The business of modern dating

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Russia is building its influence in Africa, and it's not just about its military presence. It's opening more cultural centres where Africans can go to learn the language, culture, even study in Russia. So what's in it for Russia and how interested are Africans in learning Russian? More young people in Africa, they want the opportunity to see the world beyond Africa as it is. That is why the most time is in Lendur, Jalandwitch. I'm Hannah Gelbad, come join us on What in the World and award winning daily podcast from the BBC World's Airness. You can listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:00The documentary, home of the best documentaries from the BBC World Service. Hello, I'm Luke Jones and this time in the documentary, it's BBC Conversations where we are bringing people together to share their experiences of the business of dating. We'll also hear how the future is shaping up in the search for love. For more than a decade, one rule distinguished bumble from other dating apps. In heterosexual matches, the women always started the conversation. But a few weeks ago, the company abandoned that USB. Under their redesign, either person can now send the first message, and users will also have much longer to begin messaging after they've made a match. This rule change comes amid a wider stagnation among the online dating market, with the evidence suggesting millions around the world are ditching the most popular dating apps,

2:02and are looking for different options. So later we'll hear from some developers of some alternative dating apps. But sick of swiping, it seems many are taking the more traditional route of looking for love in person. So for our first conversation, I call the Rahul Tandon brought together three people who organize events that bring potential partners together. And as at the scene, we thought we get them to introduce themselves. Hi everyone, I'm Abby and I'm a 29 year old girl living in Dallas, Texas. Last summer in June 2025, I started DADY, which is how I would describe a singles community group. It is a way for singles to connect off of the dating apps through different events that can bring together like-minded people. Hi, I'm Amber and I split my time between New York City and Austin, Texas. I have been producing in-person singles events since 2008. I was the first to do themed events based on people's seating deal breakers, physical preferences, interest, and professions.

3:06So we've events like Hot for Teacher, Rescue Me, which is for women that want to meet first responders, size matters for women that want to all men. And I actually met my now husband at one of our events a few years ago and we've been together ever since. My name is Mi and right now I'm based in Lisbon, Portugal. I have been single for all my life and I own way things. There's something wrong with me. But for the last few years, I realized that I think wrong with me. I just living my best life and being single. However, last year in June, something you just shifted after using a lot of dating apps. I really see a lot of my friends are also single. So I went ahead and created Unseen Connection, a blind-footed dating experience for people to get out of the app and meet each other in real life and without judging each other in two seconds. A lot of people are suffering

4:08dating app fatigue. I think with AI, it's actually made it a lot worse because there's not just inactive profiles and fake profiles. But now there's people that are using AI to write their profiles and do their photos. So it's just not genuine. You don't know what you're getting. And just the amount of time that goes into crafting a really authentic response to someone you're interested in, the back and forth, only to meet in person. Eventually, I mean, it could sometimes take three months to meet somebody. And then there's no chemistry. Chemistry can only be assessed in person. You could like someone's photos. You could like speaking with them on the phone. But when you meet them in person, there's something different that can't be assessed online. Yeah. People all sick of AI in order to be love and love. We need a human interaction. I also believe because of AI of the dating app of social media, people don't know how to talk

5:09to each other anymore. We slowly losing all the skills of human interactions. And I think that the reason why people become more curious and also more motivated to bring this back in. Me, I was reading about your blindfold events, which I have to say has made me feel very scared about every day too. You can have to be honest with you. Tell us how that works. And tell the other two then, you know, what you've seen there. We have two parts in the event. The first part is the blindfolded dating experience where they're going to meet four person that we already matched them in advance. And then after that, everyone opened the blindfolds and then either social mixers open up for each other. Normally, the event is quite small, only 30s to 36 people. We just want to make sure everyone have a chance to talk to each other and have one in one time with the curated match.

6:10Every single person who comes to unseen connection, they tell me that for the first time ever, they realized how important need to listen. And they really listen, they really be present. Nothing distracting them at this moment. And they just fully focus 15 minutes on the date in front of them. Me, that's so interesting. This is Amber. So how does that work as far as selecting matches? So if you meet with a blindfold on and then do they select their matches without ever seeing what the person looked like in person or do they take the blindfold off and decide if they still want to pick a man. Because they go through the application. So based on that, I match them on some criteria that they have about 15 minutes with a blindfolded dating. And then after that, we're going to ask them if they feel the unseen connection. And if both of them thumbs up, then I will send them the information the next day. However, because we have the social

7:11mixer as well, normally, people also try to find that person so they can see the person on the evening, but if not the next day, they will get the information. Do you try and set up people who might have a lot in common? You know, could it be sports? I mean, that's often a good way. Abbey, do you find that helps? Do you do that with your events? Yeah. So we try to have different events that could bring together people that would naturally get along. So we've done a couple of events where it's a pickleball tournament. We've definitely done game day watch parties for football, since football is huge in Texas. But I think the beauty of dating, we have so many repeat attendees that I'm able to really get to know that say, even if they don't meet a person at the event, because I know them personally, I always try to set them up with somebody that I also know personally, whether it's in my personal life or, you know, at the event too. So I try to do a little bit of matchmaking if I can. But the ultimate goal is to just have enough events that are

8:14spread out that are all different kinds so that people can come and meet their perfect match. If you have pickleball and somebody thrashes someone else, it's not the end of that relationship. You know, it's so funny. A girl had come up to me at the pickleball event a couple weeks ago, and she was like, listen, I'm really competitive. And I was like, I'm sure there is another man in here that is equally as competitive and you guys will be okay. Because yes, I definitely think if you were a silly goofy girl or a silly goofy guy and you weren't taking it seriously and you had a competitive partner, it probably wouldn't work out with the two of you. So that's why we had people switch partners after every game so that they could try to find as many people as they could. That's really a cool abby because I like that you're, you know, you're wearing, you know, workout clothes and you're meeting people in a more casual kind of everyday setting, which is kind of nice. Exactly. We did it at 10.30 in the morning on a Saturday, so very casual. But you will often have people who are very similar together, you know, political views, you might have Democrats altogether, Republicans altogether. If you were to ever meet my wife, she would tell you,

9:16we are so different. And there is that phrase opposites attract. So if everyone is quite similar, does that always work? It doesn't always work, but I think we all have our dating deal breakers, you know, I'm five foot nine and I like tall men and I was, you know, paying for singles events back in the day in New York. And I would walk into a room of men that were, you know, under five, seven. So I was taller and heels towering over everyone. So I immediately would be just the point. Not to say that they didn't have other great characteristics, but again, you know, that's something that I'm physically attracted to. And it's very important to me, the height. I see a lot of married people or even couples breaking up later in life because they weren't on the same page as far as kids or their careers or religion or politics. So I think it's actually a really great thing to kind of go into an event knowing who you're meeting at least some of the

10:22initial questions that may be more uncomfortable to ask and, you know, using that as a starting point. People will sometimes come up and say like, oh, it was my first time and I didn't meet anyone. And I always say, come back, try again, come to a different type of event. So say they came to just one of our happy hours come to one that's more focused like a pickleball tournament or something like that that's a little bit smaller. So I definitely think people can be pushed, but I also think we try to give them tools to help them. So we always do an iceberger bingo card where if they fill out their bingo and they bring it back to us, they can enter to win a prize. So typically like a concert ticket or something like that. So we also try to have an initiative for people to go up to one another to talk. So that way that there is something in it for them and they really can't get their money's worth, but I definitely think people can be pushed and it might just take them a couple of events to really get one, the feel of it, but two gain that confidence in themselves. I totally agree on that. We have seen the same when people come to the event. Of course, everyone in over is feeling a little bit intimidated. People still feel a little bit ashamed saying

11:27that, hey, I'm going to this single event, you know, but I think there are no shame on it. And we always try to facilitate people every event. We have different theme. And in each row of the life of the dating, we give them the prompt as well, rather than just asking each other a question, where do you work or what do you do? Every time they step only, tiny little bit out of their comfort zone, that when they're confused in dating, we'll be built. I would say if you're more introverted, that's be dating might be a good start for you because you get sat in front of several people and it's not a lot of work on your end. You know, you rotate every three minutes, you get to meet everyone, but the singles mixers, you know, I always recommend people have a drink to start and kind of take the edge off. And then, you know, we too have a lot of icebreakers, you know, fire first responder one, we have a trivia card that has questions. They were actually asked at the academy, the firefighters, the cops, the EMS. And the women go up to the men and kind of

12:30approach them as the expert to help them in answering these trivia questions, which the men love that as you can imagine. But yeah, we also have, you know, hosts that kind of facilitate introductions. And what I'll also do, which I think is really important, a lot of women come to these events, single, you buy themself solo, as do the men, is, you know, introducing same-sex connections and just saying, hey, here's a wingman, here's a wingwoman. You know, a lot of people won't meet their, you know, love of their life at an event, a particular event, but maybe they meet a new wingman or wingwoman that they can go out with. And, you know, that's also very valuable in this world as well. Where do we go next, do you think? I think the apps are going to start to reach out to in-person companies. Like, we all have, I've already been reached out to, I partner with an app called Secure, which is a new app in New York, state and city for city and state employees, a lot of firefighters, a lot of cops, a lot of teachers. So, you know,

13:34they actually will promote my in-person events to the people on their app that would be interested in them because they have that amazing database. So, I think it's going to be a combination. I think people will use the apps to kind of get more of a background and kind of get an idea of who's going to be at the in-person event and make sure that it's something that's a good fit. But I think in-person events are aware it's at and you'll see more and more companies are popping up every day, as far as attendance. I mean, it's really skyrocketed for us in the past, I would say, you know, eight months actually, we're probably 150% over last year, which is insane. You know, I don't think the dating apps will ever go away, but I don't think that they're going to be people's first instinct when they, you know, quote unquote, want to get back out there. I think there was a time where maybe you went through a breakup or you would take a break from dating and you thought, okay, let me read down mode, hinge or bumble or something like that. And I think now people's first instinct really is leaning on the in-person events, which they are a lot more

14:36effective than the dating apps in my opinion, of course. But I completely agree with Amber that I do think that the dating apps are going to start reaching out to the in-person dating companies. We've been approached as well. And it's something that I think they're going to start trying to experiment with. I've seen in Dallas, Bumble has popped up a few times and done different in-person events, but we were there first. So do you have to say that? And so I think they're going to try to definitely like replicate that energy, but I think first in-person dating events will remain number one, hopefully going forward. Amber, you're married, aren't you? Yes, I'm married. My husband at my size matters. Nighty's six seven. Well, that you've got. An example of success right in front of us that Abby and me, you are both single. Does it bother you? And should it bother people? Isn't that one of the problems with the whole dating scene? You know what's wrong with being single? I'm married. I don't mind being single sometimes. Yeah, Abby here. I think it's your only human and I certainly go

15:38through phases where I wonder why I'm still single. And then there are phases where I have friends that you know get into it with their husband or significant others. And I think thank goodness, I'm not doing that right now. And I can lead my own path and do whatever I want. So there's definitely blessings in being single, but there also are so many blessings of having a partner. So I think just being single is really all about cherishing the time that you have with yourself. You'll never get this back. God willing. And you know, eventually when you have that partner, you'll be thankful for for all the years that you had just for yourself that you could really show up is the best version of yourself one day for somebody. Completely agree with that, Abby. Now being married. I miss my single days and I wish I hadn't been, you know, spent so much time, you know, wondering when it was going to happen, putting so much pressure on myself and not just enjoying the moment that you never get back. Abby in California, Amber in Texas and me in Portugal, all organizers of in-person dating events. I'm Luke Jones and you're listening to the

16:41documentary from the BBC World Service. Russia is building its influence in Africa and it's not just about its military presence. It's opening more cultural centres where Africans can go to learn the language, culture, even study in Russia. So what's in it for Russia and how interested are Africans in learning Russian? More young people in Africa. They want the opportunity to see the world beyond Africa as it is. That is why the most time is in language and language. I'm Hannah Gelbart, come join us on Wat in the World and award winning daily podcast from the BBC World Service. You can listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Get more with BBC podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and Your Dead To Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of

17:41our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription. Incredible true stories shared by people from around the world. Something really strange happened to me. It was getting more and more sad. I didn't know who I could trust. I did not think we were ever going to make it out of the life. Lives less ordinary is the podcast where real life is often stranger than fiction. G'day, my name's Brawlga and I am a full-time kangaroo mother. Lives less ordinary from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. For researchers that study relationships, dating app burnout is a recognised phenomenon, and studies have linked apps to high levels of depression, anxiety and loneliness. Not only can rejection be difficult to deal with, but being the best witty and interesting version of yourself online can also prove tiring. So developers are looking at new ways to keep their users

18:46engaged. And for our second conversation, we brought together the founders of three specialist dating apps. Stacey in the UK is the founder of Ready an app for people who want to start families. May founded Reeve, which is a voice-first slow dating app, she's in Australia, and Adam in the United States founded Believer, a now closed app which aimed at LGBTQ plus Christians. I am an LGBTQ Christian myself. I called it my husband hunting stage of life. I was really committed to finding a partner, and so I really wanted to build something for myself. And so that's what I did. And was it successful? Were you married? I was engaged. We actually broke it off, but I was engaged. But, you know, the app had 10,000 plus connections. I went to about two different weddings. It was a really beautiful experience. I'm glad it happened for the time that it did. My dating app is Reeve. It's a voice-first dating app. So people start having a voice interaction first for five minutes. So it's a live phone call at say. And then after that they decide,

19:47oh, did I have a good connection with this person? And then he moves onto the next stage, which is also a voice chat, but longer. So you get to know a little deeper about the other person. And then it unlocks on the next stage, like video chat, and then the next stage, which is a meetup. Stacey, tell us about the niche that your app sort of picked out in the dating market. I went through my own solo IVF journey at 41. And I originally built ready to, I guess, connect people who wanted to have a family. And now it's a purely introduction platform. It's invitation only. I'm all about fewer introductions and the right introductions. It's definitely not about dating anymore, either. We'll introduce friendship and professional connections too, because I think what people are actually missing nowadays isn't actually a dating app. There's plenty of things. I think there's about 5,000 of them. It's actually people are missing the village that comes with that. I was using lots of dating apps myself, and I was single. I used Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, and some other apps that say that it's for more of an intentional dating. None of those

20:49things really worked out for me. As a woman, I think we talk about dating at the TIG. I was going through that. And I think the app at TIG is quite different for women compared to men. I was filtering too much, and I was filtering for the right person. I was filtering for the wrong things. And even when I tried Bumble, oh, I'm going to be more empowered. I realized I was filtering even more because after getting matched, we need to make the first move. But I'm filtering who's going to be more likely to respond to me. Then I ended up only messaging one out of like 5 matches. And I would put so much effort into my message. So it wasn't really working out. And Hinge as well, I thought I would be paying more attention to people's non-visual qualities like based on their prompts or their comments on my prompts. But as long as there are photos up first, I could not really help myself but pay attention to photos more. Basically, you're going sort of the attractive people who may turn out later to be not quite right. Correct. I could not control

21:53even though I knew that I wasn't looking for someone beautiful. I just couldn't not control. So I realized if I want to pay attention to all their qualities that are not just visual, then I have to turn it off. May, a quick question. I think it's interesting. Voice does remove that video or photo filter or interaction. But I still think that voice does tell something about somebody accent their age, whether they're nervous. I'm curious. Do you think that snap judgment that you have removed it or just moved it down the line maybe a little longer? I mean, people definitely need to get that information to decide if they want to continue the connection, right? So maybe not accent, but more like how charismatic that person is, how that person is caring themselves, how much effort or curiosity they are displaying to you. So that is more important outside information than what photos can display. I think the problem that we have now in dating is that people aren't used to friction. We are

22:53very intolerant of stuff not just landing on our laps. So if we have to fill in profiles, if we have to write messages, I think most people now like use dating apps when they're standing at bus stops when they're waiting for the kettle to boil when they're on the toilet. I think people are just lonely but busy. I think they are so full of distractions in the world that spending time getting to know people is second to getting ahead or earning money or going and doing an experience. So I think what I really like about May is that it's adding a little bit extra with regards to kind of how we communicate. Like if you look at words and I think this is why often we get what the youngsters call the ICC is that sometimes the way we say things aren't really like interpreted the way we're trying to like say it to other people. So we can kind of go off instantly within the first couple of messages. So therefore I think when you're adding voice, you are actually adding a huge percentage of the communication. So there's a lack of miscommunication. I just think people are not used to talking anymore. I mean how many of us even ring our friends?

23:56Yeah. So the first move I think is really the information gathering process for a lot of women. A lot of dating apps are making their first move as just one simple message. That is just not a good amount of information that a lot of women need. And by having that live interaction which is a bit of friction, but it's still fun because it's live, it's interactive, which is why I think this is a better way to really have that filter through the interaction. Do you think we might get to a point? I think there is even a dating app that does this. Where people just end up meeting people in person isn't there a dating app where if you connect it's sort of booksytable, a bar nearby, like an evening that you said you'll be free and you've sort of got to go otherwise you get blocked from the app. Is that the future going even more offline? I think so yes. I think the change that I saw that one thing that we did at Believe It That was a little bit different is we did more intentional in-person community meetups. And I think that has been or was very successful for us. And I think

24:57there's a meme that goes around on the internet that people crave community. And I think that that's very true. That people do crave that in-person meetup. I think any app that can help us do that as humans and create that natural connection, but also get over that social awkwardness and that social anxiety will make billions of dollars. And if you have that idea, let me know I love to help. When it comes to in real life, people have been trying to do in real life for years. And I think the problem is is that we are becoming less skilled in conversation. I think we don't often have opportunities to know who's single in a room when we get a normal events. When I was young, you would go out and kind of when you're young, you can kind of guess that most people in the room is single, but if the older you get, the harder that is. And people are not approaching people anymore. What we did instead, because there is a stigma still with dating events, is that we just launch an event section within the app where you could begin a wilderness, you could be going to a conference in LA, whatever. And you could say that you're going and we'll find other

25:57members that are also going and we'll introduce you so you can meet at the event. So kind of capturing the great events that are out there already so you have similar interests, but introduce you while you're there. Rather than I guess there's single, quite awkward in real life events, which is just really dating app with drinks. Stacey, May and Adam, sharing their experiences of developing dating apps. Thank you to all of them and to all our guests this week. Maybe if you're looking for love, that's giving you a few ideas, who knows. I'm Luke Jones and you have been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. Russia is building its influence in Africa and it's not just about its military presence. It's opening more cultural centres where Africans can go to learn the language, culture, even study in Russia. So what's in it for Russia and how interested are Africans in learning Russian? More young people in Africa, they want the opportunity to see the world beyond Africa as it is. That is why the most time is in Lendrosh and Londwich.

27:01I'm Hannah Gelbart, come join us on What in the World and award winning daily podcast from the BBC World Service. You can listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.