The Basement: Quantum Compilation | From Particle Colliders to Parallel Realities

0:00Fort Knox, everybody's heard of it. Supposedly, it holds over 400,000 tons of US gold. But the thing is, the last full independent audit of that vault happened in 1953. Since then, we've gotten photo ops, supervised walkthroughs, and a whole lot of trust us. Never any outside auditors, no full inventory count. We're no way for anybody outside government to actually verify once down there. That's not a conspiracy theory. Nobody's checked. And when the backbone of the world's reserve currency rests on a promise nobody can verify, it's worth asking why your own retirement should rest on paper too. Physical metal, in your name, doesn't need an audit. You can just hold it. Call golden press metals and get their free investor kit. A walkthrough moving physical gold or silver into an IRA or 401K, tax and penalty free, or buying directly with cash. You'll also get a free portfolio review. No pressure, no hard sell. Just a straight conversation about what you're holding. From right now, golden press running a bonus of the $25,000 in free silver on qualifying

1:01purchases. Go to goldencressmetals.com slash the Y-Files or text the word files to metals. That's 63825 to receive free investor kit, a free portfolio review with no obligation or hard sell and on qualifying purchases of the $25,000 in bonus silver. All that when you go to goldencressmetals.com slash the Y-Files or text the word files to metals. Today's episode is a little different. We've pulled together some of the best science conversations we've had in the basement. Physicists, astrophysicists and researchers who spent their careers staring at the edges of what we actually understand. You'll hear from Dr. Travis Taylor on his theory that our universe might sit inside a black hole. I like those Russian nesting dolls except every doll is on fire and also everyone we love is inside it. Daniel Whiteson breaking down the Higgs boson and why the Planck scale isn't the wall people think it is. Obviously, the search for gravitons and whether extra dimensions are hiding in plain sight and it gets even stranger. Eric Wargo on quantum retro causation, while the future might be able to influence the

2:04past. I was so future me already knows how to niggas. I must be nice having someone that reckless to make it all my decisions for me. Tom Campbell and Rizwan Verk on entanglement, the double slid experiment and whether reality itself might be simulated. Along with a few other insightful guests. We start with the fundamentals and by the end we're deep into consciousness. Time and question science still hasn't answered. Question science has needed my favorite game. This one's a journey. Let's go down to the basement. Everyone starts with skin work with you but I gotta do this for me. I'm gonna start with the universe in a black hole. Is that the paper you're working on? For your next PhD you need another one of those. Well, a lot of people ask me why so many degrees, why I want to do all these different things. For the longest I was trying to get in the astronaut program.

3:06If you look at story musk grade for example, that guy's got uptained master's degrees, he jumps out of planes at 30,000 feet and all sorts of things. Test pilot, all that stuff. I thought, well, you gotta compete with those guys. You really, you gotta bring your A game. Also when I was a kid, I was about 10 years old. My dad, who was a master tool maker. He brought me a book. It was a beat up paperback book and since I've been reading this, I think you would really enjoy it. Once you read it then we'll talk about it. It was Eric Vandanikin's Chair at the Gods. Wow. I read it, absorbed it, read it again, bent pages on it so that we could come back and talk about it and my dad and I since that time for 48 years ago, we still to this day, we discuss new ideas that we've discovered, say in some religious text or theological book or even

4:10just a poll. We've written in history and we say, well, that sounds a lot like that they're describing technology, you know, not, and that's what got me into understanding the universe from the ancient aliens sort of perspective. George O. Suklis likes to say ancient astronaut theory. I keep explaining to him a theory has a much larger acceptance. This is a hypothesis. Right. That's an ancient astronaut hypothesis. But that's okay. He's not a scientist. He's a researcher and I applaud everything that the guys have done. Even if sometimes they go off in weird rabbit holes and lead you down a path that isn't the right answer, that's okay. That's how you learn, right? There's a, and the other reason. So not to skew too far. There was a, when it came out that I had been the chief scientist of the UAP task force. There was a guy who wrote a article in, I think it was the Washington Post.

5:11It said government, it says something like critics mystified or baffled by the government's choice of guy who believes in paranormal for the UAP task force chief scientist. I've never once said I believe in anything paranormal. I don't even like the word paranormal because of its paranormal means not within the universe and if it's within the universe or if it's not within the universe, then how are we seeing it and studying it, right? It's something that's happening is something that I don't believe in the word fringe because it's such thing as fringe science science science. If it's an unknown, you got to study it. But in that article, even the guy even went so far as to say his alleged education, alleged alleged education. He didn't do his homework, man. And I'm like, you're going to take pictures of my diplomas on my wall and my study at home or I'm sure my mom's got pictures of graduations. Not like other folks who claim they have master's degrees from somewhere and they can't improve. They went there not to get into that. But my point, my point about that is that yeah, he didn't do his homework for a reason.

6:17And that's where there's somebody. There's an active source of people, whether it's an act of general conspiracy just culturally or there's officially something being driven to discredit anybody who's asking questions. For example, Michael Schermer is a smart guy. He's a really smart guy. But his answer is always the skeptical answer from the start. And that's actually a violation of the scientific method. Yeah, honestly. I think he's getting his directive to swim somewhere. Yeah. So I think that's the point. And that's the one I'm going to, and I wanted to make a point about something. That's why I brought that up. I'll give you a real simple example so that you can use to explain to anybody. Let's say we have the videos that have come out and somebody says, well, we believe we can show the white, white and vogue UFOs. This could just be some phenomena, airplane light, glinting off of it.

7:18As Will Smith said, light reflecting from Venus. Right. Right. Well, that's fine. That is a possible solution. It's not the only solution. What's the square root of four? Right. Two? No, it's not. Square root of four is plus or minus two. That's true. Think about that because minus two times minus two is still four. There are two solutions to that question. And either one are equally valid. So is it light reflecting off of swamp gas from Venus or whatever, you know, or could it be something else? It is a solution, a viable solution. It is still a possibility that has to be investigated. And so that's why I wonder why there's something saying, well, don't look at that set of solutions. It's never minus two. It's always two. Right. That's the Collins group. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, we call, we don't call, we don't know who they are, but within the task force

8:19we called them the antibodies. Yeah. And we would run into the antibodies often. And we, just for asking questions, right? And the, when we became the official UAP task force, the National Defense Authority of authorization act, India of 2019 and 2020, gave us authority to be briefed at all classifications at all, all classifications. So and they didn't have to, they didn't have to brief us in and say, this is the technology is how it works. But if we asked them, was this you, they had to tell us by law, and it said that there's a felony if they didn't. And we had, we had multiple star officers tell us that they would commit the felony before telling us. Of course, of course they would. So that to me, that is, they're admitting that they're going to break the law. It's, it's treason. Yeah. Sorry, I got us off on a tangent. No, that's okay. I, that's why I, I've kind of learned everything I possibly can since I was 17 years old, get behind

9:25that door to see these things, understand these things. And, and, and number one, what if we need to be doing something? We don't have an Avengers initiative, right? That's true. That's on my list is when you were 17, how you worked on SDI, but black holes. Oh, yeah. Archaipathria, that said, universe is a black hole in the 70s. We've got Pappalowski in the 2010s. So this is not new, but your paper, I think, says our universe could fit into like five to 10 solar masses. Yes. So the, the paper that I, it's really weird that came about. I was actually working on a simulation hypothesis presentation for a conference. I forget which conference it was. And I was looking at world maps of video games, like say Minecraft, you got the square world map or whatever. And, and how they worked. And I realized that since you couldn't go, they weren't like the old Atari in Asteroid

10:27Dream, go off this side and you come back on this side, right? You know, that, that's actually a sphere. People don't realize that. But I was looking at the world map and I realized you can't go outside the boundaries of that. And so the video game itself has an event horizon. I just published a cookbook with Hungry Root called Gertie's Humpty Recipes. Because by Wednesday, who doesn't want a little Humpty treat? I built this cookbook around the food that hits that certain move. You know the one. Not that one. Get your mind out of the gutter. This is a cooking app. Wednesday's a weird day. You're halfway through the week and you're done with leftovers, but too tired to cook something. That's when this cookbook comes in. Gertie Root isn't just a meal kit, it's a whole grocery store. Recipes and groceries in one place. For dinner, I went with the slow cooker Cuban spice black beans chili. Hard to say, but tasty to eat. Because you said it in the morning and it's ready by the time Wednesday's beaten you down. My herb pork chili verde with Mexican pinto beans made the cut too. Compar food that actually tastes like someone made it for you, not like a diet.

11:30And for snacking, air fryer pickle chips with buttermilk ranch. And for those who don't know, I always have to be dessert. And from the hungry root grocery section, I stocked up on the pickled red onions and pasture raised hard boiled eggs to pile on literally everything. Every single item on this list is 100% worth it, consequences and all. Explore my digital cookbook on Hungry Root today and find recipes that are right for you. Go to HungryRoot.com slash the basement to access my cookbook, Gertie's Humpty Recipes. Okay, that hit my and at the same time, I pulled a picture that was made by a cosmology group. You can anybody can go find it. It's a circle that shows sort of a logarithmic plot across time and space to the edge of our universe. And it's a big circle and shows we're somewhere near the middle and you get it. And then you got the giant galaxies that when they were beginning to form and all this out at the edge of time when the big bang allegedly occurred.

12:32And there's nothing beyond that circle that you can see. And I looked at it and said, well, this is exactly the same world map as in Minecraft. There's an event horizon on our world map that we can't see beyond. And I said that the only thing that I know of like that that has an event horizon that traps all the information on the inside of it is a black hole. And then I realized what was Stephen Hawking actually wrote a paper with the guy named Beckenstein that black holes actually do emit a certain amount of radiation. But it's so tiny that the amount of radiation, it's such a long wavelength and so low energy, we can't build detectors to detect it. So it'll be decades before anybody can prove or disprove Hawking's concept, his hypothesis. But it matches with the math and everything. It's probably true. Probably. It's just we can't prove it for a long time. We get better building instruments. But I realized I said, well, if there's energy leaking out of this black hole, well, then

13:34that energy is a signature of what's inside it. And so you know how you can take your radio dial in your car back in the old days when you can turn it. You can see all the numbers there. That's the frequency spectrum of all the transmissions your radio can do, right? At in time, it sends a signal, but across the frequencies, you can see all these spots on the dial. Well, I thought, now what if the signal, if we look at its spectrum, if it tells us all the information that's inside coming from the inside of the black hole? And when I did certain types of math, it let me reproduce what we see is modern cosmology running backwards from the outside looking in. So in other words, we believe we have models of our universe, right, going this way, expanding outward from the big bang. Well, in a black hole, if you look at it from the outside in, times reversed. And it would be falling inward. And I thought, well, now that's an interesting corollary.

14:37And so I used all the math from Hawking and everything. And I ran a bunch and I told me a lot of it. It's such a long Python code that it took me forever. I had to vibe code a lot of it with the chat GVT because I'm not a super computer hacker, but you have to always go back and make sure the math is right because AI will give you fake stuff. But anyway, so once I ran the models over and over and convinced myself that the code was right, it showed that any black hole between five and ten solar masses should have similar cosmology as our universe, which suggests. Now, I'm not saying it proves it, but it suggests that we live in a black hole that's about somewhere between five and ten solar masses. And my model stopped somewhere about 7.2 solar masses. So Pplowski said that we would inherit the characteristics and spin of our parrot black hole. But what I can't square is the swarge child radius. Well, so the swarge child radius is only something you see from the outside.

15:40Oh, that's the event horizon. Right. So we don't, we can't go past it. We can't get out that. Well, explain swarge child for the folks listening. Yeah. So if you take a amount of mass and you squish it as small as you can make it, there is a radius around it, spherically, makes a, you know, virtual sphere, say geometric sphere around it. And at that radius is the race where light can't even escape the gravitational attraction. Even light will fall in right there. So there's no way, unless you maybe have warp drive that you could escape, or quantum tunneling, right? And so the interesting parallel though, AJ, when I was doing this was it led back to my simulation hypothesis presentation because like Elon Musk has said that he believed that he doesn't believe there's any chance that we're in the prime universe that we're in a nested simulation. What impeliance? A simulation within simulation within simulation. Sure.

16:40Well, look across our cosmology, how many black holes there are. And within our universe, we see black holes everywhere, right? And if we're in a black hole, that means that there are black holes in our black hole. And those black holes probably have black holes in those black holes. And those black holes will have holes in those black holes and it's turtles all the way down and all the way up. So could our universe be a black hole in someone else's sky? Yes. That's the point. It's turtles all the way down and all the way up. Because you worked at US Army Space and Missile Defense Command. Principal scientists of quantum entanglement and space technologies lab. What does the Army want to do? What's the Army that's around with quantum mechanics for? Well, many reasons. One is are there sensors that would use new new methods of quantum physics that would give you more information on battle assessment, battlefield awareness and so on. The other would be communications.

17:43If you can do quantum entanglement encrypted communications and what I was specifically working on as my main project at the time was to create a satellite experiment that would use quantum encrypted communications so that no one could eavesdrop or spoof or jam the comms to the battle groups on the ground. Didn't China just do this? You're thinking of the it spelled Misha. I think they pronounce something like Mosa or something like that is out of understand Chinese spelling and pronounce pronunciations. But they're talking about that that that experiment were yes. They did a what's called a QKD quantum key distribution experiment where they flew a satellite in 2016 2017 timeframe and they encrypted a video transmission with their quantum key and did it from one point on one part of the globe to another part which was really impressive and exciting. There are a lot of people who tried to debunk it and said that they didn't really achieve

18:44it but I was one of the teams to look at what they did and as far as I can tell it was functional and it's really interesting not tooting my own horn but myself and one of my first mentors Dr. Friend Cisco J. Dorte Frank Dorte. In I wrote a paper in 2015 that laser focus world nominated as one of the top 10 papers of the year and we showed that quantum communications would be the key for encrypted satellite communications and then within a year the Chinese did it and so at least we thought of it but they didn't do it and did it. So but my lab was a hybrid lab between University of Alabama Huntsville and the Army, Space and Missile Defense Command to get smart young folks in there working on it hands on building the experiment building the space hardware and we'd already flown one project on the International

19:45Space Station for 28 months and our second mission was to fly the quantum communications package and we got the first prototype built and then politics changed within the Army and some group said well where are they only group in the Army that's supposed to be doing that so they pulled our funding and put it there and we sort of limped along but I also was about the time that I got pulled into the UAP task force and so my focus was sort of reoriented. Well I understand how quantum encryption would work but why would entangle them be necessary. So that way you can over large distances create your key on both ends. Oh that's right. So you have your entangled photons right flipping up or down and if you measure over here whatever it is you know what the other one is supposed to be and so what happens is you this person

20:49gets a key and tangles it sends it over to the other person and then they send through a regular comms channel I use this basis this this measurement tool to measure it and so then they take that measurement tool and do some you know adjustment to it measure and whatever they get then it tells them what their key was and so if they don't have both of those the actual entangled piece and the classical comm piece then you can't get the key you can't open the door and so it's a perfect encryption and it's not breakable. Well there are some quantum hacks that have been discovered since but it's not I don't think it's really been done in application right it's theoretically possible in theory you should be able to break it I guess instantly right well but if you do break it the other guy knows that you broke it so if anybody eavesdrops on you you know that you've been eavesdropped on and so that's useful as well right yeah. And so that's what we were working on and it was it was an exciting project it was hard

21:52I mean it's one of those things that you know nobody had done yet so I mean other than the Chinese but nobody had done it in this country yet and the problem was the problem with this country is for the research funds you got so many people fighting and stabbing each other in the back over getting something done that we're our own worst enemy in that regard instead of saying oh these guys have done great work we should go look to what they've done and maybe we get funding do something similar or whatever instead that we better kill them and get their funding that's how it works in this country I mean it really does and our scientific community publication community it's all a big Spanish inquisition it's a mess. Were you studying quantum field theory and then decided to just write the textbook yourself that is exactly what I did what what what was wrong with with the syllabus that you had to write your own textbook as a student. Well so what happened was a noticed that quantum field theory was on the catalog for the

22:56University Alabama Huntsville physics department but it was never offered. Now went to the dean and said why one is it not offered you know I've been studying I'd want to take a official course in it and he said well we don't have anybody that wants to teach it and said I could but I don't have time and I said well say what let me see if I can create a syllabus for you and write the course and so I started putting the course work together I got several other textbooks looking at them like I read like stereo instructions you know instead of trying to explain it in a way that the student can understand it and so to teach myself you know quantum field theory I had I mean I had to learn it well enough that I could teach it to somebody else right explain it to the third grader so to speak right which is that's a hard one to do by the way who did you study to put that together. So there are there's several books the two main sets of books that I used were a book by cloudber and then one by landcaster and Blundel there was like something like a quantum

24:00physics for gifted amateur and one student friendly quantum field theory or something like that and then there was the standard textbooks that people have used and I looked at what I found in my tea coursework online and just everywhere I could find information I read I'd read everything about this particular piece of it and be like I don't understand what they were telling me there this one I kind of understand I don't and then I figure out after you know putting it all together a way to understand it and so I said well I kind of done all this work it might as well be a book and so I contacted the publisher who published my rocket science book and they said we would love to have a quantum field theory book first graduate course in that yeah we'd love to do that and so I spent the next year putting that book together did they would take your course well I've taught it okay the book just came out you know six months ago oh it did yeah okay yes so I just finished it not you know not long ago and I've already found a couple of errors in it so I'm going to do an updated edition or

25:01something to fix it but that's usually what happens you know textbooks you teach a class in it and the students find where you made a mistake sure and so I'm hoping that somebody adopts it and they'll get notes from professors and well there's a error here there's you know that's happening with my rocket science book too so yeah I get emails from fans and scientists say all the things I got wrong I heard I heard about that were you working on deco hearings when you were in the lab so a little bit one of the things that we were really interested in that I as me specifically was how how do we know or how does it know to deco here what what is the thing that triggers what is called the collapse of the wave function in quantum physics and there are a lot of people that debate it that people still think that or want to argue with you that no it's just statistics and and there never was this live and dead cat in the box but we've done experiments that suggest that it is a superposition of two states at once the cats alive and dead

26:06in the box at the same time but for how long so you know pinrows Roger pinrows this is what I was getting at has a theory called quantum gravity and it's not really tying gravity to quantum physics is just what he called it that based on how much mass an object has is how long it can stay in this superposition of unknown states right like the cats alive and dead but since the cat is so heavy it's like you know billions of a second or something a nanosecond or or even less that it could be influx but an electron for example whose mass is tiny like 10 to minus 31 kilograms or something that's so small you can't even imagine so many zeros you know that it can stay in that in that flux for almost forever unless something interacts with it and so where is the middle ground where there are big things big enough things that you can watch and see it happen and I think there were some experiments done with a micron size you know a millionth of a meter size nano tubes

27:11like carbon filaments yep like the size of a human hair something like that under certain field conditions and they've been able to see it perform at both states at once meaning that the cat is alive and dead in the box it's just a little bity box sure and a very cooperative cat I've I've always said I don't know how Schrodinger was going to get that cat in the box in the first place now cat will jump into a box if you leave it there open right but you can't put it in there put it in here if it cats do what they want to do so so tec marks says that decoherence is almost instant and warm wet environment yeah that's not really true is it though well that's the warm squishy brain idea so what you're getting at is quantum consciousness right and and pinrows and hammer holes or thinking about bird's eyes and quantum tunneling through all factory senses even before we get the consciousness well uh one of the things that that uh uh led me down this path was uh my first child was born in uh 2004 and when my wife was pregnant I remember watching all these

28:16videos about well at this stage the baby grows that this happens and this happens and I go how the hell do they know what why does it do that and and nobody knows why these things are happening they just they've just been they've watched them so long so long they say this is what usually happens it's just observation it's not knowledge right and and what's triggering these things to happen and how does it know and and the things happen in ways that seem faster than they should be able to happen they still don't really know no they don't have any idea no and and so now I think well if you get a splinter in your finger the immune response happens immediately and it's much faster than the ion channel to travel from your arm up to your brain and back down your brain and back to say sin stuff there right so could it be through a quantum connection through an interaction and that's what led me to start studying pin rows and hammer-offs orchestrated objective reduction and the and the warm squishy brain thing right and you know they're for you know people who

29:18haven't really paid attention to that the idea is that there are these proteins in your brain and there's more of these proteins in your brain than there are grains of sand on the beach or stars in the universe trip defend no they're called tubulins on the micro tubes yeah okay every time you swipe your cash app card there's leftover change a few cents here a few cents there normally that change just vanishes into rounding but cash app does something smarter with it roundups take that spare change and put it straight into Bitcoin no extra tap no daily decision no staring in a chart wondering if today's the day you buy a coffee spare change goes to Bitcoin you grab groceries spare change goes to Bitcoin it adds up in the background while you're living your life I like that it turns something I already do swiping a card into a habit that builds a position for me dollar cost averaging usually takes discipline this just takes a debit card you don't need a lump some either cash app let you buy Bitcoin in fractions so even a few cents becomes real ownership not just a rounding trick when you're buying Bitcoin over time the small cost add up that's why I

30:21like the cash app offers zero fees and zero spread on automatic Bitcoin purchases like auto invest roundups and paid in Bitcoin so if you're building a position over time more of each purchase goes into Bitcoin it's a straightforward way to add Bitcoin exposure without over complicating the process download cash app today visit our link in bio Bitcoin services by block ink see the Bitcoin disclosures at cash dot app slash legal slash podcast and the protein the tubulin protein puts a triptophenzy amino acid in those yeah okay go ahead uh so bin rows and hammer off high pot the hypothesize that uh these tubulin can trap an electron like the cat in the box right and and so that protein becomes what's called a qubit a quantum processor mm-hmm and that's what we're building right now at google at IBM you know that these quantum qubit processors and and where the programs that we've built quantum computers physically there are tens to hundreds of

31:23qubit processors there are like 10 to the 20 or so of them in your brain and so doesn't matter if they deco here quickly this is where tagmark didn't pay attention to engineering right so even if they do deco here uh so quickly there's 10 to the 20 something of them that's that's a good point and they could be deco hearing but they could be reinforced uh by the next one not being deco here yet and so on trip to them does reinforce these at well and there's other uh so here's the the the thought about that is their architecture in your brain to do error reduction that's why you would you know what when you do error reduction in computing and computing uh processing you add extra processors right guess what there are 10 to the 20 something of these processors in the brain and and so I believe that that's uh that that your brain is a quantum computer whether it was organically grown designed by uh you know the anna knock here or whatever you want I don't care uh

32:26but that's what's happening and and it's led it led me to write a book uh in the early 2000s called the science behind the secret and I was watching my wife that I were watching these when the secret came out was all popular no one I don't know there was people were on Oprah talking about it we all read it yeah we all read it and and and they started talking about well it's you know it's like the electromagnet of a meant uh electromagnetism and I'm like well that it's not right like electromagnetism causing in in magnets and electricity like things repel each other and you're saying like things stay and I said the only thing that does that I know is quantum physics because in quantum uh quantum wave functions will uh have constructive interference if the wave functions are similar and they'll be destructive if they're dissimilar so like things would stay and unlike things would go away and that started leading me to think well what they're saying in the secret isn't they're not physicists they're like self-help people philosophers whatever they don't understand what they're saying but they're saying it right right and so I started

33:28looking at the quantum physics of the human brain and how the universe works and it led me down this path of looking into ancient texts uh even more so than just for uh things like from ancient astronaut hypothesis right more than deeper than vandana can you know more of the William Henry sort of direction sure and uh and and it led me into really wanting to understand quantum physics at a level uh of of is there an observer effect that are we influencing every experiment everything that happens and and here's the thing that gets me is how do I have dreams of people I don't know in detail we all do yeah so and but you know them in the dream yes and I know these environments in the dream that I've never been to is it is am I that good at making up stuff or is my brain in uh idle mode and the noise floor is brought down because all my other systems are shut down

34:30and I'm uh connecting like a uh quantum uh transceiver to other quantum transmissions that are happening uh and and I'm decoding it and I'm like playing that game I'm part of that reality for a minute and I it led that leads me down the path that because we don't understand dreams cause we don't understand things like DMT uh because we don't understand that uh when people are hallucinating that their brain function actually goes into a coma like state instead of hyperactive that leads me to think that we're doing something more on the lines of detecting quantum information because you got to it's very sensitive to noise right and so if you brought the noise down then you're seeing things that aren't usually there or detecting things that aren't usually there or having experiences you don't usually experience it suggests to me that sounds like quantum physics what was that first experiment that first reading well no wait a minute so

35:32I mean I'd literally been there 30 minutes to an hour um that's it yeah I uh first time to visit Brandon Fugel the owner Flumeon on his helicopter we landed uh at the helipad we got out and had lunch and then walked up to the top of the mesa where they just put out a new uh sensor they're gonna show me the sensor and I and we and I carried a spectrum analyzer with me as we went and the other scientists there had one with him Eric Bard um and we were there up on top of the mesa we just got there and then suddenly my spectrum analyzer pegged out in the microwaves and I mean pegged out like not not popping popcorn on the inside but if you were popping popcorn and held your microwave detector right by the door that's how much microwaves I was detecting coming from everywhere wow and what was the frequency it was around 1.6 gigahertz and and that's you know that's right where GPS is that's where space to uh ground is 1575 and heredium is 161 yep that's a busy frequency that is a very bit it's all spaced

36:35the ground ground space kind of stuff and it was pegged pegged and it was coming out of the ground well is it I don't know I mean I looked for it I was like I was like scratching my head running around crazy like uh you know a chicken with his head cut off not not understanding what's going on I was literally like a cockroach in a microwave running around yeah I was running like trying to figure out what was going on well you drilled you dug what you what's down there don't know we so we uh we drilled in a spot where uh ground penetrating radar told us there was some big anomaly in there and uh when we we hit something and we put pressure against it uh 8,000 pounds of pressure against it for like minutes many minutes and you think a drill bit would have got hiding it cooled off which is odd the friction would have been enormous unless it were frictionless odd impossible impossible right right unless it were frictionless or something uh but what we found in the spoils pile

37:36when we pulled uh pulled the drill bit out uh were these pieces of metallic fragments and surround they were ceramic like and when we went and had them analyzed they were they had been centered and built in a blast furnace in a way that uh the the experts in the material in the uh uh metal uh metallurgy lab said were like tiles on the space shuttle that uh are used for reentry or their own starship now right they use the same kind of tiles um it's not the exact chemical makeup but were built or manufactured in the same way so there's something manufactured inside this mason it was this was 377 feet in and 78 75 feet I think down was it's an alloy uh it's a mixture it was a compound of some of it was a compound so it was made it was made yes what was the what were the metals of the components uh well so it had a little bit of uh aluminum in it oh what's really interesting is it had a mixture of 50% aluminum and 50% ironed in some

38:40of the metal fragments which we don't do that we don't mix 50 50 aluminum and iron no why why what is what is that where did that come from and then the ceramic like fragments had uh all sorts of materials in it like uh there was some thorium there was uh there was uh uh so that's radioactive yeah it was very low level it was very very very low level it was uh uh what else was in it there was of course there was a lot of carbon there there was a little bit of aluminum there was it was almost like aluminum cutting blades it was almost that kind of material or I originally take said it was kind of like a break pad you know right now I thought somebody's buried a car down in there right but it wasn't exactly a break pad right it was more like it was hard on the outside and more fragile on the inside uh and we took it and put it in an electron microscope at the university uh uh Utah Valley University in the physics department there and when we hit it with electron beams it would open up and we turned the electron beams off it

39:41would close back up and exactly the same configuration it did it every time like like self healing metal well that's what we thought it was we thought we were blowing holes in it first and it was and it was healing itself but it uh it appeared to be more like an umbrella that it was opening and closing or a pom-pom when you put it in a uh static electric field you how it or your hair will stand up and then it will go back down it seemed more like that uh but it's it we're still to a lot more experimentation on that to figure that out and some of the metal fragments we found were in layers it had the iron and aluminum mixture as the middle the Oreo part and then the cookie part was on one side was almost pure tealurium and the other side was almost pure eropium and that's really similar to how we build solar panels and that's really hard also you know how did that get inside this mesa you know 30 something at the maximum the maximum height or the closest to the surface that our holes got to was 38 feet down with the the materials we believe came out around

40:4678 feet 75 feet down and 370 something feet in how big is this object according to the GPR um well it's like to 20 meters wide and and it could be as much as you know 50 meters like a cigar shape it's cigar shape yeah it looks it what it would tell you what it looks like in their smaller pieces all around it it literally looks like like an airplane crash debris field it literally looks like something crashed into the mesa and there's pieces spread out in there uh I mean and here's the most bizarre thing um we were looking at the material uh the metal fragment and from the elemental analysis of it uh the night we found it we using equipment we had on a ranch and uh I said well it's not a meteor fragment and uh the Eric Bard said well the only thing it's missing to be a meteor would be to have some nickel in it the next morning oh no the archaeologist

41:49pulled out of the same spot 370 something feet in 70 something feet down a 1964 nickel uh what is going on in the man 1964 nickel get inside the mesa it can't well so we went uh so I I just freaked me out right our archaeologist said well that means there was a dig here so what do you mean he said oh it's a standard protocol the archaeologists are trained that when you finish a dig you drop a coin from that year in the dig so future archaeologists will know there was a dig here and he said I'll bet you anything there was a dig here in 1964 so I went and got man it man uh the other guys we went and got every publicly available uh aerial photograph of the property all the way from 1935 and what's interesting is from 1963 to 1968 the uh 63 is the last one and then 69 is the next one there are no images from 64 to 68 that are available publicly none

42:50I don't like it man none can't be and and and so it's it's really bizarre that uh that that something happened there and and it's been it's been covered and we wonder there's this myth of people say bad things happen to you if you dig on skin walker ranch makes me wonder if it was more of a non disclosure agreement saying bad things will happen to you if you dig on skin walker ranch it sounds like it um I mean we were talking earlier I said it wasn't really watch the show because I thought it was like another oak island thing and you're like oh man it's all real what we're doing there yeah what did you find on the ranch that that compelled you to go to Washington and get in the skiff yeah so well that first day when um uh I started big detecting these microwaves they were they were at levels that would be in violation of FCC regulations right all I guess is to could jam the satellites yes oh so that and I was like this is somebody's doing something nefarious is what I thought I thought it was it Russians is it Chinese is it some kid

43:52doing something stupid but somebody that'll feel disruption if you could oh lord yeah you and none of our GPS stuff would work right so I'm thinking oh somebody's jamming GPS and and why no guiding ordinance well think about airplanes landing at an airport right I really was kind of freaking me out so I went to my uh I had security clearance you know my day job was still with the army and I went and told our security guys they said well I don't know what to do with that let me see I think call around see who you need to talk to and they kept handing me off up the food chain and at the same time one of our other guys uh that was there with me that day uh one of the scientists on the team he had contacted some contacts and they kept doing the same going up trying to figure we're and eventually we got handed off to well you need to have a meeting with these people in the Pentagon and so all right so I flew up to the Pentagon and briefed them on all the data we were going to skiff and these two guys come in and uh I noticed that one of them had a copy of my alien invasion book which is a serious book I wrote in uh 2003 uh with one of my mentors in the intelligence community Dr. Bob Bone we were at a three letter organization meeting and uh

44:58a serious book called alien invasion yes it's a textbook on how we would defend the planet and what we should be doing to prepare okay uh so yeah we were in that yeah we were in this meeting is after you know two years after 9-11 we're in deep in operation and a condo all that stuff's going on and so this is a pop secret meeting on how to come up with clever ways to understand asymmetric warfare and all this stuff right you know we were on the high side of course the the rackies and the fganes and all those were on the low side so we're uh we're in this meeting and uh this three star general makes this comment like wow we need to put ourselves in our enemy shoes and walk a mile in them so we can understand how to think like them and I laughed and uh and at this time I was you laughed out loud yes yeah at this time I was like a GS 14 equivalent and uh uh and this was a three star and and and and he got her up you know and and and my boss uh my mentor just he said he's like oh what what's I know what's coming now but our boss was a uh a one-star

46:00equivalent in the three letter organization and uh and he kind of looked at me like I don't know if you should say anything but you know you have something to say and I said well sir uh our poor people have x boxes and two TVs and a car in the driveway and they have a hundred dollar shoes it's unlikely that they'll ever be able to understand these these people that were fighting because they have a completely different world they live in and only the way americans would ever be on the low side of asymmetric war was if we were invaded by aliens I was doing a typical southern thing explaining by exaggeration well the general just kind of rolled his eyes and moved on so after the meeting or are at a break in the meeting we're in the in the in the break room and I'm getting a soft drink or whatever and um and and and the three letter boss comes up to me three letter organization boss comes up to me he says what would we do if we were invaded by aliens that's my next question and and uh and I said we'd probably die oh no and he said well do we have a plan

47:05and I say well I think you would know more about that than I he said well why don't you two look and he just talked to me in my mentor and said why don't you two look and see what you can come up with and so we spent the next year studying warfare warfare models uh intelligence models technologies and it led us to uh we kind of threw together this book on all the things that we'd studied and of course we briefed it at other levels but we but we asked them can we publish this as a book and we sure we don't care you know and uh so we did and it's interesting on the cover of the book the first version of it uh the chief scientist of the uh in our row actually put on there that it was it was fascinating roll matter pretty good run until it didn't emperor is kept shaving the silver out of their coins to stretch the treasury a denarius that was almost pure silver under a gussess was less than 5% silver two centuries later same coin a fraction of the metal prices tripled then tripped again people stopped trusting the money and started hoarding

48:06anything real land grain silver they can hold that's not a metaphor that's just what happened two thousand years later the playbooks the same just with the printing press instead of the mid you don't need a currency to be silver anymore for it to get diluted you just need more of it printed the mechanism's different the outcome for regular savers hasn't changed much golden crest metals helps people move part of a 401k or IRA into physical gold and silver the stuff that doesn't get diluted tax and penalty free no pressure no hard sell just information and right now they're running a bonus up to twenty five thousand dollars in free silver on qualifying purchases visit golden crest metals dot com slash the y files or text the word files to metals that six three eight to five golden crest metals dot com slash the y files or text the word files to metals to receive a free investor kit a free portfolio review with no obligation or hard sell and on qualifying purchases up to twenty five thousand dollars in both a silver

49:08do sit there and go maybe there's something smaller than the plank number yeah for sure absolutely really the plank number is widely misunderstood okay people talk about the plank scale yes like it's you know the resolution of the universe you know what is the plank scale you take a bunch of constants you multiply them together you get a distance that's the plank scale it's like ten to the minus thirty five meters what's true about the plank scale which is often said is we can't know anything smaller than ten to the minus thirty five meters with our current understanding of physics ah okay so what happens there is that we have two pillars of physics quantum mechanics which describes even little particles and how things move and general relativity which describes gravity and space and all that stuff mostly they they don't intersect because you're talking about big stuff for relativity or small stuff for quantum mechanics right right but at ten to the minus thirty five meters you need both of them and they're those two theories we don't know how to get them to play well together like there's no theory of quantum

50:10gravity that makes them come together in harmony they disagree they disagree by the nature space by the nature of time about everything so we have these two pillars of physics and mostly they're fine but sometimes they overlap and at ten to the minus thirty five meters we don't know how to proceed that doesn't mean that there's no explanation for what happens below ten to the minus thirty five meters or that there can't ever be it's just like the current horizon of our understanding so you see people say like that's the pixel size of the universe yes more like the limit beyond which we cannot predict with our current theories but tomorrow somebody makes drink theory work or comes up with a new theory of quantum gravity that predicts past that point um now we can see deeper into the history of the universe and into the very very tiny so it's not a fundamental limit at all of our understanding it's a limit of our current theories which of course are not the final story is that um a a common opinion among physicists or you because i've i've heard you say that we only

51:13understand five percent of physics i don't know if every physicist likes that number but in that ninety five percent is unified field theory in there do you i mean do your gut yeah so there's a couple of questions there i think that almost every physicist sees that the same way but there's often a gap between the way physicists see their work and the way the public understands it you know the way like mass is misunderstood and black holes are misunderstood the big bang is widely misunderstood and misexplained so i think that almost every physicist would agree with me that the Planck scale is not a fundamental limit to our possibility of understanding um i think that's pretty widely understood inside physics though in popular science it's not often described and it frustrates me that there's this gap between our what physics has revealed about the universe and how scientists think about and talk about it and how it's described and understood in popular science um and that's unfortunate because i want people to know what is the real story what are scientists thinking uh and and i respect that sometimes that has to be translated and sometimes

52:17those translations go wrong for good reasons and good intentions absolutely it's hard to translate it but when there's that persistent gap i feel like that's unfortunate because people are being not intentionally misled but they're misunderstanding what we know and what we don't that's why i encourage everybody to check out your podcast because you you you and Kelly do a great job of of making this accessible you all it's also super fun like you guys are funny yeah Kelly is a great friend of mine she's a great scientist and it's just two people talking about science and we talk about topics that she understands and so i'm learning about biology and history of cholera and we talk about stuff that i understand and so she's learning about particles and dark matter in space and then listeners get to learn about you know huge variety of topics in science and i hope have a good time at the same time so to get beyond to get smaller than plank is there an experimental way to do that i don't know look you know how they say there's no stupid

53:22questions today you're gonna get a lot of those no there are no stupid questions it's a great question it's an important question because you know physics has more than one branch to it it's got the theoretical side like how could the universe work and that's really important and often we feel like the answers are there but it's also got the experimental side which is going out there to just ask the universe hey show us how you work but you know that requires efforts it requires cleverness sometimes people think all the smart guys are in theory right but the experimentalists have a different kind of cleverness because they have to force the universe to reveal the answers you can't just sit on a rock and like think your way to the understanding the universe the Greeks tried that right didn't make a lot of progress right you got to force the universe to reveal which means coming up with clever situations where if the answer is A or B you'll get a different outcome right that's the whole idea of experimental physics is like how do we force the universe to show us but we're limited with our tools right and the frustrating thing about understanding

54:23general relativity and quantum quantum mechanics is that mostly it's hard to bring them near each other so if we could see inside a black hole we would know the answer to how do you unify general relativity and quantum gravity and quantum mechanics we can't see inside a black hole too bad if we could see the early universe we could as well because the early universe had a stage where things were denser than the plank scale the plank scale you can express as a distance or as a temperature and so things were hotter than the plank temperature and a time as well yeah yeah absolutely so when you say the early universe we know that big bang acceleration everything happens are you talking about that first femptosecond like before the what happened right there right exactly so this is all related to what we were talking about earlier and I think the big bang is deeply misunderstood so let's be very careful what we mean when we say the big bang mean by like a certain time so you know we know the universe is vast and it's pretty cold and

55:26it's pretty dilute but we look back in time by looking out into space and seeing how things looked earlier we see it was denser so the universe is less dense now it's more dense in the past you rewind the clock what happens things get denser and denser and denser and denser and our theories work really really well predicting things when they get all the way up to a certain temperature or a certain density and that's the plank scale that's the plank temperature that's the big bang is the expansion of the universe from that plank scale density which and going earlier that is another thing from that plank scale density up till now that's the big bang the big bang is widely misunderstood as the universe began as a point in space and it exploded out into existing space that's what most people's impression of the big bang is and that's basically totally wrong there widely described that way of course it's wrong because the big bang doesn't claim to just explain the origins of the universe it's not the beginning of time it says look we understand from this point forward

56:29how the universe expanded and cooled before that big question mark we don't know yet that's part is speculative and there's lots of theories there we can dig into but that part we don't know so everything from plank scale forward is the big bang before that question mark so we don't know how the universe began the big bang does not claim how the universe began it does not it's agnostic on that question and the other thing people don't understand is there was never a point in empty space the big bang was everywhere the whole universe was always filled with stuff wait hold on hold on the whole universe is all the universe was there and I have to put there in quotes before the big bang so we don't know where all the stuff came from right there's some hot dense date 13.8 billion years ago unexplained I'm singing the theme now to big bang theory okay that the universe then expanded and became more dilute less dense right so the big bang is

57:31about density right now if the universe is infinite today and we don't know but let's say that it is then it was infinite then because you can't go from a finite universe to an infinite universe right so that means if we start with an infinite universe that's big and not very dense and we rewind the clock to an infinite universe that's dense it's an infinite universe filled with infinite matter it's an infinite big bang the big bang was everywhere it was not an explosion of a point out into empty space there was no empty space it's just all the space is already filled with stuff now people listening are gonna be like okay but where did that stuff come from right you can't just say we don't know and we're not just saying we don't know we're saying the big bang doesn't explain that it's not an infinitely dense point which exploded out into space lots of theories about where that stuff came from inflation etc but we don't know if there was a beginning we don't know if those goes on forever backwards in time we don't know what happened there and so when I say you know

58:35maybe the early universe can help us understand how to bring general relativity in harmony with quantum mechanics I say that we could just watch it you know if we can look and see what happened before the moment of the plank density then we could know and so that's hard right experimentally that's very very challenge of course I'm good I've heard everything from quantum foam to yeah in the beginning yeah so I so we're I mean if you if you had to we have to we're gonna do a lot of speculation today what what where do you go what where do you lean yeah well we're gonna know we're gonna figure it out we are we absolutely are I had confidence look humans are clever right and when we want to know when we are driven by our curiosity we're gonna figure this stuff out and anybody anytime somebody tells you this is impossible to figure out like that just means we haven't been smart enough yet or the right kid hasn't been inspired yet and and that's you know one reason why I want people to understand what we don't know about science because there's some kid out there

59:36who's thinking oh science is mostly figured out I'm gonna go and be a rock star instead and like no I want that genius to crack these problems to be inspired by the mysteries but you know we have a path forward already like the earliest thing we've seen in the universe is not from T equals zero the moment of plank density it's like 400,000 years later that's when the universe became transparent universe was hot and dense like the center of the sun so if you made a photon it just got reabsorbed right right like if you turn on a flashlight in the center of the sun it's not the beam is not gonna get to earth right the sun is opaque the universe was opaque and then it became transparent and light created right at that moment when the universe became transparent is still around we can see it incredibly powerful scientifically tells us about the early universe and proves that it was dark matter already back then amazing but that's like 400,000 years after the point we're interested in how do we go deeper so the key is that the universe was opaque to light before

1:00:38that point right but you know the universe can be transparent to other stuff for example new treno's new treno's can pass right through the earth you know you their new treno's passing through my fingers right now like a trillion every second passed through my fingernails so the can they exceed the speed of light they cannot they cannot nothing cannot nothing can exceed the speed of light and they have a tiny little bit of mass so they move just below the speed of light okay yeah but they were flying around the early universe and the universe was transparent to new treno's just like a second after this plank moment so if we could see new treno's from the very early universe we could see 400,000 years earlier than we've ever seen before we could see the structure the universe the shape of the universe what was going on was it foamy was it smoothed were there purple dragons we don't know that's exploration right we have ideas we have theories we can use you know our ideas to figure it out but the best part of science is when you're surprised yes when you ask the universe something and the answer is something nobody expected those are the

1:01:42reasons I got into science for those moments right when you're like what that's the way it works nobody expected that right what's it like at Sir what I mean you go in you got your your thermos you punch your clock I mean like we all know what it is but what's like to just to be there and spend a day there it is so exciting it is the center of the world for particle physics it's like the nerd capital of the world everybody is there and they're buzzing with excitement you know when the machine is running you never know what day is going to be the day you make a discovery right every day could be like look what we saw in the data look what the universe delivered something I think a lot of people don't understand about the collisions that's certain is that we do the same experiment over and over again right it's two particles very high energy smashing against each other and every time we do it every 24 nanoseconds the universe decides what comes out

1:02:43average 24 nanoseconds 24 nanoseconds there's a collision okay and quantum mechanics tells you that you can do the same experiment twice and get two different outcomes I mean essentially infinitely and get all they get all the out that's right that's exactly it we don't know what the universe can do but if we do the same experiment over and over again eventually everything it can do is reveal to us and that's what we want to know is like what can happen when you smash two protons together if you're thinking of protons is like little billiard balls and you think well I smash them together then they're going to bounce off at a certain angle and the initial state determines the final state that's classical physics the initial state determines the final state take the same shot and pull over and over again if you're really precise you get exactly the same outcome but quantum mechanics says what's predicted what's determined is not the outcome but the probability of various outcome right and that's how we explore the universe with collisions is that you know we're looking for things that are really really rare once a trillion once a quadrillion

1:03:44collisions and you do enough collisions eventually the universe will show you the rarest of rare things that it can make you know what's on its secret menu of what it can do the things that I want to know like what is the smallest thing what is everything made out of what is the heaviest thing and so it's exciting to be at CERN it's also really fun like the cafeteria CERN is filled with people from all over the world you hear like Italian and English and Japanese and Romanian people eating all sorts of weird foods and probably the best summer of my life I spent as a student at CERN was very very young really yeah hanging out with a bunch of Italians who taught me Italian and how to cook and bake and make pizza and you know drinking with the checks and it's it's just a wonderful wonderful place it's open it's collaborative you know CERN was built after World World War 2 is an effort to like let's connect scientists from around the world so we're all humanizing each other and we're not like building weapons of mass destruction and we're getting each other right it's all about peace and science and harmony and you know this argument for sure and you also

1:04:51it's fun to learn how different people argue you know when somebody from Italy tells you know it means something different from when somebody from Japan tells you know and you learn these things um and it's fun to hear people argue in English and all sorts of different accents you know it's fun to argue with people about like where do you put a comma in this paper you know don't get my life started on the outter comma well we have 5,000 authors in every paper which means right everybody gets to weigh in on the comma so comma goes in the comma goes out the comma goes in the comma goes out it's comical you know you know um but it's a lot of fun it's really exciting every time I go to Surn I'm just re-invigorated by the possibilities you know what we can learn about the universe it's it's incredible to me that we we know how to find the secrets of the universe we just have to go do it you know if if you gave me a hundred billion dollars I could build you a collider that would reveal secrets of the universe we just have to do it we just have to decide we built new space telescopes we would see things in the early universe that would shock us would

1:05:53blow our minds it's happened with every time we build a telescope we see something that goes every time right and these things are cheap I mean on the scale of countries and jis so we just have to decide to do it and the universe is there and waiting for us to decide we want to know its secrets but Daniel if we build all these colliders how do we fund our wars I mean how do we we have to we have to choose oh my goodness I don't think we have to choose actually I don't think we have to I think there's a lot of zero sum game agree every dollar we spend on science comes back to us twofold tenfold a thousandfold it's a good investment I believe in America I believe in humanity I believe in people I believe in smarts we should invest in ourselves by spending money on basic research it's the best investment you can make honestly and the more we learn about the universe and I don't mean that as just as a fortune-cook game I mean more we actually learn the fewer conflicts we're going to have yeah yeah I hope so I think I hope that's true I mean I'm not a politician and I'm not a sociologist but I do think that

1:06:59understanding the universe is something that brings us all together yes all curious we all want to know answers and I've worked with people from I think 172 different countries and we're all just people we all just curious about the universe right yep it definitely brings us together how much data are we talking about every 24 nanoseconds every 24 nanoseconds we read out 100 million channels of data about the collision wow and so it's an enormous tsunami of data so much that we have to throw most of it away why do you throw it away because you already know what it is or because it's too much to ever analyze like we couldn't effectively store it to tape and and search it and also most of it's boring like most of what happens when you collide protons is they bounce off each other and state protons yon we see 9 million times so we're interested in the rare stuff so we have a filter the very very early stage that decides keep it or kill it and that makes downstream analysis much more efficient because you don't have to search through all the boring stuff to find

1:08:00the interesting stuff but it means also we have to be smart about what we're keeping and what we're killing that's actually what my team works on and I found that super fun you have to make this super fast decision and you don't have a lot of time to do a lot of really fancy calculations it's killer to keep it every 24 nanoseconds right so high speed computing I thought was a really fun challenge how do you know you're not throwing out the next Nobel Prize yeah I mean if we're talking I'm assuming you're using machine learning or AI of some kind well the very first stage is very simple okay and then it gets more complex and we're definitely using machine learning and AI we don't know that we're not throwing away some you know treasure out with the garbage but we do have some filters that just randomly select events let's just keep you know one out of a thousand randomly so that if there's something crazy that we didn't expect we'll probably find it there but we can't we just can't keep all of it it's just too much data we're talking about petabytes

1:09:02and petabytes every day it's insane how much data we produce how do you how do you train machine learning if you don't know what you're looking for yeah this is a big question in machine learning and more broadly in artificial intelligence it's a whole field called anomaly detection okay how do you find something that's out of the ordinary if you don't know what you're looking for because that's what I want right I want to find the big surprise the the thing that makes us go what is that and so we have techniques there anomaly detection says well let's learn to describe what's expected and then we'll think about anything that's different from that and so you train machine learning you give it a bunch of examples say here's the kind of thing we're expecting figure out how to think about that so that if we give you something you haven't seen before you can flag it and so what machine learning does is for example it takes all the things that that you don't or that you aren't interested in and it learns to like transform that into some internal mathematical

1:10:07space and then transform it back and it becomes really good at doing that for the kind of things you've been training it for and then with something new and weird comes then that transformation fails it's like well I don't know how to transform this there and back and so it's just an example but there's lots of ways that you can train machine learning to flag something unusual but it's hard and you never really know if there's something there that you've missed it's doesn't it's got to bother you a little bit right like keeps me up at night and we might have thrown out the one thing we needed but we don't know but that's always the case because we always have to make decisions about what kind of thing to look for you know give you another example when we analyze our data we're looking for particles that come out of the collision and we expect particles to move in a certain way because they have electromagnetic charge and they have a magnetic field and we can use our physics to say okay particles always move in this particular path a helical path and if you look at like pictures of collisions

1:11:10you see particles whizzing out in these spirals right so spirals are everywhere and most of our software that looks or particles looks for spirals because we expect everything to move in the spiral so is that what you're mostly analyzing is just the paths of the particles from the collision that's yeah exactly because the thing we're looking for like the Higgs boson or something else new it only lasts very very briefly like 10 to the minus 23 seconds so you never see it directly you see what it turns into so we like see these spirals we see the particles and we say okay that looks like there was a Higgs boson there but it's not like I can say oh here's a Higgs or here's a handful of them or I got a bunch of them in a box right right we can only say that they're probably were there based on the path of these particles so figuring out the path of these particles is important but we only tend to look for these spirals because that's what we know how to look for so a couple of years ago my team was like well could we look for other things could we look for things that are moving in some weird unexpected way and we've been training machine learning algorithms to do just

1:12:11that to look for particles that don't move as a spiral that will move in some new weird way and it's funny because it's hard for computers to find that but if I showed you one if I like found a collision that led to something which moved in a weird way your eyes we'd be like oh that's something what's that right that's weird our eyes are very very good at seeing patterns but I can't like print out collisions every 24 nanoseconds and put them in front of my students be like find me the weird ones right we have to use computers that's because we need them because they're much more effective at this high speed high volume data analysis and so we're developing these algorithms to look for new weird non-spiral paths and we're hoping when we run them on the data that they'll they'll spit out something but like hey Daniel look at this one and then we'll get to see something exciting so I'm working hard to try to sort of push the boundaries of what we can discover but you never know what you're missing right is there a mathematical model that shows that

1:13:11the particle could move differently or are you violating because you're you're you're a row you're a maverick yeah is there a model that allows for that there are a few models that do predict that to move that predict weird paths for example a magnetic model pole particle that has like just a north or just a south yes but my hope is that we find something that nobody predicted right I'm going to make the discovery that violates people's assumptions that that makes them go what that's impossible that means we're gonna have to tear up everything we knew and like yeah that's the whole idea right so yeah there are some predictions but I'm not a fan of any of them and I'm hoping we discover something that doesn't match to any predictions so it'd be much more fun have you ever found anything that maybe isn't a huge discovery but made you go whoa I didn't see that coming have you been surprised anything in the data yet we had a moment in the data about 10 years ago when we thought we had a discovery we were looking at events and we saw a bump right and a bump is how

1:14:17you make a discovery little pile of collisions and all of very very similar and it was in a place we didn't expect at all and I had tingles I was like oh my gosh is this have we have we done it and we spent six months cross checking it is there a mistake did we miscalculate something every biasing ourselves somehow and there was nothing we could do to make this bump go away and I started to believe I saw oh my gosh and you know this is big stuff right we could be discovering some of the changes are understanding of the universe oh yes I started to think like wow this is you know we're making history here but the problem is that we look at a lot of data and so when you look at you know 10,000 different distributions of data occasionally you're going to see one that looks weird just like if you try you know flipping a coin 10 times and you do that a thousand times you're going to get some weird ones right where you get lots and lots of heads so we didn't know if we just like sifted through so many examples of data that we were just picking out the weirdest one

1:15:19so we had to wait for note for more fresh data so we ran the collider a few more you know a couple more months and waited and then the bump went away oh it was just a random fluctuation unfortunately now something in my gut tells me a random fluctuation is not a thing yeah it's not a thing it's just you know it's everything that happens that comes out of the collider is random and sometimes they pile up in a weird unusual way just like sometimes you know you flip a coin four or five times you get four or five heads it's sure right and that's what happened this time so it was exciting but it wasn't anything it was disappointing and you know we haven't discovered anything of the large agent collider since the Higgs boson we saw the Higgs in 2012 we've been looking ever since but it's exploration just like when NASA lands on Mars and since a new rover they don't know are we gonna find you know something weird under a rock or is it just gonna be dust and rubble its exploration

1:16:21so I heard you say um is the Higgs real when nobody's looking I thought that was um so funny can you retell the story and kind of tell us why is Higgs important everyone knows that God particle Higgs boson everyone's heard of that good luck trying to explain it you know we don't know what that is or why it's important and that statement when nobody's looking that's wild yeah yes so you know Higgs boson huge advance in particle physics we discovered in 2012 I was predicted 50 years earlier and I love this story because it shows you the power of mathematics like this was predicted based just on mathematical symmetry you know Peter Higgs is looking at the way the forces are and he's wondering like we'll look electromagnetism is so similar to the weak force but also very very different like why if the structures are mathematically so similar

1:17:22why is the photon have no mass it could travel at light speed and the W and the Z boson really massive very slow very short range why is there a difference here why is the symmetry broken and he was looking for a way for that symmetry to break and like what would require that to happen and so well you know this actually would all work out perfectly if there was one more particle out there one more field and so you add that one piece and suddenly everything makes sense and that's cool but it's it's a math game right it says well look the math is nicer in this scenario um but is it real the question and it's another example of like math leading us to discoveries because it turns out it is real it is how the universe keeps the photon from getting mass and getting the W and the Z to have mass and and that's incredible because it tells you that like there's real mathematics at the heart of the universe where you know it supports that argument I can also make the other argument we're gonna talk about it but um you know what is the Higgs boson in the end it's the thing that

1:18:26that tells you that the particles we see are are not the universe is fundamental particles like you look at an electron we measure an electron in the lab what are we interacting with what are we measuring it's not just a pure electron it's an electron bound up with Higgs bosons okay because an electron just moving through the universe would have no mass it would move it light to be just like a photon does but in a universe with the Higgs boson in it it can't do that every step along the way there's a Higgs field that's interacting with that electron you know it's like you you trying to walk through a crowd of people and they're all like AJ AJ AJ comes kind of stop talk to me right the same way you know we say that photons when they move through a material don't move at the speed of light right it's a little bit of a slate of hand because there's no time at which like there's a photon moving slower than the speed of light it's an effective description we say light is moving through the material as if it was moving slower than the speed of light what's

1:19:31really happening is you know it's being absorbed and emitted absorbed and emitted it's interacting with the material and so that changes effectively how a photon moves there's no scenario in which the photon is actually moving slower than the speed of light the same way an electron moving through the universe it would move at light speed and have no mass but it interacts with the Higgs boson and so we step back and we say well in a real electron the thing we measure in the laboratory is this thing this electron that's interacting with the Higgs is an effective description and so like a pure electron is this theoretical thing we never see the real electron is actually this like buzzing interplay between two fields the electron field and the Higgs field which are very tightly coupled so that's why electrons that we measure have mass they don't really have mass in a pure sense but the electron we interact with that we see in the laboratory that is used to build up me and you is this effective description in what's really happening is this an electron

1:20:31field and a Higgs field tightly bound together and so that explains why electrons have mass and why w's and z's have mass and that's what was important about the Higgs boson but it's part of our model it's our explanation for what we see out there in the universe it's powerful because it describes future experiments it describes what we see it accommodates the universe the question though is the Higgs boson real that's a different question that asks you know is it the only way to describe the universe is it there when nobody's looking what do you mean by that I mean this is not a wave function collapse argument is it I mean is the Higgs boson the map or is it the territory when we describe what's going to happen out there we use the Higgs boson when the universe decides what to do what's going to happen in the universe is it using the Higgs boson or is there something

1:21:35else going on in the universe is true description of reality right is this our effective description that works really well or is it reality itself beyond our ability to to probe it and to think about it ask questions and and this is a hard question to grapple with because it's not a science question the philosophy question I mean is the Higgs boson real beyond our ability to test it beyond our ability to do experiments because obviously the experiments match up with the theory sure so scientifically yes it's part of our theory it works that's all good I mean is it there beyond that sense and in some deeper philosophical sense that you can't probe with experiments but a more concrete way to ask that question is like well are there aliens out there doing science building up their own explanation from the universe do they have a Higgs boson in their theory or have they found some other way to describe the same set of phenomena that they observe in their particle

1:22:37colliders right is there an alien Higgs you know eating haggis and and doing all that stuff or is there is there not you know are there possibly other explanations because if there are that means that our explanation isn't necessarily true it could just be a map it's not necessarily the fundamental reality so doesn't there have to be more because of dark matter and dark energy so because we have no we don't know what that is right that's the placeholder yeah is that yeah does that tie into Higgs is that maybe it's found in there somewhere maybe the aliens don't know what Higgs is but they they their dark matter energy is some other field yeah a lot of really fascinating ideas there it's true that we don't know what dark matter is we can't explain it we don't know if it's made out of particles and what those particles are etc etc that doesn't invalidate what we've learned about the universe right every experiment we've done about atoms our theory there works and you know it might not be fundamentally true it might be one of many options but that doesn't

1:23:43make it wrong it means it might have the wrong context it means that you know the way Newton's theory worked for all the experiments they could do in their day but you know it wasn't the true story of the universe in a broader context Einstein's description is better though who knows Einstein is right we may one day replace our theory of Higgs with something else right and that doesn't mean that Higgs was wrong it just means that you know it works under these circumstances but when you replace it with something else you also sometimes get your replace like the the backdrop the story about what's happening like think about what happens when you replace Newton with Einstein you don't just get better predictions for mercury and details about high speed stuff you tell a different story about gravity that's true right what happens when somebody jumps off a building Newton says there's an acceleration right gravity is a force there's an acceleration of the person who's coming down to earth Einstein says no no no first new jumps off a building experiences

1:24:49no acceleration and it's kind of right because if you took a scale with you you jumped off a building and you put that scale under your feet what would you measure nothing nothing zero that scale is an accelerometer right zero you feel no acceleration as you jump off a building why does it then seem like you're accelerating because the earth is accelerating upwards towards you so Einstein says you measure an acceleration because you on the surface of the earth are in an accelerating frame so we can dig into that more if you like but the point is you don't just replace Newton with Einstein you tell a different story about reality and so it's possible someday in the future we have a different theory of particles that doesn't include the Higgs and we're telling a different story the story I told you about electrons moving to the universe with Higgs's and whatever somebody on a future podcast could be telling a very different story about reality so absolutely and dark matter could be the key you know one thing we don't know about dark matter is where does it

1:25:52get its mass the electron gets its mass from the Higgs right but anything that gets its mass from the Higgs has to have a weak interaction has to interact via the weak force and so far it seems like dark matter doesn't feel the weak force which means it probably does not get its mass from the Higgs right which means is there a dark Higgs is there another particle that gives mass to dark matter maybe and you know dark matter there's more dark matter than normal matter right so if there's a dark Higgs then it's the dominant way you get mass in the universe and our Higgs is just like a little bit of the story right and so that could really help us understand like the bigger picture how particles get get mass in the whole context so you know I don't want people to go away thinking oh our theory the universe is wrong it describes what we've seen and it works really really well but philosophically we have no proof that it's the only description the unique description and we couldn't one day replace it with something better and deeper that works in a broader context to

1:26:55describe experiments we haven't done yet can you tell me about how we can turn every cell phone on earth into a cosmic ray detector yeah um this is great mystery in cosmic ray physics cosmic rays as fancining for just like particles coming at the earth you think of space is empty but it's actually filled with particles right very very low density compared to like our atmosphere but high speed particles whizzing around just that's where the government gets there's zero point energy of course our own the sun is making also particles black holes and mid particles all sorts of stuff out there in space and the amazing thing is that there are particles out there with such crazy high energy that nobody can explain it how high so the large hydrogen collider can make collisions up to 10 to the 12 electron volts 10 to the 12 oh my god yeah 10 to the 12 electron volts so that's like 10 to the 12 so that's like a trillion times the mass of a proton

1:27:58I'm trying to do it too I have to let the physicist he'll be faster so that's like a thousand times the mass of a proton okay and that's pretty impressive but there are particles we've seen from space that are like 10 to the nine times more energetic right so like a billion times more energy and that's amazing the universe has an accelerator that way way outputs hours right it puts ours to shame what is that of what fraction of the speed of light with those be these things are point none and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and they're like they are really redlining it where they come in speed so some of them come from like the centuries of galaxies or from really big stars or other stuff but some of these things we cannot explain it like there's nothing out there in the universe you ask an astrophysicist like give me a particle this energy how do you do it they're like we don't know start from a supernova wizard around a black hole nobody

1:29:01knows how to get particles at this high energy especially because the universe turns out to be opaque to these kinds of particles meaning it likes to absorb them so you shoot a particle out of this high energy it shouldn't go very far it interacts with the cosmic microwave background radiation and it loses its energy so not only is there something new out there that nobody understands capable of making particles a super high energy it's not very far away and nobody knows what it is it's not very far away it's not very far away because these particles cannot go very far through the universe so if we're seeing them here on earth and we're seeing them then they can't come from like all the way across the universe they have to be coming from our galaxy or one of the neighboring galaxies they can't go any further than that so they're in our cosmic neighborhood the challenge is they're rare we've seen like in decades of looking we've seen a handful of these so we can't even like say where are they coming from in this guy

1:30:03they all coming from the center of the galaxy are they all coming from this one planet that's already in that star and this is like aliens shooting a message at us we can't even do that kind of pointing because we have a handful of them and the reason is that they're very hard to spot they hit the top of the atmosphere and they create a big shower of particles so one energetic particle turns into two with less energy which turns into four which eventually what by the time it hits the ground it's like a trillion particles a trillion oh trillions absolutely wow and so you get this like wash of particles over the surface of the earth like super high energy particle hits the atmosphere then you get a big flash across the surface of the earth and so to see more of these things you either need to build like really big detectors have these dedicated detectors they built like in South America and in a desert in Utah to see these things but they cost like a hundred million dollars you can make those bigger if you had a billions of dollars Elon call us or my idea was look why don't we piggyback on existing technology instead of spending money to

1:31:10build dedicated scientific instruments is there something that's already out there that we're spending a lot of money on that could see these things and so your phone is effectively a particle detector how does that work well it has a camera in it try and what is a camera of then a particle detector in these days cameras are little CMOS chips there are these little piece of silicon when a photon comes through it liberates a bunch of particles then it gets read out yep if a muon goes through same thing happens it does absolutely in fact we use the same technology to detect particles at the large hater collider same silicon technologies used at the heart of every detector at the large hater collider is that something that you would see in the photo on your phone absolutely so wow I got a lot of months today if a muon goes through it'll leave like a little white spot or if it comes to an angle it'll leave like a little track across a few particles across a few pixels and so yes you can absolutely see it mostly it's it's washed out because you

1:32:13have a lot of light but if you put your if you put your phone down on the table so the camera's face down not getting any photons but if a muon goes through it'll pick it up so we have this idea a few years ago about 10 years ago now and I thought hmm I wonder if I can write an app which can scan the camera to look for muons while it's like on my table at night and see these things so I spent Christmas writing my first app I'm gonna do it later this evening at this thing to work putting the world yeah exactly it was actually on the Android so it was mostly in Java nice and it works you can see muons so I thought whoa my phone you saw some yes I saw some how did that feel it was it was amazing you know to see a signal emerge from the noise it's did you hold it he had to hold a family meeting because your wife is a scientist right molecular biology yeah she does microbiome research she understands like how the gut works and all the microbes in it do you guys ever fight about like whose science is more fundamental just to let her

1:33:16win you know her science is definitely more useful yeah that's for now so it so it worked that's crazy to me so it works and that's amazing because there are billions of phones out there and each one is connected to the internet and has power and has a person taking care of it and at night they mostly just sit there um imagine if you could take all those phones and turn then connect them in a big network they're spread out across the whole planet and we thought how many phones do we need in order to build a cosmic rate telescope the size of the earth that can do science at the level of these like hundred million dollar observatories the answer is like only five or ten million phones that's it that's it you get enough of those and we can see these super high into cost super high energy cosmic rays at the same rate of these big observatories but there's no limit there's no like upper edge there you have 50 million phones you have a hundred million phones you have a billion phones sure you could do cosmic physics the way nobody has ever done

1:34:21before you could see these things at a higher rate you could figure out where they're coming from in the sky so that's the excitement of it and so that's the project we're working on is to figure out like does this actually work if you have a bunch of phones can you really reconstruct where this thing came from so we have an app and it runs on our phones and we got a recently we got a grant from the Julian Schringer Foundation which is a foundation that likes to fund proposals that have been rejected by the NSF and I love it it's like hey let's invest in the crazy stuff love it right out of the box thinking and we pitched this to the National Science Foundation like 10 years ago and they were like we love your idea but first build it prove that it works then we'll consider funding which on one hand is like hmm that sucks and they're like I get it you know they either have to give their money to us and like our idea is not proven or to like some existing experiment that they know is going to yield solid science and that's the frustration right if you're at the NSF

1:35:23you have to say no to lots of good ideas you'd love to fund why because they just don't get enough money the NSF has intelligent people pitching them great ideas all the time and they have to say no to most of them because there's just not enough money to go around so they got to be conservative I get it but we pitched this to the Schringer Foundation we said give us enough money to build a small version of this so we can test and improve it and then maybe we can go global so that's the idea and it's a lot of fun and you know potentially one day we'll have an app that can run at every phone well you know at night while they're not using it or everybody's got an old phone they're not using of course lugging into the wall and turning into a cosmic radiatector so if you're at work does that's something that we can beta right now or it it works but the problem is that if everybody runs it it's going to cost me a lot of money because you got to upload all that data to cloud that's right we got to figure out a way to make it cheap and scalable and get real

1:36:27institutional support so we don't have the funds to support a global network right now even if the phones exist already and they already paid for the infrastructure to gather that is expensive how much data are we talking about that gets pushed not a whole lot of data like we've really shrunk it so that it runs really slim on your phone doesn't heat it up doesn't need a lot of battery doesn't upload a lot of data also we don't want to be uploading photographs from inside people's bedrooms at night so we know a lot of players they're privacy only under upload individual pixels when we think there was a mu on there so not a lot of data but you know scale that to 10 million people 100 million people it's a lot of bytes and you know cloud storage and cloud compute is expensive yes especially these days when we're competing with you know AI companies and so that's the hurdle is can we prove that this thing works and then can we figure out a way to scale it so that it doesn't blow the bank to do the cloud computation this idea is brilliant are there other applications for

1:37:34our cell phones that we're missing out on because it seems like it's a pretty complex device with capabilities there's a lot of citizen science you can do with your phone absolutely phones can detect earthquakes because they have a little accelerometer right you know you can like if you take hikes you can see like the birds there you can take pictures them contribute to all sorts of stuff they're very powerful devices and you know think about the scale of our investment in our phones versus how much we spend on science it's dwarfed it's absolutely dwarfed right nothing how much of money do we spend as a society on phones it's big compared to science and on one hand that frustrates me like why don't we spend more on science and the other hand it's an opportunity yes like look we have these things we've invested in them let's figure out a way to use that investment to do some science because you know you got to operate in the real world okay so the we get the funding the apps work the data comes to you what does it mean what do you do with that

1:38:34yeah so that's when you get to start asking questions yeah okay so we see these showers are all coming from the center of the galaxy okay what does that mean I mean there's something in the center of the galaxy capable of creating the super high energy particles what could it be now we can start training other kinds of telescopes there optical telescopes infrared telescopes ultraviolet telescopes this is multi messenger astronomy to understand the universe in several layers you can get to do to inject your information absolutely you can get directions right that sounds important yes absolutely that's the goal is like figure out where in the world where the universe are these high energy particles coming from we can make a map of the sky the galaxies they where are they coming from and we can't do that because it's only like a handful of examples so if we could get 10 times a thousand times as many we could start to see the universe in this new way right and we know the universe is emitting particles of this high energy using something that's new to us you

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1:40:39code y files for 20% off something that bothers me about aliens being here is I can't get my mind around the distances so you're aware of some theories of albacaerys warp drive and all of that how practical is that how feasible is that can you explain that how that works yeah so this is a solution to albatine stands equations of gravity which regard gravity as curvature of space time so the way to think of this we know the earth moves around the sun and we tend to think that there is a force gravity connecting the earth to the sun however another way to think of it which was Einstein's insight was to think about a marble moving on a trump the surface of a trampoline the the rubber surface which is curved as a result of putting a heavy object in the middle

1:41:44and so like a bowling ball okay you put in the middle and then the and then if you give the marble the right speed it will move on this curve the rubber in a circle just like the earth moves around the sun and it's simply because of the curvature of space time that the earth is trying to go along a straight line but the space time is curved and therefore it moves in the circle and if you were to remove the sun the source of gravity the earth would leave the solar system on a straight line in the same way that if you remove the bowling ball from the trampoline the marble will continue to move on a straight line on the flat surface of the trampoline so that's the way Einstein thought about it now you can imagine a solution to Einstein's equations that involves curved space time and indeed there is this solution where it's curved in a very unusual way such that it can propel an object in

1:42:47at a constant speed so because light speed is the limit so this is a way around the light speed limit as long as you can reach the configuration that this solution embodies and it requires some form of energy that produces negative gravity which we don't have we we never engineered it the universe accelerates so there is some repulsive gravity acting on the expansion of the universe but the substance that causes that expansion dark energy you know you would need to somehow engineer it in a different way because it it it it fills uniformly the universe just as if it's the vacuum energy density but the question is is there any anti gravity source that we can shape and have quantum gravity engineers design an object like that the object itself is a solution to a steady

1:43:47state where this object is moving but we don't know how to produce it what ingredients you need to put I mean you can imagine a cake that is extremely tasty but you just don't have the ingredients to make that cake or you don't have the oven to make that cake so that's the way you should think about it I can give you another example of a situation where you don't need rocket fuel to propel yourself just imagine we had access to a negative mass you know all the masses that we know about are positive and that's why gravity is attractive but in electromagnetism we have positive and negative charges so imagine that just like electromagnetism we would have negative masses and they would repel an object close to them so now I take the negative mass put next to it a positive mass of the same value and the total mass of this system would be zero and that means that if I put it here in the middle of this room it would float gravity will not bring it down if Newton's apple was

1:44:49made of a negative mass half of it negative mass half of it positive mass it would the apple would never fall on Newton's head you know like right and if I were to make it negative you know in principle next to a negative mass you can produce repulsive gravity that would propel objects away now the point is this zero mass object which with positive and negative it's like a dipole that you can just give a nudge and it will escape the pool of the earth and just think how much energy we invest in lifting a payload away from the earth the most of the size of the starship the rocket that Elon Musk is working on the biggest rocket we ever produced most of the mass of it is the fuel reservoir getting rid of that and just taking the payload putting next to it a payload of negative mass of the same value and you can just nudge it a kid it will just float like a balloon

1:45:51and escape the pool of the earth no investment of all these rocket fuel in lifting it out and such an object you know would be an ideal vehicle because you can accelerate or decelerate by pushing the negative mass relative to the positive mass or vice versa and so we just the only problem is we don't have access to negative mass we don't know how to produce it do we have to solve the super symmetry problem hierarchy problem first we have to understand how to unify quantum mechanics and gravity and the most popular idea in this direction is string theory that we discuss but at the moment they don't you know make any predictions not to speak about engineering prospects for for doing something with quantum gravity so we are sort of lost but if we do detect an object manufactured by another civilization that maneuvers in ways that

1:46:54are very different than the rocketry and accelerates to very high speeds and perhaps they mastered this technology so we cannot say that it's impossible by the way if we had access to negative mass we could build a time machine you could go back you're going through my whole whole list it right here it's great no because if you control gravity control time it's there yes the same yeah you can get back in time and then the question is well if you are to meet your grandparents and convince them not to get married how can you actually exist the grandfather paradox yeah so most physicists if you were to ask them would argue it's not possible because you get into logical inconsistencies but maybe it's possible with some caveats like you know any legal document has caveats so maybe you can never speak to your grandparents in a way that will convince them not to get married because you won't be able to say that or you won't remember that your brain the memories depend on

1:47:58the era of time so maybe you won't you won't be able to design a system that will go back and do a task for you because as you go back in time the system would change there's a somewhat recent theory about time travel regarding block universe theory where you can't go back and kill your grandfather because you didn't well how do you know I didn't because you because you're here so you didn't so that's that's kind of solves a paradox one way that I phrase it is that no Jew no Jewish person had access to the to a time machine in the future why do I know that because they would go back in time and kill Hitler sure and avoid the loss of six million Jews and the fact that still the history books and and all the evidence we have is that Hitler existed means that no Jew had access to a time machine this episode is brought to you by TickTack lace up and get your game on because the TickTack lineup just got a new teammate

1:49:00Dr. Pepper TickTack this new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mints and when two iconic flavors come together the result can only be iconic score big try Dr. Pepper TickTack today I call it a parallel universe intersection of P.U.I. you know and I find a lot of other people using the term now which is cool because I do think we need to research this yes I'm not saying it's actual I'm not saying it's real I'm not saying that what happened to me isn't some strange confluence of of crazy I don't even see anyone know what the word to put for that until we know why the wave function collapses I think everything's on the table it's all there and you're absolutely right you know and so until until we know what's really going on in the quantum world we're not going to find out what this stuff all means so this also gave me another revelation and that was maybe people to see ghosts and people that think in this parallel universe is

1:50:04maybe they work together maybe they can you know two things can be right at once and maybe there are ghosts and maybe there are multi-dimensional being seen across universes and maybe they just appear in our four-dimensional universe in the same way so maybe they both exist so I can see Aunt Mabel okay and it's really Aunt Mabel it's really her yeah could potentially be and but maybe I'm seeing a lady in a long dress white don't even know who she is and she's a parallel universe interloper who's just as surprised to see me as I am to see her right that's what's interesting is these these worlds collide but they're aware of each other it's not like you're just observing yeah yeah think about that stepping on this thing and having a yank by leg off the Monday that constitutes rudimentary communication across some golf yes and that's what is that golf parallel universe I don't know the ghostly realm maybe see our terms are not our terms

1:51:07are not sufficient to describe what's actually happening here so and I've said this before today's paranormal could be could be tomorrow's science we don't know we don't know we don't know but today's paranormal could be tomorrow's science and maybe this is an example of that happening I don't know think about that isn't that crazy it is I didn't expect this story yeah well I'm not crazy okay I know that I'm very I'm very firmly grounded okay but when things happen I'm open-minded enough to say we should explore this and I think this is one of the things we should explore so let's see if we can explain how that fifth dimension would work okay let's talk about in terms of propulsion and and when I say this it's gonna sound crazy until I explain UFOs don't need engines in my view they don't need them they just need the ability to translate from one dimension to another how they do that well we have to go down to the fundamental forces to see that we have a strong force

1:52:09a weak force electromagnetic is an gravity right right and gravity is the weirdo yep right physics yeah yeah that's right they do and the reason is because the other forces we can define as function as a weight function we can just describe as within equation yep or as a particle their duality right light is a photon it's a wave okay an electron is a wave okay and it's a particle right we can define it as a probability equation right yep or as a particle that happens with all the quantum particles except gravity which is 10 to the what 30 second power weaker than electromagnetism yes and nobody knows why and nobody knows why the hierarchy problem that's right and so exactly and why is it why is it yeah exactly why is that even why is that hierarchy problem even there we don't know but we have a clue right we have a clue and that clue is because you're not seeing all of it okay why is it why is it we're not seeing all of it because we're in four dimensions what if there's more what if there's another dimension what if it's a fifth dimension well how do

1:53:13we even what's that mean what does a fifth dimension mean okay well we have to change our physics to understand that because as I said before everything we have done is in four dimensions we've gone in four dimensions to go everywhere we've ever done everything is four dimensions as such we only know 4% of the universe the rest is dark matter dark energy and whatever that means whatever that means dark means we don't know doesn't mean black okay so dark matter dark energy who knows but I'll tell you this if we talk about the four dimensions okay and a fifth dimension we want to talk about it in terms that give us some kind of grab hold in into the other dimensions yes so we have a new construct and a construct partly is a string theory string theory is not proven we don't know that it's real right okay we have no idea but if we can employ let's let's hypothesize for a bit if we can have a fourth-dimensional space with a fifth-dimensional space too

1:54:16that actually corresponds to one particular variant of string theory called Randall sundrum one rs1 okay well Randall sundrum one states that there's four dimensions and a fifth dimension if we can access that fifth dimension there's something that's a quality that fifth dimension I use my thumb for which is very really really really strange the farther in you go into that fifth dimension it's exponential it's exponential farther you go in the smaller the universe gets around you so imagine this you travel 12 inches out here you go 12 measured inches on the ruler go into the fifth dimension some distance you travel that same 12 inches from your personal measurement on your ship you're actually traveling a much bigger distance because when you come out that expands to the size that you actually went right okay so that means you could be at the moon oh wait don't you travel all the distance from here to the moon because like two and a half days to get there all right well no because you're utilizing this other dimension so what happens is you

1:55:23translate to the fifth dimension all right from this end just exit point in your four-dimensional space let's take your author of it you go into the fifth dimension and you translate to a new four-dimensional point over at the moon and you can do that because the space is I think it's client called a compactified exponentially so you so you're really just hopping out and back in you're punching out and punching in right that's right now think about that okay it makes no sense before you go on with that yeah if if if if RS1 and for people listening this is a published paper from from I think late 90s if gravity originates deep within the bulk and it's compactified exponentially then that would unify the theory because gravity would just be leaking back to our dimension and it's exhausted by the time it reaches and hierarchy is solved you don't need me you got it well so that's how that works yeah yeah now how do we travel in that okay well that's because that's that happens at

1:56:23subatomic level how do you how do you how do you blow that up well see that's the problem we don't actually know how to access it that way mark we don't we don't know no it does okay but we actually have okay here is the nature of this this process back in the 20s collusion incline right theorize that there were clues to claim particles okay and they theorize that these particles could potentially have uses and characteristics that might be advantageous to us right but back then they didn't know anything right well go to stern now and there's a detector on that large hadrun collider that was built some years back called atlas ATLAS very different from three eye atlas okay that's a different detector what to do well in part it was built to do what detect collusion climb particles why not only theoretical because if we can detect them these are particles that are very very interesting

1:57:25why is that because they allow us to take gravity and actually quantify it in a way that will allow us to actually utilize it is this the elusive graviton yes this takes us to you knew that I know you knew that and Einstein read this paper I think the first paper from collusa held it for two years it couldn't it couldn't break it it couldn't break the math yeah because it actually made sense yes yeah it's difficult when you're looking at things that don't make sense when you think they they or that do make sense when you think they shouldn't right and then you you're gonna sit on it like he did you sit on it for a long time right but the point being let's let's let's let's draw picture okay you have a UFO you asked me why they're circular I never answered that question purposely because I wanted to get to this to answer that okay when you talk about how we generate those particles we're trying to generate them by speeding protons into a circular channel

1:58:26and curving them with magnetic fields right okay well when you take a charged particle like a proton the plus one charge okay made of three quarks okay when we do that we put them into a ring like that to make them go in a circuit we have to use the magnetic field and contain it every time you do that protons want to go in a straight direction so when you curve them they generate another form of radiation which you probably know it's called synchrotron radiation yes that's very dangerous we don't want that okay that's why it's certain you know on chanron colliders hundreds of feet on the ground blah blah okay the ground protects uh so the problem is that that is the way that we're generating particles to look at and we're doing it crude it's rudimentary we don't have an efficient way to generate particles we just look at how they splash together at the end of the channel right and we based look at the base on the basis of that beautiful collision uh we can follow the trails and build digital paths that they take and say oh look that's a quark you know uh this one has charm

1:59:30okay i mean and figure stuff out that way but we're also doing that to try and find collusic line particles notice i didn't see gravitons yet okay because the elusive graviton would would basically theoretically come from the fact that uh all the quantum particles are dual they're dual we have a wave and we have a particle nature so we now know that gravity has waves where is the particle right it's got to exist we just can't see can't see it and the reason we can't it's not in our four dimensions it's originating outside in the fifth dimension ah so this means that when we when we are subject to gravity we can measure it we can calculate its effects we can send we can send probes outside our solar system on exacting paths using gravity and propulsion but we aren't actually controlling gravity we're subject to it because rs1 has three provable

2:00:33experiments that should prove that those gravitons are there and we can't find none of the more it's no it's three we're over three our technology is is not to the point where we can possibly do it i would like to get more information and like to see that we can prove we have to prove string theory we have to actually be able to live within rs1 for some period of time we'll do this yeah i don't think we're there yet but i do think that this is the way they operate and um let me paint another picture when we talk about the large header on collider it's a big ring right and we're primitive we have a 22 mile ring that we're trying to make these particles collide and takes us that much time knowing size to actually speed these things up the near light speed the collider etc etc alien creatures probably being say a thousand years ahead of us would have figured out how to shrink their their accelerators the generate particles that they could then use for their purposes all right so when you talk about UFOs being round i think they're round especially the 30-foot

2:01:38sport model as bizarre calls it right the coop whatever that is okay the 30 the 30-foot diameter size i think that they're round like that because the outer ring is an accelerator these are particle accelerators and they're generating particles that surround the craft and close the loop with gravity they generate these fifth-dimensional particles from their accelerators and because they have generate these particles they're pulled into the fifth dimension because that's where they're going so i'll call this what going home to okay and they pull every craft in they pull anything within them into this fifth dimension now that's very dangerous especially in the compressed universe if anything goes wrong in there they're toast right figuratively and accurately okay however if they can pull it off if they can get in there and they can go in a certain distance all right and what they do is they now can punch in at a new point from within there but based on how far in they go that point they go to will be expanded to a much bigger distance so theoretically you can go from here to alpha centaurian a stampored physicist figure this out

2:02:43last i checked he calculated that using a Closocline Graviton if they exist they're about 10 to the 16 times stronger than the Graviton's holding us to our chairs today right okay he said if we can do that and use these particles like that we can actually get to alpha centaurian in about 20 minutes using this technology which is what four light years for change 4.3 wow and 20 minutes yeah and we're not we're not we're not traveling for light years we're not violating the speed of light because we're not using it you just hop into the fifth dimension and pop in right it's probably going to be like this you're getting you know like like zigzagging through space between here and alpha centaurian why would you bounce in and out uh because we can't probably go the whole way we probably can't generate the energy to all so far and then we can make the massive jump we can't and maybe when we get the technology we're going to take a uh a bottle sized spacecraft and send it to the moon in in two and a half seconds well look at what we did you know and then bring it back okay so but the fact is if we can't

2:03:46if we do that we're gonna we're gonna probably oscillate in and out okay and this is key because if you oscillate in and out from the fifth dimension to our fourth dimensions if you do it fast enough well now it's like a frequency right and if you can do it fast enough you're not here you're not there you're sort of in between kind of in that little in-between path at all times so guess what you can be in the deep ocean for as long as you want and not feel any force of pressure no problem you can live down there you can hide from us you can actually have your you a photos sitting on the bottom you can have your ship on the bottom and just sit there how does that accelerator protect the occupants ah well see that's the thing the accelerator okay the central core all right is going to be subject to synchrotron radiation as well probably very intense but not as much as the outside no well it could it's radial in all directions okay the fact being in the interior you can shield that we can shield the craft to prevent that okay but that's a that's a tourist how do you proud you protect above and below the plane of the accelerator you don't

2:04:50you don't you don't have to you don't have to because the occupants are inside in the middle and they're protected okay they have shielding so that stuff is gonna surround the whole ship metipotire will be useful there no kidding right maybe maybe maybe we got there's another wrinkle I haven't talked about that's micro black holes there's a few wrinkles here but there's a few but I but I love it's you know there's so many wrinkles that it's like is it even worth talking about but yes it is yes it is because I believe that this is the way that it may actually work I think you I think you're right I think so and I think Bob Schroeder was right too when he wrote that book so micro black holes yeah the micro black holes okay here's what they do okay with with with a tiny particle all right that's 10 to the 16 times more powerful than the gravitons holding us down it's gonna generate a certain percentage of micro black holes theoretical construct we don't seem all the time right obviously so if you do that what are they gonna do they only live a few nanoseconds a few billions of a second but if you keep a flow

2:05:53round your ship at all times you have a certain net number if you're seeing a ship using and what are you gonna see you're gonna see the ship shimmer right you see it change color wobble you might see wobble you might see it vanish and once you're gonna eat it's gonna eat some atmosphere it's gonna eat some light and it's gonna eat the gravitons coming from the earth that's right and it's gonna prevent the earth's gravity from reaching it this episode is brought to you by TickTack lay sub and get your game on because the TickTack line up just got a new teammate doctor pepper TickTack this new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mince and when two iconic flavors come together the result can only be iconic score big try doctor pepper TickTack today you've probably seen athletes using those inflatable compression boots after games those are normatec from hyper ice the massage gun everyone's carrying that's hypervolt the heated vibration wraps for sore knees backs and shoulders that's venom together they help athletes and active

2:06:57people recover move better and get ready for what's next whether you're training hard or simply trying to feel your best every day hyper ice has a recovery solution built for you visit hyper ice dot com today that's h-y-p-e-r-i-c-e dot com hyper ice recovery trusted by the world's best so what is the block universe uh so when Einstein published his first paper on special revelativity in 1905 i think um he wasn't thinking cosmologically whatever he was just he was he was dealing with questions of light and and how light works and how reference frames work but his math teacher Hermann Minkowski saw the implications of what he was saying that

2:08:02if this is true which it seems to be then what's true connecting if if relativity special relativity is true if there's no objective reference frame then there is a point of view on any moment that feels open-ended that from which it's actually in the past and it's already happened so you and i sitting here talking right now we feel like we're uh we are you know moving through a timeline and it's open-ended and you have no idea what's going to happen next and you can say fuck in the you know 10 seconds i wouldn't predict it whatever but there's a point of view on which all of this has already happened so it's so so just as we think of the past as solid and fixed the future is also solid and fixed and what he called this was the space time continuum and he put a hyphen in there space time continuum and it's come to be called the block

2:09:07universe because you can sort of visualize it as a big block in which there's one of the dimensions is time and so we're all low-wing we're all we may think we're just you know bodies moving through the universe but from that four-dimensional perspective we're worms or snakes we're sneaking through that four-dimensional block and the present moment is a cross section it's a three-dimensional cross-section of that four-dimensional reality and that again that future already exists and theoretically can interact with the past in different ways you can have things like what we call wormholes now which were theorized actually pretty early and uh by Einstein by Einstein and Rosen yeah oh yeah but before that I think it was girdle who who solved Einstein's field equations in a way to show that you could have a path through space time that actually wound

2:10:10up in your own past yes and you know and this was you know Einstein was not thinking in these terms he was not and in fact he was initially kind of he was initially just as alarmed by the idea of time travel as pretty much anyone is because the the first thing you think is like wait wait no no that that can't happen and I would lead to paradox and blah blah blah he thought that too but then he came around because his colleagues showing him no no no this this the math shows that this is possible and then we have yeah things like wormholes where you could have you know create a create a passage through space but if you you take one of those whole one of the mouths of the wormhole and you move it in near the surface of black hole and then move it back out then they're out of sync with each other and you can have time travel right so yeah so there's and then there's other possibilities you know warp drives alkoobier warp drives and so on which are time machines as well as space machines so the block universe yeah it's sort of the the the basic premise

2:11:16that makes all of this possible and it's still not really questioned among most physicists so this kind of throws away the many worlds interpretation yes yeah and as far as I'm concerned it does yeah so can you explain because this was mind blowing to me as I told you earlier I didn't episode on synchronicities based on youngs famous scarab story and part of my research was time storms and I was halfway through the episode and I went well shit I'm wrong about all of this and it doesn't happen a lot where someone just changes my whole point of view on a specific topic but you did because I think you saw the grandfather paradox well do you want to talk about the the the the the the scarab story and we can do that yeah yeah well I mean this is honestly this is my favorite example of the time loop it really is the best illustration of what I mean by a time loop um okay so for people who don't know uh this patient came into Jung's office one morning let's say and she had

2:12:18she told him a dream that she had had the night before that someone gave to her this piece of jewelry in the shape of a Egyptian scarab beetle and right as she's telling him this dream he hears on tap on the window behind him and he turns around and there's a a rose chaffer beetle which was sort of the European equivalent of the of the dung beetle or the scarab and he opens the you know he was a whatever y'all see want to say about Jung he was a brilliant shaman yes and he opened his window took the beetle handed it to her said here's your scarab and it was like this like mind blowing moment for both of them yes uh and you know he said that it was the moment that opened his patient up to mysteries and so on it was really a decisive turning point in her in her treatment now he sort of described this and he used that term synchronicity to sort of collapse this sort of

2:13:23time dimension say time doesn't matter here you know this was you know she's telling the story about a scarab and then a scarab shows up but really what was happening you know she had a pre-cognitive dream this was not synchronicity this was this was something unfolding in time in the wrong direction you know this woman had a pre-cognitive dream about being handed a scarab beetle and low and behold the next morning it happens and well anyone who keeps a dream journal and is aware of pre-cognition like yep that's what happens but in this case what makes it what makes that so hard for people to grasp is that oh wait it was her telling him her dream that got him to open the window and give in the scarab like without that element you know this would not have happened so they think that is not a paradox but it's it's not a paradox it's actually a loop it's a totology because her dream caused her to tell her doctor the dream which caused the doctor to note to turn around and and see a scarab beetle and give her the the the the the beetle and which was what caused her dream

2:14:30in the first place so it is a loop it is a causal loop as what blew my mind was she wasn't seeing the future she was remembering it she was remembering the future yeah yeah seeing the future she was remembering it in a way or pre-membring so so sending information back yes to her yes to her younger self so she didn't really have to do anything it was it was going to happen she remembered it happened yes that's what's kind of once you get your mind around it which isn't that hard if you just if you just let everything else go many worlds all that mm-hmm she's just it's just unfolded I think you call it the backstory yes yes yeah yeah so that her her dream was part of the backstory of that event happening in the office and but you can't you know when you tell a story like this as the problem I always have with my books is like how do you tell these these anecdotes because really cause cause if causation is circular like that you could start the story anywhere you know you can start the story with the beetle showing up at the window or you could start the

2:15:33story anywhere in that in that in that narrative it's all sort of equally causal and that throws us off because we're used to linear stories we're used to stories being linear and so it's very it's hard to wrap our heads around that but that's it's the opposite of a paradox a paradox is something that can't happen right the totology is something that must happen and therefore is not interesting in a way or not interesting to a logician because you know like you know it's not fair to to defend an argument by its antecedents is it yeah yeah right but but it's the way the world works I think so in a time travel universe in any universe where time travel or time traveling information is allowed then everything on some level is total logical um you said it must happen that sounds like teleology to me that sounds like played on our Aristotle this is it's teleology

2:16:33this is the whole reason why people reject this is because in the time of Francis Bacon Francis Bacon is the one who who rejected teleology from the story of science let's explain teleology that's yeah so teleology is one so Aristotle codified these I think four different kinds of causation and one of them one of them was efficient causation that's what we understand is causation we have one thing leading to another like billiard balls but one of them was teleological causation that is to say the end you know telos meaning the end you know in some sense causing what happened before it now this was a part of the Aristotelian framework for centuries but then in the 1500s Francis Bacon sort of one of the first real thinkers about trying to create what we now think of as the sciences he wrote and I'm blanking on the name of his book but he he wrote this book in which he

2:17:40you know basically laid out what causation was and and banned teleological causations say we can't you know we can't accept you know causation from the future and but the reason was that teleology at that time the only teleology people could could imagine was God's divine plan right okay and the idea was getting rid of taking God out of the equation taking God out of the scientific equation so what they did was throw the baby out with the bath water really they they throughout teleology and ever since then it has been rural numero uno in science that causes travel in a single direction and you know you can't have anything that defies that unilinear causal story but your future is pulling you toward this result yes that's what I'm that's what I'm arguing a lot what what more and more physicists are arguing is that no no retro causation

2:18:44that's the new word for teleology yes sort of a non-divine teleology and terral bumbams a really interesting guy he he's a psychologist at Cornell he's emeritus no but he so his story is interesting he got interested in he was never interested in in parapsychology really until the 90s I think the early 90s when a colleague of his I guess a colleague or another psychologist anyway named Charles Honerton who was a parapsychologist in doing parapsychology research wanted he wanted someone who had training as a mentalist to be part of his experiments because that's a good control you know to make sure that there's no cheating and that and that and so on and terral bamb is a trained mentalist and he didn't necessarily have an interest in ESP or whatever but he didn't he wasn't a knee-jerk

2:19:50you know he didn't he just didn't know anything about it and he but he was game to sort of be part of these experiments to sort of ensure that everything was kosher and and honors and got you know very you know positive results in these I think I think they were tell up the experiments if I'm not mistaken or maybe they were remote bearing I'm not sure but anyway terral bamb realized you know there's something to this you know he's getting results and and so anyway in the in the first decade of this century he you know he already had a very successful career as a on personality and various various topics you know he was a very very respected psychologist but anyway he did this large series of experiments in which he reversed cause and effect in basic psychology paradigms

2:20:51one of them being like priming like you're you know a typical priming experiment you'd be subliminally shown some picture or whatever and then see how it affects your behavior afterwards right well he would do an experiment in which people perform on some test and then are shown something subliminal afterwards okay so this kind of like reversal of cause and effect anyway he got significant results in like eight of nine experiments that he did we explain the curtain test yes yeah like this this is the most famous one he so he had these were very large experiments with large groups of undergraduates but he had undergraduates sit at a computer and choose which of two curtains on a screen had a picture behind it okay now I'll add there wasn't actually already a picture behind these curtains it was generated randomly after the mouse click right okay anyway so

2:21:55they make a mouse click and then it shows if they're right or wrong and they did they performed at chance 50% correct as you would expect 50% was when when the picture to be revealed was boring okay right like a beach scene or something like that but when the picture to be revealed was erotic yep emotional adults engaged in consensual sexual acts or no yeah um they they did better than chance I think 70% something like that no it wasn't that high I mean the the you know the effect size is still small in these experiments um but but statistically because he had so many participants and so many trials it reached statistical significance okay and then there's another series of experiments that sort of reversed the typical order of a memory experiment so so at a typical memory task you

2:23:03might like be showing a word list and then you engage in some seemingly unrelated task that reminds you of certain words on that list and then you take a test on the word list and you'll be expected to perform better on the words that were you were reminded of okay well in his version he showed had had kids look at a word list then he tested them on the list and then after the test he had them engage in a task which subliminally reminded them of certain words on the list and guess what they did better on the words that they were subsequently reminded of just let that land for a second let that land yeah they were reminded of certain words later and those happened to be the words they did better on from the list yes retroactive facilitation of recall hmm is what he called this um just to be fair the skeptics 2023 there was a replication issue right with BEMs research okay there's a there's a lot of controversy about there is immediately the skeptics jumped on this

2:24:03in uh this this came out in 2011 right immediately skeptics were in rage I mean my colleagues at one of the psychology organizations were eraged yeah um uh anyway and then skeptics said no this can't be replicated and here we try to replicate it and we couldn't uh but a lot of teams around the world did replicate it successfully uh and yeah does don't get on Wikipedia because you'll you will see it completely bias of course uh version of this but uh I think something like 80 80 independent a three independent replications yes something like that um so yeah fascinating fascinating evidence for something like pre cognition what he would call it pre sentiment feeling the future and that's what he called the art of the um what he called it in his original

2:25:08article on this so for the skeptics of BEMs work I think we have um in the late 80s physicists aronofs split laser test as a hold might be here right that story well yeah this wasn't aronof this was um oh I'm howl and dixon I believe this is also at Cornell right think where they uh they took a laser beam they put it through a beam splitter to create two identical beams essentially they don't that's not the terms they use in physics are different but that's they're essentially creating an experiment group in a control group like you'd have in a psychology experiment um and they did what was called a weak measurement on both of these beams uh which is measuring the amplitude of the beam without interfering too much with the with the beam and this is a challenge that we can talk about with these kinds of experiments and every time you you you measure something you're interfering with it in some way right that's the challenge yeah and the

2:26:12challenge is to try and find ways of measuring things that don't interfere too much so that you can tell if a subsequent interaction is having a retro effect well anyway they split the beams weekly measured both of the beams and then did a strong measurement on one of the two beams and lo and behold the beam that got the strong laser measurement was amplified like 10 times compared to the previously compared to the other beam uh which suggests retro causation now you'll get contra controversies and physicists will debate the significant you know what this means and so on but uh that seems to be evidence for retro causation on wheelers delay choice certainly that's would be another example um yeah there's there's uh so this is an active area of of research and multiple experiments have been conducted like like that uh that i just described um which seem to show retro

2:27:14causation then you also have the field of quantum computing which is showing that you can have uh indeterminate temporal ordering of of computations in a quantum computer circuit and i'm you know i admit i am not a physicist i'm not a computing researcher so you know this is all above my pay grade but there's so many so many articles have come out in the last several years uh showing that you can invert causal order in a quantum computing circuit yeah and Cambridge they're they're solving problems from with information from the future yeah yeah um can we explain just a little bit about delayed choice what's happening there how it connects to time the photons going back to the source changing their state that sort of thing just to remind folks yeah so uh delay okay so there's um let me take the example of works you have a different favorite well

2:28:16like one of the experiments that that i think excited john wheeler i say his idea was that you could take late light from a distant quasar say and choose to measure it a certain way uh and it would it would show that how your choice of how to measure it had influenced the light from that distant quasar well uh a uh blanking on his name alley i think an astrophysicist um i forget which university but he he heard wheeler speak and had an idea for actually testing this using mirrors placed on the moon by the Apollo astronauts uh because they placed mirrors on the moon to bounce laser light back to sort of measure the very minute like changes in distance between earth and moon in different phases of its orbit um well they used you know they shot a laser at the moon and it

2:29:20takes like what i think a second for light to get to the moon and back so that's enough time to change the parameters of experiment unless you're nixon on the phone then it's instant yeah yeah um um and uh and it showed indeed that you can like you can change how you're going to measure light and the light somehow seems to know it seems to know seems to know how it's being measured yeah um well you know seeming to know something that you shouldn't be able to know that you know that seems like telepathy you know but another way of looking at telepathy is that it's really precognition that the that the that the light was influenced by that subsequent measurement and uh and that information essentially from the future traveled back in time along the world line of that photon right it's destiny it fulfilled it's destiny yeah so uh yeah there's all kinds of reasons to think that yes retro causation is a real thing at the at the smallest scales in nature

2:30:29now you know that that quantum realm where we're talking about individual particles uh you know behaving in seemingly impossible ways but there are certain circumstances where you can scale up though that quantum magic and that's when this topic of entanglement comes in when you entangle particles together you can create a larger and larger object that enters the realm of of objects that we're used to interacting with uh and you can demonstrate that quantum magic at a large scale that could be the strong force measurement right just the entanglement of the equipment or a quantum computer a quantum computer is a bunch of particles that are entangled together to essentially an object that performs computations and uh it and in those settings you can again we talked about quantum computers reversing cosmic factor you can have a a material thing that is responding

2:31:30to its future yes okay and okay then set aside those those ideas and enter the realm of biology where more and more people are thinking that the brain could be a quantum computer or have quantum computing properties um and if that's the case you know add add all these add all these up and you get the idea that the brain could be a four-dimensional information processor that is prespawning to its future as well as responding to its past so on the show I've I've covered quantum biology with the with the cryptochromes and the bird's eye which has been proven that they're entangling with the magnetic field um quantum processes and plants where they're finding the photosynthesis is a quantum process yeah they're checking all the paths simultaneously it's superposition in real time on leaves so clearly a quantum the quantum state can be held in a wet hot place right right and that's always been the the point of skepticism uh well you can't have

2:32:36entanglement uh occurring in a warm wet environment like the brain but it's increasingly being shown that that actually you can and that living that life is a quantum uh is scaling up these quantum effects I want to ask you about um microtubules in a second before we move to that um what did Niels Bohr how did he address retro causality I know he didn't like any of this no he did not in he yeah Niels Bohr is a really important figure in in the sort of I'd say century long denial or refusal to look at retro causation because ever since the 1920s there has been this idea that that retro causation could explain a lot of this spooky quantum stuff uh but the idea just keeps getting shoved aside uh partly because of Niels Bohr's personality I mean he was just a very forceful personality and he um he sort of got the whole field of physics to

2:33:42just basically agree to not interpret what was going on uh at a quantum level and just say it's random and just accept that the world is random on a fundamental level uh and and that's the answer and you just have to wrap your head around that well a lot of people have not wanted to wrap their head around it you know have not been satisfied with that answer Einstein famously said God does not play dice uh that's right and but Niels Bohr basically dominated the field until really the last couple of decades when what's called the Copenhagen interpretation and he was from Denmark so it's called the Copenhagen interpretation when it's kind of broken down and and now you have these this kind of flurry of rival theories going on in the field uh so you've got besides the Copenhagen interpretation you have you know many worlds theory that we talked about you've

2:34:46got uh uh bombs pilot wave theory you've got multiple rival theories but retro causation or some version of retro causation and not all physicists call it retro causation the problem is they use different terms sometimes to mean the same thing like what what do we look at well so they'll tell you that to be really precise you can't talk in terms of causation anymore and you do talk in terms of constraints and like they'll they'll use different language because they don't want to give this impression that somehow energy is traveling from the future to the past and stuff like that um um to be uh there's a there's a team that wrote a book relatively recently called Beyond the Dynamical Universe uh which is basically making this same argument that i'm talking about but they don't use the term retro causation and they and they take pains to distinguish themselves from right from other physicists who use the term retro causation but they're basically talking about

2:35:46the same thing which is that that something happening in the future is constraining what's happening now and thus that's a kind of information traveling backward in time you know for us us ordinary humans who need need to be able to grasp this somehow we need we need these clumsy expressions like influence or information traveling backward in time we need to be able to put it that way so that we can wrap our heads around it but that's you know a physicist will have a more precise way of talking about it but the basic idea is that what happens in the future influences what's happening now and what's happening now influenced what happened in the past it's so elegant i don't know why there's such resistance to it's so elegant well it takes away free will or it seems to it it does that's that's something kind of stressful about your theories is determinism and free will so if everything that's going to happen is going to happen regardless because we're on this timeline then why does anything matter well right that's that's where people's heads go right but the more you

2:36:51sit with it you get to another place that's that's i think that's a devil's abdication on board yeah yeah that's that's what hangs people that's people's hang up it is a literal hang up people get hung up on this on this question of free will and they think oh well then if it's going to happen anyway what's the point but you know just think about that for a second um you can't know the future that that's the thing this is the this is the why call the pre-cognition paradox you cannot know the future right so you cannot know the future and you don't know how any you know how the future is going to unfold based on your actions and just laying in bed in the morning and not getting up and putting on your pants and going to work you know that's that's an action just as much as as getting up and putting on your pants and going to work uh it's true so it's like it doesn't make any you know the you got to do something and uh and when so i'm a zen guy all right and really

2:37:54yes and and and when you sit with this when you sit with the blockie universe as a cologne is a kind of you know cologne you reach a point where you go holy shit that's it's beautiful and it's like it's liberating it's liberating to get rid of the baggage of free will determine it like who fucking cares it's not it's just it's easy for you to say well you know but it's honestly this is a point you can get to when you treat this as a cologne as a as a you know as a riddle to be solved and don't just like turn away from it but that's unfortunately what's what generations of physicists have done they've turned away from it because this this stress passes on some philosophical idea that's really important for us as westerners true um and and it's distorted their interpretation of the science which is that's not scientific either you know we've talked about ways people ways which scientists don't behave scientifically well uh generations of physicists

2:39:01have avoided a very obvious and elegant conclusion or a very obvious and elegant hypothesis about nature simply because it is philosophically and culturally kind of uncomfortable and that's not behaving scientifically either no it's not unfortunately they all haven't so eventually the evidence is just going to stack up yeah but it's the you know it is acquiring that evidence is tough because of this because of this problem of distinguishing between you know when you when you measure something you're interfering with it so how is your measurement you know is it is it simply changing the future or is it changing it's it's it is very hard to test this experimentally and for exactly the same reasons why it is hard to prove that my dream about two buildings with corrugated facades that were mosques on the morning for 9-11 wasn't a coincidence I mean it's you know of course you can't prove that that will always

2:40:04be the counter the uncertainty principle so that uncertainty principle is right there at the heart of the topic of recognition so before we talk about Panorows and Hemeroff which everybody listing knows let me pull another story out of you because I love the bootstrapped paradox but the bootstrapped paradox is my favorite I mean it's it's another way of putting a time loop basically it's the idea so say you have a here's an example that David Deutsch the physicist and quantum computing pioneer uses it in a paper that he wrote in the 1990s he says okay you have a a Nobel Prize winning physicist I'm sorry Nobel Prize winning mathematician and he has access to a time machine and he goes back in time and finds himself his younger self you know studying in the library and gives him the proof that he later won the Nobel Prize for solving and so the the

2:41:10he basically just gave it to himself in the future and there's nowhere in that causal loop where anybody actually did the work right of solving that math problem okay well that's what makes steam shoots out shoot out people's ears you know it's like it's bothered me since start trick for the voyage home exactly exactly how do we know he did invent the thing exactly it's it's it's it's there at the heart of any time loop is this bootstrapped paradox but again it's we're not it's not really a paradox bootstrapped paradox is a misnomer it's a totology it's not a paradox uh in fact I think that that everything is bootstrapping wow I didn't say they goes all the way down that that in a time travel universe in a universe that it at allows time travel at all ultimately everything is bootstrapped everything's a bootstrapped I guess it has to be and this is and this is why I love the topic this is why I wrote my last book um where was it before the dream because it it is an answer

2:42:18to that question of of you know you know where does a new idea come from well it's literally like that proof that is given to the younger self by the older self and it doesn't come from any it literally comes from nowhere in the sense that there is nowhere in the history of an idea where somebody like actually did the work of solving a problem it just literally is given to your younger self by the older self and that's plagiarism of the future plagiarism of the future so this is this is this is the time loop at the heart of creativity I think and it's create and it's literally creation next nealo so it's literally we're gods okay creators are gods because they're creating from literally nothing there is literally nowhere in the history of an idea that some that that some little imp is putting it hammering it together or putting it together nowhere that you're that your brain is piecing together things and creating a new thing it's it's receiving it as a gift from its future self you are the muse yeah of yourself yeah I when I when I'm having good ideas now

2:43:22I find myself thanking my future self like I appreciate that's great that's great that's good idea yeah yeah is that driving some of your work yeah totally yeah yeah yeah it's it's I think it's an inspiring way of thinking about about art and creativity but about you know just creative solutions in general I you know I think that's I think that's what's happening it's easy to show it's easier to show with art because because you know you have an artwork that then is something like a dream journal that you could then compare to a later event or whatever in a person's life it's it's a little harder with things like inventions and scientific theories and stuff like that they just are not as amenable to that kind of confirmation uh uh process and that kind of comparing with a person's biography but I think that that's what innovation really is is bootstrapping what do you think's happening with flow state and sort of unconscious behavior yeah that's a flow a flow state is when you were cooking uh in terms of that

2:44:29that bootstrapping that's your future self just kind of giving flowing into the yes flowing unimpeded yeah I mean anyone who and it's yeah and it goes beyond creativity like anyone who's uh doing some skilled activity a martial artist or um you know a jet fighter pilot or a brain surgeon you know they're in a zone yes they are not thinking about their free will this is another reason I tell people stop working about free will you know your best self always comes out when you're not thinking deliberately about your will every time exerting your will your best self is that that in the zone when you are a machine you're part of a machine and you're part of what I think of as a sort of four dimensional machine that's that's like you know cycling through time as well as space uh it's uh you know that's what you know the zen you know it's a zen thing you know the zen masters are all about finding that state where you are not really willed you know you are you are

2:45:33doing what must be done and it this I'm gonna go off script a little bit because something just occurred to me as you're saying this is um as a martial artist as a performer and sitting here in this room when things are moving well it's it's very automatic but I will find myself with a second dialogue almost observing it's happened here a couple of times today where where I'm just sort of observing oh that was a great question oh this is really interesting it's going well that sort of thing or if you're performing yeah you're doing stand up you're like all the audience is kind of rough of tonight let's let's try this material what what do you think is going on in the mind booby got these split monologues uh yeah it's a great question you know I I come back to um it's an idea that I talk about in in time loops a bit called leabits gallum if Benjamin Leabit was a neuroscience terrifying terrifying research terrifying research about how you know we're out of sync with with reality we may have to describe experiments but yeah well

2:46:36that that would be fine but the thing is the the the upshot I think of his research is that we are actually we are actually pulling our meat puppet strings from the future and that those moments that you're describing you know like you know like I'm a martial artist too you know you have those moments where you kind of mentally replay something really great that you just did well what if that's your freely willed self pulling your meat puppet strings in the past you know what if that's where your free will is being exerted is on your past behavior um that's you know again how do we prove that I don't know but but but it is but it's a real it exists whether we want to prove it or not it happens to people in flow even when you're sinking a bunch of baskets yeah you're on something's going on yeah yeah totally and you talk to psychics remote viewers go into at state to when they're you know when they're cooking what do you think remote viewers are they are they remembering the future is real this is a big debate there's a big debate the field I mean I think that's a hypothesis

2:47:38that needs to be tested and no one's testing it um uh lifestyle you criticize pat price from a huge pat price fan and when you kind of described what pat was doing it it made a lot of sense to me because he was because real viewers are wrong more than they're right but when they're right they're definitely right yeah so are they're just remembering they were right that's that's the hypothesis that needs to be falsified right before we assume that remote viewing is actually you know sending your consciousness across space to some other location or to some target uh it needs to be falsified that you're not previewing the pre-remembering pre-remembering the feedback you're going to get afterwards true and and this is you know some very small experiments have been done to try and test this but not not on any scale and I I always tell remote viewers you've got I'm unfortunately I'm not an experimental you know pericycologist I don't I'm not have the setup to to study this myself

2:48:41but I think someone who has the the the means should set up experiments where they you you and unfortunately these are kinds of experiments are the kinds that would be done at any psychology laboratory where you have to deceive your subjects and I think that's why it does these experiments don't happen because they're happening we're just you know stargate never made it I don't think right but are they but are these experiments that would falsify the pre-cognition hypothesis they're probably not happening probably not I don't know did you remote view your wife shoes I did not remote view my wife's shoes I pre-cognized being on a floor hunting for an adville that had dropped among wife shoes yeah so remote viewing but it's I'm saying it's an open question and I put it out there because I no one else is voicing it and I think it's really something that that the field needs to address well that's why I asked you is because when I read your work I put it down and I just like oh

2:49:43shit I hadn't considered that's why I ask you these I'm asking a question maybe it's not even your field but you're here so might as well pick the brain yeah but it's you know a remote viewers will get I understandably touchy about it because I it's it's important you know it feels it's validating of a certain belief system that about consciousness and so on that it leaves the body and so on and and and I get it like I you know I people don't want cold water thrown on that and I'm I'm just I'm saying look look this is you if you're going to really believe that you need to test it you know you that that's the point of being a materialist scientist which is you know really testing rigorously and taking the most reductive a version of a story and seeing if that reductive version can explain the results and maybe it can't you know I'm I'm open that maybe maybe there is you know more remote viewing than peak cognition I certainly talk to people who

2:50:46are we're very convinced that that's the case but it's it needs to be done in the context of of studies that are published or you can look at the evidence and hard to get that published it's hard to yeah it is probably not an accident the jocke full i was hanging around sri in the 70s probably not an accident probably not an accident and he and he was like the first one of the first people to raise this possibility by the way I mean it's in his journals like he's you know he had lunch this was 1978 I think with the sri guys I said like how do you guys know this isn't pre cognition you know you're treating this all like this is clairvoyance and this could be all pre cognition and he was he was very early on that kind of bandwagon that this may be pre cognition has valet addressed the microtubules and and permerose hammer of work yet not that i'm aware of where do you stand on on that quantum process i mean very much in favor of hammer offs work the anesthesiologist yeah like a microtubules i think microtubules could be the answer

2:51:48i don't i am not personally that interested in the question of consciousness you're not no i think it's a red herring i think i think uh if something's going to come out of this search for consciousness it's going to be it's it's going to be a sort of serendipitous discovery of the mechanisms underlying pre cognition and i think that's where that's where the significance of microtubules is so microtubules so we were talking about memories being consolidated yeah okay um so guess what it is in neurons that reshape the synapses every night when you're dreaming and creating new memories microtubules yes so if these microtubules are the little quantum computers uh that are presponding to their own future states it makes perfect sense you know it really creates a perfect little hypothesis for how pre cognition works this episode is brought to you by tic-tac lay sub and get your game on because the tic-tac line

2:52:51up just got a new teammate dr pepper tic-tac this new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mince and when two iconic flavors come together the result can only be iconic score big try dr pepper tic-tac today hey i like your new rap for thanks yours too what does rap stand for anyway to me it's the remarkably advanced vehicle really to me it's the runway approved vehicle for its amazing style what about remarkably adaptable vehicle because of its versatile cargo space or really admired vehicle oh or really awesome vehicle it really is the recreational activity vehicle this stylish 2026 Toyota rap for limited what's your rap for would your model um track with that being reducing entropy if you make it yeah it's good

2:53:51more exactly you make those choices you reduce your entropy every reality frame that you get in whether it's a nightdream a daydream uh you go to some other reality frame which is what we were going to talk about all of them give you choices in which you can devolve or evolve if you make choices at a carrying you make it on the left side then you evolve you make it on the the side you de-evolve so you're just there trying to make choices and the choice you make in a dream will level you upward or level you down just as much as the choice you make her awake sure they're all the same it's just different environment so you get different choices to be on the third floor of a five-story apartment building and so on fire isn't the kind of choice you want to duplicate here because it's going to affect a lot of people really badly you know it's it's a terrible thing to have happened so you're not going to do that but in a dream or an out of body oh yeah now that gives you a set of experiences that you can't get or you couldn't get easily here without

2:54:52doing a lot of damage and hurting a lot of people it's collateral damage to your lesson you know well that's not good so in these other realities when you go out of body that's what you're getting you're getting an opportunity to show who you are and so free will is required then right free wills required consciousness is awareness free will with a choice I just say a choice but that means you have free will absolutely required but that's how the that's how the reality works so an out of body isn't such a big deal you're already out of your body you're a piece of consciousness this body's an avatar it's being rendered and it's rendered according to the rule set the rule sets what we call physics biology chemistry those are the rules that's what scientists do they figure out what the rules are and to the level at which this is rendered then you interact and you have choices but because of this being a multiplayer game the choices you make affect others

2:55:52just like they do in world of warcraft if you decide to run away and let your buddies fight the fight you know the demon well that's a choice and now they have to deal with that they got one less person you know to help them fight that that demon so the choices you make affect others if you're not very good about dueling with demons then you're not that big of help so if you're a level 40 or a level whatever they are now you know then you're you're very welcome on their mission but if you're only a level three then you can stay home because you're only not going to help us very much anyway that's Louberry Jenkins for everybody yeah so that's that's the game this is a virtual reality game so what happens with my avatar dies when your avatar dies the consciousness doesn't die it's just a piece of consciousness playing that avatar when your barbarian dies you don't die and where a warcraft I think you have to run back to the graveyard and get all your you know get your stuff get your stuff you know or something but of course if the if that was the end you know

2:56:55if if you got to play once and your character dies you're out of the game on nobody would play the game that wouldn't be much fun now and then you wouldn't learn I mean the whole thing in world of warcraft you have to learn you learn how to use your tools you learn how to use your spells you learn how to use your equipment you you know you get smarter and more capable as you go well that's like that here and you can't do that in one turn so you have multiple turns they call that reincarnation I call it in my book an experience packet so you get experience packet because what you're trying to do is make better choices lower the entropy of your consciousness which lowers the entropy the whole system's consciousness because you're a part of the system so anyway that's the name of the game and you can't do that in one turn you have to do multiple things so what happens is that when you die that avatar is gone now it's dead flesh and you find yourself aware somewhere else

2:57:58am I still my individual self you're still your individual self but your memory of what you just experienced your memory of that life that you just exited starts to fade just like dreams fade you know you wake up with a dream and the instant you wake up it's really clear a minute later it's a little fuzzier 10 minutes later you barely remember the strong points and after that you really don't remember the dream other than that you had it and that it was nice or something so that's the same way once you die you start forgetting all the stuff that you were just involved in in that past life like a dream where does that consciousness go consciousness just exists now you're not in this virtual you're not getting a data stream anymore right okay so there is no places within you know in this physical world this we think there's places you know there's Chicago and that's different than you know Las Vegas and they're different places and if you go to Chicago you

2:58:59can go to their planetarium and look at because they have one there and if you go here you know you can go to Las Vegas but these places are information there are no places in consciousness there's just a simulation of places right that's all just a simulation place so where do they go isn't even a good question there is no place to go they're just suddenly now an awareness that is not getting a data stream other than I'm here where am I and some people will see a tunnel because a tunnel then allows you to move you can't move unless you see space you know see something going by you on the side you're not moving so that's why you have tunnel the tunnel is there to give you the sense that you're making progress and you're moving toward the lights or towards something else or towards some other beings and the whole process is one that just gets you to let go okay the dream

3:00:07is fading you had a lot of worries you left three kids behind and you know have all the stuff going on but that just starts to fade and you relax but it takes a little time and if you were really obsessed with something that something may hang on there longer because you were obsessed with it and that may take you a little longer than the process through but if you're not really obsessed then it all falls away like a dream and then you just kind of see well what's the going what's that over there and somebody's going like this you know and you move toward that with an intention and then you get the the tunnel effect because you need to see the stuff going backwards as you move forwards otherwise you don't feel like you're going anywhere and so you get there and there's somebody there that's very friendly you know I make a joke I say it's like a Walmart greeter you know you're walking to Walmart and somebody says hi welcome to Walmart you know come on in and that's about

3:01:08all they say you know but they just welcome people you're a Walmart greeter where's Bob now first Bob I kind of want to see him a couple of times right after he died yeah but I didn't really know Bob's doing whatever Bob does now Bob was a was a uh I got another plant he was here to do what he did that out of body happened to him because he was supposed to write the book and a hundred million people were supposed to read the book and have their minds open to a bigger reality that's what he was all about that's why he had to write it even though as a business executive that wasn't necessarily a clever thing to do he knew that he needed to do that so he kept the diary his books is basically the diary he kept on what what happened to him so I looked at his once I would been around for a while I was able to see uh ors and do all those kinds of things all the paranormal you know we learned to do and we learned to do them precisely so I looked at Bob one day and looked

3:02:09at his or and he was a very developed human being and this was what he was here to do no question he was going to introduce that to all these people and that was his thing that's what he did he did a good job of it now all the things he said in his books were his experiences just like an out of body you know I go out about it's my experience and he didn't always you know it's your interpretation of the data that becomes your reality he didn't always interpret things correctly he mostly did he told you what he saw very well you know he was good about that and he remembered well but sometimes he got information and he didn't get it right because his own background his own kind of history and the way he put things together in his mind put it together in a way that wasn't what was intended that's what happened with this big loose thing I don't know if you know about that but Bob when he had that out of body the next day he came down and says I want to share something with

3:03:12you I just had this out of body yesterday and it's very disturbing he was very disturbed by and he said I found out that we humans are are what did he say we create a thing called loose and when we create it there's other beings that are kind of above us in this hierarchy that need loose so we're like farm animals we're here in this reality creating loose and we're created here to do that and it's really we're being farmed you know we're like cattle and they're taking the loose that we create and that's what they need they need to slush so he got that that was his own interpretation what he had asked is what's the bigger picture what's what's going on here in the bigger picture and that's what he got he came from a farm family in the Midwest that's the way he interpreted what they were trying to tell him is that there is a bigger picture the larger

3:04:14consciousness system and as we evolve and as we grow up and make our choices it grows up too so we're part of its evolution so we're growing and as we create love not loose as we create love and caring the whole system grows and that's what this was all about this was made to help us you know evolve ourselves and evolve the whole system so they're trying to tell him the big picture and he turned that into we were here doing the things we did because it served this other thing well yes it serves the larger consciousness system it serves us too but in his farm boy mentality we were cattle and these were the the other people in the system and we were you know we were just being that we were the herd of cattle who were making loose for those people he missed he missed the point and he did it differently and at the time he told me he was kind of upset he

3:05:16he just found out that he was a cow and a cattle and we were creating loose for some other race of people what did you tell him about that well he said after he told it to me he says everybody you think about that and I was probably 30 maybe then early 30s like 20s and I said yeah that's okay with me I said I don't see the problem I don't see there's a really big problem he says you don't your your livestock and you're feeding this other bunch of people with it with the things you do with the motions you have he said emotions you know the motions and it's emotions if your motions are anger or your motions are love you know that's that feeds it and I said well there's there's nothing I can do about that and if there's nothing I can do about that if that's the way it is then you know I'm not going to worry over things that I have no control over if that's it that's it I'll go about doing my life and living it the best way I can and somebody else benefits from that

3:06:18you know it's not a problem but Bob was really upset he was bothered by it and he put it in his book with the Lucian so on and now you see all over the place Bob was as loose there's evil beings waiting for you don't go to the light and this is the prison planet and you get all this stuff all this fear junk a lot of sci-fi is spun off of his that yeah yeah so that's that you know when you have fearful people they see and hear fearful things it's just that's the nature of the way people are so if you're fearful Bob was fearful he was not generally fearful he just misinterpreted that because he was a farm boy and when he got the there's others up there that are benefiting from the things we do down here you could see that the farmer and the cattle you know and that was it there's some else up there the larger kinds of systems up there it's evolving because we're part of it as we evolve it evolves because we're pieces of it that's with two abstract and he didn't

3:07:19get that abstraction instead he turned it into a farm metaphor rather than that abstraction and that's what's been feeding the prison planet and never go to the light and all the rest of that stuff ever since it's been feeding off of Bob's story about the Luce so Bob was good but you know and Jane Roberts was good you know did Seth speaks and other Seth books she was good but she didn't always get things right either because it's your interpretation of the data that you get and Jane said a few things it was just wrong but she was trying her best to do you know what he could Bob tried his best to do it but you have personalities and you have backgrounds and you have you know things the way you interpret the data and it just gets lost and one of the things that Jane said as Seth was that there is no time the present in the past and the future all happened together and you know it's all one thing well that's because that people made some errors in interpreting

3:08:23relativity with you know speed of light being constant and so on and they had this comes of light and everything was contained within the cone and and you know so the future was already there contained in the cone and that's not the way it worked that was just them making up a story to try to explain some idea that they thought they had so but it was it was all the rage everybody was talking about how there was no future there was no past it was all and since everybody was talking about that and the physicist the high priest of western culture because they said it then it was the truth yep so now when she was getting this stuff from from you know from her from Seth it had to come out that way because that's what the physicist had already said and she wasn't going to book the physicist because they're the high priest and they tell everybody what's true so she knew that had to be the answer because that's we had already discovered that they're all the same and whatever so when she asked Seth about that that's exactly what came out was exactly

3:09:26the way she heard it and knew that it was and but she repeated all of that too but that's not because that's what Seth told her that's because that's what she interpreted it to be because she already knew the right answer if you already know the right answer then you tend to take things and turn it into the right answer that you already know that's just the way people are sure why should believe something it's hard to change yeah so anyway so you look at these books and mostly the Seth's books was very good and very informal with their bits and pieces of it that weren't same with Bob's books mostly he did a very good job but their bits and pieces of it was his his own interpretation of the data he received you know he he had these circles of people who were stuck between moving on and whatever because they were religious and that religion kept him it's not like that that's not the way it is but that was his idea religious people are stuck in their beliefs it's not about the bigger reality or understanding there's a stuck in beliefs

3:10:29well in that case they're not going to go on very far because they're stuck in their beliefs so he imagined this circle of people who were stuck in their beliefs in it for him it turned into geometry of a big circle around earth and so that was just his best interpretation with things that he knew and he felt you know it wasn't that that's actually the way it is it's not the way it's not like that it's a virtual reality and you don't have circles of people who are stuck and it's here for people to grow in a system tries to help you grow because if you succeed it succeeds this episode is brought to you by TickTack lace up and get your game on because the TickTack lineup just got a new teammate doctor pepper TickTack this new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mince and when two iconic flavors come together the result can only be iconic score big try doctor pepper TickTack today

3:11:36the other popular interpretation of quantum mechanics with it with physicists is now they didn't like this idea that you needed an observer no they didn't especially conscious observer until they're like okay can we find an alternative so you know one of my favorite physicists from the 20th century is a guy named John Wheeler mine too yeah he was a great delayed choice yes delayed choice and so he not only was it Princeton down the hall from Einstein but he was also the supervisor PhD supervisor for Richard Feynman yep there's a Nobel Prize winning this is just a Caltech and many people know about him from the challenger explosion was that the challenger Columbia challenger in 1986 when he's he like took the little old rings and put them in ice water and said like let's look at what happens to this right yeah yeah and this was much later in his career he also wrote the paper this is an interesting story here about how quantum computers came about but we'll come to that later for a time and so Wheeler was a supervisor for him but also he was a supervisor for a guy named Hugh Everett who was looking for an alternative and he basically said that all

3:12:41these wave functions get separated and that would kind of mean that there's multiple worlds where each of these things happen so that became known as the multiverse or the many worlds interpretation right is the more formal representation of that and Einstein didn't like it no and Boer Niels Boer was you know the other kind of really big giant at the time didn't like it either and so Wheeler said take out this stuff about there being multiple physical worlds just stick to the math and so Hugh Everett needed a job and he's like okay fine I'm just gonna finish this dissertation and go off and get a job in industry but that became the basis for you know a lot of great science fiction today why do you think Niels Boer and Einstein didn't I know that they didn't really like quantum mechanics but they accepted it why didn't they like many worlds interpretation because you can still have your block universe theory yeah just in a different universe I think Einstein just didn't want to go there for the implications because you know he had his the universe God does not play dice that's right that's true with the universe and that became you know it wasn't so much

3:13:47that he didn't like he didn't it wasn't that he disagreed with the math that was in the dissertation he tried to disprove and he couldn't yeah he couldn't and then he didn't want to get into this the interpretation element of it uh and then Boer didn't like it because it was different than his Copenhagen in fact it's called the Copenhagen interpretation because Boer didn't want Boer was in Copenhagen and he had his group of people around him and a bit of the ego and of course yeah okay happens a lot in science yeah uh and so that's the other big interpretation of quantum mechanics what do you land so this is what's interesting is when I looked at both of those and I said okay what are the problems the first one you know they don't like that they need a conscious observer uh there's no way to define what this collapse is that's the real mathematical problem is it's like it goes from all these possibilities to this one and nobody really knows how it works it's like magic it's like magic there's this old cartoon comic where it's got a professor

3:14:47on the board writing a whole bunch of equations step one and then over here step two and then step three's got the answer and his professor or the other professor is sitting there saying can you tell me more about step two and step two says then a miracle occurs that's what happens that's what happens right uh but if it's a video game well then there we have a mechanism for that observation we have a player we have an actual conscious entity that exists that is that causes the collapse to happen based upon the choices and what they're seeing and so that's where it ties to the video game now the big problem I mean there's great you know superhero movies probably seen the the spider man meme where you've got like that sure share the three spider man's Andrew Garfield Tom Holland and who's the third one uh Toby Toby McGorvey yeah they're all pointing at each other well you know they're coming from a different branch of the multiverse right that's that that's what we're told that's how you can have all these different stories um but the problem from a uh a science point of use they say it's not parsing money and what that means is it requires too much you're creating

3:15:52a new world okay not just every day not just every hour not just every second but at each quantum determinacy point and each choice which would be at the plank scale at the plank scale and maybe even at the plank time at the plank time which uh you know by the way the plank scale is another reason why I think you know same physics is showing us that we're we have pixels in the sounds like pixels it's the smallest measurable distance and plank time sounds like framerate exactly a clock speed or framerate yep which is and now we we do know that universe is probably quantized scientists don't agree on what their time is quantized but it might be and that would make sense if it was inside a simulation most people have bought like you know a MacBook or uh that's like X megahertz or gigahertz probably they don't know what that means what it means is hertz is is instructions per second or cycles right per second and so you can only do so many and you can't really do anything in between that minimum time right and that's where the plank time is is like the the amount of time

3:16:56it takes speed of light to get through the plank length basically and so if we have a minimum uh pixel and we have a minimum framerate or a minimum clock speed of the processor of the universe then everything is a multiple of those and it's more likely we live in a um in a pixelated type of reality which is like a computer program that's a lot of universes that's a lot of universes so so it's not parsimonious and you have to create all these universes right but there was a physicist named Amit Goswami he wrote uh what are you right it was the the conscious universe I forget his book but he wrote he wrote a few really he's a physicist who writes about consciousness as well and I was listening to one of his talks and you know somebody says something that you kind of store away and you don't think about it till later and he said look those probabilities aren't really probabilities in the sense that we think of them he goes it's what would happen if you did it again if you kept doing it a bunch of times right then that's the then it's a

3:17:59probability yes right so where does probability come from by the way it was a mathematician I don't know if it was Pascal was one of these French mathematicians to be able to pee and some guy was rolling dice he was playing dice and he asked him hey can you quantify you know uh how I can win it dice so he came up with this idea he said if you have one die a single die single die said die as six possibilities he called them six possible futures I mean literally use that term and he said so your chances of getting one of those futures if it if it's evenly weighted you know we're in Vegas so if you used a gambling analogy if it's properly weighted is one out of six but you can't really have a probability until you've tried something multiple times and like you know you could try the coin flip once but you're not going to get real probability unless you flip it a bunch of times right and so a lot of times a lot of times you need to get up to a certain number right and then it got me thinking well if it was a simulated universe

3:19:00you could actually run as many times as you wanted you also didn't have to infinitely run every single possibility okay why because you would basically if you think of it as a big tree that just keeps expanding this is the the problem with it being infinite you could prune large parts of the tree like the universe has something called fine tuning which is if a certain number of constants like the gravitational constant or these other constants were like slightly off by like 1% the planets would fly apart right the galaxies wouldn't stay together and there's like so many of these those people can look them up there's at least 12 and there's probably more than that sure but it looks like the universe is fine tuned and well if you were running a simulation you would run it multiple times and then you would basically prune the tree for all the versions which don't have life so there's no need to go down that tree that's right again thinking like a computer scientist you're gonna want to run all your processors on everything you're like that's

3:20:01not interesting to the simulation so let's just focus on this subset of possible right so you tune avogadro's number until it's just about right yeah or most constant or speed of light yeah it's like this is what works right throw that stuff out right exactly and you tune that stuff and that leads to what I like to call a simulated multiverse so this is why I ended up writing the second book on simulation which is now the older book because I have the second edition and also I interviewed Philip K. Dick's why it's a test of Dick because I dick yeah wow what was that like it was really interesting I mean it was over the phone and but she had so many stories you know oh wow she's still around and you know she would tell me these stories and and I interviewed her because the Wachowskis who made the matrix were inspired by Philip K. Dick of course so in fact she told me I asked her what would you know what would Philip think of the matrix and she said well first he would like it that's the first reaction would be this is awesome because it's very similar to his

3:21:01ideas and his second reaction was he'd call his agent to see if he can see these guys and get some of the money probably good for using his ideas I think their deja vu explanation came from his talk in Mets in 77 yeah so she encouraged me to go watch that whole talk and there's a written version everyone should it's amazing and there's a famous line from it where he says we are living in a computer programmed reality and the only clue we have to it is when some variable has changed some alteration occurs in reality and so when I originally I was just interesting the first part of that which is we are living in a computer program reality and if you see that video the camera pans away from him and looks at the audience and everyone's like what I love it they think they're going to cease a sci-fi author talk and they're getting this philosophical it's so important that talk it really is and in fact they show this woman who's like turns out her name is Joan Simpson she was his friend she went with him to the conference and if you look at the written version of that speech the rest of the speech is there but that line is not in the written essay

3:22:03so he must have added it in we just notes wow flying over there and but if you read the rest of the speech what he what the next line is we would have a sense of reliving the same moments of deja vu that such an impression is a clue that at some point in the past a variable was changed and reality was rerun and so he claimed to remember a different alternate path and his most famous book while he was alive was actually the man in the high castle it won like all these awards back in 1960 and for those who don't know they may have seen some of you may have seen the the Amazon series which is a really good series by the way I talked to his wife she said he would have loved that that adaptation but in that Germany and Japan have one world war two and they end up you know splitting America between them and you have kind of a police state on both sides and he came to believe that that was a real timeline that actually happened

3:23:08where the access powers won the war and now we're on a different timeline and he said at some point all the memories came flooding back to him he was writing a sequel to the book too but was he that's what test that told me and she said but once he got all the memories he didn't want to go there because he there were such bleep memories in that time yeah he said he saw it he said this happened yeah but somewhere it's the variable was changed exactly he called it the programmer and counter programmer and so you know he used this idea of orthogonal time which he compared it to a bunch of suits in the closet you can try on one suit you can try on the other suit but what he also said so so test encouraged me to read his speech and I looked at that speech and I said this is really about rerunning the simulation and changing variables each time he also said we would need to find a group of people like him who remember an alternate time and of course back then it was hard to do that but now we have this thing called the Mandela effect and whether you believe in

3:24:10the Mandela effect or not it's a great way to talk about this idea that maybe we are having multiple possible history well let's talk about that because people love it Mandela effect never worked on me until there is one that got me otherwise that Bernstein bears all that fruit of the uh well you tell the story yeah what's a Mandela so the Mandela effect is when some subset of the population remembers a different version of some past event or some object in the past and the it's named after Nelson Mandela because some people remember him dying in prison back in the 80s and of course he didn't in our timeline right he actually you know at least from prison you became president South Africa wouldn't know about peace prize and died I think it like 13 or 13 they remember his funeral on TV yeah they remember details yes we need his life taking over the yes see they remember all of these and then Fiona Bruehm was the blogger who Queen this two she was actually at a Star Trek comic con convention in Atlanta called Dragon Con and

3:25:16it was a Star Trek uh panel and the panelists were like actors from the original Star Trek series and if you know your Trekkies you know they know they're they know their stuff they know their stuff for the opposite and and and people in the audience were like don't you remember the episode where Captain Kirk did this Mr. Spock did that and maybe Mr. Sulu did that they're like no we never shot shot such an episode and multiple people in the audience remembered this and so she started to think is it possible that there are other ones who she set up a website and started to explore geez to find all these different Mandela effects now someone came to me and I always thought it was just faulty memory by the way same uh if you asked me what it was I mean fine a letter changed here a word changed there uh but a friend of mine from MIT who typically you know a lot of my MIT friends don't get into the stuff they're very kind of left-brained about these things he said you know if you go down that rabbit hole see your simulation theory ideas are a pretty good way in which this could actually happen and so these you know between Tessa talking about it Philip Kadek

3:26:18talking about it and him talking about it I couldn't get this out of my mind that if you reran the simulation you would actually end up with slightly different versions you could have small changes like little things changing or you could have big versions and then if you try to merge these multiple timelines some people may have the memories from one of the other timelines and so I categorize these into different categories you know things like letter changes this one then there's things like movies is another category the events the moon breaker one is the one that got me oh yeah so yeah the moon breaker one that she doesn't have braces but yeah remember the braces right it was jaws who had the steel teeth right meets was her name dolly dolly meets dolly and I remember that too you remember the braces I remember the braces too I mean that was the whole point that what it got me yeah and and so there's a few like that that really got me and most people know the Bernstein bears one uh and what I like to say is if someone has proximity or significance to it and they remember it differently that's more interesting to me

3:27:20than just some random guy remembering different things so there was actually a blogger online I'm forgetting her name now but people can find it in the simulated multiverse book where she was a journalism student and she flew to South Africa to interview Nelson Mandela and he was too sick to be interviewed so she went all the way there and she came all the way back then she graduated probably back in the 80s now and was working for NPR so again she was in the news industry and she heard that Nelson Mandela had died and now you're not going to get that wrong if you went there to meet the guy no you're not going to say oh that was the other black guy Steven Viko in which is what the standard explanation most people remembering him wrong I can understand it and so if there's more significance and each time I look at these events I find people who have more significance so one of my favorite ones is Tiananmen Square remember that the tank boy yep and the tank what do you remember I remember it the way it happened that the tank went around him that's how I remember it as well but I started asking people about this and there's always a certain

3:28:25percentage that remember the tank running over the guy and they remember it as one of the bloodiest things they saw yes on on the news like they were shocked they were actually showing that and so usually it's like 10 to 20 percent in a group I was on a panel once that kind of attacked in the desert Paul Heineck and a few other people around it would be two of the people were like what I absolutely remember him being run over so I asked at a recent conference and I always do it said does anyone remember tank boy being run over nobody raised their hand so I thought okay this this audience doesn't have this Chinese woman comes up to me afterwards and she said she lived in Beijing at the time and she remembers him being run over there she didn't raise her hand and didn't want to say it so that's the first time I met someone who had more proximity to that specific one and similarly there are people who are Jewish who remember asking why are the verna stained like why are they Jewish bears to their parents now they're not going to get that wrong no the rest of us might get it wrong sure um and so and then there's the Bible verses okay have

3:29:26you heard of uh Isaiah with the lion and the lamb do you remember that yes I know the verse but there's a verse about the lion will lay with the lamb yeah that's not the verse it's not the verse but that's how a lot of people remember the lion lays with the kit the leopard lays with the kit the wolf lays with the lion the leopard with the kit yeah so that's a mandel effect that's a mandel effect because people remember the lion and the lamb lay together and there are even like you know people with wall calendars that show a lion and a lamb and say Isaiah yeah that's not it 111 and again it's one of those things that people take a little more seriously with their scripture right because they remember so and I thought okay well maybe they're looking at two different translations of the Bible they're looking at you know one that happened to translate it but there people are telling me no in their king James Bible it used to be a lion with a lamb and the physical object has changed so recently I met someone who's actually another blogger and podcaster named Alexis Brooks and she said she went to her Catholic priest and she said do you remember the lion the verse with the lion he goes yeah the lion will lay with the lamb and she's

3:30:30like okay now go look it up and she looked it up and he's like what so you have a Catholic priest again somebody who's closer to it you've probably seen athletes using those inflatable compression boots after games those are normatech from hyperice the massage gun everyone's carrying that's hypervolt the heated vibration wraps for sore knees backs and shoulders that's venom together they help athletes and active people recover move better and get ready for what's next whether you're training hard or simply trying to feel your best every day hyperice has a recovery solution built for you visit hyperice.com today that's hype.com hyperice recovery trusted by the world's best. The quality of research institute probably the most important group on the planet now who's really studying the mathematics of the DMT state and the topology

3:31:36and the dimensional structure and all of that stuff he describes entities doing things that a human can't do mathematically like painting surfaces with certain colors so there's something called the four-color theorem which states that whenever you have a surface that's got different shapes all perfectly tessellated like a map you can color every shape with with four colors so that no two shapes are but with the same color so it comes back to the idea of coloring a map of the count of all the countries if you only need four colors to paint every country with a different color so no two countries have the same color kind of biting up against each other it's called the four-color theorem you can do it with any kind of map but the more complex the map becomes the more cognitively demanding it becomes eventually it becomes impossible for a human to actually color these surfaces but what he noticed these entities doing was having these

3:32:38quizzically complex often higher dimensional surfaces with strange topological structures and these entities painting these surfaces with four colors just perfectly as if demonstrating their abilities and he said I couldn't do this it would take me hours or longer to do what they were doing in a fraction of a second and repeatedly they paint the surface and then they would reset it and then paint it again and then do it again repeatedly and most people if they saw that they would go that was you know crazy or that was weird or that was beautiful but they wouldn't understand what they were actually looking at I wouldn't no no no no no the would I no the would I I knew I know would I I was I was surprised by all the math in traces of other and in half than series there's a lot of math in it there's a lot of math and I think you need you need the math to so we say maths in the UK I can't bring myself to say math you need the mathematics to really

3:33:40kind of to understand the DMT state because it is entirely different it's not this simple three plus one dimensional world that we live in it's very very different and being able to go in there and say how it's different why it's different what's going on and said this is why I said earlier you send in specialists into the DMT state you send in people like Andres who can say look what these entities are doing is not just beautiful or strange it's impossible for a human brain to do or far beyond normal human cognitive capacities even in the most intelligent of people like Andres and so those are the kind of things you see where the entities are actually betray their intelligence displaying it they're not giving you numbers or giving you blueprints for the time machine I don't think it works like that but they're they're doing things that you just have to recognize are beyond human capabilities and and in that way you you know that adds another piece of evidence that we're dealing with something that is beyond the human. That's very interesting

3:34:46um can you give us just a simple example of how the maths apply to this work? Yeah well so I'm just trying to get a foundation before we get into Don Hoffman okay yeah well we can't get into Don Hoffman because the mathematics definitely applies yes so so I've been kind of following Don Hoffman Donald Hoffman professor cognitive scientist university of California Irvine and for decades and he has this mathematical model that he calls conscious agent theory it's what he calls conscious realism which posits that consciousness is fundamental and that reality consists of and only of conscious agents interacting so everything we see and perceive is the result of the interaction

3:35:46of these conscious agents and he has this precise mathematical model um from which he can kind of boot up physical reality so rather than this failed program of assuming that matter is fundamental and trying to boot up consciousness from dead uh inert physical matter um he's going in the opposite direction I think is the correct one assume that consciousness is fundamental try to get the appearance of the physical world from consciousness and from the interaction of conscious agent we start with a conscious agent which is very important. I think he got his math to work in game theory like it like the math is legitimately works. The mathematics legitimately works and it's it's incredible really that he starts with a very simple kind of minimal assumption model of a conscious agent a conscious agent is an agent that can do basically three things it can perceive other conscious agents it can make decisions based upon what it perceives and it can perform actions

3:36:50um which affect other conscious agents so you have to get you this kind of network emerges of conscious agents who are all interacting via perception and what we see and what we observe is this interface we never perceive the conscious agent network directly because it's far too complex effectively this infinite network of conscious agents what we see is this interface that allows us to interact in adaptive ways with the environment everything's an icon everything's an icon right so this is the fitness before truth method this is fitness before truth um and so that was his original idea that he's been developing and testing various ways over the last few decades and most recently uh he started uh he came up with this what's called the trace logic um the mathematics are a little bit sophisticated I don't want to get too much into that um I'll get out of my depth pretty quickly as well um but what he found is that using this new model um

3:37:51he could actually kind of boot up um not just the world as it appears towards but he could also boot up um relativity so he could explain within this conscious agent theory um trace logic model um the wide time dilation and contraction of the high speeds and all this kind of stuff that comes from relativity uh which we thought was kind of fundamental to the way his kind of space time works actually he can get it from just the interactions of conscious agents you can get you can get you derive the Schrodinger equation I mean it's incredible stuff yeah uh just from basic conscious agents and so um just a few months ago actually I got an email from a guy called gas bar who's working with Don he's he's um kind of built this thing called the the trace institute based upon Don Hoffman's work to kind of start to build Don's legacy because Don Hoffman's kind of disorganized in some ways and there's all this stuff that floating around in papers and interviews and other stuff there's

3:38:55no kind of uh kind of properly organized archive and an institute to actually follow on to his work and kind of pick up the mantle so to speak so gas barred he's also been following my work said to to Don you should you should read this guy Andrew Galley more you know read his book Death by astonishment because a lot of the ideas in here you know I talk about intelligent agents in a very neutral way don't talk so much about aliens or spirits or that kind of thing I'd say we're dealing with some kind of intelligent agent in the DMT state Don Hoffman talks about conscious agents so gas barred quite rightly noted that there seemed to be some overlap here um there is perhaps some cross fertilization between our different ways of looking at reality there is but there's some conflict as well there might be some conflicts um we we can get into um but gas barred said you know would you like to meet Don Hoffman um Don would like to meet you we can have a discussion and see

3:39:58where where there is that overlap and so um uh we met online and straight away I said should we write a paper on this see see if we can see where that the connection is and I it was honestly and I I don't say this lightly it was one of the most profound few months of my life um and this was a preprint just last month I think right preprint we published just last month um and it was I it was I I kind of had this working model of what DMT was doing that it was um it was kind of gating access to some other source of sensory information but I never within the physicalist framework there was no way for me to explain how does information come from somewhere else it's not coming through the normal sensory organs where is that information coming from I didn't have an answer to it until I started working with Don's model um so in my second book which we just spoke about reality switch

3:40:59technologies I developed this concept called the world space so remember that your brain is always constructing the world uh and so there's kind of a vast state space of all possible worlds that your brain can construct right normally we sit within this very small region what I call the world space I call this the consensus reality space um but there are all these other worlds world moments a world is just everything you're experiencing at a particular moment and your brain is constantly moving between these states if you take this vast landscape all possible world moments I call that the world space and normally we sit within this very narrow region it's like a well and attract a basin within this world space the consensus reality space uh and that's the normal waking world those are the states that represent the structure the content and dynamics of the normal waking world what DMT does as I postulate in reality switch technologies is it perturbs the brain and it pushes it into a different region of this world space landscape and this is where the

3:42:04DMT worlds are represented but what I didn't have in that model was how information comes in to actually kind of modulate that you know uh modulate that experience it was just how does the brain go from building the normal waking world to the DMT world so then I started working with Don's model and a mathematician called Nifer Hermenson who's absolutely pivotal uh in making this all the mathematics work and we basically we we we probed the model we said okay if normally we we only sit within a narrow very small region of what Don Hoffman calls the experience space it's the same idea a conscious agent has this vast set of states vast numbers of different experiences and we sit within this very narrow region of this experience space it's the same idea as the world space um but what Don Hoffman's work has is kind of the experience base is simply a set of states

3:43:07all possible states that a conscious agent had could have all possible experiences um but what sits on top is this mathematical structure uh called a Markov kernel which is called the quale kernel what that does is it gives dynamical structure to the experience space what that means is you're in this state now what are the probability that you'll move to this state or this state or this state so it gives that dynamics it determines the dynamics of uh how you move through uh around the experience space and as I said you normally we will sit within this very small region of the total experience space which is the adaptive region uh where we we experience the normal waking world it's very thin very very small uh location within the the experience space um and that's determined by the quale kernel which is involved within that region of the experience space to create the world that we experience however if you can perturb the brain uh perturb the conscious agent you can knock it out

3:44:11of this region of the experience space into an entirely different region uh where the the normal rules that are basically uh applied by this quale kernel they no longer apply um so you you enter a a type of experience a type of being within the world that is completely different right this is purely abstract at the moment we're not thinking about DMT you enter in a region of the experience space where the dynamics are completely different the macovian rules the macovian dynamics that determine how you experience uh the world within this region of the experience space are completely different now the quale kernel that sits as I said that's determining these dynamics is actually composed of three different kernels the the perception the decision and the action kernels so there's three parts so together they determine not just what is your experience like within this region of the experience space but how are you interacting with the larger the broader conscious

3:45:14agent network what kinds of other conscious agents can you uh interact with can you perceive because in this region the consensus reality space you only can only interact with a very very limited number of conscious agents but in this region of the experience space we proposed you might be able to interact with agents uh that are normally completely imperceptible so that's a look at where modern physics ends and the unknown begins some of what you heard today is settled science some of it is still just the hypothesis waiting for evidence if any of these conversations grab your attention go check out the full episodes links are in the description every guest you heard today went a lot deeper than these clips until next time be safe be kind and know that you are appreciate oh

3:46:15I believe the idea is an area 51 a secret code inside the Bible said I was I love my new apples and paranormal bones as well as mirrors in some saying the like I sure but then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth my friends and it never ends no it never ends I feel the crap got and got stuck inside my home with them chaos truck I've been only to a well do stand look you've been the moon landing alone on a film set I would shout people there the rest well it is just for the smiling man I'm told and his name was called

3:47:19I can't believe I'm dancing with the bitch and the fish on Thursday night with day I'll be right high so The mouth man's side and van the solar storm still come to a god's heart The city underground Mysterious number stations planets are phoned to Bracket stockade and weathered off watchers found In a simulation, don't you worry though

3:48:21The black night satellite told me so I can't believe I'm dancing with the fishy Headrofical visitors ain't not sweet they changed too And what am I gonna be up to tonight? Oh I am a white and white again to the truth So the world's on me feet all through the night Headrofical visitors ain't not sweet they changed too And what am I gonna be up to tonight? Oh I am a white and white again to the truth So the world's on me feet all through the night Headrofical visitors ain't not sweet they changed too

3:49:24And what am I gonna be up to tonight? Oh I am a white and white again to the truth So the world's on me feet all through the night Headrofical visitors ain't not sweet they changed too You've probably seen athletes using those inflatable compression boots after games Those are normatec from hyperice the massage gun everyone's carrying That's hypervolt the heated vibration wraps for sore knees backs and shoulders that's venom together they help athletes and active people recover move better and get ready for what's next Whether you're training hard or simply trying to feel your best every day hyperice has a recovery solution built for you Visit hyperice.com today that's h-y-p-e-r-i-c-e.com hyperice recovery trusted by the world's best

3:50:25You've probably seen athletes using those inflatable compression boots after games Those are normatec from hyperice the massage gun everyone's carrying That's hypervolt the heated vibration wraps for sore knees backs and shoulders that's venom together they help athletes and active people recover move better and get ready for what's next Whether you're training hard or simply trying to feel your best every day hyperice has a recovery solution built for you Visit hyperice.com today that's h-y-p-e-r-i-c-e.com hyperice recovery trusted by the world's best