TCC Podcast #347: Finding Your Why with Linda Perry

The people and stuff we mentioned on the  show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Linda’s website 
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM
AI for Creative Entrepreneurs Podcast

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  Longtime listeners to this podcast will recognize a recurring topic that we revisit from time to time, and that’s mindset. Your mindset as a copywriter, as a business owner, as a problem solver impacts everything that you do in your work. It often determines whether you land that client that you’ve been dreaming of or hit the goals that you’ve set. And when it comes to mindset, our go-to expert is Linda Perry. She’s the guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Linda is a mindset coach who has helped hundreds of copywriters deal with the head trash that gets in the way of all of our success. She’s a coach inside the Copywriter Think Tank, and we invited her to talk with us about the challenges facing copywriters, content writers, and other marketers today.

Kira Hug:  But first, this podcast episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. And I’m not going to share a whole lot about the Think Tank because we talk about it with Linda in depth and we talk about a lot of the struggles and wins Copywriter Think Tank members have experienced. Linda is a Think Tank alumni member. So we dive pretty deep into what’s possible with the Think Tank in this episode. So stay tuned and if you like what you’re hearing about the Think Tank and what’s possible, you can learn more at copywriterthinktank.com and jump in there with us. Okay, let’s get into our episode with Linda.

All right, so let’s just catch up real quick because you’ve had some big life changes that we were just chatting about. I’m very jealous of these life changes that you’ve made and excited for you. So why don’t we just start with how your life and business has changed over the last year.

Linda Perry:  Yeah, I could actually just listen to your podcast to track all my changes in life. This would be great. So in the last year, I decided somewhere along the way to pick up and move and leave the States. We now are living in Portugal. I think I’ve expanded my business as well in terms of who I work with. I still really work with copywriters. I work with a lot of marketers. I’ve expanded to work with agencies actually to help them really in some of their team building leadership communications aspects and helping them all play a better role. So that’s been kind of fun. I also do another sort of assessment with people that’s been really fun to do. Lately, as you know, I work on the Enneagram, but I also have been doing this Why Certification that I got, this Why assessment that helps people really understand their why and how they show up and what they do. It’s been really cool because it can be validating. It can show me where people’s blocks are going to be, but it also gives them a really cool marketing message right away.

For example, my why is better ways, so I’m always looking for a better way to do things. If you’ve hung out with me, you know that’s probably true. And how I do that is challenging the system. And what I do is build trusting relationships. And so I’ve been working with people on that and it just opens up their mind to think about what their strengths are. I think there’s such a shortage of our ability to see strengths. So it’s been kind of fun because I get to focus a little bit more on how do we create something practical out of mindset, which we know I really like adding that practical aspect.

Rob Marsh:  So I’m coming back to the why thing for sure. But before we move on from Portugal and moving over, let’s just talk just a little bit more about the mindset around that because it’s a big move. You pretty much boxed up everything that you had in the States, it’s in a storage unit somewhere and a couple of suitcases and that’s it. And now you’re in Portugal for a couple of years. Just tell us about the thought process, why you decided that kind of a change, what you’re hoping to get personally, maybe even with your business.

Linda Perry:  Sure.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, with all of that.

Linda Perry:  I also don’t want to forget that the other change I made is as I started working with Think Tank.

Kira Hug:  Oh, we’re going to talk.

Rob Marsh:  We’ll definitely get to that, yeah.

Kira Hug:  Don’t worry.

Linda Perry:  I don’t want to forget that because that’s kind of important. Okay, so the mindset around that is, I’ll be honest Rob, this is the example of don’t let your dreams go. I think when I was 20 I wanted to actually move to Italy. It just sort of was in the back of my head. And then you have children and then you have… I was a lawyer and so all these things happened. And then last summer we went to Croatia as a family. My husband looked at me, he is like, “I could do this.” And I was like, “Wait, are you serious? Because I can make this happen,” within minutes. I was ready for a change. I missed living in a city. I’ve always wanted to experience Europe, you know I am. But I always say culturally liminal. There’s that big part of me that’s so American, but that part of me that’s also pretty European.

And so what this originally started as is like, “We’ll just rent out our house. We’ll just start off.” And then we started to think, “Well, why? Why rent it out? That’s a lot to manage from overseas.” So we put our house in the market. We ended up having a lot of headaches around selling our house, but we did it. We were going to go to Portugal, Spain, and Croatia. And then we realized we want to have some routes somewhere and we want to have the ability to travel on weekends and really live that dream life, like Kira you always talk about how I walk my walk. I wanted some place where I could work Monday through Thursday, which I do. And they’re a little bit longer hours even here. Friday, I don’t touch the computer. I don’t look at a computer. We head out somewhere, we do something.

When we looked at Portugal, it was weather, it was people. We hadn’t stepped foot in it. And we said, “Well…” And I think this is a lot building a business or doing anything, it’s like, “Well, I’m going to try it. And if it doesn’t work, I can shift.” ‘I think so much of what I’ve learned from growing a business, from being an entrepreneur is if it doesn’t work, I’ll find a different route. And so we just kind of decided. And we had our children’s blessing. I mean that was really key. My kids are old enough, they’re like, “Can we come with you?”

“No, y’all have to work in your own lives.” But we had their blessing essentially. And Lisbon isn’t that far to come back to the US. So that’s the whole mindset.

Kira Hug:  So how do you think about your business as you were preparing to make this move? Were there any changes you’ve had to make to the way you’re running the business?

Linda Perry:  Yeah, for sure. I mean, I had to go overcome my resistance to working at 8:00 PM at night sometimes, which I do once a week that I teach something at 8:00 at night. There’s a lot of resistance to that. I had to think about how do I expand my business in the sense that now I’m in Europe and if I want to work with companies or agencies, I have to start to think about how do I network here and how do I start to really get a foothold into the door of American companies even here to start to work on mindset or entrepreneurs here. The funny thing is I’ve gotten a bunch of new clients and they’re all Europe based. I’m like, “Have y’all been waiting for me to show?” And it’s been really nice. So I think I just had to start to expand thinking about how I was going to do it and am I going to fly back to the US, like how am I juggling some of that and realized it would all figure itself out. But I definitely had some resistance around working late, but I get my mornings.

Kira Hug:  Well, can you just speak to how you got your clients, your European clients? I mean, it sounds like it kind of magically happened. You moved and you found these new clients, but-

Rob Marsh:  No effort whatsoever on your part, I’m sure, yeah.

Kira Hug:  Right.

Linda Perry:  You all know me well enough to know that… Look, I always actually think being a coach is much harder than being a copywriter in terms of generating business. I’m usually the last person that people think they need, but I often think I’m the person that shifts their entire business. So I’ve really, over the years, worked very hard to think about what is the funnel that I bring people through? How do I really generate business? One of the things I actually talk a lot to copywriters, to business owners in general about is how do we think about visibility. And so I shifted a little bit about how I think about visibility. I’m showing up more and more places that my clients hang out. I’m writing more articles, I’m doing more video, I have new lead magnets. I’m getting on phone calls with people. I think that’s something we critically forget. We think, “Oh my God, I don’t want to be bothered. We got to run everything through some sort of electronic medium.”

But I went back old school, which I know you guys have done it before too. And I’ve been getting on the phone with people and letting them know, “I’m actually available for you to work through some things.” I actually found my podcast, and this is interesting, was a detriment. I think people thought they were getting enough. And that’s really tricky with mindset because one day you’ll be like, “I’m fine.” And the next day I’ll come crashing and you’re like, “Oh my God, I need help.” And then the next day you’re fine. But the problem is, is everything that got you to the plateau is going to bring you back to the plateau. Even if you climb a few steps, you’re going to come back down if you haven’t dealt with the underlying root cause.

And so I’ve just really gone back to showing up higher ground, which Kira did, is a labor of love and it is getting people into a room to talk about mindset. And that’s actually helped too because people get to see, “Wow, we all have this mindset thing, but how you work through it is really critical.” So it wasn’t overnight. You know me, I spent half my day marketing actually. I think about everything I put out there.

Rob Marsh:  You got to be there to get the clients, which yeah, good lesson. Okay, so let’s come back to the Why certification just a little bit. Let’s talk through this. So there’s some stuff out there about Find Your WHY, Simon Sinek, that kind of stuff. I don’t know if that’s related to the certification that you did. I have to admit, I really dislike that book. I mean, I can talk about why I don’t like it. I don’t disagree with the premise, but the book itself, I really dislike. I think he cherry-picks a lot of examples or whatever. But I think a lot of what he does say about the why is really important. Anyway, will you talk through that and what you’re doing with why and how important it is for us to have a why. Maybe the why is providing for my family, but sometimes, or oftentimes, there’s a bigger why than that as well.

Linda Perry:  Yeah. So the certification I got is somebody who worked with Simon Sinek actually. What had happened is I actually talked to a coach about how she generates business with companies and things, and she said, “Well, I have this certification” and there’s nine whys that this guy’s come up with. You take this assessment. The assessment’s literally five minutes. I’m like, “Okay, how impressive is that?” But apparently, I mean it is spot on. He took years of his own work with clients to figure out what motivates it and filtered it down to nine different ways. They include better way, right way, mastery. You know those people who really go deep, contribute, trust, challenge. And I’m missing a couple. Simplify, clarify, makes sense. There we go.

Basically, it’s funny because Kira can actually get people’s Enneagram from their why because it does track similarly. But what I found attractive about this is that why is the way your limbic brain makes decisions. So the why ultimately is what taps into the way you show up, what motivates you, what gets you going. How you do it is really like what Kolbe and StrengthsFinder really assess. So how and what essentially. And knowing your why is helpful because for a few reasons I’ve found. And I’ll be honest, when I heard this, I’m like, “Great tool for getting in the door. Don’t know how rich it’s going to be.” But it’s turned out because I already have such a rich toolbox, it’s allowed me a bunch of really cool things.

So for the whys have been pretty accurate. It’s been amazing to see because I’ve done them with people I know, people I don’t. But what it does is it taps into how do you show up in the world? What really drives you? When I heard of the whys, I’m like, “Oh, I’m clearly a better way. I will take things apart that I think can be fixed and I’ll find the better way for them.” I challenge everything. I’m a rock the boat kind of girl, so I knew that that had to be up there.

What it’s done for me is allowed me to better understand myself, not waste time on things that don’t matter and come up with a messaging and how do I communicate. So if you have a right way, I’m going to talk to you in language about right way. It now becomes a sales tool. It has helped the people I’ve worked with really understand themselves become more aware and I can tell them where they’re going to get stuck. So for example, a right way person is going to get stuck because they’re going to be perfectionists, they’re more like Enneagram ones. They need to have everything a certain way. And so it’s been a really cool tool for me to use everything I’ve got in my toolbox to help people see what are your strengths where are you going to get stuck, what do you need to work on. “Here’s some messaging tools and here’s how you can communicate for better sales.” It’s really helped as a way to help people move forward in their business. And that’s always my goal. So it’s been cool.

Kira Hug:  I feel like you have so many tools in your toolbox, which makes you an expert and so great at what you do as a mindset coach and as a copywriter. And so I guess the question is just how do you approach your own learning and tool development so that it continues to grow? I know part of it’s just who you are and you’re a growth focused person. But I feel like as copywriters, we really can strengthen our business if we have multiple tools we can pull from at any moment.

Linda Perry:  Yeah, it’s interesting. I  heard somewhere this morning when we talked about it because there’s always the question of, “Am I doing this because I’m afraid to put myself out?” A lot of copywriters will collect courses and be like, “Hey, I need one more thing before I put myself out.” Or, “Is this something that’s going to enrich the toolbox that I have?” I actually haven’t done any certifications in years and this really just appealed to me as a way to open a door, turned out to be something more interesting, which is great, but it is who I am. I mean, I read books on mindset daily, on marketing, on all of those things because I am a consistent learner. I do want to be mindful of how I’m using my time. This certification was pretty quick. It allowed me to just add another layer to my tools.

I think when copywriters are really considering what to add, it shouldn’t be necessarily about FOMO, should, all of those kinds of things. I think it’s a moment to stop and ask, “What is the next thing that’s going to help me grow in my business? What’s the next thing that’s going to help enrich it? What is going to help me reach my financial goals?” I think that’s something that we have to consider. You may like working with a certain group of people and you need the skills to be able to work with them, but you also need the skills that are going to help you put yourself out there more, rise up, actually be seen, make more money. And I think there’s got to be a balance of all of those things.

Rob Marsh:  So as you’re talking about that, this feels like a pretty good way to get specific. You have been working as a coach in the Think Tank for the last year or so, helping members of the Think Tank to fix their mindset, or if not fix it, make adjustments as time goes on, lean into that exact thing that you were just talking about. Can we get specific about some of the places where good copywriters who have decent businesses, making money, maybe it’s not always consistent, but making pretty decent money most of the time? Where are we getting stuck? And I know we could probably go on for seven or eight hours here, but let’s just hit some of these big things that people get stuck with that you are helping members of the Think Tank and also your own clients get over.

Linda Perry:  Yeah. So I started to label these things, the plateaus we all get stuck on, right? Because there are certain plateaus and they all fall into different categories. The great thing about Think Tank is first of all, I’ve been really lucky, it’s such a wonderful community. Everybody comes openly sharing what’s going on for them. There’s no hiding, right? It’s a safe place for people to show up. And it’s actually been super rewarding. And what we do is once a month we have a group coaching call and then once a month we have a targeted mindset training so that they can move past certain plateaus. So a lot of the things that I see will start out with… Let’s start out with a big one. The money mindset piece. We recently just had a training on money mindset. I think it’s a trap that shows up in myriad different ways.

I think people think money mindset is, “I’m bad with money or I worry about money or I need money.” In fact, money mindset ultimately comes down to a lot of self-worth. So what happens is we’ll see pricing that kind of goes up and down, a lot of caring about, “Can my client pay?” It’s a lot of, “Is it worth it?” Right? And so we’ve done on some shifts in the Think Tank for them to think differently about how to show up, how to think differently about their own pricing. What are some of the traps that are actually happening because of money mindset? It could be visibility, it could be perfectionism, it can be taking feedback to the heart because we then worry about, “Oh my God, is the next client then going to feel the same way?” And, “Oh my God, I got to over give.” And then, “Oh my gosh…” You know. It’s a slippery slope.

So we see a lot of those kinds of things come up and it’s this release that happens once you realize that money is your barometer. And how do you anchor yourself into your self-worth things start to shift. So many mindset’s one thing we work on.

The other thing I’ve seen a lot of is, “Am I an expert? Can I go talking about this? Do I need more skills?” This happens for a lot of us, right? “Who am I to go talk about this? Who am I to show up with this? Who am I to go seek a client that is sort of my next level client?” And so a lot of people will maybe call it imposter complex or fear of failure or finding out that they’re fraud. So we work on those kinds of mindsets that build confidence, that allow people to recognize what they already have. Most of the people in Think Tank have some pretty amazing skillsets already. And it’s really coming in going, “What are some of those things that you are hiding behind and not really letting come to the surface?” So I see a lot of that kind of stuff going on.

There’s also the thought process that, “If I’m having a hard month, is this going to continue?” And it’s really been there that we do a lot of really good work, because look, being an entrepreneur, being a copywriter, being whatever you call yourself, a freelancer, whatever it may be takes a lot of faith that the work is coming. There are months that are tougher than others. Every one of us can say that who’s been in the copywriting business.

Rob Marsh:  Sometimes quarters. Yeah, sometimes it’s not just a month.

Linda Perry:  Yeah. And it’s real. And so we don’t pretend it’s not. I think that’s super important is that your feelings are real, this money problems are actually real. Where are you acting from? So one of the things that’s super detrimental where quarters become years of bad luck, if you will, is when we get stuck in activities that are just designed to bring cash. We’re pivoting too much. Our audience doesn’t know what’s happening, we’re desperate. All of those kinds of things are going to impact long term. So we talk about how do you find relief from the worry and how do you create intentional action?

So I kind of am partnering with you guys because… And we don’t do this necessarily spoken, but what I’m piggybacking off of is where you’re finding the strengths of individuals where they should be working on in their plans, I’m saying, “Okay, what’s the head trash that’s getting in the way of you following the trajectory that you’ve discussed with Rob and Kira?” And that’s what we’re working on so they can show up so they don’t procrastinate. I’m big on visibility. So one of the things that I think is we can’t get seen, we can find you. So we really are working through all of those kinds of things. And it’s really cool because everybody gets their turn and everyone’s really supportive. It’s a place where people will apologize, “I just took up so much time.” There’s no apologies. It’s an actual space to take up for solutions. So these are just some of the things that are really coming up right away for me. But it’s been really rewarding being able to work with the Think Tankers. They’re amazing.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And that’s such a great point about how we can work together. And this is where partnerships can play such a big role in any type of business. And Rob and I can sit down with a Think Tank member and we can do a SWOT analysis. We can create a really clear aspiration, a measurable outcome. We can create a focus map and a concrete plan someone could follow for six months and it’s like a bulletproof plan, but we’re humans, so we get in our own way. And once the head trash pops up, all of a sudden the plan stalls, we’re feeling really awful about it, we stopped showing up. Maybe we even stop to show up to Think Tank events anymore. Maybe we’re not booking calls with Rob to talk through it because we’re embarrassed. And so you come in and you can really work through those thoughts and those stories that people tell themselves and pick up those pieces so they can either readjust the plan or just get back on track. I think that’s the piece that’s missing in so many different programs that are focused on goals and achievement.

So I do think that’s the power of the Think Tank, is it’s putting all the pieces together in a way that I don’t found that in many other masterminds or other programs.

Linda Perry:  Yeah, I mean we haven’t really even touched base on this, part of me wants to be like, “Have you noticed the difference?” Since I’ve been working with some of the group members, what are you seeing from your end? Because we have such a trust, the three of us, we don’t even need to really talk about this. You’re like, “Go do your thing, Linda.”

Kira Hug:  I guess we should. Yeah, yeah.

Linda Perry:  Yeah, and it’s great. And so I’m curious, what have you noticed that changes as a result of us being a team?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it’s a good question. So one of the things that I think happens less, there are still struggles around clients coming, but honestly, confidence questions come up far less for us lately than they did a year ago.

Linda Perry:  That’s true. That’s true.

Rob Marsh:  A year ago, half of our conversations would be around, “I can’t do that. I’m not ready to do that.” And I see that a ton less. There’s some basics around confidence. Confidence isn’t really easy to get before doing the thing. You have to lean in and you have to start. I think you’ve helped a ton with that just as a baseline that people feel like the goals that we set… And we set some pretty significant goals. People will come in and we’ll say, “12 months from now, where should you be on a monthly basis? What kind of income do you want?” They’ll be like, “Well, 8,000, 10,000.” And we’re like, “Well, why not 20,000? Why not 30,000? Let’s think higher.” They may not hit 30,000. They may not hit 20,000. But when you think about your business differently like that, you do different things and you have to show up differently.

When we would set big goals like that, people are immediately, “How in the world can I do that? I’m not the person that can make $20,000 or more.” And so confidence is a big thing that I think most of the Think Tank over time have made that adjustment. So that’s just one that’s really obvious to me.

Linda Perry:  Yeah, that’s a big one.

Kira Hug:  The visibility. I think that so many of our Think Tank members are actively focused on their own marketing. They’re speaking. I think it’s happening faster and earlier for them because of what you’re doing with them, so that stands out. And Rob’s right. Our conversations have shifted where we’re more focused on helping Think Tank members focus and be more strategic, but it’s less of talking through the confidence and the piece that you cover. And I think overall, it just strengthens a group. In a mastermind, it’s so important for people to trust each other. It’s hard to create that dynamic in groups. I mean, I’ve been in many mastermind groups, it doesn’t happen organically in most of them. And so having that deeper conversation that you host via Slack and through the monthly calls allows the group to feel more connected so we can just do more and they can get more out of those relationships than they would have otherwise.

Linda Perry:  Yeah, they’re great. I will say that is one thing that I see working in the Think Tank, is they come to the groups ready to support one another and have each other’s backs. Like I said, that’s really hard. You can’t manufacture that, right? And so I think that’s been a gift to watch because every single person shows up going, “Yeah, that’s me.” If somebody’s struggling with something, they’re like, “Hey, you’re not alone. I’m feeling that.” Right?

Rob Marsh:  Or, “I have felt it in the past and this is some of the stuff that I went through.” Yeah, there’s a lot of that.

Linda Perry:  Yeah. So that’s been really cool. Yeah, I like that.

Kira Hug:  Okay, let’s break in here and add a couple thoughts to what Linda’s been sharing. Rob, why don’t you start?

Rob Marsh:  Okay. Well, one or two things. Maybe I should clarify because at one point I said to Linda that I have some issues with Simon Sinek’s book Find Your WHY. While I do not disagree at all with the importance of the why and the way that Linda talks about the certification that she has and how she leads people through discovering their purpose, I just kind of feel like, “Okay, what problem, Rob, do you have with that book?’ And if you’ve read the book, you know that it’s full of… It’s got a bunch of examples of companies that Simon Sinek talks about their why. My biggest takeaway is I think something that Linda actually fixes in her approach to it, and that is nobody really cares about our why in business. It’s really our client’s why.

And so yeah, I have why that I do the things that I do providing for my family, helping copywriters get better, what they do. Those kinds of things are important to me. But clients that come to me for copywriting work, they care about their why and what they’re trying to accomplish. Or copywriters who come to you and me, Kira, to get better at their business, they care about their business and their why. And so there’s definitely a bridge that we need to cross there. And I think Linda in the way that she talks about helping people get to their why does that really well.

Kira Hug:  So do you think you are too harsh with Simon Sinek?

Rob Marsh:  Not necessarily. Because like I said, I’m not really a fan of that particular book. I mean, lots of business books cherry-pick the examples that they use. And so you’ll always see examples like Apple computer as if Apple computer is relevant to anything that any of us as single business owners, or even if we’re running our own agencies, as if we have anything in common with those and we don’t. And so sometimes those lessons when authors will take them and say, “Hey, yeah, apply this lesson to your business” and it just doesn’t fit.

And then of course the others side of that is that when we cherry-pick examples like that, big billion, trillion dollar businesses were only taking a very small set of the total number of businesses that were started. And who’s to say that there weren’t a million businesses out there with a really definite why that still failed? And because we are only looking at those winners because we have that small set, I’m not sure that they teach us the same.

This isn’t just Simon’s book, by the way. Lots of books do this, lots of business books. And so I think we just need to be really careful. We can pull lessons out of them, but oftentimes we need to look at those lessons and say, “Okay, wait. Is this truly a lesson applies to everybody? Is this something that I can use in my business? Is it something that isn’t necessarily true but I think it’s true because a few big businesses have done it successfully while other businesses have failed doing the same thing?” We just have to ask those kinds of questions to be really smart about it.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And we can have both. I want to have my own why, and then I can have a why that’s more client facing in my messaging to my clients. So one could guide my internal business making decisions and the other can help with attraction marketing and attracting the right people. So I want both, all of it.

Rob Marsh:  And Linda, I think, like I said, she crosses that bridge really well because she’s all about helping her clients figure out their why. I think she’s really good at seeing when their why maybe doesn’t match their prospects’ why. And sometimes that’s a disconnect that leads to struggles in our business.

Kira Hug:  So we talk a lot about mindset as we should with Linda Perry. She’s such a great resource. I am curious how you invest in your own mindset, Rob.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, well, I mean obviously I pay attention to a lot of the stuff that Linda talks about. She is my go-to expert when it comes to mindset. But then it’s also really about diving into books. Whether they’re self-help or business books, I try to read or listen to a lot of those and question my approach to different things. We’ve talked about this endlessly, but we belong to a mastermind that I think oftentimes challenges us to think differently about our business, whether it’s different ideas for doing things or approaches to our team, all of those kinds of things. So that tends to be where I in invest in those kinds of things. How about you, Kira?

Kira Hug:  Yeah, in a similar way. I mean, when I think about the time I put into my mindset and even the money I invest in it and I’ve invested for a while, it’s a lot for something like mindset that isn’t always attached to an immediate ROI, but it’s because I know it makes such a huge difference. And so yes, Linda has been a mindset coach of mine. I learned from her in the Think Tank. I work with another mindset coach who we’re going to feature on the podcast soon. I mean, I have a therapist for mental health which we overlap because I forced her to talk about mindset and help me make business decisions too.

And then retreats is a big one. I mean, when you and I go to those retreats, we are one of the smaller businesses in our mastermind group. And just being in a room surrounded by people who are five steps ahead of you, 10 steps ahead of you, that is what will shift my mindset the most. And sometimes even being in a room where maybe you’re the biggest business, whether that’s based on size or impact or revenue, that’s up to you, but it’s also helpful to be in that situation because then you can realize how many people you can help and teach and how you have grown and you’re in a different position. So all of that together, it’s a lot like because I know I’m the only person in my way, I get in my own way frequently. So I know this is the area where I want to invest the most at this stage in my business.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Well, we’re talking about investing in your business too. I think Linda said something that was really insightful and it’s my approach also to investing in my business, and that is you don’t need everything now. You don’t need to know everything about copywriting. You don’t need every single course or every single program that’s out there. You just need what is the next thing for your business. What’s the next skill that you need in order to grow or in order to serve this particular kind of client or in order to do this kind of… And being really deliberate in thinking through that approach helps narrow down so many decisions around, “Oh, I just saw this great product. Do I need it? Should I buy it? It’s on sale right now. Maybe I can use it in a few years.” Those kinds of things. It’s to look and say, “Okay, where are we in our business?”

Right now, a lot of copywriters are asking questions about AI, so maybe there’s a place to invest in. Or they’re asking questions about, “How do I really grow my business?’ Maybe there’s an investment opportunity there, but we don’t need everything all the time now. It’s best to say, “Okay, what’s my next step and how do I get there?” Maybe it’s a tool, maybe it’s a coach, maybe it’s some other kind of a program and investing really smartly in your business.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. It goes back to the goals that you set, whether you set them a month ago or January 1st. But I look at my goals and I look at the ones I’m struggling with. And the ones I’m struggling with, I invest in supporting the fulfillment of those goals because, one, I mean you and I have talked about it a lot, but writing a book has been really important. You and I talk about it all the time, but I am struggling to do that. So an investment I could make would be in some type of course, or maybe it would be a coach who can help me to split the accountability. So I’m looking at those areas where I’ve clearly set a goal, it’s important to me, but something is missing and there’s something getting in the way. And so that’s where I would make the next investment rather than almost creating a new goal by investing in something else.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, exactly. I also appreciated that Linda emphasized three really big areas that we focus on in the Think Tank, but she does in her coaching as well, that is money mindset, visibility and expertise. Those three play… They’re almost like they fit together like a puzzle in the way that we build our businesses and in the importance they have for our businesses if we want to have businesses where people come to us as opposed to us needing to always be out there pitching. We have a course that teaches people how to pitch, but wow, it’s so much better when you get through that period in your business where you don’t have to pitch anymore and you do show up as an expert and you do have the visibility that you need and that money mindset stuff doesn’t get in your way anymore and your business just… It’s almost like an on-off switch in some ways where you just permanently… Or it’s maybe more of a flywheel where you’ve now got the momentum and things just keep going.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And visibility is such a long game and that’s why it’s so hard because we don’t necessarily feel the impact of it right away. And that’s where many of us give up because we’re like, “Well, I’m doing the thing, why is it not working? I’m not getting the result.” Well, it’s because you’ve only done the visibility activity three times. But it is a magical moment when something, visibility-wise, you’ve invested in for years or something you did three years ago shows up and you get a client or a lead from that blog post you wrote or that time you were featured. And you think it doesn’t matter, but all those visibility activities do matter and will ultimately help in the long run.

Also, we talk about tools. I commented in that conversation, Linda has so many different tools as a coach that she can pull from. I think that’s something that we can rely on as copywriters. And I’m someone who was not always a fan of talking about my tech stack and all my tools. As a creative, I feel like I kind of pushed away from that. But more and more recently, I just realized the value of having these different tools that we can pull from depending on the problem we’re solving. And especially now with AI having a couple different tools or many tools you could pull from depending on what you’re trying to do, that just gives you more power and strength and efficiencies in what you’re doing.

And so I love that she uses examples and talks about the tools she uses. It’s something that I will continue to pull from as I build my skillset in multiple areas. It’s like, “Well, what tool could I invest in or what tool could I learn so that I feel confident in what I’m doing and I know I have a process and some resource I can pull from if I get stuck.”

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, absolutely. I think that dovetails exactly with what we were talking about. What is that next thing in the business that we need? And it’s not always a course or a coach. Sometimes it is a tool or a different kind of resource.

Kira Hug:  All right, let’s go back to our discussion with Linda and go deeper into the mindset shifts we’ve been talking about.

I wonder if we could go back to the three examples, the mindset shifts that you talked about, money, visibility. What was the third one?

Linda Perry:  Is the expertise. “Am I an expert? Can I-“

Kira Hug:  Okay, yes.

Linda Perry:  “Can I put myself out there?’ The not enoughness kind of thing.

Kira Hug:  Could you work through a specific example for one of those or for all of them with a person? I mean, we will not name the people, but just what they did or what you helped them do to work through it and get to the other side.

Linda Perry:  Yeah, I’ll go to the bunny mindset one first because that’s always easy. I’m trying to think which example I want to pull. I’m going to go a little generic first if that’s okay. But one of the things we talk about is pricing and putting yourself out there on a worth base versus a value base. And so really some of the things that we’ve worked on in terms of head trash around pricing themselves in a different way is rather than focusing solely on, “Am I worth it? Is this worth it? I don’t know that I’m seeing the change. I can’t guarantee the change.” That’s the other piece of this I think, is a lot of copywriters will be like, “I’m working with someone. I’m taking their money. I can’t guarantee.” And that was a specific person who actually had that issue and “I can’t guarantee.”

And I said, “Here’s the thing. Your job can’t guarantee it, yes. But that person’s going to hire somebody. They’re going to hire a copywriter because they can’t do this. They need somebody who’s as caring as you are to show up for them who’s going to actually do the research, who’s going to actually think about the content, work on the voice, do all of those things. And so regardless, you’re providing value, you are giving them an asset and yet they can go work with somebody who’s going to butcher their business or you.” And it’s little things like that because we can start to get, “I feel guilty taking their money. I can’t guarantee it. Oh my gosh.” We get all wrapped up in those stories we tell ourselves.

And so that’s just an example of what we worked through and gave some tools on how do you shift to more value thinking within the group.

Rob Marsh:  So while we’re talking about some of these money questions, one of the things that’s been coming up, not just in the Think Tank but in the Copywriter Underground, in the Accelerator, we see it’s even happening on Twitter, is this conversation around the economy right now is a little screwy. We’re not officially in a recession, but there’s been so much inflation, there’ve been layoffs. I think a lot of us are telling ourselves a story about the economy that we use as an excuse for not doing some things in our business that might happen. And so knowing that we’ve got this baseline screwy economy, how do we step out of a story like that where it’s like, “Well, I didn’t land these clients because the economy’s crazy” and start thinking more around, “Okay, economy’s crazy. What do I need to do differently in order to get past that?”

Linda Perry:  One of the things that drove me crazy when the recession conversation first hit was how many emails we all got like, “Recession proof your business.” How many did you get? I got a lot.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, we had a few wrote.

Kira Hug:  I mean, I wrote a couple of those emails.

Rob Marsh:  I mean, there are definitely a couple of things that you can do to prepare for a recession.

Linda Perry:  Yes. Okay, so great. You and I-

Rob Marsh:  So yeah, I think that’s a little bit different

Linda Perry:  Right. And that you and I agree on these things. One of the things that I think I wrote about was how do you really think about always recession proofing your business? In other words, shit’s going to happen, excuse my language, but it’s going to happen. Whether it’s COVID, the recession, change is inevitable. So rather than focus on the external things you cannot control, what can you control? We’re so busy looking at the external factors and telling ourselves the story. Yet what happens is when you get mired in the story, creativity stops. “What can I do right now that’s in my control?” We actually talk about that when they are high hard months. You cannot control whether a client’s going to say yes, you cannot control their pocketbook. You cannot control whether they’re going to be able to afford you. What can you control?

This is like when Kira asked me like, “You went over to Portugal, did you just wave a magic fairy wand and all of a sudden you got clients?” No, it was actually me taking a look at my business and saying, “What can I control here? What is in my power?” And it was really within my power to really restructure a few things. “Let me think about my long-term financial planning. Let me think about what the kinds of clients I’m going to take.” The things you can control is not taking clients that are the wrong clients that can barely pay you, that have you working so hard that you have no ability to market yourself.

So I always go back to got to go and say, “Okay, yes, this is real. And what can I control?” Because I cannot control what’s going to happen tomorrow about this. I can’t control this little ChatGPT thing, which is another thing we all get a lot of emails about, which is another air source of head trash. Lots of fear. But what can I control? I can get better at voice. That’s going to be needed. I can get better at all storytelling. ChatGPT still sucks at storytelling.

Rob Marsh:  Even persuasion, yeah. Same thing.

Linda Perry:  Yeah. And persuasion. Exactly. These are the things I can control when we talked about the skills. That’s where you want to be investing your energy and time because worry leads nowhere but more worry.

Kira Hug:  I’d like to talk through a couple other head trash comments, questions that I have come up in the Think Tank and I will not read the people who shared this with us, of course, out of confidentiality. There was one comment that resonated with me because I felt this too. Someone said, “Have you ever felt like I just want someone else to be in charge of the business? I’m tired of prospecting and pivoting and decision making and I feel like I’m constantly on the cusp of just taking off, but then it doesn’t happen.” And I think that’s really common to feel that drain of just like it’s you. It’s up to you. You are the only person that can work through the problem and you are the person who will also get in your own way. You are the solution and the problem all in one. So what would you say to someone who feels like they’re constantly on the cusp, but the pieces just aren’t fitting together yet?

Linda Perry:  Been there often. So I understand that one quite a bit, right? I don’t know if there’s one answer, but the answer I start with is typically if you just use the same mindset which created the problem, I’m back at the problem, right? And I often take myself out of the equation when there is a problem like that where I feel like I’m having to do everything.

One thing I will say about the Think Tank is you have those sounding boards. I can’t tell you how critical those sounding boards are. I still have them in my own life for sure. But I have gotten to the point that the solution when I’m always going, “Well, how do I do this?” is really usually a, “Who can do this for me?” And I have to get creative on who. I love that book, who Not How, and get really creative on who’s going to help me with certain things. I still dread cold pitching like nobody’s business. My sounding board was actually you don’t have to do it. Sometimes we’re doing a bunch of things that can actually be removed. Are you doing things that are actually generating revenue? I loved my podcast. I really did, but it needed to pause. It was actually preventing people from coming through the door, oddly enough.

Kira Hug:  How did-

Linda Perry:  They thought they were getting enough of me.

Kira Hug:  How did you figure that out? By the way, Linda, you mentioned that earlier. How did you come to that conclusion, “Okay, I’m losing clients because of that”?

Linda Perry:  I started to ask and I started to notice that people would be like, “I’ve listened to so many episodes. I feel like you’ve been there for me” and I started to listen to what they were telling me. And I went, “Huh, interesting.” And so I said, “What can I let go of?” And so it was that. But there are other things we’re all doing. We show up on social media five times a week and we think, “Okay, I’ve been visible.” When in reality all you’ve done is put up a post. Are you visible to the right people or just copywriters liking your posts? It really expands your thinking here on what’s visibility and what am I doing that’s maybe too much that, “I’m doing because everybody tells me I should.” I know you guys do that a lot with people like that you work with. And I think that’s an important piece.

What can you take off your plate that doesn’t need to be there? So it’s a lot of shoulds. I often say my sister now runs a multi six figure business. She’s not on social media plus she is with her dogs, but that’s about it, right? But not her business. There’s multiple ways to get to the spot and I think we need to, instead of “What more can I do?”, what’s the right thing to do? And I’ll be honest, the thing that actually does it is having a vision. If you do not have a vision for your business, you will be doing too much all the time. And I think that’s really… I mean, people underestimate the power of a vision all the time. I wish I could convince every single person listening, walk away and just create a vision for your business.

Rob Marsh:  So I’m going to say this a little bit jokingly, but are you saying we should have a vision for our business?

Linda Perry:  Yeah, I mean-

Rob Marsh:  That’s one of the actual limits.

Linda Perry:  I’m actually going to be like, no, it’s beyond. It’s a must have. I mean, but would you build a house without a foundation?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, or a blueprint.

Linda Perry:  Or a blueprint, which is what I call my vision program, right? You need it.

Kira Hug:  I have a couple other mindset challenges. So the other one that pops up frequently is… I know you both have heard this. I’d love your take Rob as well. How do you approach the whole idea around, “Someone else already did this so I can’t do it” challenge which never goes away?

Rob Marsh:  This one drives me nuts.

Kira Hug:  It never goes away.

Rob Marsh:  This one absolutely drives me nuts.

Kira Hug:  It’s very much real. I’ve felt it at different times and how to work through it. So I would love both of you, your takes on this.

Linda Perry:  This is hard because I think this is a place where Rob and I agree in the sense that I’m like, “I actually have never had that stop me.” Not once. And it’s like one of those places I don’t get hung up. I get hung up on a lot of other places. But here’s what I have to say. I mean, there’s this really weird scene in Garden State if you’ve ever seen the movie where she’s like-

Kira Hug:  I love that movie.

Linda Perry:  I love that movie too, where she’s dancing with her finger and she’s pointing at everyone and she’s like-

Kira Hug:  She’s Enneagram 4. She’s an Enneagram 4 definitely.

Linda Perry:  Totally. She has to be, but she’s like, “Nobody’s ever done this in this spot before like this.” And I always think of that movie when people tell me that because I’m like, “Nobody’s ever said it your way.” And even if they have, here’s what I’m going to say. There’s somebody who maybe opened up their Instagram feed or their email or their whatever and read it today and it resonated. And they maybe have read it 500 other times before and it didn’t resonate and you just made a difference for somebody. “Are you going to miss that opportunity because you think it’s been done before?’ That’s what I always ask them.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I come from the same place. I mean, I don’t see this happening in a lot of other fields. For instance, at some point a surgeon invented some kind of cardio process for fixing blockages in an artery. There are no other doctors out there saying, “I can’t do it because that guy did it first.” They’re adopting the best practice and they’re doing it to help their patients, right? And I am not saying that if you learned a formula, let’s say you’re familiar with Ray Edwards’ PASTOR writing formula. Don’t go out and teach PASTOR and claim it as your own. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t talk about writing formulas. Even he’s writing formula in a way that applies to your clients. Give him credit. I learned this from Ray, that kind of thing. Or Justin Blackman’s WTF formula, which is a rephrasing of another formula that he learned.

Don’t copy people’s stuff. But just because Eugene Schwartz came up with the stages of awareness or talking through unique mechanisms doesn’t mean that none of us can do that either. In fact, some knowledge is so broadly distributed that everybody talks about that stuff now without crediting him who came up with it first. But I think we get hung up on that stuff. It’s like, “Well, I learned how to write emails from Kira, so I can’t talk about that.” And that’s not the case. Don’t copy. Don’t copy but talk about what you learned, talk about your process, differences that you make. If it is the same, give credit. “I learned this stuff from Kira.” But don’t let that stop you because it doesn’t stop anybody else in any other field just because somebody did it first.

Linda Perry:  That’s such a good point. I mean, all the stuff I share was built off the shoulders of somebody else, right? I did not invent mindset. In fact, it’s like I talk about it differently than somebody else does, but it’s all the same stuff. I will say I do think people do need to give credit non mindset stuff too, because there is… I will give quotes. I have heard people quote me and I’m like, “I can’t. I can’t. Hi.” So don’t copy. However, that’s not a reason to not put yourself out there at all. You never know who needs to hear it. Maybe they’re hearing it for the first time and maybe need to learn from you because they like your style.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah.

Kira Hug:  It’s a great way-

Rob Marsh:  I mean, we could go on and on here, but I mean, I do want to be clear. Do not copy. If you like somebody’s website, don’t copy their website. Don’t copy designs. Don’t repeat exactly what they say. Give credit when it’s due, but don’t, because you learned it from somebody, stop you from talking about things.

Linda Perry:  Exactly.

Kira Hug:  Okay, last one I have. Let me see if I can formulate this. I feel like we’ve touched on it, but we haven’t fully covered it. It’s just the idea around making it. Just like we all have this goal in mind and when we’re going to make it and things are going to be easy and smooth after that.

And what happens for a lot of copywriters, which we’ve touched on, is they have a really good month or two and they achieve some of their big goals, like it might be hitting the 10K month finally or hitting the 25K month and they’re like, “Amazing,” but the following month or two is not the same. And so we already talked about the mindset around kind of dealing with that, but I think there’s another repercussion where they feel embarrassed, like, “I talked about it. Because now I’m focused on my visibility and I might have talked about that on a podcast. I might have even written a blog post where I talked about how I did it and now I can’t do it again and I thought I’d achieved this milestone I’d be there forever and only up from there.” So how do you look at that as far as ever being finished with the business? Because we also need the comfort of like, “I need to know that I can get to a better spot where it’s not this painful all the time.”

Linda Perry:  Yeah. I recently has started talking about the shame of the six figure entrepreneur, and I think it’s a real thing. It’s not a joke because maybe you are getting to six figures, but it’s not consistent. You had some really hard months. And there’s this shame. You know what? I think I’ve experienced that, right? Great things were great and then they went sucky. And then you start with the imposter thing, “Who am I be telling people about this when my months are sucky?” Or worse yet, two is, you’re having success and You didn’t even celebrate it and you’re onto, “Well, now I have to make half a million or now I have to make a million.” When is it enough?

I think this is where we go back and don’t define success. It’s really important to recognize what success is. One of the things I talk a lot about is, is your business giving anything back to you or are you just pouring your whole heart into it? And by giving back, it’s a really weird concept for some people. But giving back means understanding that your business has to actually allow you time to be a mom, Kira, right? For me to go travel on weekends, to write, to have a normal existing life. I mean, otherwise, go get a job. I think if it’s not giving back, it’s an opportunity to look at. And what I mean by that too is it’s not giving back in consistency. We go back to, “What is in my control?” A lot of people are like, “Was I just lucky that I had a few really good months?”

Kira Hug:  Yeah, exactly.

Linda Perry:  Right? No. And we don’t do enough real reflection. We go only as far as what worked, what didn’t work. And sometimes we don’t even do that. I created this little worksheet recently, a freebie that is really about how do you learn your lessons. It’s about really going back and reflecting more than what worked and what didn’t work. “Who was I being? How was I showing up? What are my processes?” Now, this is the greatest time to look at processes, right? What’s in my control? We go back to again answering it in that question, right?

And so the idea is that, no, it wasn’t a fluke. Yes, this is hard. Places like Think Tank, people do talk about that. In our mindset calls we do talk about, “I feel kind of like a fraud because I had really good months and now it’s dry. How do I put myself out there into the world?” And I think recognizing that this happens to so many of us gives us permission to say, “Okay, but now what do I do with it? What are the lessons that this is showing me? What do I really have to learn from these dry months? Have I been chasing the wrong clients? Can they pay? Do I have all the systems and processes to have a consistent funnel?” I’ll be honest, that’s what I went and looked at. It’s not magic. It is, “Do I have all the things we tell our clients to do?”

And so it is an opportunity. These are moments that yes, they suck. And yes, you are probably going, “I can’t do anything about the feeling of the shame.” But to act from the shame means you’re going to pick bad clients, which you’re going to repeat the cycle and you’re going to go back to the plateau. Your only goal should be like, “How do I not reach the plateau again?” And if that’s your goal, well that’s pretty cool because you can do something about that, barring with the recession, whatever. But you can control how you’re showing up messaging.

You never know that your own messaging around this, like the shame piece, may help a business that’s experiencing the exact same thing. You may find the copy solution that pulls you out, that pulls another business out, that pulls another business out. That’s why this is an opportunity. It’s hard to think like that, but if you can take a breath and say, “This is temporary. This too shall pass,” it allows you to start to think, “What can I do?” It’s not positive thinking. I don’t want a positive think this away.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, that’s good. I want to ask about something that I see that’s almost the total opposite, and that is vulnerability. Not so much in the Think Tank necessarily, but a lot of times people overshare things that are going wrong to the point where it destroys their credibility. Again, we think we’re being vulnerable, we think we’re making those connections. We just talked just a little bit about that. I know the line is maybe fuzzy where it goes from being okay sharing a difficulty, but there’s probably part of this is a story where it’s not just all vulnerability, it’s not just all bad stuff that’s happening, but what I’m doing to overcome it or how I overcame it is probably an important part of that conversation. What’s your take on those kinds of things?

Linda Perry:  Oh, if you had a whole hour on this, I could totally tell you how people blow up their businesses. It’s fantastic to watch, but it’s not-

Rob Marsh:  It’s awful to watch.

Linda Perry:  Right. Right.

Rob Marsh:  It’s literally a train wreck sometimes, yeah.

Linda Perry:  It’s you’re just like, “Please get off that train. Please stop, right?” Here’s how I’m going to share a couple things. My friend Nancy Levin often… This is again a quote from my friend Nancy Levin. It is basically share from the scab, not the wound. If you are in the middle of something, a divorce, a really messy something, please stop sharing about it. Yes, I understand you’re feeling empowered, but you’re not on the other side of it so you’re not seeing what is actually the lay of the land and you may be actually alienating clients. The other aspect is what Brene Brown says, is if there’s a yuck factor to what you’re saying, somebody’s cringing. Do not share it. Do not. Stay away from it. Vulnerability, real vulnerability includes oneness, not a, “I’m throwing up all over you.” Vulnerability is if we are all experiencing this.

I actually write… My tone is often a very much… Justin’s analyzed my tone in my writing, he’ll be like, “You are very much a we. We’re all in this.’ That’s vulnerability. We all feel this crap. I am not exempt. That’s vulnerability. But I’ve also processed most of it and I can process pretty darn quickly. So my ability to do that, and yours may be different. Recognize that if you still feel static, if there’s tension, if you are angry, if you are hurt, if you are disappointed, you are upset, you haven’t found the solution, please don’t share. You may be hurting your business and that’s hard. Go share where it’s safe like the masterminds, the places where you have trusted friends who are actually going to help you think of ways out of it. That’s the place to share. All over social media, not so much.

Kira Hug:  All right, in the last minute or two, Linda, can you share why someone should join the Think Tank if they’re a good fit? If they’re consistently hitting about 4K in their business a month and ready to hit 10K plus a month ready for the next thing in their business, why should they join the Think Tank now and why should they not wait? Because it’s also easy for many of us to say, “Well, I know I want to do this, but I’ll put it off another year or six months.”

Linda Perry:  If you want to fast track and get the results you actually want, if you want to see those 10K months consistently, if you want to actually transform your business, why wait? Do it now. We always joke about the fact that I was told to join Think Tank back in the day, right? My sister’s like, “You have to do this.” Sure.

Rob Marsh:  You kind of didn’t really want to, if I remember, right? You’re just like, “Eh, not really.”

Kira Hug:  I didn’t know that.

Linda Perry:  I know. I did want to do it, I just didn’t know what I was doing. I had no idea what I was signing up for. I’m like, “Well man, these people are really cool” when I joined, but my business changed entirely. I started making a lot more money. I also had somebody to talk to about my business. I also got feedback on my copy. I couldn’t hide anymore. I couldn’t lie to myself. I also got to see a whole other path. But that’s a different discussion, but that’s what you guys support. And so I wouldn’t wait.

I also love you guys have a team now especially that does help focus on so many different aspects that you get an entire team to support you. How lucky is that? It is a one-stop shop place. And I will tell you, it’s been a real gift to be able to do mindset work because I’ve been watching them change. And the longer they’re in, you watch pro, then they’re leaving and you see them go to the next level of things even. It’s really what’s possible. And if you want to achieve your goals, I wouldn’t wait.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. That feels like a pretty good place to end. If you’re a fit for the Think Tank, absolutely don’t wait. Get in there. It does change businesses. You were a member once, you came back as a coach and you’re helping so many people just achieve amazing things. So aside from in the Think Tank, Linda, if somebody just wants to get on your email list or see some of the stuff that you’re sharing about mindset, where should they go?

Linda Perry:  Head on over to lindamperry.com. I also host Higher Ground: The Roundtable, which if you’re on my list, you’ll learn about it. But Higher Ground is a roundtable discussion where we talk about things in entrepreneurs really are going through. I am a hosting one in May. I’m probably going to host one or two in the summer. There’s just an opportunity to really come and connect with people and learn more about some of the struggles that you have. I also have a book on my website called Unstoppable. I’ll be working on updating that shortly. So that’s how you get on my list. And I do have a hundred plus episodes of the Mindset First podcast on there. If you do want to peruse and listen to things, there’s a ton of good stuff out there. And so I encourage anyone to look at that.

Kira Hug:  May be we should tell them not to listen…

Rob Marsh:  I was going to say listen, but don’t think that you’ve got enough, because that’s just step one.

Linda Perry:  You got to ask.

Rob Marsh:  Right.

Linda Perry:  It is.

Rob Marsh:  It’s just step one and execution that starts to happen in the Think Tank in the other programs that you run.

Linda Perry:  Yep. So awesome.

Kira Hug:  All right, thank you, Linda.

Linda Perry:  Thank you, guys.

Rob Marsh:  That’s the end of our interview with Linda Perry. Before we wrap things up, let’s add a few more thoughts about some of this stuff that we’ve been talking about, Kira. Anything jump out at you that you absolutely want to draw a line underneath and emphasize?

Kira Hug:  Yeah, I mean, one of them is around the stories we tell ourselves about the economy and just thinking about what we control. I think that is so important now more than ever to really exercise that muscle and focus on what you can do in front of you today without getting overwhelmed. Because it can feel really overwhelming when you lose a client here or maybe you’re not getting enough leads or maybe you put out an offer and it doesn’t quite land. But just focusing on, “Okay, what can I control today? What can I do with the resources I have that will make a difference?” and just building from there. Because we can all control something. And really, I think the writers who will be able to navigate through tough times are the ones who understand that and have that mindset.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, this is so key because we all deal with the same economy. You’re dealing in the same economy that I am. There may be some differences country to country, but so much of the work that we see happens in the United States, maybe the UK, Australia and the economic situation is very similar. And yet we’re still seeing some copywriters doing really well and they’re dealing in the same economy as some copywriters who are struggling. And so, it’s really important sometimes. And it’s not just the economy. There are lots of things that show up in our business this way, but it’s important to take a step back and saying, “Okay, if other people are succeeding here and I’m not, what is it that I’m doing that I need to change?”

And like you said, it’s about the stuff we can control. You can’t control whether clients are going to say yes or no, but we can control the number of clients that we send a pitch to, or we can control the way that we create an offer and the way that it might appeal to a different client set. Or we can control the niches that we work in. We can control the kinds of projects that we take on. So there are lots of different things. And if it’s not working, sometimes it’s a matter of not doing something and doing something else instead.

Kira Hug:  Yes. And we also talked about Linda pausing her podcast, which I didn’t know about until she shared that with us. I just think it’s so smart to really work backwards and figure out where your clients are coming from, what’s helping you bring in revenue and looking at all those activities to know what’s working for you and what’s not. And it almost sounded like the podcast wasn’t just not working for Linda, but it was working against her because for her type of work with mindset, people felt like they were getting enough or they didn’t need more. And so it is different for everyone depending on what you’re doing, but just looking at what’s working for you and being willing to analyze and even cut what might not be working for you.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, I mean it comes down to, are the activities that you’re doing in your business doing, getting the results that you want that you consider a success? It doesn’t always have to lead to clients or to money, but those are two of the big ones. If you’re spending a lot of time doing stuff that doesn’t actually bring in clients and you’re struggling to make your monthly number, then you should look at it and say, “Okay, maybe that’s not the activity that I need to be focused on. I should be focusing in on something else.” And decisions like pausing a podcast can be difficult. They can challenge some of the preconceptions that you’ve had about the business that you’re building or where you want to go in it, but at the end of the day, you want to make sure that it’s actually helping you reach your goals and accomplish the things you want your business to do.

Kira Hug:  We also talked about not doing something because someone else is doing it. And you and I have talked a lot about that on the podcast, but I feel like we can’t stop talking about it because we hear it all the time.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Yeah, it drives me nuts. I mean, I was really clear as you’re talking about this. Thing drives me crazy. And you’re right, we hear it from almost everybody.

Kira Hug:  And we will continue to say this, and I fall for it too. There are times I’ve told myself, “Well, I can’t do this thing because someone else is doing it.” But just if you catch yourself saying that, whether it’s out loud or if you’re saying it to yourself, just hit pause, reach out to us and come talk to us about it or talk to a colleague or a friend to just catch it and catch that moment where you might miss out on something you really want to do.

I mean, I can think of a copywriter recently who share something she was really excited about and a pivot in her business, but she was holding back from doing it because she knew another copywriter who was already doing that thing. And luckily, she’s worked through it because she’s smart like that and is now pursuing it. But I just think about all the different writers who are not working through it and have let go of different pivots or packages or niches or offers because someone else is doing it. So let’s just call each other out when we catch each other doing it, and Rob and I will not stop talking about it.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. You’re almost certain to hear more about it in a future podcast. So get yourself out there, start doing the thing that scares you. Start talking about the things that for whatever reason you want to talk about regardless of whether other people are talking about them or not.

Kira Hug:  And if someone else is doing it, reach out to them and be like, “Hey, maybe we could partner on this idea. Here’s what I can bring to the table. Here’s what I think you could bring to the table. Let’s partner.” And all they can say is no, but at least you reached out to build that relationship.

Rob Marsh:  When we were talking about vulnerability with Linda, I really appreciate one line. She said, “Share from the scab, not the wound,” which just hit home for me. I don’t know that we necessarily need to go really deep into this because what she said was so dead on, but when we’re being vulnerable, when we’re sharing the things that are going wrong, when we’re sharing failures, we just need to be careful that we’re not actually impacting our credibility. And having people that see that think, “Wow, this person is a mess.’ Or even if it’s not to that extreme, “This person isn’t quite where they need to be in order to be an expert.” It’s worth taking a step back like she advised and shared from the scab, not the wound.

Kira Hug:  I think there’s a spectrum there too, because everyone’s comfortable with different levels of vulnerability. And so for someone like me, I might be a little bit more comfortable sharing from a scab that is a little bit pussy and has a little bit of blood coming out of it and is oozing a little bit because I like to share when I feel that pain. But other people like to share when it’s healed and maybe you can barely see the scab and maybe it’s just a scar, and that’s okay. We all have different approaches. I think the important part is to be aware of what works for you and intentional about it so you’re not just sharing when it’s you’re in the moment and screaming with an agony unless that’s your intentional approach every time.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, and being aware of how it impacts your clients because it’s, again, especially if it’s client facing, if we’re sharing things about our business, going back to what we were saying about finding your why, it’s not really about us, it’s about them. It’s about our clients and how this story’s going to impact them. And if some of that pain is going to resonate with them in a way that makes that connection, lean into it. But be really careful that we’re not blowing up our businesses in order to chase vulnerability. So many people will quote Brene Brown on this kind of stuff, and it can be a minefield.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, this is how I know I’m a millennial because I’m like, “Well, it kind of is about me.”

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, it’s never about you or me.

Kira Hug:  I think it’s about me 80% of the time, but we’ll agree to disagree on that.

Rob Marsh:  We want to thank Linda Perry for joining us on the podcast to chat about her business and mindset and how she’s helping members of the Copywriter Think Tank to step outside of their comfort zones and accomplish more than they thought possible. You can hear Linda on previous episodes of this podcast, episode 108 and episode 234. They both feature Linda alone. And on episode 290, Linda’s just one of three guests. So check out those episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, you can find her coaching copywriters in the Copywriter Think Tank and also at lindamperry.com, which we will link to in the show notes. If you found this episode valuable, we’d love to hear from you. Head over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast to leave a review of the show. Tell us specifically the impact that this episode has had on your business, and we will share it in a future episode. And don’t forget to visit copywriterthinktank.com to apply to join that mastermind/coaching program that’s guaranteed to help you grow your business in new and amazing ways.

Kira Hug:  That is the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter, Addison Rice. Outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. If you are looking for another podcast, because you can’t get enough of Rob’s voice, check out-

Rob Marsh:  Hard to believe, but we have them.

Kira Hug:  Check out our AI Podcast all about artificial intelligence and how it’s impacting creatives like us at AI for creativeentrepreneurs.com. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next week.