That Sounds Fun with Annie F. Downs - What If We Actually Prayed the Way Jesus Taught Us? with Matt Smallbone- Episode 1037

Hi friends and welcome to another episode of that sounds fun, spiritually stronger. I'm your

host Annie F. Downs and I'm so happy to be here with you today as we continue wildly talking

about the Lord's Prayer. We've got a bit of a theme going on here. Yes, we meant to talk

about prayer, but yeah, this is just very fascinating how this has all played out. So today on

the show, I get to talk with my friend one of my favorite pastors, Pastor Matt Smallbone. You

may recognize that last name because we've had some of Matt's cousins on the show Joel and Luke

Smallbone from Freaking in Country and his cousin Rebecca St. James. So I'm clearly a big fan of

all the small bones including my buddy Matt. He is the pastor of Church of the Cities downtown

campus here in Nashville and here's what happened. He wrote an entire book about prayer and I was

like, well, this is perfect. It's coming out in a couple of weeks. I would love to talk to you

about it. And then when I got it, it was about the Lord's Prayer. And so I thought, okay,

wow, we're going to trust this. Every time we talk about it during this prayer series, every time

we've talked about the Lord's Prayer last week and this week, I feel like there's something new to

see and something deeper to understand. It's been fascinating to me how a prayer that's so familiar

and so memorized by so many of us, so repeated can still be so surprising. So today's conversation

feels very on theme and right on time. His book is called The Prayer Experiment. It comes out in

April. You are going to love it. You can go ahead and pre-order now. But whether the Lord's

Prayer is felt old or overly familiar to you, I think this conversation like last weeks with Brad

Gray and Brad Nelson is going to breathe fresh life into it. I'm curious if you're like me and

prayer is just kind of fallen into your new habits in the morning. I'm trying to do that every day.

We're unpacking more of it over on spirituallystronger.com too. So join us over there as we process this

together. Okay, here's our part two about the Lord's Prayer. I don't know. Here's a continuing

conversation that the Lord has laid out for us with my friend Pastor Matt Smallbone.

Pastor Matt Smallbone. Welcome to that sounds fun. Hi, Annie. I am sorry it's taken us this long

to get you here. We have been a Jason lived adjacent lives in Nashville for I've been back here for

12 years. Yeah, so the entire time. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I've known you most of that. When I first

moved here, everyone was like they because we're both sevens and any Graham was just hitting.

Everyone's like, you know, Annie, and I'm like, I don't know if it's any. There's the seven who I'm

going to love. Don't tell me who I'm going to love. Yeah, you can't boss me. Man, I'm so glad you're

here today. Thank you for doing this. Everyone is going to recognize the last name because we've had

multiple family members of yours on here. Cousins with for King and Country. Yeah, John Luke. Yeah.

Cousins with Rebecca St. James. Yeah, I was her first bass player in 1997. That's my first

trip to America. No way. Yeah, a lot of fun. They needed a cheap bass player. Did they show that

in the movie? Yeah, I was like, did they say it was you? No, it's no, but I got a disproportionate

amount of airtime for the three months I was here in that story. What was it like going watching?

I mean, you live that with your family. What was it like to have a movie that your cousins made about

that time and everybody's like, it's all being sort of made it kind of a couple now. Yeah, it's

it's really it's first of all, it's cool just seeing the family at that that story being told.

And so a lot of that stuff I was living in Australia. Yeah, it was happening. So

and then Uncle Dave called to see if I could come play this all about God tour with Rebecca.

So I kind of, you know, it was bass player, but we're setting up all sorts of things for her as

well and really being her support. She was I'm 19 days older than her. Okay. So our joke is always

like I was fixed. I was fixating on objects way before she could even see stuff out. I've always

been a little further further down the path than she is. So we were best friends growing up,

but then they left Australia when we were, you know, 12 or 13. Yeah. And then she became famous

and out of nowhere. Yeah. So it was so watching all these moves is I'm unbelievably fun. You have

famous actors playing your grandpa and those are the hard things for me seeing someone play

grandpa small bone. Yeah. It's just like tend to cry a bit. Yeah. I remember when we were at that

early screening of unsung hero, I remember almost all the family was crying. Yeah. And I was like,

y'all, wow, this is like still feels very fresh to everybody. It's just it's a beautiful story. I

mean, we know it well. Obviously, I think there's just something about seeing someone play family

members and and you know, we we're in Australia. This is obviously pre-internet when all this

going down. So it actually kind of in some ways painted the behind the scenes for me as well.

But it's, you know, they're remarkable folks, you know, every now and then you feel like a

bit of a loser because you haven't won a Grammy or something like you know, like family dinners and

stuff like that. How did you end up a pastor when you started a bass player? You could still be

anywhere bass player for for King and Country. Yeah. So I was also in the movie playing for them

for the one I played one show with them. So it all worked out. It all worked out great. So how

why pastoring? I realized so I ended up touring with with Michael W Smith. So I moved up with an

Australian band and back back was kind of winding down for the first time as as I came over. So

moved over with with an Australian band, Alibaster box and then ended up touring with Michael W Smith

for a number of years. As a bass player? Yeah, as his bass player. There was a, I remember on

particular show in South Africa where I realized I felt like I was faking worship. And I had a bit of

a, I kind of, it was before it was a cool thing to do, but had a bit of a deconstruction moment. And

I can, I can just remember having these strange thoughts while we're on stage of kind of whether

that, whether I believed some of this stuff. And I felt a bit, I felt a bit fraudulent.

And so I kind of, you know, so that's, that kicked off a weird, a weird era for me. I didn't

want to dishonor, you know, Michael W by, by being the, the guy who was trying to figure out his

faith in real time. I just kind of hit, you know, most people deal with that stuff in their 16. It

took me till I was a little bit later to, to be willing to ask the hard questions. So I kind of

do it one of these days soon. I also had four kids at the time. It's an older son, Isaac,

when I'd leave. So there's something about my hair being wet and me holding a bass guitar

that he would just start getting really anxious, because he knew I was about to go for, you know,

three weeks. So it was, it was hard on, it was definitely hard on our little, on our little family.

And so it's just kind of a convergence of factors that I just knew. And I also think I don't love

music, like the lot of the, the folks who do it as well, like I would see how it would.

Music can just capture some people's hearts. And sometimes I'd just be out there going,

I think I'm holding down someone else's dream job, because this, this, this doesn't, I don't think

this does, does for me what it does, what it's supposed to do, and what it does for them. What

is the honest thing to say to yourself, I'm holding down someone else's dream job?

Yeah, that's what it felt like. That was, and you know, I, you know, getting off the road,

like we need our own little support groups. So we all have these, you know, various friends that

were, there were pivotal conversations that I had. Mine was with the bass player from Delirious.

Oh, really? Yeah, because he just kind of got off the road. And I said, what's it like out there,

man? Yeah. You know, and so that's a really, kind of, kind of helped me be brave enough to make

the move. The other thing that happened was we won, we, we won a green card in the green card lottery.

Oh, wow. And Mary was, yeah, and Mary was always convinced it wasn't for music. Like she's like,

I don't think we won this for that. And that was such a strange thing to say.

Like we figured we'd just, my plan was to just kind of keep riding the music thing.

Yes. You know, all the way to the top, if I could. And I was in touching distance of this,

you know, really been very lucrative and a, you know, done the 10,000 hours and all of that.

But anyway, we, you know, kind of just determined together. That was the right time to get off the

road. I figured I wanted to get off by the time I was 35. Okay. And then kind of got off at the age of

33. And through, and then, you know, the relationship through, through Michael W, just opened

up lots of doors. And so I was invited to, to work at a church in Daytona Beach, Florida,

in Orman Beach, Florida. And went down there and I was the connections guide,

sent at the table for people in community groups. So that was my job. Like, you know, I'd do the

connection cards on Monday morning and helpful in community. And then I officiated my cards and

Josh's wedding up here in Nashville. And we now boss from church city down Whitehead. So we

officiate that wedding and asked me to move back to town. Wow. Yeah. So, so that was it. And then

I became we pastor of church of the city up here in the city. Where was prayer? Talk to me about

getting off the road in prayer. You were deconstructing in a way. Yeah. In a way. And then you're also

realizing, I'm not really, this, I'm not built for this. It's not built for me. Okay. So the

hardest thing that has ever happened, I've had some hard things happen. A lot of things work out.

We were playing and this, all of these, these are painful memories, but we were on a

West Coast tour with Michael W. Plain Worship music. It was one of the tours where it was. We

weren't too much of the pop stuff with, you know, an entire back end of the set in B flat. You

were just going for it an hour. But I woke up on a Saturday morning. I turned my phone off,

which I shouldn't have done. Like if you're touring, you can't really, and you've got family at

home. It's a, it's a bad call to silence your phone, but I was very tired. I'd worked for two

hours the day before, you know. But you were a dental 1030. Exactly. But there was a text from Mary

and I missed all of it where she said, but so we knew her pregnant with our fourth baby and she

was bleeding. And by the time, you know, I probably slept three or four hours past the first text,

she was at hospital and she miscarried the baby while I was on tour. And for me, I stopped praying

after this because I was like, what's, what's the point? I'd answer prayer. So we lost this little

baby, he ended up playing the show that night. It was just, Michael's like, man, go, do whatever

you need to do, you know, go home, whatever. And there was just one of those weird ones where I was

going to get home one hour earlier by not playing this show. Right. Right. It was like the flights

tomorrow either way. Yeah. Right. So all that. So we ended up, you know, did not take in the red eye,

came home and really just kind of stopped talking to God for years, even as I re-ended into ministry.

So it was kind of like this sort of secret I was keeping. And there was, there was theological

barriers like I believe in the sovereignty of God, like I learned that at Bible college. But and

you read all through the book of John, like, you know, if you pray this in my name, it'll be done

for you. I'm like, what? Why are you giving these guys parking spaces at Kroger? Right. And,

and we're praying for the rescue of Ella, baby, and you wouldn't do that. And so I,

I was pretty young in my faith, honestly, when it got down to it. One of the disadvantages

of being good at music from a young age is you get put on platforms a bit before you're ready

for it. And people think you might be actually really a great Christian when we'd have done any

of the work. So you learned to fake it a bit. Yes. So that was really the first tragedy that

had come my way that we had to deal with. So it would have been in my early 30s when that happened.

And so I'm just like going, so I just really, I've always loved Jesus. So that's been the weird bit.

Like I had to unlearn some things, which I think that's that's healthy deconstruction.

Yeah, that's right. You should deconstruct with a, you know, in a very fine and controlled way.

But um, and so I didn't, I didn't burn the house down. We kept going to church. I honestly

kind of didn't know how to do life without Jesus or church really. So it wasn't, it wasn't quite as

dramatic as some other deconstructions that I've seen. But I definitely didn't feel like talking to

God was that helpful because he didn't come through for me on that one. But I threw myself

into learning the Bible. And so I've always been very disciplined with Bible study. I like,

I like the head stuff, but I've been a bit hesitant about the heart stuff. Hey, welcome to

be in a seven. Yeah. Yeah. Because the head stuff we can make sense out of. Yeah. I can read

that scripture when, when the heart stuff goes sideways. Yeah. I don't know what to do about that.

Yes. So I think that's such an important part as I was reading about, I'm very sorry about

the miscarriage. Yeah. By the way, um, there's a baby waiting for you. Yeah. There's a, I mean,

I just, I have so many thoughts about when my nephew TJ died. Yeah. There were so many, he lived

for 56 days and every night. I said, Lord, he's still here. You can do it. Yeah. You could change

a story. And he didn't. Yeah. And so I grieved some of that with you that how, how does God not do

the thing we're asking to do and what we're asking to do is an alignment with what scripture says.

Yeah. How did you ever get over that hump of? By 15, 15 years later, I've now reconciled it.

And part of it has been, been jumping back into prayer. Like I, you know, the embarrassing thing

about this book I've written on, on the Lord's Prayer is I was written because I wasn't good at

prayer. Yeah. And my job made me teach a series on it last January. Yeah. And I just had to really

just go, man, I, in my entire life, I've tried different versions of prayer. I've, I've also thought

personality wise, I'm, I'm just, I've, you know, we've got all these friends who get up at 5 a.m.

And I've actual prayer closets. I wonder whether I did have the right personality for like a

silent retreat for me is like, no, thanks. You know, like it's just, I don't, I don't have,

I've never been felt like that kind of super spiritual person. But I feel like I've been helpful

to the kingdom from being able to teach the Bible in that. That's right. But just like the prayer

thing felt for other, seemed to be for other people. So anyway, I, I realize as I'm teaching this,

that Jesus clearly says this then is how you should pray. And I went, gosh, I've tried everything

else except for the actual way that, that Jesus taught humans how to pray. So I just dug in and,

and taught it, taught it, and prayed it for the entire year. Several times. That's all, you

pretty much all I did really. That's the prayer experiment. Wow. And you just did that. That's

all I did. How many times a day? One, two, one. Several. Yeah. And I was always interested in what

is it like to have a discipline spiritual life that doesn't involve waking up at like 4 a.m.

Because I'm like going, I've tried that for 48 years. I couldn't, and it was a bit shame in

juicing. And so I just thought, look, well, God's made me this way. I don't know if it was the best

decision he's ever made, but it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm not built like some of these,

some of my heroes are. So I just, just started just going, all right, you know, Jesus does this bit

about, you know, go into a room, close the door and pray this way. Give some real clear

glance on how not to pray. Yeah. I did a bunch of the how not to pray stuff as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Praying like a Pharisee. Yeah. Genius at that. Yeah. That's right.

Praying like a pagan genius like that. I'm not good at praying in public. I'm like, I'm so much

better at praying in public. I can pray in public three times a day. Yeah. Yeah. Get me in a

quiet place. That's it's way worse. If you need a TED talk, dress up as a prayer. I got you. Yeah.

My last third of my sermon happens in the prayer. So yeah, I can go do that. So I just,

Matt, I get that. Yeah. So I just, it was, it was really unbelievable. Yeah.

I was kind of born out two or one days of prayer and fasting. I thought, you know,

why don't I just take Jesus seriously for a sec and just pray the way he tells me to. Yeah. So.

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slash that sounds fun. Okay, now back to our conversation with Matt Smallbone.

We're strategic and thoughtful when we plan these series. But we didn't mean to do two episodes

about two books back to back about the Lord's Prayer. And I've never thought about the Lord's

Prayer as much as I have in these last few weeks. What is it, Matt? What is it about those words?

And that the way, I mean, I want us to go to the six movement movements in just a second. But

what is it about these that this prayer that matters so much to you and matters to all of us?

So what is wild is the disciples who knew how to pray. These were Jewish boys who prayed at

least three times a day. So part of when Jesus is talking about prayer and this is how you pray,

I think there's, I think there's an assumption that it was like at least three times a day.

This stuff going on. So what's interesting is Jesus is saying, pray this way and do it,

do it many times. I think Jesus is understands deeply how humans are made. And I think it's important,

what I've learned is important to pray all of it and in order and you tend to camp out at one

of the movements. Every day something grabs you. Yeah. And so each movement, you know, early on,

I mean, that you begin with our father, right? So here's how I normally pray. Hey, Jesus,

I'm going to need to value out of this situation. I've got myself in in this very specific way.

It's going to have to go like A, B and C, A men. Yeah. And that's, and oh, and sometimes,

you know, thank you for this day. That's all. That's like that. So I, when you actually just dig

into this prayer, the genius of this prayer is that it's like, it's simple enough for a total

of memorized and it just keeps theologians enthralled for a lifetime. Yeah. So what has surprised me

is I haven't didn't get bored once in the entire year as I as I dug into this. Not one time.

No, no, no, because something will stand out to you each time. So you know, you're starting with

our father. Yes. It had never occurred to me that I'm not God's only child. Right. So you begin

with our, the pronouns actually really matter in the words of prayer. So my prayers are always like,

hey, here's what's going on. I'm really frustrated with this person could fix it. This is how I'm

going to need you to do it. But when you start with our father, you start to realize you can't

really only child your way to God that God is managing all of these prayers of all of these children.

Our father in heaven. So it's in the heavens like King James version translates. It's the same

word that is like birds of the air. So there's this air component to it that a lot of my favorite

theologians picked up. So it really goes our father. So I'm not just praying for me. It's a,

it's a communal thing. My father who's as close as the air. And I'm telling you, I'm quite

often the first time I pray this is when I'm driving to work. And I'm just sitting there feeling

like, man, God is, God is close with me. So you have this moment of adoration. And sometimes

that's enough. So there are times where, you know, I'm disciplining going through the whole thing.

But that is, that was an incredible breakthrough for me. Remembering I'm part of a family,

it's not just God and me. First of all, I'm not the, you know, it's not the true man show.

You know, it's by the way, watching it with my kids again. But this is, there's a lot of kids

forgot to take care of. So I'm going to bring you my perspective. Man, that's important to hear too

when you think about the people you don't like. And when you think about the, whether it's a group

of people you don't get along with, the people who voted different than you or the mom in your

kids class who's talking about you. Totally. Our father is like, hey, I'm coming to you and you love

all of us. So if I, if you and I are in a disagreement and, and you know, so I'm trying to

pray this thing three times a day, I'm like, I'm going, because I know I'm about to pray about you

and whatever dumb thing you just said and how hurt me. I'm like, our father and I'm going, gosh,

he's, she's got her perspective that she's bringing from this other angle as well. It's been,

it's been, it's been very just, it's been a very clarifying perspective. Then it's not me,

because I realize I just pray me prayers. Yeah. And this is, and this is, Jesus, very clearly,

this is an hour, hour thing. Yeah. You know, hallowed be your name, your holy, and you can just

stay there for a long time too. Like that's the, that's kind of the, why don't we use that word

hallowed and hello anymore? Because it's, it's a weird, I used to think it was, I used to think it

was Harret when I was little Harold would be my name. I wonder why I ask Methodist kids so much

about this Harold do, you know? So yeah, it's, it just means holy. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's,

that's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. It's just sort of like, so then you're like, our father,

who's as close as the air, you're kind of holy and perfect. And I'm coming to you as one of,

as one of many. And, and let's, it's, it's, it's, that's how we're framing this thing up.

You're holy. Yeah. I'm not. Yeah. And, but I'm about to bring you some stuff and start some. Yeah.

And so there, there really is two real sections to this. There's the first half is about God.

And the second half is about us. And so when you get to the hallowed be on a,

your kingdom come, you will be done. So we, I mean, that's where I get stuck the most. Like,

okay, God, I just need your kingdom to come. Your kingdom is just, your kingdom is fair,

your kingdom is honest, your kingdom is close. I often get stuck there. Why does it matter that

we pray and order though? Why, and why do we need it? I mean, I, we need to finish it. I'm not sure

if we need to. Ah, okay. I'm one year into it. And I need to. Right now. I'm, I'm sure there's

people who are deeper into it. And, and, and you know, it'll, it's all very conversational as well.

So you kind of just camp out. I just camp out at each, each, each movement. Yeah.

And, and spend some time there. I just do think there's a reorientation of the heart that's very

important. And obviously if you're, you know, an emergency, God help. Yes. It's going to be

plenty enough. Yes. But, you know, you're acknowledging that God is holy. And then, and then I,

another massive internal change comes, we go on, hey, I'm about to ask you for some things.

But ultimately, would your will be done? Yeah. And, and that, and that's, that's part of the

stuff that ends up helping you deal with unanswered prayer. Because you go on into this thing going,

all right, I'm one of many children with an idea. Yeah. And, and, and this is, this is,

this is kind of how I want it to go down. But I'm telling you, like quite often, when I'm praying

through a situation, I'll be like, hey, I'm about to have this difficult conversation with Annie.

Yeah. And it could go, and this is my plan. Yes. Would your will be done? And I'm going to

need you to jump in on this. Because God, this is, this is, this is where we're headed. So quite,

quite often, that's how it goes. Do you, um, unanswered prayers is so messy,

because Garth Brook sings. Thank God, thank God for unanswered prayers, right? But everyone is

sitting at home or on their treadmill or in the car right now. And they could, they could list

off as many unanswered prayers as we had time to hear. You did a beautiful job writing about this.

And it was one of the things I wrote down to ask you about in quoting Pete Gregg's book,

about unanswered prayers. But like, smalls, how do we survive a life where, this is a dramatic

question, how do we survive a life where the thing, let me ask about me, how do I survive a life

where the thing I want to do most is make sure people know God and love God. I want them to know

Jesus is who he says he is. And sometimes it makes me feel like I need to hide my unanswered prayers

because I need to make sure everybody knows he's great. Yeah. But I am carrying piles of unanswered

prayers too. Yeah, it's, it's difficult. I think, I think I've, I'm resigned to the fact that

there will be unanswered prayer. Yeah. Like on, on this side of eternity, that's just kind of how,

how it works. I think, um, we get glimpses of the in breaking kingdom of God into our lives.

And they're moments to be celebrated. Um, I think, I think there's always going to be sad things

on here. I think that's just the setup. Um, but I am learning that if you don't, if you're not

carrying these, if you're not carrying these things alone, you're going to be okay. Even,

even without, even without deepest sadness, I think if you're in isolation and alone,

um, without real human community, without real legitimate friendship with God, I think these

things are unbearable. I think we, I think we're given the tools to manage the heart. Like a lot

of the New Testament, Jesus, Jesus, brother James, a lot of his book is kind of explaining some of

the Jesus stuff, like, like, it's, it questions like this. Um, and he's, he's just super clear that

like struggle is just kind of what it's about when it comes to human, human development. So

something about just the way the world is set up that we don't, we don't get to be everything we

can be, uh, without it being, without it being a struggle. And I think about it, all of the

most wonderful things I have in my life have, have come at a, at a high cost, um, for a lot of

effort. Yes. And I think struggles just, just sort of part of it. But I, I, I get what you're saying,

like, you know, in our church, a lot of single girls, you know, for example, and we've just done 21

days of prayer. Yeah. And like so many people in our church just want to meet somebody and fall

in love and be taken care of and take care of somebody else. And it's a really deep wound.

The ones that I see managing at the best have a rich friendship with Jesus. Um, and without that,

I, I, I really think these wounds are so deep that actually Jesus is the only answer to them. That

is what I have concluded in, in my late 40s. That wouldn't have satisfied me in my early 30s.

Sure. So same. Yeah. And I agree with you now too. I mean, I, I, you know, you know, my story really

well, but I, and I am not married yet. I am, you know, thinking back in my 30s and how often I would

grieve with the Lord that I didn't have a partner. And then a year and a half ago when I drove over

the state line from New York to Vermont, and it was my 50th state, I cried and said to Jesus,

you and I have done all 50 states together. That's exactly how I would have written it if I'd

had a choice. But, but 32 year old Annie couldn't have imagined unanswered prayers would lead to

this right, right. Grateful tear, tear, tear filled moment at 43. Yeah. What a great experience.

Me and Jesus in all 50 states. And so I can see that too. But it's so hard to for prayer not to go

the way you think it's. Well, every situation there's, there's, there's a pretty good Jesus

answer to it. So a singleness like Jesus and Paul was single. Right. And it turned out pretty good.

Turn out grateful. Yeah. So, um, and, you know, I would just say marriage is beautiful and hard

and singleness is beautiful and hard. Yeah. Um, there's some things you've been able to do and

build out this massive thing that I haven't been able to. Yes. And I don't know, I don't,

I don't want to pretend I understand how that feels when you're, when you're home in a quiet house

and lonely at night. Yeah. Um, but I think we'd both at times be willing to trade some of that.

That's right. For some of that. That's right. You know, so I mean, I called my mentor last week and I

said, I was asking her about my daily, she said, sorry, is this whole thing just apologizing all

the time? She's like, yeah. I was like, I feel like we were apologizing back and forth constantly.

And I'll tell you what I want to do in 10 months ago. Apologize in all the time. I'll just live my

life. And I feel like I apologize and get apologize to constantly. There's a little bit of apologizing

in your future. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a lot. Um, but I think there's a version of that for all of

things. For every person, for people wanting to have kids, for people wanting a different house.

I just don't think every desire we have, we fully understand actually what we're asking for.

So I think God, I think, you know, the thank God for unanswered prayers. Like I mean, if I'd

have had all of my prayers answered as a fourth grader, I'd be married to Madonna and working in a

circus right now. You know, and what if you were married to Madonna working in a circus?

Oh, really? I know. What a dream. It's pretty easy to sell some books. But you know, I mean, like,

I just feel like I'm the older I get, the more I realize the gap there is between my wisdom,

which I'm growing less and less confident in as I age and that of God, like it's just sort of,

it's sort of the price of entry when you're doing business with a with a higher power.

Yeah. Where it's just like, yes. I, you know, at some point, you've just got to go listen. I don't,

I don't love this script. Yeah. And you've given it to me. And when you get reps in over the years,

you really do see the unanswered prayers that I've had in my life. I'm

as long as they're like far enough in the rearview mirror. I'm actually really grateful for almost,

for almost all of them. Like, I wanted to be a rock star. And I, you know, I like being home.

Like, you know, the 200, the 200 nights away year, every other year, like the Nashville,

Nashville life, it just wasn't built for that. But it's definitely what I, definitely what I wanted.

And now also the Lord has you pastoring it. How miserable. Do you know what I mean? Like,

you would think like, well, why would you make that trade? Yeah. I never wanted to do the pastoring

thing. And so God just, just knows how He's made us. And I think there are just times where I've,

I've learned, and it takes, this is not, this is not, this is hard, this is hard to do as a younger

person. But with, with some reps in you just look in the rearview mirror and go, gosh, I just,

it's clear that this is what I was put here for. I had to get here somehow. So when the Lord's

prayer shifts to us asking for things, how does that, how does that work in your day and a day out?

Yeah. So you've, you've just prayed for that your kingdom come, which, which basically means

with the way things are in heaven, like the, your design for the way things are meant to work with

that happen. And would you will be done? So we all have these little wheels that we carry around.

Many of us, it, it doesn't exert far, but there is a space in our lives where we can do whatever

we want, whenever we want. So we all have our wheels and it's surrendering that, that's based

to God and saying, you know, let's, let's do it your way. So there's this, there's this reorientation

of the heart by this point. And so by the time you're, you're coming to asking for our daily bread,

by the way, not mine. Yeah. This is, oh, yeah, give us a shot the front door. Yeah. Our daily bread.

Yeah. So it's sort of like also at that point, I, I try to be really a bit diligent in remembering

that because I've only ever prayed for my daily bread. I am only praying for our daily bread.

Yeah. So that's super interesting. So you're praying to our father. I'm not known

with a child. Yeah. Our daily bread. I find them mentally. Yeah. And so some, a lot of the

unanswered prayers I've have, I think is because I'm praying for my daily bread, which is probably

hurting somebody else or something along the way. Yeah. So, so, so you pray for that, but here's

what's weird. And we're all good at that bit, like going to God with what we need, that's usually

where we start. In the provision, I can, I can list provision. Okay. And he, Gary, for this. So

Jesus tells these guys how to pray several times a day. He says, by the time you're asking for

things, guess what he says next? You ask for forgiveness from God and you forgive somebody else.

So for last year, I've been forgiving people several times a day. So what I'm realized is I've,

I've had an entirely wrong approach to forgiveness. So I would just carry on a bucket of unforgiveness.

I want to got too heavy to bear. I'd find the easiest thing to forgive. I'd get that out just

so I could bear my life and you know, I can walk around Kroger without being scared of bumping

into too many people. Yeah. You know, the biggest surprise for me so far has been how easy it is

actually to forgive when it becomes something you do several times a day. Yeah. And it's, and I,

and I don't let myself opt out of it. I search my heart. So you're asking, so you're asking for the

thing and then you're pivoting straight to God. Forgive me. Forgive me for whatever I've done.

And I try and name something. And so these days, I'm trying to think of something in the last

eight hours, not the last 10 years. Right. Right. So there's, and it's a lot easier to forgive the

thing that happened in the last six hours usually than the thing that happened. Yes. You know,

10, 20 years ago. But also it means you don't run out of things to get forgiven for or you don't

run out of people to forgive. No. And then you've just got to, yeah. And then you, then you're

forgiving someone. And so it's just a very lightweight to live. And it has probably been fundamentally

the biggest kind of switch for me is that I'm just walking around in this light state of unforgiveness.

Because I just can't hang on to things. You end up, you end up like, you end up not with that

many people to forgive. And so I just really, you end up really forgiving like the little hurts

that come your way. It's been so incredibly free. It's really interesting. Like I was saying about

talking to Nancy about, am I just going to say sorry for the rest of my life and this relationship

and, and GW as well, I'm very good at forgiving someone who says to my face, we forgive me.

I am not as good at sitting and going, man, that person really hurt me. Lord, I'll forgive him.

I'll let him, I'll swipe wipe that slate clean. I don't do that as much as I do when it's face-to-face.

Yeah. Well, if you did it several times a day. So here's the surprise. It's surprisingly easy

when you make it a rhythm that you do. Now, forgiveness, everyone's got to hear this. It's not the

same as reconciliation. That's right. Very, very important part of this.

Forgiveness, when fully understood, is totally safe. So there's some people listening in, go and

do honestly. Like if I was to forgive, if Jesus asked me to forgive that person for doing that

thing and us go on and live our lives like that thing never happened, like I'm out. Like I have

no interest in following such a cruel God. But that's not what biblical forgiveness is.

Jesus does this whole 70 times seven thing or 77 times. It's just like Jesus argues for unlimited

and regular forgiveness is what he argues for. But not unlimited reconciliation. Yes.

And you really need to be wise. Yes. But really, forgiveness is releasing someone from the moral

debt that they owe you. Yes. And choosing, and it's also choosing not to bring it up again.

That's legitimate, legitimate forgiveness is a pretty, is a very free thing for humans to do.

Yes. But reconciliation is not always possible. Yes. And that's so everyone here that.

When a counselor I love said to me one time, we can offer, we can offer unconditional love,

we do not have to offer unconditional relationship. Right. Right. And I, and that was so helpful

for me to go like, oh, yeah, I can still love and not be in relationship. Yeah. Sometimes friendships

and on planet earth. And it's really painful. But Jesus seems to, to argue that it's possible

to be in a state of forgiveness. Yes. So that was what's messed us up about that is social media.

Right. Because I literally was just saying to a friend yesterday that I quit doing Facebook

a few years ago because I was watching people from middle school who I do not, I couldn't get to

them if I tried outside of Facebook. But I knew their kids names. It was sports teams they were

on. And like, so there's something that social media friending has done that has led us to believe

that no friendships are meant to be seasonal. Everything has to last forever. Right. And that's

just not, that was actually never true. Yeah. But now we have this social construct that says,

well, if you are Facebook friends, your friends. Yeah. Yeah. When you read through the some,

when you read through the Proverbs actually, we talked about this couple weeks ago at church.

I'm not this much of a Bible nerd, but I literally know. I'd have them three weeks ago. But one of

the, one of the Proverbs actually talks about not having too many friends. So it basically says,

be careful. Like it's basically talking about having too many acquaintances isn't the way,

but there is a friend who will stand by you and everything. Yes. Yes. Seems like Proverbs

is arguing for just a handful of, of the life. Yes. Yes. Which is not how I'm wired at all.

No, no. I want to be in great standing with several hundred people. Oh, all of them. I want

to be in great standing with all of them. However many there in the room, I want to be miscommunity

all of the time. And that is not playing out in my life. But forgiveness

matters. So this was really interesting. You've asked for your thing. And then you're just

forgiving, asking God to forgive you. Yes. It's a very humble way to live. This, this prayer just

understands the human condition. Yes. And it just chips, it chips away at our brokenness.

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Did it start faster and it's gotten slower the the prayer as you pray it was at the first few

times like our father doesn't have an how would be the name and then you kind of upgrade and now

it's got like this takes me an hour. Annie, I used to find press so boring and I'd hear people talk

about how I just got lost in God. I don't know. Did you really? I've become that person

in one year from like a reluctant prayer to someone who just kind of sort of loves being with God.

I'd missed the whole world. I'd had spent a lot of years doing stuff for God but not with God.

And I think I was a pretty good soldier along the way but there's there's there's much more

available to us and it's just the thought I mean so press just prayer is you know it's very core

it's like humans in communicating with God. Such a what an opportunity we have. When you think

about between the Old Testament and new page and the New Testament 400 years then no one heard I'm

like I'm worried if I don't hear God on a Thursday and there were generations of people that

didn't have any direct contact. Yeah, never feeling alone is is on offer in this thing. It's

wild. Why does Jesus end it? You think with lead us not to temptation to deliver some evil.

So another nerdy Bible inside. Yeah, come on. We live for those. I think the better translation

is do not bring us to the test. There's a couple of weird lines. I'd give us give us this day

our daily bread. That's a whole thing because you wouldn't say that. No. Give me give me today my

daily. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. So there's there's there's a whole other thing

there. Lead us not to temptation. I think it's I think it's it's it's but I as I understand it my

favorite theologians talk about don't test me beyond what I can handle and and that is kind of how

I pray it these days because and by the time you're down here you've just part of the prayer of

often done some heavy stuff and let me tell you how beautiful it is just to say God don't don't

push me beyond this and and what an invitation from Jesus to have that kind of open communication

with God. That's right. That's right. And so sometimes I'll say God I'm read you know I'm read

lining it here I can't I need you to care I need some help on carrying on carrying this thing.

So I I think that's what it's about and so it's it's it's it's it's a mysterious phrase it's

one of mine actually asks Jesus about. Yeah. One day what did you really mean? Yeah. What's the

I mean with NT right on that because I was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you written a whole book

on the or he's done a bunch on the New Testament. Yeah. So I'm sure if I quoted him in the book

but I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely like his kind of sermon on the mountain. Yeah. I mean

all the all the all the geniuses have got to hold it on the mountain. Yeah. You might not have an

answer to this. Yeah. But I'm curious. Is there something supernatural going on when we pray

the Lord's prayer that we can't see? Is there something going on in the spiritual that we can't see?

Well the final movement is is deliver us deliver us from evil. Right. So that's kind of where it all

ends. And so in my prayer life up to this point too I've never been that serious about there's an

enemy out there to take me down. And so every every prayer now finishes with this realization.

So I would say something deeply spiritual is happening. I think this prayer it I just think

it's very much a it impacts you positively, physically, spiritually and emotionally like it just

kind of the the order of it and the design of it just seems for me at least my experience I've

last year is it's just been precisely exactly what my heart have you felt delivered from evil?

I have been yeah totally. I mean there's you know so again I was I was raised Methodist. I

like I like to imagine it's you know I can mostly I can mostly think my way and yeah you know quite

time my way out of most of the things but I think I think all of us listening know that you've

walked into a room before or there's been a situation where you go something yeah something is

off here and you look at some of the seasons you've had or that your friends have had and you go

they there is some torment going on here this there's I think the world only makes sense to me

when when I surrender to the idea that there's an evil force who who hates me and has come and

has come and for me otherwise some of some of the pain just doesn't doesn't make sense outside of

that so I I don't know if that answers your question but I I have been praying for protection from

the evil one I pray it for my kids that's that's been a bit of a breakthrough for me as well just kind

of praying that just this fierce protection yes I roll out have you have you and Mary watched

Poldark no show from PBS it's a it's a PBS show it's one of the old I call it my old England

shows right and there's a bad guy on that show right that really hates Poldark and I said to my

team I when I think of how Satan actually feels about me that is the clearest I've ever seen

that because that guy spends the whole show right going what can I do to inflict right

pain on Poldark and I'm like oh that's what we're working with and Jesus said here's

what you say deliver me deliver me from evil and I think there's something really powerful

about Jesus doesn't say you should pray God give me the strength to not be forced into evil or

God give me right he says deliver me right and being delivered means right someone else is doing

the work not me yeah and so when you when you look at the classic spiritual warfare passages

in scripture like it's it's all defense and a sword which is the Bible so that's kind of like

there's this battle it's different from how we think about warfare but it's like that the important

verb in scripture is to stand yes the whole thing is stand stand stand do this so you can stand

it's not actually a lot of aggressive language in there right right it's you know it's it's

breastplates and it's and it's some it's it's protections that we can stand yes and so really

you know as I understand it currently that the spiritual warfare thing is about praying that we

can stand and and and we can we can stand amongst all the pressure when you've done all you can do

is stand stand stand stand stand stand stand yeah and I'm realizing in real time it's deliver us

from evil not me deliver us so who does who does he mean for me to be praying for besides myself

I I so the way it yeah these are these are great questions and I wrestled through this over the

first you know six months the way I I do it is I go into it going I think these are the things

I'm gonna pray about and I'll quite often you know I'll pray about you and me I'll pray about

this thing that's happening at work and I'll just run the whole thing for everybody so so

um deliver us from evil if if I'm if I'm talking about the you know a conflict that you and I

are experiencing yes I'll just I'll just let that kind of kind of kind of shape it so yes

yeah you've made a lot of references to us being in a fight yeah no no no no no no no currently yeah

who else can we have chosen yeah no it's just you and me yeah yeah I think that's really helpful

smalls because as I'm thinking about praying about this we we just did this right before you got

here we had another prayer conversation and I realized there's an area of our business that is

in total confusion and we have not stopped and prayed and so we all got in a room together

yeah and I was like we should pray and I was like no we're actually gonna pray right now right

we're gonna pray right now and I wish I'd have thought to say deliver us from evil like wherever

so I pray to now is we're talking ever there's evil involved in the confusion we're experiencing

just deliver us take us out of it and and so that I have a nuts and bolts question yes I want to

remember to pray the armor of God over myself every day I want to remember to pray the

Lord's Prayer do you have it hanging up somewhere how do you remember I so here's the thing

spiritual practices like I've gone for try going full rule of life yeah yeah yeah the nine things

are I can't we're not done Mark yeah I want to go I want to hit it all at once what I have learned

this last year is adding one in every year okay getting really proficient at it so really I was

focused I've kept all the other things I do lots of Bible reading yeah Sabbath has been very important

to me best out of the week yeah and um you know so last year I just added in praying the Lord's

prayer it's my spiritual discipline yeah and so it's just sort of like I'm it's

hard to forget it when there's only really kind of three things that you know that's right you're

doing so I just feel this like do I print it out and hang it up in my shower do I I got it I'm so

visual right then if I'm walking out of my house if the last thing I see is the armor of God I think

I'll go yeah okay yeah and I'd hate hate to have communicated that I pray the armor of God

every day but it's it's sort of like yeah that's the yeah it's it's more the awareness of the

spiritual battle that that I go down yeah like I would you would you protect me yes would you

protect me uh this is our last episode in the prayer um series before we go to fasting can you

tie them together a little bit you just pastor yeah you just pastored your church through a 21 day

of prayer and fasting yeah why do they both matter and how do they work better together um

so Jesus Himself said certain things can only be done yeah yeah yeah um which is you know that's

quite often it's helpful to give Jesus the last word uh on these things I think the thing is if

if you're fasting without praying you're just dieting yeah that's right and that's that's that's

not that's not the point of it so you know you're just depriving yourself yeah so like prayer with

fast you know fasting without prayer is it's it's not really achieving any of the things it can be

actually a totally selfish um pursuit so and I also think you can call me wrong in this I think

prayer or fasting without prayer really opened you up to attack yes because you're weak yeah

you're weaker in your body and you're not being fed by the Holy Spirit in the way you are when

you're fasting and praying together so I just get the times I've done it without praying I get

crushed so we we it just seems like an important part of following Jesus is having these intense

spiritual bursts from time to time for certain things so I would I would say it's important to ask

for some really really big prayers um when when we do prayer and fasting as a church I usually have

one thing for each of my kids yeah you know something for work and I write it down yeah um really

miracles like for me it's the miracle zone like what is the miracle that we what is the miracle

that we need to see yeah and then I pray for that and you know we've been doing it for six years now

and I'm growing for you know this year is really the first time where I'm I'm praying for something

that is there's no way I can I can manipulate it and so I'm I'm kind of praying for impossible

things and we've had some years where um it's actually been remarkably easy and I've kind of

flowed around other years where it's been really hard there are some one year had very specific

financial ask and I don't even necessarily believe in that like I don't I just I have a bit of a

hesitancy about praying for a certain amount of money but one of my kids has autism and it's

expensive and so we needed we needed a certain amount of money and I prayed for it and we had it

we had it within like the month and I'm like I don't want God to work this way in a way as it's a

weird it's a weird spot for me so um but we we pray for the hard things and write it down and

remember them yeah and because quite often a year later there's there's been real breakthrough

not not sometimes not the way you wanted but there's definitely there's been some movement

yes so it's just intense and so the idea is when instead of eating lunch you should go and pray

somewhere yeah and if you don't do that you may as well not fast you're just dieting yeah that's

beautiful yeah you speaking of well the book is excellent it's called the prayer experiment

how praying like Jesus realigns everything our thoughts our hearts and our posture toward God and

the world um you'd write about Isaac and your other kids so beautiful and marrying here so the

the story of when he got to college the pictures y'all put up I mean the whole it's just beautiful

I can't wait for people to read that that is so special we just pray for Isaac a lot yeah yeah

that's a big part of it yeah um finish us here the whole series yeah sorry to make you wrap up

series yeah uh why pray I will tell you I I was very good at praying when I first met Jesus

had my heart broken by some unanswered prayer um felt like I had very good reasons to uh honestly

we just put some walls out between me and God and um I think you slowly die on the vine

when that happens there's nothing you know I you know I live in East Nashville all of my millennial

friends deconstructed pretty hard and I'd hear a lot like I I just don't hear from God anymore and

God doesn't feel close and 100% of the time when I ask them like how's your prayer life they'll be

like I haven't prayed in years and so I I just think um the reason to pray is not to get

do the Lord's prayers very clear it's not to get everything you want whenever you want it's

actually about relationship with Jesus it's it's closing the door it's it's never being alone yeah

and it's um trusting that the God of the universe um actually listens to us yeah and uh that is a

that is a transforming way to live your life yeah thank you thank you for doing this it's the

best way to live yeah yeah it is not always the easiest way it is not the easiest way to live

it's the best way to live yeah and that's different um is there anything we didn't say you want

to make sure we say okay the book comes out April 28th you are very kind to come and finish the

series even though there's a couple weeks till the book is out but we can pre-order it now it shows

up on the right day at the right time so um the last question is always ask it's your first time

on the show which shocks me it is right so yeah we did I was thinking like have I forgotten about one

I've just been up here a lot last time I was here was to get that book for the yeah yeah when you

got a bunch it's one year ago yeah that's right I've um I've told that story a lot that your

church had a need for a handful of books of about where did TJ go we were honored to share it with

them um the last question we always ask pastor Matt small bone because the show is called that

sounds fun tell me what sounds fun to you everything I as an immigrant my cousins and I are planning

we're wanting to go to the Caribbean to watch a cricket game okay because now we all have real

jobs and stuff yeah and we can do that so it's it's it's a wild thing I don't expect anyone to

understand the one where they hit it and it goes through that little thing no that's okay okay

okay that's out in Wonderland probably yeah no it's it's a it's a it's the second most popular

sport in the world after soccer it's just not played in America yeah so it's played in all the

India and you know so yeah anyway what do you do what does it look like it's it's got the

it's it's it's listen the American part of your brain is there's not a one minute answer to this

yeah yeah so it's kind of like baseball but it's sort of like Australian baseball there's a five

day version of it really yeah so there's there's rumors of us trying to get a trip together and

watching it in the Caribbean is amazing because it's it's a great place to make it as well why do they

play in the is there a league to watch it's it's you the cricket we love is your country so we

will go support Australia playing the West Indies okay which is a group of islands in the Caribbean

that they they they do cricket okay so that would be and there's like a specific tournament

that y'all are like they like a world cup yeah there's just various tournaments

okay we're gonna we're gonna try and make it to the next one okay looking forward to it how many

people are on the is it a field there's three there's 11 people on the field and two batsman

so the batters have to you have to bat with a partner so it's a bit more on your same team yeah

you go to and you hit the ball and you got to run to the other end and you've got both got to

get to the other end to get one yeah it's fun it's really fun the British invo invented it and

it used to last it was used to be an unlimited game oh you just played until they're about

started yes as back when amateurs um to be pro an amateur meant you didn't have a job so it's

wealthy landowners literally with nothing else to do would play for days and then and then when

the working class started playing they'd limited it to five yeah well there you go so when you

guys all go to watch it you'll go for a week because the game all last five days yeah we've got

it we've got to talk uh all of all of our families in into all of this that uh yeah that I'm

looking forward to that there's a little bit of energy behind it right now hand to heaven I'm

gonna get on Instagram and watch some cricket today I promise I can hook you I can see the bats

are kind of long the paddles paddles yes sorry no no they call bats but Americans like the word

paddles to describe it yeah because they look more like it it is this one of the harder things to

ever do is explain this game okay I don't know why yeah well I can't wait just get more runs

than the other team there you go and two of you have a double shot because there's two people

but it sounds fun that's right hey there you go uh thanks for doing this today thanks for

ending the series for us love you any proud of you my friend thank you

you guys isn't he the best don't you love him okay listen for starters listening to his sermons

every week is a game changer you will love it we'll link to that in the show notes and it's

spiritually stronger.com but head over to social media tell them that thanks for being on the show

and go pre-order a copy of the prayer experiment it will arrive at your doorstep right on time

we'd love to hear more of your thoughts about this episode over in the comments on our sub-stack

post you guys my blogger heart is alive again over at spiritually stronger.com come talk to me in

the comments if you have any questions from this episode you can drop them there or in the Q&A box

on your Spotify app if you're a Spotify listener like me or just send them to us on Instagram at

that sounds fun podcast we'll try to answer them there hey make sure you're following that

sounds fun podcast as well on Instagram it's a fun place to be if you need anything else for me

y'all know I'm embarrassingly easy to find any uptowns on Instagram Twitter X whatever Facebook

TikTok sub-stack anywhere you need me that is where you can find me I think that's it for me today

friends go out or stay home do something that sounds fun today and I'll do the same today what

sounds fun to me is a fun hang out this afternoon with my agent who's in town so y'all have a great

week we'll see you back here next Monday periodically throughout our spiritually stronger theme over

the next year and a half we're going to throw in some fun episodes just to break up some of the

themes some of the spiritual discipline talk so Monday bring some fun your way with my friend

and hallmark actress generally we'll see y'all then

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