Talks to Luke Sims-Jenkins about his choice of Earthshock (2/4)

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Hello everyone and welcome back to a hamster with a blunt pen knife, the Doctor Who commentary

podcast. Wow, I did that without stuffing it up at all. Wow, today we're going to do part two of

Earth Shock. I'm Lixins Jenkins and I'm your co-host with Mr. Joe Ford. Say hello Mr. Joe Ford.

I thought I was on the Mar and Chess Club. What's happening? Yes, we're going to be talking

some Peter Davidson. See, I've been on other podcasts since I started the Mar and Chess Club and

almost all the time it's been a different era of the show and then you message me like,

look, you want to watch Earth Shock? Yes, I should be so refreshing for you to watch something

with Peter Davidson in it, you know. Well, we had a wonderful time of episode one,

though, didn't we? I mean, what a cracker of an opener. It's great. It's fast paced. The

Tata scenes do have, does have arguing, but it also has like a purpose. It has like a smoothing out

with Nisser and Tegan kind of softening like the other two. And so that's like a, you know,

a nice bit of kind of foreshadowing dance. All right, so Adrix is going to leave. You don't know

how yet. It's going to be, it's going to go out with a bang. We know that. So yeah,

yeah. And it goes out. It's got creepy tunnels, wobbling rocks.

Adrix, smoking corpses, desiccated hands and cybermen.

Destroy them at once. What's unusual is there is a very little world building in that first.

Now Doctor Who usually will get straight down to the world building, usually with a couple of

sets and a lot of words, right? I think it's like a reboss operation. I think it's like a snake

dance, you know, the world building starts from the first scene. Whereas EarthShock is,

it's an action movie. It just, it's suspense. It's pace. It's, you know, constantly moving.

Now we do get a bit of world building later on to create the, the drama of the scenario,

this great conference against the cyber race and all of that. But kind of that's just word

peril isn't it? Like really, the important thing is, is the action in this.

Yeah, I think a new series episode would at least kind of cut to some kind of preparations being

made. Here's a draconian aid talking to the prince of draconian or something. Here's another

room with Alpha Centauri or something like that. You know, things like that. And you know,

just to kind of make us care. Yeah, we don't even know like, all right. So he's there to protect

Earth, you know, Lieutenant Scott and, and, and, and he's cronies. But like, the tenant of what,

like Earth military, like what, what branch of it? Like, who's you seeing in the office? Like,

you might get a line in another story like a general Georgeson, you know, send us here to investigate

what happened to you archaeologists. Professor Kyle? I mean, where's she from? What institute?

Why is she ticking up dinosaur bones? We don't know. I don't know if she even knows anything about

dinosaurs because she never gets to prove that she knows anything about dinosaurs. But, and it is a

big but I don't care for this story. I am so happy that the story is so focused on the moment,

rather than the sort of the extraneous details. And that's why it's so gripping because you're there

in the moment. You're running through those caves, you know, being attacked by them. You're there

as that bomb is about to go off. You're there as those silos burst open and the cybermen come out.

It delivers so much incident. It just doesn't matter, I don't think, for once.

Yeah, no, I agree. There's always a really fun, kind of crazy pace to this that I really like.

And I think Saward keeps it up, at least with resurrection of the Daleks, absolutely for sure.

I think in a way, he does it with, uh, revelation. Finally, he had, uh, you know, more

colon and, uh, and Nicola in the action. Then, uh, I think it would have kind of mixed better.

I still love it, but, you know, that there is that criticism. But, you know, say, what do you want

to bet his stories? They're pacing. They're all pacing. They're all passive. Yeah. And like,

there are plows in this. Like, I was sort of thinking about it. I don't know what it makes us.

Actually, why are they doing that? They're like, I was just, but like, that's me thinking about it

afterwards. When I'm watching it, I'm never thinking about that shit because, you know, I'm that

god that's trying to get into the TARDIS. And suddenly the cyber man leaps out of nowhere and

grabs around the face and she screams a red-off and dies. You know, I'm Professor Kyle

reaching for the console door, being shocked to death. You know, like, well, those things are happening.

Look, it's a fuck about plot logic and things like that. I think resurrection,

resurrection is hampered by the fact that, I mean, scene to scene, it is still really gripping,

but it is hampered by the fact that there are so many plots in that. Like, which one am I in now?

Now, where is it in this? There's just one plot, right? We need to figure out who's murdered

the people, which leads us to the bomb, which leads us to the freighter, and the freighter then

is heading to earth. It's very linear. Where is resurrection? It's just juggling so much. You're like,

hang on. Where are we on earth? Who are those dupe? Well, god, you know, this is simple. And I think

if you're going to do an action movie, keep this in poor. No, I agree. I think a lot of

a lot of the plot holes and stuff, I can overlook because I just like how this story is

pasted. I like how it looks. And it doesn't matter that this holds in the story. I believe,

I believe, Dave Owen is like, I believe Janet, I believe Scott, you know, I believe the wonderful

lady from other shows that I don't know who didn't know what she was making. What is it?

Beryl Reed? To me, she just looked like an old lady, I would say at the shops, that had like

old lady hair, but she was a captain. And I was like, all right, that's kind of cool.

My nano could have whipped people in the shape if she, if she, I was a captain of a ship,

if you're a fucking walking stick and she'd wax people and listen to her. So I believed her,

I still do to this day, even though everyone's mentioning all this kind of stuff. So

my nanisterto Luke, right? She had a best friend called Sissy, okay? And she was this

madly eccentric old deer, right? With bleached ginger hair, like crazy, like Bill Reed in this,

that sort of crazy ginger. And she had a little budgerie car that she used to teach to swear.

She'd be there going, I know you know, I'm only like six years old, so it's the most hilarious thing

I've ever heard. So I see this crazy old woman going, say shit, Penny, say shit, Penny, like,

every time I say, Bill Reed in this, I think of Sissy. And she was a pissing as well. And

forgive me, but the way Beryl Reed says some of the lies, this is your men on the walkway,

miss the ring, Wade. I mean, she sounds drunk. She reminds me so much of Sissy, honestly.

She wants a bonus. She's fucking drank the bonus. She's definitely one of those of those

era of, all right, we're going to the pub after we shoot, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen Moffitt says it in the documentary, right? He says, if I can get a famous celebrity in a

small row in one of my Doctor's stories that is going to get me a headline or just some attention

from the right people that are going to watch it on Saturday, you bet I'm going to do it.

It's like he totally endorses JNT's decision. And I don't think I really don't think JNT makes

a bad move with his stunt casting. Like I think all of them, even if it's not the person that

you would imagine in that role, there's something interesting about the choice.

I think it can pan out in ways you don't expect. Like I think it was Rouse, like a hindle,

a bit of stunt casting at the time. I was known for doing the kind of thing that he has to do in

Kinder, things like that you've got. The older guy, he was more of those. Yeah.

Austin, he was the movie actor. I think he was like an Oscar winner or a nominating or something like that.

And obviously never shoes, you know, X-Line Bird.

And one of my favorite roles of the year was like Peter Winger in Clown of Fire as well.

That's even cooler because like he'd been in the doghouse for a while and JNT is like,

yeah, I don't care about that. He's a great actor. We're going to put him in Doctor Who and he was

amazing. My single favorite bit of stunt casting from JNT is Brian Blessed. I just think that was

the best he ever did. That scene. Well, what is that love? It's amazing.

It was, it's never a surprise to me that a lot of these actors did Doctor Who because I feel like

it gave them an opportunity. I mean, I know Brian Blessed had lots of opportunities to play

crazy roles, but even still Doctor Who has always been that opportunity to do something

different. How many times was Bell Read given the opportunity to play a freighter captain who

treats who he can't have to be a trainer, but treats her employees like,

shit, just for a bonus. You know, like, she should never get to play like a character like that

again. So, Runeway, right, is so like the whipped gay subordinate, isn't it? I mean,

that's exactly what he is. Oh, mom, he's going. I think that relationship is great. She is

just horrible to me. It's a shit. See, I really like burger as well, because burger should,

like, he looks to, he looks to burgers to say like, wow, what a bitch. And burger's just like,

having a fuck up. Really? I like, it doesn't just have one point. Try not to be so earnest or

something. You know, you're too easy to mock. And do you know what? People like that. They

knew that advice. I know the people that take themselves far too. See, I mean, there was a

great line in Canberra of Skewerer. I was reading the other day where they talk to me.

Oh, don't mind Sabber, if you know, it's very hard when you when you take yourself that seriously

and nobody else does. That's exactly Runeway. Yes. Well, look, I mean, we've got a CSI

bomb squad to watch. We've got cyber men bursting out of silence. We've got Beryl Reed to see.

I mean, are you ready for this excitement? Yes. Yes. I'm ready. Excellent. Excellent.

Well, shall I count us in? Absolutely. Okay. Well, I'm ready in three, two, one. Excellent.

Well, we go. I'm going to start doing my countdowns now as one, two, three, four, five,

like Ambrill and snake devs. The sixth phase of solution is the where reserve, you know.

That's probably the idea. I don't think you'll say it. So I will say this is the greatest

theme tune of Doctor Who. That's a toughy. I mean, I'm not sure I can even call it.

I do. For me, it's hard, no one McCoy, but I can see why I can see why.

Yeah, Kevbacala is my second favorite as well as well. I like how different both of those are

two. Oh, Jay and T's, look, he said, go back a bit. I want to see those smoking clothes again

at the start of the episode. That's a great show. They're just like there and there's no

to smoke coming off them. That's really cool. So what did those hand explosions do then?

They must liquefy you or something. What are the hands made out of that they don't, they don't

melt? Well, they've got to be hydroids. They're made of a durable material. We call it

Cyberanium. That's what would happen if the Terraination had created the Cyberman.

This is the single best POE shot, I think, in all of Doctor Who.

But it's just the way it sort of goes around as well, you know, like they're sort of like trying

to focus in. Oh, don't you love those. The fact that you can see the silver jaws in the Cyberman.

Yeah, I look, I don't mind the like moon based versions. They're fine. They look kind of cool,

but I like it when you can see some of the real person underneath. Tenth planet is a great example.

Even the ones from the invasion, you might not be able to see their faces, but their arms and legs

felt like they're real arms and legs, you know, like it's skin type. You know, I'm going to throw

a massive compliment at Davison to the detriment of Tom Baker here, but one thing Davison does so well

is brings a sense of energy and urgency, right? He knows when he's got our talk fast and like

make it look like the situation is life and death, yeah. Tom Baker, go look at 619. I mean, he

wanders around most. I would love 619, don't get me wrong, but he wanders around most of those

stories, absolutely confident and a bit bald. You know, like there's no real moment. Think of

moments like this in 18, where the doctor sort of desperate and really, you know, like everyone

take this seriously, we're all going to die. That's I'm just thinking of like the doctor in the

leisure, I'm just kind of casually strolling. I'm stro all past all these guards. He just walks

for a nose cloth. He's like, oh, how july, you know, whereas watch Davison in a minute when he's

out the bomb with Adric, I mean, that could have come from fucking CSI. It's so pacing the way he does

it. He's calling out for the tools and he's doing stuff in the bomb and he's explaining the plot,

you know, it's so fast. So that's the other thing, like, a lot of people will

celebrate that Davison. Oh, he's his kind of wear and all this kind of stuff. And then I watch

like, I watch Earthshot and he's fully in the forefront of most of the action from the moment he

gets out of the TARDIS and including in the TARDIS at the end, where they're so many have encroached

the safe space of the TARDIS. So here's a big part of all of it when you think about it, if he

hasn't, if he didn't land here, the side men would have been successful. So it's not one of those

stories where, well, if the doctor hadn't landed, the same things would have happened.

There's far less than those some people will let you believe actually. There's only a handful.

But even when he's not the fusing bombs, even when he's not running around the freighter like

a lunatic, yeah, even when he's still, there's a wonderful shot. I can always remember where

something's happening on the bridge or Briggs's, you know, Briggs's bridge with the side men.

And then the camera pans over to a console and down and you've got Adric and the doctor

leaning against it and he's got his hands up like this and you can just see his brain going,

you know, even when he's not moving, his brain's going 10 to the dozen.

You know exactly the shot I mean, don't you?

Yeah, he's got very fast acting like he's the one doctor that I can imagine

because he does it instinctively. Because he seems like such an impatient doctor all the time

and very frustrated. So it amazes me that he can like do intense,

thinky brain and also get into a Zen meditative state with a crystal in no time at all.

Those he lives in the moment this guy slow motion, exploding Android heads,

what the coolest thing I'd ever seen when I first saw this.

That was the right move. It was a cool explosion. Slow it down, milk it,

doctor who doesn't get to milk like that cool stuff like that as much as I'd like to admit it does.

You know, I've just realized I think I think I know.

I mean, I don't think Matthew Waterhouse was a particularly adept actor at this point, right?

I think there are absolute flaws in his performers, but you know, he can deliver a scene

sometimes when he's with a good enough actor. He's a really awkward physical actor.

I think that's his problem. Did you see him crawl in over those rocks? He looks so awkward.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you not do like kind of dance or movement or something like that?

You compare it to something like Sarah's acting school too where they kind of make you walk

at it like a long an army trench or something. You might be in a cop show one day. Do this.

Sarah Sutton is so composed in comparison. I think Sarah Sutton has flaws as an actor as well.

I do think she's rather wonderful, but she wasn't really given the opportunity. She could have done

but look at her. She's pushed on her rock now. She's very comfortable.

See, I know there's not a lot to say about Nissa as a whole in this, but I would just like to say

how many companions get to do cool tasks? Things like be trusted to pilot it from here to there or

she kind of loads up that android. She knocks out the fosters. I mean, she takes out about 15

time lots of knock-off infinity. She's a cool bitch. Oh, yeah.

Definitely wouldn't mess with it. Look, it's like it's happening around Jesus.

I like David since acting before as well, like getting towards it to

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, like you've got to do that stuff in Doctor Who, don't you?

Oh, I love the wash out effect there as well when the bomb is exposed.

I just think it's like the bomb no believe it. Discover it. He knows how to capture the moment.

Doesn't he? It's a way that a lot of directors in the 80s, they can't always get the moments

of drama in the way that you should. I know Peter Grimmade wanted to direct his baby,

which was time flight, but I'm really glad he didn't. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I would have

lied to have seen that. I mean, you wouldn't have been as absurd as it turns out to be.

Oh, Christmas boys, why can't you have stayed on?

Now, I don't wish to alarm you, Luke, but I must inform you because we are going to see

lots of long shots of them that the cyberbums and cyber crutches are so beautiful in this story

that when they're marching about, I will be a bit hot and bothered, okay, just to warn you.

That's, that's, that's okay. Why do we have to watch a season 19 story then? We could have gone

to season 21 with the leather manuscript. Excuse me. Look, you've got beautiful Janet

Field in here, Sarah Sutton, Professor Kyle. You're not exactly short-changed. If you like that,

you got buried. I like, uh, Jenna must feel the relief of being able to get changed in this episode.

Instead, it's like one of those military garbage bags are all wearing so much. But at least it's,

do you see this? It's cut, cut, cut, side man console, bomb. The doctor in the TARDIS,

side man console, bomb. I mean, there was about eight cuts there, and that's not how Doctor Who was

short at this point. So when you, when you think about the cybermen, they're supposed to be

these cold kind of calculating monsters. But when you look at a lot of stories before Earthshark,

most cybermen stories, they'll either be more in the background, or they'll have like a human,

more of a human kind of cipher, like a vorn or something like that. I, all right, sure,

might take some of the cyberness out of the cybermen, but I think it was a really,

I think it was a good touch. What I have to say, was he was his choice to give them a bit more,

a bit more personality. And I think it, I think it works. I'm giving it to David Banks as well.

Really gets to the heart of the performance. And to me, you can always just say, like, you can

always just write it off with a line like Uncle Terry and just say that it's a, it's like a parody

of human performance, you know. It's like rules, man. What is wrong with these people that say,

oh, right, this race of people, and these are the rules. No, some of them were sabotaged slightly

less than others, and so they'd still got human. I mean, it's called Revenge of the fucking cybermen.

They were hardly emotionless in that story. What are the cybermen? What revenge? What? Why?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Man, Davidson is so good in this scene. I mean, he's making that fucking dreary prop look like the

most dangerous thing we've ever faced. It looks like just someone just bolted on a few bits and

bombs on again. Oh, get over asked them from the 80s, which the way he sort of, you know, he gets

burned by the coil when he comes away. Look at his face. He's like, shit, we're going to die

any minute now. Pass me the laser spanner, I drink and stop being a useless come. Come on.

That's right. No, look at the backup plan, which is then going to earth.

Oh, extreme close-up as well. And look, he ain't afraid of that camera, is he?

You got that face. You don't mind the close-ups.

A lot of the thing that Davidson said to Peter Grover, come on, come on, go a bit closer, come on,

I can handle it. Yeah, even on Blu-ray, like, you know,

don't you always love the fact that you have like this stupid cyber lieutenant as well, you know.

Oh, yeah, it's like he's first day on the fucking job being the lieutenant to the cyber

leader. He didn't download any of the freaking data packs and stuff like, hey, what's up, bro,

I'm a new cyber lieutenant. Like, how do you like things run? What do you like as a commando?

We are great fun with that one before the five doctors didn't we? Oh, I have found the ones

from the TARDIS. The one from Attack of the Side Man is so useless.

In my these particular games, yeah, exactly. The doctor had a line there as well about,

remember we were asking about how powerful the bomb was? It was a great line as well.

It goes just enough to make life deplorable for those who survived. So, okay, it'd be a big bang.

Yeah, and then you'd get the cyber men coming back to earth to kind of mop up survivors and

kind of cyber rising, I guess. Oh, you know what, Luke, I know that object.

That's right. And maybe you should get your bioscanners work. Oh, no, you don't have those.

There was a shot there that worked like you just would never have today, right? It was the

start of this scene in the console room where everybody was lined up. Oh, so they were all in

shot because there's a massive group of people. And then all of a sudden, they all start moving

about, you know, they've obviously got their marks on the floor and all of that. You just don't

shoot TV like that anymore. No, you do not. I do want to give props to Tegan because both in this

and the visitation, there is some very short distance and a tiredness driving by people

and she doesn't get, oh, fucked off big that they could do that. They couldn't get it a bloody

Heathrow in the 80s. So, dude, I know this is kind of fanwank and this era will kind of

grow with a lot of this stuff, but as a kid who hadn't seen lots of Doctor Who at this point,

stuff like this montage here with the previous meetings with the Simon Men, the moment where you get

a bit of history with the Brigadier and stuff and more undead help. Just the existence of the five

doctors itself, you know, just those kinds of things where tangible like visible nuggets of

old Doctor Who I could watch rather than, you know, just old photos in a hanging book or

and things like that. So, I think it's something you can do every now and again. I wonder if by

the time you get to like, resurrection of the Daleks when it's cycling through the companions,

you're like, okay, we're doing this again. This time, I mean, it hasn't been done before.

The more genuine undead one is a real, is a brilliantly directed character moment as well

of him remembering all that stuff. And you've got a resurrection with the companion montage as

well. That's the one I'm just like, that feels a bit frail way and like, it doesn't feel like a moment,

you know. It's like, oh, well, the fans like this stuff. Let's do it again. Let's put it in.

But the new series is every now and again, like that wonderful moment at the end of the 11th hour,

you know, which cycles through all the doctors and then he steps through.

I think the new series has shown more strength in that type of stuff than, you know,

what the best one is. There may be the niche markets that Prud make a lot of talk to his stuff. So,

yeah, the best one is the timeless children when she blasts the matrix with her whole life.

And you just see flashes of all the Doctor who. Oh, my God. Wonderful. Yeah, you hurt me,

everyone. I said the timeless children. Now, you're preaching to the choir because I remember watching

Jody's era and thinking, uh, this gives me Davis and vibes. Maybe not in terms of

commenting like a blond, amiable doctor. Yeah, maybe, uh, full of energy and bounce. Yeah.

Lots of companions, a companion that stays for the entire era. Yeah. Yeah.

And and all that kind of stuff. And I was never worried. I know, I know people would say like,

Ryan didn't do anything this week. This week. Yes, didn't do anything this week. And I heard on

a podcast that might even be have been you on Untodd or Sartre project mentioned that, hey, uh,

you know, like next generation, like no one complains that Riker didn't have any lines this week

because it was a data centric episode. You know what I mean? There's like, there's 20 of these.

And like, again, they think Doctor who's got rules. They think it's got to be a certain way.

Everyone's got to have a massive cut of the pie every week. No, it's malleable. Yeah.

Do you see this? We, we cut to the freighter and, uh, and, uh, they're smoking their cigarettes,

aren't they? So what loves them the smoking cigarettes? Dude, I was having this conversation with

Dylan Reese watching Resurrection and Alex that I'd never noticed that lady in the background

smoking before. Oh, she's wonderful. And now all the instances are smoking, uh,

are plopping up into my brain. And that, that was not one that, uh, was, uh, pointed out to me,

I think, earth shark. We've got the fellow who gets, uh, his neck sucks by the mutant. He's

having a slight fag in the where else. Isn't there, uh, a photo or something somewhere of David

Banks or something like Cyberman of this era with their helmet on having a smoke?

But it's so, is there anything more Eric's award than cutting to that freighter and you've

got two people sitting there smoking, being really cynical about it. I'm so joy in their lives.

I say this in a, in a, in a good way. I reckon, because like, hey, there's worse writers than

Eric say would on bike seven. I reckon, but Eric say would probably had at least a,

uh, it's a really, really solid, um, upper mid to Blake seven episode or two. In it. Oh,

for sure. I mean, he would have written the most exciting Blake seven episode you've ever seen.

It would have been full of action. Terry would have loved it. Like, yeah. Yeah.

Don't call me mom on the bridge. Seven hours I've been waiting. It's so great.

He was waiting seven hours on set too. If you watch the behind the scenes,

well, that's taking so long. And what the fuck is happening now? What, uh, what, uh, sensible

television producer would have done would have hired in another very capable cynical actor.

And all of these scenes would have been so dull. You bring in barrel read and suddenly the light bulbs on.

Yeah. Wonderful. Like, even without knowing much about, uh, who's what her career is or anything

like that. I know she stands out in terms with like, everybody else. I say in a standard doctor

who's story. Like, she pops. Look, barrel read pops. Yeah. So, uh, it's great. She, she, she was,

if it bleeds, she'll bust all the patrols. You're beginning to bore me. I love, I love that line.

You're beginning to bore me. Look at that. Now they look down over at the silos and it cuts to

a fantastic model shot of the silos. That is a fantastic shot. It even could have just been a

nighttime shot of a dockyard or something, you know, like, I may have been lauding the lighting

in those cave sets, but in a minute where the doctor and that are wandering around those silos,

they're some serious movie starlight in there. I think in some ways, that's what kind of,

that's the kind of vibe that J&T was tapping into. Uh, and that's why people smile is my

very, now I feel like a lot of 80s sci-fi or action movies. Yeah. I do. Into the video,

so all the time to rent just those kinds of movies, uh, then watching this kind of doctor who,

even with like this really, you know, kind of dap a polite charming doctor doctor in the forefront,

it kind of fits that vibe. All right. Sure. It doesn't have terminator production values, but

it's got dudes melting. It's got killer cyber robots. It's, it's got everything.

I hate this sci-fi though, right? Yeah. It's, it ain't my, you know, metal corridors with,

you know, shadows moving and military men and cynical people, but it's Doctor Who, right? So

you're right. You put in the perfect English gen in the middle of this. You put in barrel reading

the mad eccentric performance in the middle of this. You, you make one of the robots.

That's, you know, overspoken polite, you know, this is excellent news, you know, and all of a sudden,

all of that sort of brutal masculine sci-fi becomes so much more interesting. Yeah.

If it wasn't Doctor Who, I think this would be interminable, but because it's Doctor Who,

and it has all of these wonderful flourishes, it becomes so entertaining.

I've said it on the book club many a time, like, Doctor Who will do genres that I just don't

give a shit about, like City of the Dead, which is like an urban fantasy novel,

it's set in a modern day of when that book was published. I only care about urban fantasy and

magic and stuff. I love that book. Oh, that isn't bad. He said,

through that Hayotic Eighth Doctor into that world, it's wonderful.

Like, I like Fairytale World and Green Reality, and like, just a kind of romance aspects that

have been some of the books that we've covered that, I don't know, like, yeah, it's a little

magic. This is a different angle, angle of that for you. This is not your genre, but because

it's Doctor Who, it works. Yeah. Well, I think on the other level that this works is just so well

executed. It's so well done, and that impresses me no end, because they had no money. They had

fuck all money to make this. It looks like it had four times the budget that it did. It does

make me think that had JNT been given a reasonable budget for a science fiction show in the 80s,

given the talons a wingtrain budget. Yeah. He would have spun absolute gold out of it. He got

that model shot in trial of a time. That amazing Lanzarotti footage in Planet of Fire, you know,

and he had no money. I think it's impressive. It's so impressive. Like, people really come down

hard on this era, but like, the more I listen to your podcast and the more I explore it myself,

I just think there's so much to be impressed by. I've now, it hasn't all been me just

I think gushing about me loving every aspect of it. I think it was also through an episode with

you that I did discover that when I have to put my analytical brain on, all right, I do have to

admit there is one boring Davidson story and it's Ark of Infinity. Even that's not your goal, no.

And that's got it's a calm bacon like being awesome the whole time. So

and he's just a game. Paul needs a plot of the star. Come on now. Let's fix that. I like this.

Oh, we ended. Oh, yeah. Did you notice the shot right with the two corpses right in the

front? That sound effect of the two guys going, that's the stage with me. Not in terms of like

my nightmares or anything like that, but sometimes they're a doctor who sounds you can just think

of a shot. It sounds like a barber shot. Oh, I got killed by a cyber man barber shot for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this is such a great story. Like I've been saying there's a lot about

plastic. I like I'm coming to this weird conclusion loop that I'm sort of all of it is comfort

TV for me now all of classic who know about what I'm watching. But I think this is something quite

special. I think they got they did that unusual thing. I've getting the right writer at the

right time. The right director. And that is where a lot of media he's doctor who falls down is when

it isn't the right director. Um, the right musician, all the right actors. I don't know. There's

just a bit of magic here, I think. I think when you're going for it in terms of doing what you

came with production and also you stunt castings and all things like that, it can go right like

earth shock and it can go wrong. Like what is the date with time flight or something like that? You

know, and look, I love those stories. But and I mean, I say I love them the same way I like the

out of water menist, you know, like it's it's fun. And I'm just going to have a laugh in a good time.

And I never used to be able to do that about Dr. Ruth. Me, I was I take Dr. Who seriously kind of man.

And then I don't know, man, like, then I kind of put it in my head. Like what are my go-to stories

to watch if we're not talking David? I'm like, what's your favorite Tom Baker story? And if like,

you know, Andrew to Tara is up there for me. Like things like that. I love my serious stories,

but I like I've found all right, that's not a bad good example of trashy Dr. Who because that's great.

But I found that I kind of like going back to like I know underworld and other stories. I don't

know why I have mileage some of those. I think I think that era should have just trusted its

lead man because columns right. And we're here. We approved right when he goes to big fence. Sorry,

I've done this in the last few because there's overlap with the say wood era of of Davison and

Colin just by doing my own chess club. I have, you know, watched a bit more rewatched a bit more

23, 22, 23 than I used to. Because usually if I'm in a column mood, I'm going to be finished because

that's how he wanted to play it. And I don't know. But I love this warts and all. And I kept that hat on

and watched Colin. And it kind of worked for me. You know what I mean? Is that sound weird? I know.

Not at all. Not at all. I mean, I do think I think there are

flaws in the Davison era. I think there are moments where the money lets down. I think there are

moments where they've gone for safe directors rather than really good directors where the music isn't

as atmospheric as it could be. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Now I would like as a financial

exercise to hand somebody like Delimation, a producer of television now. I'd like to hand him the

equivalent amount of money to make one of these stories to produce something science fiction,

exciting, pacey with set pieces with celebrity actors. Yeah. And I want to see what they would put

on the screen now with the same amount of money. I'm almost willing to bet it would be

worth production values on the Blair Witch projects. I need to make a point here.

As we get along in society, everyone's got this thing off. We need things to look as good as

technology allows them to look. I just think like I love this old game called Fallout 3. And in

18 months, they came out in Fallout New Vegas and they've got the same kind of crappy graphics they've

always had. And I go back to those games because I don't care that they look good. I care that it

plays great and the story is awesome. So I was always like that. Like, all right, I like my 10

episodes of Strangely Worlds every season. But you know, they look beautiful. But if you want to

slash the budget in half and make it look like T&G and give me 26 episodes, fuck yeah, let's go.

You know, like, I don't, I don't need it to look like the best thing I've ever seen in my life.

I need it to be good. And it's not always the same thing. If that, you know, like,

trouble is, I don't think you and I are representative of the audience. They

television watching. No, they expect style oversubses. They expect the look rich.

But I was listening to Toby the other day talking about Marco Polo. And it was a wonderful

moment of his commentary where he's talking about what is clearly a very fake backdrop outside

Kubla Khan's palace showing the rest of the fabulous city, you know. And he goes, and if you're

the sort of person who who will ignore the fact that you've got superbactors saying rich dialogue

in a fascinating story with beautiful sets and gorgeous costumes and wonderful music.

And if you can say, oh, well, that backdrop looks really fake. And that is enough to spoil it for

you. It goes, well, it goes, I'm very happy for you, but I also don't want to have a conversation

with you. And that's exactly how I feel. Yeah, you got to know what you're, you kind of

involved with. I feel like anyone watching Classic Doctor Who now should know, like,

it's once and all that the test failed is. When you can say about a shock, you know, they've

got moon boots on and that those stickcases clank, you know, and clearly it's not metal that

the side men are ripping out of in the silos and all of that shit. But do you want to enjoy

it, Ellie? Like, do you want to enjoy what you're watching? And, you know, I'll say it again,

this is pretty sophisticated stuff for the money that they had. It's impressive.