The 10 Wildest Reboots in Movie History and ‘The Bride!’ Plus: A ‘Secret Agent’ Second Look and the Best Doc Contenders.

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1:16I'm Sean Fennesee. I'm Amanda Davins. And this is the big picture a conversation show about brides, secret agents, and true stories. Today on the show we are discussing the bride exclamation point Maggie Gyllenhaal's bold new reimagining of the bride of Frankenstein. And we will run through the history of bold movie reboots. We will also revisit best picture contender, the secret agent, one of the very best films of 2025. And finally, we will dig into all five contenders for the best documentary prize at the Oscars this year and talk about the state of that category. Programming note, Amanda, we're going live on Netflix twice this month, twice. The first time what are we doing? A mailbag. Yes, what kind of questions do you want to get in your mailbag? Not ones where I have to recast things or tell you about movies where my opinions have changed. Guess what? They have it. Mine have sometimes. I'm an open-minded man. You can email us at bigpickmailbag at gmail.com. What's that email address? Bigpickmailbag. I did it right this time at gmail.com.

2:16Yes, once you've sent that email, you can tune in and watch us on Netflix on Monday, March 9th at noon pacific 3 p.m. Eastern, where you can watch us answer those questions. We'll also talk about the Pixar movie hoppers. And then on March 15th, after the Academy Awards, we will also go live. We will not be answering your questions. We will be answering our own questions about whatever transpires. I can't stop thinking about what's going to happen on March 15th. But I'm not going to talk about it today. We're going to talk now about the bride or on Monday. Or on Monday, yes, because that mailbag is anything but Oscars. Thank you for reminding me. Okay, we will do it all right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by State Farm. Sure, being an expert and movie trivia is impressive. You know what's even more impressive? Being smart about saving money. And a great way to do that is by saving when you choose to bundle home and auto with the State Farm Personal Price Plan. Bundling, just another way to save with the Personal Price Plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Covered options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings,

3:17and eligibility vary by state. Okay, Amanda. Haven't seen in 24 hours. Yeah, maybe more. We've both seen the film The Bride. There's been no relevant movie news since then. So I think we should probably just dive right into this movie. What do you think? You don't want to talk about Barbara Streisand, possibly performing a tribute to Robert Redford at The Oscars. I gasped and then texted immediately. Yeah, I think it's nice. I don't, I feel really overwhelmed by the thought of it. And I don't really usually like the, you got to have an immemorial tribute, but I always feel that they're like a little overly sentimental. And there's like, when there's an interpretive dance movement, I'm like, I love dance, but also I don't really think that expressed my grief for all the art and artists that we lost this year. But there's something about the possibility of Barbara Streisand seeking like memory from the way we were to Hubble

4:17or a memory of Hubble that to me was just, I was like, wow, the way we were is still powerful. In my reaction to it was like, oh, I guess now I'm an old person and I'm in tears. Well, I did feel like a very old-fashioned idea for the Academy Awards, which is not a bad thing. I was thinking we didn't speak about the immemorial from the actor awards, but I was kind of curious who would get as Bill Simmons likes to call it the hammer, the final note. And this was a year where we lost, among many other people, Robert Duvall, Gene Hackman, and Diane Keaton, in addition to Robert Redford. And Redford went last to the actor awards, and he will probably be last at the Oscars, and that will probably segue to Barbara Streisand performance. You know, sounds good, I don't know. You don't think she'll soundtrack the whole thing? You think she'll sing through the entire immemorial? Well, they've done it before. I think I'll sing through the immemorial, and then she can come in for memory. I think that would, what would I sing? Limpus gets nooky. What do you think would be the most appropriate song for me to sing? That would be funny. Let's go to the bride.

5:18Yeah. So written and directed by Maggie Jalenhall, her third feature film, it is based on Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, sort of. It stars Jesse Buckley and Christian Bale alongside Peter Sarsgard, and that Benning, Jake Jalenhall, and Penelope Cruz. The story of the movie is, as such, in 1930s Chicago, Frankenstein's monster asks Dr. Euphronius to create a companion for him, together they give life to a murdered woman known as, quote, the bride, sparking romance, police interest, and radical social change. I ask you now, what do you make of the bride? I would prefer not to, which is sitting right there, if you've seen the film, which most of you haven't. You, so I think you and I are on different pole on, like, different points of the same spectrum of this, and you're a little more positive, and I'm a little more negative. But I can see your point that there are things too, if not like, than admire. It's a big swing, right?

6:19This is a very ambitious, like, post stuffed and possibly over stuffed, tribute to a lot of things that we enjoy, including cinema, Jesse Buckley, noir, though, even though that's the silliest part of the movie, that like, there's a lot in here, there is a lot, there are a lot of set pieces, there's a lot of dancing, there is a lot visually, there's certainly a lot of performance. So everyone's trying a lot of things, and it's good when people try. Right? And it's good when filmmakers try. And once again, you know, an original ask, not really original, but, you know, it's IP, at least, at least a writer director, like trying to do something interesting, a strong vision, and being given a big budget, and like, using the whole screen is what we root for.

7:20So I'm not mad that it happened. But there is something that is so essential to the project, and so embedded in the nature of not just the script, but like, why this movie exists, that I think is so stupid, that I, like, I ultimately can't give it a pass. I completely understand what you mean. I respect your point of view. I went into this movie with rock bottom expectations, because of a lot of the, the fact that it has been pushed multiple times, we've got our first look at it, almost a year ago at CinemaCon. I think it was meant to be a fall release. It got bumped to the spring of 2026. In part, because maybe Jesse Buckley was going to be on the gravy train to an Oscar win for Hamnet, but probably more specifically, because this is a little bit of a dumping ground, ahead of the Academy Awards, in terms of the release schedule, there was talk of bad audience test scores, there's talk of reshoots. It's got the vibe of

8:20a disaster, and this is a kind of a testimony to the expectation game for me, because I went and expecting a very bad movie, and I think this is a very messy movie, but has a lot of things that I like, and I would much rather have the studios giving audacious filmmakers a lot of money to try something, as you said, then 88% of the franchise garbage that we get on a regular basis, and so even though we can talk through specifically what is ineffective, or in some cases, I think quite dumb about the movie, there's so much that I really enjoy. There's so much style, there's so much fearlessness, there's so much abandon, I would say, in terms of what it's trying to accomplish, there's plenty of stuff that feels tacked on, and you can sense that, but I have been reading some of the reactions to the movie, and I get why people are like, this is a bad Jesse Buckley performance. To me, it is not. To me, she's doing what she's being asked to do, and the movie that this movie reminds me of

9:21is Babylon, and I love Babylon, and Babylon is a little messy, and Babylon's a little all over the place, and Babylon's a little like Bing Bing Bing on your nose with your metaphor sometimes. Right. But, and Babylon loves the movies too. And it does, and there's a lot of overt references to movie history, and the way that cinema is interconnected, and that that's like a series of recreations, we're gonna talk about the secret agent later in this episode, so a movie that's not dissimilar. You know, it's a movie that is using a lot of the hallmarks of older films, and trying to re-contextualize with political and social intent. Secret agent's more successful in that respect, but I think I just had more fun than I expected to, and I'm thinking about this movie. There's another movie that I thought of a little bit, which is Don't Worry Darling, which I think is somewhat similarly stuck, because it's primary idea, about feminism and a powerful female consciousness. Right. Kind of like holds the movie back from unleashing itself into a real genre of feet.

10:24Yes. I think this movie is more successful personally, but I think they're gonna end up in basically the same place, critically, socially. They both have, like, not a fundamental flaw, but the fundamental theory behind their existence, the take, the interpretation is quite similar, and to my mind does not hold up in either case. I mean, Don't Worry Darling, at least, has the panache of the reveal being that it's like Harry Styles as Jordan Peterson in a room that's funny, if silly and undermining of the entire project. You know, the bride as a feminist retelling, and what it is fine, though I would like to talk about the concept of a feminist retelling and what we're achieving when we do that. But the way that it executes it is so heavy-handed, and as you said, sometimes tacked on.

11:26And so, like, ultimately unnecessary and frankly, doesn't achieve what I think it thinks it sets out to achieve. That it's just kind of like, I don't know how to get on board with the project, because it also announces it so clearly, there is a framing device that I understand is a reference to the bride of Freight Hensdine, but also feels silly, tacked on, and like a total failure all at once. Yeah. Well, okay. And then is cooked into the rest of the movie. That's the other thing is that you can't, like the, it's a foundation that does not work. So, we spend a lot of time on our Weathering Heights discussion talking about like the source material, and like what changing the source material sometimes does to a project. And by pulling too much out, you can strip a movie of its thematic strengths,

12:27and that that makes the movie feel more flimsy. That was my feeling about Weathering Heights, in part. That was part of what I struggled with. This movie I would say is sort of working in reverse, where it's operating from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, where, you know, in the novel, there's an attempt to create a female counterpart for Frankenstein, but that before that, that corpse is revived, it's destroyed. In 1935, there's a sequel to Frankenstein, the James Webb film, Bride of Frankenstein, where Elsa Lanchester plays the bride. That character is actually reinvigorated. But she's wordless and screeches, and doesn't really have agency to use a contemporary language. This is a movie that attempts to kind of like reposition that, to correct that, you know, to give that character more of her own point of view. I wouldn't say it's not dopey. I do think it's wildly overstated at times in the movie.

13:29And I'm not sure if there was a subtle way to do this, because there's no subtlety in the movie whatsoever. It's just sort of, as you said, you're like, I'm not on board, so I just can't. Yeah, I mean, like, my fundamental question is, is why? Like, who cares? I mean, like, I get it. I suppose we need to- Evening the playing field of the history of monsters in the movies, and who gets to be messy. Like, I think that's really what the movie's about. It's like, who gets to be like a messy person who gets to do terrible things? And Frankenstein and the both man and Dracula get to do those things. Why doesn't the bride get to do those things? But the bride isn't doing terrible things. She's inciting a revolution against the 1930s Chicago Mafia and literally screams the words, Me Too, multiple times, at a character. Yeah. And then there's a whole interlude where all the women take to the streets. Like, what? What? I mean, I think there are some things that her character gets to do. Jesse Buckley's character. One is to have a strong sexual desire on screen that is not otherwise communicated in movies like this.

14:29That is obviously a very not-so-latin metaphor for women having the ability to just say, loud and proud, this is something that I want. Right. Also the idea that she, early in the film, there's a violent encounter after they go to a nightclub where Frankenstein, after someone attempts to sexually assault the bride, Frankenstein has to save her. And he kills the two men who are trying to assault her. And then later in the movie, she saves him. She's the person responsible for protecting her family, her duo. And, you know, it's very diagrammatic, the way that it's attempting to kind of like write those wrongs. I don't think a lot of this, that stuff, is really what I cotton to in the movie. What I cotton to in the movie is when it's like, this is an explosive show. Here's a dance sequence. Yeah. Here's a dramatic and oftentimes, metafictional retelling of Hollywood history. Here is, I think the performance is very funny and on point. I do know why they're getting some negative feedback.

15:32But these are monster movies. Like they're supposed to be ridiculous and big and loud. And I don't, I didn't struggle with any of those things. Those aspects of the movie. I've found not Jesse Buckley's performance, but I found the character of the bride, incredibly annoying. And but that was because we've in, like written in the character. And I would like to talk about this framing device. And the Mary Shelley of it all because it starts. There's an extended prologue where Jesse Buckley is in kind of like black and white, like in the void as Mary Shelley, talking direct to camera. An unboxing girl, if you will. Sure. And she's, and then like similarly, like has lost control of reality. She's cackling and this in this British accent being like, just wait. And is doing exposition for what, you know, what has happened and also how she Mary Shelley is involved in this reanimation of the bride.

16:32Now she gets another chance. But it's intercut with the Ida character, who's also Jesse Buckley, who is the corpse that is reanimated as the bride. But the movie makes the choice to have, to really literalize that this is Mary Shelley. Also has an agency. Mary Shelley can be a creator too. And so she inhabits Ida's body and so half the time. Like the Ida character or the bride is sometimes taken over by Mary Shelley's accent. So she speaks either in, you know, a Chicago accent or like doing her best American flapper or sometimes as Mary Shelley in a British accent. And it's just this switching back and forth is incredibly irritating. It, it, it, it is not her fault. That is, I mean, that is written for the character. She is, she is doing, she is giving a performance

17:34of what was conceived. So I don't hold it against Jesse Buckley. Yeah. But like what? And why? And can I leave? Because this is really annoying. Um, I kind of enjoyed it. I, I, I realized that this is, there's an aspect of this whole movie. And I am so comfortable being a hypocrite in this. Yeah. It is like key jangling fan service for movie bros or movie gals. And it's like, do you like that this person is named this because it's a call back to a name of a famous person? Or do you like that the movie is like a exploration of the split personality and literary creations and how much of, how much of the bride is really Mary Shelley and how much of the bride is her own thing. And like the movie is trying to kind of tangle with these actual ideas in a way that is like a little bit complete 202 class. No, it's, it's 101. Okay. It's sure. I'm sorry. We didn't, we didn't. You need to have read Frankenstein. I guess so. Yeah. You can do that in high school. Um, do you have a probably, probably you don't. Or a good one we were in high school. Yeah.

18:34Probably you don't at this point. You can listen to the audio book. Um, um, so I don't, I don't, I don't pretend to like defend its artistic merits. It just, I found it kind of amusing. I found what she was doing kind of amusing. And I know it's going to be a big turn off for a lot of people and it is essential to the way that the character is written. I think like whether or not it's purposefully annoying is an interesting thing to talk about because I think, you know, being a messy bitch, right? Like that's like the whole movie. Like I don't know if Maggie Jones literally said that in an interview, but there's intent here. Sure. And there's a whole, there's a whole 15 plus years of, you know, post-vice culture that is defined by that, right? That's like a point of view culturally. Right. That this movie is trying to, you know, subsume into a monster movie. I get it. Like I'm okay with it. Sure. But it was, it was, it was always pretty annoying at the time. I mean, I like, I understand. I suppose that it has to be like a branch

19:35of our feminism or whatever. Like, but that doesn't mean that I want to sit and watch all of it or that I need to be asked to. Also, you know, sometimes the messy bitches are funny. Like Meg Salter forever, you know, that's that. We, we failed to discuss her at the actor's words. She was the funniest thing there. But then, oh, yeah, there was a TV award, but it was about him. So it can be done well. It was about Jesse Buckley. Yeah, that's true. Jesse Buckley helped me out here. They didn't cut to Jesse Buckley once. They did not. Because I think there's, I mean, there's no sense of humor in this. That, I mean, then that is a real. It is for it, for its bigness and for it's going for it. Nest there is, there's no self-awareness. It is really like we're all in. And I can appreciate that. Like, I don't want to say, Jesse Buckley's, Buckley is not the problem to me. The character is the problem. But I, there's one other aspect of this that I find appealing that I think most normal people don't see the same way.

20:38I, you know, Cisco and Uber talked about this at times. Film critics have talked about this over the years. But when you professionally watch 200 new movies a year, yeah, a lot of things start to feel very the same. And when something like this comes along, this is not really like any other movie. It doesn't mean it's successful all the time, but it feels different. And that that activates your mind in a different way. It makes you see something differently. I found the movie to be too long. I found the plotting and the pacing to be very poor. I found the tacked on kind of detective story to be a huge bungalow and a huge waste of Peter Sarsgard and Penelope Cruz who were like a cat in the award-nominated phenomenal actors who have, or have like very little to do in this movie. But and I'll tell you this too. This movie also reminded me a lot of Joker and Joker Folia do. The, the bad parts of Joker Folia do. And to me, what I found to be the good parts of Joker. And part of the reason for that is the movie is Shop by Lawrence Scher, who shopped both of the Joker movies. And the music is by Hilder Gwana Deter and she did this music for the Joker movies.

21:39Yeah. And it's edited by Dylan Titchner, who is PTA's longtime editor. He hasn't worked with them on the last couple of movies, but he edited all of Walt Thomas Anderson's classics. So I found that there was like a level of craft here while also feeling like it's really chopped up. And they're kind of like on this journey through America in the 1930s, you know, also a huge homage to Bonnie and Clyde, that's intrinsic to this story too. And it starts to just feel like really episodic about an hour in and then you feel the weight of it bagging down. But when the movie is kind of like stroking its chin all the way up until the Me Too finale, which I did not enjoy, I kind of enjoyed it. I kind of enjoyed it like spinning its wheels about what it thinks it is and trying to like use a $80 million studio movie to be like, how do I really feel about the way that female characters are supposed to be in movies? I don't know, I think that there was something like the intent is interesting, the execution is interesting, and I didn't have a bad time. That's kind of where my head is at with the movie.

22:40Yeah, the execution is interesting. I did also to keep it in the DC universe spend a lot of time thinking of birds of prey, which, you know, and some of that is all of the production decisions. And there's like a slight greenness to some of it, and even the makeup and whatever the stain is that Jesse Buckley has on her, you know. Yes, the sort of bile stain on her face. Sure, but I had forgotten that the subtitle of birds of prey was or the fabulous emancipation of one Harley Quinn, which is there's just a little bit of like girlpower, re-imagination here that I'm definitely allergic to. It's the ossification of the bride. It is. Yeah, it's, which is just, it's, why do we mean that? Like, what's the alternative? Would you have enjoyed more of straight-up modern remake of the bride? You mean the modern remake of the-

23:40Geraldo Toro's the bride. Well, what happens in it? The same shit that happens in, that's a remake of the James Well movie. So she just doesn't say anything? I mean, kind of what happens in Geraldo Toro's the, you know, Frankenstein, but the bride is just Elizabeth. Right. That's true. And her destiny is very beautiful. Yeah, I mean, it's impossible to do that the one for one thing that I'm suggesting, but I think because this is just so different from what you would expect a studio to do, we're going to get like another version of this. There's this funny thing happening with Warner Bros. where they have a mummy movie coming out in April. Right. And it's a modern set story. Jack Rainer is the star of it. And it's about a little girl who disappears and clearly makes contact with a mummy. And so they're using the same, you know, Karloff Universal 1930s frameworks, but they're trying to set it in a modern time. And Universal's been trying to do this for years and years. You may recall the dark universe. Didn't go over so well. We saw the invisible man. We'll talk about some of these movies when we get to the reboot stuff. But this kind of like old IP,

24:41like not new IP, like old, like a hundred year old IP, is stuff that still has enough recognizability that it's powerful. I get all of that. I bump on like the feminist retelling of it. I genuinely, and I had some time during this film to think about this. But this is a thing right now, right? And I mean, it's not new, but the book Cersei, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it was like a huge like book club bestseller, which is reimagining. It's not even reimagining the Odyssey. It's just kind of like, what's up with Cersei? She's just a character, you know? And like what is she up to and how does she feel? And what was her experience? And there are like a million of these. There's the Penelope ad, which is the Margaret Atwood version of the Odyssey. There's like everything having to do with Lady Macbeth. There are like, there's been a whole like cotton industry after Cersei of books. Like there's one about the Julia character from 1984.

25:43There's one of like Rosalyn from Romeo and Juliet. Like you could argue that the Da Vinci code is about Mary Magdal. You know, like this is not a thing, which it's not a new thing, but what does this character who is like not really explored in this like canonical piece of literature? What's going on with her? And what if we either told it, not even told it from her perspective, but what if we like gave her agency? What if we gave her a personality? What if we gave her whatever? What if we gave her a life and her own story? And I genuinely don't know if I think that that is like a useful project or not. I genuinely, because the result is always, not always, but the result doesn't change the framework of in which these characters are created and the world in which they're created, or really even their experiences. And so I'm just like, what do we learn from this? Like what do I learn from the bride?

26:44Like a woman can be messy too? That's fine. Just make a movie about a messy person. I don't know what rewriting Frankenstein or the parts of the Odyssey. By the way, apparently, Cersei ends with her marrying Telemachus, which sorry, spoiler alert. I mean, is that improving things? I don't know, I haven't read the book. Yeah, it's like what are we doing? I'm sorry to just like bring you into feminism corner for a minute, but I just, it's where we are. What are we doing? What do you want Alice watching? These are all salient questions. I haven't read any of these novels. And I would say I'm somewhat studied on feminism, but certainly not an expert. I think artistic recombination is really fascinating to me. I was obsessed with hip-hop for exactly this reason. I think that like the history of music being redefined and recombined is just like moves me. And I feel the same way about movies. I find a lot of movies that do this. Literature may be a little bit less so,

27:45but I just don't read as many novels as I did when I was, you know, 20 years ago. So I guess I don't know that it can like accomplish anything. And I don't even know if what's the point of this is something that really occurred to me while watching the bride. I don't know that like I would show this to Alice before showing her the original bride of Frankenstein. I'd be like, this is the real story of the bride. I don't know that we need to like rewrite those things, but I do think that recontextualizing stories has value there's a very long history of this in the movies. Now, the primary reason that this happens, and the reason I think this movie happened is Maggie Jones Hall just made a movie about a messy woman. Yeah, and it was great. The lost daughter is exactly what you're describing, and it's an adaptation, but it is clearly, it is what interests her. It's like a thematic core of the kinds of stories that she wants to tell. And it felt like she wanted to tell a story on a much bigger stage at a much bigger scale. And the only way to do that in Hollywood right now is to find IP, is to find a property

28:46that you can show to a studio and say like, I'm going to do a crazy story about female identity in the aftermath of me too, but I'm going to do it using these monsters that everybody that people are familiar with. And I'm going to justify the budget that I need by doing that. I get it, like she's kind of playing the game that has been set in front of her. And you can say it's unsuccessful, of course, but I think whether or not we need more feminist retellings is so tough because you can't go back 500,000, even 70 years and say like, well, we're the books that should have been written if this woman wasn't forced to be a housewife. Right, so you're saying because we're all slaves to IP, or because we're all trapped in IP world. I think it just helps sell everything. Yeah, no, I mean, I get all of that, but that doesn't make it good or useful. I agree. Which is just sort of, and I just, I think it's pretty silly. And I think that, I mean, this is the thing, if you have to do IP, just do the next chapter

29:48and start a new character. Like I put in here as a joke, just like, but not really as a joke, just force awakens it, but which is a bad movie in a lot of ways, but the ray of it all, they just made a girl a Jedi and they just made it about her. And you said that your daughter was very excited to get to ray. I remember seeing ray in theaters, and I don't care about any of this stuff, but I was like, I understand what it means to see with the woman with the lightsaber. Then they saddle her with a bunch of other stuff. But the idea of just making a character that if you need to keep the world and you keep the IP, just like create something new. I really, I think you're right about that. I think it's very insightful. Since I've just been rewatching those movies, yeah, to JJ Abrams' credit, that first movie does not go out of its way to say, but she's a girl and girls can do it. In fact, the most memorable and exciting and still like hair-raising moment in that movie to me is at the end of the film

30:48when the planet is collapsing and it's Kylo Ren versus Finn and Ray. And Kylo Ren is reaching for the lightsaber and trying to use the force to pull it and it whips past him. And it doesn't go to Finn, it goes to Ray and she catches it. And no one says anything. They just start fighting and she beats him. It's magical. I remember that moment. Yes. But this movie doesn't do that. There's no lightsabers in this movie. I think it's fair to say we could just do a new story that is in the same world. That's a different mission than I think what a lot of filmmakers try to do. I was trying to think of what is the right framework for this episode. And I couldn't figure it out for the longest time. And then it dawned on me that this actually happens like every year. There's always one of these. And you mentioned the feminist retellings in literature. But how many of them are there just for Jane Austen novels? Like we have all of these kind of like reimaginings and setting them in contemporary times or different times. Right, but those weren't movies about women.

31:51Or those were texturally about the woman from the beginning. And they need updating in like many other ways. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't A either be examining the ways in which women and people of color and everybody who was not were like sideline or experienced like real shitty lives for a really long time. But this thing where we're reclaiming a character that didn't matter. And then just like reclaiming from what is like what are we reclaiming? That's all. Have you seen Rosaline, the Caitlin Dever movie? It was a Hulu movie, like four or five years ago. Just sort of like, which is like. It's about Romeo's ex, right? It's about the girl who Romeo doesn't go with. Which can be funny. There is one truly great example of this, which is the 2011 McSweeney's article. I don't know if you've read this. It's a classic.

32:52I regret to inform you that my wedding to Captain Von Trapp has been canceled. I haven't read it. And it's just about, it's like literally in a match imagining the Baroness from the sound of music, writing the letter being like, so this non who sings and hangs out, it's really genuinely funny. But I think it is telling that like the best example I can come up with of this sort of retelling is the McSweeney's article. I want to talk more about what movies try to do with this. But this is a Christian bail movie and he is playing Frankenstein. And on 99% of the time, it would be called Frankenstein, starring Christian bail. And he is the second lead of the movie. He gets to be the primary character at the beginning before we meet our bride. But what did you think about what he was doing in the movie? I was fine with it. It was quieter than what Jesse Buckley was doing. That was certainly true. Kind of a cucked Frankenstein. That's okay. And I do like it when very big

33:53like male stars are just like, sure, I'll just show up on the side while you guys do whatever. I am charmed by that. And I appreciate that. And he wasn't. He's a little weird in a good way. I appreciated this slightly settler interpretation here. Yeah, and I think maybe that's one of the reasons why Buckley is so big is that they're playing two different notes. And frankly, there are a lot of relationships like this. We're one partner is very loud and the other partner is not so loud. And I thought it was kind of clever. I don't know. I have a warm feeling about this movie, mess and all. Well, you like monsters. I do like monsters. Yeah, that's the other thing. I was just kind of like, I don't know. I they're part of that is also the buy-in. And I did spend some time in the movie thinking about like, is this really that much worse than Del Toro's Frankenstein? And like in what ways is it worse? I mean, it is ultimately in coherent, like just from a basic. See, I think it's by a lot. I just think it's a little eye-roly.

34:54Like, I think what it's doing is like, I think the plot makes sense. I think it's clearly been reshot and reconfigured. But like, the movie makes sense to me in terms of what's happening. Sure, they like, they're personal. They reanimates them and then they got to run away. And then, sure, it's, yeah, I get that it's Bonnie and Clyde. Like, that's not that hard. But I think everything, all of all of the political or the ideological stuff that it's added in. Like, I'm still not sure where Mary Shelley is in space and time and how she's inhabiting the body and then when she's kicking in and then the people on that. It's not a literal, it's a movie about reviving corpses and turning them into a happy couple. Yeah, but like, it's a flight of fancy. But the flight of, flight of fancy was not coherent to me. Like, it just, it was not. It seemed peace together. That's what I'm talking about. So there's been some speculation that this film could norbit, Jesse Buckley.

35:55Right. Listeners may recall, Eddie Murphy was riding on a train to Oscar Glory for the film Dream Girls in the Best Supporting Actor Race. He won some precursors. And then he released his legendary comedy classic Norbit in the spring before the Academy Awards happened. And many believed that it literally tanked his Oscar chances and he lost that Academy Award. And he actually talked about it recently in his Netflix film, Eddie, which was kind of interesting. I think maybe it's called Being Eddie. But just the fact that he had an awareness of it and felt a little burned by it, I thought was notable. You know, Oscar voting closes today, Thursday, when we're recording. I don't really think this is going to have any impact on Jesse Buckley. Well, I wanted to ask you, do you think that the bride or the late breaking campaign against Jesse Buckley for her anti-cat stance? I don't know anything about that. So this just absolutely erupted on social media in the last two days. And it's an anecdote about how when Jesse Buckley

36:59moved in with her husband, her husband had cats. And the cats were not welcoming to Jesse Buckley. Okay. And I think even pooping on her pillowcase. And so then she issued an ultimatum that it was the cats. See, I thought the story was about Maggie Gyllenhaal. This story was about Jesse Buckley? Yes. Okay. And so, but now there's just a Jesse Buckley is a monster because the cats had to be re-homed. And this is, you know how the animal internet is, you know? Like I still think that this is part of, this is a secret part of the Marty Supreme Resistance is like, what happened to the dog? And now Jesse Buckley doesn't like cats. Right. Well, if you had to choose dog or cat because you're out on birds, we know that. You can't be a bird. But like, what am I choosing to live with? To be responsible for anything else? I'm responsible for enough things right now. 2019 Amanda, dog or cat. You got to take one. I like spending time with dogs more, but again, this is my husband does not respond to dogs.

38:02Well, as you know. Yes, I do know that. And I would choose to live with my husband. So I guess I choose a cat. I was raised with cats and dogs. I had a German shepherd growing up. Kane. Okay. I've changed my life. Made me care for things beyond myself. Taught me responsibility. I loved him. He was beautiful. I also had three cats growing up, three different cats, all of whom died, not on my watch, on my mom's watch technically. But so yes, they're teaching your responsibility until they die and then it's your mom's problem. Yeah, well, I've been reflecting on this specifically because our daughter wants a cat. I know. And she wants a dog too. And we're not ready for that. But I feel like losing three cats as a young person made me feel like they were more disposable, whereas only losing one dog. I was like, I haven't had a dog in my life since I was 12. And I've been waiting. And I'm feeling like I'm going to wait till I'm like 50. But when I get a dog, that's going to be my dog.

39:04That's going to be my homey. Like that's going to be the person that I spend a lot of time with. And I kind of understand where Jesse Buckley's coming from because it's like you entered into a new experience and you signed on for the husband, but not the cat. Well, I like cats, I'm not like cat. The cat was not, the cat wasn't allowing, but the cat was not welcoming her. I see. You know, they couldn't cohabitate. Got it. This is the only movie podcast where you can get this discussion. I just want everyone to know that. I'm sorry if we're speaking to the entirety of the Osuers experience. Listen, you're right. That's exactly what this is. So what do you think is going to be more hurtful? The bride or no cat? I mean, clearly the cats. Yeah, the cats thing. The cat stuff is divisive. This is like a big swing. And oh, she missed whatever it happens, you know, it's not her fault. Box office. So we was tracking for somewhere between 14 and 18 million. OK. It's not great for an $80 million movie. I don't know if this is going to go in like the plus column. You know, no, I don't think so. Paramount starts looking under the hood. No, I don't think they're going to be like more of these.

40:05Probably not another Aggie Jell and Hall joint coming from David Ellison anytime soon. I did think this would was a good moment to kind of take a take a breath and look at the Pam Abdie Mike DeLuca era because I think this is the end of phase one. This is the last movie from the initial green light bananza that they set out where they were just like filmmaker forward audacious stories. We're making movies that other studios won't make at certain budgets. So like, let's just quickly go through the lineup. Companion, Mickey 17, the alto night's Minecraft movie, sinners, final destination bloodlines, technically F one, but not really technically Superman, but not really weapons, the conjuring last rights, one battle after another, weathering heights, and the bride. You heard it here first. Mike and Pam are good at there. It's pretty good. I mean, you know, I think the conjuring last rights and and final destination bloodlines being like a massive successes in addition to a Minecraft movie makes a little

41:08a lot of this feel even better where you're like, you guys did your IP things and you did them in ways that were effective enough that we could like talk about them on the show and move people, you know, a lot of families went to go see those movies but they don't they're not like lasting things, but then having the two leading contenders for best picture. And then, you know, the alto nights, which was reportedly a David Zazlov project. They don't have any stain on them from that one. Superman, you know, was obviously more of a James Gunn DC studios thing, but a relative success. The brother, the weather hikes has turned out to be not as big as I expected it to be. I don't think it's a loss by any means. And it's really interesting that Emerald Finale took me that choice to go with Warner Brothers instead of Netflix where she could have gotten more money maybe up front. Right. But it's definitely not a loss for them. I think it was generally financially successful. We didn't really like it that much. The bride would probably be the biggest L that they take. Even more than Mickey 17. What was Mickey 17's box office? Because this is in this isn't the Mickey 17 spot.

42:09And I think we are having the same kind of conversation about this film that we did Mickey 17 last year, which is like, we really we do like that filmmakers get to do this. And some things worked better than others. Mickey 17 made $133.5 million globally. Okay. I don't think the bride's going to get past that. I don't think so either. I also think like if you want to put kind of metacritic scores up against each other. I think Mickey 17 is a more successful movie than this is. Yeah, they're kind of the same to me. Yes, well, I mean like I'm like this is this is different. And and some of it isn't working. And some of it is like too politically on the nose. It has the same issue. Absolutely. And I really bumped on that with Mickey 17 as well. Yeah, but but there's so much invention and visual dynamism and just the musical sequences is alone in the bride. I'm like, I don't know. This is pretty like 1930 movie musicals. Jake Gyllenhaal is Fred Astaire. Yes.

43:10Yeah, that was really entertaining. It's half big. I think he was singing too. He was doing his own. I think you what? Well, yeah, we know from the John Malini and the sack lunch. That's true. That he's a he's a real performer. Do you remember I he hosted SNL. It was the dream girls year. And because he did I am telling you I'm not going at his monologue. And it was it's incredible. I think it's not online anymore because of music rates. But I'll never forget how good he was. We might need him in a musical. Mickey 17 landed at 72 on Metacritic. Do you want to guess what the bride is on Metacritic right now? I mean, it's definitely in the 50s. 55. Yeah. Okay. Well, I wanted to mention the reimagining thing because I think it's really interesting. And I appreciate the framework and the context around the feminist retellings of classic literature. Because I think it's important to a lot of these stories. You know, it's easy to point to something like clueless or ten things I hate about you. I think of those more as remakes. Those are remakes or or up or yeah, they're remakes. They're modern remakes. Yes.

44:10There's something different that happens. And I think maybe the most famous version of this is hook. Yeah. Which is Steven Spielberg's dramatic kind of fast forward in the story of Peter Pan. Where a grown-up Peter Pan goes back to Never Never Land to confront Captain Hook and the lost boys and rediscover his inner childhood. A movie that I was obsessed with as a kid revisited in my 20s and disliked. And I probably need to look at it again. Joey Roberts is Tinkerbell. I do remember that. Very notable. Tinker Hell. Tinker Hell. That was mean. That was that was at the headline? I was definitely. Like the blurb in the next two weeks. Exactly. But this happens over and over again. And I think this stuff is kind of fascinating. Like Kronenberg's The Fly. Is it really good version of a reimagining? It's sort of a similar story to the original movie. And the 1980s in particular, there were a lot of horror stories like this, like John Carpenter's. The thing is a riff on the thing from another planet

45:13but it or the thing from another world. But it's not the same specifically. Weird science is basically the bride of Frankenstein. It's brought to life by two horny boys. The Wiz. Sure. You know, a reinvention, a reimagining of the Wizard of Oz. Your beloved, you've got mail. Which I did not realize is based on a story and is not just the shop around the corner. Did you know that? The, no. So I'm going to look this up right now. Please, Vamp. Well, I do so. I mean, I would say that it is. It's as much a shop around the corner update as it is. I like, what are they? What are they switching around to like tell the story in a new way? Maybe not from the movie, but I think from Parfumari, which is the, that is the, I want to say, it's a, it's not German. I don't know what would. Parfumari would, would be French. I don't think it's a French novel.

46:13It's Mimiclo Slazlo is the author and he's Austrian. Okay. And it's an Austrian story that I think Lubitsch was basing his story on. And so I think just even the, the sort of like, conventions of what's happening and you've got mail, the use of technology, the fact that like something can be based on something and then based on something else and you put it in a blender and it becomes something else. Totally. Yeah. And it's not a spoof. Like it's not a Mel Brooks movie. It's actually based on the material, but it's changing things in the material. Right. Is an interesting example of that. I'm trying to think of like some, what, like what are some more audacious ones? Like Cruella is a little bit of what you're talking about with the feminist literature. Right. Well, there's, there is a whole fairy tale thing where, and it does have to do with like feminist retellings, but they are more often focused on the villain. And... Millesson is this as well. Sure. And what's up, what's up happening in Snow White and the Huntsman?

47:15I think it's focused more on the Huntsman character in the Disney film is sent to kill Snow White. Right. But then that character is made more heroic in that story. Okay. So that's like a, that's a not all men retelling. Could be. Okay. That could be. That's really says so much. But yeah, the fairy tales are doing the villain. So that, to me, seems more examining. I mean, definitely is like social, social norms. And there's a feminist element to it also. But some of it is that you get away from some of the princessy stuff, which is how we've tried to free ourselves from the, you know, the fairy tale trap over time is interesting and kind of sad. And then also it's a little bit like a story telling, reimagining like story conventions. And like let's think about like the bad person and what is the bad person doing? There's a really clever and wildly unsuccessful version of this called Dracula Untold. Are you familiar with this movie?

48:16No. 2014 movie starring Luke Evans. He plays Vlad the Impaler aka Dracula. But he is forced to transform into the evil monster Dracula because his family and his nation is under the threat of the autumn and sultan. And so he needs to build up all of his powers and his army. So that he may battle the sultan. Okay. Has it worked out? He wins. Okay. And then he lives forever as Dracula. Yeah. Okay. Does he unhappy about that? Well, all Dracula's are kind of sad. Yeah. You know, they have, they have an internal woe. Okay. Much like myself. I mean, Joker's not on like this, right? I think it's very, very much in keeping. Yeah. Aside from the fact that the same team worked on Joker and the bride. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's about like, but what if we tried to understand this, this sad man who's an insult? Yeah. Arthur. Yeah. You know, he just, he can't strike up a conversation with Zazzy Beats, you know, she won't talk to him.

49:16He just wants to find love. You know, he likes to ride the subway. Right. Sometimes there's some stockbrookers on the subway, and you hate that. I hate to be bullied as a grown man on the subway. There's a lot of other examples. Like another really mean 80s movie is The Blob, which is where we make of this Steve McQueen movie from the 50s The Blob. I really like the Elizabeth Moss starring the invisible man, Lee Wannell's. Yeah. Which is a real, I think a real clever reimagining, that also has a lot of social import. It does. But makes it strong enough that the thriller aspects are what is at the front of it. You know what I mean? It's not like this movie exists because it's, this is, we're putting it, this using this milieu and this time in history, where, you know, ideas about sexual assault and gender control and all these things that are kind of in the culture are sort of like the background, like the set piece for a scary movie about an invisible guy. Right. It's not, it's, it's implied or like a, a possible interpretation of the text as opposed to like written in the text.

50:18It is also, there aren't also 45 other things going on in the, it's very kind of restrained like down the middle. Like this is a 90 minute thriller. Invasion of the Body Snatchers keeps doing this. There have been four versions of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the original from the 50s, then the film Coffman Film in the 70s, which is really more about like kind of the paranoia of that era of history. And then able for our as Body Snatchers in the 90s, and then the kind of bungled, Daniel Craig Nicole Kidman movie, The Invasion from the 2000s. And I think just like that inherent feeling of being replaced, lives on forever and can reimagine it in a lot of different ways. Ponyo, did you know Ponyo is a reimagining? Of, of what? Of the little mermaid. I didn't. Yeah. Well, see, you know, that's again, we're trying to fix the fairy tales. Yeah, there's a Ponyo exhibit at the Academy Museum right now. I've heard it's great. Absolutely delightful. Yep. Would highly recommend all parents take their kids to see it. And honestly, if you don't have kids, you also would probably love it if you're like Miyazaki. Big Lebowski, kind of like Dashel Hammett novels.

51:20The Long Goodbye. Yeah. Bogart, all those things, but then sedamits, the low level angst of the Gulf War. I don't know, you know. I mean, the Long Goodbye for that matter. But yeah, totally, totally. Mirror, mirror. Well, yeah. So what happens in that one? Is that the Julia Roberts one? Yes. Okay. So Julia Roberts and Lily Collins. Okay. And Julia Roberts. And Julia Roberts. Not Lily James. Lily James is in the other one. The other Cinderella. Lily James is in the other Cinderella, yes. Because they came out around the same time. Yes. I think Mirror Mirror came first. Directed by Tarsam Sinch, director of the Fall and the Cell, two of the most beautiful movies of the last 25 years. Okay. And I believe it is really more focused on the Queen, played by Julia Roberts, the Evil Queen. Yes. And it is that shift in perspective. That's the other version of it. Is not just what about this woman who has sidelined in the story, but it's like, you know, I guess it is similar to cruel. And now I, I feel that villain retelling.

52:20I seem to recall that we've been quite poor. Mirror, mirror. Yeah. I didn't revisit it for our conversation. I was just happy that Julia Roberts was back. Okay. That's great. And now the fall is always in her letterbox for. So that's nice that that happened. Is that true? Yeah. Did she say that? Yeah. That's true. That's why, yeah, it's great. So I listened. Well, the fall is great. You know who the biggest fall fan I know is. Joanna Robinson. That, yeah. checks out. Last man standing. Probably haven't seen this one. Bruce Willis late 90s. 19th century Western gangster movie that is a remake of Yojimbo. Okay. So not the Tim Allen sitcom. Nope. Okay. Never seen that. Neither. Rob Zombie did this with Halloween. First Halloween bad. Second Halloween good. That's my take. Don't have me. I don't know. What else? What's the best version of this? What's the absolute most lever insightful essential reimagining we've ever gotten?

53:24The Da Vinci code. Okay. Thank you for taking this so seriously. It's in the loose. I appreciate it. You know what I mean? Thank you. You think it's still there? Where do you think it was heisted too? Do you know anyone check? You have only seen the movie once. Don't really know what you're talking about. It's the holy grail which is actually a chalice that I think like Christ drank from but maybe no no no no no no no no no no that's what the original is. And then in Da Vinci code the chalice is actually the womb. That's what it is because yeah it's the feminine sacred. That's yeah it's women. That's why it's reimagining. Okay. We did it. We fixed Christianity. You may recall there was a years-long running bit on this show about the holy grail. I was going to ask if you were going to bring that to Steven Spielberg. Some questions about the last crusade. No I was just no if you were just going to start with I don't believe in the grail. You don't care about it. You think I should only make statements to him and not ask questions.

54:24But do you care about it now that I've told you that in the Da Vinci code it's about the the womb and women's power? Do I care about it? Yeah. Now are you like sure the holy grail I'm into it? I mean it's not real. So I don't know what you're asking me. You don't know but so then the implication of that in the Da Vinci code is that there is like a line of descendants of Christ and Mary Magdalene and then like the holy grail is like all among us. Maybe the holy grail is in you. So when you go to the bookstore and you look for the book the Da Vinci code that book can be found in the fiction section which is means it's not real. Some guy made it up and it's a reimagining. You see? Yes, there was somebody had an imagination. In the 15th century they came up with a holy grail. That's not something that happened during Christ's time on earth. Do you think it's earlier than that? I thought it was roughly around that time. Holy grail. Let's just Wikipedia this real fast. Okay, 1190. Wow, okay. There we go. 12th century, pretty good. A mysterious grail appears in Percival the story of the grail.

55:25Intriguing. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day-to-day, but our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think that weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW and the other drivers out there, grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn more at www.com. Let's go to the secretation. Okay. Dunjoman's worked so far. I thought that was productive. Yes. Well, the secret agent is a movie that we did talk about very briefly back in November when Claibor Mendoza Filio was on the show. And that was a wonderful conversation and I would encourage people to go back and listen to that after listening to this conversation that we're going to have. In part because the movie is now available on Hulu. It only opened in a very select few theaters in the fall. It was hard to see. We waited a long time to get through it on the show in any depth. I'm excited to just do so with you now. I'm now seeing the movie three times. This film stars Vognomora, Carlos Francisco, Tanya Maria,

56:28Roberto Dionese. It is essentially, though I don't think we can contain its multitudes in this very brief summary. In 1977, Marcelo, a technology teacher, moves from São Paulo to receive it during Carnival to escape his violent past and start over. He finds the city full of chaos and his neighbors begin to spy on him. You rewatched it? Oh, yeah. What was your takeaway on the second watch? I think the first time that you watch it, you're trying to figure out what is happening and not in the bride in coherence sort of way, but just in a, this is a film that is structured untraditionally and doesn't have a lot of like capital E exposition, you know, it's not saying to you. So we are here in 1970s, something Brazil. And here's the political structure in Brazil or lack thereof. And here is where these people are. And here's what they do for a living and where they're going.

57:30You're thrust into this world. And to me, what is most memorable and exciting about this movie is how vividly it creates that world and how the exposition it gives you is about like a place and time and people. And so you don't, you can infer what you need to know about a military dictatorship or even like what the character's job is or what the character's name is, you know, the actual facts and characters and plot, as you mentioned, are not, you know, immediately obvious, but also beside the point. And so once I understood the arc of the story and kind of understood where everything was going for my first watch, the second watch I could just really revel in like these amazing set pieces and this creation of a world that I know very little about, but really feel completely immersed in.

58:31And so obviously the opening sequence at the gas station is, you know, a short film all its own and like chilling and memorable and its own form of exposition. And some way it's like you know everything that you need to know in those first 15 minutes. This is the way this world works. But you know, like the the current of all scene and all the scenes at the movie theater and this recreation of life and thus, it's like very fully realized, wonderful people. Like there's a reason that we gave Tanya Maria who plays Donia's Bastiana, the big pick, the alternative Oscar and that she has just, you know, been such a reference point because it is a small performance that is instantly someone you not only remember, but want to spend time with. And like, so I don't know that much about these people at the end of it, but I feel like I really understand everything that is created. So it's a magical movie.

59:33It is really magical. It's very complex because it is a lot of different kinds of movies happening all at the same time. And I compare it to the bride because I do think that film student brains and I think both Maggie Jones Hall and Mendoza have film student brains tend to do that recombinant thing where they're kind of pulling a lot of influences very much. Sometimes on the surface, sometimes more deeply ingrained in the stories that they're telling. This is a very deeply ingrained version of that where that opening sequence that you talked about said at the gas station is like pure Alan Pacula. Like it is a 70s conspiracy thriller where you're like, it's very tense. No one is explaining what is going on. There's a dead body in sight. And we're worried for our character. We're like, this is, he has to, it is worn baby in the parallax view. Something is not right here and he has to get free. And that's an incredible sense of mood and atmosphere that he shows you right off the bat in the movie. But then as the movie begins to unfold and we start to learn a little bit more about Marcelo, it becomes very clear that it's

1:00:36a movie about a man trying to get back to his son, which is a different kind of dramatic story. And then it's also a movie about this kind of found family of dissidents and exiles who have found themselves in Recife in Dono Sebastiana's home. And they're in safe harbor and they're trying to figure out how they can stay free and stay safe for the rest of their lives. And then it becomes a different kind of political thriller, almost like a gangster movie with the hitman and this ornate plot around trying to capture a man. And we don't really know why they want to capture him. Until very far into the film. I mean, almost two hours and ten minutes when we start to learn really who Marcelo actually is and how he became ensnared in this plot. So the movie is extraordinarily complex, but it's not a breakneck thriller. It's a very language, yes, slow paced. And it really, it's not just that it doesn't reveal anything to you. Like really, let's you sit in the world. Now, sometimes that doesn't work for me in films.

1:01:38And this is the rare case because I think what you're describing, which is like the idea of holding back on information, it kind of like gets you leaning forward and forward and forward. And I think it's like a pretty magical act of synthesis. I think also just the way it communicates the way it embraces that pace. And it like uses that time and the downtime really well. I had forgotten that right after the gas station, the Marcelo character is just driving to Chicago. Baby, please don't go. And you're just and you kind of get some you get some carnival scenes. You get some like some hallucinations like along the road or are they? And you don't totally know what you're seeing. And it's is moving slowly. Like he's just driving. And I think they're showing some of the credits. But you're also completely wrapped. And it's not telling you what is happening, but it is telling you a lot about the world that you're in. So I don't know.

1:02:39I think there is something about it knows exactly what it wants to create and how you want to feel. How it wants you to feel in a way that I like caught instantly. Even though I honestly couldn't tell you still like Marcelo or Armando's like total political history and employment history. Like I have most of it, I think, but I couldn't diagram it for you. I don't think it matters. We can talk through some of it and kind of where where what they reveal to us and what we think he is why he is and he's being pursued. But I agree with what you just said about hearing that Chicago song. And then honestly, there's such interesting choices of Brazilian music throughout the film. This kind of Brazilian pop, Brazilian folk throughout that does the same thing in the movie. I think that the the use of Hollywood movies does for the movie, which is that it shows you the ways in which popular culture and popular art can suffuse people's lives, can change their feelings about things, can create a sense of dread. This idea of jaws and to a lesser extent, the omen

1:03:44as these hovering gods over the movie. And this idea of like you're being pursued by something that is bigger and more dangerous than you is just such a sexy, you know, film essay idea that Mendoza has put his arms around. And the Chicago song is sort of the opposite, right? Which is like in that time in popular music, you could like seek escape with a pop song like that. Yeah. But there is something kind of lurking around the corner beyond that escape. That is really interesting when that sort of masked face comes up when he's driving early on and you're like, oh my gosh, what is going to happen to this man? So I found that part of it really fascinating. It's also like all of Mendoza's movies or at least all of his scripted films. It's got this phantasmagoric genre thing going on that is way outside of the real world construct of the rest of the movie. In this case, it's this leg. Yeah. There's a there's a leg that has been discovered in the body of a shark at the beginning of the film. And that leg kind of takes on a life of its own. And it goes on kind of a spree at a certain point in the movie. And it takes us into these,

1:04:45it's one of a series of side quests that the movie goes on too, which is one of the reasons why it's so long and languid where we're just like, okay, so we're just following a leg in this park, which is sort of like a gay cruising meetup space and kind of like a space for where people can really live and be themselves while living under the fascist thumb of this regime that is happening in Brazil in 1977. That is just another thing where like no other director is doing this. This is singular. You know, there's not. And when we talked about Bacarão in 2020, it was the same thing. There are aspects of that movie that feel like it just turns into a horror movie for 10 minutes and then stops being a horror movie for a while. That is a really bold stroke that I really like. Yeah, but it's also it's still grounded and it's still like it's a very realistic leg. And even the way it's filmed, you know, it's like hopping around like a leg wood and you see all of the wounds or that you like you get it like an over the head shot of it's of how the muscles are moving and it's like very gross and a little funny still and just like moving as if that is really happening.

1:05:51And then it's reported in the papers and then the care so the other characters the dissidents in a like very lovely emotional scene that scene starts off with them reading it as it's it's not like fantastical in the world of the story or it's no more fantastical than anything that it else that is going on in this time of mischief as the film introduces it and also I hadn't realized as Donia Spastiana says she gives a toast and she says in me there, you know, made this child grow up in a Brazil with less mischief. Right. It's a really interesting choice too because it's based on a true thing that happened in the 1970s in Recife, the Pernambuco Daily was writing about this leg as a way to kind of like disguise censored news about police violence, corruption, homophobia that they would use these like an active metaphor to communicate to the reading public. Right. Here's what's really going on in your city right now and here are the ways in which you're

1:06:52being controlled by the nation state, which is so interesting to literal to literalize that, you know what I mean the movie making that to manifesting that idea that is only meant to be red, you know. Yes, but it is also it is then also literalizing like that violence and but not actually showing the actual it would be a very different movie if you saw in that cruising park people being arrested or people being beaten or like the state actually, you know, coming through that was kind of getting kicked by a straight leg. Yeah. And and when they discuss it later like we it's communicated that like we all know what it means. Yes. And we all like understand what it's meant to represent, but the film really does recreate these like great terrors and violence and people being kidnapped and murdered and in us in a not like mythical but a mythical sort of way. I think so. Yeah. I think so. I think I you know, I feel like we've compared every single movie this

1:07:55season two one battle after another, but this is a very similar movie to one battle after another. Right. It's about kind of like two secret societies, one operating in pursuit of revolution, one operating in pursuit of like taking full control over the people and the lengths that one will go to and the lengths that the other will go to and then the long term ramifications of that kind of internet and battle in a community. And it's really fascinating. Mendoza's previous films called Pictures of Ghost is a documentary that is sort of like a memory doc about him thinking about receipt and being in receipt in the 70s. And it's a really interesting kind of like I think it's probably better seen after seeing the secret agent actually, but the fact that so much of this is just true. And also comes one year after I'm still here, which is also exploring a similar time, you know, the same time in Brazilian history. And that movie had a very, very ground level impact on a single family and a single woman. And this movie is very much about the person who we're going to talk about momentarily in his character. But it also is about this wide community and the people in

1:09:00don't miss about Shionna's home and the people who work where Marcelo goes to work and the ways in which they live with the police force and the community that is affected by these crimes that start happening around his existence in the city. It's just a very, it's very big. Yeah. It's unusual for a movie to be able to contain this many ideas and things and strands and kind of make them feel coherent. And I think the number one reason why they feel so coherent is because Wagner more the whole movie is on his shoulders. Yeah. And he's not in every scene. But if you don't have him, you can't flow through all this other stuff. And he he is carrying it and carrying like so much of the emotion and fear and like narrative thrust. While also gliding and observing and appreciating the everyone else that he sees. And he is really like the audience's vehicle and

1:10:02entrance into everything else that we learn. But I was really struck by the the coronavirus scene on rewatching with Wagner more enters. And it's just like a recreation of a street and like a joyful parade moment. And you know, and Udo Kier, the late Udo Kier is kind of in the in the background dancing as well. It's a real slice of life. And you watch Wagner more like behold it and appreciate it. And then he gets in the mix and he starts dancing too. And you know, and it's an appreciation and an involvement that like comes from experience. It's lovely. So he definitely his character threads everything together. And the the appreciation for everything around him that he gives the character like I think extends to the audience. I think so too. He's a very warm actor. He's very easy to connect to. He's giving a handful of different kinds of performances in the movie though because there are plenty of times I feel similarly about his kind of introduction

1:11:04to Donia Sebastian as world where he's feels very warm. And he's kind of like excited to be welcomed into a space and to meet all these new people. He finds a girl that he's interested in. You know, he makes friends very quickly. He gets kind of acclimated to this little mini utopia that she has going on. But then for a lot long stretches of the movie, he's anxious. He's nervous. He feels under threat. He's he is giving like a parallax view or clue kind of performance where he has to be very watchful, very quiet, very careful not to make a mistake so that he can survive in these circumstances. And then also he's carrying with him this burden of just not being able to be with his son. Yeah. And he sneaks off early in the film to go have a moment with him. And then the movie eventually brings that thread back around and I think a very beautiful way. And so what it ultimately leads to is an actor we've been talking about Michael B. Jordan playing two roles. He plays smoke and stack and centers. This is kind of three roles. It's two men but two iterations

1:12:07of Armando who is the original version of Marcelo before he has to change his identity. And then later Fernando his son at the end of the film. And he looks different in all three. He's got different haircut. Even his complexion looks different. He feels like a different person. And the same way that when we were talking with Wesley about what MBJ does to kind of shift intonation and posture and communicate that these are two men. More does the same thing here in a really really impressive way. And that's part of why four months ago we were like this is one of the best best actor races of all time because you got multiple examples of this throughout this race. But you know I've always liked him as an actor. I interviewed him at Sundance in like 20. When do we go 2020? Yes. And I forget what movie it was that he was in that I spoke to him for. But you can see why he's so well liked and why there is still a contingent of people who think he's going to win the Oscar. Yeah. Because he's just a very magnetic person. And he seems very decent.

1:13:09Absolutely. You know a lot of famous people come tell. No, I think there was a there was a story at one of the Oscar events where he went up to my former colleague J. Dewan who was recently laid off at the Washington Post. And he like it was a day later. And he knew about this and was like he can afford, you know, Bezos can afford this and not that like very engaged with like the world around him. Yeah. And remembering that of her. So the story even of him and Mendoza getting together is so cool because you know Mendoza was a film critic for years. He talked about it when he was on the pod. And he met Mora as a critic. And they kind of just clicked. They struck up a friendship. Not when he was, you know, an exciting Brazilian filmmaker, but just a guy who was kind of covering festivals where they interacted with each other. And they kept up a relative correspondence. And I think it was Mora who was like, I'm ready for us to do something together. And so the you know, the film is clearly written with him in mind. And he's just absolutely phenomenal in this movie. I do think this is one of the craziest best picture nominees of all time.

1:14:14The sense that there's just a lot of going on and it's an international feature. Not from Europe. All kinds of different genre styles. Mm-hmm. A movie that I wouldn't say has a satisfying feel good aspect to it. It is a historical drama in a way, but to your point, it doesn't. It never really situates us comfortably. Yeah. Though I feel that I know a lot more about this time period from this film than I did from I'm still here. I totally agree. And one of the, you know, I was a little more resistant time still here because I felt like it was a little bit more traditional. Yes. And and tightly focused in a way that I found more similar to more Oscar movies in the past. And this movie having all of these tributaries of story and ideas and kind of manifestation of metaphorical ideas inside of the movie makes it a very odd product. And you know, I think it's also a movie that definitely plays better on a big screen. I'm sure that's true though. I

1:15:16have watched it at home. And you know, and was wrapped. Okay. I really, really, really liked it on the big screen. And I think it it's that language. There is a projectionist who is a major care. Many important scenes happen at the local movie theater. So a movie theater is a part of the last scene of the movie in its way. So I like I get it. It is it is a movie nerd movie. And I do think we have an increasing number of movie nerds voting for Oscars. It's a very good point. Just in the run up to the movie, Mendoza cited Robert Altman, Brian Dupalma, Sam Pekkenposs, Gorsese and Spielberg as big influences. Sure. It's nice for me. Yeah, it's very very wonderful to hear. But he also he's been programming some films related to it including John Borman's point blank, which has a similarly kind of like fractured editing style and is also a memory movie. So I think that's a really cool one. Ilya Petri is investigation of a citizen above suspicion, which totally the kind of like pursuit the the sense of mystery and paranoia. You

1:16:18can feel close encounters of the third kind. I've never seen Hector Babenko's Luchio Flavio, but this makes me want to go see a movie like that. So it's very cool stylistically. It's a it's actually not as complex as I thought it was going to be when I rewatched it. Like it's a lot of singles, a lot of close ups, a lot of two shots. There's some some slick camera movement with some of the action sequences, especially like the big pursuit and shootout near the end of the film. But it's not athletic as you used to describe it. Like it doesn't even though it has these flights of fancy structurally, I didn't find it to be kind of zany in terms of its craft. Well, no, no, no, it is recognizable and it it's production design and costume design are excellent and but still like very realistic. You know, they they are trying to recreate this area of this time and place in Brazil and like teach us about it. The costumes are unbelievable. And I think, you know, they are based on real pieces of clothing. But I was like I

1:17:23clocking like random shirts in one of the like at the ID office scenes. I mean, like I wonder how I would find something like that. And what am I going to people there is, but you can, you know, see the textures. You can see all of the places. The office, the apartments, the just it feels very, very lived in. And again, like not fantastical. Yeah, I think the movie also does a nice job of not over explaining but showing us the kind of class and regional differentiations in that country at that time in history, which I think still persists to this day, which is sort of like the North versus the South, the idea of communist influence versus capitalist influence and how those two things are colliding. And then let's like use that to talk a little bit about maybe actually what's going on with Marcelo aka Armando and then getting us to the end of the movie. So it's revealed late in the film that the man who has hired the hitmen to go after Marcelo is in fact an industrialist, a business owner in Brazil who as he describes has Italian origins

1:18:29but wants to control, you know, the ways and means of making transportation effectively. He's trying to control technology that would then influence their ability to build cars in a certain way and build other machines in a certain way. And that Marcelo aka Armando plays is a as a professor as an intellectual. He's a scientist. He's a person who develops things. He's developed a patent. Yes. It could be very, very powerful for this man to get control of. This man visits the university, which is a public university and comes in and kind of bullies his way into a form of control. And he's trying to eliminate people who will be standing in his company's way and their ability to make profit off of the work that's being done at this publicly funded university. So it's this real like head on collision of like social civic service versus capitalism. And that sends eventually Marcelo into exile where he becomes Marcelo. And the movie makes a really interesting choice, which is that he's pursued and we see him be pursued by this hitman who's terrifying in the movie who's sort of hired by the hitman.

1:19:34But Marcelo doesn't die in the face of that. He dies later. I mean, don't see him die. And we do we know if it's days or weeks or months later? It's unclear. Yeah. We don't really know what happens with his son. We don't know. Do we know where he's killed? I don't think so. Yeah. All we really know is that the movie has a framing device, not unlike Mary Shelley in the bride, where two young women working at a university are reviewing historical information about Brazil at that time. And they come upon the story of Armando and a lot of the materials, the recordings that he made while working with agencies and an attempt to basically be in witness protection. And they review all that material and that allows them to learn more about him and to learn more about his family. And eventually one of the women who takes a real interest in this case takes what she's discovered to a blood transfusion center. And she has blood taken and arranges a meeting with Armando's son, also played by Vognomora.

1:20:41And they have a conversation. She just said, here's what I found. Take it or leave it. And in the course of that conversation, they talk about his family history and how he sees and understands his family and his parents and memory. And we learn that he died, his father, but I don't think any specifics, right? No, we see a newspaper clipping. That's how we learn. And so we do see in a market difference to most of the other dead bodies that we see. I guess we do see some very grotesque shootout and flesh melting off. But I'm thinking about the recurring image of a body lying somewhere with a piece of cardboard or a piece of newspaper over it. And in this one, you see Armando. And like you see his face and you see him. But it is a newspaper photograph. And I think there's a caption that's like it's believed to be some sort of hit job. Right. Which is, that's a really good point about the cardboard in the newspaper. Yeah. And the idea of this kind of collision of that purpose, especially that moment where the

1:21:44younger hit man is murdered by the other hit man laid in the film and then in the barber shop. And then the barber shop owner comes in and puts a newspaper over his face. And it kind of like spiritual act of like covering him and protecting him in the aftermath of his death. And that collision of like faith, Christianity inside of a country that is maybe leveraging some of that faith against the people. Well, and also the headline that is on that newspaper is like the carnival death toll is 92 and rising or whatever. So all of this is happening, you know, of the backdrop of many other deaths and many other much other corruption and many other like people having problems. There's a there's a whole sub plot that I found like very moving and very upsetting that happens at the ID office when there's a deposition that's scheduled for very early in the morning so that the rich woman giving the deposition about the death of the daughter of someone

1:22:47who worked for her so that she doesn't have to deal with press and she doesn't have to deal. She's getting special treatment. And you see her and you see all the other people at the ID office responding to this in their own way. And it says everything about how this country is being run. And also like all of the other tragedies that are happening just off screen run of the mill every single day. Yeah, and it does feel like it is a daily series of tragedies at this time in history. And then at the very end in that moment with his son Fernando, as he's escorting this woman out, he tells her as you mentioned that this blood center where he works as a doctor is where the movie theater is where he got to see jaws. And we learned earlier in the movie that he has been obsessed with trying to see the movie jaws. Right. And the jaws I think to this day is the ultimate test of one is your child ready to see a certain kind of movie. It is the movie that the young kids say I want to see this. I want to see this even though they know they're going to be terrified. Yeah. And no doubt it was the case for for Mendoza. And he's kind of filtering that

1:23:52idea and that you know, being able to see that movie. And then the movie Fernando says, I've been scared of this movie all the way up until the moment that I saw it. And then after I saw it, all the fear went away. And first of all, who can really more just absolutely, it must be a great movie goer. But just like a really deeply felt and considerate and emotional and complex series of emotions about the way that we reckon with terrible things that have happened in our lives. And for somebody like me, the way that they're often interwoven with my consumption of art and how much I think about it. Yeah. And what you remember and what and how you remember and what what stays as the construct of your actual life. And it's also introduced in this idea of coincidence because the woman who goes to visit him has family there. And you know, and that's part of the reason she's wanted to come. And he says, here's the real coincidence where I saw that

1:24:53movie theater where the fear ended is this place where he's working now. And you know, he says, that he didn't really want to speak with her. And he says, really, I think of my grandfather as my actual father. I mean, which is sad and heartbreaking. And so it's beautiful. And nothing is like handed to you on platter, right? Even that, you know, he said, he says the thing about the movie theater. And that just holds on the blood bank for a while. And the last you just watch him walk back through the fluorescent lighting. And you're just sitting there thinking about what's there and what's not there. His performance when he's talking to her. Yeah. It's so interesting because it's restrained but shattered at the same time. Like you can tell he's really trying to hold back from losing it because he has been able to kind of put this away. Like this story, this aspect of his life is something that he doesn't want to deal with because it's so painful to him. And he has made peace with the fact that is Alexander is his real father. And that that's how

1:25:58he just sees his life. But that she has dredged something up that is very painful. But she's also done this extraordinary thing for him at the same time, which she's given him access to his father's voice and his story and how he felt and why some of these things happened in the way that they did in a way he could never understand before. And the movie is very, very similar, almost in direct connection time still here in that way. Where the ending of I'm still here with the flash forward and the older woman thinking back on her experiences and then her family being gathered in this, you know, we can be flip about generational trauma. But this is actually when it's okay to use that. Or it's like it's real world circumstances, but creating like an imagined story and using those real world circumstances to kind of infuse a story with more weight. With more heft. You know, some kind of movie that talking about it just makes you admire it more. I think it's a real, real achievement. I look, I really look forward to seeing what Mendoza does. He's so the really interesting movie thinker. I hope more people will actually. It still does feel like it's the least scene of the best picture documentary, which is just a matter of

1:27:02logistics. And yeah, I'm hopeful. I think both it and did sentimental value also go live at the same time on who I feel like they both went up around the same time. And so, you know, that's kind of the consequence of the can conversation that we had were neon scooped up. These four movies and or five movies. And there was only so much that they could do to get attention around them. Do you think that the secret agent is? I guess we don't want to spoil our Oscar picks. I don't really know what to do in international. I think I do. Revising the movie. I'm like, this is fucking good. It's wonderful. The value are like they're so close for me. I agree. I do think we as an Oscar community have overlooked the fact that sentimental value has four acting norms, screenplay, international director and best picture casting was it was not nominated in casting despite having four acting norms. I think I don't remember. And so it's quite strong.

1:28:09And I do think also that in terms of the nominations, the nominating process is that it is a smaller body of voters. The secret agent is nominating casting. Well, yeah, as it should be. But it's a smaller group of voters who are doing the nominating just because of who signs up and who agrees to watch all the international features. So you do wonder if it goes wide to the to the entire voting body whether more people will, whether sentimental value, though apparently it's still renting. It's not on Hulu until March 23rd, according to the googling. Oh, interesting. Okay. That's no, but that doesn't, I mean, that doesn't matter for the Oscar. No, we didn't even mention the whole, you know, the update about how you do have to watch the films to vote or you would at least have to click that you have, but you have to click through each one. So there's like a added steps physical steps. Yes. Yes. You think that's going to work? No. You think people will just vote? Yeah. I think so. I think they're, I think they'll probably vote

1:29:11later. So that's kind of interesting. Like maybe the cat story really will affect Jesse Buckley because it came out later in the window. But perhaps it's funny. I've got one more movie to watch that is Oscar nominated that I have not seen. I've seen all the shorts. I've seen all the animated features. I've seen, as we mentioned, all the documentaries we'll get right into momentarily. And I haven't seen Cocoa. Oh, okay. Just nominated for best makeup and hair style. But you have seen the Matthew McConaughey fire movie. I have the lost bus. Yeah, that's on my list. Okay. You're really getting into the makeup though the effects category. Well, listen, I'm trying to do it all as well. Yeah. I have four documentary shorts left. Okay. I have two animated features because I forgot that I hadn't seen all of those because I thought I was so ahead by having seen three of them before, you know, a little homily and Arco. It's fine. That's, you know, it's like three hours of movie. It's okay. I also, I'll just turn them on with my children. You know, we'll consume them

1:30:12together. And then knocks my like Arco. I have seen all the documentaries, seen all the international features. So I have Cocoa, Cocoa and the lost bus. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title industry company role, seniority skills company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. So why LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash the big picture terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Walt Disney World Resort, the most magical place on earth. Imagine a world of culinary capers in Remi's Ratatouille adventure or world of

1:31:16mystical rivers and flying banshee's in Pandora, the world of Avatar, or a world of dazzling lights under the stars in an all new nighttime parade, Disney starlight, dream the night away. Well, you don't have to imagine it. You can live it because infinite worlds await at Walt Disney World Resort. Is it Disneyworld.com to learn more and discover a world of magic this summer across all four theme parks? Let's talk about best documentary. Okay. We have not covered any of these movies on this show at all except for a handful of quick mentions in the January 2025 Sundance episode. That's notable because literally all five of these movies premiered at the Sundance Film Festival. Yeah. And that's something that's been talked about quite a bit in recent years that Sundance is the true launch pad, the true power of Sundance. And the 2020s has been as a space for documentary. And we mentioned how can is the new birthplace of big Oscar campaigns and the way that Venice and

1:32:19Berlin and tell your ride and all of these other festivals. Toronto, New York have to respond to that primacy. Sundance has obviously come down in some respects as a launch pad for scripted films. And it's not quite the thing that it was in the 90s. But for documentaries, it's still extremely powerful and predictive. I find that interesting when I think about the documentaries I saw this year. I didn't see everything obviously because I only watch virtually. So I missed a lot of stuff. I don't know that I see five, but I don't know that I would have predicted these five a few months ago for this category. I don't think we did when we made predictions. No, we get two out of five maybe. Maybe three, but the third one differed between us. Yeah. It's going to be hard for us to have extended conversations of all five of these movies. And I don't think that's what we'll do here. I am kind of curious when you look at the nominees. I would like to. I'm ready. I've seen all of them. I've got opinions. I do too. And we can tell I just mean like we're not going to have a 40 minute conversation about each movie. Okay. But based on what's nominated here. Yeah. How do you feel about the state of the best documentary category in the branch?

1:33:19Not good, but this is a real, this is a sort of a disaster, I think. And I don't. So the five films as is the documentary, documentary branches want are about like very important and deserving topics. And I don't want to diminish the topics themselves, the subjects of the documentaries, and or the fact that documentaries should be about important things. Like, you know, I like a fun, you know, romp through Martin Scorsese's life as much as the next person. And I thought that was really well made and fascinating, but I it's not that they're not fun. That's not the problem. It's that I have this sort of serious ethical and and or filmmaking concerns with almost all of them. Yeah. I am my my concern is more around the idea of the branch only being interested in these kinds of stories. That in a way, in an attempt

1:34:21to kind of confirm an identity around what makes for a great documentary, there's no room for anything that has some of that experimentation, a different tonality, something that I think you're finding more and more in best picture, which is just just a lot of different kinds of movies getting nominated for best picture now. And I've really enjoyed that. And I think we've generally just been a little bit higher on what best picture has been in the last three or four years because it seems like there's variation. And this feels like the third or fourth year in a row where it's five very serious, I think mostly well made movies about very serious issues in the world. But that there is a kind of drabness and darkness and we are all screwedness to these films. And that that kind of communicates to the world at large at this award show that the best you can do in documentary is take the most severe story possible. For example, the awful nature of the

1:35:22prison system in some states and in, for the most case, nationwide. And that that is the only kind of thing that merits the highest prize. There was a period of time when this was not true with the Academy Awards. There was a period of time when folks like Morgan Neville were being awarded for their films, 20 feet from Stardom as a memorable one, searching for sugar man as another example of this. Amy is another example of this. That was a wave. That was an era. And then maybe they over indexed that era and the kind of like musical or or biopic kind of thing. And then there's been this dramatic over correction to the kind of starts with American factory, which is a terrific movie. But amazing. But but I think kind of sets the tone. And with the exception of my octopus teacher, most of the movies that win here are movies of great social import. And so you're in trouble with animals internet again. I'm so they didn't think the octopus. Yeah, and they're one the Oscar and they so I know I hear you. I'm out. Okay, let me let me just give

1:36:22the nominee a year. I would say though about that is that I do find at least and I wonder if you're the same way. You spend more time watching consuming documentaries. I watch a lot of documentaries. But because these are serious subjects and these are things that I take really seriously. Um, and that they are important. I do find I I'm watching them more as journalism than I am as film. And I like I definitely have notes on some of like the film making choices in these. But well, four of these five movies effectively are journalism. Yeah. And I have some issues with their journalistic standards. Yeah. So that that's a that's a real problem. But I do find that I haven't. That isn't what doc is. Yeah, you can't you can't I know what you're saying, but you can't conflate the two. Like it can they can do acts of journalism in documentary, but that's not ultimately the purpose of documentary. Yeah, but I sort of like these are so important. Like you can't do accidental journalism in my opinion. Like I think it's intentional, but that's not the totality of the film experience to and that's what I'm holding against them. They're accidental and

1:37:23not exactly rigorous journalism. I hear you. I think there are definitely some instances in this like that where I fully agree with you. So let's go through them one by one. Um, the Alabama solution, which is directed by Andrew Durecki and Charlotte Kaufman. Very small side note. One Andrew Durecki, a very claimed documentarian, um, probably best known for the jinx, the HBO mini series, which is at at a minimum wildly entertaining and also had real world results. Um, we'll never forget watching that finale life. Yeah. Um, Charlotte Kaufman is the daughter of Lloyd Kaufman, the longtime impresario behind trauma entertainment, a kind of like B movie independent machine that I have admired for many, many years. And it's fascinating that she, this is what she's doing with her career. So the movie is about incarcerated men in Alabama who, you know, by acts of protest, expose the awful conditions within the prison system in the state of Alabama. And it's a six year investigation. It utilizes a lot of footage filmed by the incarcerated

1:38:27individuals. It shows the inhumane conditions, rat infested cells, no air conditioning, drug use, violent deaths. Um, Robert Earl Council and Melvin Ray are the two men or sort of at the center of the story. There's one significant death that kind of animates this movement. Um, and the family members who were affected by that death kind of pushing for change within the system. The film spends a lot of time speaking to the incarcerated figures, but then also gives you some of the political context of Alabama at that time and the leadership and the reason why things are the way that they are. Um, I will say I think this is a very sturdy, classical, yes, very well intentioned, very well made, unfussy, unflashy, but I would say a little technology forward version of an American documentary issues documentary. Yeah. It's not a bad movie. No, not at all. And I would say this is, it's an, it's an effective platform. And this, but this is, this is platforming a very worthy issue and the work of a lot of people both inside the system and outside.

1:39:33Um, in order to raise greater awareness of not just Alabama's prison system, but as you said, the United States system in general, um, gives the appropriate Alabama context, but it's, you know, and it does have, I thought the way that they used the mostly FaceTime footage was effective. I agree. Added something new to it, but other people are doing the work for this and the, and the work has been being done for a while and so they are just trying to give a voice to it. And I think they give, like, an effective voice. I agree it's not the most innovative. Though again, I liked the way that they used the footage. Um, and it's very clear. And I didn't have any of the ethical concerns that I had with some other footage because the activists, um, the incarcerated men who are working on this are like, they're leading the project. Yes. So, you know, it's really tough to watch. It's, it's horrible. I'm, I'm, I'm glad that I'm not glad about anything, but I think it's important that I saw it. I agree. I think it is,

1:40:37it is very standard. Yes. Um, as somebody who has produced documentaries for HBO, there is a certain strand of HBO issues oriented documentary. There's a long history of it. This feels also very much in keeping. I think with a lot of, like, um, frontline style documentaries that you would find that often find their way into the Academy Awards where, um, not only are its intentions good, but its issue is urgent. And you can feel the humanity of the people that are affected by the story. I don't think it's as kind of like structurally or even intellectually as riveting as I would like for something like this to be. That's, that's really more of just a subjective point of view where a film like this matters, but is this a question of like, what is the purpose of this award? Is the movie like this raises to me? I found that it had like a lot, lot less deafness relative to something like American factory. It's kind of operating in the same vein. It's, it's like an information dump rather than a narrative. Yes. Yes. And I mean, there is narrative within it because

1:41:38they're telling you what has happened over time, but it is very expository. Um, and very much like and then this and then this as opposed to you not knowing what's going to happen. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a good, it's a good documentary. Yeah. Um, and, and it's the one that I think makes sense as a nominee. I can't remember if you and I both picked this to be nominated. I think just because I felt like beyond paper of it, I was like, this just makes sense for what they've been going for recently. I'm curious to hear what you think of Come See Me in the Good Light. Which is directed by Ryan White, Full Disclosure, Filmmaker, I've met with many times. Somebody I really know personally and like very much. Um, the movie is about, uh, two folks trying to come contextualize and come to terms with the terminal cancer diagnosis. Um, the Colorado poet laureate Andrea Gibson, um, and their partner Megan Falley and the way in which they're sort of working through this period in their lives where they're coping with this, um, very, very painful illness. Um, I wasn't crazy about this movie when I saw it at Sundance, and I'm not crazy about it

1:42:39now. Same. I think some of that is kind of personal preference with how you deal with emotions, um, relationships and, and cancer for sure. I will say I thought I hadn't seen, um, the, the moment where you're logging onto a medical, a medical portal to get your results captured on film in this way. And that is like a, have as multiple times in this film. And it's, and, and it is used. They understand the important, I mean, of course they understand the import of the moment. They're there. But it is a like very modern phenomenon that is so strange. And I think the experience of it and even the conversation they have after one bad portal results where Andrea Gibson is like, I feel better now because it was the anticipation. And then their partner is like, no, no, no, no, I feel way worse because I prefer the hope. So I thought that was cool. And I think, you know, there are moments of, uh, not cool. I mean, it was devastating. But I was like,

1:43:45huh, I've lived that. And I know a lot of people have, and I haven't seen it before. And it illuminates something about our modern life that, that like, I respond to. But I think everything else, I just, I don't, my relationship doesn't look like their relationship. Like in many ways, but just the way that they are so emotionally open. I'm not an emotionally open person. We know that. So that, um, I, I didn't respond to that. And then, or it's not that I didn't respond to that. It's very sad. And they look like they had a loving relationship. But I think also, um, the movie is very brave. I think Andrea in particular is very brave to say that they want to put this stage of their life on camera. It's interesting because this movie premiered at the same Sundance where a movie called Andre is an idiot premiered, which is a movie about a man who also was given a colon cancer diagnosis and captured it. And the last days of his life, the last weeks, months, years with his life and his family are also in it. That movie has a completely different

1:44:46tone. It is more of this story of like a mad cap kind of marketing and commercials expert, who is kind of like unwinding intellectually what it means to be at the end of his life. And this is very much about the single crisis of knowing you're going to die. And then the paired crisis of being in a relationship and having that be. And that's something that these two people were looking for for their entire lives. And they found each other. And some of what the, some of their love over time is captured in archival. And then some of it is captured in extraordinarily intimate detail in this, you know, contemporaneous footage. It's a, it's a tragic set of circumstances. I've lost many people to cancer. It is the worst thing you can ever go through. I didn't really like spending time going through it. Yeah. I remember what I was going to say, which is I don't know whether you've experienced it in any of your many cancer experiences of loved ones. But sometimes people like to start a cancer blog. Do you know about this? We're a medical treatment blog where if it's sort of a prolonged process in the theories instead of having to like update

1:45:53every single person, well, this is how it's going. We got this. We got that which like is exhausting. And in, you know, um, and nobody wants to do that. So instead you just write. There's like a central place where you can go and kind of keep an update of it. And that way everyone can know and everyone can like support you on the journey, which I think is a really like lovely idea. And I've never had cancer. I've had other medical things. And I just, it's not what I relate. I don't. The sharing and the openness of it all just is not how I would process it. Yeah. I think I'm, let's make them as a surprise, a little more open than you are at times, but not this open. And I think there's also just frankly something about being a spoken word poet that is very performative and in sort of like both metaphorical and straightforward about who you are and how you define yourself. And a lot of their work, both of these poets, is interwoven in the story in a way that is meant to communicate that is meant to define them. Yeah. And

1:46:57I think for some people, this will be the most devastating movie that they see all year. It is devastating. Let's not be real. I know. But it's sort of ordained to I think Ryan White captures moments of intimacy that are mind blowing, especially at the end of the movie where you're like, he's there with them. Yes. At the worst possible time. And they're not saying turn the camera off, which is itself like, I think that is essentially what's being celebrated here is the subject's willingness. Totally. And their braveness to do this. And I think those scenes, the observed scenes of those two people in these incredibly impossible moments of their life and of their relationship are by far the best part in the week. It does also use like a lot of direct to camera. It uses a lot of Gibson's performances. And all of like the framework feels conventional. But when they are just living, what it does capture is very, very raw and memorable.

1:47:59I think sometimes it's okay to just say like, subjectively, I just didn't really like watching the movie. Yeah. And I found myself feeling that there were a bunch of these where I was just like, this isn't really giving me what I want. And it's not, I can give you 20 other docs that I like this year that I think some of which were about meaningful issues, some of which were more intellectually explorational. But let's go to cutting through rocks. So this is directed by Sarah Kaki and Mohammad Dreserah Anyi. This is a movie that follows the first woman elected to counsel in their conservative Iranian village. Her name is Sarah Shah Verdi. And it's a character study. And over eight years, the film documents her fight against patriarchy, challenging child marriage and promoting education for girls by teaching them to ride motorcycles and often facing backlash. What did you think of this one? Martin for Sarah. Sarah, Sarah, I think Sarah. Sarah. Um, an amazing character. And I did think that this is pretty much all observed. There is,

1:49:02there's no talking heads. There's a tremendous amount of access. And, um, and it's like, what is communicated is not just like this one person's character, but the nature of the village. And I thought, you know, we live in a time where I don't, I really, really feel like I don't know a lot about what's going on in Iran. You know, like, and there's not a lot of, yeah. I mean, I know, I know some of them. Now more than, now more than ever, I know that I think that the US shouldn't be bombing it, but that's it. That's that that's applicable applicable across the world. So, um, so I, and again, much like secret agent, there's not like someone there being like, so here is how this council works. And here are like the rules and here. And I did feel like I was learned. I did feel like it, like put me in this place. And mostly without condescension, observed what was going on and really grounded it through this character who's like a one-to-one.

1:50:08So I was, oh, like, I didn't dislike it. Um, I just thought it was, I felt very similar to a lot of other films like this that I've seen before. I, to me, I was, it is an important story. And I think the rights of women in that country in particular, I've been the subject. There's been dramatic protest in that nation for years over this issue. And it's an extremely relevant story, but it's not one that, and she is an interesting person, but it's not one that like really shed light on anything for me in any way. And I also felt that from a structural or craft perspective, you know, it's an important slice of life in a way. You know, it's about an important person, but I didn't come away from the film feeling like changed in a way or informed in a new way. I felt, I guess, somewhat connected to her. It's just that I didn't think that the film is extraordinary in any way. I think they found like a, you do have to find the right person, right?

1:51:10Even though there are billions of people on this earth, like not, they found like a not a singular character, but the right character is like very representative. And I'm like really rooting for her and even her face and the way that she responds to her brothers and to, there's a great scene where I believe as someone in her family, I believe it's her mother, but comes and and she's she's having trouble. None of the men in the village will listen to, will take any of her advice. And she's told again and again by everyone, like you just have to compromise, like you just have to listen to all these people, which is, you know, sort of depressing, but the older woman says to her, I mean, just think about how many people over time, how many men over time have lost power and how they've lost power and how so maybe you need to like try a different way. So you weren't like them. And I was like, this is an interesting, I don't know. I thought that the specifics were right in this one. But I agree that it's like, you know, it's not like earth shattering. Yeah. It's not American factory, but what is I think

1:52:15all five of these movies, I'll say four of these movies lack kind of dynamism that I'm looking for in the form at this stage of my life. Again, this is a subjective point of view. This is how I feel as somebody who has watched hundreds and hundreds of documentaries over the years. I often respond to kind of issues oriented ideas with some, you know, Errol Morris is my hero because he often takes a very unusual approach to unpacking complex incidents. And this is similar to his work in that it is focused on an individual who helps explain something, but it lacks maybe some of the interrogation that I think is very valuable in some of these situations. And the movie doesn't really give us, it kind of just assumes you're like, well, of course, this woman wants this. And here's why. But we're only going to show you this period of her life. And she's never going to look into the camera and tell you why she thinks something. And that's just not what I would have, that's not how I would have made a movie about her, but that's, you know, this is personal preference. Mr. Nobody Against Putin. This is a real bugaboo for you. So I'm excited to hear you talk about it.

1:53:21This is directed by David Bornstein and Pavel Talaqin. A Russian teacher secretly documents his school becoming a war recruitment center during the Ukraine invasion revealing the ethical dilemmas educators face with propaganda and militarization follows, uh, Pavel Talaqin, a beloved lighthearted teacher in a small industrial town near the Ural mountains. Yes. Thoughts on this one? Okay. So the film begins with Pavel Talaqin leaving Russia. And he is receiving instructions on how best to smuggle these tapes out of Russia in a safe way from the documentarians who he's working with. And so we are set up with the understanding that what he is doing and what we are about to watch would be of objection to the Russian regime government. Whatever we're calling it. And that by doing this, Pasha has been in

1:54:29enough danger that he needs to leave Russia in order to make these, this footage available. And then we watch a film in which he has secretly recorded many of his young students talking to camera, by name, everyone in his village. And they're all still in Russia. And identified. But he's left Russia so that he can show us these tapes. How is this not endangering every single person? Well, okay. So you mentioned this to me before we were recording. And do you think that the children are endangered by the fact that they are featured in the film? I mean, this is a, this is a movie about, this is a film about propaganda and the Russian government wanting to tell exactly one story and to indoctrinate every single person in its country and every single student to its view of its attacks on Ukraine and the world at large. So at one point, he films the classroom, which he's filming secretly. And he has a, I think,

1:55:34I don't know whether it's a Russian Democratic flag or some sort of subversive Russian flag up in the classroom. And all the kids are hanging out in there. And he's talking about how it's just like, Ben, you know, Hank, which rock on, like I'm with the kids, but how it is it not, if they're associated and this, it's so dangerous for this to be, you know, shown in Russia that he has to like leave and smuggle it out. I just, we aren't thinking about anybody else. I don't understand. And no one's even talked about it. Like I was googling for any sort of, yeah. I hope they're okay. They probably are, but like, did we not, we didn't think about this for a second? I don't, I'm not sure if there is actually any real world consequences for anyone who was filmed by him. So I'm not sure if that's specifically concerned me while watching it. I do think that part of my hang up with the movie is that Pasha is kind of an odd bird and it does feel like he has imagined like a little bit of a hero's journey for himself in a way that I found a little bit

1:56:36off-putting because he's exposing something. But it's what's being exposed here, I would say, is not shocking if you have read about the way that Putin operates in Russia and the way that that regime has been managed for decades. And so he is showing us something, but he's showing us something in like what I found to be a slightly vinclorious way. Like look at what I'm doing. And then I'm leaving. And then I'm leaving. And I think that we're responding in the same way to this as a person and this is a project that's undertaken by one person who has made himself the hero of his own story. And seems to think that he's like really, he doesn't think he's the only person suffering, but it is constructed around his experience. And I'm a little concerned for everybody else. Yeah, I mean, I at least wanted to ask the question. Well, it's somewhat similar to Echorus, the the documentary that won best doc seven or eight years ago, which was about

1:57:38the whistleblower who had worked on the on providing steroids and enhancements for Russian athletes in the Olympics. And the way that he kind of came forward and revealed the ways in which a lot of that worked. And that man was very valorized in that film in a similar fashion. He didn't make that movie. Someone else made that movie. Someone else told that story. Pasha, I think there's something very strange about some of his into into camera. Sure, which he's he's doing after he's like answered a random documentary email. And so he is he starts the project while still living in Russia. And and is already conceptualizing what he's going to do in the context of I'm the narrator of this story, right? Quite literally because he's into camera. Yeah, I mean, I did his mother is the librarian. His mother is there in a lot of the footage. Yeah, I know. I don't I don't know that those people are in danger per se. I don't know they're in danger,

1:58:40but it's impossible to know. But to me, it was more just that there is a kind of solipsism in this movie that thinks it is kind of an issues expose and ultimately becomes a character study of a guy who I think has a little bit of a hero complex. But then his heroism is to show us something that is no doubt bad that the the propaganda machine and the way in which this school that has been, you know, historically, this very healthy, comfortable safe space for education has been transformed into like a militarized zone. It's a way to teach children to become more excited about serving their country and joining the military and fighting the good fight against their evil counterparts in Ukraine. All of that is valuable and interesting in some ways, but the person who who is at the center of the story fell a little self-serving. 1,000%. So yeah, I mean, I did not enjoy the film. Yeah. And that this is nominated instead of 2,000 meters to Africa. Not ideal. No, not what you want.

1:59:47No, it's not ideal. The 5th nominee is the thorniest. I'll say. Sure. 5th nominee is the perfect neighbor, which is directed by Gidegan beer. It is about a seemingly minor neighborhood dispute in Florida that escalates into deadly violence. Police body cam footage and investigative interviews expose the consequences of Florida's stand your ground laws. This is a story of a woman named Susan Lorenz who shot another woman named as GKOans and kind of the lead up to that murder that is captured primarily through police body cam footage. Not entirely, but primarily. And this movie, which I did see at Sundance and was very moved by, I was struck by it. I found it to be quite shattering. I've seen the film a second time. I've read a lot about it and listened to podcasts about it, including our friend Wesley Morris' episode. And I have a very queasy feeling about it without detracting from its power. And I think

2:00:54similarly what it's attempting to expose. But the way in which it does so makes me somewhat uncomfortable. I'm curious how you feel about it. I agree. I think that it is formally very inventive or fascinating. And also emotionally and civically like devastating. Like a really, really, really difficult watch. And when I feel queasy, which I do, it's hard for me. I haven't teased out how much of that queesiness is just because of what I watch, which is I didn't, you don't actually see a woman be shot, but you hear a 9-1-1 call. Or you see ring camera footage of her child calling. You see her children be told that she is not coming back. And that's captured on body cam footage to that. I mean, that is just absolutely shattering to watch.

2:01:58The latter scene you described as the most paint I've been watching a movie in the last year. It's absolutely awful. And there is also something just awful if necessary, but isn't necessarily about this footage exists. Exist number one because a terrible thing happened. But also because we now just have surveillance footage of everything. Everything is on camera. And not just on camera, but on police body camera footage. So you're watching this through the perspective of the cops who have done nothing and showed up, you know, and showed up too late. Well, and that's not true because you've seen other footage. But it's the role of the police officer. And this is really interesting. For me, when I sat down to watch the movie, I thought it was going to be a different kind of thing. I thought it was going to be a police brutality movie. I thought it was going to be a movie about acquiring this footage and then showing us the ways in which the community, the police disrespect and abuse their power. And it's sort of the opposite.

2:03:01It's about the lack of intervention in these circumstances and the way in which that ultimately led to someone's murder. And the fact that there have been these series of 9-1-1 calls made in both directions about, you know, this conflict that this older white woman has with her, the children of her neighbors and the way in which she feels that she is being menaced and that they're kind of running rough shot over her property. Whereas the perspective of the community is that this is kids being kids. And we can see throughout the telling of this story that this woman, Susan Lawrence, unwell, not racist and prone to violence and aggression, like, you know, abusing private property and kind of breaking a gate, for example, which is one of those like glue that something is not right here. I think that the police in this movie are simultaneously like let off the hook, but also not really, it's not really examined like what the procedures should have been or could

2:04:03have been because we're only get it where the film is edited. It's not a a 1900 hour collection of bodycam footage around these events. It's there's a very manipulated series of footages that are showing us what how they're responding to these complaints. And they don't do enough. That's very clear. My real sense of unease around the movie is just this like compliance with the aftermath of this. And then this is something that will live forever for these families, for the people who are affected by this. The levels of consent around this for young children and whether or not this should be not just the document, but the most watch documentary of 2025, which I think it's got to be, you know, it's right because it's on Netflix. And because it's so shattering, it makes me feel worse about it, you know, because it's so real and so raw. And then I think also when we spoke to Wesley about it earlier this week too, the kind of like yada yada

2:05:06speeding up of the conclusion of the story around the Susan's fate, which felt kind of tacked on and that he's described it as like it felt like there was like a deadline or something to reach. Yeah. And then the movie, which is so kind of patient through the execution of this eventual crime and then speeding through the conclusion of it. Well, it's patient through everything that leads up to the murder, to the night itself. And then it spends a while on her interrogation, which again, you're just watching that security camp footage or, you know, investigate or not security camp, but investigate a room footage. But so again, you're watching from the perspective of the detectives who are both like slow to act. And you know, some of it and then and then like so polite to her throughout the whole thing. And so it's both invasive and also

2:06:11and and strange and like unmediated and also the way that it's mediated is both through through this system that the film thinks that it's inditing, but is maybe not effectively. Well, I'm not I'm feeling like it's well, well, also it's maybe it's also yeah. It's like look what we can do with this new level of technology unintentionally in a way. It's like well, I will use these powers to show us the real truth of these incidents. Right. But by doing so, you kind of effectively rubber stamp them in a way that feels like a little on examine on the filmmakers part. The movie has a real it's a real pickle because like there's something there is something undeniably powerful about what she has done. The way that the film is cut, the way that it makes you feel. I can't change how it made me feel the first time I watched it. I was it ruined my week. Like I was felt so bad about it. I don't remember what I said on the pod, but I think it really is

2:07:12a very it effectively communicates what it wants to, but the ways in which it does it. I have some concerns about and it's the kind of thing that like there will be a lot of copycats of this approach to filmmaking too. And this is considered like a sort of more elevated version of this kind of a story. I can only imagine what will happen with this kind of a story in the in even less skilled hands. Right. I don't know. I mean, this won the directing award at the Sundance Film Festival. And it was a big sensation. I think it was over the summer when it was released. And you know, a drawing attention to the standard ground laws. I think has great value because they're insane. Just the murder itself in this movie, which is through a door. Yeah, though again, I don't really think that it doesn't even it doesn't really serve the standard ground stuff. It explores unintentionally or not like the failures of like policing and how how we manage a community in this or we don't

2:08:18in this country. And you know, and then it also explores like what it means to have body can footage and surveillance footage and how how we should or shouldn't use it. Like those are interesting questions. But it does tip Wesley's point yadda yadda to the standard ground stuff. They're like, Oh, hey, do you Google that? She's like, I guess so. And then we don't even see the the trial. We don't that it's sort of an afterthought. Yeah. I don't know. This is a very odd collection of movies to me. Yeah. Maybe more usually than I typically feel. The race is also kind of kind of in a weird spot. Every single precursor for this award has gone to a different film. I don't know if I can remember a time where that was the case. The PGA went to my mom Jane, which is not nominated. Maris Ghargate is a documentary about our mom Jane Mansfield, which is pretty good. The DJ went to 2,000 meters 200 of code, which you mentioned. The BAFTA went to Mr. Nobody against Putin. The cinema eye honors. They're just really striking out this year.

2:09:19Tough one for BAFTA. Yeah. Cinema eye honors went to come see me in the good light. The CCA went to the perfect neighbor and the IDA went to the tale of Scylion, which was not nominated. That was from the filmmakers who made Honeyland, which was nominated some years ago. It didn't take me very long to come up with 10 movies. I would have nominated over these movies. Now some of them fall under that category of sort of celebrity documentary that we know has been discounted amongst the doc branch. And I understand why that is that there is a kind of fluffiness to that filmmaking. I agree with you about Mr. Scorsese. I found that that was a very compelling and deep character portrait of a person who we care about a lot, but its skill was part of the reason why. I don't even know if it was eligible in this category because it was more of a mini-series. But it is conceived fully as a film and it was originally supposed to be a two-hour film. The same is true also for P.E.S. himself. I don't know if you saw that. The Paul Rubin's doc series, it was a four-hour documentary that Matt Wolf made, that I thought was like,

2:10:21if it were considered as a film would have been a great rejoinder to the celebrity concern because you can sense Paul Rubin's discomfort and at times anger with the process of being profiled in a documentary. And in that film, he does not reveal that he has cancer while the film is being made and he dies in the middle of the movie. They don't get all the footage and they have to finish the movie effectively without him. It's a really interesting exploration of his life and what an interesting artist he was and somebody who loved P.E.S. as a kid. Very cool. What were some other favorites that you saw this year that you thought should have been here? The Laura Poitrus documentary about Sihar, Simarash cover-up was the big, I guess it was the snub in this category. And I don't really understand why this didn't make it. I guess it is more traditional and that it's about a person who has then experienced and reported on the great

2:11:24breadth of human tragedy in his lifetime. But he really has and I think it gets enough out of him as a subject plus brings his work to life in pretty like upsetting if standard ways that you'd think it would check the this is a... I'll tell you why I think it's dynamic. Hersh is portrayed as a murky individual in the movie who has done incredible things as exposed the worst corruption in America and the way the government works. And has also made mistakes. And the movie does spend some time on his mistakes. The things he got wrong, the ways in which his career has kind of had this very strange winding path. He's a sub-stacker now. He is not at the height of his powers of the New York Times. And part of the reason why I love the movie is the movie shows all that. And Laura Poitrus who has been documenting the documentaries for the last 20

2:12:24years as a as a as a documentary in is showing like the real challenge of this work in addition to the real ornery nature of Seymour Hersh. I think it's an amazing movie. I'm not stunned. It's not here as opposed to something like the perfect neighbor, which really makes you feel something. You know, and if you had to choose. Yes. If you had to choose one Netflix movie, the one that makes you feel is the one that they're probably going to go with. We saw my undesirable friends when precursors and epic critics awards and thought that was going to get. But I think that just the epic size of that movie, which is five hours in length and it's just a part one, which is going to be on movie. Actually, I'm glad it's actually going to distribution on April 3rd. People should check that out. That movie is very similar to cutting through rocks. But I think much deeper in terms of conveying what it's like to trying to make change within your country and also just the better

2:13:27movie about being in Russia than Mr. Nobody. Right. Again, more complex. Did you see Mr. Susper? I did. Okay. I want to talk about it forever. And I know that like no one's seen it. It's available to stream on criterion. Fascinating movie about a thing I've never heard of. Same. And a fascinating movie about psychology. So it's set in China where there is apparently a custom of hiring what is translated as a mistress dispeller to break up an extra marital affair. The movie starts by saying every one, everything that you are seeing is real and unscripted. Everyone involved, participants agreed to participate at the beginning and the end of the film as they came to understand, you know, the role of the mistress dispeller and the film itself. Fascinating. I start, I was an amazing way to start a documentary, especially after all the

2:14:27conversations we've just had about all the other documentaries and I was really leaned in and then I found myself, I don't believe any of this. Oh, you think it's fake? No, it's not that I don't think it's fake, but I, because I believe them, but then it leads to what is like a very interesting, it's a married couple and the woman learns that her husband is having an affair and she hires a marriage dispeller who's just like, you know, Dr. Becky for marriage in China. And, and, but that's a, that's a parenting, uh, Instagram, a guru. It's very like, yeah, how we do this. Yeah. And here's what we're going to do and she's even talking about like, if you present this idea psychologically this way, then this person will respond this way and we were going to manipulate all of these people into, um, no longer having an affair and being happy in your marriage. And then it shows just like a lot of incredibly long, open psychological conversations that are had between all three parties and this marriage dispeller.

2:15:33And I was just like, who is agreeing to talk to someone else like this this openly about their life? You can, you can feel it in the first conversation between the husband when the woman is introduced as a friend early on in the family. Yeah, yeah. Open this, the man has with this relative stranger is so surprising. Right. And they're being captured on camera. Right. But so, and you're like, what is this? But then they also said everyone involved agreed at the beginning. So I'm like, so does he know? And he's a great, like, what's going on here? It's still fascinating. It's kind of a what's it of a movie, but it's so interesting. Totally. Yeah. I definitely want to know more. And I like talking about, I don't know that I'd be like, this movie is vital and everyone must see it in the same way that the doc branch kind of feels about their nominees. But I never saw anything like this before. This is really kind of, it's kind of the bride of this group of movies that we're talking about here. I'm glad you watched it. I'm glad I watched it too. I think it's really interesting. Another movie that I came out of Sundance, loving and feeling like was super important was predators, which was about how to catch a predator and the ways, you know, the ways in which

2:16:37the TV industry and this apparatus of this show kind of ensnairs these potential sex criminals by using actors to bring them into these traps. And then the kind of like the knockdown effect that that has on what we perceive as entertainment in our culture. That movie is really, really well done. And I don't think really ever got over the hump in terms of audiences. Also Zodiac Killer Project is another movie that I liked a little bit. I may have talked about it after Sundance. It's a movie about a guy who was going to make a true crime documentary about a serial killer. And he's going to adapt a book that was covering these murders. And he lost the rights of the book at the last minute. And so he improvised and said, I'm going to make a movie that is sort of like a parody or commentary on what a true crime documentary is actually like. And so what he does is he's like, he'll go to a place and be like, if I were making this movie, I would go to this place. And you would hear voice over in which I would say this. And then I would

2:17:39show you archival footage that shows this person at this point in time. And then there would be newspaper covers. And he's kind of like dissecting and deconstructing what we get in true crime docs. It's very clever. There's no chance to movie like this would ever be nominated in the category. But stuff like this should be on the radar more of the branch, I think. Couple of other one. I mean, Megadoc. My beloved Megadoc. Also on the Criterian channel. Back in the news. You know, I don't think has a making of movie documentary ever one best doc. I don't think so. Even though this is an incredible one because it's a making of documentary. But it's also about the mystery of Francis Ford Coppola. Yes. And the legacy of Hollywood and what we do after the fact. And also like, you know, we are living in the era of all of the 80 something directors. No doubt. You know, trying to make one last or two last or however many last works. It's funny. If this were nominated, people would be like, Hollywood is up its own ass. But

2:18:40if it's not nominated, you're like, what the hell? What about Hollywood? Rellpex Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5 is a movie that I thought was not great. But was at least interesting, which is sort of like using George Orwell's writing to explore the myriad ways in which he was extremely, extremely prescient about where the world was going. And Damien Lewis is literally reading his words and you're seeing images from around the world of the ways in which they've been manifest and that he had this incredible vision. Khalil Joseph's black news terms and conditions, which is a movie that you can't watch now, apparently, is not on VOD, not on the streaming service, not in theaters, but was also a 2025 Sundance movie that is this kind of wild interpretation of black figures throughout the 1800s, redefining the way in which they should be seen, told in this really dramatic, unusual documentary style that also kind of smacked me during Sundance. But then I think maybe because it doesn't have

2:19:41proper distribution, didn't go through in the same way. Very quickly, just for anybody listening, cover-ups on Netflix, Mr. Spillers on Criterion, my undesirable friends will be on Mooby, Mr. Scorsese is on Apple, Predators is on Paramount Plus, Zodiac Killer Projects is on VOD, Puea is himself is on HBO, Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5 is on VOD, and Megadoc is on Criterion as well. Almost all these are accessible. What do you think is going to win in this category? Don't tell me. Haven't decided yet. Do you feel like, or how many of your picks are locked in right now? It is March 5th. I don't know what the fuck I'm going to do. Can I just say also? Well, less than less than 15. Because along with the cat discourse, we had a, my friend, Daniel Dodario from Variety wrote a why are the Oscars so late in the year, peace and so we once again had the why have the Oscars not happened yet? Ten days. Why have the Oscars not happened yet? I don't know. You know my take on this. It's the week between. I completely agree.

2:20:42Conference championships and the Super Bowl. I agree. The week between. Nobody cares about the Pro Bowl. There's nothing going on in sports at that time otherwise. Isn't that usually when the Grammys are? Fuck them. I agree. Kick the Grammys out. This is way too late. I'm losing my mind. But so your picks are not locked in. Not even close. What about you? No, not at all. There's major categories where I don't know what I'm going to do. I've never felt this way before. Do you feel excited or stressed right now? Because we're getting to the point where it's entertaining, but also that the prospect of being wrong enters the chat. I don't care about being wrong as much this year. I think it's been really fun. I think the last few weeks have been fun. And I think that's rare for us. I do think it's been going on for too long and I wish this were a little bit more compressed. Like you said, but you know, going to DGA, seeing PGA play out, watching BAFTA be a fucking fiasco. And then the actor awards being really interesting. It's been a good season. It's been cool. Yeah. I want it to be over with, but it's been cool. Yeah.

2:21:47So I'm kind of excited. We were just talking about April. It's like we got some fun episodes planned for April. There's a couple of big movies coming out that I'm excited to talk to about. But I'm not done yet. So remember, live, no more Oscars on Monday on Netflix. 12 p.m. PT. 3 p.m. Eastern standard. That's right. You can email us at bigpickmailback at gmail.com. We will be here answering your questions. We'll talk about hoppers. You haven't seen hoppers yet? No, I have to figure out what I'm going to take knocks. Okay. I'm excited to see is he aware of his lots of billboards. And so he wants to know what hoppers is about. And I don't really know. So I know they it's animals and it's actually quite complicated. Oh great. I love it. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for production support. Don't forget to send questions to the mailbag. We'll see you on Monday.