TCC Podcast #443: Make Your Copy “Pop” with Sam Horn

Want your copy to stand out and get notice? Communication Specialist Sam Horn is my guest for the 443rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Sam talks about how to take “regular” ideas and make them “pop”. If you want to get noticed by potential clients, or want to help your clients get noticed by their customers, this episode is for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Sam’s LinkedIn
Pop!: Create the Perfect Pitch, Title and Tagline for Anything by Sam Horn
Tongue Fu by Sam Horn
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Want your copy to get noticed and remembered? There are a couple of simple tricks that will help you do that. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast.

The ability to help your clients get noticed and remembered is one of the main things they pay you for. And to find clients in the first place, you need to be able to get prospects to notice and remember you. If you can’t do this one thing… you really can’t help them with anything else because they never engage with you.

There are lots of psychological techniques that help people notice you… or help people remember you… or make people want to engage with you. So what are they? I asked communication specialist Sam Horn to walk through some of these techniques.

Sam is the author of the book Pop: Create the Perfect Pitch, Title, and Tagline for Anything. She walked me through a bunch of the tricks she uses to coin new phrases so her readers raise their eyebrows. One of the things you’ll notice as you listen is that Sam uses these techniques as she talks with me… you’ll hear rhymes, juxtapositions, cliches, and patterns that demonstrate exactly what she is sharing as we talk.

The ideas and insights we discuss go well beyond typical persuasion techniques like urgency and scarcity to create a more fun, human, and interesting connection between the ideas you write about and your audience.

This is a different sort of interview… because Sam actually workshops an idea for a presentation I am planning on offering to listeners of this podcast. As she goes through the ideas I share with her, you’ll notice she starts throwing out ideas and insights I might use when I’m ready to share my presentation. It demonstrates the insights she shares—especially her advice to show the shift as we communicate what we sell.

Near the end of the interview, Sam walked me through the questions she asks as she starts writing a book—and she’s written a bunch of them. If you’re thinking of writing a book yourself, some of these questions may be useful for you.

I think you’ll like what Sam has to share.

Before we get to my interview with Sam, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. Unless you are hitting the 30 second skip button when you get to this point of the show, you are no doubt familiar with The Copywriter Underground. I talk about it every week. The Underground includes more than 70 different workshops—and accompanying playbooks to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. The Playbooks make it easy to find quick solutions to the challenges you face in your business everything from finding clients, conducting sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn YouTube or Pinterest, and dozens of other workshops. You also get dozens of templates, including a legal agreement you can use with your clients, monthly coaching, regular copy and funnel critiques, and more. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.

And now, my interview with Sam Horn…

Sam, welcome to the copywriter club podcast. I would, I mean, I’m thrilled to have you here. You know, author of nine books, everything about language and communication. But before we get into all of that stuff. I would like to know how you got here. How did you become an author, speaker coach, I guess, an intrigue expert, and all of the other things that people have called you. 

Sam Horn: Okay, so how about I’ll go two places with that. Sound good? We’ll, we’ll start with the original origin story. Okay? Because I think our originality is in our origin story. So I grew up in a small town, more horses than people, and I was, like, elected as valedictorian of my class. A small town, big deal, right? So I put together my little graduation speech, and I shared it with my dad, who ran Future Farmers of America for the state of California. And you may know they understood speaking was very important. So I asked for his feedback, and he said, it’s an okay talk. He said, You just didn’t say anything I hadn’t heard before. It was the little bird leaving the nest homily, you know? And I said, But dad, there’s nothing original under the sun. And he says, of course there is. He said, You know what the definition of original is, if we haven’t heard it before. And you know, Rob, I at a very early age, I realized that if I’m going to ask people for their valuable time, mind and dime, it is my responsibility to create and craft something that they haven’t seen or heard before.

Rob Marsh:Okay, so that was origin number one, what’s origin number two. 

Sam Horn: Origin number two. You may know that I helped start and run the Maui Writers Conference. Writers digest said it was the best writers conference in the world, and we did something that was unprecedented at the time. You could jump the chain of command. You could pitch your screenplay to Ron Howard. You could pitch your novel.

People to the head of Simon and Schuster. I mean, that had never been done before. And after the first round, a woman came out with tears in her eyes. And I went over, I said, are you okay? She said, I just saw my dream go down the drain. And I said, what happened? She said, I put my 300-page manuscript on the table. The agent took one look at it and said, I can’t read all that, tell me in 60 seconds what it’s about and why someone would want to read it. And I talked with Bob Loomis, who was senior VP of Random House that night, and I said, Bob, I’m seeing a lot of people’s dreams go down the drain today. What’s going on? And he said, Sam, we’ve seen 1000s of proposals. We make up our mind in the first 60 seconds whether something is commercially viable. And Rob that next day, I stood in the back and I watched the pitch sessions, and I could predict who is getting a deal without hearing a word being said. Guess how 

Rob Marsh: I’ve got to guess that it’s in the look of the face of the person they were pitching—they were interested in something. 

Sam Horn: It gets really specific, the eyebrows. Because see, like, if we’re telling someone our idea, if we’re proposing something, if we’re pitching our book or whatever, if the decision makers eyebrows like, crunch up your eyebrows right now. Don’t you feel confused? Right? Confused, or like I’ve got to look into this deeper, maybe, or I don’t understand exactly. You know what’s going on here. Get you know that happens rarely, however. You know today’s attention span, right? If people don’t get it, they’re gone, right? So if people’s eyebrows are knit, furrowed, crunched up. It means they don’t get it and are confused. People don’t say yes. Now if their eyebrows don’t move, it means they’re unmoved, or they’ve had Botox.

Now, lift your eyebrows, if you would. Ah, do you feel intrigued? Curious? Like you want to know more. You know, I became a woman on a mission. I founded the entry agency. Because if we want other people to care about what we care about, we’ve got to turn info obesity into the eyebrow test. 

Rob Marsh: Okay, so let’s, let’s talk a bit about that, because this is not just so I’m thinking about this in two different ways. Number one, copywriters and content writers are working for clients, and the work that we do has to get the attention of their customers. Whatever we put out there has to get attention, otherwise it doesn’t work. But maybe even more importantly, before that can happen, copywriters and content writers have to get the attention of their prospects and their future clients, and if that doesn’t happen, they never get to write anything. So how do we do it? How do we get attention? 

Sam Horn: Well, as you know, there’s a whole book pop, and my book got your attention on that. So here are a few specific techniques. And by the way, rob your audience is copywriters. I hope they have 10 and paper right now, because we’re going to jump right in and I’m going to share techniques that have helped my clients, you know, get millions in contracts, deals, etc. So grab your pen and paper and…

Rob Marsh: I’m just going to underline that… you mentioned, Pop your book. Before we started recording, I said, I think this is one of the better books the writers ought to be using. It’s not really about writing so much as it’s about how to make your words pop, literally, the title of the book. So if you haven’t got it, we’ll link to it in the show notes. Make sure you pick up a copy. But yeah, let’s talk about some of those ideas. 

Sam Horn: Good. Well, let’s talk about how content writers and copywriters have two bosses, right? First, their decision maker, right, to get their attention and their favorable attention. Oh, I am here. Oh, that’s clever. Oh, yes, that will work. And then it needs to drive business, right? It needs to actually drive traffic to the store or registrations for the whatever. So I’ll give you a quick example of how we do this. Is that I believe, don’t repeat cliches, rearrange cliches, right? So whatever the topic or the product or the demographic is, we can just start writing down what do people know is true about this? What do they believe about this? You can just go to the cliche dictionary and put in what are cliches around this, right? But we’re not content to be common, because George Washington Carver said, when you can do a common thing in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world. 

So see, we take what is known, and our goal is to make it unknown. We take what’s familiar, we want it to be fresh. So Avon is an example they were going to hit. They were having their breast cancer walks, right? And they were looking for a tagline. So if you go to the COVID cliche dictionary and you put in, you know, walks, right? Well, they couldn’t find anything walk, don’t run, on and on. So now you look for cliches. It’s alphabetical order with a keyword that’s alliterative, that starts with the same sound or letter as yours. They came up with a wonderful slogan. Do you know what it is? 

Rob Marsh: I should know what it is. I don’t have it at the top of my head, though.

Sam Horn: It’s good things come to those who walk. Nice, right? You shift off weight. And now, when you’re close to what’s familiar, and you give that little twist, the eyebrows go up, right? You know how Einstein knew he had a good idea?

Rob Marsh: I’m guessing that it made his eyebrows go up.

Sam Horn: He laughed out loud, right? Because I know, when I’m working with clients, you know, I’m taking notes on what they’re saying. I’m inking it when they think it et cetera. And when the dots connect and I get a new entity, it’s like the eyebrows fly up and out comes this, aha, right? This bark of laughter. That means, Eureka, we have found something that’s worth pursuing.

From a psychological standpoint, the newness of the idea of a cliche that’s been changed a little bit. It’s almost like unlocking a puzzle and it clicks in your brain and it makes it stick, which is maybe another part of making sure that we’re memorable. In fact, in a moment I’ll get, I’ll share my formula for turning what’s forgettable into what’s repeatable and retweetable. Sound good?

Rob Marsh: Yes, let’s do it. 

Sam Horn: Let’s go back to your first question about another way we can make something pop—how we can pop out of the pack instead of get lost in the pack, how we can stand out from the crowd instead of get lost in the crowd. 

We’re going to Mary Oliver our life. I bet everyone who is part of your community understands that our life is our lab, right? We constantly have our antenna up and we Mary Oliver. She said, instructions for life, pay attention. Be astonished. Tell about it, right? Anytime we’re astonished, oh, isn’t that? I haven’t heard that before. It’s got potential, then we figure out how we can run with it so that it is practical and relevant and functional, going to drive results. So I’ll give you an example.

The University of Hawaii asked me to do a program and conflict resolution, uh, boring, right? And if we’re a bore, snore and unsure, it’s not gonna work. So I turned it into dealing with difficult people without becoming one yourself. Now that’s a good title, because it’s Alliterative. When you put it in a beat, you make it easy to repeat, right? So it’s dealing with difficult people without becoming one yourself. So that is it pretty good title. Here’s the thing, though, you go in and you put into search difficult people, 1000s of people, right? Speaking about that, hundreds of books. So see, it won’t pop out. It’s clever, but it still is not one of a kind. It’s still one of many. Well, I was very fortunate Rob, because at our first break, there was a gentleman in the front row. He didn’t get up to go get a cup of coffee. You know, go outside. He just sat there, gazing off into space. I was curious, and I went over. I said, What are you thinking about? And he said, Sam, I’m a real estate broker. He said, I deal with some very demanding and arrogant people. He said, I’m tired of it. He said, I took this course because I thought you were going to teach us some zingers to fire back at people and put them in their place. He said, that’s not what this is about. And I agreed, this is not about putting people in their place. It’s about putting ourselves in their place so we can respond with compassion instead of contempt. And he was the one who said, I’m a student of martial arts. He said, I’ve studied karate, taekwondo, judo. He said, what you’re talking about is like a verbal form of Kung Fu, isn’t it? Eureka, Tongue Fu, right? Tongue. Fu, an original word I was able to trademark that I’ve been able to merchandise and monetize it. It’s still selling around the world. It’s the one of the top business books in Turkey for 20 years, number three in South Korea, 20 years after it was published, they said it’s changing the patriarchy. 

Now, let’s put it into practice for your community, for everyone watching and listening is like, I hope you have a word bank. If you’re working with the client and they want you to sell a product or a service or a new launch, whatever, just come up with 20 words that you would use when frequently explaining that describing right? That’s your word bank. Now, alphabetize each word. Take a word, run it through the alphabet, changing the sound of the first syllable to match the corresponding letter. So see, let’s take Tongue, Fu, Un Fu, Bun, Fu, Sun. Fu, Done Fu…. So you go, Oh, Fun Fu, that’s how to handle hassles with humor instead of harsh words, Gung Fu, Gong Ho, Kung Fu, there’s a Lung Fu, Run Fu for when Tung Fu doesn’t work. Tongue Su for lawyers. It’s Young Foo for kids. Do you see how, if you take a core word, it’s meaningful to your client, you run it through the alphabet, you can come up with first of their kind words. Maybe can get the domain around it, you know, maybe have a one of a kind campaign about it all for just a little bit of brain work. 

Rob Marsh: I remember the first time I saw Tung Fu and also your title, talking on eggshells, those kinds of unique twists. I mean, immediately I just, I thought, That is freaking brilliant, you know. And it’s one of those things where I’m like, Man, I wish I had come up with that. It’s such a unique idea. But oftentimes, you know, we’re not, we don’t have the luxury of, you know, being in a conference with somebody, you know, talking back forth. Oftentimes, when we’re trying to come up with these ideas, we’re sitting at our desks, and it’s not always easy even, you know, with some of the tools that you’re sharing. Like, you know, alphabetize it or find the cliche Right. Like, so, how do we make ourselves more creative in these office spaces where sometimes the creativity is pulled out of us?

Sam Horn: Okay? Paper and pin right? Okay, put a vertical line down the center right now, because people say, Sam, how does your brain work? I juxtapose everything. Rob, it is the quickest way to make complex ideas crystal clear. Furthermore, my Got Your Attention book was published by Barrett Kohler, who is publisher of the year. A few years ago, Steve presente was the publisher. And I said, Steve, what is your criteria for publishing a book? He said three words, ready? Okay, show the shift. Show the shift. So everyone right now think of something, a campaign. They’re working on a client. They’re working with some type of copy they need to write over on the left, right now, put beliefs and behaviors that sabotage success all right—so put beliefs behaviors that sabotage success. Now over on the right. Put beliefs and behaviors that support success. So it’s sabotage on the left, support on the right. Now also on the left. Put compromise. You know, what are attitudes and actions that compromise our effectiveness? Over on the right? What are attitudes and actions that contribute to our effectiveness. So in a moment, we can do this for a campaign you’re working on, or you’re going to name your book, or something like that. We can play I’ll give you an example of how this works. Is that we just were talking about Tung Fu, so I gave a tongue food workshop for Kaiser Permanente, and I went back three years later as a patient, and when I walked in, the receptionist recognized me, and there wasn’t anyone in the lobby, and she beckoned me over, and she pointed, and her “words to lose words to use” reminder card was still taped to her desk. 

And now here’s the story. She said, Sam, they hired me because I’m the first point of contact. I’m pretty nice, and I never used to understand why people were so mean to me when I was so nice to them. And then I took your workshop, and I realized I was using all those words on the left, you know, well, I’d like to help you, but, well, you should have called earlier. I’m sorry, but I can give you an appointment right now, because you know he’s out, you know, he’s out of the office this week, whatever. So, and then replace it on the right. So what I’m telling everyone, if over on the left you have what doesn’t work and what does when you are writing copy, people read left to right. And furthermore, you know, if it’s long, they’re gone. So if we have a paragraph longer than four lines, people don’t read it. They skip it or skim it right. However, if we put over, you actually put a vertical line right down the center of a website. You put it down, right down the middle of a pitch, and over on the left is like, you know, you may think that did that, did up. Are you struggling with deduct? Did that? You know? Are you tired of deducted? Up, bullet, bullet, bullet, right? Because Rob, they can eyeball it. They don’t have to read it. They can eyeball it. Now we have, yes, that’s exactly what I’m thinking. Yes, that’s how I feel. Yes, I’m dealing with that. Would you like wouldn’t it be wonderful if? And now, here is the preferred behavior. Here is, you know, the solution to the problem, etc. However, here’s the thing. Is that if you write that out, you know, people’s attention span these days, they’re going to start skimming, scanning it, and they don’t. Get the shift right? They don’t get the Yes, that’s true for me. Yes, that’s happening in my life. Yes, that’s a problem for me. And they don’t get the AHA, the immediate gratitude, gratification, right? Of like, yes, I would like that. It’s the opposite of this, yes, that would be wonderful. And it’s, do you see how that framework can be used. I just used it for one example. However, I use it at the end of every chapter in every book, because it summarizes it, it reinforces it. And guess what? Now you have like a business card people put on their refrigerator, and they’re keeping you in sight, in mind, instead of out of sight, out of mind. 

Rob Marsh: This is a technique that should be familiar to copywriters anyway, because we are our very jobs depend on our ability to take somebody from the pain or the problem or, you know, the concern that they have right now, and help them see how the product or service that we’re writing about is going to produce a transformation, a result a better future, right? And so you’re basically saying, draw it out and use it, you know, as part of the brainstorming session, the naming, you know, in the thinking process, as we’re trying to figure out, okay, how do we stand out? 

Sam Horn: Yeah, you see, Rob, I knew that this would resonate with you, because it is part of what you do. And we talked a little bit in advance about infobesity, right? Everybody over on the left put infobesity won’t want, won’t want. Gone right? We can’t earn a living if we’re spewing in obesity. We’re not going to get deals. We’re not going to get results. No, we’re not going to earn our living. Over on the right is the eyebrow test. Okay? If, if, in that first 60 seconds, even someone who is skeptical or busy is now motivated to pay attention. So would you like a specific technique that that your community can use around that? Yes, please. Okay, so juxtapose it over on the left, put infobesity Over on the right. Put eyebrow test over on the left. Put tell, over on the right. Put ask. Now we both believe you give a real life example to show how this works in the real world. Then we unpack it, we reverse engineer it so it’s replicable, correct? Yeah. Okay, so here’s the real life example. I was pitch coach for Springboard enterprises, and they’ve helped female entrepreneurs generate 91 billion in funding and valuation contracts at this point. So Kathleen calendar was one of my clients, and she came to me, Sam, I got good news and bad news. I said, what’s the good news? She said, I’m speaking in front of a room full of inventors and investors at the Paley Center in New York. I said, that’s fantastic. I said, what’s the bad news? She said, I’m going at 230 and I only have 10 minutes. She said, Sam, you can’t say anything in 10 minutes. I said, Kathleen, you don’t have 10 minutes. You have about 60 seconds. 60 seconds. That’s right, they will have heard 16 other it’s 230 in the afternoon. Well, Rob, here is the 62nd opening we came up with that not only one. Kathleen calendar of pharma jet millions in funding. She was business week’s most promising social entrepreneur of that year. So now first perspective, infobesity on the left. Do you know how Kathleen used to introduce what she had invented her business, etc. Ready? I don’t, yeah, tell me. It’s a medical delivery device for subcutaneous inoculations. It’s a what look. Oh, no, those eyebrows, right? She just explained it. She told me what it was. And a lot of times it’s confusing, right? We don’t get it. We’re gone. Now listen to this 62nd opening ready. Did you know there are 1.8 billion vaccinations given every year? Did you know up to a third of those are given with re used needles? Did you know we’re spreading and perpetuating the very diseases we’re trying to prevent. Imagine if there were a painless one use needle for a fraction of the current cost. You don’t have to imagine it. We’re doing it. She’s off and running. Are your eyebrows up? 

Rob Marsh: Yeah. I mean, it almost sounds like the beginning of a TED Talk. 

Sam Horn: Well, hey, I work with a lot of people on their TEDx talks, or South by Southwest talks, the UN talks, or Davis talks. And I cannot tell you, you know, how many people are gone in the first 62nd this talk we’re going to it’s like, yeah, no. So you are right now. Let’s unpack it, because everyone watching, listening. I want you to think right now. In fact, Rob, what is something? Are you giving a presentation in the near future, or you have a campaign, what’s a priority? And we’re going to do this in real time. 

Rob Marsh: I don’t have a formal presentation coming up, but I am actually going to be working on a workshop on AI Artificial Intelligence and how to use it to create custom gpts for writers in their business. So basically, to help some of that repetitive task stuff get done by an AI, as opposed to having to go through that ourselves. Okay, so that was a pretty boring way to talk about my, my upcoming workshop. 

Sam Horn: Yes, well, we’re going to do, we’re going to go over to intrigue. We’re going to go over to eyebrows up, right? So, first, here are the three steps, so that everyone who’s listening and watching can do this for their priority while we’re doing it for your priority. Okay, step number one. What are three? Did you know questions you can ask with startling statistics that get eyebrows up and people are thinking, Where do I find these startling we just, we just Google it, right? It’s like, you know, and we need to put in what are surprising statistics about this demographic, about this product, about this problem. And our goal is, if we’re an expert and it’s like, oh, I didn’t know, is that bad? Oh, I didn’t know it’s getting worse. Oh, I didn’t know that many people being affected. I didn’t know it cost that much. I didn’t know it took that long. Do you see? Oh, right. Now, furthermore, since we’re asking instead of telling, we just turn this into a two way conversation instead of a one way conversation, right? Explaining is one way, you know, no, asking is two way right. 

Step two, use the word imagine. The word imagine pulls people out of their preoccupation, because they’re picturing our point. They are seeing what we’re saying. And when something confusing becomes clear, fact right over on the left, confusing, over on the right, clear. Do you know what people say when something comes confusing becomes crystal clear. I finally understand it now, or I get it. Oh, I see now, really, literally and figuratively, they see it now, right? That’s the power of that word imagine now link it still step two, link the word imagine with three benefits or advantages of what it is you’re recommending or requesting. For example, go back to calendar, you know, Kathleen. Think about her decision makers. What are they worried about? Thinking about? Well, they’re thinking about those reused needles, so we made it one use. They’re thinking about painful inoculations. We made it painless. Most decision makers care about money, so we made it a fraction of the current price. Do you see how, in a world of infobesity, we crafted a one sentence? UVP, unique value. Where people going sounds good. Who wouldn’t want that in one sentence? Right? And plus, there’s continuity, right? Because we’re referencing back what we said in the beginning, third step. Write down these words right now. You don’t have to imagine it. We’re doing it now you come in with your precedence and your evidence to show this isn’t pie in the sky. This isn’t speculative. This is a done deal. Here’s a testimonial from a satisfied client. Here’s some recent a recent article that talks about your company or about this, this new advance, right? 

So you’ve got the three steps. Now, let’s do it for you. All right. All right, okay, so the workshop. What’s your title of the workshop? 

Rob Marsh: I don’t have a title just because, again, I just started thinking about this earlier today, but I would probably say it’s something like how to create a custom GPT for copywriters. 

Sam Horn: Yeah, very basic, right. Okay, so we start there and now, Rob, how about we have an agreement and I do this with all my clients and audiences. If I say something, if it is in alignment with your vision, voice and values, you’re welcome to run with it. If I say something, you think, No. Doesn’t work for me, interrupt me, and we’ll tweak it or toss it, okay?

Rob Marsh: Okay, sounds great. 

Sam Horn: Okay, because I’m gonna jump in with both feet here. So how to something once again? How to what? 

Rob Marsh: How to create a custom GPT for your writing business, or for your copywriting business, for your writing business. 

Sam Horn: Okay, now I know you’re a copywriter, so there are pros and cons of how to right is, the pros, of course, is that people feel they’re going to get taught. And in the old days, a how to book was a business book was, you know, and there’s a promise of deliverables there. Well, in today’s infobesity world, sure, sometimes people don’t want to be taught, right? And how to if they’re low on bandwidth. So let’s see if we can play with that and and let’s use the word surprising, right? Not even seven, seven steps two, which is still prescriptive, still for someone who’s low on bandwidth is feeling like it’s eight o’clock. At night, I just don’t have the energy, but surprising ways, right? Unexpected. Do you see we’ve just up leveled it, we curated the content a little bit. Now we have a creative chat GBT for your business, but let’s put a verb in there. Is this growing? Is this scaling? Is this future proofing, what would be a verb that would pop that

growing is probably good. There’s also probably some ideas just around creativity or coming up with, you know, more options. So and growing kind of lends itself to that kind of an idea too, right?

Okay, all right. Now we’re playing, you know, this is, this is like word chess, right? We’re thinking a couple of moves ahead. So we have one option of using a verb, like growing your business. Now we’re back to what George Washington Carver said. He said, When you can do a common thing in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world. So we go back and you ask yourself, is growing charged enough, right? Is it? Is it got? Because John Carter, out of Harvard, said, You know what the number one prerequisite is for change? 

Rob Marsh: I don’t know what he said, no.

Sam Horn:  A sense of urgency. Okay, so does that have urgency? The word growing, right? Rob Marsh: Yeah, probably not, because growing your business is almost a cliche in itself, right? We’ve heard that now for 20 years. So it’s gonna fade in with everything else that’s out there. 

Sam Horn: Okay, now, by the way, this is why we ink it when we think it. You had a little pop opportunity there, because the cliche is, grow your business. Maybe you would say, flow your business, right? How to flow your business? Right? Now, that’s a LinkedIn blog, right? Because we’re riffing off what. And just like jazz musicians riff off common chords to make uncommon music. You could do that. So that’s an opportunity. Let’s come back here to no surprising ways to create chat, chat gbts. What did you use? Form systems? What? Well,

Rob Marsh: I said a custom GPT to get… 

Sam Horn: Yeah, custom GPT, custom GPT. Okay, is it, I’m just playing, is it a three step custom GPT? What is it?

Rob Marsh: It could be. It really depends on what process we’re trying to automate with the GPT. So it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s pretty easy to do, but you have to understand what it is that you’re building from start to finish. 

Sam Horn: I understand, and I also think we have an opportunity here, because a lot of people in this space, even in the title, we want people to say, I haven’t seen that before. It’s specific enough, if it’s pragmatic enough, it’s intriguing. It got my attention. And even in the title, I already have a little trust in faith that this is going to be an ROI, right? And as you know, numbers matter, right? It’s seven habits. Stephen Covey, you know, it’s four agreements, etc. So if you say surprising ways to create a customized three step chat. GPT, you know, or something like that. Do you see we up level the promise, a little bit in terms of the deliverable, all right. And now, now we’ve switched to to something your business. We need a bottom line. It is to and boy Rob, every day I fight not going over to the dark side, you know, because we know all the gimmicks, right? You know, just for today. Just count, you know, only for you. I try not to do that. I really try to be in integrity, honor, psychology, and do it in a way that I’m not pulling a bait and switch on people, right? So, now we come down to, it’s not just for your business, right? It’s for your business to do what, or for you to do what? Run with that for a second. 

Rob Marsh: Let’s say that we were building a custom GPT for a research process. When you talk about the three questions, the questions might be something like, do you realize, or did you know, the average copywriter spends 20 hours researching before they can even start writing? And then the promise of this GPT might be to reduce that from 20 hours to 10 minutes, right? That almost sounds like too big of a switch to be believable, but it literally can do that kind of a shift. So that kind of a promise. Now you can start to see, oh, now this opens up so much more opportunity for me to spend my time actually writing copy, creating the thing that I want to do, coming up with better ideas, right?

Sam Horn: I love what you’re doing. In fact, you’re already coming up with your three questions. So, did you know the average copywriter… we’re not going to say average copywriter, right? It’s in most copywriters, whatever. Most copywriters spend a minimum of 20 plus hours researching their project, their campaign, or something, right? That, Oh, wow. And now we’re going to go another. Did you know we’re not going to duplicate that? So what is something else that gets my eyebrows up? 

Rob Marsh: So another idea that might be interesting is the importance of the headline. So I think David Ogilvy is famous for saying that 80% of an ad’s punch or power comes from the headline, but most copywriters literally spend no time or only write one headline, right? So there’s a question that I would probably build around that idea where there’s not enough effort going into this one singularly important part of an ad sales letter, email, whatever. 

Sam Horn: That’s excellent, because, see, it’s like pearls on a necklace, right? It doesn’t just say the same thing a different way. It jumps to a whole new aspect, a whole new ROI win of this, right? So for you to say something like, do you know we’re just playing but do you know the majority of copywriters spend less than 60 seconds on their headline, when that can determine whether or not something gets read. I’m getting too long here, but we need to give that teeth, right, right? When that is the most important part of their campaign, or something like that, right? So, how would you craft that sentence with the metric, but the consequence of it,

yeah. I mean, this is the kind of thing that should take us hours to come up with. But, you know, you’re not putting your time on the most important task is really the idea that I want to get to.

Okay, so since this is our first chance to get them, we’re going to say 20 hours, you know, research, you know. Did you know that most copywriters spend seconds on their headline not understanding it can undermine everything they’re trying to do, or something like that, right? We need that consequence now. What’s the third? 

Rob Marsh: I’m not sure exactly how to word this, but I would probably be asking a question around the fact that this is an artificial intelligence tool, and most of us don’t know how to use them to get the results that make them effective or make them usable. So you know, maybe the question is, did you know that you could use an AI tool to do all of this for you in minutes, or to get the kinds of results that it would take us hours to get before something along those lines? And again, I know I’m being too wordy here, too, but that’s the idea we draft and then we craft, right? So now we’re going to save that for the imagine, right? Because that’s when Imagine if you could do all that in seconds. Imagine if you could get better results. So that’s part of our imagine. We’re going to come back to this and and did you know something about, did you know many copywriters are using AI generators ineffectively and inefficiently, you know, and in a way that actually sabotages their success, or something like that, right? 

Okay, so see, boom, boom, boom. Now, imagine if there were a way for you to use AI effectively and efficiently to to reduce your research from 20 hours to and it’s nice to do 20 hours, 20 minutes, you know, or 10 minutes. So it’s alliterative, you know? And the next one was headline, and could generate commercially viable, clever headlines that would never have occurred to you otherwise, or something like that, right? 

Imagine it. That’s what we’re going to cover in our 60 minute workshop, or that’s what I’m going to cover in this Youtube series or something. And look at all that you’ve done in 60 seconds.

Rob Marsh: I really like this process because, like you were saying at the very beginning, everything fades into the background. And it only takes an idea to show up one time before it’s copied endlessly. And so thinking about this stuff over and over, every time you relaunch a product, every time that you show up on stage, it’s almost like you need to go through this process again just to make sure that it still stands out, that it still catches attention. And that it’s not becoming the cliche. All cliches were original once, but by the fifth or sixth or 100th time we see it, now it’s the cliche and and we ignore it again.

Sam Horn: I tell you, we cannot rest on our creative laurels. The good news is it’s an intellectual Disneyland, you know, Katherine Graham said to do what you love and feel that it matters. How could anything be more fun? So see, I take my notebook everywhere with me. I mean, I’m out on a stream trail walk. I got my notebook, you know. And so when, when I hear something that gets my eyebrows up, I write it down, or I record it to capture it in the moment, because they don’t call them fleeting thoughts for nothing. And if we do that, this becomes a skill. And I tell you, for me, it’s permanent employment, because AI cannot do this in and cannot do it in the moment in a unique way that at least give someone a competitive edge. I’ll give you an example. I’m speaking at conscious capitalism, and when I do a book signing, normally, you know, people stand in line and they clutch their book and they don’t talk to each other. And if you talk to a couple people, they leave because it’s going to be too long before we get to them, right? So I always form a little community, and we brainstorm, strategize people’s projects. So here’s a man, it gives me my question is always so you know, what are you excited about achieving this year? So it makes it topical and timely. And so this man said, Well, I’d like to do more paid speaking. I said, Great. I said, What’s your topic? He said, leadership. I said, Uh oh, right. Common topic, 1000s and 1000s. So if he wants to get more paid, speaking on leadership, even if he has a great platform of credentials, there’s still 1000s of people out there. So juxtaposing over on the right is his topic leadership. 

Now I ask another question I ask all my clients. It’s like, what do you do when you’re not working, right? Because if you’re a pilot, if you play pickleball, you know, if you ride horses, if you coach or whatever, he said, I host salons where we do Shakespeare sonnets. Well, that’s interesting, right? Yeah, that’s different, right? So there’s potential there, right? So the way my brain works, because I have integrated all of these processes. So it’s just how I roll these days, I’m thinking, okay, a Shakespeare leadership, Shakespeare leadership. Oh, and I Einstein laugh. I laughed out loud. I mocked up a book cover, and I said, okay, I’m going to show you in the group something, and if you like it, go to GoDaddy right now, because if no one has taken this, you just got yourself a million dollar brand name book title and presentation title, all in seconds. I said, ready, and I showed it to him, and it said to lead or not to lead. Guess what? Rob, no one had that in all these years of speaking and writing about leadership, no one had ever said to lead or not to lead. So the next day, he came back grinning from ear to ear. Got that for 12 bucks, and it’s because we’re using these processes, and it’s not hard work, Rob. It is great fun.

Rob Marsh: We could talk about these techniques all day long. It’d probably be better for people just to buy the book and, you know, to start going through them. But you also started talking about how you’ve made this your career. Can we talk a bit about this with I mean, we’re just talking about this AI workshop. A lot of people are threatened by AI. I’m tempted to think that AI can help with some of this kind of thinking. But what are your thoughts on this, and what we as creatives bring to the table? You know, if I wanted to be the next Sam Horn, you obviously are filling that role, so there’s no need for another Sam Horn. But if Rob Marsh wanted to do some things like what Sam Horn does, helping people come up with ideas, helping people stand out with their messaging, and really tightening it up like that. What do we need to bring to the table so that we’re not replaced by the content bots?

Sam Horn: Okay, so in a moment, we’ll talk about AI, because I understand you’re using it and almost as part, oh, is using it ethically, right? Using it efficiently. So we’ll get to that in a second. However, the answer to the first question is to Rod Laver your career. Now, what are you a tennis player? By any chance, Rob:

Rob Marsh: I wouldn’t call myself a tennis player. I’ve played tennis. I’ve played pickleball. I enjoy tennis. Let’s say that… I wouldn’t call myself a player. 

Sam Horn: Well, you’re a pickleball player, and Rod Laver, as you may know, won the Grand Slam of Tennis twice. So the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon, and the US Open, I had the previledge of working with Rod Laver on Hilton Head Island. So we would put on tennis camps, national tennis camps, and he would be showing someone how to volley, and he would go, it’s like this. People go, flop, flop, flop, flop. He looked at him. Was like, No, it’s like this. You know, crisp, crisp, crisp, crisp, flop, flop. See, it had been so long, Rob since he had gone back and even thought about the mechanics, right? He just thinks, no, you know what? He’s playing tennis, chess. Okay, they’re over there. I’m going to pull him out of position. I’m going to drop it. 

Rob Marsh: You know all that curser of knowledge we forget what it’s like to be new at something. 

Sam Horn: We’re going to remember it because there in lies the key to our organic creativity. So I’m going to ask people when they get an idea, when they come up with a Winning Campaign, when they get a yes to a project that they take a few minutes to reverse engineer it. All right, how did I turn that skeptic into a believer? How did I get that amount of money for that contract right? Because if we start staying alert to our process, and if we codify it so it is replicable, we make shortcuts available to others. So what can AI not do? Ai can’t be in your life where, where you’re reading something and the passage lights you up, and your mind riffs off it and comes up with something in the moment that’s relevant to your audience or your campaign or whatever. And you write about that because you’re first to market with it now, unfortunately, people run with it these days, you know, but you were there first, and at least you can leverage the originality and the creativity and get known for doing it for your clients, because you have developed that muscle and that ability and that way of having your own organic creativity and just feeding it into a machine and letting them do it for us and have cognitive creative decline. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah, it makes total sense. Obviously, we have to have the experiences that we bring to the table in order for this to even have a starting point, right?

Sam Horn: It’s so funny you say that because, okay, 60 second story, but it really does have a point. So I just finished a very intensive consult and my son, Andrew called, and he sensed something in my voice, and he said, what’s up, mom? I said, Andrew, I’m so exhausted I don’t know how I’m gonna get on that plane tonight. I’ve got to fly back to DC, back to San Francisco in a couple days for a keynote. I don’t know how I’m going to do it. Well, thank heaven for Andrew, because he said, Mom, there’s something about you I don’t understand. You have your own business. You can do anything you want, and you’re not taking advantage of it. Well, out of the mouths of 20 somethings.

I gave away 90% of what I owned, and I took my business on the road for a year by the water, and I interviewed people, and it ended up being, you know, some days, not a day in the wake book. Here’s the thing. The phrase right now is like, Oh, I couldn’t take time off work, right? Right? Not taking time off work. It’s taking time on life, right? See, I went places. I swam in Walden Pond, you know? I swam with Zach the dolphin. I sailed the Chesapeake Bay, right? All these new experiences. I’m riffing off them. I’m interviewing people. Are you happy? If so? Why? If not, why not? I’m codifying their answers so I have anecdotal evidence. Wrote a book: Someday is Not a Day of the Week, speaking on that. Now, before I went, I announced that at the National Press Club, and three people came up to me afterwards, and one said, Sam, are you sick? Because, see, she was assuming I had to be in my deathbed to do something like,

right? This is that bucket list trip that. I’m on a mission to change people’s mind. The next one said, Sam, is this a midlife crisis? I said, No, it’s midlife clarity and and the third was a big investor from Tiger 21 and he said, Sam, you better not let this story get out, because if your clients and meeting planners find out you’re off the grid, you’re going to be out of sight, out of mind, and you’re going to come back and your business won’t be waiting for you when you’re ready for it. So I had kind of a crisis of conscience. 

I am risking everything I built for the last 30 years. Was this frivolous, right? And what I discovered is, what you and I are talking about is when we intentionally immerse ourselves in an intriguing life, we meet people where we haven’t met before. You know, we are going places we haven’t been before, and we marry all over it. We are coming up with creative observations inside. Epiphanies, and we become known for that, and once again, it’s H, I, human intelligence, and not AI,

Rob Marsh: Once you have that baseline, though, that’s what AI actually can help magnify, because now AI can help us make some of those connections, because it’s so good at looking at massive data, and our brains are really good at focusing on somewhere between one and seven things at a time or whatever. And so when you can marry a wide range of experiences like that and start to use AI to find some of those connections, and then that spurs even more H, I human intelligence as we’re thinking about it. That’s where the power of that tool works with us to produce great work.

Sam Horn: I guess you can tell I’m a little bit on a mission around this. And here’s why, you know, I’ve got a pretty good community on LinkedIn. And I would say 95% of the content on LinkedIn these days is AI generated, yeah, and you know that that lib Jen and made a took millions of books without permission, without attribution and without compensation. They took nine of my books, they just fed it into AI. Thought leaders that I really used to respect are using regurgitated content that does not belong to them, it’s on the backs of other people’s proprietary AI that was not compensated, no respect to copyright law. So you and I both agree that AI can be an efficient tool when used ethically and before we relegate our original thinking to a machine that we become reliant upon so we cannot do it ourselves. You and I are talking about longevity and about the ethics of our trade, and furthermore, the intellectual Disneyland of getting good at this, because it is our sustainability, right? If we rely too much on AI, we are one of many if, if we really want to be doing this five years from now, 10 years from now, and people cannot compete with us because they’ve lost the ability to do this, then, then we are doing it, I believe, for all the right reasons. And I’m a business woman. So I’m not just talking about doing this ethically altruistically, you know. I’m talking about with my business head on and with my individual head on, that we make a commitment. You know, we talk about Rod Laver. Rod Laver spent 1000s of hours working on his fitness and on his strokes, etc. The equivalent in our industry of copywriting, creative content, etc, is that we continue to put in our 10,000 hours. We don’t abdicate it or delegate it.

Rob Marsh: I don’t think that the US Open would be the same if we had two robots hitting tennis balls to each other. It might be kind of fun to watch for a minute or two, but without the back stories, without the effort, you know, without all of the things that go into making those players human, we lose a lot. Well, we only have a few more minutes. I’m actually really curious about your writing process. So as I’ve gone through a couple of your books, it feels to me like you’re a bit of a collector. You’re always collecting quotes and ideas, and then somehow they all come together as a book. When you’re ready to sit down and write, we just talk about how you approach a project like that. How do the ideas for books occur to you? And then how do you go about making them happen?

Sam Horn: Okay, well, two, there are two questions there. One about, how do books occur to me, etc? We’ve all heard pick a lane, right? We understand that, you know, the riches are in the niches, etc. And I understand that I just have elected not to do that, you know what? Because I, quite frankly, I like being more of a renaissance creative, you know. So I write about Tongue Fu. I write about what’s holding you back, about ConZentrate, about Take the bully by the Horns, about Talking on Eggshells, Pop, etc. Because I have elected to move on and explore topics that I think are tangibly useful to us as human beings. When I write about them, they’re not saturated. I don’t read other people’s books on my topic, because I don’t want to wake up at three 3am with a great idea. It’s not my idea, it’s Stephen Covey’s idea, right? So this is organic process. So once I come up with the topic that’s congruent, it lights me up. I feel it’s not saturated. I think that it will add value. Then I Mary Oliver my life. I really like street interviews Rob. I talk with almost all my Uber drivers, and I talk with people and I. Ask questions. In fact, I have a 10 W quiz when I’m going to do a deep dive into a topic, you know? So, let me ask. Let me do it for you again. What are you working on a book right now? A new book? 

Rob Marsh: Oh, I’ve always got like, five or six ideas for books. So, yeah. So, of course, I’m always working on something.

Sam Horn: Okay, so like, what’s one of the working titles or topics of your books? 

Rob Marsh: Let me give you the title that I’ve recently outlined. So I want to help writers build their authority, because again, it’s really hard. You know, when there’s a million copywriters out there, it’s hard to not just capture attention, but to get people to trust you if you don’t have some kind of authority attached to your name or business.

Sam Horn: Excellent. Okay, so this is our topic—trusted writer authority, right? Developing ways, you know, a 10 week, way 10 step seven step, way whatever, to establishing your trusted writer authority. All right. So now, if we were going to do the 10 W quiz that you do everywhere you go, and you’re thinking, well, this waitress isn’t a writer, oh, but she could have a wonderful insight, right? Sure. So the first question is always, what is the definition of this? Because you could interview 10 people and they’re going to give you 10 different answers for what it means to have trusted writer authority, right? Yeah, for sure, that’s number one. So we have clarity around our terms, and it may be very you have yours however you honor other people’s interpretations of it. So you’re bringing them along from the get go, and you’re asking, right? 

All right. Number two is like, so who is a walking, talking role model of this, right? So let’s go to your benchmark. Who do you think is exhibit a shining example of this? 

Rob Marsh: Historically, probably the best is David Ogilvy, who is the one copywriter who’s ever lived that was, you know, on nighttime, you know, television shows, pretty much everybody knew who he was, right? 

Sam Horn: I love that because, see, you already started to unpack it. He did what I call he jumped the genre, right? He wasn’t just an ad guy. He was his business guy, who’s a visionary. He was a thought leader all that, right? And a very elegant and classy guy too, right? 

Okay. So see, you already have in your mind what it took and what your values are. Do you see how one question is like a little war shark test, right? It’s like, okay, I want to jump the genre. I want to be an elegant, classy guy. I want to be a thought leader in my space, right? So do you see one question, who is a benchmark, who’s an exhibit or a poster child of this? Just reveals so much. Now, question three, who is not a role model of this? Who is the opposite of that? Now, who might that be?

Rob Marsh: So this is a starving writer who’s operating at a content farm. They’re working for pennies per word, or even less. They’re struggling because people don’t know who they are. So even if they do reach out to prospects, they get ignored because they’re not familiar.

Sam Horn: See, do you see you hear your copywriting itself, don’t you?

Rob Marsh: For sure? Yeah. I’ve thought quite a bit about, you know what, what needs to go into the book. So some of those answers are maybe coming a little easier for me than somebody who might be thinking through a different idea at the moment. But I totally get how this process leads you to an outcome.

Sam Horn: And look, content and context, right? Because we’re not just coming up with benchmarks, who you can reference throughout the book with attribution. You know, by honoring them, you are context. You’re once again, coming up with values of all the people you could have picked. Here’s the criteria, our ingredients that are meaningful to you. Now we go to who, you know, who does not do this. Now the copy is, once again, we go back to the you know, are you working at a content farm? Are you getting pennies or whatever? Do you struggle to make your copy, you know, land, a deal or something? So see, you’re now. 

The next question is, when is a time you had trusted writer authority? Put me in the scene where you think, yep, that’s what that looks like.

Rob Marsh: So me specifically as the author of this book?

Sam Horn: Yeah, because we’re working on your book. 

Rob Marsh: Okay, so that probably happened in 2018 when we launched our first ever event, invited about 18 other well known copywriters tto come join us on stage. And because they’re there, several of whom were A-list Copywriters, literally making hundreds of 1000s of dollars, maybe even more. And because we’re there on the stage with them, everybody in the audience is saying, You, we recognize. You are part of this illustrious group,

Sam Horn: As the curator of the group, the organizer of the group, right? So it’s definitely, as you said, it’s not just status that you’re one of them. You’re actually the convener of them, right, right? That goes in your book, too, right? Because if you’re talking about, you know, establishing trusted writer authority. And you reference an event where you convened the authorities, boom. That’s instant authority for you, right, as a thought leader in the space, someone respected, etc. 

Now the next question, when is a time you didn’t…

Rob Marsh: I mean, there are a lot a lot of examples of that, but when I have felt frustrated, you know, reaching out cold pitching clients or cold pitching prospects, not clients, because they weren’t becoming clients, you know, worried that I was, you know, going to run out of money before. You know, somebody said, yes, those kinds of experiences, and yeah, there that’s happened, you know, at various times in my career.

Sam Horn: And now see, as you know, for writing to resonate these days, we need to be relatable, and that often means being vulnerable, right? It’s not just all our success stories. And then I did this, and then I did this, it’s like, well, in that time I didn’t get that, that contract I was counting on that time I walked out of the room and I knew the answer was going to be no, right, right? So we can share honestly the times that it did not work out, and then we reverse engineer it. And I realized, you know what, I did most of the talking. And my mom used to say, whoever does the most talking has the most fun, you know. And my goal in a pitch is that they do 70% of the talking, you know, and I do 30% and I did something like that, right? Okay, so it pulls out a real life story. We’re vulnerable and relatable and honest and true and accessible, not just the expert. We’re accessible. People now feel okay, right? If you’re going to go first, then I’m going to do it too. You just gave me permission to be honest, instead of perfect, right? Yeah. So the next question is, Why is it important for us to be a trusted writer authority?

Rob Marsh: Well, it leads to better clients, higher paying projects and more opportunities so that we can have, you know, the things that we want in our lives, whatever that looks like. You know, more time with family, more time to travel, you know, what? Again, to reach our goals. Sam Horn: So I’m sure that you codify that, right? So here are all the benefits. Here are all the advantages here, all the bottom line. ROI, and now, guess what the next question is,

Rob Marsh: I’m not sure I can. Is it going to be something around you know, how do you get there?

Sam Horn: Almost. It’s… why don’t we do that? If we know it’s a career maker, if we know it’s what people want, if we know that it’s important, then why aren’t we doing it? So now just speculate. If people go, I know it’s important, but I can’t do it because I don’t have an MBA. I can’t do it because… whatever. What would be three or four reasons that are the barriers to entry?

Rob Marsh: Number one is always going to be confidence. You know, I don’t believe that I can do it. I’ve never done this before. Another one would be, I don’t have the connections or the network that successful people do. A third one might be, I’m not sure that I know enough about the thing that I’m doing. So because I’m talking to copywriters, content writers, they’re thinking I’m not sure that I know enough about copywriting to be able to lead and say I can get this done for my clients. And closely related to that, even if they have done it, maybe they don’t have, they don’t feel like they have the proof that they can deliver on the promises that they want to make. 

Sam Horn: So see, the book is writing itself, again, isn’t it? You can see a chapter, once again, you codify that, because it’s like you become a docent of your body of work. You say, Well, in my 20 years of working with copywriters from all around the world, from countries like this and this and this, from, you know, multi million dollar copywriters to people just getting started. Do you know what I’ve discovered? Right question, two way conversation reveal right is that here are the seven most frequently given reasons that are barriers to entry, that people think it’s not an option for them, and when you codify it, if you don’t name it, you don’t own it, right? So if this is just in paragraph form, people do not perceive its proprietary and they will either skim or scan it, or they’ll run with it. If it’s your name. The seven reasons why people don’t whatever. At least scrupulous people will honor your name that this is codified proprietary IP, and they will reference you now, and it’s positioning you as an expert, all because you’re reporting back on your discoveries and your anecdotal data, right? Yeah, all right, then you know, when I bet you go to conferences and like, the first question is, so what’s a challenge you’re facing? And it’s like there’s something called the evolution of intimacy, folks. And if the first question is to tell us what’s wrong with our life, that’s like a breach. To me. It’s a breach of trust. It’s a one down. I just put you down. My first question to you was, what’s wrong with you in your life?

Rob Marsh: Nobody likes starting with a failure.

Sam Horn: Exactly. So see now, even in this quiz, we honor that human understanding of honoring people, and we say, so what’s your best pest? Best piece of advice, right? What have you learned if you’re going to give advice to someone starting out in this career, you know, even if you’ve only been in it six months, what is something you’ve learned that’s a non negotiable? So let’s honor their intelligence and their expertise, right? And give them an opportunity to contribute your thoughts. I can see you. You’re about to say something.

Rob Marsh:  So this isn’t necessarily my thinking in the book, but I’m getting this from potential readers and then reflecting that book back inside the book, correct?

Sam Horn: You just said something so important, because, once again, I don’t read other people’s books, right? So when I wrote Tongue Fu, I didn’t read all the books under the sun. On conflict resolution. I interviewed moms, I interviewed lawyers. I was doing so many public workshops at that point. So when people would come in, well, I agree with you, but you don’t work for my boss, you know? And then they tell a story, and then we talk about how we could turn around. And many times they would get back in touch with the success or with what happened, with their permission, I use those stories so you are right. This isn’t a way to generate original content through interviews, where we’re asking people for their best practices, their interpretations. And guess what? Now you look at your book, it’s not a one voice book. It’s not one person sharing your recommendations or success stories. It’s like, you know, it’s a single mom of three kids, you know, it’s the multi million dollar CEO. And it makes the book more relatable, real and one of a kind, because it’s not a one voice book, yeah, yeah.

Rob Marsh: It makes a ton of sense. So is that all of the questions?

Sam Horn: Number number nine and number 10, what do you know that I’m going to do a workshop on this, or I’m writing a book? What is something we could discuss in this book that would really be worthwhile, right? Yeah, and Rob you and I’ve been doing this for a while, it makes my day when someone says, Well, you know what I’m dealing with. Or, you know this happened? Yes, someone was teasing me, and they said, can’t you take a joke? And I It felt so wrong, and I just didn’t know what to say, you know. So ask people, What could we cover in this book that would make it, you know, worthwhile reading? And they will, they’ll give you the answers to the test, won’t they? Right? And now, once again, you’re monitoring your answers. Maybe all the answers are about money, and maybe you’re going to talk more about content or business stuff, but you realize, seems what everyone cares about is money, so I better stack the deck and put that first right. Because if I think I’m going to talk about money in the last third of the book after this. No, no, they just told you that’s not their priority. They won’t wait for the last third of the book.

Rob Marsh: And the final question.

Sam Horn: Final question is, Who do you recommend I interview on this? Okay? And it’s so wonderful, Rob. Because, you know, people say, Well, John Mackey, who is founder of Whole Foods, gave the cover endorsement of my Talking on Eggshells book. So I had interviewed Mickey Agarwal for the book, and I said, Who else do you think would be a great interview? And she said, Well, John Mackey would be great. Well, I interviewed John and he ended up giving the cover endorsement for the book. So, boy, is that a payoff. 

Rob Marsh: That’s fantastic. You. I mean, you’ve given me two workshops in this one interview. Amazingly helpful for me, but also just seeing inside your process and the way you think, the way your brain works. I know I’ve mentioned the book Pop a couple of times. I honestly think that copywriters, content writers, this should be on the shelf, because when you are looking for ideas and how to stand out, just the tools that you give in the book, we’re getting my mind thinking I you know, as I’m reading through the book, I’m hopping online, looking for cliches, for ideas that. I work with things that I’m thinking about, and so we’ll, like I said, We’ll link to it in the show notes. But if somebody wants to follow you, Sam, get you know, in touch with you, or even come and hear you speak someplace, where should they go so that they can get inside your world?

Sam Horn: Well, first, I really hope that we connect on LinkedIn, that’s my life. It’s my lab and and often, at least once or twice a week, I’m on LinkedIn sharing something that just happened in a riff off of it, or a technique. One of my clients just got back in touch and said, Wow, look at how this works. So check me out on LinkedIn. Sam Horn, Intrigue Agency on LinkedIn, and then on my website. You know, we’ve got our clarity weekends where people come and do a deep dive into what they want clarity about, or my coaching or and I do love to speak for groups. So if they’re saying, Wow, we should have her come in and speak to our group, reach out to me. It’d be wonderful to hear from you.

Rob Marsh: Thanks so much, Sam for just sharing so much of your knowledge and your ideas. And I’m really looking forward to sharing this with our audience.

Sam Horn: Thank it’s a joy. Kudos to you for the work you do.

Rob Marsh: Thanks to Sam horn for walking through several of the techniques that she talks about in her book pop. I have links to her book in the show notes, and highly recommend you pick up a copy if you want to get better at attracting and keeping attention. I’m especially grateful that she took real ideas and worked through them a bit. We talk a lot about ideas on this show, but actually working through them live shows a different level of application and helps you, the listeners, see how to apply the insights that she shared on the show. Again, Sam’s book does a lot of this and is worth putting on your shelf.

When it comes to getting attention, there are a couple of workshops inside the copywriter underground on creating hooks and writing great leads that will help you grab attention so you can move your prospects from where they are to where they need to be in order to buy the products and services that you write about. You can find those workshops and playbooks at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Be sure to check out the links in the show notes, get Sam’s book and connect with her online.