The Assassination of Spurius Maelius

Famine Strikes

After a peaceful year in 441 BCE, the Romans are in for nasty shock over the course of 440 and 439 BCE. It all begins with a crippling famine, and there seems to have been signs of problems ahead before the food shortage really set in. In Pliny the Elder, there is a reference to an aedile of the plebs (Marcus Marcius) selling grain to the poor at a very low price.

Episode 127 – The Assassination of Spurius Maelius

There are some startling differences in our source material this episode. What we can agree on is that the crisis was so severe, Lucius Minucius was appointed as Prefect of the Grain, aka The Nacho King of Rome. His job was to track down some corn and get it the Romans ASAP.

Image of a random assortment of grains courtesy of www.themindfulword.org

Emergency Relief

Unfortunately, Minucius seems to have been incompetent and the famine dragged on. To try and help out his fellow Romans, a wealthy equestrian named Spurius Maelius made use of his extensive connections to secure the needed grain. He succeeds where Minucius had failed, and even worse, he distributes the corn for FREE to the populace. Nothing makes you so popular as distributing free food, especially if it’s amid a famine.

There's Only So Much Room at the Top

Maelius’ actions highlight the enormous power that the aristocrats of Rome still wielded thanks to their wealth and the practice of patronage. However, Maelius does not seem to have been one of the ‘club’. He does not seem to have been one of the patricians. Exactly what impact this had is difficult to determine.

• Did his popularity go to his head and lead to schemes of restoring the monarchy?
• Was Cincinnatus dusted off and brought out of retirement to deal with this threat?
• Did the people seize control and replace Minucius with Maelius?
• Was there a senatorial conspiracy to kill those who spoke out against the government… including Maelius?
• Are we dealing with a state-sanctioned assassination? Or is this an elaborate cover-up?  (Hello, JFK conspirators? We've got another one to add to the list….)

We will leave that to you to decide. All we can say for certain is that this episode is full of intrigue. Never has Ancient Rome seemed more like a gangster film. Get ready for the assassination of Spurius Maelius!

Things to Look Out For

• The young patricians
• Roman units of measurement
• The return of the butcher’s stand in the Forum  
• Cincinnatus possibly pulling a Lethal Weapon
• When Dr Rad accidentally says that Minucius was rescued by Coriolanus instead of Cincinnatus back in 458 BCE
• A Master of the Horse with a name that we just can’t leave alone!

Our Players 440 BCE

Consuls

• Proculus Geganius – f. – n. Macerinus (Pat.)
• T. Menenius Agripp. F. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.) – Cos. 452

OR

• L. Menenius T. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.)

Aedile of the Plebs

• M. Marcius

Praefectus Annonae

• L. Minucius (Esquilinus Augurinus) (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 458

Wealthy Equestrian – Giddyup!

• Spurius Maelius

Our Players 439 BCE

Consuls

• Agrippa Menenius T. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.)
• T. Quinctius L.f. L.n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) – Cos. 471, 468, 465, 446, 443.

Dictator

• L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 460

Master of the Horse

• C. Servilius – f. – n. Ahala (Pat.)

Praefectus Annonae

• L. Minucius (Esquilinus Augurinus) (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 458

Wealthy Equestrian

• Spurius Maelius

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 12.36; Cicero, Cato Maior De Senectute, 16.56; Cicero, Mil. 3.8; Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 12.1-4; Valerius Maximus, 5.3.2g.
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.12-15.
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Wilson, M. 2021. Dictator: The Evolution of the Roman Dictatorship (University of Michigan Press).

Sound Credits

Thanks to BBC Sounds, Orange Free Sounds and Fesliyan Studios for sound effects, and the very talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

Automated Transcript

Provided by Otter AI

P H

0:16

Welcome to the Partial Historians, we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad

1:00

Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historias. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad, and I am Dr. G. And we are super excited to be here today because we're about to talk about 440 BCE. The speed of our

Dr G

1:20

chain, getting getting from the foundations, and we're about what 300 Something use it. We're doing pretty good. I think so I mean, lightning was like 300 years have passed. It does not look incredible. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr Rad

1:34

So in the course of the history of Rome, Dr. G, let's do a brief recap of where we were up to last episode. Oh, yes. Yeah. 441 was actually quite a.

Dr G

1:46

Yeah, look, I don't remember much about it. There was all day I was involved. And we had just cleaned up the whole mess. And it was a bit of a mess there. Yeah. And then I feel like I ran out of sources. No, that's not to say he really wasn't

Dr Rad

2:01

much to say about 441. It was

Dr G

2:04

fairly, it was a pretty minimal. Yeah,

Dr Rad

2:07

yeah. Exactly. After the drama that happened with the border dispute, no doubt. And that whole weird civil war that apparently broke out there over a hot Peruvian girl. So yes, it was good to have some peace and quiet. You know, your life can't be keeping up with the Kardashians. 24/7

DG Dr G

2:25

It can't sometimes you got to go home. Yeah. So that's really all

DR Dr Rad

2:29

I have to say about 441. So I think it's time to pause as we transition into 440 BC.

DG Dr G

2:44

Morning, Yep, see

DR Dr Rad

2:45

ya. Oh, boy.

DG Dr G

2:47

Do I have some news for you? We've got consoles this year?

DR Dr Rad

2:50

Yes. Because you might recall that it has been mooted that maybe we don't have consoles. And that maybe we have military Tribune's with consular authority. Because then poor beings can technically hold the office without dirtying up too much. Technically. Yeah, we also, we also haven't seen much action from that. From that side of things. It's mostly been consoles.

DG Dr G

3:15

That just that we're getting that's coming through from the source material is this is a time of uncertainty. There's a volatility in the politics. Yeah. So what how that's exactly playing out. We're not really sure. And for me, in particular, reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus is a bit of an issue because this is precisely the point where he starts to go missing. And I've only got some fragments to deal with. makes me very sad. But we do have two consoles. The first of which I'll test these names against you. We've got propolis giganteum. Sort of we don't know who grandson of we don't know who mas arenas check a patrician and Titus mineus Agrippa Oh, no. TinyMCE mineus Son of a grip ah. Grandson of a grip up Alanna Tess. Or might be Lucia Smith. Aeneas,

DR Dr Rad

4:06

we're not sure about is that leave you guys with which means it must be the correct. Yeah, yes. Apart from that, Ted, I

DG Dr G

4:14

agree with you. And I also have a record of somebody called the Adel of the plebs. So this role doesn't come up very often, or at least it's not spoken about very often in this early period.

DR Dr Rad

4:25

Well, that's because we're not entirely sure it does exist at this point.

DG Dr G

4:30

But Be on the lookout for somebody called many years Martius

DR Dr Rad

4:34

Yes, I also have that name. And let me tell you that you'd have to do a 441 was almost boringly peaceful. 440 is going to turn all that around drama

DG Dr G

4:45

bring on the drama I will bring on we also have a price vectors unknown a.

DR Dr Rad

4:51

Oh, okay. Apparently.

DG Dr G

4:54

I don't know. This is what Bratton tells me. And this might go on for a couple of years. Hold that thought. Lucia. Manoukian Esquel minus

DR Dr Rad

5:04

or greenness. Now that's an AMA. Do you recall?

DG Dr G

5:06

He used to be the console? Suffolk or 458?

DR Dr Rad

5:11

Which is where I remember? Yeah, yes. Yeah. That

DG Dr G

5:13

year stands out. Yeah, like a shining diamond.

DR Dr Rad

5:18

Absolutely. All right. So I can tell you right now that you have to be prepared for a year of many people dying. Oh, not so danger, sedition, famine, and the threat of a king. Oh, yeah.

DG Dr G

5:38

I think you and I are talking about different years

DR Dr Rad

5:40

I? Yeah, basically, the only bad thing that didn't happen in this year, according to levy was a foreign war.

DG Dr G

5:49

Wow. Okay. So as far as I can tell from the sort of the fragmentary sources that I've read, yeah, the events are 440. And the events of 439 are probably going to mesh together in a perhaps a, a, a way that we can't disentangle

DR Dr Rad

6:05

makes your tongue annalistic sauce here.

DG Dr G

6:10

And I is missing and everything that I know about the things you're seeing right now come in the next year. Now,

DR Dr Rad

6:15

I think we've spoken before about the fact that it seems as though our sources often like to characterise yours in certain ways, which means that sometimes they might be, you know, tidying things up a bit, because they're like, wouldn't be just neater, if everything happened in 440, rather than, you know, trickling into January and February of the next year.

DG Dr G

6:36

And we've also got that issue with like, how do we date things precisely anyway, like, we know that the Fasty records that these analysts historians are going to much later, are fragmentary themselves? At least they are for us. Yeah. I think that they might have been for them as well, because we do get these discrepancies that have emerged along the way.

DR Dr Rad

6:54

Yeah. So are you prepared to delve into this year with me?

DG Dr G

6:57

I'm ready. I'm really keen to hear what you've got to tell me. Okay.

DR Dr Rad

7:00

So if a foreign war had been added to the disasters that happened in this year LIVVIE thinks that it would have been a complete disaster for the Romans, even if the gods had been on their sides. That's telling you something, even if the gods are rooting for you and on your side, and yet somehow you still fail. Must be pretty bad.

DG Dr G

7:23

But that's but he says, That's not what happened.

DR Dr Rad

7:25

No, it isn't. I'm just trying to paint a picture of how terrible it is. Now, it all begins with a hearable family, and can't really be 100% Sure, why the feminine came about in the first place? There are a couple of theories there. First of all, weather climate, you know, those things need to be taken care of people otherwise, food shortages do arise. You could also

DG Dr G

7:52

have a problematic thing that happens with the crop, some sort of disease moves through it. These things are easier to manage in the modern world with our modern technology. Yeah, not easy to manage in the ancient world. If a devastating sort of plague rips through the crop, right before harvest, you got bad times ahead.

DR Dr Rad

8:09

You do but I wish you wouldn't embellish living this way.

DG Dr G

8:14

Just speaking about reasonable hypotheses about the

DR Dr Rad

8:16

season it's the season

DG Dr G

8:20

it's the gods I tell you

DR Dr Rad

8:22

Yeah, any here so could just be a weather thing that just didn't help the crops grow and you know, abundance was needed. However, it could also be that people were neglecting their farming duties.

DG Dr G

8:36

Oh, yeah. Okay, this is a patrician read put it back onto the plebeians. Yeah, not doing their job properly

DR Dr Rad

8:43

been hanging out and assemblies yet and political city life far too attractive. Not enough time on founder today.

DG Dr G

8:51

I thought I'd brush off my socks and become a military tribute with clothes jeweller power,

DR Dr Rad

8:57

dear appreciate. I have been now for several weeks in the capital of our great nation. And I cannot put into words how truly magnificent really

DG Dr G

9:09

is I've decided to go into politics.

DR Dr Rad

9:13

Yes, sir. So of course the patricians are indeed upset with this situation because it's plebeian laziness. That has brought this all around. However, the plans aren't just going to take this kind of criticism lying down. The tribune of the plebs comes in and accuses the consoles of dishonesty and carelessness. Yeah, so counter accusation. Once again, you guys have been sleeping on the top job. Either way, I think it's safe to say that both groups are pointing the finger at the other as to why this whole situation nobody

DG Dr G

9:49

is harvesting the grain. Once again, crops are being ignored while people argue.

DR Dr Rad

9:56

But the tribune of the plebs did eventually manage to get one A Lucia Manoukian is appointed as prefect of the corn supply and the Senate and against this because, hey, everybody's going to eat.

DG Dr G

10:12

I think it's a sign of the times that something has gone terribly wrong that they need a prefect, just to look after the grain supply. There's issues here and they're like, We need a tailored solution. And we need somebody in charge of coming up with that solution.

DR Dr Rad

10:25

Yeah, so I hereby de Lucia smooth kiss the nacho King. Now, it turns out, he actually wasn't fantastic at his job.

DG Dr G

10:37

I was gonna say he does practically nothing.

DR Dr Rad

10:39

Well, okay, in terms of getting sued. Sure. But he does contribute something else, which is more important. Dr. Jain? He safeguards liberty. Yeah, I'm gonna get to that in a sec. Now, just a little note here, way back in the early republic, and around sort of 494 89 This guy's relatives were also consult when there was a famine.

DG Dr G

11:06

Oh, that's an unfortunate family tradition.

DR Dr Rad

11:10

Yeah. So I'm just going to throw it out there that there is actually a bit of a family connection here. Wow. Yeah.

DG Dr G

11:16

That was great. Well, no, I think they actually solved the family. Yeah, I

DR Dr Rad

11:20

think they actually did a reasonable job.

DG Dr G

11:22

And this might explain why they've chosen Manoukian, then, potentially, and

DR Dr Rad

11:25

he's also had, you know, he's relatives have been fairly well known. You know, they've established themselves I mean, not always in great ways. One of them had to be bailed out by Coriolanus. But oops, yeah. Anyway, doesn't matter. Seven of us, of course, does the logical thing, and that he starts sending out bad signals, you know, help them come to our aid shapes,

DG Dr G

11:45

like sheaves of wheat. That's right. Series ate us.

DR Dr Rad

11:50

across land, and across the seas. He asks for aid. He managed to get a little bit of corn from a Tria, but a little bit isn't going to solve a crisis on this scale.

DG Dr G

12:02

Aster is when we talk about corn. We're not talking about maize at this point in time. No, we're talking about all sorts of ancient grains, and they're all sort of classified under this idea of corn in the Roman mind. Yeah,

DR Dr Rad

12:13

no joking. It's very misleading. I apologise, but I just like it. Anyway, so I'm gonna do case decides, well, this isn't working. So I'm going to take a number of other steps. First of all, I'm going to force all Romans to declare what Roman Roman meant to declare how much core and that they had.

DG Dr G

12:32

Tell me how much grain you got in there, buddy. What are you shaking, shaking?

DR Dr Rad

12:38

It sounds like there's more grain within that storage over there. Oh, really? Your spell check is? I think so.

DG Dr G

12:43

Don't look at the barrel.

DR Dr Rad

12:46

And they had to sell whatever they had in storage. That was over a month supply. So they were able to keep a month of what they had, but everything else

DG Dr G

12:54

had sold. Okay, so we're into the rationing phase. Yeah, I mean, what I call supply.

DR Dr Rad

13:00

I don't know if I mentioned that. It's getting worse. Now, this part I don't like so much, but probably predictable. He also ordered that a portion of corn be taken from slave so part of their daily ration is taken away, right. Yeah, he also started charging dealers, this grain dealers, yes, areas.

DG Dr G

13:24

Buddy, what do you what do you want? What do you want? I got some I got some. Well,

DR Dr Rad

13:27

the thing is it. It seems that people might obviously have been trying to benefit from this whole situation. Can you imagine? Can you imagine

DG Dr G

13:38

Romans? Yeah, trying to outdo other Romans, not even to say Romans, I

DR Dr Rad

13:41

mean, who knows who these dealers are? But yeah, it seems like people were potentially I suppose, presbytery might be the right word for it sounds like people are really angry and about this whole situation. So that's a good thing. However, none of these things really help with the incredible crisis. That is the famine, like obviously, you know, small dent, but it's not really doing what needs to be done here. So it makes some claims so scared about what lies ahead in the future that apparently some literally throwing themselves into the timeout and committing suicide. Wow. Yeah. It's a bad family. Yeah.

DG Dr G

14:21

It's just like, because my source material is so different from yours at this point that I'm like, This is not even something I've encountered yet. I'm hearing this for the first time where that is tragic.

DR Dr Rad

14:30

There you go. So then steps into the void and equestrian that now, I should say right now that yeah, this horse. This is early room. So this isn't the kind of later version room equestrian where you qualify with like a certain amount of money as being part of the equestrian class. This is when you actually do probably have a horse. Yeah, you're able

DG Dr G

14:56

to equip as a cavalryman yes in times of war. Yeah, exactly. You're quite substantially wealthy.

DR Dr Rad

15:02

Sure. But yeah, it's not like it's not like the Augustan version of an equestrian. Yeah, except just mentioning that, and this guy's name is spurious. Malleus. Now he is a wealthy man, as highlighted, okay,

DG Dr G

15:14

I'm gonna have to jump into it, because you're definitely straying into what is 439 for me.

DR Dr Rad

15:23

But hear me out, okay, because Melee has decided that he's going to use his money to do something useful. However, Lily highlights here, that they set a terrible precedent. And that this guy had awful motives for doing Googling, again, Shocking, I know that a reverend would be out for himself. So Malea decides to use his personal fortune to purchase corn from the experience. And he's able to do this because he has apparently quite an extensive network of friends and clients. So whilst this is obviously different to what we saw, with Fabians, this is another one of those incidents that really highlights for us how much there is this network of patronage that works throughout this society? And it means that you do actually have private families that have enough wealth sometimes to step in, and do things for the state on this scale?

DG Dr G

16:25

Yeah. And I think this tells you, I mean, this is the scenes of Aristotle, like aristocracy in its most essential form. Yeah. And it's like, and you can see it in this early period of Rome. And we know that these people are all connected. And so the Romans do try to define themselves as different and separate, and we're like, we're special people. But they're definitely taking in from the Latins. They're definitely taking in from the Etruscans. All of those surrounding peoples or peoples that they're connected with. They're either related to them, or they're good for business ties. And this kind of thing. Yeah. really hits home when it's a famine. Yeah, absolutely. And this one guy is like, well, I've got enough money to do what the state cannot do. Yeah. Which is to buy up a grain supply

DR Dr Rad

17:08

and the connections and the connections. Of course, this may have you know, hi made the problem worse, because he's buying up the supply. However, what he does, then is that he hands it out for free. Now, I am getting close to 439. So we'll hold it right there, missy. This, of course, makes him insanely popular with

DG Dr G

17:32

the I can only imagine because they're starving. Yeah. So they're literally following

DR Dr Rad

17:37

him around like puppies and being like, hey, my alias taught me another bit of that con, and I'll show you good time. I'd love to buy your bread. Bake it in my oven. Ooh, this is getting gross. So this makes him feel very important. And he starts to Dream a Little Dream. Dr. G. Oh, yeah. Now as someone who's an equestrian, as in wealthy enough to have a horse at all,

DG Dr G

18:07

as well as to buy the grain. Yeah,

DR Dr Rad

18:08

that's one of the good, but anything for the consulship.

DG Dr G

18:12

Yes. And equestrian is not technically, of the Patricia class, as far as anybody. So this might be a retro ejection as well. If this is the other thing. We're not really sure what makes a new question in the question in this early period. And it seems like anybody's best guess would be that there is a sort of blurring between equestrians and patricians because patricians are this sort of elite class anyway. And it would make sense that they were also the wealthy enough to buy and look after their own horses. Yeah. So it makes sense that there's some sort of connection there. And yet, by the time we get to our riders like Louis and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, in the first century BCE, there's a real distinction. And the questions are not part of that upper echelon of the elite.

DR Dr Rad

18:57

Yeah, so this is this might be right your direction. Yeah, it could be. But it could also be that he actually isn't a patrician me a little upstart. Crash, but of course, why stop at console? Why not aim to be king of Arroyo? Grande can buy you anything.

DG Dr G

19:21

Sir. He starts to man. He doesn't know his history.

DR Dr Rad

19:24

He's that's the plan. He sounds to plan. He thinks you know what? I could do this. I could pull this off. It is turned off to GE for an evil blend. However, when the elections for the consulship for the next year rolled around, his plan isn't quite ready yet. Yeah, so he's not ready to launch into action right at that opportune moment. And the people that he is kind of singled out as being necessary to his plan or, you know, potentially useful and not necessarily interested in him?

DG Dr G

20:04

Oh, wow, who didn't? Who knew?

DR Dr Rad

20:06

And that is the end of 440. To me, it's a cliffhanger.

DG Dr G

20:10

Wow. Okay. Oh, because like 440 is a real dud for my source material. First of all dinosaurs are Harlequin. So this is just missing nothing. And we have, I had to end up going to Pliny's natural history book 18 sections three to four, right? To have a look into what's going on with this man. Yes, Mark. Yes, who hasn't featured at all in your story, really. So because he comes up in this year for me, but then drops off the radar for next year, gone by 439. But apparently, he's this eight out of the plebs. And he's most famous for what is known as the one that modius grain distribution. So we don't have a sense, or at least not in the source material, I was able to insult we don't have a sense that there is a famine yet. But there's definitely some sort of issue with the grain supply because he's selling grain at bargain basement prices as the a doll. And this one modius is considered to be like the cheapest price you could possibly sell it for really any cheaper. And it looks like you might as well just be giving it away for free.

DG Dr G

21:22

But so we've got this little section in plenty, where he's talking about the size of land. So I think this is just a nice sort of discusses anyway, so I'm going to do it show you talks about what is known as u Gurram. So you're like, what's a U Gurram. It's a size is the size of a piece of land, you're like, Well, how would we measure? A you girl? Yeah, great question. First of all, you have to yoke your oxen, step one, yes. Then you have to in one day, see as much as you can plough. So with that oxen, you can usually go up to a certain point until the middle of the day. Yeah. And then you turn them around. And next to it, you do another set down for the rest of the day. Gotcha. Yeah. And that double stretch, you're doing oxen, laps, oxen, laps, essentially, that whatever you can do in one day with the oxygen and usually you can't make the oxygen speed up. So it's considered to be relatively useful is the you gurgle that you'll get granted as your piece of land for them growing your brain, right? So you can do that. And everybody in the population is welcome. Where possible, that's kind of like the minimum you give people to be able to self sustain. Right? Okay, so everyone's on the lookout for the you Gergo for your burger.

DR Dr Rad

22:31

I really don't like a word.

DG Dr G

22:34

But this has, you know, this connection to agriculture and all of these sorts of other things and thinking about them clearly gets into like the names that come out of agriculture that are connected to names of families. So kicker Row being the famous the chickpea, here, but there there are others as well, the Junie i, so the journey I receive also the name of boo, bilious ah which comes from breeding oxen and being skilled at it, apparently, okay, yeah. So there's all these kind of like little details that plenty goes into plenty is a great source for like, these kinds of things. We like what his daily life really like, let's find out. And then he talks about this cheap grain situation where it's really unusual. And many as Marcus gets a mention there, okay. And then my only other source for 40 is our old friend Diodorus, Siculus.

DR Dr Rad

23:27

Mr. Reliable.

DG Dr G

23:29

He's having a great time. He gets the names of the consoles, right in this instance. So this is book 12, section 36. Gets the names of the consoles. Right. And then you also talks about that during this year, Spartacus, the king of the Bosphorus, dine after a rain of seven years. I like the name. I thought you might. So I did a little bit more thinking about that. I was like, Oh, we've got a really early Spartacus figure. Well, it is

DR Dr Rad

23:56

it is actually a regal name in some cultures. Yeah.

DG Dr G

23:58

And he this Spartacus is thought to be a tyrant actually, who overthrows the ruling dynastic line he was about and about before the other one came along the Bosphorus, but he starts what is known as the Sparta Qin Dynasty, which lasts for quite a few generations.

DR Dr Rad

24:16

Yes, yeah. There have definitely been people who have theorised that Spartacus, the famous gladiator may have had some connection to royalty, you know, some sort of royal line or it could just be that the name was famous. He wasn't actually from Thrace at all. And they just throw it at him because they're trying to craft him into a Thracian crowd pleaser.

DG Dr G

24:34

Yeah, and this is the thing because the speculation in the source is that Spartacus was a Thracian, this Bosphorus King. Yeah, but there's also further scholarship seems to suggest that we might be talking about somebody who's great who ski Theon. So yeah, which is not that far away from Thrace geographically

DR Dr Rad

24:54

now isn't. isn't like if you think about you've got mainland Greece there and as you move around, you've got Thrace up here. Yeah, and Graco ski theory is kind of wedged in the wait, is this GIF? Yeah, like one of the places where supposedly it's kind of inspiration for the Amazons mind. Yeah.

DG Dr G

25:09

It's like this mythical sort of out there sort of thing. Yeah. But it's connected to Greece on some level. Yeah. So that's 440 BCE.

DR Dr Rad

25:21

All right, so moving into 439. Dr. G. Oh, yeah, of course, have some new consoles, although not as new as you might imagine, because one of them is in my account. Titus Quintus. Capital, Linus, who is console for the sixth

DG Dr G

25:36

time. Oh, yeah. He was constantly in 471 468 465-440-6443. And now 430. Yeah, very popular, man. You're getting a bit grey though.

DR Dr Rad

25:50

With everybody? Yes. I think he definitely is. I mean, when we think about his peak, that was like 20 years ago, now, you know, back and forth six year. Yeah, I think he is probably moving on a little bit, but he is experienced as a new denying that. Yeah. And we

DG Dr G

26:07

also have a gripper. Yep. Son of Titus runs on of a gripper. lanatus. So appears to be a relation to direct relation to the previous tightest moneyness of gripper. So he's son potentially.

DR Dr Rad

26:23

And the man nei or his brother, yeah, them in any I go way back to the early republic, lest we forget the most famous one NES who gave that whole story about how the beans had to come back after the first secession because otherwise, you know, the state as a body couldn't function. Oh, yeah. That was in other plants,

DG Dr G

26:45

the stomach and that one

DR Dr Rad

26:49

was stomach. Pleasure many things. But I think that the patricians were the ones that were like feed me. But you really need that to us to spread the nutrients to the arms, the legs. Yeah. Anyway, that was him.

DG Dr G

27:03

So just to give us a heads up on where we're at with spurious mailers. Yes. So this is the year according to my source material, where he starts to come into his prominence. And apparently what has happened to him is that his father has died. And he's come into the inheritance and he's looking around at what to do with it. And you can see that Rome is in a state of Roma in relation to this famine, and he's like, Okay, it's time for me to step up to the plate. So he does go and get a shipment of grain from a TURia. Right, but it's not the only shipment that he buys. Okay? So he actually ends up buying three shipments in so he heads down to Naples when what Naples is your like, Naples legal doesn't exist? Well,

2 Speaker 2

27:53

no, I just mean in the sense of so not that far away, how they are not really good green.

DG Dr G

27:59

That I don't know, this makes me think that the prefect of the grain supply is an absolute rubbish candidate for the job, because there's literally source no grain, according to our source material. And yet, this guy, spurious Melee is able to get up and go out. And he manages to bring in three separate supplies. He brings in some from Sicily. He goes out to Kumi. And my seen him so down in the Bay of Naples brings back stuff from there and from materia so he's gone north, and he's gone south, he's gone a little bit south again. And he's actually drawn in all of this extra grain.

DR Dr Rad

28:37

I hear what you're saying. However, my question is, and I actually don't know the answer to this. It's just something that's occurred to me, is the problem that the prefect of the corn supply doesn't have the funds. Is it kind of like our modern day?

DG Dr G

28:51

I'm just the bureaucracy. I mean, I asked them for the money, and they just never give it to me. Yeah, I have to wait for the paperwork to go through

DR Dr Rad

28:57

these days, we are constantly hearing cases where businesses are stepping in because they have more money, more cash flow than most governments in the world

DG Dr G

29:06

and streamline their decision making and they don't have to jump through a whole bunch of legal No, it's

DR Dr Rad

29:10

not democracy. So yeah, I mean, maybe Is that what's going on? Not that this is not that I'm in any way suggesting that room is a democracy. But I'm just wondering if maybe this prefect of the quantify means you don't actually have unlimited funds to secure

DG Dr G

29:26

Yeah, and maybe he's asking around, but maybe he doesn't have the monetary capacity to me. Yeah, just stick

DR Dr Rad

29:32

Exactly. Well, I still have Lucia some indicators listed as the prefect to quantify for this year as well. Libby actually specifically notes that he's not sure whether he was reappointed, or whether he just been elected for some sort of indefinite period until the problem was solved because these sources are in conflict. However, Manoukian is named in the linen roles as a magistrate for 440 and 439. Hence why Levine sort of bringing all this up and linen roles preserved a chronological list of magistrates. So it indicates that Liddy's sources I would say, rather than living himself have gone and consulted these documents.

DG Dr G

30:12

Yeah. And it sounds like I mean, it seems reasonable that this is not just a one year issue, if you're having a famine, this is good to have flow on consequences, because as soon as you've got people hungry and unable to do the hard physical labour that is required to get the seeds in to do the work, or who are going after that crop and bringing the next one the harvest. Yeah, well, you're going to have problems the next year as well. Yeah. So you start to spiral really, quite quickly. Yeah. If you've got a situation where your crop gets knocked out one year,

DR Dr Rad

30:42

definitely. So what happens in Libby's account is that Monique is is obviously still trying really hard to get some corn. And this is why I wonder about the whole funding issue. malleus, of course, no problems. He's just doing it. But the catch is that because they are trying to solve the same problem, there are similar men visiting both of their houses, and consulting with both of them. And as a result, Manoukian gradually becomes aware of the fact that nucleus might be scheming to do something really terrible. And he finally got hands on and so Manoukian goes to the Senate, and starts telling them about all the signs that Malleus is giving off, that he is aiming to make himself king. So yeah, there's a little list. So number one, he's badgering people. How Jerry, number two weapons are being collected and stashed in his house. Ooh, yeah, I know. Number three. tribunes of the plebs are being bribed. Hmm.

DG Dr G

31:50

Never happens.

DR Dr Rad

31:52

Number four, leaders of the mob had been assigned their parts. Now that's a direct quote from the translation that I am drawing from. I got it. That means that, you know, he's got some people on his side who represent the populace. And he's like, right, when I give you the signal, Robert Redford style.

DG Dr G

32:08

Yeah, you do this. This is the stick.

DR Dr Rad

32:12

Exactly. So it's really badly planned. The final thing was, he had not yet set a date for when he was going to like roll this all into motion. You know, what we said the year before? He wasn't quite ready yet. He wasn't launching.

DG Dr G

32:28

It's coming, guys. It's coming. Yeah.

DR Dr Rad

32:30

Now Manoukian is reassures the Senate that he had held off reporting on these details as long as possible, because he wanted to be 100% sure about what he was saying before he reported it so they can feel pretty certain.

DG Dr G

32:45

You gotta feel a sense of confidence that these are not just spurious claims.

DR Dr Rad

32:50

Yeah. Nice. Now, when the Senate hears this, they are furious with that the spirit is the consoles of 440 because they had a loud Malleus to start handing corn out for free. And they turned the other way. When Peruvians started gathering in a private house. I mean, come on. What's more of a tip off than that?

DG Dr G

33:16

It's interesting, because there's, I mean, there's obviously quite direct similarities between Levy's account here and Dionysius account. He does cut back in. Yeah, sometime in 439 is very exciting. Excellent, excellent. And part of what dynasty is is suggesting that happens is that there is a deficiency in spirits. maelys is character, which is obviously why he's interested in aiming for tyranny. Definitely. And so he's sort of prompted by a whole bunch of like, poor character flaws. Yeah. But what he does, according to Dionysius, is that because he's actually doing something about this grain supply issue, and he appears to be solving it, and he's going on to sell the grain that he acquires at discount rates at a loss to himself. He's definitely bought it for more than he's selling it for. Right. And in some insist, starting to give it away for free to people who really need it. He's gathered a really loyal bunch of popular support. Yeah. And they're basically like, functional politics will rule in this place. And they'll like, we see you prefect of the grain supply. Yeah. Doing nothing. Yeah, not solving the problem. Get out of that magisterial chair you don't belong in it. And Melee is please sit down so he starts acting like a magistrate de facto because Manoukian can't get back in because they're like yeah, he's got the whole people being like you don't know anything about

34:41

yourself and Nacho

DR Dr Rad

34:44

he's like, No, I don't treat his haven't been invented yet.

DG Dr G

34:50

And they put melee us on the chair. And so this is a direct violation of everything about the traditional way of Romans doing things and this is To the people stepping up and being like, Well, if he knows how to solve the grain problem, I guess he gets to be the prefect of the grain. And everyone's like, yes, yes. But Manoukian is like, well, I'm in trouble. One. It's a problem that I've had my chair taken away from me. And now that guy is sitting in it, yeah. But there's no way that this isn't going to turn against me. Like, if maelys is going to keep this up, he's probably going to have to kill me. I need to have countermeasures in place. Interesting. So he spends a lot of time doing the rounds, having quiet chats to people, because he's like, not everybody who's working for me, alias is can be loyal. Yeah, Surely not. There's got to be a weak link in this chain. And when he finds that person, yeah, that person gives you becomes an informant. And then he gets the proof he needs to go to the Senate.

DR Dr Rad

35:51

Yeah, nice. I like your version much better. It's like a film law. Any hearing so back in my version, are also angry with the new consoles because they had to wait for Manoukian to bring this to their attention. Whereas, you know, they should have probably done something about it by now.

DG Dr G

36:11

It's interesting how hands off the consoles have been

DR Dr Rad

36:14

especially capitalised. It's I mean, come on. Yeah. And

DG Dr G

36:16

they haven't been paying attention or if they have been paying attention, they've decided not to act, either is problematic. This is

DR Dr Rad

36:25

okay. This is where they've it gets interesting. And I think we can definitely sense a patrician line of thought coming through. Because capital, Linus, of course, being the star that he is, he's going to take that line down. And so he says, well, oh, you can't get angry at us for this whole situation, the laws of appeal of what's holding us back here. That's where you really have to wait. Because the laws of appeal were designed to undermine consular power. And they were stopping him from punishing crimes as harshly as they needed to be. Now Wow, getting that I don't think he punished Malleus like at all that logic? Well,

DG Dr G

37:03

I was gonna say one melee, it hasn't hasn't faced any sort of formal proceedings yet. So he hasn't had a chance to appeal.

DR Dr Rad

37:10

No, no. And this is going back to something that we talked about for the for 49. Year that never ended, which is that when the second December, it was finally removed from office. There was a restoration of certain parts of the Roman state and hilarious and Herati is and this law of appeal was one of those it would seem that the patricians never really got over the fact that that was reintroduced, along with things like you know Tribune's as the plebs. These are things that they could have lived without, even though they were happy to get rid of the second December it clearly, however, Dr. G. This is a situation that calls for one man, not limited by laws. One man who is bold and sexier, one man who

DG Dr G

37:58

happens to be 80 years old, at this point.

2 Speaker 2

38:02

One man called uses good ideas. In other words,

DG Dr G

38:09

call out the old man.

2 Speaker 2

38:11

Everyone's thrilled except for Cincinnatus. He's too old for this shit. Literally.

DG Dr G

38:18

Yeah, we haven't heard from Cincinnatus in a while. And I don't think anybody in their right mind would be expecting to level with you. Because he is so old. He is a cynics at this point in every sense of the word he has to be at least at

DR Dr Rad

38:32

I can't remember the last time he was dictator in our account. It was a long time ago for 50 a day. There you go. Yeah,

DG Dr G

38:39

let me let me go back and check that detail.

DR Dr Rad

38:41

Yeah, yeah, that's all right. But yeah, while you check that oh, man, of course that saying to him Oh, but Cincinnatus.

2 Speaker 2

38:48

You're so wise, you're so brave. You're still a Silva. Fuck

DR Dr Rad

38:54

you still fun and stuff?

DG Dr G

38:58

Yeah, you just keep going. It's like Methuselah is just in is never ready

DR Dr Rad

39:02

yet. The consoles are not going to give up. They want Him and Him alone for this job.

DG Dr G

39:08

So I think this is a really, really fascinating moment in early Roman history. And it's partly because of the way this the subsequent events go down. And also because of the elements of alternative accounts that Dionysus will bring into this narrative. There are two narratives for how what happens next goes down.

DR Dr Rad

39:32

Okay, well, should I go with mine? And then oh, yeah, go for it. All right. Okay. So Cincinnatus, of course, always gives in hence why the Romans love him. He's always

DG Dr G

39:42

grumpy, but he says, Yes. Like Luke from

DR Dr Rad

39:45

the Gilmore Girls, you know, he's grumpy, but he's there. Anyway, so he's praying that the gods are not going to let an old man falter when Rome is in such danger, but he accepts that position, and he chooses one Gaius Sebelius a holla. Uh huh. as master of his horse, okay. Now, obviously, as we talked about before, dictator, there's usually like a military element to this. And hence why you would choose a master the horse, who would be in charge of your cavalry also be like a lieutenant or deputy to the dictator. So it makes sense that that's why they have this sort of arrangement in this particular context. At the moment, obviously, he's trying to solve political issues, but ones that are threatening enough, it might lead to military events

DG Dr G

40:36

where you can think of the dictatorship and the master like the dictator, and the master of the horse as being two sides of the power coin, if you like, is now streamlining everything into a hierarchy, where you've got judicial power at the top, which is the dictator, and you've got directly below him his capacity to Command Military power for the execution exactly of whatever needs to be done. Yes. It's about getting the job done in the fastest way possible. Yeah. Swift and easy. No discussion.

DR Dr Rad

41:04

Yes. And that's what he's been known for in the past. And sure enough, he does it again. So in my account, Cincinnatus, stationing guards along the route to the farm, and that of course sets the plebs off thinking was gonna wait a bit. There aren't normally guys around here. What's going on? Now Melee is his crew and Malleus since it maybe this might have something to do with what they've been up to recently. No, yeah. Some people of course, had no idea that there was a conspiracy afoot, so they're genuinely confused. So like, is there a war happening? I haven't heard is Cincinnatus being called in because of some foreign invader? Yes. The

DG Dr G

41:42

Nacho King. Yeah.

DR Dr Rad

41:43

I mean, yes. And they like particularly Cincinnatus. I mean, he's seriously old man, what's going on? So there's some very confused and

DG Dr G

41:51

that's due to the wheelchair. Yeah, done those questions.

DR Dr Rad

41:56

Now, a holla is sent off by Cincinnatus to go and fetch Malleus course through the problem Malleus is terrified naturally, and asked why am I being summoned playing the innocent card girl love it. And how that tells him well, you're going to be put on trial you've been accused by the nucleus of you know, conspiring to be king

DG Dr G

42:17

do

DR Dr Rad

42:19

Melee is tries to retreat from this whole situation and try to use his you know, entourage around him to like shield himself and it's playing down. He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. I've never even heard of the word Rex. What do you mean? Okay, but their intent on dragging him away, even if it means that they have to use force. So this is exactly this is exactly what the monster of the voice is full. Yeah, exactly. Now Melee is naturally uses his last card, which is he screams out to the plebs for protection. Now, we might recall, because of all the free grain very predisposed towards him, they very much like him. And so they're a bit like, Okay, what's going on? Now? Uh, huh. knows that this could potentially therefore escalate really quickly into something highly unpleasant and unnecessary. So he kills him on the spot. Hmm. Yeah. It's a trap.

DG Dr G

43:13

Quick and easy. Yeah. Done and dusted. Yeah, no questions asked.

DR Dr Rad

43:19

So a holler is now covered in blood, because it's just killed man. Oh, we did it himself. Oh, yeah. A real man takes out his injuries and Oh, boy. Yeah. So he's covered in blood and his group around him our guys none other than the young rhetoricians. You Who else would be sent to carry out such a job. So he goes back to Cincinnatus with these people and himself looking the way they does, and explains how Melee has had resisted arrest and then you know, causing an issue and therefore, he killed him,

DG Dr G

43:53

you know, establish that. Yeah,

DR Dr Rad

43:54

exactly. Cincinnatus doesn't say, well, that's not the proper procedure. In my account, he says, Well done guy as soon as you have delivered the common. Most Excellent. Oh, no. Yes. Now, of course, everyone else is still quite confused. Because some people didn't know about the conspiracy. And some people who had heard Melee is calling out for help. They don't really know how to feel about this. And so there's a fair amount of chaos in the streets. So Cincinnatus orders and assembly to this assembly, he explains that Melee is yes, has been killed, technically, had not been put on trial, and therefore, I guess was innocent. And Cincinnati's had been prepared to listen to what he had to say and you know, give a fair judgement, make a reasoned decision. However, that just hadn't been what happened, you know, chips fall where they do,

DG Dr G

44:51

so unfortunate, but he's dead.

DR Dr Rad

44:53

Exactly. Melee is of course had been well aware that Rome wasn't keen on kings and that they had have historically not liked people who tried to bring it back, refer to spurious Cassius of the 480s and the decimal years of more recent memory, we don't like them. But at least those people had some sort of real achievement. You know, they had some nobility about them, who was Malleus he was that thing. The best set he could have ever dreamed of, was to be a plebeian tribute. And that's not saying very much because we know housings and others feels about them. Melius had been so Craven and he imagined that he could buy the firm's with some good leads. And so I think you can see where Cincinnatus is going with this. I can see his patrician Yeah, buyers coming out here. Do

DG Dr G

45:51

the people buy it?

DR Dr Rad

45:53

Well, you know, it's not so much whether they buy it. But Cincinnatus decides that you know what, actually, after hearing myself talk, now that I reflect upon it, yeah, I actually don't think that killing him on the spot without a trial is enough. And so they decided that they're going to completely tear his house to the ground, because it was the place where he is even blown and insanity had been conceived, and that his property should be confiscated, as he had tried to buy Rome with it. Wow. So the question is, are ordered by Cincinnatus, to collect all this stuff, and the money is going to go into the public treasury. And that is where 439 finishes up believing?

DG Dr G

46:37

Wow. All right, what a tale.

DR Dr Rad

46:40

I miss International. Yeah, he's

DG Dr G

46:42

back in town. Boy, things are spicy again. It doesn't take him long. Yeah. So I've got some various accounts, both of which are predominantly quite different. So we've got the new case going to the Senate. It's kind of like the last sort of moment that I think I gave you on this account. And he informs them with his informing me like, look, I've got proof that alias is up to no good. And then the crisis that happens with dinosaurs of Pelican assets in this moment is that his speech is missing.

2 Speaker 2

47:19

I never what did I know? And Leakey hamburger

DG Dr G

47:24

sauce cuts out. Yeah, the speech is missing. And the source cuts back in again. And action is happening.

DR Dr Rad

47:32

Right? Okay.

DG Dr G

47:32

So you're like, okay, so Manoukian gave a big speech, and we don't hear the details of it. But nevertheless, what we know is that the Senate decides that they must choose a dictator, right? And they must appoint a master of the horse, right? And that's fine, and dynasties of Halicarnassus, it seems and we can only guess because we've only got like bits and pieces here and there. We're not getting the whole source at this point. It seems like he holds back on telling us who the dictator is. And who the master of the horses. What Yeah, he reveals the names later into the narrative. There's just like a suspense building moment for him.

DR Dr Rad

48:08

When a master storyteller, he's Reverend ethics,

DG Dr G

48:10

he should. And one of the things that gets decided in this meeting, because it appears that Cincinnatus is in the city, they that there doesn't seem to be any travel narrative and going out to the farm, or

DR Dr Rad

48:21

that's true, the funny thing was just my embellishment

DG Dr G

48:23

doesn't he does seem to be around and so they find him quite quickly

DR Dr Rad

48:27

when he is at. So

DG Dr G

48:29

when he's gonna walk or something over there, pick him up and take him away. Chase that old man, bring him back to the senate house. And what they do is they decide that they need to secure the Capitol. And fundamentally, the Capitol is this hill in the centre of Rome. And it's considered important from a defensive perspective. And in these really early accounts, or certainly later writers suggest that there is a citadel some sort of defensive structure on the top of it, that seems to maybe pre date the temples and things like that, alongside them, because you have the story of Tom Peyer, who goes in very early on under the kings and tries to convince Titus teachers to do some stuff. And anyway, she compromises the whole capital fortress. Yes. So they decided that they need to hold this defensive structure quite secretly. Right. So in the middle of the night, their first plan is to secretly move over to the capital, and stake it out and get their position ready, because they what they don't want is they don't want melee us to find out that they've put in a dictator. Right. Okay. They want him to continue to behave as normal, right? So the sun rises over the Roman Forum, and melee us wanders in with these chums. The populace. He's tossing green here, he's tossing green there. People are grabbing it on the air, it looks like gold. And he sits down on the ministerial chair. I'm open nucleus, which the people have given to him, and he starts to conduct his daily business being like, Alright, I'm the prefect of the grain, what you want, like small grain, he's like Chuck, a handful people scramble

DR Dr Rad

50:14

and

DG Dr G

50:16

people are loving it. And it's at that point that the master of the horse named not yet revealed, turns up at the forum

DR Dr Rad

50:25

and says a holla.

DG Dr G

50:30

Turns up with the flower of the Roman knights. So this might be code for the younger generation isn't

DR Dr Rad

50:38

really the young patricians, Ferraris around.

DG Dr G

50:41

What's really interesting is that Dionysius tells us that these men are carrying swords under their clothing. Look, I

DR Dr Rad

50:49

would expect nothing less, except maybe switchblades. Because that's more in keeping with the younger trend.

DG Dr G

50:54

But to me, it's like this moment, that's quiet. I was like, Wait a minute. We're inside the premium at this point.

DR Dr Rad

51:02

Now you write it for me.

DG Dr G

51:04

And just because there is a dictator in power, yeah, doesn't mean doesn't mean you get to carry a sword inside the primaries. And so I went checked the the actual Greek being like, is this like somebody's doing a bit of a dirty on the translation? Yeah, but it's definitely the Greek word for sword. Wow. So they do have swords inside the pair, Mariam, and traditionally, the dictator gets to have 24 lictors shot. And the thing that gets to distinguish him from other magistrates as he gets to have the axes inside the bundle of rugs, so 24x heads Yeah, on display inside the

DR Dr Rad

51:39

numerator threat. Yeah. Lots of threat. Yeah,

DG Dr G

51:42

lots of threat. But Swords is a different thing altogether,

DR Dr Rad

51:45

and not being carried that you know, it is just a thread it is supposed to be open. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

DG Dr G

51:51

So swords hidden underneath your clothing is like, what is going on here?

DR Dr Rad

51:55

Yeah. And also tricky, given that they don't have zippers around your title

DG Dr G

51:59

with a little piece of string, like you're under tunic, and then it slices off your what's it like,

DR Dr Rad

52:04

oh, boy, I'm just imagining, again, going back to the time where you and I wore something akin to Roman clothing. I'm just like, where would you put it? It's telling the butt cheeks blade would be balanced.

DG Dr G

52:16

Yeah, secretly in between some folds, but definitely not near the skin.

52:21

And Marcus, you look like a classic faded.

DG Dr G

52:24

Just walking very carefully. Blade between my butt cheeks.

DR Dr Rad

52:28

make me sad. It's just an haemorrhoids.

DG Dr G

52:30

And so we've got this situation, which is highly unusual. And I want to hold on to it because I think it's going to become relevant to my interpretation of what might be going on here. Lana, okay, so hold that one. Okay. Malleus has a pretty reasonable question when he sees these dudes turn up, because it's pretty clear that something's not quite right. Sure. And civilians has now revealed himself. He's like, Oh, man, this is like, Can I help you? Yeah. And he's like, on the master of the horse. And mainly, this is like, since when? Do we have a dictator? Yes, exactly. Which is a reasonable question, given the scenario. Yeah. And it's like, since last night. And then like, you've got to come with us. And it's like, you know, civilians gives this speech, or Dionysus gives it to him. And it's basically like, look, you've been accused of certain things, including, you know, aspiring to revolution, aspiring to kingship, you're going to have to come and answer to the dictator. We're going to have a chat about that, you need to kick it over to the capitol where everybody's hanging out for that chat. Yes. So it makes it seem like this is a very civilised, sort of, well, you know, I'm just here during the execution of the month of the horse job. And you're just the guy who's been accused of like, trying to become a king. Yeah, you know, if you come with us, we'll figure that out shot. And Malea is like I'm not going Oh. And so he's like, he turns to the people and he's like, help me these people do not want to talk to me. They want to kill me.

DR Dr Rad

54:11

Before he did that you neglected to mention the grab some pastries and put them up with yours. And he was like, help me only hope.

DG Dr G

54:19

Stuffing grain like I need your help is not a trial and being summoned to death. Yeah. And while this is happening, this sort of creates a sort of stir amongst the people unless the confusion and stuff Yeah, and it seems pretty clear that Melee is is gonna get arrested. Right. You know, the the men with the swords are sort of closing in.

DR Dr Rad

54:42

I was kind of figuring that. That's what was happening. Yeah, I mean, you're arrested. Yeah,

DG Dr G

54:46

the plebeians aren't armed. You're not supposed to be armed. Yeah, you know, so they're kind of like thoughts. I don't know. And so there's, there's a sense in which the people want to help but they also don't want to get involved because they're like, ooh, blades. Not great for me.

DR Dr Rad

55:00

I don't have one of those. Yeah,

DG Dr G

55:01

I'm not ready for that. Yeah. And so he kind of runs away. And so then he gets Chase rice. And then he runs up to a butcher store.

55:11

Oh, God another.

DG Dr G

55:14

I know we've we've had this kind of moment before such a safety hazard that he grabs a cleaver needed to believe. And also like, you know, you've got to defend yourself. All of a sudden they all have these men's with swords are coming after you. Sure. So he then you start swinging wildly with his cleaver. He actually hacks off somebody's arm. Yeah. Terrible.

DR Dr Rad

55:37

Sorry. Sherry, just a second visual, and I definitely miss that for the first couple seconds.

DG Dr G

55:42

Yeah. So he, like people are coming out in with swords and hacks off one of their arms. Right. This opens up

DR Dr Rad

55:50

the licence for violent, right. Yes. Provocation

DG Dr G

55:53

provocation. Yeah. And they proceed to hack into pieces. Okay, yeah. They dismember him in the forum, at the site of the butcher stand. And then they put his body on display all the pieces of it. Yeah. And they put it somewhere prominent in the forum. And then they go back to Cincinnatus.

DR Dr Rad

56:17

This is sounding almost mediaeval in the way like displaying body parts of December traders. Yeah. If it has mentioned right here, reason why we said the butcher thing is because that's how the creature is dad. No, sorry. Virginia's dad managed to kill her. Yeah. Think butcher's knife. Yeah, there's not meant to be any weapons in that place. And that's how he managed to do it. Yeah.

DG Dr G

56:39

Yeah. The witches stand becomes very convenient when you can't have weapons in the forest. Turns out, because there's clearly you can have bleeds for practical use and the tools you need to do your trade. Yeah. So they make a clear distinction between weapons and the practical things.

DR Dr Rad

56:57

I love this. You can I'm picturing right now, if this was like an Ocean's 11 type film in Rome in any setting. They're like, how do we get weapons inside the area? Simple?

2 Speaker 2

57:11

Yeah. Anyway, everyone goes, you're right. The loophole that we needed now the plan is complete.

DG Dr G

57:18

And so this has a real sort of flow on effect because civilians goes back to the Senate. Yeah. And Cincinnatus. Yeah. And he has to explain his actions. I mean, he does try to defend himself. And he's like, look, you know, he pulled a cleaver on us. Yeah. You have to wonder the man's arms off flower of the youth. We dismembered it. As if that doesn't take a lot of time and effort. Yeah, probably more of the butcher's equipment. Yeah. And the other thing that's going on at the same time is is this groundswell in support of Melee is coming from the plebeians. Sure, some of those voices are really vocal. Cincinnatus stays in power as dictator, to make sure that those people are quietly slaughtered. Yeah, so he puts these men to death secretly. And then resigns.

DR Dr Rad

58:17

Wow. Well, yeah. I mean, that's how Cincinnatus gets things done.

DG Dr G

58:21

Yeah, but wait for it. Yeah. And this, this is where things get things get really interesting because then Dionysius tells us that this is the account that he thinks he's credible. Mm hmm. But there are other accounts told by other historians Yeah, which he thinks should not be believed. Okay. And they're told to us by Cynthia's and Calpurnius well, but they're both historians, and they're both closer to the action than Dionysus. Oh, yeah. No doubt. Yeah. So this is Lucia, Cynthia's elementis, who is a Roman senator and historian from the early No, the late third century BCE. So he's upright or in 210 BCE, so we might see him come up later. Yeah. And he also seems to have some chats with Hannibal at certain times. And then we've also got Lucy is Calpurnius piso frugi. Oh, I've heard of him. Yeah. Who is tribune of the plebs in 149 BCE, constantly 133 which will stand out as the date of significance to other listeners, I am sure. And is an opponent infamously of glass Grappas.

DR Dr Rad

59:30

Yeah, definitely connected to the gracchi there.

DG Dr G

59:33

Yeah. And he writes a seven book, animalistic history. And both of these historians give a different version of the things which I think I'm gonna spoiler alert. I think it's more believable.

DR Dr Rad

59:46

Really? Yeah, I kind of really digging the version you were telling said,

DG Dr G

59:49

but I think the version that we've just been told, is a protrusion cover up for

DR Dr Rad

59:57

an assassination

DG Dr G

59:58

well explaining the misuse have power. Yeah. Because there are weapons in the forum. Yeah. I don't think a dictator can really do that. It doesn't seem right. It's a it's a misuse.

DR Dr Rad

1:00:08

Like even in lady's account, which now seems ridiculously sugar coated, I mean, always like I could read this for three year old. It's so good. They're just remembering exactly. However, I think you can definitely see that there were questions being asked about how things were taken care of. Yeah. And that's why Cincinnatus felt the need to call that assembly, because didn't happen the way it's supposed to.

DG Dr G

1:00:31

Yeah, yeah, there are some real issues with what happens in this year yet seem. And so one of these things is that we've got this idea that Manoukian This is informing, on May alias. And in that meeting, the Senate gets so stirred up about this possibility of the kingship question, that they come to a decision to actually put into death without a trial. That's the decision that they make. Now, this is the alternative narrative, which seems more and more plausible, the more I think about it, so they look for somebody to appoint to this task. And civilians is the kind of slightly crazed in the eye nebulous young man. Yes. Who says that he will do it? Yeah. He's one of these young patrician types. Yeah. And so he takes his dagger, and he hides it under his cloak. He approaches melee us in the forum goes up to him while he's holding court on that ministry or tab that he's not supposed to be on and says, Can we have a word man to man for a moment? I need to, you know, we need a

DR Dr Rad

1:01:40

bit of a private chat. And he's standing right there.

DG Dr G

1:01:43

We need a bit of a private check. Yeah, give us some space. Yeah. Melee says like, sees that he's serious knows that. He's a patrician. Yeah. And it's like, Oh, sure. But um, yeah, like, please some space and we need to have a private chat now. Yes. is still a rich guy. Man. This is still a rich guy. Yeah. Connections. Yeah. Yeah. And he can see that it's serious. And he gives the space. Yeah. And civilians pulls out the dagger and stabs him straight into the jugular. Goes straight for the throat. Mainly it bleeds out in front of everybody. So obvious civilians has to run away. This is why he's got blood all over him. How do you get a lot of Liviu? Somebody bleeds out in three minutes? And you're there holding the dagger?

DR Dr Rad

1:02:24

Yeah, yeah.

DG Dr G

1:02:26

Wrote stabbed?

DR Dr Rad

1:02:27

God. Yeah. Yes. Aha.

DG Dr G

1:02:34

He runs back to the senate house. And people pursue him. So he has to get out of there quickly. Like, this is like he's one man. Yeah. And he's

DR Dr Rad

1:02:42

just turned around. And Integra,

DG Dr G

1:02:44

she stabbed the guy that everybody's on the side of in the forum right in front of them. Yeah. Yeah,

1:02:51

he's the key to grain man. really gonna get the notches now.

DG Dr G

1:02:56

I was looking forward to the guacamole, bringing up a kados that was next on the list. And he so he runs into the Senate House with people pursuing him. And he says he screams out that he's destroyed the tyrant at the command of the Senate. So we tried to like, you know, trying to like you know, yeah, and also to like, you know, keep those people back. Yeah. You know, like I did it on the orders of the Senate. That's why I did I was only following orders.

DR Dr Rad

1:03:25

Yeah, times and we had that one.

DG Dr G

1:03:28

Yeah. And so this whole problem is a thing where for some reason, Dionysius decides to go into a slight digression where he explains the cognomen. Allah, Allah,

DR Dr Rad

1:03:44

we already know. So you'll see

DG Dr G

1:03:47

a lot, which doesn't really work very well in Greek, apparently, but apparently, it's because he was hiding the dagger in his armpit. Right. And this is what the Romans called the armpit of the Hola.

DR Dr Rad

1:03:59

Uh huh.

DG Dr G

1:04:04

And so we get these other accounts then from other sources, which suggests that civilians has to be exiled. Hmm. So in order for this to work, and in order for, you know, the Senate to be able to continue to suggest that it's got some legitimacy. Yes. They've got to get rid of him.

1:04:26

Before the penalty.

DG Dr G

1:04:27

Yeah, yeah. But it strikes me that we've got this moment where, because neither of these stories make heaps of sense, but I think this second one might make more sense that there is actually a misuse and abuse of patrician power in this moment, you get wound up about this guy. And since an artist is a nice story, for them to be able to say, well, it was all legitimate and it was all done under a dictator and it was all fine. But you've got this other counter narrative, which suggests that there wasn't a dictator. It was just The decision made in the Senate, they just execute this guy without a trial. And they asked for a volunteer and severely this was the crazy guy who said he do it. And presumably there was some sort of reward for a minute, but he was going to have to go into exile afterwards. And that's how they were going to dust their hands of it, and just have it done. Which sounds to me more like the kind of patrician Senate power plays that we're used to seeing just going that one step further, which is a step too far.

DR Dr Rad

1:05:28

See? God, I mean, look, part of me is loath to give up the idea of Cincinnatus being a part of this, because then he can't say the lethal weapon line. But do you see where you're coming from?

DG Dr G

1:05:41

It seems like there's there is something going on in this year. And clearly melee us doesn't come out alive. No, he's ended up dead. Yeah. How do we explain it? And it's like, you've got the dictatorship as this point of legitimacy. But you've still got the issue of at least in Dionysius, this use of swords?

DR Dr Rad

1:06:03

Oh, look, I

DG Dr G

1:06:04

think and which I account to, to me is like, yeah, I felt the plant. My mind is not comfortable with that tension. And I'm like, Oh, I feel like there's more that I want to investigate there. And I'm not a specialist in early Roman republican history. No, me and yet, like, know what's

DR Dr Rad

1:06:21

happening, I think we've got a bit of a feel for the type of characters that we're dealing with and the kind of situation that has arisen. And we can definitely see that there is still a lot of unhappiness about a lot of the things that were restored. In the wake of the second December, even 10 years. Aren't they're not over it. Oh, yeah.

DG Dr G

1:06:41

By no means no.

DR Dr Rad

1:06:43

And they never will be. So there's all of that going on. But yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from with that whole thing. On top of which, I feel like even saying that what Melius had done in Levy's account, you know, giving out the green for free, that this was a really terrible precedent. I feel like that is coming from his own time. I mean, at this moment in time, people are starving. You gotta get them green. Manoukian ain't cabinet. No. So yeah, I get where he's coming from in terms of, I'm generally not a huge fan of private people stepping in where a government should be. But this is not the

DG Dr G

1:07:24

life and death situation. Yeah. And he's doing something. Yeah. And

DR Dr Rad

1:07:29

this isn't the kind of government that I would probably want in charge. Anyway. So yeah, wherever women's rights? Yeah, exactly. Anywho. Wow. Okay, well, what a roller coaster. I think it's time for the Marshall big. Your impression of ego gets better every time.

DG Dr G

1:07:48

Thank you. Thank you. Thank

DR Dr Rad

1:07:49

you. All right, Dr. G, so I have no idea where we're going to end up for these two years. Let's see how we go. Well, okay,

DG Dr G

1:07:54

so we've got five categories. Yes. It should be scored out of 10 Gold eagles. Yeah, for possible maximum of 50 Gold Eagle indeed. All right. The first category military clout. No. But that was the least the ones mentioned.

DR Dr Rad

1:08:12

It was on space. Not in a military capacity.

DG Dr G

1:08:16

All right. big fat zero. Diplomacy. Still think No. on the ground? Yeah. Very thin on the ground, you know, the

1:08:24

stabbing in the jugular?

DG Dr G

1:08:28

Yeah, you know, I mean, regardless of you know, dismembered and put on display, yeah, stabbed in the jugular and bleeding out in front of everybody.

DR Dr Rad

1:08:36

Like it's not the most diplomatic thing I've ever seen.

DG Dr G

1:08:40

Even for Roman stand, yes. Zero. Expansion.

DR Dr Rad

1:08:46

No, hard. No, no,

DG Dr G

1:08:48

we're tours are it's tough. Because you know, if the Romans are going with it, if they sincerely decide that since an artist is the narrative that this that man just carries were to us with him everywhere. Yeah. So there always would have to be at least one point on the table. I think just because he's been mentioned.

DR Dr Rad

1:09:03

Yeah, I was gonna say yeah, I feel like as much as we might be super suspicious of what's gone down here that people like Cincinnatus, and even a holla could be said to be acting with weird force in this situation, depending on the version.

DG Dr G

1:09:22

Yeah, depending on who you read. Yeah,

DR Dr Rad

1:09:25

yeah. So I'm really to say maybe like a two.

DG Dr G

1:09:29

Oh, yeah. One for each man. Yeah, ending on whether you're taking a patrician reading. Yeah, well, this is the thing.

DR Dr Rad

1:09:35

I'm highly suspicious of them versus etc. So and even even by Roman standards, again, with using that term previously here in the sense that I feel like the majority of Romans would not have been pleased by what just went down, that once again, this is an act that servicing a patrician minority, and their grasp on power. And so it's witness for them, but the way they're painting it as being like about liberty? Not so sure. I really don't think so. I mean, if we wait for you to die of starvation under our leadership, definitely, if we think back to you, okay, the December's it's a little hard to tell because there's you know, 10 of the one year term and another year, some of them are thought to be fictional, whatever. It's been hard to talk about them. But spruce, Cassius is other person who's mentioned as being someone who did to aspire to the kingship in the 480s, and was there for cut down. We also if you might remember, thought he was actually kind of a good guy trying to do the right thing. And he was just considered to be almost like a class traitor. And that's where he went wrong. So we'll give them to ya.

DG Dr G

1:10:53

In short information to feel weird to us exactly. Lots of asterisks and question marks remain. And finally, the citizen score. Was this a great time to be a citizen of Rome? sub level? Yes, all of a sudden, you didn't have to pay for grade and you weren't starving anymore? True. On the other hand, a lot of you had stabbed

DR Dr Rad

1:11:13

and throw yourself into the sky. But yeah, and then the guy who's giving you the free grain got

DG Dr G

1:11:17

murdered in front of you.

DR Dr Rad

1:11:20

And you didn't understand what was going on. Now. You're

DG Dr G

1:11:22

traumatised? Yes. Not enough therapy in ancient Rome for this

DR Dr Rad

1:11:26

and it's a huge JFK conspiracy cover up following this whole thing. So I have no idea where to stand.

DG Dr G

1:11:32

Yeah, like this, like, you know, outside tail of having to hold the capitol for what?

DR Dr Rad

1:11:37

Yeah, metal of maybe three. That's been probably generous. I honestly have no idea how to write

DG Dr G

1:11:46

I'm having to give them five okay, cuz you think about it, like on the one hand, or vision or starvation and, and the trauma of watching somebody that you thought was doing a good job for you get murdered in front of you. Yeah, on the other hand, a couple of years where life was tough, but Green was coming into the city and somebody was taking care of it. Yeah. And you felt like, actually, there was this glimmer of possibility where the people could do the politics like they shoved Manoukian out of that chair. Yeah. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yella, and they put me alias in there. And they're like, you're the man for us. And it's as good as this we voted you in because that's what we're gonna say we did.

DR Dr Rad

1:12:25

But then that glimmer of hope was snuffed out by an assassin's blade. I feel like it has to be a four. Just because because of the assassin negotiations. You convinced me you convinced me that Melee is was assassinated? You can sinister film lost our blood worthy of The Godfather. I think Francis Ford Coppola.

1:12:46

What are you doing?

DG Dr G

1:12:47

I imagine Yeah, hello. Bringing back the Roman epic. Yeah. All right, forward is okay. Okay,

DR Dr Rad

1:12:53

so that means FDG that we have wind up with a grand total of six golden eagles. We still feels like way too many.

DG Dr G

1:13:01

It is a terrible time for Rome to be row. Yeah.

DR Dr Rad

1:13:05

Anyway, join us next time for what will undoubtedly be a very messy mopping

DG Dr G

1:13:13

the stoop blood in the forest.

DR Dr Rad

1:13:20

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