TCC Podcast #290: How to Grow Your Copywriting Business through Systems, Processes, and Mindset Shifts with Linda Perry, Jonnie Stellar, and Tamara Glick

Check out the episode or read the transcript below.

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Copywriting Income Survey
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Linda’s website 
Jonnie’s website 
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Sign up for Typeform

 

Full Transcript:

Kira Hug:  Okay. So, we are going to kick this off with our special guests, all of you, and I want you to just introduce yourself by sharing of course, who you are, but your role in the Think Tank. What you’re doing in the Think Tank to help the members and maybe share a credential or two. Just brag a little bit about why you’re so incredible at what you do. So, let’s kick that off with Linda.

Linda Perry:  All right. Thank you for having me on. I am Linda Perry. I call myself a success strategist these days, and really what that means is that I combine the tools of mindset and some business strategy to help people bust through some of their blocks and take their business to the next level. I joined the Think Tank really to be that mindset coach to help people really bust through some of the stories they tell themselves so that they can actually achieve bigger goals and do the things that they set out to do. And so far it’s been a pretty new role, but it has been a blast. And one of the things that I think makes me really good at what I do is I’ve worked with hundreds of business owners in different areas, but I have an ability to really see where those blocks are quickly and allow people to really implement the tools they need to move past them.

I like to think of what I do as sort of this active learning lab, and part of what I love about being in Think Tank is that it is an active learning lab. They get to see in real-time how their blocks are standing in their way and really work toward taking steps. This isn’t like therapy. This is really about taking actual steps that allow you to grow and become that person that you’ve always imagined in your head and achieve that kind of success you want.

Rob Marsh:  And I should add, Linda, because you didn’t say it, but you have worked as a copywriter. You’ve built a six-figure copywriting business in the past. You’ve been through all of the copywriting trainings. And so not only have you built a business like so many of the other people in the Think Tank, but then you also bring the mindset approach. And so you know where the struggles are because not only have you coached tons of copywriters through them, but you’ve been through them yourself.

Linda Perry:  Oh, yeah. That. I forgot about that, right? But it’s true. I think I’ve seen every single kind of block as a copywriter, and I think you guys have seen them with me, and it’s really been helpful to really see the stages and allow people to identify them in a much clearer way.

Kira Hug:  Let’s jump over to Tamara, one of the first coaches we added to the Think Tank. We call you our Cruise Director. Tamara, can you introduce yourself?

Tamara Glick:  Hi, I would love to. Hello, I’m Tamara. I am a brand stylist and marketing strategist. I joined Think Tank, I think my year was three years ago now because I was really trying to find a way to bridge all of my interests and see if that actually even made sense and started coming in as being a copywriter and wanting to give up the styling side of my history and left the Think Tank in a totally different space where I was able to combine both strategy and styling together in marketing overall and branding overall. So, that was my personal journey. And it was while I was in the Think Tank as an active member that it became really clear to me how important the relationship part of Think Tank was. Not just the individual coaching, which was absolutely pertinent to my development, but also the community around me. And it became a real interest of mine to find a way to create a better closeness or intimacy between our live interactions with each other, and that’s how I became the Cruise Director.

Kira Hug:  All right. Thanks, Tamara. And Jonnie, who are you?

Jonnie Stellar:  Who am I? I ask that to myself every day. No, thank you so much for having me. It’s awesome to be on the podcast again. I specialize in what I call the unsexy essentials. So, those are systems, processes, and tools. And I’m so happy to bring that into the Think Tank to help the Think Tank members kind of create more efficiencies in their business. That’s building the systems, growing and leading their teams, and copy chiefing. So creating a little bit more white space in their life to achieve more of that elusive work-life balance. So, work less and life more. So, really what this all translates to is ending unnecessary suffering so that’s what I’m hoping to achieve in the Think Tank. And some of my humblebrags are having a hybrid career. I’ve been in the industry for about eight years. Half as a freelance copywriter and consultant for small brands in the personal development space. And then, the other half was spent as a copy chief and also head of creative for boutique marketing agencies. Scaling teams of two into teams of 10 and that included both designers and copywriters.

Kira Hug:  Okay. Thank you. So, we’re going to jump into your Think Tank experience to start this off. I’m just curious because you were in at different times and all had different experiences in the Think Tank, what impacted you the most and impacted your business the most from your experience as a Think Tank member?

Jonnie Stellar:  I want to say that we were actually, I believe, there was some overlap in cohorts, maybe, but I remember Tamara and remember Linda being in my class. So, it’s really cool to kind of be here united with everyone again. I might be mistaken, but I think that it’s kind of come full circle. It’s exciting to be a coach in the Think Tank and know that I got so much of my training from being in the Think Tank. And that’s why I’m here. So, I know a little bit of a meta look on being here, but I think that what really stood out for me being in the Think Tank was the confidence that grew just being around other writers, copywriters who were struggling with the same things that I was and knowing that I wasn’t alone really helped me be okay with where I was at in my business. And that I wasn’t the most successful and I wasn’t the least successful, but really just being there and having that support to step outside or take a leap of discomfort into my discomfort zone was really fueled by the support that I received in the Think Tank. Not just by the amazing coaches like Rob and Kira but also the other members. So, that’s what stands out for me the most.

Kira Hug:  And Linda, what helped you the most?

Linda Perry:  Well, I think I was in cohort two, and I actually joined the Think Tank and stayed for two years. And I think the things that really stood out for me; I’m going to start out from the perspective of a copywriter, was how much there was for me to learn about business growth and how many opportunities you guys provided for learning about copywriting from so many different angles. From the art of writing to the actual practice of it. And then just the comradery and support from other copywriters. I think we were all at a little bit of a different phase for our business around the same time, but we all had different steps we were taking, and there was just such massive support for finding really what was your own. And I will say that my copywriting business grew to six figures within that first year, but what ended up unraveling and something that I really love about what you both do is allowing the person to come into what is their own. Finding that sweet spot of what you really want to do.

Linda Perry:  And the truth is I love copywriting. I’m still my own copywriter. But what really ended up evolving was allowing me to actually step back into mindset work. I was a coach prior to ever becoming a copywriter, but step into it in a way that felt much more my own. And oddly enough, you guys foster that in a way that was amazing. And so I feel like I love email writing to this day as much as I love coaching. And it all really came out of being in Think Tank. So, it was really a great experience.

Kira Hug:  And Tamara, what about you? What type of impact did it have on your business?

Tamara Glick:  Well, as I said before, I thought that when I joined Think Tank I was going to go in as a copywriter and I was going to leave an even stronger copywriter. When in actuality, the course of my career shifted it felt like a couple of times during my membership and I wasn’t the only one. And I think it was really permission-giving to be in a mastermind where you have the opportunity not just to grow in an expected direction, but also a lot of opportunity to explore the unexpected. Even before, particularly I think, before coming into entrepreneurship, I thought that there were titles you were supposed to have, careers you were meant to go into. When I became an entrepreneur many years before Think Tank was even a twinkle in your eyes, I started to see that wasn’t the case and I was happier and on my terms much more successful going my own way.

So, when I started going into copywriting from being really only style-focused and prior to that marketing-focused, and then so I was moving three careers in when I joined Think Tank, I kind of was going back to that mindset. If I was going to be a copywriter, I was going to be a copywriter. And that’s what it was. But being around and amongst a group of people who were all supported in exploring very different ways of approaching a career that most people think has only one facet was super permission-giving. And it allowed me to look at my career in ways I don’t think I would have been comfortable or supported in doing without Think Tank.

Rob Marsh:  So, I’d like to ask each of you some individual questions about some of the skills that you bring to the table. Maybe starting with you, Linda. When we started talking about having you join us and coach, you pointed out that a lot of the stuff that we’re doing in the Think Tank really needs to be supported by mindset work. And Kira and I do a little bit of that, but clearly not at the level that you have. What are some of the hangups that people have along the road to whatever it is that they’re building? Whether it’s a six-figure business, whether it’s launching courses or their own products, or even just changing up what they’re doing. What are some of those stories that you mentioned that we’re telling ourselves that we’ve got to unwind in order to really succeed in what we’re doing?

Linda Perry:  They fall into different categories, but I think at the core of a lot of this is this belief that I’m not good enough, right? Or I don’t know enough. And so what happens is that we end up forgoing our own power of thought, and we give it away to everyone else. So, we think that we have to be building a business that mirrors someone else’s and we really give up our own intuition, if you will, and our own gut check and think, okay, I’ve got to do what everybody else is doing. There’s this groupthink mentality. And one of the things that I kept noticing is that people were doing things without really understanding whether it was even aligned with their vision.

And so one of the first things that I’ve done as we’ve walked into Think Tank is let’s get clear on what you want. Let’s reconnect you to something that feels really powerful, a vision that you have so that some of these beliefs that start to creep up, whether it’s I’m not good enough, I’m not smart enough, I’m too old, I’m too young, I’m not capable, we have all these stories, right? Or even especially around pricing. I’m not worth that. I’m too new. All of these stories start to dissipate once we anchor into what it is that we actually want. And so I kept seeing that over and over because, we share some clients, that people were really not allowing themselves to go deep enough to see who they really were and what they wanted. And so I think that’s really an opportunity for copywriters that we’ve been able to start to offer within the Think Tank by combining our efforts.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I totally appreciate that approach too. Jonnie, your background is copywriting, but also you built an entire copywriting team for an agency. You’ve built systems for hiring. When it comes to systems, teams, that kind of stuff, what is the stuff that you see holding copywriters back?

Jonnie Stellar:  Yeah. So, of course, this is going to be kind of through a systems lens. I think the very first kind of barrier to building a nice successful team is having systems period. So, it’s such an easy project to sideline and put off because you’re so consumed with taking on new clients and client work and being involved in those types of things that fuel your business, but the systems are… So, I guess you can put them off. It’s just always in the back of your mind, and that’s where they live, most of the time, systems, right? It’s in your head. In your mind. So, that’s not technically systems. If they’re not written down, they’re not really systems. So, really just devoting, carving out some time in your schedule to piece by piece write out your systems. That’s kind of step one and struggle one.

Also, I see a lot of copywriters struggle with is kind of trying to do too much and take on too much by themselves. And they kind of struggle to let go and delegate and ask for help, and they’ll hit burnout, but before they hire out or outsource, so really asking for some extra support is where people struggle a lot too. And really, once they hire out or bring on another part-time copywriter or contractor, they have that handoff anxiety. So, really trying to control every aspect of what they produce, their work, but are they going to do it as well as me? That’s the question that’s happening in the back of their head. Am I going to have to rewrite this whole thing? So, really making sure that you have a solid vetting/interview process, hiring process, with that copywriter, with the potential copywriter, and also being confident in your systems enough so that “outsider” can come in and do the work without any more context or with little to zero context. So, that’s why those systems are so important to build out in the first place before you start hiring out.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. When you talk about handoff anxiety, I can relate to that. Everything… It’s so hard to hand off stuff to other people and to build those systems, but pretty critical for building a business. Tamara, you get to see people’s businesses almost from another viewpoint. You’re kind of like the big sister in the Think Tank. The person to talk to or you can go to with almost anything that’s going on. What are you seeing as you talk with other copywriters, the struggles that they’re having, and what can they do to overcome them?

Tamara Glick:  I really do have, I think, a very special position that I’m honored to hold in that kind of big sister or confidant space where it’s kind of a combination of those things and offering different insight from a 360 perspective of our members’ businesses and how that can impact their lives and vice versa. So, often, for me, it is about recognizing the entirety of an individual and all of what they’re experiencing right now. Not just in how they create their business or how they find their clients, but what that means for the rest of their day or the rest of their night or how it impacts their weekends or the stress that might come with that in their relationships or how to handle situations that they’re emotionally too close to be able to see very clearly. So, for me, it’s really about being an outside source of support.

That is, I suppose, soft skill-based. Because oftentimes we can get to a point where we think what we need to develop in terms of skills is technique in our writing or technique in our onboarding or those areas that are more of a hard skillset where a lot of what happens when we own businesses and when we grow businesses is we need to be able to manage the human side of ourselves. And as a business owner, our client relationships, our relationships with our team if we’re growing a team. So, that’s where I get to see people grow and support them.

Kira Hug:  And maybe we can dig into the how behind what you all shared as far as your specialties and what you bring to the Think Tank. So, let’s start with you, Tamara, to help create that holistic experience for Think Tank members. How are you doing that as a Cruise Director? How does that actually show up in the Think Tank in a way that’s actionable in a way that moves the needle for Think Tank members?

Tamara Glick:  Uh-huh (affirmative). So, a lot of it, I think, might look behind the scenes in the general scheme of say, our Slack channel because it will be one-on-one DMs. It will be one-on-one coffee chats and conversations. And it often can be bridging the gap from that one-on-one private conversation to helping that member feel empowered to share their experiences more broadly with the membership as a whole. More often than not, if somebody is struggling with something on their own, there are at least five other members who are experiencing or have experienced that same kind of situation. And we may not feel brave enough to share it in the larger group if we’re not yet weighted into the group or if we’re very private, to begin with. And so there are times where a conversation will remain one-on-one in private, and then there will be times when I may encourage someone to share more broadly in the group to get the support from their peers that they’re really in the Think Tank to get.

We work on our own so much as digital entrepreneurs that the community side is something we really, really need and often we really lack. So, actionable things for me are knowing our members on individual levels so that we can celebrate things that if you were in an office setting, you would automatically celebrate a birthday, an engagement, a win in your business, or a vacation you’ve been waiting to take. Those kinds of things are where the community side can really thrive and where the relationships can really deepen. And that’s a lot of what I do. And then, on the other side of it, it’s understanding what our members need more of and bringing it back to our TCC team, to you, Rob and Kira, and to our internal team to help support our members and evolve the Think Tank in the ways that suit the current cohort best.

Kira Hug:  And Jonnie, for you, I know this is a newer role, and we recently brought you into the Think Tank as the systems and growth coach, so we’re figuring it out, but if someone were to join the Think Tank and work with you and really need help with their processes and systems, how are you set up to help them in the Think Tank?

Jonnie Stellar:  Yeah, I love being so accessible to the Think Tank. Slack is kind of where we keep our conversations and communicate. And I’ve had so far in the month and a half that I’ve been on board, I’ve had people private message me about, just an example, was someone needed to have a very difficult conversation with one of their copywriters and we were able to talk through it and she took away some really, really good action steps that she’s currently implementing. And I’m kind of eager to see how that manifested, but that’s just one example. Also, I’m on Slack every day. I check it every single day. And having that systems channel there for system-specific questions has been super helpful as well. Actually, before this podcast, before we started recording, I typed in, I think it was last night or this morning, actually a bullet-pointed of all of the main takeaways from the group coaching session that we just had last week, our first systems call.

So, that was really cool. And, of course, all of these sessions are recorded, and you can watch them at your own leisure so that fits anyone’s schedule. I always really appreciated that. All the sessions are recorded. And then just general conversation inside the Slack channels. You can just really feel the relief through, I guess, the interweb. You can feel the relief that this kind of support really brings. And even just knowing that you have these coaches to lean on provides that extra mental support just knowing that if you struggle with a certain problem, you’ll always have someone to turn to.

Kira Hug:  And, Linda, for you, mindset can feel so overwhelming, and you can feel so alone when you’re struggling with your own mindset and then also scared to share in a group setting. So, how are you helping Think Tank members with mindset currently?

Linda Perry:  So, like Jonnie, we have a mindset session once a month. And I think what surprised me during the first session was just the willingness of people to share. And what ends up happening is we do sort of a group coaching environment, but it’s to people’s comfort level. Everything is held within the group. And I think that’s been very special so far as everybody really is respectful. And what happens too, is everybody learns that we’re all the same. We all have the same head trash that’s coming up. So, for example, we did that in that group session, but I also get to look like Jonnie talked about in the Slack channel. So, this past month people were sharing, I think, Kira, you had asked what is everyone’s enneagram and what resulted was this a little bit of confusion about what the enneagram is and so next month during our session, I’m actually going to share what the enneagram is and how you can use it to actually grow your business, build a team, understand how you want to work.

So, these things are kind of naturally evolving, and I’ve also had people come to me one-on-one in the Slack channel saying, “Hey, I’m stuck here. Can you help me work through this?” And from time to time, I’m going to offer some of the things that I have. I have a rich library of tools. And one of the tools that I have shared with Think Tank is my vision program. And I think I got some great feedback already from somebody saying this should come with a warning label, but it’s going to excavate things you haven’t thought about in years. And we’re just combining some tools pretty organically and seeing what it is that the group needs at this time.

Rob Marsh:  So, this might not be a fair question for you guys because we’ve only had you, Linda, and Jonnie coaching for the last month and a half or so, but what has surprised you the most about your experience? So far the copywriters that are in the group, and again, you guys have also been through the Think Tank as members before coming back as coaches. So, I’m just curious about maybe some of the differences that you’re seeing. Jonnie, do you want to kick that off?

Jonnie Stellar:  Yeah, absolutely. So, there is a very wide span or spectrum of copywriters and not just copywriters. We’re talking about strategists; we’re talking about business growth people, biz dabs. There’s a range; there’s a garden variety of Think Tank members. And I love how diverse everything is. And there’s something for everyone really, or someone to relate to for everybody. And I love that about the Think Tank. So, their skill levels are kind from just starting out as a creative agency of one to building a team of 10 to 15. So, being able to see both sides of a copywriting career or a marketing career has been amazing. There are so many takeaways and so many just amazing things that you can learn from these copywriters and from these business owners who have varying levels of experience. So, that’s the first thing that stood out to me about the Think Tank right now.

Rob Marsh:  Tamara?

Tamara Glick:  Yeah. I’d agree with Jonnie. There’s such a wide variety of business types and business owner types in the cohort that it’s really fascinating to see how everyone can share their perspectives on a business problem that another member may be having and help them to work through it from a totally different perspective. I really love being able to lean on that and hear from different people’s viewpoints because everyone’s experience is so vast and varied. I think also it’s a tremendous opportunity for people to build their networks of support when we go into business for ourselves. Whether we grow a team or we remain on our own, we’re never going to be able to do all the things. And it’s really helpful to see and to learn from people that we know we can trust because we know their integrity, we know their skill set, we know their dedication so that when it comes up in conversation with a client that they may need support in an area that we don’t serve and we don’t have the intention of serving, we have a group of people that we can refer to and that can refer to us.

Rob Marsh:  How about you, Linda?

Linda Perry:  So, being part of, I think, one of your early cohorts, I thought we had the best group, right? 

Kira Hug:  Of course, right!

Linda Perry:  And we had the best of you because we were small, and we were intimate and we were all so close, and I’m still friends with so many of the people in my cohort. And I think what surprised me is how supportive and how active they were with each other in the Slack channel and how willing they were to be there for each other. Even in the mindset session, they were like, “Yeah, let’s talk about this stuff.” And it’s a bigger group. And I was like, “Okay, this is pretty cool.” And I think that really surprised me and stood out that you guys have cultivated something that existed in group two and can now still exist to this day, even on a bigger platform.

Kira Hug:  I want to shift a bit and talk about visibility. Many of our new members, not all of them, but many of them struggle with visibility and showing up and being the face of their business. So, I’m wondering from your experience in your own business and then from working with so many copywriters in the Think Tank and other platforms, what do you think separates the copywriters who are overlooked, maybe overshadowed, or at least feel that way, from those copywriters who seem to be everywhere and everyone’s talking about them all the time. What is that difference? What starts to help the first group shift into the second group if they choose to do that? Linda.

Linda Perry:  So, visibility’s just one of my favorite conversations because I think that we all want to hide as copywriters behind our words, right? It is so much easier, and it’s so necessary. And I think Matt Hall a few years ago was like, “Linda you just need to get out there more. You need to market yourself.” Right? And I think that the difference really is not so much are you showing up on social media, are you being outrageous, are you being anything like that? It’s about being intentional and knowing what it is that is your own specialty, what you are good at, and really building the relationships that will foster your growth. It’s not so much about who’s loudest, but it’s really about staying consistent, being loyal to your audience, to really offering something of service. Those people who are visible are also not scared to give. And so I think those are some of the things that separate them out, and it’s not introversion versus extroversion. This is one of my favorite things to say, there are a ton of introverts out there who are killing it with visibility. It’s really about a willingness to know your purpose, make an impact and share it.

Kira Hug:  And as a follow up to that, Linda, if someone’s listening, they’re like, “Okay, I’m struggling with this.” What would you recommend they do as a first step to move forward?

Linda Perry:  It’s really in terms… Well, I always say get clear on what you want. Get clear on your vision because it gives you the power to get over your BS about I can’t do this, right? When you know the impact you want to make, it is so much easier to step over the stories you tell yourself about how I’m not good at this. I always tell the story of how I was terrible at speaking. And I used to shake and take beta blockers when I was an attorney, but it’s really standing in the “be.” Who do I want to be? It’s imagining yourself there so that you can start to step beyond all the lies you tell yourself about who you are now.

Kira Hug:  Jonnie, what do you think separates those two groups?

Jonnie Stellar:  Yeah. So, self-promotion hasn’t always been my favorite thing about being a copywriter. Visibility, being seen. But I think the one thing that stands out in my mind, and ironically enough, Mike Kim said it in a TCC podcast. I’m not quite sure what episode it was, but it has completely embossed on my heart and my mind since then. And that was courage first, then confidence. So, courage comes before confidence, courage to really put yourself out there. Confidence is relative. Confidence is something that you build once you get some momentum going and once you become more competent, but I really do think that courage-first mindset and the willingness to go out and do the scary things really helped me, well, say yes to speaking at IRL this year. That was really, really intimidating for me. But every time that happens, I just repeat that over and over again is courage before confidence because confidence could take a while to generate, but courage is always at the ready.

Kira Hug:  And Tamara?

Tamara Glick:  I love what Linda and Jonnie have said. Courage and willingness. And I think that to get to both of those things, you need to make a decision and a commitment. So, it can be really challenging to consistently have the courage, to consistently have the willingness. You need to decide that that’s going to be a priority. And maybe you decide that it’s not. There’s lots of business owners who are very successful who don’t choose visibility in the ways that we are very familiar with it right now. They choose it in different ways, and they may be more heart-to-heart or belly-to-belly instead of social or speaking. There’s lots of ways to choose your visibility, but the decision to be visible needs to be made over and over again so that you can build up the courage and you can build up the willingness to persist in it.

Rob Marsh:  Jonnie?

Jonnie Stellar:  Yeah. Just echoing the courage over confidence philosophy. Just go in and do the thing. And I know it’s hard to kind of tackle the inner gremlins that are telling you that you’re not good enough and you can’t do this, and you don’t know what you’re talking about. The imposter complex. All the usual struggles. But yeah, just really echoing the sentiment of having that courage and overconfidence to go out and make yourself visible.

Rob Marsh:  So far as we’ve been chatting, we’ve kind of been focused on the role of the coaches in the Think Tank, but there’s also this community aspect that is there and peers that can help and support. And again, because you guys were all members at one point and now are in more of a coaching and advisor role, would each of you just maybe take a second to think about or to reflect back on what that community experience and the feedback, the connections you made with peers, what difference that either made in your own business or what you see it happening in other people’s business. And since I am not really good at remembering who goes first, I’m just going to say let’s start with Tamara.

Tamara Glick:  So, for me, I feel that relationships are the foundation of really everything in my life, whether it is personal or in business. When I joined Think Tank, it was primarily for guidance, but a very close second for the guidance of my peers and the camaraderie and support and community of being amongst peers, especially as a digital entrepreneur. From that time as an active participant until now as a coach on the team and also continually a business owner on my own, those relationships continue to be the thing that I benefit from probably even the most from my active time in Think Tank. I feel that the relationships, if you invest in them and if you help them to grow, become the most long-lasting part of any educational experience that you may have. Whether that is looking at your years in school or your years in a professional development course, or even going to conferences. What you take away are of course the learnings, but the learnings come to life when you talk about them. And the progress of your business or your personal development comes to life when you collaborate on them. So, to me, that’s really the benefit of those relationships is they outlast any duration of a program or experience.

Rob Marsh:  How about you, Jonnie?

Jonnie Stellar:  I’m not sure if y’all are looking for anyone specific, but I can think of three people, maybe five, but my top three people that really stand out to me that were in my cohort, one being Matt Hall, who was he is just a stud. He offered such incredible advice, and really he was the guy that stressed the importance of learning and offering strategy as a copywriter and how valuable that is not only as an offering to clients but also to “future-proof” your career, because that’s kind of a leg up on AI, right? So, they can do algorithms and crunch numbers and study patterns, but really it’s that personalized strategy that they can’t offer yet. So, that was the number one thing that stood out about that cohort for me.

Also, Justin Blackman. Gosh, I think I’ve mentioned him on almost every podcast I’ve been on for TCC. He continues to be a huge influence, a great positive influence, in my life, even just through his emails. But he really helped me through a lot of the sticky stuff in terms of both actual copywriting and some of the mindset stuff, too, while we were in the Think Tank together. And also, really being able to talk to him one-on-one at the retreats was invaluable. Just connecting and being able to just share some personal things as well as some professional things. And he helped me work through a lot of those. And also he was so sweet.

I actually reconnected with him this year at IRL in Nashville. And he… I was kind of struggling trying to write my intro. And it was the night before, I think, at our group dinner, I was like, “I have no idea what I’m going to say.” And he gave me some really good advice, too, and even offered to kind of walk through my presentation with him beforehand. And before I actually took the stage, he came up to me, and he’s like, “You’re going to do amazing. I’m so proud of you.” Just really rekindled my confidence and actually made me less nervous walking up on stage. So, just kind of having him in my life arsenal of people that I genuinely care about and connect with has been, again, invaluable.

Also, Linda and Tamara have both in one way, shape or form, continue to influence me to this day. Tamara offers incredible insights, and she just has such amazing life experiences that I can relate to on so many levels. And she can really see into your soul. It’s kind of scary. But I’ve always loved that about Tamara. And then Linda, I listen to her podcast as well. Her and I have had a couple of cocktails together and what she can offer in terms of mindset is unparalleled because she gets copywriters. She gets the creatives’ world. So, I just want to talk about all the things. And, of course, Rob and Kira have been a major influence on the overall success of my career as well.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. The relationships are real. How about you, Linda?

Linda Perry:  I think what Jonnie was just saying is that my mindset coaching gets better with cocktails… joke. So, I obviously echo everything both of them have said about relationships. And they’re long-lasting. The truth is that I could have hid when I came into Think Tank because I joined Think Tank with my sister, and I was perfectly happy with having her be my critic, my mentor, and really my advisor when it came to copywriting. But I was exposed to this whole group of amazing people who ultimately became my friends. And what I think was the best part is people you look up to ultimately become your peers. Whether that’s you, Rob and Kira, or somebody like Joel Klecky who will admit he’s worked with me and he’s become a good friend, somebody I really personally admire.

And you have the opportunity to really expand your network. And I think beyond that, build these relationships that become invaluable to your business. And in surprising ways, whether it is they become ultimately people you work with, or they become affiliates for your programs, or they become just people you lean on day-in, day-out. They ultimately become this almost advisory board for your business. And I think that really is something that’s true. Even though I have shifted entirely to mindset work, I still stay connected to all of these cohorts because I just love hearing about everyone’s business. I love being able to see the growth, and I think that’s really what’s instrumental.

Kira Hug:  We have a Think Tank retreat coming up. So, we’re excited to shift from virtual retreats to starting to plan some in-person retreats. And that’s coming up in June. Part of it will be at my house. It’s just an excuse for me to throw another party at my house. And so, I wanted to ask all of you as we wrap up this conversation if you can just share a little bit of insight into the retreat experience. Because you’ve all been at the Think Tank retreat. What did you get out of the retreat or what surprised you the most about the retreat? If you can just share and kind of quickly as we wrap up and have five minutes left. Let’s start with Tamara.

Tamara Glick:  Oh my goodness. The virtual retreats we’ve done were shockingly good, but there is nothing like being in person. There just isn’t. I remember when we were in Charleston, it was like a rocket ship from the relationships and the learning that we had done together online to what happened in just those couple of days together. There were things that we talked about that I don’t think we ever would have been able to talk about them in the same way online as we were able to do in person. There’s a closeness and an intimacy that you build with people when you’re face-to-face that you can try and emulate online, but it really drives it home. All of that stuff that you’ve been working towards in getting to know your cohort online really, really comes to life when you’re in person.

Not to mention that Kira is really amazing at beer pong, but also that you get to do like all of these fun things and bond with one another outside of the “work” hours. Having a meal with somebody or going on a hop-on, hop-off tour bus like we did in Barcelona. These are the experiences that make a retreat really gel and help you to gel with the folks that you’re with, but also give you time to digest all of the information that once you’re clicking off a screen, you’ve just kind of like stop immediately. With an in-person retreat, you get to continue to percolate together. Which I think is just it’s incredibly different and very, very powerful.

Kira Hug:  Linda, what was your retreat experience like?

Linda Perry:  I almost just want to sum it up as Think Tank on steroids. I think that’s really the best way. Tamara just covered it so well. Everything about the retreat was always just mind-blowing and it just elevated my business so rapidly each time that I can’t even tell you how important the retreats are to the Think Tank experience. And I’ll be honest; the first retreat was the place that you guys had me come in and talk about beliefs. And it was kind of mind-blowing to watch everyone just have these shifts in real-time. And it really clarified what I wanted to do. So, I think the retreats are such an essential part of the experience, and live is truly the best. So, lucky that we can do those again.

Kira Hug:  Jonnie, what about you?

Jonnie Stellar:  Yes, to all the above. So many good things there. I do want to first highlight that Kira is exceptional at beer pong and foosball. Do not play this with her.

Kira Hug:  All the games. All the games. Thank you, Jonnie.

Linda Perry:  How have I missed this? I have never seen you play beer pong, Kira. This

Kira Hug:  Well, this was in Barcelona. Where else was…

Jonnie Stellar:  I think Charlotte. Charlotte, I want to say.

Kira Hug:  At Charleston, we have some games. Yeah. We’ll have some games in DC too. So, Linda, let’s do it.

Rob Marsh:  She was the first one in the hot tub in San Diego, though.

Linda Perry:  That’s true. That is true.

Jonnie Stellar:  So, yeah, I will remember that for sure. And then also they’re just fun. They’re an excuse to get out of town and see new things. For me, who lives in a less than entertaining area, to be able to go to these awesome, exciting hubs and places not just in the US but around the world. Barcelona, that was my first Europe trip. So, that was amazing. Hopefully, we’ll see some of those in the future. You walk in, and it’s like that nervous tension that you kind of get when you’re meeting “new” people. Even though they’ve been in your life, they have been in your virtual world for years. That immediately dissolves. You see people smiling faces, and you have a group of insta-pals. Not Instagram, but they’re instantly pals, and you don’t have that initial small talk that you have to get out of the way. It’s just an immediate in-person connection sharing. There’s a different energy when you get around a group of people. And your wheels turn differently. You think of things that you wouldn’t have normally thought of either virtually or on your own. Not to say anything bad against virtual, because we were kind of stricken by that world for a while, but really that in-person energy and that connection is absolutely irreplaceable and it’s so difficult to replicate any other way.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. It’s a fun experience, and we’re looking forward to getting back together. So, thanks to you guys for joining us for the last hour or so. This is the first time that we’ve had three guests on at once and not your first appearance for any of you. So, it’s great to have you all back. And if people want to connect with you guys, obviously, a great place to do that is in the Think Tank, but we’ll also post some links to your own websites just so people can check you out individually and see what you’re up to. So, just again, thank you for joining us and for sharing your experience and some ideas that maybe will help copywriters who are even just not yet ready for the Think Tank. So, thanks for that. And we will talk to you guys later.

Tamara Glick:  Thank you so much.

Kira Hug:  Thank you.

Jonnie Stellar:  Thanks.

Linda Perry:  Thanks, guys.