Talking Dateline: Malice

Hi everyone, I'm Lester Holt and we're talking date line today in here with senior producer

Allison Orr and producer Ann Priceman to talk about this week's episode Malice.

If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on peacock or listen to it at the date

line podcast feed and then come right back here to listen to our discussion.

In this episode we'll have a podcast exclusive clip from Blaine's interview with Susan Embert

about a public Facebook post she made in the days after Jake Embert's death.

And then later we'll answer some of your questions from social media.

So now let's talk date line.

First of all, ladies, thank you for being with us.

Thank you for having us.

Thanks, Lester.

The reason my Blaine is not here, I'm sure she would love to be here talking to you about

the episode.

Instead, you get me and Ann is because Blaine is on her way as we speak and record this

episode to do what is going to be her first jailhouse date line interview inside a facility.

And you're going to see that I'm sure it's going to be great, really interesting case

on a future date line.

Yeah.

I don't know if you want to start off and just kind of give us the big picture of this

story.

I watching it.

I felt like I was watching a bouncing ball at the time.

There was so many, so many twists and turns.

There were so many twists and turns.

Things got started.

They slowed down, you know, one step forward, one step back.

But the story essentially begins in 2014 in Georgia.

A man named Jake Ember was found shot to death in his home.

His wife on the scene told investigators and the coroner who arrived that she believed

he'd shot himself in the head.

And it was very quickly ruled a suicide.

But his children, his children from a previous marriage and his sister, his family members

didn't believe it from the get go.

So what the story really became about was their long journey to find out what really happened

and to seek justice.

And through three trials and lots of mechanations through the justice system, Susan Ember was finally

convicted of murder earlier this year.

Yeah.

We should point out, this is very sensitive subject matter when you're talking about suicide

and many families and people will, you know, be surprised by someone taking their life

with their own hands.

But this family was able to really say this was out of character that this is not something

that he would do.

It just doesn't add up.

He'd been talking with the son, they were looking forward to going to car races that night.

The son left for all of 40 minutes and that kind of very quick turn seems impossible.

He couldn't flip his mood that quickly.

So this is a, I mean, this is a mystery and we've certainly presented it as such, but

it's also about a fight.

It was the fight to find out what really happened and they needed to fight from the beginning.

Rachel Ember, right at the beginning of the story, says, I need to find out what happened

to my dad.

Like that spark was lit in her, not that she thought it was a homicide, but just the

emotion that she had then that she channeled into fighting for a decade about how to bring

this to justice.

Well, in Blaine's interview with Rachel, the victim's daughter, she says, what the blank

happened, you know, not to laugh it off, but you can almost see that as the title of

this episode.

Let's go.

Well, you please say, here's Blaine Alexander with what's the belief happened?

I'll let her out of your home kind of imagine what they might sound like.

So how did the team, our team learn about this story?

That goes back to 2018.

We saw a small news article about it in the local news in Georgia.

Our producer, Christine picked up the phone, called private investigator, Lee Wilson.

The family had been wanting to talk to date line.

They had drafted, sent letters to date line, Christine went down there, met them in person.

She was immediately impressed with the force of conviction of this family and it was

very intriguing.

So we were on the story from before the first trial started.

And then after that trial ended, the appeals process began, which delayed and delayed our

production.

I mean, our production is the least of it.

The justice system was delaying, getting to answers.

And in that time, as now 2026, a lot of life was lived.

Christine, who's not here with us, got married, had two babies.

She's on her second maternity leave while we've been covering this.

I believe Will Embert got married.

Rachel Embert had a baby.

I mean, a lot of time went by and a lot of life was lived while we were making this production.

Yeah.

And typically that production would involve covering the paneling of the crime scene and

new evidence and scientific and physical evidence, yet, but in this case, the investigation

was one hour long.

It really was not an investigation.

It was a woman who made a 911 call, saying my husband killed himself.

And they came with the understanding it was a suicide, despite the family saying, wait,

wait, wait, wait, that's not possible.

You have to look this again.

And the corner arrived in about 15 minutes after he arrived.

He determined it was a suicide.

Are you surprised he sat down for an interview?

Not really.

I mean, you could see it sort of in the interview.

He's not apologetic.

He showed up early to the interview.

He was forthright.

He talked a lot.

Yeah.

And he told Blaine that he allowed Jake's remains to be cremated a day after his death based

on what information he had at the time.

I guess I was surprised at a corner didn't do their own independent investigation.

Have you come across this before?

In fact, we have come across it as an aspect of the criminal justice system.

A lot of big cities and metropolitan cities, places with big budgets have a medical examiner

who is probably a forensic pathologist or at least a medical doctor, someone who's

been to medical school.

That's when a medical examiner does.

In a lot of these rural counties, particularly in Georgia, it's an elected office.

And to be elected corner in Georgia, in the county where this man was elected, you need

to be 18 years old, have a high school diploma.

And then after you're elected, you need to take a 40-hour course in corner studies.

Now, Michael Fowler, the corner here, he did have more training than that.

He had studied more true airy science and he had many, many years working with dead bodies

in disaster relief.

So he had a lot of experience.

He had more than just a high school diploma in 40 hours.

But that is the standard in some places.

It was very surprising to Jake Emberts family, given how a corner's determination, they're

not a law enforcement officer.

That's why I think Michael Fowler says over and over in the interview, I was depending

on what law enforcement does.

It's law enforcement's job to investigate.

He looks at the state of the body, but he does the certificate that says homicide or suicide.

And that is very consequential to a lot of cases.

I mean, you know, and our viewers know that we've done a lot of stories that are the

question of suicide or murder.

So Yvonne looked for help.

She found a private investigator on Google named Lee Wilson.

What did you find out about him?

Lee was a detective with one of the local police forces for years, but he just got to work

finding records you never even think of and putting together both a profile and it was

a case.

It was a hefty, hefty case that it wasn't all circumstantial.

He did the work of a police officer, just a good old fashioned detective.

He did some digging.

I know in his Susan's previous marriages, what did he find out?

Yeah.

She'd been married three times before.

In the program, you can see Lee spoke to a couple of her husband's and they talked

about the kind of tumultuous times that they had had.

And then there was a third husband who actually, he supports her, he's in the program, but

the way that that came about was when Susan was planning to come to our interview to talk

to Blaine.

She asked if she could bring a family member or somebody for support, which we usually

allow.

We want people to feel comfortable when they come for an interview and she brought her

ex-husband.

So that's a little unusual, but then we're like, what do you have to say?

What do you think?

And he supports her.

He says she's not like that, but the other two husbands, one of whom is now deceased.

So we couldn't speak to him, but the other two husbands told Lee Wilson about some rocky

times.

When we come back, we have got a podcast exclusive clip about a Facebook post, Susan

Emberd made in the days following Jake's death.

So the biggest part of this episode is Blaine's interview with Susan Emberd for fans who

have been following Blaine's date line journey.

This was a milestone for her time as a date line correspondent.

This was her first interview with a murderer.

Yes, indeed.

Blaine was new to the show.

Remember, we got on this story in 2018.

We've been tracking the story for a long time.

And when Susan Emberd was released from prison, she wanted to talk to us.

And so she was the first interview that Blaine did with someone accused of murder.

But really significant in the story, the interview happens before Susan Emberd goes on

trial for the second time.

Let's face it, a lot of fans' attorneys would not let their client do that.

I mean, she clearly had a lot to lose, you would think.

Well, she testified in her first trial.

And her attorney at the time of our interview, her appeal's attorney, was the one behind

it.

And I think there was a lot of belief in her.

And in fact, this attorney was also one of her trial attorneys, and they got very close.

You could see that she was truly attached to Susan.

She would rubber back during the trial and hug her and comfort her.

I think there was a true belief that Susan had nothing to hide.

How did you guys prepare for this interview?

Well, you prepare for an interview like this, the way you prepare for any big interview.

Right, Lester?

You've interviewed world leaders and desparats and politicians.

You get a binder full of information from your fistidious producer, right?

You get this massive binder.

You read it.

In this case, they also had the benefit of the first trial.

So Blaine was able to review all the testimony.

And Blaine's not here.

Can we gossip about her behind her back?

A little bit.

Okay.

So Blaine, beautiful, beautiful person inside and out.

She's got a really, really big brain.

And she really studied this case from beginning to end before she sat down with Susan.

And Susan was fascinating to listen to the kind of weird contradictions, the way she speaks

or mispeaks.

And Blaine was able to just really listen and then speak for the viewer when something is

like, huh, that doesn't sound right?

Yeah, I know that one of my techniques with an interview is you don't have to beat them

up, but just ask them enough challenging questions to allow them to review themselves.

So Susan used the word ecstatic.

She used it several times to describe finding Jake dead.

Let's take a listen to that.

Take me back to that moment when you first saw Jake.

I was ecstatic.

I thought I was going to lose my mind.

I didn't know what I'd do.

So I called 911 like, I was supposed to do.

I didn't know what to do.

That's what I did.

I called 911.

Was it a slip of the tongue?

What was your read on that?

I don't think it was slip of the tongue.

I think she doesn't understand, in all honesty, what ecstatic means.

It seems to me rather strange to keep repeating it, particularly with the theory that she's

faking her staging, you would sort of check your vocabulary.

I think she thinks, I don't know what word we could guess at, but she just didn't understand

it.

What ecstatic meant?

There were some other parts of the interview that didn't make it in the show where Susan

just had details that were wrong.

She told Blaine that she and Jake had been together for four years, which was just patently

not true.

It made for a strange little bit of back and forth of it like, wait, is she lying or is

she just truly mistaken?

As they got into the rhythm and kind of got to know each other over the course of the

interview, I think it just revealed itself, but there were some other inconsistent

frequencies that had nothing to do with guilt or innocence that happened during the interview.

You guys artfully use the 911 recording in that interview, especially trying to establish

did she use the term transmitted diseases or not?

This gets back to that larger question you raised a moment ago as to understand the word

of the phrase or something else.

In her testimony and to Blaine, she said it was PTSD and I think everyone else on hearing

that did not think that because as we know, she was connecting it to him, her allegation

that he was gay, the insinuation to almost everybody is, she's trying to say sexually

transmitted, but it ended up being evidence I've just sort of an ongoing fiction being

created.

All right.

An extra sound from Blaine's interview with Susan, Susan made a public Facebook post

in the days after Jake's death and Blaine read that post to her.

Let's take a listen to how that went.

After Jake's death, sometime after his death, I want to read a post, you made some posts

on Facebook and one of them seemed to be directed at Jake's family.

I want to read it to you.

You wrote, to whom it may concern, I do not play games and I do not tolerate any drama

or negativity that comes my way.

I am way too smart for all of this.

So please back off or I will have no choice but to take necessary legal action.

I am way too grown up to spend my last days here on earth in jail.

Who were you talking to in that post?

I was talking to basically anybody that read it, but mainly, I mean, I was talking to

them.

I was just saying that I would call the law.

I call the law legally.

I do that legally.

Call the law.

If they messed with me, I would call the law.

His family?

Any?

Yes.

If they, if anybody did.

And when you say messed with you, like try to jump on me or start trouble with me and stuff

like that, are you with me?

At that point, Susan, did you know that Jake's family was accusing you of murder?

No.

You had no idea.

No.

No.

Her Facebook post was, I don't know, it feels like subtly a declaration, defiant, obviously,

but almost like the family reads it as she did it.

She's saying I didn't leave me alone, but there's another way to look at it, which is just

leave me alone and stop harassing me.

She felt harassed by the family.

The family felt lied to by her.

You know, it's an emotional time.

Everybody's tensions are certainly really, really high.

You know, we talked about Jake's children, but Susan's daughter agreed to an interview and

then she, wholeheartedly, believes that her mother is innocent.

Tell me about that.

How is she handled everything?

She's close with her mother and does not.

Just as other people can never see her as evil, as a conniving, plotting, terrible human,

she's dedicated to her mother.

Because it's her son and her granddaughter, they love, they see a different side to this

woman than many other people, and that's a really important voice to include that there's

a different dimension as far as her family sees.

So Blaine's interview with Susan Everett wasn't the last time you all saw Susan.

Your interview with her was before her second and third trial.

What was the atmosphere like in the courtroom?

It's tense.

I guess we always say that.

One of the things, there were at least a dozen members of Jake's family in there.

And one person on Susan's side, it was an aunt, Jake's family.

They were determined.

They just wanted this taking care of this done and done right, and it was interesting

to be around.

The judge in the third trial really wanted the media present.

Did you get that sense?

Oh, and she said it.

We were on a remote hearing, and she started out by saying, I was a teacher.

And one day I watched a trial, Gabbled a Gabbled, and I was so impressed with it that I became

a lawyer.

Now that I'm a judge, I very, very much believe in transparency that the public, the American

public, benefits from seeing how the justice system works.

We also get kind of a heartwarming window into the effect this would happen on all players

here.

It ends.

The episode ends with Jake's son Will revealing that he's pursuing a career in law enforcement.

That was a special moment.

Yeah.

I think we say this, but really do want to emphasize.

He's in law enforcement.

So what happened to his father and what happened with law enforcement's response does not

happen on his watch.

And we've talked about his training.

He said on suicides, on geriatric deaths, on homicides, we do the same thing.

We go on the scene, we document it, we count pills, we take photographs, we call forensics.

He's a very good guy.

Apparently he's a lot like his dad, rather stoic, but he throws out hysterical jokes every

once in a while.

Anyway, more importantly, he really sees this as a correction and improvement.

OK.

Well, after the break, Anne and I will answer your questions from social media.

So Anne, we got tons of questions.

Some date line viewers about how little evidence there appeared to be.

Here's what Lyndon Newsome wrote us on Facebook.

She says the cops didn't even bother to investigate.

Brand new officer just out of the academy had never even seen a dead body.

And he just wanted to get the heck out of there.

And this one is from Barb, Barb, Barb on Facebook.

Why don't small police sheriff departments ask for help investigating deaths?

I watch too many murder shows where small town law enforcement egos get in their own way.

So murderers get away with it.

It did generate a lot of discussion because that's a big part of the story is that quick

investigation and the experience level of the officers.

I think it honestly befuddles people why this particular department didn't call,

not just didn't call for help, but didn't have healthy skepticism that every

law enforcement officer is trained to have.

And I guess if you're going back to evidence, Susan herself giving a lot of

different statements, contradictory was evidence in itself.

Those few photos ended up being incredibly helpful.

And I think the past history with financials and some behavior really allowed

at least the third set of prosecutors to really form a, I think, a very

holistic case.

But you know, they would have certainly liked more.

And as we've discussed, the family takes the investigation into their own hands.

Here's what one viewer had to say about Yvonne and the hairbrush, this came from

Carrie Ann McComber, the sister of the man deceased.

I watched Dateline Bingo.

Let's take a listen to that.

You basically have a detective's mind at this point.

No, I just watch Dateline.

And not the first time Dateline's been mentioned during interviews.

Yvonne is a combination of tough cookie and softy and not a woman to be trifled with.

Very, very smart.

I didn't know that she was an active viewer.

It's always nice to hear that Dateline has an impact and makes sort of our work very

and extra added bit of worthwhile, I think.

It was great to hear that.

All right.

Of course, fans have questions about Susan Ambert.

Up first, this one from Tammy Lynn on Facebook.

How did she explain away the pregnancy?

What about that, Ann?

She explained it in her interview that she took a test, the test came back positive.

And then she did it again a little while later.

And it was negative.

That's how she explains it.

All right.

And finally, Pamela, if it's Gerald on Facebook wrote,

well, I am ecstatic that they got it right.

Almost every word she said, her facial expressions and body language gave it away.

That's at least Pamela's assessment of it.

I think it's, what's next for Susan is she's going to suppress and for life.

The family wants to make sure that's not the resolution for this.

There's more to do.

They don't want to happen to any other family.

I know they want changes to how a corner becomes a corner.

They would like changes in how victims are informed and included in the process, because

very often they would find things out like Susan was let out.

They'd find out after the fact or wouldn't find out at all on other things that they'd

find out through months later or whatnot.

Most importantly, they want people to pay attention to what happened with the way this

case was not investigated.

Well, and thanks very much.

It's been great to have you here.

Thanks so much for having me.

That's it for Talking Dateline this week.

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In the meantime, thanks for listening.