead Christians.

And John, you've just pointed to the fact that fundamentalism is not in any way unique to

Christianity. In fact, it's one confined it to varying degrees in each of the great religions.

There's certainly certainly it was been most publicity has gone to Islamic fundamentalism,

but that's not unique. Now we have Hindu nationalists to correct religion under Modi gaining

enormous power in India. You know, there's always been a Jewish ultra orthodox etc. And maybe

to bring in the framework that John and I work with a lot. Well, part of what we're very interested in

is adult psychological development. Yes. And what's now very clear is that fundamentalism is an

expression of a particular developmental stage, which is called maintaining norms. And at that

stage, which is pretty much the conventional stage, what is really important to people is having

a clarity of understanding. Yes. It's rigid. A absolute belief that, you know, the things black

and white, black and white, they're doing it right. And a willingness, which can be both an

incredible strength and a great tragedy to really put themselves on the line, even their life

sometimes, or what are maintaining the norms. And which is, so this is, it's more than just a

perspective. It's actually rooted in a particular developmental stage in the to move beyond fascinating.

So called post-conventional psychological stage means being willing and able to really step back

and start questioning the myths, which we've been given by our culture and have inculcated.

Amen. And begin to all that last we'll wait on is it really true that, you know, my country

right or wrong or that women's places in the home law, that, you know, etc, etc, etc. And that's a big

ask. And our culture does not give. First off, our culture doesn't understand our development. So

correct. Doesn't provide any framework or motivation or institutional support for that kind

of maturation. So to a large extent, people are on their own. And it's a challenge. So

this is why I was so thrilled to be on your show because this is the stuff I want to learn more

about because and you explained it beautifully. I'm sorry to cut off, but please go ahead.

Yeah, no. So just to say that when we understand fundamentalism in this way, we can understand that

it is really congruent with that the way that particular stage of development operates.

And it's very deep-seated. It's very egocentonic meaning it's very congruent with people's

needs at that stage. And given that understanding, it makes sense of why as you point out in your book

so many times. And I just want to go back to that in a moment, but it makes a lot of sense. It's

your hard to talk people out of this. Now it's not it by no means impossible. And another thing

that's very important, which dovetails with what you say is when you attack people or critique people

at this stage, they will go into defensive mode and get even further deeply rooted in very,

very threatened and defended. You're on the side of Satan. You're on the side of Satan.

Just everything you say makes a total just fits so beautifully with this. And that framework

just adds something I think to our understanding. Roger, you're so right and you speak so beautifully

about it. And every religion has fundamentalism, Hinduism and Judaism and heck, I'm sure the

Scientologists will get around to it. And I sort of break it down in the book. I have like a,

you know, I believe that fundamentalist Christians have more in common with fundamentalist Muslims

than they have in common with moderate and liberal Christians. Fundamentalism is its own

island at this point. Stay tuned for part two of this conversation with John Fugel saying,

where we explore how huge portion of American Christians have taken Christianity and exchanged it

for Christian nationalism. Thank you very much for being a part of this conversation. We hope that

you were moved as we are moved being part of it ourselves. We'd also like to say that this is

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