A Case For The Book of Enoch, Watcher Angels, Ethiopian Mysteries, & The Greek Septuagint w/ Nelly Van Sickle

0:00And welcome back to the show. My guest today is pastor. He's a researcher and he's also the host of the Dancing Tilloster podcast. I've really enjoyed our previous conversations. So coming to us once again, he's a return guest at this point. I'm excited about that. I'd like to welcome Nelly Van Sickle back to the show. Nelly, thank you for being here, my friend. It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me back. I'll be a frequent flyer as long as you allow me to. So I appreciate it. Well, that's what I like to hear. That's what I like to hear. And I'm glad you said that because I don't want to rush this today. We have

1:06a general idea of what we want to discuss. I want us to take our time to focus on the details. If we don't cover anything, we can do a follow up episode. We can be down with that too. You can be a frequent flyer in that case. All right. Let's go. So where I'm at before I get carried away, tell everybody about you and your show almost for now. All right. Now, all right. Well, me and my show, I am the host of the Dancing Tilloster podcast. I live up here in the Pacific Northwest. I've always had an interest in the strange and paranormal supernatural all that step even before I became a Christian and a pastor and those things. So always fascinated by that stuff. And I wanted to do two things with the show. I wanted to equip Christians to think biblically about these things, to not be so dismissive of them. I be a huge fan of Michael Heiser. And he helped give Christians the

2:06courage to talk about these things. And kind of a legitimacy. He was a brilliant mind. He was a scholar in this. And so really emboldened a lot of Christians to talk about these things. And I also find it, I don't mean this disrespectfully to anybody out there, but I do find some of the talk about it is just like, hey, that's a weird thing. Let's just talk about it. And I'm like, well, no, let's try and tie it to scripture. I try to tether it down and give people a way to think about these things biblically. And so that's what I wanted to do for the Christian. But I also wanted to use it as an outrage because up here, they love big foot. They love the occult. They love aliens, all that stuff. Right. And so I was like, well, I'm going to use these topics. Things I already enjoy to talk about and discuss. I want to use them to build a bridge with the people up here that are not. It's very unchurched up here. And so I use these topics as a means of building a bridge to other people. And I can talk to them like other Christians won't. Other Christians will be like, all that stuff is all nonsense, ignore all that stuff. And me, I'm like, no, I'm with you. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just want you to know that what you

3:08think is benevolent is not to that that that the Bible reveals the truth about these things. And so yeah, that's that's kind of what the show was was created to do. Yeah. And I've been having a lot of fun coming up on two years now. October will be two years. Oh, awesome. Congratulations. I started in October as well of 2023. I started recording in October, but I didn't release until December. So yeah, I started in October as well. My first subsequently my first episode was on Halloween night. It wasn't planned or anything, but that's it's not up. You know, it was the first episode. It never really. It was up for a little while and I got taken down. But anyway, started in October. But that's why I like to talk with you like you're the way you approach things. I like how you you're open minded. You're an open minded pastor. You're an open minded Christian. But you also like to go in and and look at the details and know why you believe what you believe. Right. So so we can to have regular conversations with people about the weird stuff because people

4:11increasingly are wondering more and more about the weird stuff like we were talking about pre-record like president tweeting out stuff about aliens, you know, and that sort of a thing. And you know, we don't have to go there today, but like that opens up a lot of doors that puts things on people's mind. And I but I think as far as as it pertains to what we're going to talk about today, there are answers for these things. I agree. And they are in the Bible. And I think it helps to look into the book of E not to we can get into all that. And where I'm at right now is I'm doing some research. A lot of research half of it. I haven't really disclosed yet. The other half of briefly kind of talked about in reference. But I'm finding all this crazy stuff that's like history altering stuff. And I'm putting together an episode on that right now. But it has gotten me back into some of the extra biblical texts. And it's gotten me back into looking into the

5:12Nephilim, the Bible, of course, some works that I think go back to the biblical page of Yarks. So that's going to be coming up on here and in coming episodes. But I think today we should make a case for the book of E not. Okay. I think that's where I'm supposed to take this to place. So that's what we're going to do. Let me say this. There's one book I read every day. And that's the Bible. I occasionally refer to E not I've read E not a couple times at this point. I don't read E not every day. I refer to it occasionally. I read the Bible every day. So we'll start with the Bible. But I just want to say, you know, the E not help me understand the Old Testament. It helped me understand I think the whole current situation in general of what's going on down here. There have been modern claims made on very big platforms, denouncing the very things about E not that have opened my mind to the truth about our past. So I want to build up to all

6:14that and have you chime in with your expertise, of course. I asked you all in here for a reason. But the very things that strengthen my spiritual walk with God, I'm seeing now that there's a sort of an anti-E not campaign out there that's starting to swell. So I want to address that. But you know, we should start with the Bible, right? Because it's in Genesis. I think it helps. I think E not helps. But technically, do you need it? I mean, it's in Genesis 6, right? Yeah. So Genesis 6 is one of the most controversial passages in the whole Bible, specifically. It's like four verses that everyone kind of gets their underwear and knots over. And the various interpretations of those passages, there have been three or four types of interpretations. But one of the first things that I covered, I kind of felt the same way when the show started two, almost two years ago now, that was where I wanted to start was Genesis 6. I wanted to lay a foundation for

7:19the supernatural worldview, again, very influenced by a hyzer, several other books. I highly recommend on this topic. I mean, Dr. Tim J. Feet did a work called Fallen. And it's huge. I mean, it's like his dissertation and it was massive. And he goes into some of the stuff we'll talk about today. He makes kind of the Hebrew grammatical arguments for like, hey, you're trying to explain away the historical interpretation of Genesis 6. Not only does that, historically, the supernatural view of that passage is the oldest. And then linguistically, the argument of, oh, well, it just means falling ones. And it's like, actually, no, it doesn't. But I mean, so the passage, I don't want to talk around it. We'll actually, I want to read it. I got it. Let me. Oh, you got it there. All right. I'll read the ESV. And then if you want to read what you got, oh, I always use ESV. So I'll just follow along with you. You do the honors, sir. Oh, okay. Well, then, all right.

8:19When, okay, I'm going to go Genesis 6, one through five. Sure, man, would man begin to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born unto them. The sons of God saw that the daughters were attractive. And they took, as their wives, any they chose, then the Lord said, my spirit shall not abide in man forever for his flesh. His day shall be 120 years. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came into the daughters of men. And they bore children unto them. They were the mighty men of old, the men of renown. The Lord saw that wickedness, that the wickedness of man was so great on the earth and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And yes. So those five verses alone, I did my first two episodes on. And I probably, I probably read about four or five different books in the composition of those first two episodes. Genesis 6, one guy, maybe it was Tim Alberino.

9:21I don't remember if it was him specifically, but maybe it was him, but I know it wasn't me. So I'm not expressing an original thought, but something I heard and I wanted to be clear. And that is that Genesis 6 is kind of a rose at a stone. You had mentioned it's something that helped you understand so much about what was going on down here. I think it really does. I think I don't want to fall into the trap of anytime there's something unexplainable. Up must be Nephilim. So I try to avoid that trap, but I also refuse to allow this trap of all. It doesn't mean anything. And these were just normal guys that laid with normal women and had normal kids. And I'm just like, no, that's not what that just said. And that's not what the historical understanding of that. And that's why Enoch, it's kind of sidebar. One of the reasons Enoch is so important, even though it doesn't fall into the same category as scripture, as the canon of scripture, it shaped how the early church viewed these passages. It lets us know one how they viewed them. But when they're quoting that book,

10:24Jude Peter, I mean, they're quoting from this book. It's not signing off on everything it said, because I always point out like Paul, Paul quoted secular poets in his work. He's not saying everything those poets wrote was from God. He's taking all truth as God's truth. So he borrows some stuff from these secular poets and he says it and he says how true it is by under the Holy Spirit. And when you got the apostles, you got Peter, you got Jude, they're quoting from a lot of the New Testament writers use the language of the book of Enoch. But of course, the reason Enoch comes up so much in this discussion, Genesis 6, is because it goes into so much greater detail about this particular event. And for those that say it's just ignore that not to disclose too much, but oh, it's just quote unquote comic book theology. It's like, well, but it's not though. It's it has had precedence historically when people saw like even the, we'll start breaking down the text a little bit. Verse 2, the the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive.

11:27Again, if you haven't read the unseen realm, my doctor Heiser, I know you and I have are familiar with it, but anyone out there that hadn't read it, you need to read it because he's going to make far greater arguments and he, I mean, it's a whole book's worth. So you can hear the things that he says, but this phrase, beneath Elohim or beneath Elohim, the sons of God, that's an exclusively supernatural term. There is no way around it. Whenever it is being used in the Hebrew throughout the Old Testament, it's always referring to supernatural entities. Call them Elohim, call them angels, call them whatever, technically better understand them as Elohim, you know, inhabitants of the supernatural realm. So sons of God, Job is where it comes up the most. And whenever it talks about God gathering the sons of God, he's in the divine throne room. He ain't gathering people that look like you and me. So sons of God is in the Old Testament harmonitically, like I used to teach a harmonitics course back in Texas. It was at the high school level, not the collegiate level, but still, like harmonitically, we use the Bible to interpret the Bible.

12:29So if you weren't, we're wondering, hmm, what was the author of Genesis 6 talking about when he said the sons of God, what do we do? We look in other parts of the Bible and we look in contemporary literature from the time if it's available to try and gather an understanding of what a particular word or phrase can mean. Well, going to the Bible alone, forget Enoch, the Bible alone, the sons of God, Benet Elohim or Benet Chalohem, like that phrase is exclusively supernatural. And so those that hate this worldview that want to quench it because they have fallen victim of naturalism and scientism, when they want to explain that away, you know, famously they like to explain it away as the quote, sons of Seth, that these are the righteous sons of Seth and the daughters of men are the evil daughters of Cain because well, they're brought up somewhere in the general vicinity. So it must be talking about them. I'm like, no, that's, that's your ice-segeeding that text. You're reading meaning

13:30into the text from your naturalist worldview. You don't want to accept that this is supernatural. So you're trying to force a natural meaning to it. Yeah, I mean, it is. Elohim is exclusive, like you said, to the supernatural realm. And also, if you go to the step two agent, specifically about the sons of God, they says, what is it? It says, when man began the multiply on the face of the land and the daughters were born unto them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attracted. That's, they see them, they come down, those sons of God in the step two agent are called angels of heaven. There you go. So that means that when there, there are 70, historically, we believe 70 Jewish scholars got together and they were translating the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek. That's essentially what the Septuagint is for those that are unfamiliar. The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament scriptures. And it was 70 scholars they're getting together. They're familiar with Hebrew. They're familiar with Greek. They come to

14:33this term, but they're Elohim and they want you to know this is supernatural, right? And, and, by the way, the Septuagint, for those that think it doesn't matter, I mean, this is what we believe, that Jesus and the apostles would have had available to them in the first century. So a lot of their quotations that they give of Old Testament passages are more similar to Septuagint renderings than some of the other stuff. So it's, it's very interesting. So the Septuagint, you can't say it doesn't matter. It really does. Not that at the end of the day, when we talk about the doctrine of inspiration and that the Holy Scriptures are inspired, we are referring to the original revelation from the Spirit of God to the hand of men, the hand in mind of men, not that he used them like a robot or anything, but as he breathes upon men, that first breath there, that's the most inspired. And everything we've been working with since is a translation. Many of them are translation of a translation. I'm not saying don't trust your Bible. I'm just saying that every translation as well is an interpretation. Anytime somebody comes to a word, even trunk, right? If I say trunk,

15:37if I say I stood on the trunk, you still don't know what I mean. Is it a trunk of a card? Did I climb on your car? Am I standing on a tree trunk that fell in the woods? Am I at the pool? And my shorts fell? And I'm now standing on my trunks. My swimming trunks? trunk, that word, if I say I'm standing on the trunk, you need additional context in order to know what I mean. And I'm just talking about English and I use the simple meaningless word like trunk. Well, when we're dealing with ancient languages, dead languages, you know, it's a very complicated work. I'm no scholar, right? I'm not an expert in Hebrew or Greek. Heiser was, though. He was an expert in Hebrew and this term, sons of God, exclusively supernatural throughout our Old Testament. Even if you reject Enoch, you shouldn't reject at wholesale, but even if you don't want the Enochian interpretation of this, you still got to deal with this as an exclusively supernatural phrase that's being used. So the sons of Seth, by the way, that whole sons of Seth stuff really grinds my gears. I don't like it. I don't like the sons of Seth interpretation. Not just because

16:41it is so naturalist, it ignores the supernatural nature of the Bible, but since when is righteousness passed on biologically? If anything, the Bible tells us the exact opposite. Just because you had a godly mom and dad, don't mean you're going to be godly. And if you want me to accept this characterization that the sons of Seth were these righteous men and that the evil daughters of Cain made them full, one, you sound sexist because you're saying that, and I'm no liberal, but I'm just saying like, oh, so all the guys were righteous, but the women, let's blame them. That'll win over some people, right? So that's erroneous. And then on top of that, again, righteousness is not passed on biologically, right? I love, we're going to be talking about the book of Samuel later on. And Samuel, he was one of the godliest men in the whole Bible. I mean, this guy is incredible. He's the guy closing out the period of the judges. He's really the first prophet god raises up in this new office, a probably, you know, since kind of Moses, you know, so

17:42Samuel's a big deal. And one of the things that broke my heart, the first time I read through the Bible, because you and I were talking pre-show about, you know, reading the Bible all the time and reading through the Bible for the first time is an amazing experience. Man, Samuel broke my heart because here's one of the godliest men in the Bible and his sons were dirt bags. They grew up and the people, one of the reasons they cry out for a king, yes, they had very selfish reasons. They said, well, everyone else has a king, so we want one so we can be like the surrounding peoples is what these realites said. But they also said, hey, Samuel, you're not going to be with us forever. And your sons ain't like you. And they were, they were taking bribes, they were taking offerings. They were, they were doing some trifling stuff. So Samuel, super godly man, his sons, they were awful. They were awful. So, so to say that the sons of the righteous sons of Seth laid with the wicked daughters of Cain, righteousness is not passed on. Last last kind of point though, if you're trying to convince me that the sons of Seth are the righteous sons of Seth, then what are they doing with the evil daughters of Cain? If you know what I'm saying, you know, why are they going, why are they hanging out in the quote unquote, that part of town? If you want

18:46me to accept the characterization you've created of these men, you don't want to do that by saying they immediately were so weak that just because these women were attractive, they went and laid with the daughters of Cain. And so it's like nothing about that makes sense to me. And also it insinuates here that their children were giants as well. So there's something else. So where it says here, the Lord said my spirit should not abide. And man, forever, for us flesh, the Nephilim were only earthen those days. And also afterward when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, they brought children unto them, it's saying those children were the Nephilim. Go to the Seth toagen. And instead of Nephilim, it says giants. Yes, yeah, Gagantes, it's very clear. It's whenever that term Nephilim shows up in the Old Testament, it shows up two times specifically. And both times once it's Gagantes and the other ones Gagantes, but both of those are giants.

19:49It's referring to giants. That's why I don't like when they try to say, oh, it just means fallen ones. Actually, know that that characterization doesn't work grammatically. And I'd mention Dr. Tim Chaffey. Let me pull up my notes regarding the, because again, I know Hebrew scholar and he did a whole dissertation on it. There are those that want to insist that the word there, Nephal, is the Hebrew verb meaning to fall, that Nephilim derives from Nephal. Many believe that and have believed it since John Calvin. John Calvin popularized it. A lot of well-meaning pastors and scholars and theologians have repeated this idea for a very long time. And one of the things I love about what Dr. Chaffey did is highlight how wrong this idea was. Again, a massive book on just four verses and he demonstrates exactly why that understanding that Nephilim is not from

20:55Nephal. He lays out with Hebrew grammatical grounds. Here's how he lays it out. I'm going to read some notes here in Hebrew. When you turn a verb into a participle, there are predictable patterns. If you wanted to take Nephal and make it an active participle, meaning those who fall, you would get no felim, not Nephilim, you would get no felim. And I'm going to say it very obnoxious to highlight the differences grammatically. So those who fall, you would need to read no felim in your Bible in Hebrew in Genesis 6, not Nephilim. So the vowels would be different there. No felim actually does pop up in the Bible, but not where you'd think. It shows up in Ezekiel 3227 and it's talking about slain warriors going down to Shayol. So if you wanted a passive participle, those who have fallen, you would get na fu lim, not na fi lim, but na fu lim. A word that,

21:59by the way, doesn't show up in the Bible at all. So it doesn't, we don't get those who fall, that's a different word that shows up in Ezekiel 32. We don't get no fu lim because that word doesn't show up in the scriptures. Neither attempt produces the word that we get. Nephilim. So if you're taking na fall and trying to use it in the various means, you don't get this word. You don't get it. So what does Nephilim actually mean? Well, we talked about it. It means giants. The singular noun is na fiil, meaning giant. And you can see it in sister-semedic languages, Aramaic, where na fiila means the same thing. It means giant. So what we've talked about in the Septuagin a few times, but the two, Nephilim shows up in Genesis 6 and in Numbers 13 and in both times it's either gigantes or gigantas. So when those 70 scholars were getting together and they came to Nephilim, when they wanted us to understand how that has been understood by the Jewish community,

23:00leading up to the time of Christ, they reached for this term that means exclusively giants. They did. And the fact that we ignore that is mind-blowing. I know it is. And I'll just, I'll jump back to the other phrase, we touched on sons of God there and just reiterate the Hebrew there. Again, the Hebrew for sons of God, where it says, and the Nephilim on earth in those days and also when the sons of God came into the daughters of men. And that is the Hebrew for that is Baneahai Elohim just reiterating that Elohim is not people and it ain't semons or suffice. I mean, excuse me, the Seth, sons of Seth. It's exclusive to non-human spiritual beings. And it's been, you may have touched on this a second ago, but it's been used to get in other parts of the Bible to describe angels. So yeah. And this is just, we haven't even touched the enoc yet really. This is,

24:02exactly. This is just Bible. This is, we're giving, we're showing you what the Bible says in preparation for how the Bible backs up the inocue and narrative essentially. Yeah, right. And those that say, like, they try to divorce, verse two from verse four and say that the two things have nothing in common that that, well, these two people groups are laying with each other, but that doesn't mean, Genesis, verse four, six four has anything to do. It's like, are you kidding? It literally just said that this, that whatever you believe about the two groups, it's saying group A and group B, we're getting together because they found each other attractive, right? So, so why would you begin talking about it? And listen to the text one more time, the Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God, by the way, that when they're Ashir and Hebrew, it makes more sense. I'm going to read it a little bit differently. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward, whenever the sons of God came into the daughters of man and

25:03bore children to them. So, so that when Ashir is, is can also be understood as whenever. And that makes the verse make a heck of a lot more sense when you wonder, well, how on earth after the flood, do we see these Nephilim back in the Holy Land? How are they, how are they popping up in numbers? We have the, we've had the answer here all along and I did a whole episode on this. It says that the Nephilim were on the earth in those days. What days? The days when the Bidne, Elohim were laying with the daughters of men, those days and also afterwards. So, so the author knows that they were there pre-flood and post-flood and how did it happen? The text says, whenever Ashir, the sons of God came into the daughters of man, they bore children to them. So, the text also takes these two groups and reminds us it's their union that is bringing about whatever the Nephilim is, right? And that's why I don't like the interpretation of simply fallen ones. I think that has, again, because it then were agreeing with the opponent of the text that's trying to attach Nephilim to simply a human group of

26:07fallen individuals. They want to attach it to that verb, Nephilim, and it doesn't, it's not, it's no feel. It has to do with giants. It doesn't have to do with fallen ones. And that's why I refuse to kind of give into that understanding. Were they fallen, of course they were, because it's these evil, these rebellious sons of God that laid with these daughters of men and it's this unholy union that creates the Nephilim. So, yeah, they're fallen by default. It's just not the Hebrew verb that's used there or we would have a different construction of the passage. Yeah, this is, it's all building. I think, and I've talked about this on another episode, and I've broken this down when you read through the first couple verses here, Genesis 6, the verses are building upon each other. Verse 2 is giving you more information about verse 1, as verse 3 is giving you more information about verse 2 and verse 1. And you get the verse 4 and that's bringing more, you know, context in. It's building, it's telling a story. It's all there for reason. You know, there's not

27:11a coincidence that whenever it jumps to Nephilim. And I like what you said, I want to interject one more thing. Yeah, I want to inject one more thing because you just said something that really stuck out for me. Verse 5, we tend to stop at verse 4, but I liked that when you initially read the passage, you read, verse 5, because verse 5 is a part of the narrative. It's equally a part, and it ties into exactly what you're saying, this idea of building. I think Genesis 5, let's us peak further behind the curtain to understand that our understanding here is exactly the correct interpretation. This is what I mean. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Why say that in the middle of this narrative? I think it's clear. I think that when you look at the flood narrative, I don't know about you, but I know many Christians out there that have gotten to the flood narrative, trying to do, I'm going to read through my Bible in a year, and they get to the flood, and they're like, man, God, I mean, did you just have a divine temper tantrum and just wipe out the world, and they have this very infantilized view of God and just makes him out to be this petty tyrant.

28:14And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, if you accept the supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6 that we're presenting here, you're seeing something absolutely unprecedented occurring, and it's occurring for the first time. We always focus on the rebellion that happened in the garden, but highs are like the highlight that there were actually multiple rebellions in the Old Testament, and this was one of them that these powerful angelic beings were looking down here, and so something they wanted, and they took it. They came and they took it. And again, when we go to the New Testament, the New Testament furthers this argument that this understanding is accurate, and they build the interpretation on the back of Enoch. So we get a two-fer. We get an acknowledgement that Enoch was influential in first century theology, but we also get this idea that this understanding that we just laid out, even without the Inoki in text, we just laid out this understanding. They further it. They take it a step further and say, hey, when those beings went out of their proper domain, their proper boundaries, what does that sound like? An angel,

29:20a powerful Elohim, a powerful supernatural entity, laying with a human being, that's a violation of boundaries. That's precisely what the New Testament authors are talking about. And so when you talk about that whole sons of Seth nonsense, or even, oh no, it's just using royal language to talk about these groups. It's like, no, it doesn't hold up harmonitically, linguistically, and it doesn't hold up historically because this supernatural interpretation, this is another reason they don't like Enoch, is because it demonstrates that ancient believers of these texts, that's how they understood it. And when we're dealing with hermeneutics, it's like, you don't look at a passage and say, what does it mean to me? No, you have to get an accurate understanding. What did it mean from the original author to the original audience? That is how you seek interpretation. That is how you properly breakdown pull meaning from the text, right? Exegesis, isegesis. Exegesis is when we pull meaning from the text,

30:21isegesis is when we read meaning into it. And so as we're exegiting, we're pulling from, okay, well, sons of God, what does that mean? Well, what does it mean in other places of the Bible? Oh, man, that sounds like, but to force in, well, I think it's talking about Seth, even though he's not even mentioned there. And so if people are going to see why we're going on about this soon, because we're going to show you what some of the people that are saying out there on big platforms that don't necessarily have their facts straight. But before we do, I'm going to take it a step further. I'm going to read, verse six and seven. Okay. Why not? Yeah. So I'll start with five. We read five before about I'll start there. The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth. And that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. In the Lord, verse six, and the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth and it grieved him in his heart. Verse seven. So the Lord said, you see, this is building, this is still

31:26building off of the previous verses. It's a verse seven. So the Lord said, I will plot out from the earth the human beings I have created people together with animals and creeping things in the birds of the air for I'm sorry, I have made them. But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord. And then it goes on the verse nine and it starts to list the descendants of Noah. I'll be check that out. Can you read verse nine as well? Absolutely. These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blaneless in his generations. Now I had three sons, Jim, Hammond, J. But yeah. So that verse nine is also very telling. Because as God is looking down at this disaster that we're making, that human beings, cohabitating with these fallen sons of God, right? It says something very unique about Noah, the language that's used there in the Hebrew is also very interesting. When it's communicating his

32:26his blamelessness, his spotlessness, it has with it genetic connotations as well. Because when you're talking about something, there's, in the law, the law separated. Remember how they weren't even supposed to mix fabrics and things together? They weren't supposed to mix certain concoctions. They weren't supposed to mix certain fabrics in the law, right? And so when we're talking about the uniqueness of this man, there happens to be genetic implications with all this impure mixing that's going on. Verse nine, these are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blaneless in his generations. Yes. Yes. The idea can also be spotless spotless in his generation, meaning all these other people, the human race was being polluted with this, I'll say demonic DNA. I mean, they're cohabitating with these fallen Ben-Echa Elohim, these rebellious Ben-Echa Elohim are cohabitating

33:28with human beings. That's why this sealed stage just told us a couple versus earlier. Yes. What was going on? And it necessitated something unprecedented, hence the flood. It had gotten so widespread. That's why I said, let's keep going over like verse five. It got so bad this pollution of humanity. We were already bad enough because we rebelled in the garden. It continued to grow. Look how long it took us before we started killing each other, not very long, right? The first, you know, you got the first two kids that come out of Adam and Eve's union and ones killing the other, right? And so this happens and us very early on after our departure from his presence, right? But we see after this impure mixing takes place, what does God say about the world at that time? Every intentions of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. It's redundant on purpose because the author is trying to communicate how bad it was. It's like saying that every thought was always evil and it was always evil continually. Like it's being anointingly redundant to let you know how perverted things had gotten. Well, how did they get so bad? Well, we just spent four verses

34:33finding out how it got so bad. And the fact that it didn't stop, it didn't stop because it says that they were on the earth and those days in the days of Noah, Jesus also said, it'll be like the days of Noah again, right? But the Nephilim were on the earth and those days and also afterward, whenever the sons of God came and the daughters of men, what does that mean? It means they did it again. They did it again. That is how there are Nephilim in number 13 when the spies, the Israelite spies go into the land of Canaan and they come back and they give a bad report. Well, well, the majority do. There's two faithful ones that everybody knows about, right? Joshua and Caleb are saying, hey, God says, go take it. Let's go take it. But the other spies are like, are you kidding? They're the sons of the Anachima. They're the Nephilim are in the land. We are like grasshoppers to them. What a unique phrase to use. Now, I'm not one of the ones that goes fully knock. I never go fully knock. I'm just kidding. But when I, I, I, I, I never, I don't believe

35:39personally and I'm willing to be persuaded. Otherwise, I just haven't seen compelling evidence yet. But as far as like, are these, are they biggest skyscrapers? Is that the kind of giants we're talking about here? I personally don't think so. I do think that they were gigantic. I think as the text says, they were the mighty men of renown when you get into Heracles and those stories and things like those are Nephilim stories. Man, every culture has Nephilim stories of these men of renown. Many of them are portrayed as heroes, but who's portraying them as heroes? pagans. Those that have rejected, you know, the one true God, right? So, oh, man, I'm looking at it right now and some of the things I was referring to that I'm researching right now, I'm stumbled across this story, this thread that the Greeks in their art, that artwork that they displayed on their bases and temples is Heracles, but it's retelling the story of the sons of Cain. No, to them, and that they thought that they believed that the line of Cain was their ancestors.

36:43And it's crazy that they, you know, there's a lot to break down there. I don't want to get into it right now. Right. They think that, you know, because it goes on here, you know, you get into, once you get to Genesis 10, it starts talking about shem ham and japeth and their descendants. And it's very clear if you focus on the line of ham, which is something I've done, that there is, it seems like this line of Cain, whether physically or just, you know, I think it's really the line of Cain, but personally, but anyway, you see it start to show back up, whether it's figuratively or literally, right? So, because you got Nimrod, you've got Kush, you've got Cain and who produces the Cain and nights. These are like these, these bad boys of scripture and they show back up. Well, the Greeks looked at them as if they were their, their ancestors that, that came through the lot, that came through the, through the flood, that they were still like ham was somehow connected

37:47the Cain through Nama is what they believed. Oh, okay. So, not a daughter of Lumek. And I'm sorry, I'm not trying to get into the weeds. No, you're good. You're good. It's just continues to get, you know, we're doing we're doing we're doing we're doing we're doing but I'm glad we, so we just did 30 some 30 35 minutes just the Bible, just the Bible, just the Bible, just the Bible. So now I think we should show you why we think the book of Enoch is is backing this up. And should I rephrase that or what do you think? No, I, I, I, no, I think that's a, a nice, it shows us again that this is how it was understood historically, but by historical believers of the Old Testament, the book of Enoch, the, the way that I try to describe it to people is it is a narrative, right? So when we think commentary, many, many out there, if you have a Bible, you probably have a Bible commentary, maybe you have a commentary Bible where you have your text up top and you got some notes at the

38:50bottom that give you some ideas about what it is that you're reading. We, we tend to those those genres are very distinct, right? We have the text that we'd read and we know where the commentary is, imagine biblical commentary that is wrapped in narrative. And then you, you're, you're close to what you're dealing with with Enoch. Enoch, do I, do I think it was really written by the guy that walked with God and then was not the guy way back in Genesis that, that, that, you know, got his own personal little, little rapture, you know, got, got taken up personally by God. Did he really write it? It's pseudopigraphical. Back then to write a literary work and borrow somebody's famous, somebody's famous, their name and slap it on there, that was a common thing. Like that's weird for us to hear, but that was a thing back then. So it's like, if I want people to pay attention to this, then I'm going to take these ideas that are circulating. I'm going to put them in the mouth of a very important person. And I'm, and that's how we're going to lay them out, right? And so

39:54what makes Christians uncomfortable with the book of Enoch is, is one, it's not divinely inspired. It does have things in there that are that are, that are a little out there, because I don't think it was ever intended to be understood as, as inspired. I see it as a commentary. I see it as a commentary wrapped in fantastic narrative. And the parts that I will put a stamp on are the parts that I can defend biblically. Anything else, I just hold with an open hand, right? There's certain stuff that I'll hold on to. For example, Enoch tells us what happened to the Benet Elohim after they rebelled against Yahweh. He judged them. He, we know he flooded the earth, right? So the human beings that took part of this rebellion, eventually we know a flood came and wiped them out for this rebellion. But Enoch let us know what happened to the Benet Elohim says that they were confined, that they were locked away. Now where have we heard that as New Testament believers? Peter and Jude talk about this stuff. Where did that idea come from? Straight from Enoch. They

40:58talk about Peter. It was a Peter specifically. He uses Tartarus. He talks about a place underneath the Tades where Tartarus and Greek mythology was where the Titans were locked away. So you got that home. What's a Titan? Sounds like a giant to me. You know, it's like so these ideas are connected. So I've got a couple side by side here showing how Genesis 6, first Enoch, Jubilee's and Jude line up and some parts of Peter, you know. So for instance, and Genesis 6, one through two where it says sons of God, we talked about that. The sons of God take human women. Enoch 6, one through six says to watchers descend to Mount Hermann. Jubilee 5 says angels of God are sent to earth and take wives. Jude 6 says the angels did not keep their own position. Right? Mm-hmm. Genesis 6, 2, the daughters of men, first Enoch 7, watchers take wives and defile

42:08themselves with them. Jubilee 5, angels take wives from among the daughters of men. Jude 6 through 7, Jude compares their transgression with sexual immorality. Boom, yes, what's out of me Gamora. Genesis 6, 4, Nethylm on earth, mighty men. Enoch 7, 2 women bear great giants. Jubilee 5, one through two says offspring become giants. And Jude, I don't think touches on that one. So I'll skip. Okay. All right, Genesis 6, 11 through 13 talks about the earth being filled with violence. First Enoch 7, 3 through 5 talks about giants consume humanity then turn against creation and one another. The book of Jubilee 5, 22 says the giants become violent and corrupt the earth. Second Peter 2, 4 through 5 says, well Peter connects angelic sin with the blood generation. Mm-hmm. And what's fascinating is there's no other angelic rebellion to

43:15speak of. Is it God did not spare angels when they sin but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness. And then in the very next breath Peter, you know, like you said brings up the flood of Noah. Why would he do that? Because there's a direct correlation with what he's what he's saying. But this idea of them being locked away in a place below Hades that was Enoch in. And here Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is being permitted by God to use that same language. So what is that doing? In the same way that when Paul quotes a secular Greek poet, God is signing off on that when you know we have it in scripture, right? That's something truthful is being communicated. So as Peter driven by the Holy Spirit is borrowing inoki in language and inoki in imagery. That's God signing off. He's affirming that that's what it is. I don't think there's any other way around it. Here it is. So first Enoch 10, 4 through 14,

44:17the watchers are bound and confined until judgment. Boom. I'll read the Jubilee's for fun. Jubilee 5 through 6. Angels are bound to the depths of the earth. Jude 6. Angels are kept in eternal chains. Second Peter 2, 4. And sinful angels are cast into gloomy confinement. Boom. There's another Peter here that correlates. So in Genesis 6, 13 through 17, the flood judgment is announced. First Enoch 10 says the flood comes because of corruption caused by the watchers giants. Jubilee 52 says the flood destroys the corrupted world. Second Peter 2, 4 through 5. Peter places the angelic sin immediately before now in the flood. Yeah. Yeah. And so with the case is so strong, it's incredibly overwhelming when you consider all the evidence together. Really, the only way one throws it out is prejudice to the supernatural

45:20worldview. That's really what it is. They don't, it makes them uncomfortable. And they start throwing up ridiculous arguments, some of the rebuttals that come from, well, but we know the angels and humans can't cohabitate. Angels are spirits and humans are flesh. So they can't cohabitate. And I'm like, read your Sinking Bible. How many times in Genesis did angelic beings did were there Elohim that wrapped themselves in some kind of flesh because we know like Abraham, for example, he gets a visitor, pre incarnate visitation of Jesus shows up with two angels, and they all eat together. He cooks for them. And they all eat together. So, so the text makes it clear that they're angels and those same two beings go on to Sodom and Gomorrah to do what utterly destroy a call down fire and judgment upon those. So, so you have two angels show up with pre incarnate Jesus to go hang out with Abraham. And afterwards, you know, there's that fascinating

46:20conversation, you know, about, you know, should I tell him what I'm going to do kind of thing and he reveals it to him and he kind of pleads on behalf of Sodom and Gomorrah and whatnot. But for this, just go, oh, go ahead. No, no, no, sorry. You finished. No, you're good. You're good. I was just going to say it just it just popped in my mind. Go for it. I forgot to explain. I'm I threw the book of Jubilee in for fun. That was that's something I'm looking at more right now with my research. So, I want to include it today because it's also telling the story as well, right? Right. And it's also like Enoch Dead Sea Scrolls. And what just popped in my head was Dead Sea Scrolls kind of proved that this that the that the Enoch watcher material was circulating before Christianity, right? Right. Because so I mean, Christians didn't invent this interpretation of Genesis 6. It was already spent around for a long time. Yeah, tradition. Yeah, the sub-tuogen makes that clear. The sub-tuogen predates Christianity, right? And so that terminology is used there.

47:22The Anokian literature we know was floating around in the first century because the apostles are reading it. They're quoting from it and whatnot. There there was something else that just I just thought of and then but we were talking about Jesus and I thought about the Jesus Enoch connections to Matthew 2624. Oh, it was a oh, I just remember it. The term watcher by the way, for those that don't like the term watcher, oh, that's only an Enochian term. And so we should that's not what that's not what the sons of God are. They're not watchers. It's like, well, wait a minute. Daniel, if you go into the book of Daniel, he uses the same terminology. He uses the term watcher for powerful heavenly beings. And so it's not a purely Enochian term. It is found in the Bible and it is connected to angelic beings as well. So so the watcher connection is there biblically as well. So so when you start to iron out too much of a hierarchy, it can be very difficult when you're trying to lock everything into like hard categories. I know we want to. I

48:26want to in my mind. I try to well, this must be here and this must be here. The text doesn't help us a lot in that department. We really we really don't know how many categories there are, how are they all classified? Are the classifications the same in both kingdoms? Like is the kingdom of light the same as the kingdom of darkness? What was what was Satan's rank before being you know cast out of heaven? You know, and and what is his rank now? It one could argue some have kind of painted this picture that the rebel in the garden was kind of like the first rebel, right? The the Nahaş, the serpent in the garden is kind of the first rebel that inspired other rebels. But when you read the Old Testament, it's really hard to find a quote unquote devil figure, right? When you're in the New Testament, the devil Satan like these terms are hard and fast and they're very clear and it sounds as if there's this single antagonist, right? And we tend to latch on to that New Testament language for the kingdom of darkness as though there's only one foe. But the Old Testament lets us know

49:30that no, we got a lot of enemies that the rebellion within the kingdom, the kingdom of darkness is vast. I like highlighting that because I think those that obsess over Satan and and just label everything the devil, the devil, the devil, the devil, the devil, I say, yeah, you're giving him, you're giving him too much credit. You are giving him too much credit. He is not on God's level. He needs, I like to say, and I use this language on purpose, he, he needs an entire administration to carry out what he's doing. He does in order to do what he, he does because he's not omniscient, he's not omnipotent, right? Uh, he's not omnipresent. He can't even be, now I'm sure Angelic creatures have, have, uh, means of travel that we know not of, but I know they're not omnipresent because only the one true God is only always, right? And so, um, yeah. And again, so the watcher term is biblical and those that are wondering like, why would we talk about any of this? Like, what's it got to do with Jesus? Heiser wrote on that too in a book called Reversing Hermon, um, because the mountain that that Enoch tells us, they descended down and made this deal. The 200 Watchers made this

50:31deal with the, um, with those, with those human men, not, they didn't make the deal with the daughters back then. You got to think of that culture, right? A, a, I believe it, Enoch highlights an exchange was made. And I find that fascinating because it makes sense within the culture. They didn't come down and, and simply, yes, it says to, they took wives for themselves. And some say, it means rape or it means that they just stole, they could have, but that word is also used of, of Isaac when he took a wife, right? So we can't say that that word always means rape. It doesn't. That's not what that word, it can, but that's not what it's implying. They had it used. They had an agreement. They, they worked out an agreement with them, with the men of the the sons of man in exchange for those daughters of men. The men spoken of in the daughters of men got information. They got technology. Enoch ate. Yes. Yes. And so, um, that's when we get into that and I've been, I've been doing a long, long series on the occult over on my podcast and, and,

51:34you know, chasing it through Egypt and Mesopotamia and even ancient Israel, how they were borrowing Canaanite things and even some of the concessions that Yahweh made to meet them where they were at, um, just been a fascinating endeavor. It's been something I've been doing for months, in and out of things, but, um, the, the hermon connection is important because many scholars and theologians today believe that much of what Jesus did, especially the, the, the, the mount of transfiguration, what mount was it? The text doesn't say, but a lot of scholars today are saying that that mount of transfiguration happened to be Mount Hermon, that he went up on and, and, and, that would make sense with the inocien background, this idea that, that the king of kings, the, the Lord of all would come and, and at the very point of rebellion, reveal himself in all of his glory, as if to say, I'm taking all of this back, starting here, starting where Yoll's rebellion began, I'm going to come and I'm going to be victorious. Uh, um, it's just it, it, it,

52:37it makes everything so much richer. Yeah, we can return to mount hermon, right? I think, I, because I want to get into this Jeremiah Johnson on Sean Ryan, please. Yeah. thing, uh, because, you know, and, and, and, and, yeah, I want to be nice to, yeah, I don't want to completely bash him, right? Not at all. He's, he's brilliant man. He's a brother. He's, he's, he's a Christian. So I don't want to like come down too hard on him, but I do think we need to correct some things because, you know, let's face it, we're in this new era where there's this new medium of podcasting and a lot of people are saying a lot of things behind these microphones. And a lot of people are listening to that and they'll hear something and they'll, they'll say, oh, that sounds good. I'm just going to go with that. They won't do any research. That's why I think it's important to set up a show like this and explain where we're coming

53:40from before we just, because we're not here to bash people and talk crap about people. There's a lot of podcasts, a lot of people talking behind microphones out there and all they're doing is talking crap about other Christians. And I'm not down with that. So I want it to be known loud and clear. That's not what I'm trying to do here. Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't do that, that, that whole thing. And there's a lot of people in the world today that are, are that, that are wrong. You know, we might be in the days of Noah. I think we probably are. So yes, with that comes a lot of people who are saying a lot of nonsense. So, but we don't need to be hateful towards those people, right? I agree. I agree. Honestly, I'm firm in what we believe and try to correct what we think is wrong. So that's where I'm coming from with this today just to put that out there. Because first of all, so, you know, and I'll play some of the segment here. Jeremiah Johnson, he's on a Sean Ryan. They're talking about the shroud of cheering. And he's brilliant when it comes to the shroud, by the way, he knows, he knows a lot about the, the shroud. And here's the, again,

54:41I totally agree with you. And I love that you said what you said. He's a, I consider him a brother. I've, I've talked about his work before and, and I tend to have a more polemical approach. I've softened it over time because I, I don't want to be known for being one of those negative individuals. Attack ideas. I don't need to attack people. I'm an attack ideas. And this man is probably forgotten more than I've ever known. So he's a brilliant man. He's a brother. I just think as it pertains to this topic, he hasn't done his due diligence. And I wish he would have just been quiet about it. I wish, when Sean Ryan asked him about it, I wish he would have just humbly said, you know what, not something I looked a whole lot in. But instead he came across his condescending insulting, you know, he wasn't very charitable in all fairness. He wasn't entirely charitable of the view and of those who espoused the view. But he wasn't cruel or anything. It was just kind of like, nah, man, that I think you're in a losing battle because a lot more people are returning to this particular worldview, which was the ancient view, by the way, people are recapturing that view because of

55:43its explanatory power and other areas of life, i.e. disclosure and all those other things. Like you said, we won't get to that this time around. But I think that's all connected. When you look at the abduction phenomenon and then you look at what the Nephilim did, it's interesting how both groups, ET and Nephilim happen to be concerned with our seed. Hmm, I see a correlation in that, you know, it's there. It's there. And so there's this explanatory. Yeah. Oh yeah, man. I told we might have to return to that. We might have to note it. Note that, sir. So, you know, for just one of the things I saw, there's a couple of things he did that that wrote me the wrong way. So I'm going to be honest here. Like I said, what I said, my intention is not to hate on him and not to match him. Absolutely. But there are some things I got to be honest too. Like there were some things he said that definitely rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, the first of all, we don't have to spend much time on this, but this is just something strange to stuck out to me.

56:43He he was on early on in the show and he was talking about his, how he's blessed to be in air conditioning and to stay in the nice hotel and to have a nice ride from the airport or something along those lines. Like first world amenities is what he's talking about. And he said, those come from a world view connected to the resurrection of Jesus. And I was like, that's weird. He says, here's the quote. He said, they come out of the cut and the rest of the resurrection. Like us being like sort of privilege in the western world. So I thought that that was strange. I'd like to ask him about that and how he got around that conclusion. But there's just a lot of little things like that in here that he said that was just like, this is this is odd. You know, and also like he goes to the world economic forum. And Sean Ryan actually asked him about that. He's like, you know, what are you doing with that crowd and all that. And he's like, oh, he's like, oh, you know, my wife told me. And I was like,

57:45your wife told you, like you didn't have any reservations of your own about going to the world like an online forum. But if your wife told you, you should have listened my guy. Like I think there's a reason God gives us the wives that he does. I mean, there are help me and there's been many times, my wife's one of the only people on this side of heaven that can tell me about myself. When she talks, I listen, not because she wears the pants, but because God gave her as a gift to me. And she's been the greatest gift. Again, second to Christ, he's the greatest gift I got on this side of heaven. And many times the Holy Spirit has used her to say, what are you doing? You know, so I think he should have listened because yeah, world economic forum. I mean, that's Dr. Evil. You know, I know. And I mean, in fairness, his point was I went there to share Jesus. So, okay, that's fine. You know, I know whatever. But you know, I we hope like, no, just there's just some little red flags, I guess is my point. I've looked into the creation of America and how we get our first world amenities. And you know, it's that I don't want to get into all this today, but

58:47they weren't Christians. I don't know how it came from a resurrection of Jesus type of world view. I don't know what he's talking about that. I just thought it was very strange. But we're not going to get into all that today. We'll get into all start to clip here. And by the way, good, we're going to get into the Enoch part course. By the way, this was a curve ball. So I'm going to play the clip here, but just know right before this, they were on a subject and it was like a little gap in the conversation, a little breath in the conversation. And Sean jumps in and changes the subject and throws him this curve ball. So that's where we're going to start. And I think it's interesting that he that he Sean changes the subject and chooses to take it here, right? He loves that topic. I think I think he's got a lot of people on there that touch on it. I think you wanted to just talk about it like in a relaxed kind of a way and just be like, hey, let's have fun and talk about. Yeah, I think he likes the topic, but here I'll start it. And

59:52yes, and we can posit and analyze it, break down and all that stuff. Sure. I'm handing what his balls, swaps need to have me back more often. I'll guide you by the hand. All right. I will make that happen. But I want to do the EVO being Bible. I've heard about it. Yeah, it sounds like there's maybe some conspiracies around it or something. What is it? What makes that so special? Why do people, why are so much interest in that? I don't know why to be honest with you, but I can share some speculative ideas. Those of us that know that study scripture tradition. I'm going to pause real quick and just say something. I forgot to build up and talk about the Ethiopian Bible part, but the book of Enoch is in the European Bible. So this is we're getting to the subject here. I'll back it up 15 seconds. You see what I'm talking about there with the subject change? Yeah. Well, and he said the most

1:00:53honest thing. You should have honest things. Yeah. But the most honest thing that he said though was like, I don't know. You know, he should have just stopped there. And he's like, what do you think about this? And he says, I don't know. He should have just left it there. But instead, it's how we got into trouble. But go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah. No, I'm going to start all over again. But I meant to I wanted to talk about Enoch or Ethiopia before we even got to this. But we're already an hour in and I want to go ahead and give people a reason for why we kind of talked about Genesis 6 and Enoch as much as we did. And we can maybe return it to Ethiopia because Ethiopia is such a unique place that preserved the book of Enoch, right? Right. So, but we can swing back to that. And I'll play this clip again. We'll get back to contract. Can you hear it? Okay. Mm-hmm. Great. I mean, what is it? What's what's what's makes that so special? Why do people why are so why is there so much interest in that? I don't know why to be honest with you. But I can share some speculative ideas. Those of us that know that study scripture tradition know that there are

1:01:58unique and interesting expressions of Christianity all over the world. The Ethiopic and Coptic Christians, which are so similar and even Syriac Christians have unique traditions to their Old Testament canon. When we talk about the Bible, we're talking about a library shot. And we're talking about a very carefully chosen library. But we're also talking about even a canon within a canon. Let me give you a couple of examples. And if you go to Bethlehem to the Church of the Nativity, many people miss this. And if you go downstairs, there's a little grotto. And that is where Jerome and the late fourth century translates what becomes the Bible of 1,000 years. It's called the Latin Volgate. Who knows like the manuscripts he would have had in the 300s to work from. But he tried the the lingua franca became Latin. It was Romanized. And he is going back and forth with the Pope because there are these books called the Apocrypha that the Pope really wants included. And they

1:03:04were important windows. I want to be very clear into seconds said 300 years, second century BC to 180. What we call the intertestamental period right up to the age of the New Testament. They were interesting windows into that time period. But they're not historical by any means. I want to make that very clear. I think he shoots himself in the foot right there. That last statement he said is erroneous. They're not historical. They are historical. That's what that's all they are historical. I would have agreed with them. He said they're not inspired, but they are historical. I can get on board with that. But to say something, they're not historical. What are you talking about? That's one of the only valuable things they bring to the table is I would argue that they're not inspired. The Holy Spirit did not come upon the man that wrote the Apocrypha, but the Apocrypha valuable historical documents that as he said, give us a look through a window into a particular period of time where God was silent. He was not speaking through prophets. I mean, we have 400

1:04:08years of silence from Malachi to Matthew. The Apocrypha gives us a look into that window. And it was a mess. It's not a great time. They are historical. They are important. But they're not inspired. We don't hold them to the same level as scripture. But they are still valuable. And it sounds as though one minute he's suggesting they have value. And then the next suggesting otherwise. And it's like, which is it? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, my guy. Like I love you, but you're killing me. Also, he mentioned Jerome there. And that would have been four century AD Jerome, as he's doing the Latin bogey in the four century AD. Maybe he saw them the materials to who knows what Jerome would have had to work with. He made the manuscripts. He may have had the book of Enoch because but my bigger point is is that the book of Enoch long predates Jerome in that moment. Right. And in fact, I found something

1:05:09Jerome knew about the book of Enoch. Right. And mention it. It's in De Vera's illustrious illustrious. It's that's Latin. It's on illustrious men in chapter four. Jerome in AD 392. He's discussing the epistle of Jude. He actually mentioned his book of Enoch. And he says, yes, Jude was using it as a source. I have the Latin here. Yeah, he says Judas father Jacobi Parvim, Quadis, Eptim, Cathas. I won't read the, I'll just translate it. It says Jude, the brother of James left a short epistle which is reckoned among the seven Catholic epistles. And because in it, he quotes from the apocryphal book of Enoch, it is rejected by many. Nevertheless, by age and use, it has gained authority and is reckoned among the Holy Scriptures. No, I just wanted to throw that in. He knew about Jerome knew about the book of Enoch. He may have been using it. Right. And it sounds like what he's saying there. I'm

1:06:14not familiar with the text that you just read. I'm glad you read it. I'm not sure if, if maybe there was some debate as to whether or not to include Jude because of the, yeah, allusions to the book of Enoch, but but in any case, it's there. It made the cut. And I think rightfully so. But yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. We'll get, I'll jump back in. Yeah. I just, yeah, great commentary on your end. I'm just going to back it up another 15 seconds. Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. 300 years. Second century BC to 180, what we call the Intertestamental period right up to the age of the New Testament. They were interesting windows into that time period, but they're not historical by any means. I want to make that very clear. There was a very interesting Jewish mystical tradition. And that's where we get Jubilee's and Tobit and Enoch, the book of Enoch. And so Jerome

1:07:14is going back and forth with the Pope. And finally, they compromise. And he includes the apocrypha as an appendix in the Latin completed Bible. A lot of people, you might not be aware that original King James version that we all love from 1611 actually includes the books of the apocryphids. 11 to 13 depending on how you count them. So it's a library. So that's context. Okay. So the Ethiopian tradition is interesting because they include first Enoch, which is 108 chapters. The first 37 of which are called the book of Watchers. And it gets really into some very speculative ideas about the Nephilim, which is this interesting race mentioned in Genesis 6, which by the way, those first few verses, and you can quote me on this in Genesis 6, is the weirdest part of the

1:08:14Bible. We do not have that much information. Of course, in Hebrew, if you know your Hebrew, in the fall is the verb that means fallen. So that's where we get this idea of maybe their demons, maybe they're just angelic beings. So definitely is the plural nap. Yeah. So we talked about that grammatically already. We talked about the Hebrew grammar. We said that in a fall. And again, check out Dr. Tim Chafee again. This thought did not originate with me. He did his master's thesis on it. It's a massive tone dealing with exactly this and a large portion of it talking about that verb, na fall. That John Calvin is the one who popularized this idea. And he holds a lot of sway in the Western church. But he's not the Pope. He's not. Yeah. I use that term intentionally, ironically, because he was in Protestant Reformation. But anyways, that is a popular idea that gets pitted and repaid it over and over and over by those that are

1:09:16against the supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6. He just, oh, well, we don't know what's there. I think he even goes on as Genesis 6 gives us almost nothing to work with. And I hate that idea too, because I'm going to do you know, Joel Moodamale. Yeah. So Joel, he was on Remnant Radio. And I love something. They were talking about this particular topic. And he made an analogy that really stuck with me. So I sold it, Joel. Thank you. But if I were to say to you, MJ is the goat. Now living in the 21st century, you could understand what I mean by that, right? What do I mean when I say MJ is the goat? I know you're talking about the guy wearing the jersey number 23 on it. Michael Jordan, right? Saying that he, yeah. And even the goat, that is a euphemism. That means what? Greatest of all time. There you go. So right there,

1:10:18because you and I living in the 21st century, living in the West, right? MJ, one of the most popular athletes in modern history, right? So we can just say those two letters in association with sports. And he is known, right? Now, now, but I want you to fast forward a century, though. If somebody's reading, listening to this podcast a hundred years from now, MJ is the goat. Wait, who's MJ? And why is he? What is he an animal? Is he a person? What do you mean he's a goat? It's like I'm assuming I could take ideas and I could smash them into a single sentence. I communicated that Michael Jordan, you even you started to talk about the number on his jersey. All of this information was wrapped into this little remark. MJ is the goat. And all of a sudden your mind starts filling in. Oh, Chicago Bulls. Oh, 90s. Oh, number 23. Oh, greatest of all time is an acronym, not an animal, right? And so we pack ideas in our words. And sometimes we do it a little more tightly than other times. And he was making the argument that Genesis six, these five verses

1:11:21that we've been focusing on today, he said, it's the exact same thing because the antagonist says, are you kidding me? You're going to, oh, how dare, Dr. Chim Chafee, write this much material on five verses. That's ridiculous. And it's like, no, it's not, though, it's an ancient author packed information that his audience would have been fully aware of. His audience was intimately familiar with the story. Why doesn't he explain, but it'll him. Why doesn't he explain Nephilim? Why doesn't he explain daughters of men? Because his audience already knew MJ's the goat. They already they already knew all of these terms. So he didn't need to bring a dictionary and a library to explain all of them. His audience was familiar. He could hit the high points and his audience would be nodding like, oh, yeah, yeah, we remember that story up. Yep. And and so for us, looking at those five verses, don't conclude because it's so short, it's unimportant. Like Johnston is suggesting, that's, that's, it was just so intimately familiar. His audience would have been so intimately familiar with it. He wouldn't have needed to go into a lot of detail. And, but what Enoch does for us

1:12:25is gives us an idea of what some of those ideas may have been. And I say may have been because even though, Enoch predates Christianity predates, you know, that first century time period. And we know that because the, you know, first century apostles were, we're quoting it, right? How far back does it go? We don't that's that's what's hard for us to pin down. Yes. And we don't even have any original manuscripts of the Bible itself. And that's not a dig at the Bible, by the way. I mean, how many how many men, how many petty tyrants have tried to destroy the word of God and the way that we have the majority, especially the New Testament, is we, we have tens of thousands of little manuscripts that we've been able to Frankenstein together and say like, Oh, man, God had preserved his word one way or the other. And we can trust that what was said by Paul and Jude and Peter back then is what did survive through various means that we've re had been able to reconstruct their original thoughts and ideas and the verses, right? But, but we don't have any originals of anything. Well, that's that's the thing. You know, they say Enoch is

1:13:29second temple literature. Yep. Five, 16 BC to 70 AD somewhere in that window. But hold on. They also say sometimes in the same sentence, these are copies copies. Yeah, these are clearly copies of copies. So they so are they second temple? Yeah, how far and that was the point I was making, as how far back does it go? We don't know. Yeah, the copies now Enoch, we know is ancient, ancient. I mean, he's around the time of Noah. This is pre Abrahamic. This is old. Yeah. So, so I mean, do I think it's the actual Enoch? No, I think there were stories that were circulating. I think Noah and his sons and daughters, when they came off that arc, they told stories. That's how humanity has always worked as we tell that's what I do on my show is I lean into the storytelling so much because storytelling historically, that is what we wrap our like even the

1:14:29term myth or legend, these words don't always mean untrue. That's why I think it was CS Lewis that called Christianity the true myth. And he's not suggesting that it's false. We immediately, our 21st century mind hears myth and we assume untrue. I think a lot of this stuff and I like to pick at these ideas on the show. There's a lot more there that is revealing a lot about the ancient world that we are divorced from and that we have learned to scoff at to our detriment, I think. And stories is how we carry our ideas. And Enoch survived the flood via stories. The pre-flood stuff was lost, but stories carried it through. We have it in imperfect forms. And some of those ideas survived all the way to the 1st century AD. How do I know that? Because Jude wrote them down because Peter wrote them down. How far back do they go? That's the question.

1:15:29That's a million dollar question. Yeah. I would say I would put this personally, this is me speaking. The consideration that I have on the table is that Noah did tell these stories and they did get passed down. I agree with you, but also there's indication that Noah composed writings as well and handed them to Shem. Yeah, there's a great possibility of that as well. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where it gets interesting when you start looking in the Ethiopia because Ethiopia, they didn't just have Enoch. They had the book of Jubilee as well. And that's a major clue because both those specific books are heavily associated with Noah. And there's some rumblings that those were in a at one point, Jubilee's and Enoch were in a book called the Book of Noah. There's rumblings about that, right? So I think that Noah did administer writings and I think he gave those to Shem. And wouldn't you know, there's an Ethiopian tradition that connecting Ethiopia itself and its history

1:16:34directly to the line of Shem. So it's like, so how deep you want to go with this thing? It's like, how did Ethiopia have these copies of the Book of Enoch preserve and for how long and where did they get them originally? And then you look in there, they have a national historical sacred book called the Kebra in the Gast. And it says that their kingship is descendant of Shem. So it's like, it's interesting because Noah gives writings to Shem. What writings, you know, could that be what we're talking about here? You know, I'm just putting it on table for. Yeah. And here's the thing, and I'll wrap it up with this. Chapter 20 of the Kebra in a Gast. It says, Ethiopian royal inheritance goes back to Shem from from the middle of Jerusalem and from the north thereof to the southeast is the portion of the emperor of Rome and from the middle of Jerusalem

1:17:36from the north thereof to the south and to the and to Western India is the portion of is the portion of the emperor of Ethiopia. For both of them are the seed of Shem, the son of Noah, the seed of Abraham, the seed of David and the children of Solomon. For God gave the seed of Shem glory because of the blessing of their father Noah, the emperor of Rome is the son of Solomon and the emperor of Ethiopia is the first born and eldest son of Solomon. It's a genealogy. It's saying they connect their national history back to Shem, back to Noah. So it's interesting that they would also be the ones to preserve the book of Enoch. And I know. And I something that's going on there. Yeah, I didn't know about the Noeic ties, but but the Solomonic ties. I mean, I was familiar with with those things. I mean, because I believe that's also where they claim to have the original Ark of the Covenant. I think there is a particular church there that they claim to have

1:18:38it. And I think they even let one of the what the queen goes to see it or whatever. I don't know. I'm not important enough to get an invite to that. But in any case, the Solomonic ties are very interesting as well. But if you're tied to Solomon, then obviously you would be tied back to Shem and back to Noah as well. And who knows? Maybe those ties are genuine. Maybe they maybe some of the the book of Noah, if that's what it was. Maybe even that could could have pseudo-peographical leanings as well. And that doesn't mean it's not true, right? It could just mean like once they began to write these ideas down, a combination practice was pseudo-pigraphy was to put somebody importance name as the header to make people care. You know what I mean? And that's just that's a dead practice today. I mean, you might use a fake name, but you're not going to write it and say that you were a dead ancient figure. That's not something that we do anymore. But the ancient man did. Ancient culture did. There's a lot of pseudo-peographical works, right? And so

1:19:40but could know it could have been that enoc. I think largely is that, right? But those ideas I think survived. Now, what I will say about this, and this is one of the reasons I don't accept it as scripture, is I do think over time. I do think they preserved a lot of the stories, which is wonderful. It's rich. It's valuable in that regard. The reason I don't accept it as scripture is because some of the I believe there are embellishments. I believe in that and that can be true of any mythology is the embellishments. That's kind of what helps maintain the story. That's helps what pushes it forward keeps it in the consciousness of the people groups. That's why you know, go ahead. But I think about it like this, I would suggest that telling you what I just told you about this deep connection with Noah and Shamp to the country of Ethiopia, who just so happened to have the book. You know, what it was, the guy Bruce, James Bruce, go in 1769 somewhere around there,

1:20:41goes to Ethiopia and discovers that they have this book that they have that they're preserving. And he takes three copies, three manuscripts of first enoc. And he gives one to King Louis, he gives one to Oxford funny enough. Well, we get circled back to that. And he takes what he keeps one for himself. But this is a land off the beaten path. Europeans haven't been there for a very long time. This guy though, this is fairly recent in terms of history, in terms of where we're at in history. Fairly recently, it does a European inter- Ethiopia for the first time. And that's the same for Petra. There's places like this. Like Petra wouldn't become a UNESCO World Heritage site until they, they 80s. Right. And and they're lying about that place too. Honestly, like that, they're saying that was an abatine. I think that was Edelwein. That's an old Edelwein thing that goes back to Esau. That's a story from other time. There are places that have been off the beaten path that preserve history

1:21:44up until the modern time. And I think that that's important in discussing this because because, think about it like this, going back to what you were just saying about the embellishments as such. I suspect strongly that that Schem settled somewhere in Ethiopia and had some of his people write these stories down and hold them there and preserve them there and probably hide them there. And by the time Schem's people are writing the some of this stuff down that was told to them by Noah, there might be some things you know added to a little bit embellishments or right. Now I'm speculating on that that's how it happened right. But I can see that being the case. You know. Yeah, I always the way I always understood it and I could be totally wrong. This has just been my understanding of it. Is I always heard the Solomonic ties right Solomon tie to monarchy right to a queen in that region. And yeah. And so

1:22:49this was man that was very generous with his seed. Let's just put it that way. Over a thousand, you know, he's disgusting in that regard. I mean that with all due respect but you nasty when you got well, they were different. Yeah, he has 700 concubines and so they were they were warned. God warned the kings that would come and do toronomy not to take for themselves many wives or many horses. And yeah, I think he did both. So in any case, my understanding was that offspring with this queen, right. And so this the Solomon is what links. So I see the the world of the Bible, not that Ethiopians not included in all of them. But but as far as these patriarchal figures from the Old Testament is the tie back to Shem and back to Noah was through Solomon from my understanding. But I haven't looked at all the things that you've looked at as well. But I I was understood that anything that they had or had knowledge of came through Solomon. Now that's not the Nishaka stick at either Solomon

1:23:51according to the Bible. One of the wisest men do have ever lived. We don't know all that Solomon knew, right? We don't know. We know his wisdom like God gave it said, you can ask me anything you want. And he asked, I want wisdom so I can lead your people. And God says, you could ask me for anything. You could ask for power. You could ask for what you asked for wisdom. I'm going to give you that ends and everything else too. You know, and that's part of that part of that could have been him reconnecting with some of this material that were essentially like old family books. Yeah, well that too. Yeah, I'm not sure. It's definitely something. I want to look more I want to look more into. But it seems like that line had access to this. They they're the ones who had the information. I would suspect are the ones that wrote it down. Yeah. And I would suspect that that's why Solomon knew about it. Right. What do you what do you think Solomon's ties to the book of Enoch are specifically? Well, I'm just saying to the information as a whole like so so Solomon has

1:24:55potentially, you know, this relationship with this with this queen, right? And now they're tied to Solomon, who is very important, very significant biblical figure, right? It ties him to the region. It ties him to the region. And he's one of the wisest men to have ever lived according to the Bible. He had knowledge we know not of, right? We don't know all this man knew, but we know he was given supernatural wisdom from God. We just have a few examples in the Bible and they're very minor. So who knows what all he's in the line of shame, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, because yeah, so the Shemaites, I mean, that's where Abraham and the Jews and all this that's that's where they come from, right? So when we're, when we speak of Semetics, those that are of the Semetic world, we're talking about the Shemaites, right? And yeah, so we're talking, yeah, we're talking about Middle Eastern folks, right? And so the tying it to Ethiopia, I see I've always understood Solomon to be that connection, but because they now had a tie to the Holy Land through Solomon being from

1:26:01the sea, you know, if it's all true, right? And I think there's enough tethers there to where there's smoke, there's fire. I think we can both agree on that for sure. Where there's smoke, there's fire. And so I believe I think it just, I think the history gets suggested goes back further than Solomon though. That's what I'm starting to stumble across at least because that's, that's if you look at that camera and a gas, I mean, that's their, that's Ethiopia's national historic book. So he's got to be something there, right? Yeah. But yeah, no, it's fun, it's fun conversation. That's all. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I like to think about the possibilities with these old, I'm fascinated in general with these old text. So I like, and, and, and I've basically concluded that 85% of what's out there is inaccurate as far as what's in the major institutions that's been passed down to us. So we, I don't, let's, let's discuss 2020. Yeah, since 2020, I don't accept anything that they tell me. Thank you. Exactly. That's why I'm like, that's why I sometimes, sometimes take such a rogue approach. Why I take this Indian,

1:27:04a Jones approach sometimes, yeah, this stuff. And I love you for it. I'm the same way. Yeah. They're not giving us the full stories. So let's go out and see if we can find something, you know. Yeah. But yeah, go ahead. Sorry. No, I was going to say where we hit so many walls though is, not to get too conspiratorial, not that you're against me going there. But, but the access of information, we very much, what we have access to is also incredibly limited. There's a reason that some of these ideas, we can't learn more about them because the information that would reveal them or explain them in greater detail are largely kept from us as far as who's the they that is keeping us from said information. That depends on whatever flavor conspiracy theorists, whatever a color you're tinfoil had is. But in any case, we can, I think largely agree those in this circle know that there's a story we haven't been told quite a few actually. And that the major narratives that we've been fed are largely unreliable. That the only thing at the end of the day that we can

1:28:08trust with a 100% of our heart soul or love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. What can I trust with all of my heart, mind, soul, and strength? I believe that to be the 66 books of the canon. Right. And so, so that's always what I'll go back to. It's what I try to tether everything to on the show. But I love going all the other places in my mind and in my studies. We planted that flag at the beginning of this. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We felt that's why I felt like let's let's I'll I'll loosen up a little bit here and and throw some theories out there now because you know, we're in. Oh, absolutely. I love it. We're in it now. You know, but we planted our flag with that early on and I'm glad we did. I think it was wise. And we both had it. We'll just say instinct to do so. Yeah. After you record right before I hit record, I remember you saying we should start with with Genesis six. I was like, yeah, I was going to ask you, like, should we start with Genesis six with this and we both agreed. Like no problem. We already had the same thought. So yeah, we'll

1:29:08we'll jump back into this because people are probably like what happened to the Sean Ryan That's our go into the weeds with us. We're having a time. I'm having a great time. Exactly. Yeah. Hang out with us in the deep end, but I'll back it up. And I think where he was at was he's Explained about the fall erroneously. The fall. He's saying he's saying Nephilim. The word means the fall, right? That is rooted in the fall. The first. Yeah. So so just means those who have fallen and we talked about why that can't be the case. But we'll let him finish. Yeah. It's not the case. So I'll back it up and we'll jump back into this thing. How much information? Of course in Hebrew, if you know your Hebrew, in the fall is the verb that means fallen. So that's where we get this idea of maybe they're demons, maybe they're just angelic beings. So Nephilim is the plural noun of in the fall in Hebrew. I don't know if that was ever explained to you from a word study. So that's where we get

1:30:08this idea of this sentient race that copulates with women to produce this hybrid race. We don't know anything about it besides the first five or six verses of Genesis. Perhaps and again, we speculate. And so fast forward to 300 BC. Okay. So what? I mean, are we 3000 years later? Are we 6000 years later? We're in 300 BC. We're in this unique milieu of Jewish mystical writing. And the book of Enoch begins to speculate for 37 chapters about who this race was, who these giants are. And it's really fun and interesting and maybe even perhaps edifying for certain groups. But it's not historical as far as helping us understand what I would say is this very clearly. First Enoch specifically, which is in the Ethiopian Bible, from a historical perspective,

1:31:11from a scholarly perspective and from an archaeologically perspective does nothing to help us understand Genesis 6 and the Nephilim at all. What does it say in just? Yeah. So that's bunk. I mean, and we've already largely discredited that notion, but that's where he really shows his rear end. I mean, these ideas are ancient. And again, Heiser did leave some bounds on legitimizing these things historically, linguistically. I mean, so to say that, and he goes on to say, because I'm familiar with the interview. So I'm going to just spill a little of what he says, because he basically says, if you're going to get lost in this stuff, you're wasting your time. And instead of going and studying about the Nephilim and the book of Enoch, he says, you should just go out and learn Greek. That's his advice. Johnston, he says, go out and learn Greek. And I think his advice goes back on his head. And the reason I say that is because we've been talking about this for two, and haven't we? And guess what is to written in? It's written in Greek. It was 70 Jewish

1:32:12scholars that were experts in Hebrew and experts in Greek. And when they got to the word that you say, we have no way of really knowing what it means. Well, Mr. Learn Greek, when they were translating the Hebrew from the Greek, they did not put those who fall or fallen ones. They put gigantis. That's what they put. And so, so, you know, his advice again goes in on himself. I don't want to get too mad at him, but I do get annoyed with the condescending tone that he begins to adopt. He's, that's it. There was he was very condescending in the way he said some of those days goes on to speculate for 27 chapters or whatever he said there. So, but why did you read it? Why did you talk about it? That's what I'm saying is you cannot just dismiss it entirely because we in her minute, we talk about why did Jesus? Yeah, well, in a lot of the imagery that's used to the son of man throughout the book of Revelation, sounds very inokian as well. And so, it affected their thinking.

1:33:13And so, in hermeneutics, we would harp on the importance of context that in order to understand the Bible properly, you need context. First, textual context is the most important. Look at, you know, there's always the 2020 rule, you know, read 20 verses before or 20 verses after to try and get an idea. And then it's like, okay, then look at after you've looked at that, look at the rest of the book, then after you've looked at that, did that author write any other books in the Bible? Look at their use of certain language. And then after that, compare it to the rest of the Bible, is that terminology used anywhere else in the Bible? That's what we did with Benach Elohim. And the book of Job, it's used multiple times and every time it's supernatural, right? So, so we're applying hermeneutics as we go. But then once you've exhausted that context, there's some things that are called hapax l'gamonons. That is a word that only shows up in the Bible and nowhere else, meaning it only shows up one time in the Bible. And when we look at contemporary literature of the time, we don't find anything else to explain. I'll give you an example. When it's talking about Jacob's ladder, probably wouldn't a ladder. The word that's used there, many have assumed that it was actually

1:34:17more like a stairway, like a ziggurat as opposed to a ladder, like with rungs or whatever. But the word used is a hapax l'gamonon. We don't have anything to compare it to. We just have the immediate context. There's nothing contemporary around it that we can compare it to to try and figure out what exactly does that exact term mean. But with the book of Jude, if I want to know what the heck Jude was talking about when he says the things that he says, I have historical context available to me. I know something he was reading because he straight tells me he was reading it in verses six and seven of his epistle. He mentions Enoch by name. And so it's just the fact that he can be so incredibly dismissive of this book is like saying, Oh, don't read the stuff that the of the apostles that wrote scripture. Don't read the books that were available to them at the time because it was a waste of time. Are you kidding me? That's letting me to think how they were thinking. And that's the right way to to harmonically approach the Bible. Yeah. And is that the clip the clip I just played? Did he

1:35:22mention archaeology as well? I think he was suggesting that it had no archaeological value either. That there's no archaeological support is what he was suggesting. Well, there's there's some. I have a little thing about that. You know, there's the tablet of Mount Hermann. I don't know if you looked into that mountain. I haven't yet known. Hermann, if I remember correctly, means oath, mountain of the oath. Yeah. I thought too as well. I like I said, I haven't double checked, but yeah. Locally, Mount Hermann is named after this event, and known for this event where the watchers come down and take a note that says they bind themselves by mutual implications and take a oath. And in 1869, a guy named Charles Warren went up there. There's all these temples up there. And it's very shady. They're telling us a different story. The temples up there, they say are Roman Greek. But I went up there and looked around and looked at some of the inscriptions and they're not Greek

1:36:25and Roman. Some of them are Arab, air maic. They're older. And this tablet is also they say it's a Greek inscription on this tablet, but it's got air maic words on it. There's a translation that all that the tablet says something about the oath. In fact, it's George Nicholsburg went up there and he says, according to the command of the greatest God, those who take a note, proceed from here is what the tablet said is a Harvard guy that went up there. And he actually thought it was talking about the oath taken by the angels under Simeonza, who bound themselves together by now. That's what the Harvard guy said. And he's like, yeah, this is from Enoch one. Six Enoch's, you know, yeah, I know it's you know, you know, it's sick. Yeah, six, six, I think is what it is. And you know, so in the end, you ask the locals and they're like, yeah, that's what this is name that hurts. This is

1:37:26the mountain of the oath. So it's again, there's there might be some archaeological stuff there. Oh, there's also a word on the tablet called bataew. Bataew. Let me see if I have that to here. And it's not Greek. You got Dr. Doug Hampe. He did some research on this. He suggested when you take the word bataew on the tablet and break it down, it's bad or bad is the secret name for in in Lille, which means and it also can mean in in Matete, like Genesis 315. But it's saying that this God, little G God, like a semi-Aza type is what it's referring to who led a group. So all that's they even think it might be an old Sumerian or a Kadian word that there's that's on this tab. So there's and this has been largely shut down. One of the main temples up there. It's a UN base now. It's restricted to the public. And that interesting. Right. So there's a lot that we're not being told

1:38:28about what archaeology could tell us about this story in the Enoch as well. I think archaeology and I don't mean to insult any archaeologists or any I mean who am I you probably have forgotten more than I've ever learned. But but in any case, I am highly skeptical of the establishment and every way shape and form at this point. I mean, I was already a highly skeptical individual. I've always been fast and easy ever since 911 since I was a kid and and wrestling with the the formal narrative that we were given for 911 never made sense to me even as a kid. I was living in Saudi Arabia at the time and when the plane started hitting the towers nothing was making a whole lot of sense since I was a kid. And so that planted skepticism in me very early on. And I was even very skeptical skeptical of Christianity when I was in Saudi Arabia. I got to be around Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists. I was at this academy surrounded by people of all these other face and I wasn't even a Christian at the time. I was highly agnostic at the time. But I got to be exposed to these people in these places and it planted a seed in me that when I was 17 and run

1:39:32over by a truck literally run over by a truck. I was like, hmm, I want to go to church with my grandmother because I need to know why God didn't let me die on the side of the road that day. And because I was not convinced by Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism, I just they all were found wanting in my investigations. But then, you know, I started going to church with my grandmother. They were doing a Wednesday night thing or it was like a Wednesday or Friday night. They started reading a case for Christ by Lee Strobel. And man, that was revolutionary for me. I'm body wrote it when he did because it was huge in my coming to faith. But in any case, I'm largely skeptical of the established consensus on anything and everything. 9-11 was the first time those narratives began to crumble for me. 2020 on the pandemic and all those things, how we were blatantly lied to, I covered that in my Fauci episode just that we were lied to again and again and again. And they're still lying to us. They're lying to us. We're over in Iran again. We're being lied to us to why we're over there. You know, it's like we are constantly being lied to. So like archaeology, we got onto it from archaeology,

1:40:35right? I largely reject a lot of archaeology because I because it doesn't fit. I go by Bible first and then secular sciences, right? And if what what the secular sciences are saying doesn't match with the Bible, I say, I don't care how many egg heads you have in your university that tell me that this is what it means. I disagree with you because I'd rather let God be true in every man be a liar. Paul said in the book of Romans. So it's like, you know, we're just got the two things. Yeah, this guy's an academic. Yeah. Big time. We, I don't know if we we laid that out yet. I mean, I'm sure people have picked up on it. But this guy is a graduate of Oxford and he proclaims it proudly throughout this interview. Oh, yeah, he loves, oh, he loves letting you know about his credentials, by the way. I don't mean that to be cutting, but it's yeah, it's it's very true. It's a humble brag. But but but again, like I think he's I think he he needs to remember his place to I'll say that.

1:41:35I think he I agree. I agree. He's in the holes a lot. He's on the Sean rise show. He's soaking it all in. And he's letting you know, like I deserve to be here is his attitude. You should have me more often. So I can tell you exactly what everything means, Sean. I'm like, what exactly? And that's what got curveball thrown at him in the first place when he said that because Sean was like. Yeah, and he and he started showing his rear end every moment after that. And he basically again, he adopts the Calvinist, I mean, when I say I don't mean Calvinist, I mean, John Calvin, John Calvin said specifically of the supernatural interpretation of Genesis six. He says it is quote abundantly refuted by its own absurdity. Did he address the arguments that we've laid out? We've spent over, we're approaching the two hour mark. We're having such a good time. Did John Calvin do anything to try and address centuries of interpretation concerning the Genesis six supernatural worldview? None whatsoever. He said it is abundantly refuted by its own absurdity. That's the equivalent of saying, it's, I think it's silly so it can't be true.

1:42:37You know, my atheists have made that exact same argument about Christianity. Well, I think it's silly so it can't be true. So is that the standard now? You know, so John Calvin loved him to death. He did a lot of good things. He did some bad things too. And his theology has been largely bastardized and turned into a level of theological determinism that makes me nauseous. But but in any case, he certainly did not do the supernatural worldview. Any favors, nor did he do so, tearyology. Any favors in my opinion. I love you, my reformed brothers and sisters, but but I am no Calvinist, not any longer. Even though I got my Johnny Mac commentary back there, I've wrestled that many, many times. But sorry. Well said, well said. Now we'll finish the interview here. And I like the commentary, man. Again, it's great. From a historical perspective, from a scholarly perspective and from an archaeologically perspective, does nothing to help us understand Genesis 6 and the Nephilim at all.

1:43:38What does it say in Genesis 6? That the essentially that this race, this angelic race, may have created offspring with females that hasten the judgment of God, the flood that we see. May have. Yeah. Yeah. Because you can't, it'd be silly to fully deny it. Right. Right. Well, but in the in the holes, here's another thing that affects his interpretation, is when you're in the holes of Oxford and those kinds of things, when you want to be accepted by all the cool kids, you have to repeat the things that the cool kids are saying. Right. And so that's one thing. Heiser didn't care about being liked by these by these circles of academics. He was like, love me or hate me. I'm going to, I'm going to live according to my convictions and my, my understanding of the text and what it says and not what I wanted to say. So he's totalling the party line here. That's my opinion is is because. Yes. Yes.

1:44:43That's that's why they'll they'll ignore the supernatural worldview because they want to keep, they want to keep getting those invitations, right. They want to be accepted by the cool kids. So, so but but again, Heiser, he was not a wooed by by acceptance. He didn't care if they, if he got the invite to to the next Oxford party or whatever. I'm being slightly facetious, right. But but he didn't care about being he was, he said, I want to help the layman to understand the Bible and and even though, I mean, there are times I listen to him talk and I feel stupid because he was so intelligent, but his passion was I want to take these things that are very high and seemingly unreachable. And I want to make them very understandable. And I want to give you access to the halls of academia and let you know it's not as fancy as some would have you to believe. But, um, no, that's it. No, that's that's I think that's what's happening here. It's, yeah. Academia, academic speak or, you know, this is what you would say at the cocktail party, essentially, to, to, yeah. Uh-huh. Yes. To get agreements. Yeah. Yeah. Right after that passage, we just don't know. That's the thing. We don't have to do CIA

1:45:47context, interpretation, application. That's all we know. It could be legendary. It could be mythology. It could be true. It could be the way the humans race into sin. That's one speculation. Like, how did we become such great sinners? Maybe through this race. But there's no connection between Goliath and the Nephilim. We know now we have a shiver. Stop it there. I hate that. I hate that so much when he says that. So, so I want to rip him to shreds there because that makes me so upset. He claims there's no connection. You heard it. No connection between Goliath and Nephilim. And I cannot stress this enough how confidently wrong this man is when he says that, numbers 1333, the spies come back from scouting cane and they say, I'm going to read it directly. They're also, or they're also, we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim.

1:46:48And we became like grasshoppers in our site. And so we were in their site. So the sons of Anak, they're the Anakim. Okay. Explicitly identified by Moses here numbers as Nephilim, as a branch of Nephilim. So Nephilim is the umbrella term and there were there were tribes within the Nephilim. So Nephilim is the large umbrella of these hybrid, this hybridized race. And Anakim were one of those tribes. There was also the Mim, the Rephim, the Zamzumim, Deuteronomy 2 lays out, you know, several of these tribes. So, but numbers 13 connects the sons of Anak, the Anakim, as Nephilim, right there. We just read it. Numbers 1333. Now, follow the trail. Follow the trail. I want to lay out. Deuteronomy 2 tells us about the Rephim, the Mim, the Zamzumim, every single time Moses wants to communicate just how massive these clans were. He compares them to Anakim. He says that the Mim, where is tall as the Anakim, the Zamzumim, where is tall as the Anakim. So the Anakim, the sons of

1:47:50Anak, they become the benchmark for him. Okay. And what were Anakim again, they were Nephilim. And what were Nephilim? Giants. We may, it's not, has nothing to do with follow ones, right. It's Nafeel, giant Nephilim, Giants, right. Deuteronomy 3, Saidno introduces us to the king of Bashan, identified as a Rephim, a giant. We're told that his bed was made of iron 13 feet long. That man needed the 13 foot bed. Okay. So he's not just a really tall guy. This is something else entirely that's going on here. Now, what the heck does this have to do with Goliath? I'm glad you asked. Okay. Goliath comes from Gath. Okay. That's what Samuel tells us. His brothers and relatives that David's mighty men fought. That David fought Goliath. And then he and his mighty men would go to feed his brothers later on. That way forward in 2nd Samuel 21 that happens. They all hail from Gath. This is huge because of what Joshua 1122 tells us. After Joshua's conquest, the Anakim were completely driven out of Israel except, except in one place. It says only in Gaza, in Gath,

1:48:58and in Ashtad did some remain. Hmm. What's important about Gath again? Oh, that's where Goliath is from. The same city where Joshua explicitly couldn't finish the job. We find out there's a remnant of Anakim Nephilim, meaning giants exactly where Goliath and his brothers would come from 400 years later. So when he talks about, oh, CIA context. And I just gave you the context. I just gave you the context. And anytime Nephilim is used, they want to connect it back to the Anakim and to the Reffaim, to 13 foot tall individuals, to nine in 10 foot individuals. Genesis to numbers, to Deuteronomy, to Joshua, all the way to 2nd Samuel. All of it is connected. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just genealogy. And we just just laid it out. It's a genealogy. Yeah. And so Dr. Johnson, a man who spent three years tracing resurrection beliefs across the entire sweep of Jewish and Christian literature, he told the audience there that there was no connection between

1:49:59Goliath and Nephilim. Dr. Johnson, I'm not mad at you, but I am disappointed, sir. It's just a joke. It's a joke. Yeah, it's a joke. Yeah, I'll keep playing it. Well done. Well, laid out there. I want to say side note, because referring to some of stuff I'm working on on the side here, what I was trying to articulate earlier about this line of came potentially making it through the flood and reviving through ham. So I'm looking into that, right? Guess where all the giants come from. Goliath goes back to the line of ham. Auga Bashan goes back to the line of ham. Yeah. Canaanites go in the Reff IE, go back to the line of ham. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And I mean, they're in there, you know, when we see Goliath fighting alongside the Philistines, when they're, you know, all these people in rebellion against God, you know, worshiping

1:51:02the fallen Elohim, the remaining Binecha Elohim, the sons of God that didn't get locked away, as Jude says. And as Enoch says, so yeah, fascinating stuff. It's crazy. Yeah, we'll jump back in here, though. Yeah. See you. To race into sin, that's one speculation. Like, how did we become such great sinners? Maybe through this race. But there's no connection between Goliath and the Nephilim. We know now we have a Hebrew text of first Samuel that's cleared it up. Goliath is four Cubids in a hand breath. He was probably six six or six 10, which was huge for his day, but he's not 10 feet. He's not six Cubids. We have an older manuscript that clears that up for us. Okay. When did Christian? What does he? Which by the way, doesn't matter. There are when it comes to the measurements, that's one of the things. Yes. But, but, but full disclosure, I mean, when it comes to some of the

1:52:04measurements in the Bible, it can get very challenging to interpret them. It can get very challenging. Even when you read, for example, when you read through Samuel and kings, mainly kings, right? You read through kings, you read through chronicles. There are discrepancies between the two. Some of the battlement figures, right? They'll say, you know, this many soldiers were in this battle, and then you get to chronicles and we're given certain figures that don't always match up. So, when we're talking about, you know, some of the numeric information, as we talked about, the Bible being preserved over the ages, we have zero copies of any originals. It's copies of copies of copies of copies and 99.9% in our English Bibles. You know, we can, okay, yes. But there are some things, scholarly criticism goes into to account where they look at some of the stuff that says, well, was this word the right word or was it this one? Because you can have two manuscripts that use a different word in both or two manuscripts as Johnston points out that have two different

1:53:04figures on them, which one is the accurate. He made an interpretive choice there. He says, well, we have two two manuscripts. One has an older or the one has a different qubit measurement on it. I'm going to go with the older one. Well, but here's the thing. We all, and we all do this, we all tend to go with whatever one agrees with us the most, right? There are, and we all have that bias, right? If there were two manuscripts available, I'm going to cherry pick the one that fits the argument that I'm trying to make. Which one is the correct one? Is it the older one? Is it the newer one? I don't care how tall Goliath was to be honest. I already told you, I don't believe that the Nephilim were as big as mountains. I don't, I think, I think that's a bridge too far for me. I do think that they were abnormally large. And Goliath doesn't need to be 10 foot for me either. He doesn't need to be 10 foot in my opinion. Even if he was just a heavy six footer, I think he was bigger than that. But in any case, I just showed you the connective tissue from Genesis 6 to Numbers 13, Deuteronomy 1 through 3, Joshua 11 into 2 Samuel. I mean, so, Gath is significant. Goliath is significant.

1:54:11I mean, he's picking the one. He says he's picking that one because it's older. But what about, I would make the argument if I could sit across from a market, say, well, here's the thing. The supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6 is the older interpretation. Why don't you go with that one? Why are you accepting the more modern sons of Seth interpretation? If age is the only thing we're going to use to say, well, if it's older, it's the true or one, then why don't you accept the supernatural worldview? That is the more ancient view. It's older, but you won't do that. So he's not being intellectually consistent, which is, but we're all guilty of, you know, I would just say, hey, sir, your bias is showing, you know, but yeah, okay. Yeah. And, breath, he was probably 6, 6 or 6, 10, which was huge for his day, but he's not 10 feet. He's not 6 qubits. We have an older manuscript that clears that up for us. Okay. When did Christianity reach Ethiopia? It's just such a odd location. Well, actually, and there's a lot of odd, I mean,

1:55:14just to continue, I mean, there's connections with Solomon and the Queen of Shiba. There's thought to even be several from Africa. And we do know that he had a 700 compky binds. So there's a lot of apocryphal mystical, legendary stories that come out of the connection of Shiba with Solomon. There's no history behind it. It comes from the intertestamental period. These are legendary stories when I lived in Africa. Well, there is kind of history there because Shiba's a real person from history who really did live in this region of Ethiopia. Right. Right. And so, so, well, he's also all of it's historical, all of it's old. If we're talking about, I mean, it's old material written down interpretation. How is one going to interpret it? That's the major question that we're actually wrestling with is it's all historical. All of this stuff is, has is valuable from a historical perspective because even if not all of it is 100% like history as

1:56:17in just a record of things that happened, it still lets us know how people were thinking at the time. Even I said the book of Enoch, I don't think is all of it is necessarily to be accepted as gospel, but at the same time, I think it is valuable. It lets us know how people were thinking and engaging with ideas of their day. And so, and that's what I he mentioned something I had mentioned earlier. I always understood the Solomonic connection to Ethiopia with the Queen of Shiba. Now, from a biblical perspective, does the Bible say that the Queen of Shiba and Solomon had a kid? No, it doesn't. It says that she heard about this man's wisdom and that she showed up to see if the rumors were true and she was blown away. That he answered all of her questions and he just he blew her away with the wisdom that that Yahweh had given him. And so, that's all we're given from a biblical perspective in the Ethiopian lore though is is there they're saying that no, there was a little bit more going on there that the Bible just gives you the surface and below the surface, there's all this Ethiopian lore that that Solomon had a child with her and that that is where they

1:57:20can trace their lineage back to. And obviously, if you can trace yourself back to Solomon, that's a really big deal, right? The Solomonic line, the Davidic line is historically significant. It's scripturally significant because that's the line Jesus has come from too, right? But now let's say it's true. The fact that there's such a large Christian presence in Ethiopia is very telling because I mean, if they can be traced back to Solomon, Solomon would have rejoiced at the coming of the son of David. Solomon would have rejoiced at the coming of Christ. And if they can be tied back to a son that that Solomon had with the Queen of Shiba, if that's true and they claim that it is, we just when he says it's not historical, I'm understanding it as to say it's not historically verifiable outside of the Ethiopian lore. But I think we have to be cautious and just dismissing it as untrue just because it wasn't some Western historian that came up with it. That's it. That's another big problem. That's a huge issue here is looking at this with the Western mindset,

1:58:20even even a Western academic mindset. I mean, it's still Western mindset. Bias on top of bias. Yeah. He's totally, you know, yeah, for sure. You know, and you've got there's a there's a longstanding Christian presence there in Ethiopia going back to the Acts, Acts 826. Philip the evangelist goes, well, he could know the Ethiopian unit. Yes, who was reading Isaiah 53. And he says, if only so here we have an Ethiopian who is reading an ancient Hebrew text, one of the most important the book of Isaiah. And so he's reading it. The first simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, well, as far as the date on it, I would know, but I mean, he's reading it. And all of a sudden, God teleports Philip there. I mean, it is a supernatural carrying of Philip to decide to the Ethiopian unit. It makes it clear that he he picks him up, places him there at that exact moment. And he's reading through the book of Isaiah. And he

1:59:21says, if only somebody could tell me who it's talking about. And Philip is like, oh, let me tell you, it's all talking about Jesus of Nazareth. And and the Ethiopian unit converts to Christianity. And he says, what's keeping me from being baptized? And he sees a local body of water right there on the spot. And he says, I want to be baptized. What's keeping me from being baptized? Philip says, nothing. Let's go. And he gets baptized there. And so there we see the ties to, you know, Old Testament Jewish thought, right? He's what does this Ethiopian care about some Jewish prophet and what he writes about? Unless, of course, there's some ties back some intrigue there because Solomon is is our daddy's daddy's daddy's daddy. Who knows? You're right. But it is it's fascinating that we have the Ethiopian unit who is reading this text. And he may have taken the Christianity back with him to Ethiopia. Yeah, to say, hey, say so, so the one that was said that

2:00:22would come from David that would come from Solomon, he came, he came. He was he was in Jerusalem. He was preaching for three years. They killed him and he came back. And and I was told by one of his followers. And I'm here to bring the good news back to us. And the first century that was yeah, because all of this is in the book of X. Yeah, this is all in early 30s. Yeah, this is between 30s and 40 AD and and Luke, Luke wrote it down for us. And so Ethiopia has a strong Christian presence. I just think it's fascinating that this Ethiopian unit has an interest in a Jewish document in this Jewish book. It would make sense though. If he already had exposure to Jewish thought and to Jewish patriarchs, if they felt whether it's true or not, and let's say even if there was no sleeping together, we know the queen of Shiba met Solomon and went back and would have bragged about how brilliant this man, you know, this guy says that they believe in the one true God and that the one true God gave him supernatural wisdom. I got to hear that wisdom for myself. We should really pay attention to the things that are coming out of that, you know, that that

2:01:26place. Yeah, it could be that or it could be all over, you know, it could be they they even I'll just take it a step further and say they had the book of Enoch and then this was giving them more context for it. It could be. Yeah, it could be that it was already there. Yeah, it could be. Yeah, or or I mean, or he could because we know the apostles were reading Enoch, we know it was available in first century Judea, right? So in in in Jerusalem and throughout the region, we know Jude is reading it. We know Peter's reading it, right? We know that because they quote it directly, right? Well, when he goes back, who knows what other literature he brought back with him from Judea from Judea, he might have even purchased that scroll of Isaiah while he was there and and who knows what other material he would have brought back. Now, who says he only took one trip? He goes there, he converts who says he doesn't get sent back. Hey, go get as much as you can at this stuff. We want more. We're going with you this time or that too. Yeah. Yeah. We want to go meet people with him and they just go. Yeah, they they stay beginning a a a channel of sharing information. Yeah.

2:02:31Okay. And connection is made. Yeah. Who knows? And we know again, they're going to say we know that the all of the New Testament epistles were meant to be circulated. That's that's that's very clear. Right. So so they they would read it publicly and then they would have to rewrite it because they would want to keep their copy, but they'd have people that would rewrite it and then send a copy to the other churches. Because even Galatia, like okay, Ephesus was a city, right? So the letter to the Ephesians was to that city, but like Galatia was in a city. Galatia was a region. So it was written to the Galatians and the idea was that one of them was going to read it. They were going to either pass it along or somebody was going to copy it and pass it along. That's why we have thousands of copies. So when the Roman government tried to destroy the Bible, they failed because there were so many manuscripts available and we were able to come together with these tens of thousands of manuscript pieces despite their best efforts, the Bible survived and and and and or the new New Testament survived. Also, so Phil, the evangelist, converts the Ethiopian unit, like we said,

2:03:35established that's first century, okay, first century AD 30 and it's in book Acts. So we accepted as gospel. In Acts, this is also happening roughly around the same time, Jude writing the book of Jude quotes the book of Enoch in the first century. So yeah, this it's in the air, right? Jude knows about the book of Enoch because he's using in a source material in the first century AD. Also in the first century AD, that same Philip the evangelist converts, baptizes, I'm a little hazy on the details, but he said to have converted a guy named Simon, the Samaritan Maghi or Magus. Simon Magus. Yeah. Oh, Simon Magus. Well, he was a guy that, well, he, I don't know if he was actually converted. He tried to like buy the power of the Holy Spirit. He wanted to pay for it. Right. So, so there's there's it's said that he may have converted him, right? Yeah, and well Peter, well, he asked to buy the power of the Holy Spirit and Peter says to hell with you and your money basically is what he tells him. There's a there's a story in Acts. I thought that Philip

2:04:41tries to convert Simon the Samaritan Magus. Oh, let's see Philip the evangelist. Yeah, he did meet with Simon the sorcerer in Samaria. And Simon believed it says that Simon believed, right? And was baptized after he saw Philip's miracles. But when he was amongst the other apostles and tries to buy the power of the Holy Spirit from the apostles, that's when he has the confrontation with Peter. And basically his, his, his, his, his, he suggests that he departs from the faith after that that apostasizes because he didn't get his way. And he, he, he wanted to be in the cool kids club. And he wanted to, to again, it was the buying of the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And so I, I believe his conversion to have been false because the book of verse John says they went out from us that it may be manifest that they were not of us. So had he come to faith, he, I, I believe he would have remained in my opinion. I really think it was about getting closer to power. Sure.

2:05:42Okay. So my point though is he is known to be one of the first nozzles. Oh, I see where you're going. Yeah. Okay. So, so this is first century AD, right? It was all happening around the same time. Same time as Jude using Enoch as source material. Right. You see the first nozzles show up on the scene because Simon the source from her goes on to influence Serto, one of the early nozzles and Marcy own, the heretical Marcy own. I just want to throw that in. Even the Scythias was first century AD. He's an ostic. I just want to make note that the osticism doesn't seem to show up until the first century AD. And I'm making this, I'm saying this for a reason because a lot of people try to paint the book of Enoch as being nozzles. It predates the nozzles. The book

2:06:42of Enoch predates the first nozzles showing up. I just want to throw that in. Right. I agree. You'll see that. You'll see that out there, man. People will say that it wasn't. It's a, oh, it's a, it's a nozzl. And no, I know I know way before the nozzl. Yeah. I believe it predates formal nozzles. I do think not this is not a counterpoint. This is just interesting information as far as the nozzles. Yeah. Well, a lot of the information though of nozzles. Just like Solomon said, we're talking about Solomon. A lot Solomon declared there's nothing new under the sun. A lot of nozzles ideas were not original either. They were rebrands of, of, of ancient false ideas about God and spirituality and things like that. So not even anything they have is original. So I basically, they can't blame Enoch for that. I, I, some of those bad ideas may predate even Enoch, but I don't think Enoch has anything to do with. It does it with not this is. It does it. Even, even the S scenes being involved with Enoch and the preservation of the Dead Sea Scrolls and all that, that's

2:07:45some of that speculative. They were, they were there in the region, but we don't know how involved they were. Right. To my knowledge. So, you know, but you'll see people try to label it as a nozzl. Yeah. And I just don't think it is. I think it's just older and not, not, there's not enough attachment to that. And here's, but here's another thought though, even if the nozzl.ex fell in love with the text, that's not an argument against the text, right? Because like, says Mormons love Michael Heiser's work, but Mormons are heretics, but they loved his, because he, he, are evil people, evil people quote the Bible every day. Exactly. Exactly. Politicians use scripture to control us all the time and try and get support. Exactly. I always say like fire, fire can be used to cook a meal or commit arson. Sure. It's just a powerful tool. I mean, and so, so truth is, is a powerful tool when it comes to scripture, the most powerful sword, you know, double edged sword, Hebrew says, right? And tyrants have tried to wield it to bring about destruction. So just because, you know,

2:08:47not a bad group might have espoused. I like that you made, you made the argument better. I can shut up because you were like, well, bad people use the Bible all the time. That was the what I was trying to say. So bad people can try to use enoc, doesn't matter, doesn't discredit enoc. It's not his fault. Yeah. Absolutely, man. All right. Let's see where we're at here. A powerful mystical legendary stories that come out of the connection of Shiba with Solomon. There's no history behind it. It comes from the intertestamental period. These are legendary stories. When I lived in Oxford, I took my kid, my daughter, Lily and my wife, Audrey, to Gastonbury. I don't know. Gastonbury is like we're a big musical fest. We didn't go to that. But I went there because there was a legend that Joseph of Arimathea had brought Jesus to Gastonbury in England. You know, there's a total legend. Yeah. Right by King Arthur, by the way, working Arthur was buried in the Knights of the Round Table. I mean, different. I just want to point out that, you know,

2:09:48being at Oxford has nothing to do with this story is that's flanting a little bit. It's in consequential. Yeah. He knows that on purpose. You know, I, we were in Glastonbury and went to a show. Yeah. And we found out that there's a legend that Jesus was brought to the bridge. You know, it is. You didn't need to just stand there. There's a lot of that in this episode. The whole interview. This one, the point out. Different Christian communities developed these unique legendary, almost fanatical perspectives that are based on their ethnicity where they're from, what they're facing. And so what you have, though, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the first Enoch was never removed from our Christian Bibles. It was part of the canon or library of Ethiopian Christians, because their texts developed in much more isolation because it's amazing. There are any Christians at all in Ethiopia

2:10:49after the Islamic conquest. It's just important to help people understand the concept of canon rule, you know, what we call canon. The Bible is a library. And we have to always make sure we keep it. There's genres of our library. There are books. There are biographies. There are poem, wisdom literature, half of the Psalms or Psalms of lament. And so we just need, there's nothing hidden. We're not missing out. Now, when I teach, which I've again, was a division one professor for over a dozen years. So do I tell, sure, read them. As soon as you read them, you're going to realize why they're not in the Bible. We need to give first century Christians a little bit more credit. You know, there's a reason that I encourage people to just read them. Well, as the first century Christians are including it in the Bible, they were reading it. They were reading it. Jude, Jude 14 and 15, Enoch, the seventh son from Adam prophesied, behold the left, the Lord comes with 10,000 of his holy ones to execute judgment on all. That is a quote from

2:11:51first Enoch chapter one. So he's making them sound like he tries to compliment them by saying, oh, they were smart enough to know. Enoch was an important. But I'm like, are you kidding me? Jude is quoting it. What are you talking about? They just had a far more nuanced relationship with the book of Enoch than he'd like to admit. Yeah, and we didn't even talk about the Jesus Matthew 26, 24, Jesus says of Judas. It had been good. It had been good for that man if he had not been born. It'd been good for that man if he had not been born. He compared that the first Enoch 38, 2 where it says where the wicked are confronted by the righteous and it would have been better for them that they had not been born. Yeah, the shared language. There's a lot of phrase level. Yeah, parallel. Matthew 19, 28, Jesus says, the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory

2:12:57and you can compare that to parables of Enoch where the eschatological figure called the son of man or chosen one sits upon a throne of glory and judges kings in the wicked. There's probably a better way to describe that one, but there's some sort of connection there that I've heard made. So I included it in my notes. Yeah, Matthew 25, 31, when the son of man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, first Enoch 1, 9 where God comes with myriads or 10,000s of his holy ones to execute judgment and it's interesting that Jude 14 through 15 explicitly attributes that prophecy to Enoch. Yeah, that's what I just read. Yeah, Matthew 22, 30, Mark 12, 25, Jesus says that in the resurrection, people neither marry nor given in marriage, but are as the angels. You compare that

2:13:57with first Enoch 15 6 through 7 where angels are being described as immortal spiritual beings for whom women were not appointed. This occurs in Enoch's explanation of why the watchers sinned by taking human lives. Matthew 25, 41, Jesus speaks of everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels first Enoch 10 18 through 21 and Enoch 54 repeatedly describes places of fiery punishment prepared for rebellious angels and other wicked beings. Matthew 13, 41 through 42, the son of man sins as angels who gathered the wicked and cast them into a furnace of fire. This resembles Enoch's judgment scenes in which angels gather rebellious supernatural beings and the wicked for fiery punishment. Then there's a Jude 14 through 15 and Enoch also the seventh from Adam prophesied of these saying, behold, the Lord come with 10,000 of his saints which corresponds to something that read earlier

2:15:03from Enoch 1.9 chapter 1. Yeah. Yeah. So there's those there's other potential comparisons I've heard people make as well where Jesus is referring to something and they couldn't have gotten it from anywhere. But Enoch or so the argument goes I've heard Timothy Alberino talk about one talking about mansions in heaven. I don't remember how it goes but there's there's a reference there to he appears Jesus appears to be referencing the book of Enoch when talking about preparing a place for us in mansions in heaven. I'm unfamiliar with that one but I'm curious that I have to look into it. Yeah, we'll have to look more into that when you talk about it. But I've heard but Alberino make some sort of comparison with that. Okay. So it is it's fascinating because a lot of the imagery of the afterlife that Jesus uses. You won't find it in the Old Testament. You don't. Right. So so the fact that he is using a lot of the imagery from Enoch definitely

2:16:08is something that we should it should give us pause because now he at the end of the day you know we're not saying like of course Jesus is more authoritative than Enoch but what's what we're saying is it's fascinating that of all the things that Jesus could could the imagery that he uses and describes it's like we it's there in Enoch and we know it existed prior to the incarnation. So when he's there and he's making these references it's giving nods to something that was so culturally significant that again the apostles referenced it Jesus appears to be borrowing imagery from it to help communicate supernatural realities to us i.e. the afterlife specifically like the the Old Testament is so incredibly vague on the afterlife it really is and it's it's Jesus and then the apostles that give us more information about the afterlife but it's fascinating that when they go to that topic what language do they use? They use a lot of anokian language and and so it is so incredibly clear to me and obviously to you as well and maybe many of you at home

2:17:11that it's not a book that should be ignored as Johnston is suggesting it's not as he will go on to say in that interview with Sean Ryan quote unquote comic book theology it is far more significant than comic book theology and it informed if nothing else if I knew that there was a if I wanted to understand the 1940s and I knew that there was a movie at the time that was out that everyone was watching and talking about it would probably help me to understand the 1940s to go watch that movie right that that seems simple enough right if I want historical context I can't go back in time but a movie is like watching a snapshot or or maybe just read a book from that time to see man if you try to read old books people talked way different then then they do now they speak very differently in those old books then they do now languages change drastically and and and so even if that watch Enoch you know watch the movie Enoch or read read Enoch because it's going to let you know

2:18:14how they were thinking and speaking in in the first century it was very influential but it should give you pause that so man again Jesus in the apostles borrow from this from this body of text so so frequently the more you look at it the more you notice the correlation and and so for him to have spoken so I'm going to be bold ignorantly and arrogantly on this topic I just wanted to be like I just wanted to shake him look here baby Billy I just need you to focus on the shroud that this is not for you you haven't you haven't done enough digging on this to talk about it that's that's the thing it's people talking into microphones way ahead of where their knowledge base is uh you know just stick to what you know sort of a thing and and and people take this even further than the Jeremiah Johnson too yeah people say I've heard Enoch is in a is an initiation into the

2:19:15mysteries it's it's going to lead you to the occult I've heard a guy say that the hyzer got his interpretation of deuteronomy from Nostek Essings who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls and the book of Enoch is part of that that is going to lead you you know to the occult or to the new age or to you know saying I reject that wholesale because because that's one of the reasons I'm I'm covering the occult so much as I want to highlight that these things are not the same and and if if anything I do think the Bible changed my mind on a lot of things including the occult right I used to think it was all slight a hand but when I'm reading through Exodus I'm reading through what Pharaoh's magicians are doing against Moses and Aaron I'm looking in the book of Acts and what the the Philippian slave girl was able to do and make her masters a lot of money before Paul cast out that Numa Paitona that spirit of Python that was in her um like that's a very real world and and we

2:20:17again going back to why my show exists in the first place was we should be supernatural experts if if the lost the hurting the hungry the needy the broken the confused out there in the world are having uncomfortable supernatural occurrences it used to be you could run to a pastor run to a church run to a believer and say can you help me make sense of this thing that I'm experiencing but now we're so negatively affected by naturalism we we you know we're supposed to believe in a supernatural book we believe in a supernatural Christ born of a virgin that he died rose from the grave things coming again you know we believe supernatural things but highs are always pointed it out that we're so prejudicial in our supernatural beliefs you know and it's like no you need to embrace all of it we need to embrace all of it and and even if you don't know you can say you don't know but but we should not be so quick to scoff at these things I think as alboreno I believe it was alboreno that says Genesis 6 is like a Rosetta stone once you wrap your mind around what it's really saying

2:21:22it helps you understand so much of the bible the the flood the conquering of the holy land and then in the new testament some of the places Jesus goes and some of the things that he says it's like wow this this whole book is coming alive to me and I know a lot of people that it brought them back to the Lord it got them more excited about their bibles because it was like a whole part of yeah you but did that for me and I've been on a lot of shows where that's there that's there and that wasn't a Johnston humble brag that's just a a lot of the places that I go and that I'm invited to they let me know like man hyzer's work changed my life you know like it got me excited about my bible again and now I'm reading it more than ever and I'm you know understanding things I didn't understand and it really helps you understand how crazy the world is and why things are the way they are and with the things that are coming I think embracing the supernatural worldview is also going to help us because you may not believe in these supernatural things but the powerfully leads out there the things that they're doing behind closed doors they very much believe in these

2:22:23things and they're doing a lot of a lot of a nasty stuff that's it we'll put it we'll put a bow on it and finish this up cool sir for over a dozen years so do I tell you sure read them as soon as you read them you're going to realize why they're not in the bible we need to give first century Christians a little bit more credit you know with there's a reason I encourage people to just read them you'll see you know that my my expertise is what we call extra canonical gospels and an Oxford you couldn't call them apocryphal because I was seen as pejorative that I was privileging the biblical text so I call them extra canonical they get the rivers wrong they get the names wrong there's alien things in them they don't get the language right I mean Richard Bachum did a book called Jesus in the eyewitnesses where he points out that all you have to do is read the you know there's like 70 gospels outside of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John within a 400 year period after Jesus all you have to do is read them and you'll figure out why they're not in our bibles the gospel there yeah he's lumping everything yes that's intellectually dishonest yes he

2:23:31that's intellectually dishonest he throws out the false gospels that that were written way after Christ in the apostles things that we know are demonstrably false and you saw how he did a bait and switch like any throws the inokian material and the apocryphal material and with all of these fake gospels that's intellectually dishonest it is and that's where I try to reserve judgment best I can but that's where I get really upset that he does that bait and switch to and it's a straw man he's defeating some we're not I'm not saying you got to accept the inoc is gospel but you're saying that of these false things that are demonstrably false you say we'll just read him and you know they're false just reading out and you know it's false it's like well tell Jude that then Mr. like what what the heck like I'm sorry because the apostles are not quoting the gospel of Thomas the apostles are quoting inoc though so give it a little bit of credit you know yeah it's it's intellectually dishonest so throw it in the category or in a basket with the noghamadi you know

2:24:34throw inokian with the noghamadi throw you know I have to see people throw it in with like banley peahol like what yeah yeah he's not he's not being consistent and I I hate when he does that this has nothing to do with those books no yeah but yeah and to lump them into the same category again it's just not right it's that's not you're not being honest about what with what we're dealing with those things are all demonstrably false and yes it is evident that they're false as you read them I will give you that but you you try to lump enok in the apocryphal literature into the same category it predates all that material and I'm not saying it's inspired I don't believe that it is I do believe it has great historical value all of the the apocryphal data is valuable in understanding how the first century was thinking and how things got the way that they were you know um but go go ahead and uh so we'll wrap it up hospital of peter has a giant cross follows Jesus out of the

2:25:36tomb and starts talking you have polymorphic crystallogy in the gospel of peter we have only one witness to it um you have by polymorphic crystallogy Jesus is a giant yeah it's just weird to me that now without any context he jumps to do this book gospel theater yeah so he's just all of these nothing to do with all of these forged gospels all of these false gospels that were that that that are so late after the apacolic period right um have nothing to do with enoch just Sean Ryan never asked you about any of that you're straw manning you are dismantling an argument that nobody made my guy like nobody was saying to accept all of this this post christian literature that was you know third four century forgeries like no no one made that argument enoch is not that and to pretend that it is is intellectually dishonest and it makes me wonder why are you trying so hard to discredit this when the apostles quote it when the apostles were familiar with it they took it seriously it informed their thinking if nothing else it informed their vocabulary because all of the

2:26:40apocalyptic terminology they use and that are Jesus use sounds a lot like that book you know and here's the thing again I don't believe it's inspired I've made that clear but he makes this he makes this comment right to get to this point I'm just thinking he makes this comment like hi you should this is why you should have me on more often I'll hold your hand Sean and walk through all this stuff there's this pause Sean kind of laughs and then he changes the subject right um and and it's almost like this whole tirade it's because he didn't like this way of this new question that was offered up to him it's like he didn't want to talk about maybe he didn't want to talk about the book of enoch or whatever he might think he's above it he's this whole tirade is like he thinks it's anti-intellectual some yeah something's going on with it right yeah it just didn't it's almost like he was bothered by the question and so he's just or maybe he wasn't prepared well that well I think it's a little bit

2:27:41of both but I do think that with this material in the circles that he travels in the Oxford circles that he travels in you know there's there's there's a little bit there's hints of arrogance there but then there's there's also again they see this stuff as intellectually beneath them and and it's it's not if we want to have a historical understanding of Christianity you have to deal with this material and just writing it off the way that he does and in a such a dishonest way I think is not beneficial and I and you can tell he doesn't know a lot about it he does a thing that a lot of intellectuals do and even I find myself doing it too but I it's because I I'm so long-winded so sometimes I talk around to point and work my way in but sometimes when intellectuals are given a question that they don't like or they don't know they will say a bunch of smart sounding nonsense around it so you leave them alone yeah I'm gonna prove to I don't know what I'm gonna talk about there but I'm gonna say enough smart sounding stuff to where you think I

2:28:41answered the question I really didn't answer it but I made you think that I did and I impressed you along the way I'm hoping you're gonna change the subject yeah yeah it's a tactical diversion there's I know just picked up on a lot of that so for sure this is a giant the angels are a giant and you have a hovering talking cross and some people wanted to call that the fifth gospel a hovering talking cross yeah the cross gospel John dominant cross and wrote about it so again we have one witness to the Pekai wrote 10759 which by the way does include some aspects of Enoch and some other things so again you know these are libraries that traveled together the church was very intelligent and that they recognized immediately the sacredness of scripture so like Jerome would have said in the Latin Vulgate these books are sacred the apocrypha is helpful for helping us understand I don't want to be very clear it helps us understand the world in which they were written and appreciated

2:29:42bishops Serapian at Rossis so now it's important but it wasn't earlier yeah the contradiction there yeah okay yeah yeah that's what we've been saying it's so we've been arguing or understand the time in which they wrote the yeah read the gospel of Peter and his Christian community along with the gospels so you just have this emergence of unique traditions with some of these different Christian communities that's all there is and we've known this forever and not by we I mean Bible scholars so when I hear this fascination with Enoch and giants there's no connection Sean between Goliath or giants today with the Nephilim which again is the plural form now of Nepal to fall we just don't have enough information so I'm never going to go beyond the context of what we actually have and certainly I'm not going to build my theology on Ian well that's what this

2:30:43shows for is going into the context oh yes and and we did that man we were thorough we talked about the verb that it's not the verb that we talked about how Goliath has everything to do with the Anakim and Nephilim and and so yeah we've discredited everything he said as far as the shroud and maybe he should stick to talking about the the shroud but this topic again he should shut up well just yeah let's finish it just so we can say what we did Nephilim we're again as the plural form now of Nepal to fall we just don't have enough information so I'm never going to go beyond the context of what we actually have and certainly I'm not going to build my theology on Enoch or on any of these intertestamental books they weren't firing books but not theologically beneficial because I think a lot of people will appreciate that as there's a lot of stuff going on about all of that can I issue a challenge absolutely all of these people and I'm kind of tired of answering questions that borers me about Enoch and

2:31:45I want to say that's odd that will know that reveals why he is talking about it so condescendingly he just said why he's tired he sees this topic as beneath him so so he just told Sean to his face you ask me this question you ask me a question I'm actually tired of talking about Sean so he's being kind of a polite butthole here in regards to the question Sean this Sean Ryan is picking up on this by the way I noticed he's picking up on this you think so you can tell later because I pointed out I pointed out and I want to say this if and I don't mean that like board right now I just mean I could ask this question on every show I do and if people would take the energy that they use to study these unique interesting fanciful inter-testimal books and actually apply that to studying Greek and Hebrew and what we actually have in the scripture they would be a lot closer to Jesus and a lot more firm in their faith for example we have 138,000 words in the

2:32:46Greek New Testament Sean if I got you to memorize just 300 Greek words just 300 you yourself would be able to recognize 8 out of 10 word of currencies in this Bible right here no kid that's Quenna Greek that's the Bible is not written in hidden esoteric language well the thing that Alexander the Great gave us was this beautiful common Greek language and so man if you took all the your effort and took a class on Greek and oh hi now if I just learned 300 words I'm going to recognize 8 out of 10 word of currencies in the Greek New Testament so take all this energy you know these are like Christian comic books essentially Christian Avengers or whatever same with the new they're called pseudepigriful writings enoc I mean we actually had to turn down someone for an ma thesis who tried to tell us enoc wrote the book of enoc no that did not happen so there is his comic book yeah his comic book the all is your mark yeah well the comic book theology

2:33:51remark you just heard you also heard the remark where he says go learn Greek like instead of wasting time with all the nephilim stuff go learn Greek and that's when I said hmm it's funny you say that go to the sub-tuogen which is the the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures and those scholars that knew coin a Greek that you're talking about just so happen to translate nephilim not as fall in one's kitten they translated it as giants as gigantes and then in numbers 13 gigantossor maybe I'm switching to taste in the toss but in any case any time nephilim showed up those Greek scholars those Jewish Greek scholars they decided to go with the supernatural interpretation if you want to be technical about it you know so it's bizarre to hear this Bible scholar talk like that and not there's so many I'm not saying I know I'm not so surprised yeah it's academia yeah I mean I'm not surprised either but like he's you know you just you would expect more out of a Bible scholar or self-proclaimed Bible scholar or this is just he's like the bono of yeah I was scholars

2:34:56like he's got this rock star thing going I said cow he's got cowboy boots on in the interview and you know he's got like he kind of got an image thing going on like a televangelist it's yeah I agree I agree yeah sort of thing and I'm trying to get to the part where there's a point in this where Sean gives up on it Sean's like gives up on him it just it's like we should just end that but in the episode and I think it's later so I guess I won't I won't go to that but at some point because Sean keeps asking questions and it's clear that he is the guest you know Jeremiah just said I'm bored feels as if yeah he just said he was bored he feels as if these questions are beneath him so what has that I've done this long enough what does that do to the host that makes the host just be like okay I guess we're going to end this like where can I go with this because there's a point layer where Sean was like you know what do you think about the arc of a covenant being in Ethiopia and he and Jeremiah Johnson's like it's not there and

2:36:00goes on this whole thing and there's I think at that point Sean Ryan was just trying to have a little bit of fun and loosen up a little bit but hey you know we don't have to take everything so seriously like what's just some of these are conspiracy theorists let's just have fun and discuss them as such but he's taking everything super seriously and then that's when Sean's like well I think that's the perfect place to end it but I've been doing this along with Sean has and I know as an interviewer that's not the perfect place to end it is just yeah I don't know about it like Sean Ryan had enough of this guy yeah it was being polite you know you could just kind of tell it's just like a little insider thing that I noticed there well somebody had when you had said he has this televangelist appeal I don't know where this is from but Google baby Billy and and Google baby and what you see is going to crack you up because I was talking to some friends about Jeremiah Johnston's appearance on Sean Ryan and they kept they kept calling him baby Billy and once you see

2:37:01it you can't unsee it all right yeah all right I'm actually yeah I got to pull something up though there's the arc of the covenant part that that's next and I won't go I mean we don't have to do that it was a really weird part in there though where he was saying that that he would have that he was like he was like he was like they'll never find he said I he didn't think that they would find the arc of the covenant and he said something on lines of but you know I would touch it I would I would pick it up I'd sit on it I'd carry it around I was like oh that's interesting you know because in the I'm the arrogant yeah I'm from touching it you know yeah I'd be a phrase interesting he's talking about Bible scholar to say things like that and then he also talked about how it's ridiculous to think that there were chariot wills in the Red Sea and like you don't know that they're not in in the Red Sea nobody knows right he's very clearly wanting

2:38:04to the invites to the cocktail party though like I said the the the academic circles are very rigid for a reason if you like like for example I am excluded from certain circles as I tend to accept that the world is far younger than we've been told I have a more literal approach to the old testament as far as chronology is concerned I try not to classify it too much but many would classify it as like a young earth creationist and as soon as you say that in certain circles you're looked at like an anthem like your curse like oh this person's an idiot we shouldn't take them serious at all and I'm like hold the phone we have found T. Rex bones that have soft tissue left in like what are you talking about like we have material that you're telling me is tens of millions a year old and what we found in it when we know how quickly this material breaks down like we we know it couldn't have survived this long so somebody's wrong and I'm just saying I'm just saying so

2:39:04oh there he is I told you baby Billy that so my friend when I was talking to my friends they were like oh man Jeremiah Johnson reminds me of baby Billy and I said what do you mean it that need though the hair and everything oh man I killed some of these are real close this one right here bottom yes yes yes that they look the bottom two here look this this is from that TV show that is this from a TV show or what or no is this a real like right just gemstones oh it's from the yeah from the right I've never I've never seen it but but I I've seen you know Walter Goggan's character and when they told me like oh you got to look up baby Billy and I just look it up and as soon as I saw the picture I knew why they told me to look it up and I just made that is close it's especially the slick bag that bottom left is out is got me oh my god I'm gonna show a picture of him so people understand the power people will understand what time it all right so here's here's is it gonna show me images we'll see it should

2:40:11nope there it is right there center screen there we go this is him this is him in the hot seat with this baby Billy that is that's that's crazy here and then it's too good it's too good and then and then and then and then I'll play this and we can wrap it up at the recess one of his his interesting quotes and that's fine and she sent me a picture of a Jewish magic book it had a bunch of Jewish spells and I had a mummified bat that ISIS had stolen and was trying to sell so the whole antiquities market is challenging you've got to miss where you need experts like me that can check authenticity so I have your central ways that I want to show you more humble brag bro that's the humble brag and then and so this is video right like Sean puts up video and when he when he says that he goes when you need so you need experts like me he does his hands like this like he's sitting your cross from Sean Ryan he goes this is why you need experts like me and does the hand

2:41:12thing like oh look at this flex oh look at the flex like what stop just stop baby Billy it's imagine imagine being in the conversation with somebody in real life and just being like you know and that's and this is why you need experts like me but being serious but being that's why you need baby Billy on the show that's why you need me on here like I know come on now yeah I hear that's you know some and some people probably like 45 minutes ago picked up and knew exactly who baby Billy was before I did so so it's often you guys we knew I don't know what it's from I've never seen the show I just saw that the pictures they told me to look up when I was talking about it before and I heard about it yeah I heard people joke about the show work and talk about it work and several people told me I should watch it because it because you know I'm in the south and it's people there's people here like that you know there's no mega churches around where they have pastors that adopt this sort of classic at this point I guess it's like a classic televangelist

2:42:16televangelist of helium yeah yeah and that's what and the show is playing off of that it's obviously not it's like a mock you entry but it's a mock you enter okay that makes me show at some point I think I have to check it out because Walter Goggins is brilliant so I have to check it out from 100 not an endorsement I don't know anything about it but I but it's made me laugh enough thinking of Jeremiah Johnson yeah it's yeah man this this this so I'm glad we got into it is there anything with in regards to the Sean Ryan show and Jeremiah Johnson that we should that you want to wrap I'll say this I'll say this like yes we've had I've had some jokes here but you know when the the guy is dead on when he's talking about having he's promoting people read their Bible I'm good with that he's promoting people find Jesus I'm good with that he's promoting sharing the gospel and doing what you can to bring people to Christ he also does that he that's part of his message too I'm not trying to demean that part of this guy's message right at all so I think

2:43:21he's spot on with that I just want to give him credit where credits do right but all this other stuff is is I mean there's it's laughable at points I just stick like you said it you said it best stick to what you know is probably the best thing but I don't want to like hate on him too hard because I mean he's a brother in Christ so he just needs to I just wish he would reform a little bit yeah yeah I wish he would avoid certain topics he's not unique he's very much a Christian academic there's certain things he's unwilling to discuss or entertain or that he thinks he's above and that's not a dig that's a statement of fact and he said it himself he's tired of talking about these things I think that's the wrong conclusion to come to based on the evidence but he's entitled to his opinion I do consider him a brother even with the world economic forum stuff we jumped about like I I don't think he's disqualified because of because I guess he's a brother I don't know you know from what I know because like I said but because even when and it was it first in first John you know spirit of anti-Christ isn't going to glorify Christ right and so telling

2:44:24people to pursue Jesus and read the scriptures doubling until you do that so it's not my job to say whether somebody is or is under Christian that's I try not to do that on the show I try not to judge people or doubt people in the doubt people's Christianity's or claims thereof I try not to do that so who I mean I totally will I mean I totally do I'll be I'll be honest with you when it comes to a heretic if he were saying heretical things I if you don't think the Nephilim are supernatural that doesn't mean you're not my brother you know what I mean like I I I have brothers in Christ that believe in tongues I believe in the gift of tongues others don't believe in the gift of tongues okay that's fine we we can agree to disagree on on certain things I think Nephilim are are a peripheral thing as far as orthodoxy is concerned right I don't see you as a fake Christian if you don't accept the supernatural worldview of Genesis 6 I believe Johnston to be a brother we poke fun with the baby Billy stuff just because how he looks I'm a funny looking guy I mean I I get pictures all the time I have friends kind of all over the US and they'll I just remember a

2:45:25few months ago when friends up in New York they were on a subway and there was a bald guy with a beard and they took a picture of him and said hey I found you on the subway today I I'm a basic bald guy with a beard so it's like it was so we're not you know taken super digs on him by saying you know the baby Billy stuff but I mean it's all ingest we attacked his ideas we never attacked him as a person never said he's not a real Christian because he doesn't agree with us we do we do think he takes some of his remarks too far and he can come across his overly condescending I know I can too as I'm digging back because I'm annoyed I am annoyed with how he says certain things and how he portrayed my views or you know um but you know what in my early material on the show I was very polemical very early on I've been humbled over the last two years like crushed by life and through you know just spiritual attacks and stuff so it's it's made me lighten up a little bit but you know even my doctor right yeah this can unlock a spiritual understanding volume of spiritual

2:46:27understanding he says it distracts from Jesus but I know countless people that check out my show that say that no this is what reignited their faith so so I hear that all that's why I don't that's why I don't agree with them where we have clearly different experiences but I wish the best for him I really do I hope he I wish he would look at hyzer's material man hyzer was at his level if not higher I mean hyzer I'm very partial to him he greatly influenced my life and my Christian faith and so you know and he was brilliant I mean the man was was really brilliant and I'm happy for him that he's with the Lord now but but man he was just I wish he was here to have seen that Sean Ryan interview I wish he'd go on Sean Ryan you know like hyzer was here because hyzer he he got some really cool invitations as well but man to see hyzer on Rogan or see hyzer on Sean Ryan that is something we would have seen had he been here a few more years because of Wes Huff I mean he blew up real fast and before you know it he was on Rogan and stuff you know and

2:47:29nothing I love Wes Huff I just think man hyzer hyzer was he would have yeah he would have oh man these shows for sure he would he would have you know they loved him on coast to coast and that was the big show back in the day that was the yeah I mean yeah he placed for the fringe man yeah was the Joe Rogan at least it was for me because I especially for the fringe stuff for sure because Joe Joe gets into all kinds of other stuff too but when it comes to the fringe and paranormal like man coast to coast that was it's influential it has fired me for sure I mean like art bell was a biggest influence on me but Joe Rogan will will even tell you art bell I think he's got a picture of art bell up in this studio so there's there's definitely some some connection there like yeah Joe Rogan I think became the new art bell but now it's not like that at all the that we don't have to get into what the Joe Rogan podcast is currently but like it has changed it was for a minute there like the place you could go to hear conspiracies and but now he's playing

2:48:33it safer now yeah seems like it yeah yeah yeah yeah seems like it but man we you know we barely got to I so we went this direction today because I felt like we should kind of like we were going to talk about this anyway but I just felt I just I don't know man I just felt like we needed to do this today we're it was fun and it was natural man last time I was on it was so rushed because I had somewhere I had to be and I felt like such a jerk I remember texting you after I'm so sorry you know and and but but this time we got to more than make up for it because I didn't have to be anywhere and and and it just the time flew it like I didn't even realize like oh my gosh you know but it was a great this was great this was great as natural we didn't get to Genesis for Nama nope we didn't and we didn't touch on that we touched on it just I touched on it a little bit yeah just say that surface we could talk yeah I still think we should talk about those two things and I you

2:49:34know turn get into that gets more into some of the stuff I'm researching too with ham and all that stuff which you know but I still I still want to hear your point of view it wouldn't be like I know I don't necessarily want to just show you a bunch dump a bunch of research of mine on onto the desk and show you stuff it's not what I'm saying here but I'd like to touch on those subjects so maybe in turn it will help me with what I'm researching just absolutely to have to say about so yeah but before we do the the the the next one you're called but even if you can send me some of what you got because if I can look at it before we talk about it this way I can be a little more informed and actually be able to speak to some of the things whatever you feel comfortable sent to me you can send it over and and I can look over it and we can both have an informed discussion about it too that be awesome yeah awesome man cool cool yeah um that sounds like a plan yeah let's let's wrap it up man because this has been great you like you said the time went by weekly it just flew by

2:50:34and you know hopefully we didn't hopefully I'll speak for myself here hopefully I didn't come down too hard on you Jeremiah Johnson just uh felt like we had this stick up for something that we feel very passionate about that we think is is very important and uniquely important I think this is I think he's a big boy he can take it he'll be all right so we may know disrespect no disrespect road no disrespect so yeah but we'll end it with that do you have anything you want to wrap up with any final statement smell for him no just uh thank you for for having me on thank you for letting me make up for last time this was this was really great uh it was a blessing I hope it was a blessing for those that that that that checked it out and uh you don't have to agree with everything we said but I hope you're gonna deal with the information honestly uh that you wrestle with it a little bit and what I do love at the end of the day uh neither of us has to agree with each other on everything one of my favorite quotes and I forget where I heard it but I heard it many years ago as a baby Christian

2:51:35unity does not mean uniformity we can be one in Christ and don't have to agree with everything that that's true of timidiah that's true of Jeremiah and us you know we we consider him a brother if you disagree with something I said or Tim said you may you still be a brother as long as you don't deny Jesus is the Christ the anointed one the Messiah um what we'll be all right we'll be all right the table's big it's a big table you know and and thank you for letting me sit at yours today of course man of course it's a plighter uh I look forward to talking with you can and doing another share with you man likewise thank you so much tell everybody again when they can find you at the dancing toaster on all the socials and uh i'm apple spotify um anywhere podcaster genuinely found i'm i'm there and i'm working on revamping the video material the youtube stuff i've been lovingly reviewed by some brothers in the Lord that were like you're killing me you need you need to add video to your show so it won't be on like apple and spotify but the youtube channel i'm really looking at um this is this is not a humble rag i know because we joked around so

2:52:39much with jerry about Jeremiah but i was i had the chance to be on remnant radio a second time and uh josh over there was like you need video you really need to do video and i was like i'm so scared to do video i don't want to do it it's more work it's out of my my comfort zone because i'm a i got an audio background with music and stuff but i'm trying to step out of my comfort zone so i'm hoping that the next episode on youtube specifically will have video um but may not be looking at my face because i hate talking to a camera that's why that's why yeah i don't look i'm looking at you on my screen because it's so awkward but but anyways um i i'm grateful that the dancing toaster podcast is is and if you want to email me any questions concerns complaints uh the dancing toaster podcast at gmail.com or you can always message me on any of the socials but uh go go check out the show we have a lot of fun i got characters and voices and stuff i don't have i don't have guests maybe one day but but there are plenty of people out there doing cool uh get guests guest type shows mine is more teaching focus because i'm a pastor uh by by by calling um so yeah that's that's that's

2:53:44that's okay awesome yeah we'll finish thank you Tim and thank you guys out there thank you brother of course of course and we'll have your links below we'll end it with that as always break the mold seek the lord and thanks for listening you