The Business of Heated Rivalry

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The other day, I saw an item of clothing

that was very tempted to buy.

Possibly the most I would have ever paid for an item of clothing.

It was a Montreal Metro's hockey jersey, $150.

The metros are a made-up hockey team from the TV show Heated Rivalry.

Official replica jerseys were on sale for $150,

but totally sold out.

In fact, every single item on the official Heated Rivalry merch site is sold out.

A sign I suspect that the TV show's creators were not expecting this level of success.

Heated Rivalry is a Canadian television show based on a Canadian romance book series.

It's streamed in the US by HBO.

It's about a pair of professional men's hockey players,

rising superstars, star-crossed lovers, very steamy TVMA rated, and it has been.

A giant hit.

I started watching it with my wife.

I think we did it in two tranches, and we loved it.

I love it in your house.

You refer to binges as tranches.

I feel like...

tranches, thank you.

Yes, we're very fancy people.

That's the perfect carousel shirt, yes.

Carouswisher, journalist, podcaster, media icon, I dare say.

And Cara has sort of owned the subject area of technology and business for the last 25 years.

But today, she is here to talk Heated Rivalry and Business.

I think one of the things that really struck me of a couple of things,

is it caused somewhere between two and $3.6 million per episode to make, which is really low.

Yeah, on average, the show was made for a little under $3 million per episode Canadian.

So, like, $2.2 million US.

And what struck Cara was the way that this scrappy little production in Canada

was able to stretch that budget without the show looking cheap.

Getting way more bang for its buck than what she's seen on American productions.

If you've ever been on Hollywood setting, I've done on a couple.

I was on the morning show.

I'm in an upcoming movie with someone named Meryl Streep coming up.

I've been in...

But there's a lot going on, right?

And they film in this way that to me seemed somewhat inefficient.

So, you know, directors may want lots of takes of the same scene,

lots of coverage from different angles, reactions from everybody in the scene.

Heated rivalry, on the other hand, will often stay on one character's face as a scene plays out,

meaning they need fewer takes, fewer extras in the background.

And the reason we're talking about all of this is because I have not been able to stop telling people

what I've learned from a recent episode of Cara's podcast.

That show is called Pivot.

It's co-hosted by NYU Business Professor Scott Galloway.

And typically, the show is about technology and business and antitrust,

lots of antitrust lately.

But Cara took a break from that to talk to the creators of Heated Rivalry

about the business of getting that show made.

Because it's not just that I learned Heated Rivalry was made very cleverly.

What I learned was that the Canadian economic system of making TV and movies

is completely different from how we do it in the US, something I asked Cara about.

I guess naively, it hadn't occurred to me to even think of an American business model

versus a Canadian business model.

Sure.

Were you aware of this?

No, I've covered Hollywood a lot because of the impact of digital.

So I understand their economics quite well.

And one of the things that had been a constant theme was the costs are so high in this country.

And there's got to be different economic systems that they could do really well.

So today we are giving the episode over to Cara,

enter interview with Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady,

creators of Heated Rivalry.

The Canadian business of entertainment lives in contrast to the US business

and I learned so much about the current state of both industries from this conversation.

Oh, and also all that merch I mentioned at the beginning turns out it is a way bigger deal

for Canadian creators.

Cara's interview with Heated Rivalry's creators after the brain.

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So hi everyone, I'm Cara Swisher.

Today we've got a special bonus episode and it's not about anything terrifying or depressing.

It's about the most addictive delightful surprise cultural phenomena of the decade,

Heated Rivalry.

I'm joined today by the show's creator Jacob Tierney,

an executive producer, Brendan Brady.

Welcome you to.

Thank you.

Thanks Cara.

We've been beset by some tech issues,

but nonetheless the gaze will prevail.

The success of the show is about so many things.

Queer Joy, sex, inclusion.

It's an amazing business story and that's really what I wanted to talk about.

So one thing this show has been a giant PR boost in your entire country.

Here's Prime Minister Mark Carney at a recent media event.

The world knows.

The Shane and Ilya rising hockey stars who fall for each other

as they face off in one of the greatest rivalries the game has ever known.

A fundamental Canadian value is that people should be able to be whoever they want to be.

To love whoever they want to love.

So the narrative has become that it was a little show out of Canada.

Obviously, Maiden Cannick is American Disturbs Refraid of the sex content.

But he sort of articulates it rather well,

is that people are upset and divided and this brings a respite.

But I think it's more than that.

But why don't you start Jacob?

I mean, I think that what the show did

in a kind of an unpreachy,

untrying to teach you a lesson way is just present queer joy.

And I think that that's its soft power.

You know, that's the thing that I think people are surprised by.

And obviously our queer lives are filled with trauma and I get that.

And I think we all know that.

But I think that this shows desire to not focus on that.

To focus on other parts of the queer experience.

As fantasy, and I fully admit that it's a romance.

It's a romance, it's a romance now.

I think that that's partly the reaction to it.

Right, Brendan.

Yeah, so I think like the other part of this was Jacob has talked about a lot.

And it was kind of how we were pitching this when we were going out to people,

which is this is a story written by women.

And it's consumed primarily by women.

And we don't take female desire and story seriously in media.

A lot of the times.

There's so many readers of all types of romance novels.

They're there and they are yearning for these stories to be told.

When we were pitching it, we were really crossing our fingers, hoping that we were right.

We were like, there is a built-in audience.

So I think that was the other like secret sauce in this is just like,

this is a massive fan base that have not had their stories taken seriously.

And they got to see it taken seriously and they loved it.

Talk about this, but getting it made.

Like we talk on this success on what it symbolizes.

The difference between Canada and the US, though,

even how these productions are funded.

And let me play very quickly a part of Mark Carney's speech about that of how it was funded.

I'm a politician.

I'm not above taking credit for the Canadian funding.

It helped you share this story with the world.

I might not have been here when the decision was made, but I'm here now.

So yeah, I made, I greenlit this thing.

I stood up to the Americans.

That's amazing.

So I think that like,

our show was made in the Canadian system,

and it is very different from the US.

Let's explain it.

Explain it for people who don't understand.

So basically, the Canadian film and TV system has subsidies

and equity and grant systems that are propped up by the Canadian government.

So when you go to a broadcaster like we did with Crave,

which is the streaming platform in Canada that commissioned the show,

they go and say, okay, great.

Here is a license fee.

Typically, it'll run between 20 to 30% of the budget.

Then we have a tax credit, both provincial and federal,

and that brings another 20 to 30% of the budget.

And then it's always that last little piece that you're looking for, right?

So the benefit to us in Canada's producers is

it's unfortunate that we don't get necessarily the whole budget out of our broadcasters,

but we as the producers own all the underlying IP.

So that is a big difference.

We don't sell it to a studio.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It is our system.

But the limitations on that are you have to go then raise money.

So how we did this with our show is,

we ended up talking to a couple of studios,

some of them Americans, some of them Canadian.

And ultimately, it wasn't the right fit from a creative perspective.

And we understand where everybody was coming from.

It is a, this was on paper,

didn't seem like an amazing, massive hit right out the gate.

And so luckily, when we were going through this process,

Crave's parent company, which is Bell Media.

Bell Media is like, if Comcast and Disney were merged into one in our country,

they own everything from telecommunications to internet

to sports.

And they had divisions like Crave, which is extremely powerful.

Is it their only streaming platform?

Yes, it's their only streaming platform.

And they had just acquired a distribution company

called Sphere Abicus out of the UK.

And so we were looking for that last 30% of the budget.

And they came in for 20 more percent on a distribution advance.

So the last 10% was Jacob and I putting our producer fees.

And we put in almost all of our producer fees.

So what you would have earned for this,

the fees that are standard, right?

That's exactly right.

What was the total budget here?

So we were just under 3 million Canadian and episode.

For people who don't know, it's very low for a right.

Television shows, I mean, the salaries.

It's low for a sitcom.

It's deeply low for a one hour.

It's deeply low for most, those are the salaries of certain people, depending.

So obviously these were not well-known people.

But still, it's still an expensive thing.

I think most US ones, I feel like 10 million is the lowest they make.

It depends.

It's like between four to 10 million dollars in episode US

is typical depending on where your level is.

But yeah, I mean, costs of really skyrocketed over the last decade.

Is it less expensive to make this in Canada from a production perspective?

No, we have an efficient model.

And I mean, yes, it is because we don't have the same level of money

that is being thrown around.

So we, by necessity, have to spend less.

But we also did something here.

We shot all six episodes in 36 days.

Jacob directed all six of them.

We blocked shot them like one giant movie.

We talk about this when studios, especially US studios come and say,

how do you guys do this?

And we go, it's crazy.

You have all of your episodes written before you go into prep.

And that's typically when we lose people and they don't understand.

Right. Because they write it through.

Yeah, exactly.

Although that's changing in the US.

It is. It's crazy to do it the other way.

Especially when you're not doing 22 episodes anymore,

like back in the old model,

when you're doing this volume of episodes,

where it's not possible to have them all written.

Well, you have writers on staff.

Well, you have to just be writing all the time.

But if you're doing, if the new model is eight to 10 episodes,

there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting.

So you start shooting. Go ahead.

Yeah, we start shooting.

And then we do 10 hour shoot days primarily.

Like I'm not going to say it's not every day,

but we try to keep our hours low.

And there's a couple of reasons for this.

A, as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours with crews,

you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime.

But we also just feel that like, you know,

my wife is an assistant costume designer.

She was the assistant costume designer on this show.

She's five months pregnant.

The departments they thank you,

the departments they get hooped,

our hair makeup or drove with these pre calls a lot of the time,

who are those departments run by primarily women.

And so we also just feel that like they're in our business,

we need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15, 16 hour days,

which is where the cost blew.

Right, right. What are you, a lesbian? What's happening here?

Anyway, so Jacob, talk about your production style.

Besides being, you know, truncated, like making it tight,

you keep it, keep it tight kind of thing.

You call it anti-fascist.

Explain what you mean by that.

Well, I mean, I guess what I mean about that is

there's a desire often for perfection that is I think not only unachievable,

but also insane and cruel to be even attempting.

There's no reason to do.

If you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the performance of the actor,

I'm an actor, I've been doing this since I was four years old.

The problem is the scene, it's not the actor.

You haven't written it properly.

If you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish,

there's a fundamental issue.

And by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating,

I don't know what you're gaining.

And so that's kind of...

I just did, I just did a prayer.

It was all day.

I was like, why?

I didn't think it was saying why.

Why is it all day?

To do nine different sizes on a close-up is insane.

All of this stuff is crazy.

I do believe fundamentally that film and TV

is an ensemble process.

It is.

Otherwise, go write a book, go paint a picture.

There's lots of ways to be in total control.

So, anti-fascist might be a big statement,

but it's a rejection of an idea

that everything has to come from one person,

and like what, you know, the brilliant idea.

Yes, it's very top-down.

It's very top-down.

So, when you talk about owning this intellectual property,

what is that main now for you all?

Because I own all my intellectual properties,

so you know, and I think it's important.

Explain why it is for you,

especially in this space.

Because that's something that's been an enathema

to the industry.

Well, I'll tell you what it means is like,

Jacob and I, you know, worked on a show

called Letter Kenny and Shirley,

and the producers of that show made it in Canada as well.

And they had a robust merchandise business.

And when we were in post-production,

we decided because we have,

we, you know, retained all the intellectual property

behind the series,

that we wanted to take advantage of that

and make a line of merchandise, which we're doing,

which is now incredibly, like, it's become

this amazing part of our business

that we're super excited about.

But it also means that ultimately, like,

when we made the decision to reinvest our fees,

it was because we knew that if this goes really well,

we're going to benefit for the next 25 years off of this.

And that is the difference.

And I think, like, what, you know,

people always ask about, or I guess you look

at the Canadian system versus the American system.

The Canadian system, you as the producers,

if you want to take advantage of being

a really, truly Canadian show,

part of the, like, the offering is the broadcasters

can't own the IP, the producers get to.

And some people will look at that, you know,

the, but the flip side in the U.S. is

you're making way more money up front.

I don't think that either is right

on the other is wrong.

I just think that our system is something to protect

for a hundred years.

This business was run on the idea that creators

and the people who made it got to own and benefit

from what they did for their entire lives.

And I think that that's something worth fighting for.

I think so completely.

At some point, I wasn't going to make some or someone.

And I said, you just have to give me IP.

And they said, why do you have to have it?

It's not your business, because I want it, because it's mine.

It's not yours.

The old musician was like, oh, you're on publishing, right?

Because why would you let somebody else

administer your work and take all the profit from it?

That's correct.

And like, we're going to, we have opportunities

and we will work in this system that doesn't have that.

And it'll be fine as well.

But I just think that like, when we talk about,

you know, there's so many reasons

why budgets have exploded, you know, the economy,

like the economy of scale on TV has just

completely fallen out because we don't make episode enough episodes.

We don't keep, contain them into certain locations.

But also, it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit

or a kind of a middle-lane hit.

You seem to win no matter what at that level.

So I think that there is something to look at as we move forward

in these systems of like giving people back at it again.

Like these old ideas should be new.

After the break, more from Cara Swisher's conversation

with the creators of Heated Rivalry,

how streaming is changing the way directors are asked

to tell their stories and what paramounts bid

to buy Warner Brothers and HBO might mean for Heated Rivalry.

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We're back with executive producer Jacob Dierney and Brendan Brady,

who are the people behind this huge hit.

He did rivalry.

I want to play something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan last month

about how streaming is impact of the creative process,

because a lot of it,

part of it are people breaking free,

right, like myself many years ago,

or I have a lot of people coming to me.

I'm like, it's great out here.

Like, you don't need all that stuff.

But let's talk, let's hear what he had to say.

And this is a very successful actor and producer.

So are you said Matt Damon?

Matt Damon, yeah.

Yeah, he's talking about the business.

I've heard of him. I think you've heard of him.

Like for instance, Netflix,

you know, a standard way to make an action movie

that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces,

one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third.

And, you know, you kind of they kind of ramp up

and the big one with all the explosions.

And you spend most of your money on that one in the third act.

That's your kind of finale.

And now they're, you know, they're like,

can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get some?

But, you know, we want people to stay tuned in.

And Ken, and you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated

the plot three or four times in the dialogue,

because people are on their phones,

while they're on their phones, you know what I mean?

So talk about that.

He would, by the way, make an excellent gay hockey player.

But, um,

two old, two old and old gay.

A retired one.

Sure.

A retired one.

I said, I should be clear.

I love Matt Damon.

I've always loved Matt Damon.

Yeah.

So we're talking about that.

What's happening now in the creation?

Do you either of you feel pressure?

We've yet to really experience that.

If I'm being perfectly honest,

crave was not like that.

And I will say that part of what

the reaction to the show that has been so kind of interesting to me

is people saying, like, this is sure you have to pay attention to.

If you're on your phone, you're not going to get it,

because it's so much about what is not being said,

about catching looks between people.

It is dialogue as avoidance and obfuscation.

And the storyline is actually really simple.

They're in love, they can't admit it.

So like, it's actually not a super complicated plot in that way.

But so much of it is about the ways in which they're avoiding each other,

the ways in which they cannot speak.

That's why the sex is so important,

because that's when they're being honest.

And so I think there is definitely a move towards oversimplification.

That being said,

you know, I wouldn't want to make too much of a big deal

about this, like, everybody wants an opening that captures you.

Like, that's not new.

Like, that's been a note since the dawn of time with stories.

Like, let me in, what's the first scene?

Why are you capturing my attention?

I don't think that's insane.

And I think that this thing, you can see it,

I think in a lot of streamers, you know, where you're like,

oh boy, you've just explained a thing to me that I already know.

I get that that can be frustrating.

But I would also add, I am on my phone when I look up and realize you've said it to me

that for the third time.

And I'm like, yeah, you're not wrong.

I did drip.

Right.

But like, and I think that there can be room for both,

you know, and you're meant and pop corny fun stuff that like,

I kind of don't care.

And then every once in a while,

something comes along and you need to pay attention.

And that's what we do.

And then, and then it's up to you to choose,

dude, is that too much for you?

That's okay.

Move it along.

Yeah, I actually didn't look at my, I have a rule like how many,

how many text looks, is it in a movie?

How good is it if I don't pick it up at all?

We have shows in my household with my boyfriend

that we put on to be on our phones with.

We're aware of this.

And we think of them as like visual podcasts.

So when you have the acquisition of Warner, does that affect it?

Not to Arnold, it's a good idea.

Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, we don't, I think we don't, you know,

we have no actual information on that.

I would say, again, we just want more competition

in the marketplace.

Because in Canada, what we have,

like the reason why we ended up on HBO around the world

is because crave and bell media

have the exclusive rights to all of HBO's catalog in Canada.

Yeah, we don't have HBO.

And so we don't have HBO.

You have crave and that has HBO on it.

And so like if we don't have that on crave,

does that affect crave what happens to them?

That's a big part of why people go there.

I mean, now in heated rivalry, obviously.

But yeah, like I think that it's a scary time

as we see more and more mergers happening.

And I for one would love to see just more competition

because I think it's way better when we have more.

But what I would say to, I just, sorry,

is just that because we're in acquisition,

you know, HBO is not actually creatively involved

in the show. I think they say nice things about it.

They're just great. Exactly.

So we're not like, I think that that part

is not really going to change at least in the foreseeable future.

But now that the show's blown up,

they're not suddenly having an opinion about it.

No, because they're still getting it for the same price.

I think it's worked out great for that.

It's worked out really well for them.

Like this is a very successful acquisition.

And I mean, it's clearly working well enough

that I don't think they feel the, you know,

yeah, I think that this is just like going.

But it can go elsewhere, right?

Around the world.

So it's been sold territory by territory

or chunk of territory by territory.

In general, pitched picked up by HBO outlets.

Sky in the UK and Ireland and New Zealand.

A couple of other exceptions to that rule.

But basically what they do is they buy it

and then they have an option on the second season

and potentially third season.

So they get, it's like a kind of a right of first refusal.

So with an increase, they get it.

So it's not really even to be renegotiated.

It's just kind of like you either want this or you don't.

There's no input into the content.

Right, right.

I have a couple more quick questions.

One is about, obviously, everyone here

in the entertainment industry in LA

seems to be in despair in many ways

in terms of what's happening, including with competition,

with AI and stuff.

Do you, is there a big fear for me all about AI?

Because this is the, some of the big hits

this year have been the most non-AI type of content.

Like sinners, weapons, yours.

And we'll continue to be.

Listen, there is going to be a place for AI

in how we work in this business.

I actually think that there are a lot of opportunities.

But I think it is in that tool for creators

not as the creative engine behind costuming.

I think like even scheduling and budgeting

and prepping like those kinds of things

where you take an immense amount of time

trying to just input data.

So much of our jobs are data driven,

like just trying to get information.

Totally.

And I do think exactly.

I think that those are the opportunities

out right away that we will see.

And where I would love for people to focus their attention

because we were experiencing this.

And I'm sure, Karen, you can,

you have had this with your team.

Those moments of friction,

when you're trying to explain something to someone

and they don't get it, that is hard to replicate.

That is hard to do with AI in a way

that actually gets you to a place where you're like,

okay, cool.

We have now communicated together.

I think we underestimate the importance of friction

in the creative experience.

Yeah, I would agree.

That's exactly how I say it.

I talk about it.

The words tech people use are always seamless,

frictionless, convenient.

You know, they're always using those words.

I'm like, no, friction is critical for you being here.

Yeah, what about you, Jacob?

Do you think about it all?

Confuses me.

No, it was the answer.

Like, I don't think, like, I, again,

like the way the, the way the Brendan speaks is about it

is like, that makes sense to me.

I'm like, I can imagine it helping me with some stuff.

But like, I'm gonna write for me.

Like, I don't, I don't want that either.

I love what I do.

I don't want to, I don't want someone.

I don't need that kind of help

is the way I would say, yeah.

So before I go, what would you want to do

if you could do anything?

Like, you guys are now, the world is your oyster kind of thing.

Like, you can do, obviously, you're gonna do another season

of this, maybe two, three, whatever.

What would you want to make?

Um, you know, we are being, we,

I'm certainly being offered a lot of things

and yeah, they are one of which, in particular,

is a dream come true.

So yeah, I'm excited to be able to eventually talk about it,

but I can at this point.

We've got, yeah, and we also, we have a whole

productions company that we're running with, like,

a lot in development.

So it's about getting these projects, the projects that,

you know, from a producer standpoint,

what we really want to get made are, we have a number of shows.

The one that is about to go out is called The King Is Dead.

And I'm gonna plug it right here

because it's going amazing, amazing,

indigenous writer out of Canada named Tim Fontaine.

Crave has already signed on for development.

We're looking for that other partner

because it's basically a,

it's a call, action adventure comedy set in the 1700s.

I know, bear with us.

No, no, no.

Oh, Elander.

Yeah, 100%.

But it's a comedy about a group of indigenous folks

tired of all these white people coming to North America.

They take a boat, traversed back to England

in an attempt to kill King George III.

Oh my god, that's just terrible fun.

So it's a revisionist history.

It's like Monty Python energy. It's very funny and we're very excited about that show.

Yeah, so that's in development with Crave right now. We're very excited about that one.

All right. Well, everybody loves you. Oh, the boys are getting a lot of attention, which they

must be having a ball. It looks like, but you guys deserve equal amounts of attention.

Yeah, we really appreciate it. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Jake. Thank you.

Thank you. And thank you, Brendan.

That original episode of Tivit from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network was

produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin and engineered by Brandon McFarlane.

Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer podcasts and a very, very special thanks this week

to the whole team at Pivot for working with us on this this episode of Planet Money was produced by James

Sneed edited by Jess Zhang and fact checked by Lara Neiman. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer.

I'm Kenny Malone. This is NPR and I mean, is it the cottage?

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