Talking Dateline: Take Two

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Hi everyone, I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline.

I'm here with the one and only Andrea Canning.

Hi Andrea, hey Blaine, good to see you.

We are here to talk about your episode Take 2.

This case truly has just about everything, and undercover sting hidden cameras, a murder

for higher plot, and a twist that investigators say that they almost never see.

So if you haven't listened to this episode yet, it's the one right below this one, or

you can go watch it on peacock, so go there, watch, or listen, and then come right back

here.

And when you come back, we'll play a moment from Andrea's interview with detectives

that didn't make it into our broadcast.

Alright Andrea, let's talk Dateline.

Let's do it.

This one was, I mean I think we say this at every talking Dateline, but this one truly

was, this was wild, this was all over the place, I didn't know what to expect.

Almost from the very first, second, the episode started, this one was insane.

It really was.

I mean, yeah, this is like what you call like a wild roller coaster, you know, of a case,

and it really felt like a movie.

So Andrea, just in case folks haven't seen it, or before we get into our discussion, just

kind of summarize this for me, give me a quick version of what happened in this episode.

Yeah, I mean this is about a couple Susan and Ira Bernstein, who had troubles in their

marriage for quite a while, they have three kids.

And Ira claims he's working like crazy to pay the bills because they have an extravagant

lifestyle.

Then he is reunited with a patient, Kelly, gribalook.

Kelly is a eclectic career, mortician, former mortician, model, now she's like selling

shoe orthotics.

So she comes to Ira and she says, I want you to help me with this shoe business.

They started an affair, next thing you know, they are plotting to have Susan killed.

And they went to the wrong person.

They went to Marquenzie because Marquenzie decided, you know what, I'm going to bring

you two down because this is wrong.

So Marquenzie was responsible along with the police for stopping the plot to have Susan

killed.

Ira and Kelly go off to prison, Ira comes out, and what does he do?

He starts talking about killing his wife again.

Insane.

And also chooses again, someone who does not want to be a part of this, a landscaper.

He's like, no, thankfully, Ira picks badly for assassins.

So let's, I mean, let's just break down everything that you just said right there.

One, this is such a different type of date line episode because there is not actually

a death, right?

We're talking about two murder plots, but they never actually come to fruition, thankfully.

And I think a big piece of this is thanks to Marquenzie.

The first time around, right?

Like the fact that somebody comes to him and says, hey, do you know how to kill somebody?

I mean, some people could have just said, no, I don't know how to do that and just gone

about their business, right?

Not gotten involved with the police to try and bring this person down.

It would be scary to, you know, if someone's serious about that.

Also, Blaine, would you be like a little offended if someone thought that either you could

kill someone or that you have friends who killed people?

I feel like, wait, is there something about me?

Like, why are you picking me to either, you know, oh, well, I think I thought about that

with Marquenzie because he, and you asked him, you're like, why did you say something maybe

that made her think?

And he said something like, oh, if you're not happy, like, we can help her.

I know someone who could take care of something like that, but it was a rather large leap

to get to things.

So, and, you know, I've got to know Marquenzie a little bit, you know, through this story

because now, you know, I re-interviewed him and he's such a nice man.

Like, he's really, I just found him to be really sweet.

He's a father, you know, he's, he, for me anyway, he's not somebody that I would like,

first instincts, peg to be someone who's going to find me a hit man.

Right.

Right.

He seemed, I was really just struck by how much time he spent trying to bring this case

down.

There were so many meetups.

He had to have his car wired.

And then you said, not only did he go and meet up with her repeated times in these parking

lots, he had to go meet with investigators like 45 minutes beforehand.

So we're talking about a dad of kids, like, that's a big chunk of time to kind of devote

to.

It was a lot of work.

And not only that, he's really putting himself in danger too because if these people

are willing to have someone killed, you know, now you're messing around with people

capable of murder, right?

And then there's that moment that everyone, I feel like, talks about with this story

and it's that moment where Ira turns in the car and he sees a camera or something.

He's, was that a camera?

And it's like heart pounding, right?

Because you're like, oh my gosh, he's about to figure this out.

And Mark Enzi, thinking on his feet, is like, oh, it's for the kids games or whatever.

And Ira totally buys it.

Mark Enzi was brilliant, by the way.

He was the right person for this.

I mean, there are multiple times when he really thought on his feet, you know?

He did.

And also like, it shows you like, I really really doesn't trust his gut.

He sees this thing and he's on the right track that something's amiss, but he ignores

his gut.

He's like, oh, well, maybe it's fine.

It's fine.

You know, I have to say you describe this as a movie at the beginning.

This is maybe the first one in a while that I can remember that I really felt like I

was watching a movie.

Like I had that kind of pit in my stomach or like that kind of nervousness or like, oh

my God, what's going to happen next is he going to get found out.

And that was just, I mean, that was present throughout almost the entire thing.

Yeah.

And I love hearing it from your perspective as someone who's seeing it for the first

time.

You know, because we get so close to our stories and this is the second time I've done

it because we had this major update.

So for me, I know everything that's coming.

So I love hearing it from you, you know, as a first time viewer to really feel those like

twists and turns.

And I mean, imagine being Susan, you know, we talk about this like, oh, it could be a movie

and, you know, all these twists and turns.

But like, poor Susan, you know, just, she had a target on her back twice.

And I, I, the fear that you would have, you know, looking over your shoulder and going

to sleep at night and it's real, you know, a target on her back from her husband, mind

you.

I mean, that's just at the worst feeling.

I want to, you brought up a good point.

I want to kind of like bring in for our viewers who don't necessarily know how we do our

stories.

And we are always so busy with our stories of our own at many different times.

But a lot of times we don't know what each of us has going on, right?

So a lot of times it's a big surprise for us too.

And I have to say that when I was watching just the previews in the very beginning, I knew

that it took place over some amount of years because I saw your hair change.

I watched, I saw the difference.

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

And I, when I had, this is when I had to watch it again, I was like, oh, I'm sorry,

oh, is that good?

Is that, is that bad?

I'm like, you know, you just kind of have that like, what was I thinking?

I don't know.

I mean, it's not the worst, but I think my hair probably is better now.

They were not, they were not bad at all.

It's just one of those things that I feel like you and I only have and like the guys don't

have to deal with when they do stories over the course of however many years there has

ever changed.

So yeah.

Exactly.

No one could tell, no one could tell.

But in watching it, that was kind of my first tell of like, okay, this took place over

in a amount of time.

Can you just talk a little bit about what it's like to follow a story for that long and

then have such a major update as you had in this story?

Yeah.

And Blaine, I've had date lines with multiple pregnancies.

That's how many years are passing.

Yeah.

What we talk about hairstyles, but let's talk about babies too.

It's just interesting how like things change, you know what I mean?

Like so many things change, but you're still on the case.

And in this case, when our producer Lynn Keller told me that Ira was accused of trying to

kill Susan again, my jaw dropped to hear something like that.

It's like, what the, what are you thinking?

And then when I confronted him at court for the sentencing, for the second one, he says

to me, like, you know, I asked him if he wanted to stop and talk and he says, why would I

talk to you?

You screwed me over the first time, paraphrasing, I can't remember exactly what he said.

But like really, I screwed you over.

How about you screwed yourself over, buddy?

You can never get inside the minds of folks, but the interview was very fair.

Like he gave him a chance to say everything that he needed to say.

He got his sign out.

I mean, look, you know, we, we are journalists.

We try to stay neutral and, you know, unbiased, but I can honestly sit here and tell you,

Ira considers himself like a victim forever.

He is always the victim, right?

He blames other people for everything.

It's just he, everybody, even what in his sentencing, and by the way, funny story about

the sentencing too, I was sitting there in the courtroom and I'm, you know, I'm kind of

on my phone waiting and just looking at my phone and someone like passes me or whatever

and I honestly was like really engrossed in like something I was reading.

And I look up from my phone and I'm in the front row and I look up and Ira's sitting

right next to me in the courtroom.

What?

Yeah, he's right beside me.

It was just so weird and I, we both looked at each other and he had, did he say anything?

No, but he had already made that comment like outside going in, you know, and something

else as, as he was actually, we were waiting for him obviously at the courthouse, right?

We knew his sentencing was at two o'clock.

And I, I see these two men walking and I'm like pretty far away, but I was like, that's

not Ira.

Like those are like two attorneys or something like there's no way that's Ira.

And then I see Logan, our associate producer, running and I'm like, okay, wait, Logan

knows something I don't.

Like what?

Wait, guys, go outside now, like Logan's running.

So we run outside and then I'm looking and I'm looking and I'm like, I actually have

pretty good eyesight from far away.

And yet I still don't know.

And it was Ira and so different weight.

He had dark glasses on.

He was, his, his two pay was gone and they were like scrambling and, you know, he comes

up and, and then of course he made his, his nice little comment to me.

Sorry, I got off track because, oh yeah, I was talking about him being, you know, playing

the victim because even in, in his statement, his, in during his sentencing, he blamed

the landscaper that it was all the landscaper's fault.

And I'm thinking, what, I, you know, take some responsibility.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When we come back, we'll hear a moment from Andrea's interview with detectives that

reveals another shocking idea investigators say Ira had for targeting Susan.

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You know, I think what's you, you talked about his victim mentality, and that was so apparent.

That was so apparent, really from the first moment that we heard him speaking, because

I was just floored at the way that he described Susan, like, oh, she's lazy.

She doesn't do anything.

She just takes care of the kids.

I'm the one who's out here working.

I'm the one who's keeping up our lifestyle.

And I'm thinking to myself, like, this man has a very low understanding of just what

it takes to raise kids.

And what it takes to keep up.

So, you know what I mean?

Being a stay at home.

Like, the whole thing was just so he had such a clear contempt for her from the very beginning

before we even knew what his role in all of this was.

Absolutely.

And you, you just hear in her, through her words, the pain that it caused her, you know,

the fear that she lives in, like, with 24 hours a day.

I mean, she just said, she basically said, like, you destroyed our life.

It's life that we had.

And he did.

Divorce is hard enough on children, but not just divorce, but then dad's trying to kill

mom.

And it also shows that he didn't learn his lesson.

Right.

So even after he gets out of prison, especially after it's like, okay, might he come back

for a third?

He's not somebody who is easily dissuaded from this thing that he wants to do.

The judge called it mind-boggling.

The judge said that he was confused.

How someone could do this.

I think we all are.

Why would you do this again?

Yeah.

Yeah.

There were a lot of twists in this one.

I mean, in addition to just that, in and of itself, but let's talk about Marquenzie.

When you sat down and talked with him, it was clear that you all had such a great rapport

that you really got to know each other well, but that he had this kind of sense of, I just

want to do what's right, no matter what.

Did he ever get a bit, give any sense, like, was he nervous during this process?

Like, just kind of what were his inner thoughts being part of this?

Yeah, he seemed pretty cool about it.

He just has kind of a laid back vibe to him.

So there really was none of that where he's like, you know, I thought my life could be

over at any moment or it wasn't, it was, he's pretty cool under pressure.

I was going to ask where, if he was still selling cars, or there were just so many skills

of his that came out that he really good at, undercover war for so many other things.

I know, maybe he should have like become a private investigator or something.

Yeah.

He's still, he's still in the car business.

It was good to catch up with him again.

Of course.

Let's talk about just this notion of an undercover operation, right?

I mean, the wiring of the car, the having to meet up, the realization, I think what was

interesting is that he could walk up to the line, but he couldn't do too much because

he couldn't, you know, try and convince them to do something.

How fascinating are those staying cases to you?

I know that you went undercover in an episode yourself, right?

Oh my gosh.

Yes.

Wow.

A long time ago, my gosh, yes, I was pregnant for real, and it was an adoption story.

And it was myself and an AP who both pretended to be pregnant to meet with this adoption lady

who worked for an adoption agency.

And I was trying to basically sell my baby, and I was saying, you know, what if I'm using

drugs?

Do I have to put that on the application?

And she's like, no, you can leave it off.

Oh my gosh.

So that was, I was nervous, though.

You want to talk about heart pounding?

My heart was pounding during the adoption undercover.

I was like, yeah, like the thumb, the thumb, the thumb, like, and she knew, though, what

was interesting, kind of just like Ira, you know where he, he was, his instincts were

sort of like halfway there.

This woman, she was halfway there.

She knew something was up.

Interesting.

Wow.

I'm curious what happened with that.

Well, we ended up telling her we were from date line, and she got up and she like went

away, like went to her car.

And then the crazy thing is though, she actually came to New York and did a follow-up interview.

What a wild story.

Wow.

So I know that for me, just watching undercover operations on TV in your episode in movies,

I get nervous.

So I can't imagine actually doing one of those.

I mean, it really was heartbreaking, though, because she, people were being promised

children.

And what is Lane, where moms, like what would be more heartbreaking than you're expecting

to get, you know, your child to bring your child home.

And then this woman, after years of this scene, and then this woman is saying, oh, sorry,

they chose someone else.

Meanwhile, it's all a scam.

You know, it was, it was really, that's why we called it a hope and heartbreak.

Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Well, this, I mean, people should go back and watch that one as well.

Yeah.

So let's get back to podiatrist.

Let's talk about Ira himself.

I mean, we talked about him a little bit, but the, I think the funniest thing, I actually

laughed out loud when you revealed that he was the official foot doctor, official podiatrist

for the police department.

I mean, and both of these guys had been patient, and like, and the meetings are happening

like in the parking lot, like next to the police department, it's so funny because the

morning, our original show aired, I, so I was on another date line where I'd injured

my, like, ankle foot, getting out in a snowstorm, getting out of a police car, and it just

wouldn't heal.

So finally, I broke down and made an appointment with the podiatrist.

And it happened to be the morning that our show was airing.

And so I took a picture with the podiatrist and like, put it on Twitter.

And I accidentally, this is so bad.

I accidentally called him Ira Bernstein in the, in the, in the Twitter post.

Like, I just, somebody, like quickly corrected me, but I was like, oh my gosh, sorry, like

right?

Right?

Like, please don't suit me.

I messed up.

Just, this is the normal good doctorate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's hilarious.

What a coincidence for a timing.

I know.

For your appointment timing.

Oh my goodness.

Let's talk about Kelly, the dynamic between Kelly and, uh, Kelly and Ira, but just Kelly

herself, right?

I'm, I'm curious what it was like for you to sit down with her.

I don't even know how to explain her.

Like, it, I've never met anyone like her where she did such a bad thing.

And then it was almost like, it wasn't that bad or something with talking to her and

also her loyalty to Ira, where, you know, she's like, no, we're in love.

And this is happening and he's like my guy and, you know, and then he makes her sit in

jail for four months.

Well, he bails out in like four days or whatever, right?

It was strange to me.

I mean, a number of things, but one, just watching her be the one to kind of be this, I,

I mean, she was like his shield, right?

Like, she acted as his protector.

And she was kind of like, well, we just need to be sure and, you know, clearly she was

one sticking her neck out and he was kind of, you know, saying in the background, but

just this notion of like there's the successful, clearly very well off doctor.

And she's the one doing all of the dirty work, right?

Yeah.

It's so wrong.

I know.

And she was so in love with him.

But she, from what I understand, you know, from her attorney is really trying to get

her life back together and, you know, her relationship with her children.

I think she's hopefully learned her lesson.

If Ira hasn't, hopefully Kelly has.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then let's talk about Susan.

I think the thing about the story that just at the very end, when we finally heard from

Susan, but that she asked even in the courtroom that there were no cameras on her.

That just broke my heart because I just thought about gosh, what this woman has gone through

and to just try and hide, right?

Like she hadn't asked for any of this.

She really summed it up in her victim impact statement, what her life has been like and

how horrible it is for her, for her children.

I mean, there are so many pieces and so many different people in all of this.

Let's talk about the landscaper because he was somebody who, again, kind of going back

to this kind of trail of people who just have been wronged in some way by Ira.

I mean, this is gentleman who lost his business essentially or the control of his business,

right?

Right.

And Susan actually called not only the landscaper, but Marquenzie, her angels, you know,

for saving her.

And by the way, Susan and Marquenzie are friends, which is really cool.

But the landscaper, yeah, I mean, and I said to the detective, I said, like, doesn't he

watch Dateline, the landscaper, like, why would he want to get into business with someone

like that?

And she said apparently he knew and Ira told the landscaper that it was all Kelly, that

he got sucked into this thing because of Kelly.

And so he, again, is a victim.

And so the landscaper trusted him and then got burned.

Gosh.

Yeah.

Let's talk about, there is an extra clip of an interview that you did with the detective

Peggy Braddock that didn't make it into our broadcast.

But I want to listen to a little bit of it here.

She kind of describes this conversation that Ira had with that landscaper we were talking

about, sitting around drinking wine, eating cheese, and I refloated this idea.

I mean, just the whole thing is just so outside the realm of reality.

Let's listen to it.

And as the conversation went on, they started talking about things that weren't involving

business.

So they were telling some, you know, funny stories about their childhood and their past.

And the landscaper told a story about a friend of his who was, I believe, in business with

somebody and felt he had been done wrong.

So when this person was driving, he called the police and told him that this person had

drugs in their car and they were stopped and were ultimately arrested for having the

drugs in the car.

So Ira said to the landscaper, do you think we can do this to Susan?

So as they were talking over wine and cheese, he says, well, my wife drives an Audi and the

landscaper says, well, my cousin, a distant cousin works for Audi and he's like, well,

you think he can make a key and the landscaper is like, well, how do you do this?

He's like, what does Susan do?

And he's like, well, she goes to book clubs.

She goes to cooking club and the landscaper is like, what are you crazy?

And who's going to think that a woman who goes to book club and to cooking club is carrying

a kilo of drugs in her car?

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard was wrong with you.

And he just puts a kubash on the conversation.

So plant the drugs in Susan's car and have her arrested.

It only escalated from there.

It definitely escalated from there.

But it just shows that even back then, he was still thinking of ways to the wheels to

get to his wife.

The wheels returning?

Yes.

Wow.

He's like the widely, what is it, coyote?

You know, that like that keeps coming back like the bad, um, with your clothes, you know,

and I should say Blaine, we're laughing because they're of the absurdity of some of these

things that we're talking about and hearing.

It's not funny.

Susan, this is her life.

This is not funny, but it's hard not to laugh at moments of the absurdity of Ira Bernstein.

It just defies reality, defies logic, right?

It's outside of the realm of what anyone would ever think that another human being would

come up with.

Yes.

It's like hard to imagine them sitting over wine and cheese and being like, let's plant

a kilo of drugs in her car.

Yeah.

You know, I think that one thing that that really stands out to me about this episode,

and I recently, I just a couple of weeks ago, did a talking date line with Keith on his

murder and magnolia's podcast series.

And it was the same thing, this plot for hire to kill someone that fortunately never

came to fruition.

I am just stunned by how easily people can sit around and kind of hatch these ideas or

talk about the notion of killing someone, paying to kill, I mean, it comes so easily in

these discussions.

And it's unbelievable, really.

It is unbelievable.

Because like number one, you have to be willing to take someone's life, okay?

But then, then you have to think about what if I'm caught?

Yes.

I'm going to go to prison for the rest of my life and what will happen to my children and

all these different things.

And then you still think it's a good idea still going to all these things.

And the dumbest thing about murder for hire is that now you're involving another person.

This person that you bring or people that you're bringing into this plot are not going

to turn on you or tell someone else or like, that's a lot of trust to a place in some

way.

Truly.

Truly.

Well, there was so much in this episode and coming up after the break, we will answer

some of your questions from social media.

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As you can imagine, we have lots of social media, comments, questions, thoughts.

We can go through a few of those.

My favorite part.

I love hearing from our faithful viewers.

Well, listen, as you can expect, people had thoughts about this episode.

Lots of thoughts.

So let's go to the first one.

At Rayford 512 asks, was Kelly a real mortician that did embalm or did she just spell caskets

at the funeral home?

Great question.

When I asked Kelly about her role as a mortician, she went to school, learned how to embalm,

but she didn't actually do embalming because I guess because of the Jewish faith, they

do not embalm.

So she had the skill.

She just didn't put it in practice necessarily.

This is from Fran Mackin.

Okay.

This is a good one.

I would have liked more discussion on his comment to Andrea questioning, why would he

talk to her slash date line again after what they did to him the first time?

Did he feel he was portrayed badly, edited badly?

So he never said he just kept walking and I kept, you know, calling out some more questions

to him and then he was gone.

And then even when I was sitting next to him in the courtroom, nothing, just silence.

Nothing.

You know, only Ira would know what he is upset about thinking there.

Okay.

Here's one from Jamie Walsh Honeycutt.

I know the doctors make a lot of dough, but his wealth seemed even more beyond that.

What's the full story where did his money come from?

Did he come from money?

I'm not sure what his family situation was with money, but he had different centers,

like foot centers and he also, if I recall correctly, was buying properties like real

estate.

Okay.

So I think the money was coming from different places, but they lived in a beautiful house

on a beautiful property.

I have to say when I first saw that aerial shot, like the early, early in the episode,

I said, oh my gosh, like what is his, what's this person's story?

Right.

Yes.

That goes far beyond any just normal doctor wealth.

Yes.

And they had a lake, their own lake.

I mean, the dog, I mean, it was quite the estate.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm curious.

Aside from, I mean, his prison and the divorce, did Susan get any other money from him just

like a financial kind of penalty for trying to have her killed?

Susan sued not only Ira, but I resistor as well for damages, and that is unresolved.

Okay.

Got it.

Here's a question from at Penny Pumpkin 33.

Love it.

Right.

Was Mark Kinsey getting paid to help with this investigation?

I hope so.

Not that I'm aware of.

I think he just did it because he wanted to help and save Susan out of the goodness of

his heart.

Yeah.

And here's one.

This one's for a comment.

It's from at Eric T. Persor who writes, wow, how do you get two easy sentences for attempted

murder?

I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing.

Ira never actually pled guilty to conspiracy to commit murder.

He pled guilty to tampering with evidence.

And so there's only so much prison time that comes with a crime like that.

It was different from the first time around.

It was a trickier case.

Yes.

I think a lot of people would agree with that one.

Absolutely.

Well, Andrea, this was a fascinating episode.

I mean, a case you followed for a long time, and it was just really, really just interesting

to watch.

So thank you so much.

And thanks for talking Dateline with me.

Thanks, Blaine.

And that's it for talking Dateline this week.

Thanks so much as always for listening.

Remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can always DM us your audio

or video questions on social media at DatelineNBC or you can leave us a voicemail on the telephone.

The number is 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here on a talking Dateline

podcast.

And don't forget to listen to Josh's new podcast, Trace of Suspicion, available now

wherever you get your podcasts.

And you can get early access to subsequent episodes and listen ad-free to all Dateline

podcasts by subscribing to Dateline Premium.

That's all for us now.

We will of course see you Friday at 9-8 Central on Dateline on NBC.

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