The Art of Coaching with Ken Hinkley | Whateley (25.03.26)

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Our Wednesdays, the eminently sensible Phil Davis at 10.

And the art of coaching is where we start with Ken Hinkley.

Kenny, hello.

Morning, Jared. How are you today?

For as long as they both shall live.

Aston and Zach Merritt.

Or are they heading for a spectacular bust up?

Oh, it's a messy situation, isn't it?

It's already messy.

As you said, after round one, it's such an awkward situation for them to have to go through.

But I'd agree with what you just said.

It's now, now forever.

Or it's going to be a horrible next six months for Zach and for Aston with the way they're tracking.

How do you answer it after one game in which all the problems were again revealed?

Oh, it's, look, it's really, I mean, Aston and they're in the middle of what is clearly a list formation

where they're transferring, foraming everything they need to get better for the future.

The problem we have with Aston and it's been so long getting there, you know,

when we haven't been able to figure out what we need to be.

And that's why Zach's been the in and the outman.

You know, he's not quite sure of his in or he's not quite sure of his out because he kind of,

he certainly loves Aston and you can sense that.

But it's whether he's, you know, he's got the patience to stay and miss out an opportunity for finals.

There's so much going on at Aston and at the moment, we just got a bit patient with.

Yes, and the patience is one of the questions.

So if you look at their list profile, I know you've done this and categorized to all the players on a list.

When can they hope to be successful?

So this feels to me like ground zero.

Last year's a total write-off, I, that's destroyed by injury.

This feels like ground zero and that's a, we're a long way into being ground zero.

I think last year really hurt him based on the fact that they did get so many injuries

and it allowed them to hide behind the injury banner a little bit.

When I think in fact, their list still wasn't that great with the injuries.

So they needed to probably make the progress last year and make it pretty known, known to everyone.

So they're, they're, they look there.

Things happen quickly in AFL football.

You know, I remember when Carl Aemon left, left us to go to Hawthorne.

And at the time, we all looked at it and said, Carl, what are you, what's going on here?

This is, this is going to be a long time before Hawthorne rebound and get back up the ladder.

It was only three years later and they were back up in amongst it and playing electric football

and everyone wanted to watch him.

So it's probably a minimum of three years, Jared.

That's if, that's if everything on the drafting goes absolutely perfect from here

with what they've already taken.

You know, it's, it's caddy and caco going to be great players as sharp and, and Farrow and the bikes have brought in this year.

They've all got to be, they've all got to be hits.

They've all got to be hit and run almost in, in their drafting space.

And if they're not, it may be even longer, the game is really frustrating for bottom teams now.

It's really hard to rebuild from the bottom and get up in any period of time that's less than five, six, seven years.

So who's to say what merit should do?

But it is this the right play for Essendon to end it and to give in the long term offer

and hope that he commits forever or be more pragmatic at the end of the season and trade him.

Yeah, I did a lot of thinking around this over the last 24 hours because of the story that's come out.

And, and through Cal, it's obviously pretty close to the market.

I imagine.

So, you know, it's, it's a really, really difficult one.

And for Essendon, is it the right thing?

It takes away some distraction.

I mean, it will take away some distraction.

It'll allow them to clearly put their eye on the ball and say, look, look, Zach, you've got to help us now.

You've got to help us through this.

You've got to improve all these young players.

You've got to work really hard with them.

In fact, you've got to be a part of the recruiting, you know, in some ways.

You've got to come to the meetings.

You've got to be a part of this is why you're stayed.

This is what, you know, this is an explaining story a little bit to the young people coming into the club.

And potentially, Jared, any, you know, if I suppose free agents that they may be looking at

because I think there's some, there's some method in the way they could go about it with their free agency.

You know, they are, they got their eyeballs on the very best free agents.

It's probably not the right time because that will be a pretty high cost.

And they're not ready for that.

But are they going after for free or any type players who are really high quality good leadership players

and they can add something over the short term pain and the journey to help develop young players?

So Zach's got to be all in though.

Yeah.

It can't be half.

No, it's a hard spot to get to.

And this is the, so this is the all-in contract.

I mean, if, if nine weeks down the track, he hasn't signed that contract.

Where does that leave everybody?

That's that.

Yeah.

That is a disaster.

Like the fact that it's now public knowledge that there's a contract on the table.

And the question around it will be all won't he?

You know, I do or I don't.

As you said in the opening.

That is so fascinating for the rest of however long this standoff is going to be.

And Zach's probably proven over the journeys.

He's capable of waiting for any of these decisions.

And, you know, that will, that will be hard work for us and for a little period of time.

For his most fascinating relationship.

What did you think of the Scott Pendlebury Exxon or not exoneration?

The dispensation at the tribunal for distinguished service over so many years.

I had a strong view that he was actually probably shouldn't have even been in trouble for the incident.

I didn't think I watched it really closely.

I've seen it slow down.

I've seen it at high speed.

And I just did not think that was much else that Scott could have done for a start.

Now there was no doubt that his record had to get him off.

I'm a little disappointed that he still wears a fine in some ways.

Because he's found guilty of something I didn't think he had many options.

He'd slowed down.

He'd almost stopped by the time he got the done all the things you're asked to do.

No injury caused.

But if anyone was ever getting off.

Like I couldn't believe it went to the tribunal in some ways.

You know, the demon in me goes, you kidding me, AFL.

You're just making this for the show.

You know, you're making it look good.

So there was nothing to see there other than Scott Pendlebury had to play on this week.

Yes.

So he pays to play.

You only get it once.

Gary Abblett got it.

And it lasted about four weeks.

He got suspended almost straight away.

So he got the downgrade for the hit on shield for 328 games.

And within a couple of weeks he'd been suspended.

And I think it was against Gold Coast or anyway.

So it didn't last long.

Don't wish that on him.

Don't wish that on Scott.

He's eight games away.

He's eight games away from the record.

And we really want him to get to that record.

And is it like it's due for is it Hawthorne and Colin at the game?

Yeah.

So if he played every game from here, it's Hawthorne in a home game at the MCG.

If he missed one because there's a five day turnaround with Anzac Day.

If he missed one, it's the away game at the MCG against Jalong.

So either works.

He's not missing that.

He's not missing a game.

I don't think flies.

Putting on the bench for 30% of the game time.

You know, he can do that.

You can work your way through it with five on the bench.

It's such a good game to have him plays record breaking game at the G home game.

Too big to miss out on.

Yeah.

Ken Hinkley, the art of coaching on a Wednesday.

So I was thinking of Dean Cox and teams flying.

Done all the work in the off season.

Getting the quick affirmation and rewards of it.

And then you lose good and long term and heeding for the Hawthorne game.

Which is the first test away from home.

So try compensating your two best players, eh?

Yeah, that's okay.

I think it's like if you're going to get a test.

I mean, you don't want good now for four months, clearly.

But injuries will continually happen throughout the season.

Great players will unfortunately go down.

And you just have the art of coaching is to make sure your team is capable of covering for one player.

Or in this case, even two players.

They've got some reasonable players to bring back into the squad.

They're two and zip.

You know, they've started the season really well.

They go to an away game at the G, I think.

And they play the Hawks who at the start of the year, they would have...

This is a pretty difficult game anyhow.

I think there's a lot of favors in Dean's basket this week as far as taking on this challenge.

And showing his team that there's a way that we can win this game.

And then secondly, what's the bonus of winning this game?

Because the losing of this game is not a big deal.

As long as it's not a massive blowout, I mean, which I couldn't see that even happening.

But if they could win this game, she's sending in nearly favourites for the flag after three rounds.

If that was to happen, I reckon.

So soldier in soldier out versus what we've spoken about a bit already this year,

which is the gap makers, the players who define the difference between teams.

Where did you sit in that?

And what...

You know, we live the lie of soldier in soldier out to some degree, don't we?

Yeah, we do.

And, you know, you got off of their soldiers, they got one and two at the front line.

You know, they're one and two.

They're not five and six. They're one and two, probably.

They're pretty close to one and two.

If one is not one and two, well, those two are.

So they're big soldiers that you're losing.

But you've got, as I said, you've got a couple to bring in.

You've got an opportunity to bring in some people.

You've got a team that's in really good form, desperate to keep going, keep their place.

You know, there's some upside to Papli who's only just got going himself.

So, look, I'm pretty positive about the game for Sydney this week,

even with the challenges they've got.

Will I tip them against Hawthorne?

I'm not sure I'm going to go quite that far, Jared, but I'm actually...

I'm not saying they've got no chance in this game.

Did Hawthorne lay some of your fears or does the soft kill sort of compromise here, holding out?

Yeah, let me see it this week.

Going to Sydney swans, who will be desperate, ferocious attack.

And, you know, let's control a handball game of Sydney if they get it going

and make sure our phase one and two defense, which I spoke about after the GWS game,

was a little disconnected.

I thought it was absolutely back against Essendon, but I think they got a warm-up, Jared.

Yeah.

They went sparring.

They're into the heavyweight back this week.

They just went for a spa.

They had the head gear on the smaller gloves, the softer gloves,

and now they're going out with the big gloves and no head gear.

So, get them up and make sure they're in front.

Oh, get them up.

I like the imagery there.

The art of coaching with Ken Hinckley on a Wednesday.

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Now, back to weightly.

Who would be a coach, eh?

Who wants to do this?

Seriously, you've got to be a man.

Go.

Roll good.

Boss, he's opening to his press conference on Thursday.

I thought that might have made you smile, Ken Hinckley.

Yes, certainly did.

You know, it's one of those times where you realise where you're at

and where you're at really at in life.

And if it was the first time that I actually realised

I'm not missing this.

You know, and it's pretty good what I'm actually now

allowed to do.

I get to watch and love footy stool without that horrible feeling of

like Vossy went through that horrible feeling of

like imagine the emotions he went through at the MCG during that game.

And he was absolutely being honest, I reckon,

that when he opened that line, he's gone, you know what?

Why do you do this?

You know, and we can all answer why, because I can answer why,

because you're passionate and you desire and you want to compete

and all those things as part.

And that's why you go there.

You go to that horrible place.

But it was a time when I sat back and said,

yeah, I'm glad I'm having a rest.

So that hour that he goes through in a high stakes game

and you've lost all control of it, you're sort of at the

the whim of the fates for a while.

So I imagine you had the odd day like that.

How does it, like, what does it do to you?

Are you able to explain what it does to you?

Emotionally, it takes you to horrible places.

You know, it does.

It sends you to really dark spots at different times when you sit

back and think about what you've got to,

because you do what Michael had to do.

You actually start to think about that press conference.

That's what I, you know, I can remember games.

I'm going, I've got to walk in and explain this somehow

and be responsible for it, which is, which is okay,

because you're okay with that, but you do spend your time

for too long, probably.

He's thinking about, how am I going to answer these questions?

Because you know the cell you have to keep up for your club.

You know the, you know, especially in what was it around one?

You've got to have the enthusiasm for your club still.

And it's a dark spot sometimes when you get there.

You know, you've got a quarter to go.

Michael's game was different, because he would have been

really engrossed into the game and having to win the game,

trying to win the game.

But these games where you're, you're playing a game size,

you just should beat.

And the game's gone at three quarter time.

That's not a great quarter to live through as a coach.

There's nothing you can pull. There's no levers you're trying to,

you know, you're just trying to avoid gametes, probably,

as much as you can.

Did I hear you accept a five-year deal to go and coach Richmond

for free?

And what, what makes Richmond so attractive to your eye?

I think they've done it.

If you want to, if you want a model to rebuild and how to do it,

you've got to know.

And it's one of the things I've seen about before we started

this morning was to, how do you progress to rebuild

without everyone, you know, really saying to the team,

we're going to go rebuild.

Richmond done that, because they'd won flags.

You know, they'd won three flags in their most recent history.

So they just went, when these players come up that other clubs

had interest, you might have been Rihale and Baker and Shy Bolton.

They just cashed in at the right time, but they also knew

when the good draft was coming.

Everyone knew that was a great draft.

And, you know, I was really passionate about the draft.

And I was watched them all pretty closely.

So I, the talent was there.

You just had to be brave enough to go there.

Now, if you're not that club and you're not thinking,

you haven't won three flags in a row, it's a really hard sell,

but of course Richmond had won three flags.

They kept the amount of senior experience that they needed

to keep it okay and to help coach young players,

because that's really important.

But their rebuild is fast tracking.

I can go into here and they are going to be powerful pretty quick again

with the talent that I've seen again last Thursday.

I thought, wow, this is, this is pretty promising this group already.

And, but the courage to make it happen,

but more importantly to have all the information about what,

you know, what's on the landscape.

This is a great draft.

We've got to be big and we've got to be into it.

They got, they get six picks inside 21.

I think of something like that in that draft.

Amazing, amazing draft.

You know, I go back to Butter's Rosie, Dursma Draft.

And we had three picks, because we knew it was a great draft.

You know, it's worth that outstanding draft in lots of ways.

You know, when you think about the Kings and Walsh,

you know, all those players that come to the Rankin,

I think was in that draft.

Locotious maybe.

So you've got to know the draft and you've got to hit it at the right time.

That's one of the essence challenges.

Where's the draft at now?

Yeah.

You know, Tasmania is coming in and a couple of years

they get an access to 17-year-olds coming up straight away.

It's really frustrating if you're trying to rebuild an hurry,

but Richmond, tick, tick and carriage tick.

Nice.

Melbourne were exciting first up and they'd preached the idea of fun

and then they lived the idea of fun.

So first of all, how good was it to see like Stephen King's emotions?

You only get that once.

So tell me what that's like.

When you're knowing and when you're first game.

Yeah, it was, it's a pretty exciting time too,

because you know, you've spent all this time wanting to be the senior coach

and you get that opportunity.

And mine was a long, long time ago, 2013.

It was a Gaines Melbourne game, C.G.

My first game.

I think we had David King in the box with me on me first game.

We had to do everything.

We were selling the foodie club.

We had to promote anything we possibly could about what we were doing.

And we won our game really comfortably and it was a really enjoyable day.

And in some ways it was that moment, probably the only moment.

In my whole 297 games where I said, how easy is this guy?

Well, we won five in a row at the start.

So that was pretty good.

But when it started to turn the wrong way,

the King he well done, enjoyed it.

He had a great day.

His team played in the spirit that he wanted them to see,

because I think it's 45,000 people at the game.

And if you're a Melbourne fan, you needed to see that first up in some silly way

because of the promise of the preseason.

It was a good on him and great performance by his team.

Can you sneak up on the competition?

So I was thinking in that 2013 season, you're exciting.

You get everyone a little bit off balance.

You're trading on the idea, hey, we're further than everybody else.

And never give up.

That sort of took hold.

Can you submarine the competition for a little while?

Yeah, you came for a little while.

I think, you know, particularly when you're at a club,

and if I compare Port Adelaide and Melbourne,

the off season for Port Adelaide,

if I took over, was diabolical.

You know, they sacked a coach,

unfortunately, that lost a player in an overseas event.

You know, there was no belief.

There was, you know, tarps on seats.

Melbourne had lost players.

You know, they lost their two best players, probably, May.

And McVeigh had gone to FreeA.

They had no one in the world was singing Melbourne any good.

I think most people had him in bottom three,

probably if they're being honest.

And you get a chance to sneak up.

If you've got Cosy Pickett and Max Gauhan

who are ready to lead and take hold,

you've got some great youngsters.

Another to him who I think drafted really well, Jared.

They've drafted really well, Melbourne.

And, you know, the trail picket comes in

and they've got all this excitement.

And then they're wisely going to get my check.

You know, and you think, well,

at some point people are going,

well, was he going to play when they are better?

But it's not about that sometimes.

It's about developing.

And when you're developing well,

you've got experience around who bring the right qualities.

He does that too.

So you can definitely sneak up on the comp.

It'll be interesting to see how they go.

Yeah. So Stephen King was unapologetic.

He basically told everybody how they're going to play.

And we saw that.

It was sort of odd to see Ross Liner

agree to a shootout in that game

and do nothing to change the flow of it.

And so it's everybody's seen it.

So we'd heard it.

Now we've seen it.

Does it hold up once you're a fully declared commodity?

We're about to find out because they go to Freo.

They go to Freo who are a really good team

and be smarting from their performance at Jalong.

So Melbourne is going to get a chance to go over there

on a good track.

Hopefully it's a dry day and where there's fine.

And they're able to put on a bit of a show

and create, do you imagine if they come back out of that one?

If they come out of that game,

even getting close in some way.

But if they win that game,

then they're not sneaking anymore.

We're going to start to go up,

sing on a sec.

Let's rig a Justin.

The opposition coach for every club

or whoever's playing him in round three,

they will have their eyes firmly on that game.

What are you thinking with Ross Liner after a couple?

I think there's small losses.

They haven't been terrible.

As you said, they got into a shootout

unlike a Ross team.

GWS this week's a new scene game for them

because if they don't get that right,

they're going to Brisbane and they could be going.

They could be coming together around zero and four

playing for it.

That's not the start you want.

As we know, zero and four, zero and five,

season done.

That's what happens.

You can chase it,

but you never really catch up or very rarely do you catch up.

They've got a big game this week.

I expect some sort of a response this week

from the Saints and it wouldn't surprise me

if they got over the top of GWS.

The out of coaching with Kim Hinckley.

I've got one more for you.

Can you just bear with me half a tip?

The new McCaffay drinks range.

Let's check in with Nathan the newsroom.

Nathan, thank you.

The out of coaching with Ken Hinckley.

Can you all want to ask you about in-game coaching?

Nathan Buckley with an insight into Chris Scott,

who's only just started coaching with.

What was done on the way to quarter time and at

quarter time when free-metal had made a big break on the cats?

Well, Scottie was really keen to change up the structure

and how he wanted to set the ground up.

So we had a chat about the last couple of minutes of the first quarter

but then came together in that quarter time

before he went to the players.

I was front of the centre for the conversation with the players.

And if that's Scottie and his peak,

I put him in about four or five out of ten with the peak

of what I've seen other coaches go at.

So I think that speaks to the respect that what you just discussed

about a psychologically safe, assuming good intent with the players

and giving them the licence to be the masters of their domain

and also treating them like adults in terms of the challenge

that he put to them at that break.

And they clearly responded.

So I've only been there for five minutes.

So to see that in action without really needing to get to a motive

was a real strong positive.

The way he converses with the coaching group in the environment

to the players in meetings, in conversations I'm sure,

in one on one, is quite similar.

And he largely puts questions to people.

Have we thought of this?

Do we have we considered this?

Do you, if we're going to err on it?

So I'd suggest we err on this side.

Like that's really suggestive communication

rather than really directive communication.

And that's, I'm still sitting in this space working out

how this all comes together.

Obviously relies a lot on the players,

the leadership within the playing group to pick it up

and to do their jobs well

and to interpret what's being asked of them.

Nathan Buckley on the couch on Monday night.

So how much can you do in-game?

Can in a very short period of time

when all the planning hasn't worked?

You can do it clearly early in the game

and you've got three quarters to chase the game.

And as it turns out, they won the game.

Suggestive, I think I heard Nathan say,

when the senior coach is being like that,

he's not being suggestive.

He's being demanding.

He's suggesting what he wants.

He's not at all suggesting.

He's telling you this is why it's going to go.

And I watched the conversations it seemed to go.

And that was just Chris saying,

we're doing this.

We're making some changes to our team defense

and we've got to get it right.

And Buck's like, oh, I've been around a long time.

When he says 4 out of 5, the motive.

Buck said it's what he's seen.

But he's seeing Mick down off his tree at different times.

So it might have been a five.

Like if I compare what Malcolm Blight was like when I was a player

and then all of a sudden,

what Bongo was like when he was a coach at Jolong

and the levels of heat that you put into a conversation

have changed drastically.

A four or five out of 10 compared to Malcolm Blight

and today's game would be a nine out of 10.

Yes.

It would be a nine out of 10.

And it sounded like when I heard some of the players talk

there was words used that were pretty suggestive

about what the performance would look like.

So I think that those are the moments

where you let the senior coach have his go.

And that's where the senior coach needs his go.

And how intellectually invigorating

is it to try to solve the problems of a game

in the three minutes and then the seven minutes

that you've got at quarter time?

Like how does that get the juices flowing?

Yeah, absolutely does.

And that's when you make your mark on the team

and your team begin to trust real.

I mean Chris got such trust for these teams.

So it doesn't matter.

But as a young coach, once you do that once or twice

and the changes you make create a winning atmosphere

for the group and they believe in you,

that is a real goal for a coach.

And it's still a joy of coaching to go down there

and be able to adjust your team on the run

when the heat's on and you've got to calm them down.

You've got to get them thinking clearly.

You've got to get them behaving properly.

And then they've got to see the reward for it.

That's such a moment for a coach.

It's the moment you do live for.

And the flip side of that is for Justin Longmuir

and his team had a level of dominance in the game

and then that's progressively taken away

to the point where they were dominated by the end of it.

And I heard you on Monday say that

stop losing those games, free mantle.

Like how much of a kick in the teeth is that?

Yeah, it's big.

I think that's a big one.

Even though it is round one.

I think they, you know, they went there.

I think a lot of people tip to me included

that they, you know, because of what we've seen

from Jalong in a quarter time,

we're all thinking we're super smart.

We're really clever.

We've been able to fix, pick this with Jalong.

The demise of Jalong is, once again, not happening.

It's just tricking us.

But free are really frustrating

and really disappointing for Jal

because they couldn't have wished for a better start.

And then you lose your way.

When that happens, you can't get it back.

You can't stop it.

But, you know, the overflow gets you.

And you're almost drowning in your own troubles.

And that's what happened to free out day.

And I meant on Monday.

Stop losing those games, free out.

Because you've got a list that's very capable

and should be right at the top of the ladder.

You let one slip.

Now you've got to pick it up somewhere along the way.

Justin would be very, very disappointed.

All right.

You're on duty on Friday night.

So you'll see Adelaide and the Bulldogs.

That's all that's tantalizing.

That's a good game, Jared.

That's a real good game.

That's my, that's my moment where I see the Bulldogs defensive structure.

Is it going to stand up?

Because we're playing last year's best attacking team

who have got some confidence

who are bringing Isaac ranking in, playing at home.

Bulldogs, you went to, you went,

you went to the Gabber and you got it done.

But the team you played kicked 100.

You know, see, you conceded score.

If you're going to have a conceding score mentality against the Crow,

they might kick 120.

You might not be able to get out of it.

So I look forward to that game.

It'll be a really interesting game

because two teams who we both like will be challenging each other.

So you've got that one question to answer on the Bulldogs that you're,

you're seen in their style at the moment.

Yeah, I have, we do.

I still have that question.

I want to say it against, you know,

high quality opponent away from home,

which they did against the Brisbane Lions,

but they also allowed 100 points.

I think that's risky.

The numbers will tell you that they're, you know,

their efficiency going forward is off the charts, the dogs.

I mean, clearly off the charts.

Is that sustainable?

And will that be sustainable against the team that defensively can hold up?

It'll be, it'll be a really big moment for both teams.

For Nixie and for Beverly,

it'll be good moments to get some feedback.

All right.

Be great to hear you on AFL Nation forward.

Kenny, thank you.

Good on you, Jared.

Have a good day.

Ken Hinkley, the art of coaching to get us going every Wednesday.

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