The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast - Beth Moore on Knowing When It's Time to Leave and Proof-Texting Scripture to Keep the Pulpit and Power

The Art of Leadership Network.

That mindset.

I think that it's brief texting using scripture

to protect power and to make sure all the power sits right here.

Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast.

Hey, I'm so glad you joined us today.

For all of you who are new to listening.

We're really glad you're here.

Today on the show, we have got Beth Moore.

And we talk about, how do you know when it's time to leave?

She left the denomination 10 years ago.

We talk about what's really going on around the issue

of women in leadership while there are different views.

Some people just like to proof text.

To keep the pulpit and power, she talks about that.

We also talk about why so many people,

and especially women, are leaving the church

and a whole lot more here on the podcast.

Really glad that you've joined us.

We got a lot to talk about.

Beth Moore is an author.

She is a speaker.

She is a vital teacher whose conferences

has attracted millions around the world.

She has written numerous books.

We talk in particular about her memoir,

which is extremely well written.

It's called All My Noted Up Life.

And now without further ado, my conversation with Beth Moore.

Well, Beth, I've been looking forward to this conversation

for a long time.

Thanks for coming on.

I am so pleased to be here, Carrie.

Thank you for having me.

So I love what you say.

I think it's on the back cover of your book, All My Noted Up Life.

But it's like familiar to many, but known by few.

I thought that is a really good description

of just pretty much everybody who's listening to this podcast

because their church leaders, they have a platform.

That is a phenomena I find really interesting.

How has that shown up in your life in ministry?

Familiar to many known by few.

I think that from a lot of us who have been out

there a while, so think in terms of perhaps my peer age

or even 10 years younger than me,

but out there long enough to learn some things the hard way.

And some of those things are that you say too much

and then wish you could back up and retract some of it.

And so you learn along the way.

And then the tendency is to swing the other direction,

Carrie, and I bet you can relate to this where, OK,

I learned my lesson saying too much.

Now I'm going to err on the other side

and I'm going to keep my course really, really close.

And it's just a matter of growing up in ministry

long enough to figure out the balance of the two.

And what I really want to share as something

that I'm convinced is a benefit, that's the question

I have to ask myself.

I like to just put my life out there.

What do you need that I can give you?

And I say, especially to women, because that's

the primary area of my ministry, I say to them constantly,

I can't give you what I don't have,

but whatever I have is yours.

And so I like that, that transparency

to be able to share life experience and that kind of thing.

But there is that crossover into then what is not secrecy,

but just some amount of privacy.

And I also, I want to say this, I think

this is a really strange dynamic for the time

we're living in for our younger ministry families.

Now you can put your kids all over Instagram, TikTok,

whatever it may be.

This is a whole different ballgame now,

because how in the world are you ever going to take that down?

But there's the question of, I've also

dragged my family into this.

So I have to thank lots of times.

Most of what I have kept private has been because it was like,

is this my story to tell not theirs?

And with my siblings, I feel that way.

It's like, they didn't ask for all of this.

So trying to navigate particularly,

when you were talking about the back of that book,

particularly in a memoir, trying my hardest to stay with,

OK, this is what my story is without getting

into what might be private to them.

So I think it's a constant navigation.

But I think it comes down to what is beneficial

and what still protects the people

that don't want to go to a microphone with me.

Yeah, they didn't sign up to have a, quote, famous sister,

a famous mother, a famous whatever daughter, uh-huh.

I think that's, I think that's a really good point, you know,

when social media started, I was a little more free

in sharing family moments.

And I've kind of really dialed back.

I'm like, there's stuff that's for me,

not because it's inappropriate or anything like that,

but just because I think the richness of life

is not everything has to be shared online.

No.

And I wonder, I don't know what age you are, Carrie.

I know you're good bit younger than I am.

Just turn 60.

OK, all right.

So I am almost, almost a decade older.

But I wonder if you have curbed some of that

for the same reason I have, which is,

or that you're more sensitive to it.

Let me put it that way, that you're

watching what you think with some of our younger ministry

friends might not be the best idea.

I will think to myself over and over.

I don't know if you're going to end up

glad that you put all of that out there and made your life,

basically a reality show because I'm all for sharing family

moments and things like that that are fun.

But if my whole life is out there, now I have opened my home

to a whole different kind of, what can I say?

Just not always criticism, but that there

is always going to be opinions about it.

Now I have invited them into a private place.

So that is a really big part of it,

is that I've sort of find myself now pulling back

because the more I see society going in,

the more I'm beginning to pull back.

Yeah, it's funny.

I see the same thing.

And I was thinking about that, ironically,

not prepping for this interview,

but just over the weekend, some people I follow, you know,

and they have three or four kids, and they're all very young,

maybe under the age of five or whatever.

And it almost is like a reality TV show that's

showing up on Instagram or TikTok.

And I just wonder what that's doing.

I mean, you now have, you know, I think

there've been lawsuits and cease and desists

and, you know, kids who have grown up

because social media is 20 years old going,

why did you do this to me?

Yes.

But it's a really good question.

Everybody loves to look at everyone else's life

and make comments.

I can remember, it only takes one big regret

to just harken to you constantly

with putting out something that is deeply personal

to the family.

But we had a broken engagement, Perry.

This was many, many years ago in our family.

Yeah.

And we had made it all like, oh, they're engaged

and all of this kind of thing.

Kind of chronicled the whole thing on social.

Yeah.

And so you, I don't know how to explain this exactly

because this might have been something that was more

the inclination of women and women bloggers

and women audiences.

There was quite a lot of bonding in those days.

Now, there's some of that on Instagram

and some of that is the reason why I've even stayed

on access because I have friends there

that I don't want to leave.

And they're the only place I have them.

But in those days, Kerry, I mean,

we just put out so many personal things

and wrote long articles about it.

All the pictures, chronically, the whole thing.

And then that engagement was rightly not because of any

role.

There was no sign on either part.

There was no, nothing terrible to say.

It just wasn't the right thing for them

to follow through with.

They just broke the engagement.

And then we had to go back and track through

every single bit of that and navigate that.

And the pain it added to that daughter,

I never want to be in that situation again.

Never.

Wow.

It's a really good point.

And you know, I think to be fair,

because I've think of it,

social media is 20 years old.

But I think if that was, let's say,

even 10 years ago, 15 years ago, whatever it was, Beth,

we didn't, we were figuring out social media

as it went along.

And we didn't understand.

It was really only I'm trying to do a timeline.

I'm working on a new book on AI and blah, blah, blah.

But I'm trying to figure out like,

I think the unintended consequences sort of entered

the field, maybe in the mid 2010s.

That's the first time they were kind of like,

oh, this isn't all good.

And if you're young listening to this,

looking back on it, it was like,

duh, but we didn't know at the time.

We were figuring it out.

100%.

I want to throw this in because there,

I would even put it exactly where you're putting it

on the calendar.

Because I haven't researched it just from my particular

observation.

And I'm a big people person.

So I happen to like the whole social aspect.

I'm intrigued by social media,

all of these things and watching cultural trends.

This is all my alley.

So I really like that.

But there is a big part of me that thinks in some ways

that we have to go back and glance at, say, 10 years ago

and to some extent, forgive one another

for being caught in a maelstrom of social media,

up-heaval.

I mean, I'm talking about when this was like,

the trash bin was on fire.

I mean, it was like and all of us saying everything

that came to our minds.

And I still speak my mind, Carrie,

but I'm careful about it.

I will give it thought first.

When in those days, I was just willing to fight.

You know what I'm saying?

And if you start asking, you look back and go,

what and who did it change exactly?

And you know what I'm saying?

I'm willing to fight for change.

But are we going to fight for no change at all?

And in fact, are we going to fight for only

for what we were fighting for to be doubled down on

in the opposite direction?

And it's not, Carrie, it's not that I would go back

and change the things I said or did online.

It's that I would not be as inclined to do them today.

Like, I haven't, I can't think of many things

I've changed my mind about, except the effectiveness,

how effective it is to take on a big fight in public.

That is something that I would, would say,

is a colossal waste of time.

Yes, the answer is it is not effective devil big public fight.

But my daughter will say, we still call it Twitter.

So forgive me, because I'll, I'm, she'll call it X.

But I have a good friend that calls it Zitter.

And, you know, I get that because he just puts you together.

But my youngest daughter puts it this way.

And I think about it so often yesterday,

morning, Carrie, I deleted something that I was just about to post.

I read it and I thought, do I want to take this song today?

And then my answer to myself was, no.

But she says it this way.

She says, I don't hate myself enough to get on Twitter.

I think there's a certain part where that is legit to just say.

So, you know, in a way, I, I do think that there should be

some grace over a time period that we were caught so off guard.

We did not understand bots.

I, I wouldn't have thought every single thing that was being said to me was being

said personally in those days, Carrie, because what I wouldn't have known any

different, you know, he was weak.

I think I still think it's all people not bots.

But yes, well, I know that's not true.

So, you find out ways to track it to see, and if you begin to look,

there are certain giveaways for an account that is not, that's fake.

It's not necessarily a bot, but it's fake.

It's been, it's someone arguing with you that doesn't even know you.

That's just trying to keep you on that particular platform.

But it's, it's just also intriguing.

And I think back and I sort of want to be forgiven for not being able to keep

a good control on my tongue.

And I also have forgiven some people that haven't asked for it.

But I thought, you know what?

I think your mouth got away from you and so is mine.

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So I remember some of those Twitter fights from 8, 10 years ago,

that kind of thing.

And obviously, when you exited the SBC, that was quite controversial.

And you really engaged.

You didn't just put yourself out there.

And I think we covered that period well.

But I'm going to ask a different question now,

because I think a lot of leaders are asking this question.

What is worth fighting for?

Because if it was a dumpster on fire 10 years ago,

it's a toxic sinkhole today for the most part on social media.

Is there anything in your view worth arguing about on the internet?

Oh, absolutely.

I want to take that in a little more general.

Sure, yeah.

Fear, if you'll let me carry one of the things I try to do.

I think this through in my marriage,

I think this through in extended family crises

or personal dynamics, whatever it is.

And I certainly think this with social media,

to be able to think through, if not actually

pray through, which is really what it needs.

Am I fighting against or fighting for?

And I do think I'm thinking of Paul talking

about the Corinthians, for example.

And when he said, I'm jealous for you

that you have a sincere, wholehearted love for Christ.

You know, he was jealous for them, not of them.

I think when we are fighting for something

and not just against something, and I'm one of the things

that I think characterizes our current climate socially,

is that we have become addicted to fighting against.

I'm not sure have of us know what we're even fighting for.

We just know what we don't like.

We're fighting against it.

We're fighting against the other side

because there's something emotionally to be gained by that.

I think anger is a huge, huge energy drink.

I really do, it's that internal IV

and it's giving all sorts of fuel to just energy.

I think we're exhausted.

I think we like to be energized.

And so we're gonna get mad.

And so we're mad at people instead of wishing

longing for something for them.

And so let's go back to the SBC a little bit

because I wouldn't even need to tell you

how much I loved my denomination.

And I'm trying to think what would even be comparable

to it as far as something that I suffered

in the last years, it would feel like that loss.

And I would tell you, right before the end,

Benmore came out, my brother,

that I talk about very fondly, my dear big brother,

who was just my, well, my best friend, my best friend.

He died suddenly in a heart attack

and I mean just dropped dead.

I'm no warning, nothing, just that's when you get a phone call

and it's already over before you have the chance

to even respond or run to a hospital

or get to anything and that the loss of my life

long denomination was upset like that.

But it was that radical a loss, absolutely.

Not just the loss of some of what it would feel

like to lose a friend much dearer than that.

And perhaps the way to put it,

if anyone who's familiar with my story

certainly the memoir knows that my home

was not my safe place, Carrie.

Growing up, my church was.

So that, I mean, I just, a lot of people

had been hurt by the church.

I didn't buy God's grace

and maybe because I was so hurt in my own home,

I don't know.

A lot of people are hurt in those places.

These things, we can't sort all of this out,

but I was not hurt by the church.

It was a safe place that always was.

I can't think there were churches that are more

dear to me in my history than others,

but all were a blessing.

I didn't even have all that many.

It probably was five in my lifetime.

And those were because of primarily other moves.

But when it, so when it, when that brokenness came,

it was a sense of losing family, losing home,

no, losing home, losing home,

and a home, but home, that that,

that was my place of belonging.

So what finally brought that decision to pass

was that I came to a place where I realized,

I had fought so hard for something going back

to what the point that I was making a few minutes ago,

I was fighting so hard for it,

for my denomination, for us not to pull

so far into what I'll call and somebody else won't.

What, I would just call alter a fundamentalism.

I was just like, oh, please, please, please,

let's stay a bigger tent than that.

Let's, this is unrecognizable to me,

just fighting for, fighting for women to just,

have a place to serve, not asking for a certain platform.

I'm asking, do they get to use their gifts?

These were things worth fighting for

and then certainly for the protection of people from abuse.

These were, oh, fighting for,

but when you realize that two things,

that it's only causing the pull in the opposite direction,

and that you've become, I've become a,

what can I, a cautionary tale,

where I knew that I was part of what scared other women

that were leaders that say, for instance,

were in their 30s, 40s and 50s,

were very much seen what was happening

and that some of their responses would be,

I don't want that to happen to me.

So I'm going to now, I'm going to retreat,

I'm going to pull back, I'm going to,

I'm not even going to try.

These were, these were things that became a concern to me.

And the other one was that I realized

that I was causing more trouble in my denomination.

I was no longer a blessing.

And I can't,

I truly, to this day, this was the one from my throat,

I'll never get to where this is,

an easy thing for me to get out of my mouth.

I had served it since I was 12.

I have never, I had never known any other place,

any other denomination.

And I began literally serving at the same,

at the time that I would have graduated out of VBS,

but I guess you're a Bible school.

So 12, that I started helping with VBS

and then started helping with Sunday school

and then started helping with,

with young adolescent girls

and all of youth and then on from there.

And you know, I, I loved them

and had served so hard and served those women

and having to come to groups with the fact

that you, you're not, you're not a blessing to them anymore.

And that was, that's time to go.

When you have now caused what,

what you feel like are so many problems

that people just wanna see you go.

And I'm not being pitiful about that and not being out.

There's no, no, no, no,

martyrs in Rome in that, nothing.

I'm not, I don't wanna talk like a victim in any stretch,

is just when you realize that you are not

a positive that you become a negative.

And that is when you think, okay,

I've overstepped my welcome.

I'm no longer, I'm no longer welcome here.

That's the best way I know to put it.

And I am so happy to tell you, Kerry.

You know, it's been a while since I've talked about it.

So I can, I can really feel the love of my throat.

I'm so happy to tell you that some healing has come to pass.

Yeah, how so?

Yes, and I'm not from the top.

I would not say from, not officially and formally,

nor even a majority,

but as far as a number of pastors

I've heard from along the way,

invitations that I've gotten to come and speak

as Southern Baptist churches.

I think just because time goes by,

I honestly think if I could be so bold,

that somehow the thought got across and then multiplied.

This, this was a hard, hard thing to watch

because you're watching yourself characterize

as someone leaving the sound doctrines of the faith.

When you know, you know, that's not true.

And you, but there's nothing you could do about it.

And I so time goes by and I think that some people

were fair enough to just go, well, do you know?

She didn't, she didn't actually leave the Facebook.

Do you expect it to, it was so, that's a good,

that's a gift of time, isn't it?

So some of the, yeah, that you're not quite the heretic that.

What the heretic, not quite.

Just sort of, you know, the, the old way

where no, the, the ones that are most conservative,

they were all the ones that, that threw up in the doors

to me in the first place.

So it would have been more than ones that I,

we're more prolifically served before.

So those, I have sort of come back around

to some extent and decided, well, they,

and they may have moved on to other Bible studies,

but they may have decided, in that point,

maybe she's not the heretic we thought she was.

It is, it is funny.

I left the denomination almost 20 years ago

and I got a call.

Yeah, Presbyterian, and I love Presbyterianism.

There's so much of it.

To me, Tim Keller was the embodiment

of what Presbyterianism could be and should be.

Yes.

Really admire him.

And it was one of those things.

It was my call to go, I just saw a couple of things

I don't want to get into right now

that I wasn't comfortable sitting with,

just a change, a drift.

And so I left and, I mean, it was a bit of a story

in our country, but anyway, at long story short,

I got a call two years ago.

And it was from somebody high up in the denomination

and he just said, hey, you were saying things 20 years ago.

I don't think we were ready to hear.

Would you come back and share those ideas with us?

And I'm like, you bet I will.

I'll be there in a heartbeat.

And it was just so healing to come back and to share it.

It's so healing, Kerry.

I did not know that.

Do not think we wouldn't have gotten in a conversation

a long time ago about this.

I don't know.

I have this desire to sit around a round table someday,

which is just a pipe dream.

But with people that have sort of had similar journeys

that have some miles on their a docket with ministry

that have been full on in it.

I'm not talking about that just, you know,

maybe a 10 to 10, you know, I'm talking about that

full on in ministry and then decades later

look back over some of it and talk about it.

I just think that would be the most fascinating conversation.

But Kerry, if I find this intriguing

because would you say that this is true?

That by the time it does start coming back around,

God has accomplished what was purposeful in you.

He let it take that much time.

I say that because God has done so much in these 10 years.

And I look back and I think, no,

would I have learned those things and experience those things

and let him do the deep work that he has done in his life.

And I don't know what he's going to do.

I don't know what he's going to do.

The deep work, apart from that,

and since we're talking to leaders, let me say this,

we will get tested.

We will.

It's not that we might, if you live long enough

and you serve long enough and you're in it,

you've given your heart to it,

you will not escape a couple of tests

that God is determined for us to pass.

And one of them is, will we choose to keep the approval

of our mentors and those to whom we owe things?

Like, over-respect, like they did invest so much in us.

They did have a lot of favor on us,

all these things that will we choose them

when we come to some decisions

when we come to, this is what I believe the will of God to be

and this is where these that I really want to please,

this is where they are.

Are we going to go with God or are we going to say,

listen, God's more merciful than people.

I'm going with them and he's going to forgive me.

And this is a temptation.

It sounds, it sounds comical, but boy, does this happen.

We're going to get that test we are.

We're going to be tested on who's the approval

when it comes down to it.

There are people who don't care if they are pretty or not.

I've done that.

The people, your community, your circle,

the people that have raised you up in ministry

or have beat your compadres or your partners,

when there will depart so well of God for you,

what you are going to do.

The other one is we will be tested on numbers.

We will, we will, and sometimes,

sometimes this will be numbers of be it followers,

the size church, the size ministry,

but numbers may also be money, finances,

paycheck, whatever it is,

will we accept that once we make a particular stand

or make a particular decision that we believe is

in the will of God, will we be willing for it to have

really powerful effects on all of those things?

Are we?

Negative consequences.

Yes.

Are we willing to let God use it as the pruning of our lives?

I mean, when I say the size of our ministry,

I try to think how many years this would.

When I tell you that we went from enormous groups to,

I mean, downsizing all those overnight,

and to be at peace with that,

and be able to say, come what may,

this is, this is how it's going to have to be,

because I've got to go with what I believe

the will of the law.

Because your convictions,

your convictions cost you audience,

they cost you dollars, they cost you a lot.

It's not a joke.

I mean, some of this stuff,

they just say, well, surely that he'll just bless you.

Yes, he will.

Yes, he will.

And yes, he has.

I had a, and have enjoyed a fellowship with the Lord

through all of that that I would trade anything for.

But will he allow these kinds of things

to have an enormous impact,

so that we can, according to 1 Peter chapter 1,

prove genuine.

And that's going to be scary.

He's going to be after that.

Don't just going to escape that.

He will, he will test us to prove

that we really do have it in us.

We really are people of faith

and we will choose him when it comes down to it.

We're going to choose him over and over.

And, you know, it's going to be painful,

but it's going to be peace.

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What is your advice when people come up to you

and say, I'm thinking of leaving my denomination,

I'm thinking of leaving my church,

that kind of thing?

But let's keep it at the macro level at the highest level.

I get that question from time to time,

probably because I've done it.

What's your advice to them?

Well, one thing I'm going to ask immediately

if I'm in the position where I came.

But I'm going to assume that someone's given me

that open door of things asked me,

I'm going to ask why.

What is it that you're in?

Yeah, there's some valid reasons in your...

Absolutely.

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

But also all the way down to...

This is why we...

Terry, we as the people of God

have to learn to walk with God.

We've got to.

And I say this because even if we are unsettled,

sometimes we don't know why God has told us to move.

We don't know.

We're just like, I don't know.

I've been moving it from an entire denomination,

but I've done that in anything.

We can just be like, I'm unsettled.

I don't know what is here.

I've always been so plugged into this church or this community.

And I just feel like God has put the word go on me.

I mean, that word go...

It is characteristic of both eras of time

where Abraham and Genesis 12 and with Matthew

in the close with the Great Commission go, go.

So go means buy.

I mean, it just does.

There's no going without leaving.

And so it can be a legitimate reason

to leave just because you cannot get settled

that the Lord has told you to stay

that for some reason you are supposed to leave that group.

And it's not because of any wrongdoing.

You're just...

So there's that.

I want to go in and say that.

There are times that we go because God just goes.

I have another thing I need you to do.

Sometimes He'll call us to leave

when we've never loved that environment more.

But He's looking for us to obey Him.

And sometimes it's very costly.

But other times, here's what I didn't say it well

earlier in our conversation.

So I'm going to say it better now perhaps

when I would tell you to go

is when you flat out can no longer stay.

I am a stayer.

I don't think that's a real word.

But it's the only word I have known to use

in conversations like this along the way.

You can look at my marriage of almost 47 years.

And through lots of ups and downs.

And my friendships, I have lots and lots of long friendships

and long relationships.

And even with publishers, I don't jump around much.

I like the relational aspect of it.

So my inclination is going to be today.

What I have to believe in what I would say

to others that are in ministry

or in some kind of leadership,

what you're praying for is a word.

You make your ways.

Make me where I'm sensitive to the leadership

of your spirit and that when you've got

when you want me to leave, that it will be impossible to stay.

And one of the things that you're just like

about to jump out of your skin,

it might not even be anything negative.

But what I will say, Kerry,

if we would leave when the Lord says,

when He first begins,

if we'll look back all of us who've been around

as long as you and I have.

And I'm older, but I'm just saying,

we have put in miles with the Lord.

If we'll look back on our life experience in ministry,

we will see numerous times

when the Holy Spirit was already saying,

detaching you from this group or this community

or this circle of people or this workplace

or this part, whatever it may be.

I have someplace else I want you to go.

We're already knowing we need to go.

We need to go.

We don't want to.

We have relationships there.

So what will happen is because we don't want to be sad.

We wait until there's a crisis

because we can leave better, mad than sad.

It happens over and over.

So a conflict is forced.

Now, I'm happy to tell you that did,

that's not what's not the case with the SBC.

I did not, I wasn't feeling that desire to,

to leave long before, so that wasn't the case there.

But I can think of, I can think of half a dozen

that if I'm looking over 40 solid years,

really a little more than that.

Over 40 years of ministry, I can think of several times.

I overstayed the will of God.

And what would have just been sad had to turn into

something where I got to whatever degree,

maybe they never, never even knew,

but I had to get my head.

A conflict happened.

Interesting.

I want to go back to something you said,

you know, your childhood,

and you wrote about it in your book.

Difficult at times.

Do you want to talk about what happened

and how that shows up later in life for you?

Oh, dear Lord Jesus.

The difficulty at times is the is such a gracious way

for you to put that here.

Yes.

I was raised, I thank God to be able to say

in a church going home.

And I, what?

The debt that I owe my parents for that is inestimable.

So let me say that because again,

that was, that was my place of safety.

It was a place where I felt accepted.

It's a place where I learned about Jesus in Sunday school.

And you also have to understand,

would you, okay, so you put me at just just shy of 70.

I'm in a different time generation than some of our listeners.

So in, in my parents' day,

a lot of my peers would tell you that their parents

didn't talk a lot about God at home.

That it was mostly we're going to take you to church.

That's where that happens.

It's not that there isn't a blessing set over the meal,

but as far as my parents raising us up in the things of the Lord,

no, there wasn't any discussion really about Bible reading

or anything like that.

I mean, we knew where our Bibles were on Sundays

when we got the card to go to church.

And that kind of thing, but it just,

it was a bit of a different day.

I have some friends that are,

Ray Orland's parents very much raised him and his family in the Lord.

That was not our case, but we did go to church.

And so I'm very thankful for that.

But our home, under the roof of our own home,

our lives were so, so unstable.

My father was an unfaithful man to the Lord.

And I say that not as a judgment of his heart or motive,

but because of events that happen,

things from outward actions that certainly conveyed

that there was a darkness in that life.

So he was not faithful to my mother nor was he,

I'm going to keep this singular to myself,

because here's where I don't want to tell the stories of my siblings.

But they would have their stories to tell.

I will simply say that what I told for a really long time,

early on, early on.

So Barry, now this is more than you asked,

but I was counseled as a very young speaker

that I finally told an older woman who did,

he was a speaker that had mentored me some.

I finally told her that I had been abused as a kid

and she said, and I understand why she said it,

she said, I would counsel you not to tell that publicly.

She said, I don't think people can handle that.

And I, you know what, I should,

you would think that I would have been young enough,

because I was young, to take her counsel and go with it,

but I couldn't do it.

I couldn't, you see it in the very first thing I ever wrote.

I made reference to it.

Because, Carrie, I felt like I couldn't even be understood.

I don't know another way to put it.

It's not that I want people to think,

oh, best in the first descriptions they'd have in me.

Oh, yes, she was victimized as a child.

No, I wouldn't even want that in the first paragraph,

but it's part of my jury with Jesus.

If you asked me, okay, perfect example.

People, young women will say to me all the time,

I want what you have.

I can't, I cannot tell you.

And I should have a name because I knew people

that I thought, I want what you have, I want what you have.

And it really has something beautiful at the rate of it

that you have to go down into and realize it's not the person,

but it's that during for Jesus.

Well, think that I always say back to him as well.

If you want what I have,

you should have what I got.

No, and that's a thing, right?

You sign up for someone's whole life,

everything that shaped them.

And they don't want my whole life.

So life goes on.

And so it becomes very much a part of my,

that's open then.

The Bible studies, many of them all,

I would make some kind of reference to it.

Any, any woman that had been with me

for years in Bible study would have known

that I had a background of abuse,

but I just never told to.

But when I went to write them them more,

so I was almost, you know,

I was creeping in on 65.

And I had wanted for a couple of years

I was beginning to be inclined to wish I could tell it.

Then it was my own,

there was my own father,

and it was within my own home.

And nuclear family,

because,

that's a big one,

that's a big one.

And I was just,

I couldn't do a place where I wished

those people who have my kind of background,

they need hope so badly.

When it is that personal,

when your protector has become your perpetrator,

you're now in a zone,

you need Jesus,

and you need good, good support

and help so desperately,

and good professional help,

and good, this is now,

this will mess you up.

And so I got so stirred in my heart to share it.

So I did in the memoir.

I shared it.

And so I can't,

I don't know who I,

who I would have been,

would say what impact has that had

on your ministry?

Well,

I can't think

who I would have been.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand

that I'm saying it was worth it to me.

I'm not saying God had left it happen,

so I would be,

deeply inclined in misery.

I'm not saying any of that.

I'm saying God is faithful not to waste anything.

And what he did,

he gave me such a heart for women,

such a heart to encourage them

in the dignity that they have in Christ

and who they are in Christ.

And it gave me,

it gave me so much compassion

and empathy,

and I'm not scared to use that word.

I can look at a group of women

that maybe we,

maybe the group has been pulled together

because it's women who are hurting

and I can go into that zone.

I can touch that place in my heart

and I can,

I can feel so much of what you're feeling.

And so,

I just,

it was part of what shaped me.

And I,

I just,

I would not be the same person.

It shaped how I applied the word.

Okay, okay, Carrie.

I, I had to apply the scriptures.

I didn't get the

luxury of just studying to study.

I wasn't going to make it.

And I mean this all through.

So I don't mean that this was true

when I was 16, 18, 21.

I'm saying full grown adult,

30s, 40s,

and so forth.

I,

I just don't have that option.

I,

I had too many things that against me.

I have,

it's too challenging.

It's too,

it caused consequences

that I still deal with today.

Now, the healing,

the emotional healing of it.

I'm so thankful to say is,

is,

is advanced.

So that,

that I praise God for.

But,

oh, it's,

it's a,

a huge thing

and

important to me,

it's important to me,

that

whatever is the Lord

allowed in my path,

to me,

redemption is

that He turns around,

this is going to sound corny,

and makes the devil,

sorry,

he messed with me.

Mm-hmm.

You know,

almost 800 interviews in,

and I'm really sorry

for what happened

to you best as a,

as a child.

I really am.

But what I hear over and over again

from the people that I interview

is whatever their story is,

whether it's abuse

or it could be,

you know,

being raised in poverty

or with single parents,

or as an orphan

after their parents were killed,

or something like that,

because you hear variations

of so many stories.

In a lot of these leaders,

they become,

I wouldn't say grateful for,

but reconciled to the fact

that, yeah,

that is the childhood

that's part of my DNA

in the same way

that you could have been raised

in a wealthy home

or non-abuse of home,

or that kind of thing,

and it propelled them

on to create a drive in them

or something in them

that propelled them

to where they are today.

It's true.

Do you see that pattern

you know the most best?

100%.

That's why you look back

and think,

I'm so glad I can't

do it all over

and get to choose what's in it

and what's not in my story

because this,

this is what

God put together

that all blended.

You know, we're a blend of art.

Our DNA are

all the things

that were poured into us

through whatever education,

lack of formal education,

whatever it may be,

all of these things

are skills,

are spiritual gifting,

whatever it is,

all of this,

all of this comes together,

all of these forces

come together

and make this person

and to just be able to trust him

with the healthiest version,

let me say that,

the healthiest version

of that person

that you can possibly be,

but it's been precious to me

to look back over it

and be able to say,

okay,

the Lord was faithful

with every strand

of that story.

I'll tell you, Carrie,

at the end,

so I don't know how you write

and I don't know how others write

that may be tuned in

to us,

but I usually, when I'm writing a book,

I'm sending in parts of it,

like I've talked it through

with the publisher

and editor,

and we've got it shaped

where I want to go with it,

and I've gotten them

the first couple of chapters,

but after that point,

I sort of write it as I go,

and so I don't turn it in

as one finished work,

and other people may,

but that's just not the way

I've done it.

And so the first time I read it,

from beginning to end,

I mean, Carrie,

I just sat in wet,

and I did not

week with a single thread

of sorrow.

It was life.

Dear God in heaven,

you have taken care of me.

I just felt the upheaval,

the things he had brought me

through this ride,

this rollercoaster ride,

that we had been on together,

and I had been Jesus in me,

that we had been on together,

and I was overwhelmed

by the grace.

And so it is,

it's redemption.

I think that's when

one redemption is,

he buys the contract.

It's not an abstract theological concept.

It's tangible in real life.

And there's just,

there's accepting it,

just coming to accept it,

and to know that you were,

here's a thing, Carrie,

that we have not talked about,

and it's not necessarily where we,

it might be a rabbit trail to us,

but it wasn't just the abuse,

like many abuse victims,

there are repercussions of those things,

and ways of acting out of those things

before you're able to ever get

on some kind of road to healing.

So the decisions I made out of it,

the disastrous decisions,

the self-destruction,

and the, just the sin,

you know, that I would cycle in and out of.

But that,

that is a tough part of the story.

I look back over my life,

and it's part of the point I got to the end of that memoir,

and it really wept when I read the whole thing,

was because I thought,

how gracious the Lord had been to me,

because if you asked me best,

what would you say had been

the biggest cause of damage to your life?

Who's done you the most wrong of anyone?

Yeah.

And it was me.

You did.

I did.

And so what did that damage look like in your life?

What the pattern of self-destruction,

the quote, sin that you mentioned, Beth,

what was that?

How did that manifest in your book?

Well, I had without being graphic anyway,

zero boundaries,

which is very common.

So with,

I've said so many times to people,

one reason why it is so important

that we have our communities,

certainly our churches,

where they are,

is protected as possible

from predators and abusers,

is not only because of the pain of the abuse,

and what that is called as a person,

but the kinds of decisions,

the repercussions of it,

the kinds of decisions that we will tend to make.

And I don't want to,

with every abuse victim,

it would be different.

So their story is not going to be my story,

but there will be many who would say the same thing as me,

in that we went on to build relationships.

If you knew, I was so young,

I do not remember life prior to being mishandled

and unstable and having an unstable home.

So I don't have, I don't have any memory of that.

I certainly have a memory of when I would tell you I was assaulted

and by that family member.

But I was already showing signs of things going very awry

by early childhood.

So I'm making decisions out of that then.

Every relational decision,

everyone I dated,

all of the things that people that I was drawn to,

the kinds of relationships I was drawn to,

the ways I would set myself up to be hurt,

and the ways I would set myself up to be.

Because I had so little esteem for myself,

I would not hunt out people that would treat me any differently

than I would treat myself.

So it was not well.

It was not well.

So it was a mess.

And then you have,

you have all the fruit,

the fruit, the poor fruit of that,

of just bad decisions and attracting.

I've said so many times,

I'm sure this is not always true.

This is not everybody's story,

but baggage attracts baggage.

I mean, it just does.

And so that's what I interacted in my relationships

and my dating life.

Sometimes it looked bad.

It always looked cute.

Because I was drawn to you.

But unhealthy.

And then that has all sorts of,

you know, it has a contagion effect.

So tough.

And so regret too.

I'm so glad I get to say this to someone in leadership.

You got to deal with that chronic regret.

You got to.

Because it will eat you alive.

And it will come back to bite you over and over again

and send you back into the same cycle.

So there's got to be this distinguishing,

the difference between deep heart repentance

and then this chronic self-destructive regret

where you just can't get over long after the Lord had forgiven me

for my sins, Gary.

And that I had changed.

I mean, that pattern.

I no longer had the pattern.

I had repented.

I still would ask him forgiveness over and over again.

I'd still go back to it and go.

I feel like, according to his word,

because he throws those things in the depths of the sea.

I feel like probably the Lord was going,

what things are you talking about?

You know what I'm saying?

But no, I was going to repeat them over and over again

because I couldn't deal with my regret.

Guilt regret.

And guilt misplays false guilt

because those things,

they had not been swept under a carpet.

They had been pursued deeply

and repented of

and my decisions

changed and come into conformity

with the will of Christ in that area.

So it was, I mean, not only guilt,

but misplaced guilt.

It was not having enough faith in the Lord.

It was like, I can do my part.

I can repent, but you can't do your part

and actually forgive me like you said you would.

So it's not belief.

Beth, home was not a safe place for you.

But you mentioned the church was,

but then the church has not been a safe place

for a lot of women.

Yes.

Hasn't been a safe place for a lot of people.

And I know you've been very vocal on that.

Do you want to talk about that phenomena?

You're probably familiar with some of the new data

from Barna and I hope 2026 will be a year

where we go deeper into the data,

get some fresh insight.

But like women are leaving the church,

very, very quickly.

You probably see that in your own audience,

you know, that they're like, I'm just done with this.

I told my friend Ed Stenser,

I said, I could have told you this before you ever did the data.

And I'm not being a smart,

he's our good friend so we can be smart.

Exactly.

I don't need a study.

I don't need a study, right?

But I was very intrigued to see

that it could be documented.

Yeah.

And it's apparently accelerating,

which is alarming.

It's great that young men are returning to church,

but the women are going in the opposite direction.

And I just would love your thoughts on that.

I mean, we ultimately pay for our sins.

The church has not been a safe place for everybody.

It's been a safe place for a lot of people,

but not a safe place for enough people.

What are your thoughts on that in the state of the church

as it sits today?

Again, I don't want to be...

I don't want to come across as thinking that I know it all

because when I tell you,

I don't...

That's an understatement.

But you saw this for years, right?

Women didn't feel safe.

Okay, so what I can say

is that I have had 40 years

of deep and wide experience with women.

So this is my whole adult life,

interacting with women,

speaking with groups,

all the communication that goes forth,

all the...

This is...

So it is the world that I know the best,

is the church,

the church world of women.

So I do feel like I can speak with some amount,

not an expertise experience.

And so I wanted to distinguish between the extra things.

And so what I think,

I knew it,

what I was fighting so hard for it,

about you are giving them the message

that you do not care about them,

or that to the degree that you do,

they are expendable the moment you care about something more.

The end...

So you being the church is giving women the message

that they are expendable?

Correct.

10 years ago,

I was so alarmed because I thought,

if you keep this up,

and you continue to convey this message,

what you don't realize is that these women

are going to go,

okay, you don't care about me.

You think they're going to have your same priorities

and think, well,

there are certain decisions we have to make,

because I mean, this is our nation,

this is our,

our carry,

the church.

Now, I'm sitting down now,

I'm starting to stand up,

so you can tell,

when I start feeling very sorry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm about to get up.

I'm about to get up.

The church, to me,

has a greater responsibility

to the family of God,

even than the home.

I say that because the church

is representing Christ,

representing Him,

you can't,

you can't do that with homes,

you can't go,

you have to represent Christ.

I mean, we teach that,

we hope that.

The church,

it is,

it is a responsibility of the church,

to be the reflection

of Christ and His ways and His words.

And so, man,

when we start departing from that,

there is,

there is a verse

in Galatians 2,

would you believe,

because I memorized Galatians

when I was writing a body-state curriculum

with my daughter over it,

and over the book of Galatians.

And I was doing some of my memory walk on it

this morning and my walk.

And I said it just this morning,

so I know I feel like the Lord wanted

to refresh in my mind.

This is going to connect.

Gary, it says,

it's Paul talking, of course,

and he's talking about his argument

with Peter,

who is called Cephas in the book of Galatians.

And he talks about how he opposed him to his face

and how he called him out in front of all of them.

And it says something,

I'm going to say it out of the ESB,

because I'm not,

this is the CSB,

but in the ESB,

he says,

but when I saw that their conduct

was not in step

with the truth of the gospel,

I said to Cephas in front of them all,

it says earlier talks about that,

how he would not yield to them,

because he could see,

this was someone earlier in that same chapter too,

because he wanted to preserve

the truths of the gospel.

This is what I,

that is well,

that scripture says it as well as anyone I know,

that what I was seeing,

I was going like,

this is not in step

with the truth.

It's not,

it's not,

it's not.

And you cannot

take the dignity

from women that Christ gave them.

You can't,

you can't,

they're not expendable,

we're not expendable

whether it is power,

whether it is political gain,

we again,

I'm not saying that some of those decisions

are important,

they are,

I'm talking about,

they don't get to be made

at the expense of the gospel

or the ways of Christ.

No, not by the church.

Individuals outside the church,

that's, I mean, on them,

the church,

no, we have,

we have a responsibility

to walk in step

with the gospel of Christ.

And I absolutely think

that the message that came across,

and I think this is the other message,

Carrie,

and that's,

I'm not going to have a,

a place to even serve.

And what I saw,

because there are people

that think,

and I don't know how you feel about this,

and this is where,

there are going to be people

on both sides

that are not going to agree with me

about what I'm about to say,

but I'm talking about my own convictions.

I, I was never,

ever looking,

ever for one minute

to take over a pulpit.

Never.

I would not,

when,

what were you missing for?

I saw just a few days ago,

somebody talked about women,

women pastors of churches,

and they had people's pictures

up there,

my picture was up there.

Oh.

The only thing I've ever been paid

to do by church was teach aerobics,

back in the gym,

in my church gym,

when I was at my 20s,

I've never been a pastor

of a church,

but I'm a big believer

in women getting to exercise their gifts,

and what I was seeing,

I was seeing such a pole

that women were not even getting to teach,

Sunday school places,

and the community groups

had replaced Sunday school,

where were they,

where were they even going to teach?

They didn't want them up front

in any way,

in any shape or form,

they didn't feel like any,

I'm talking about that,

the hyper hyper,

fundamentalists,

it just was like,

and I think that's

what's come across is

there's no place for me.

My safety is not important,

but not only it is my safety,

not important,

my gifts are of no importance to you.

And yeah, I think that's,

I think when you think about

how women have served,

and then you begin to cut them out,

it's going to have a cataclysmic ultimate effect,

the fruit of that will not be good.

What do you think

churches that would pursue

that line of thinking?

What are they getting?

What are they accomplishing?

What are they in their mind?

What is their justification?

Because you've heard everything

from misogyny to,

no, that's just the way the Bible says it, right?

That kind of thing.

You see a variety of things,

but there's a certain,

like what are you really seeing?

What's really going on?

I think that there is,

anyone can do it, anyone can do it,

anyone that's been a scripture,

even a little bit.

Well, I can take the scripture

and make it say many different things.

You can proof text it,

and you can proof text it

to get what you want.

And what I think many,

not all,

at any stretch of the imagination,

I'm saying that

this message that got across

about it didn't,

you know,

we had to protect the pulpit

more than we needed to protect the people,

that mindset,

I think that it's proof texting,

using scripture

to protect power

and to make sure all the power

sits right here.

And the reason why I say that

is because Carrie,

if what, here's what,

I got asked this question in the Q&A

just last week,

what would you tell a woman

who's trying to figure this out,

is trying to figure out

how the New Testament feels

about women?

Well, first thing I would do,

first thing I would do is

I would send them to Luke's gospel

and then go on with his,

his writing in the book of Acts,

take a marker,

and mark every single time

it says,

either women,

woman,

or speaks of a woman,

or a girl,

and it's astounding.

It is astounding the place

that they had the activity

among the gospel accounts,

the God, God,

and it seems to very much

make a point through Christ

of including,

and not only including,

but at times going,

I'm going to turn this upside down

with the women,

or probably the one to announce

that I have risen,

that that tomb is empty.

And then you go through Acts

and see Lydia,

you see the church gathering at,

you see,

in fact, you see the church gathering

at John Mark's mother's home,

all of the things

that all the times

that women are active

in the New Testament church,

that, that,

what kills me,

I said this,

I was able to articulate this years ago,

before any of this ever happened.

It was like,

I'm not trying to take away

or race,

first Timothy 2.

I'm not saying it doesn't say that.

I'm saying that's not all it says.

And when it is preached as if,

that is all it says,

if we have no,

we're not even going to mention Acts 2,

that he pours out his spirit

on his sons and his daughters

and that they will prophesy,

what,

when we just take certain strictures,

and we're going to use that

to be the rule

over the church when we're going like,

okay, but didn't we have to do the work

of studying it all together?

Did we know?

Were we not called to you?

When someone throws at me,

you're disobedient to the scriptures.

I'm like,

okay, which scripture are you talking about?

Because when you speak to me

with total disrespect,

and that statement,

I said, I want to talk about it.

When someone's really,

I mean, I'm talking like,

hateful and brutal

with their speech,

and then they're going to throw at me

or someone else

that their, you know,

that their disobedient scripture

go right to your heart,

so disconnected from the scriptures,

you are a living corpse.

So you asked me a question

that I didn't answer.

Oh, damn.

I should answer it.

We have listeners here

who have differing views,

and I understand,

as you do, Beth,

that people have different views

on egalitarianism

versus complementarianism,

et cetera, et cetera,

and it's a bit of a theme right now

on the podcast.

We're having different interviews about it,

and light of the data

that women are leaving the church.

But what I think is inexcusable,

I totally understand different views

on key issues,

and I know you do,

and I know Katie Kolda

is an other women leaders do,

and I've had most of the generational leaders

of your generation,

other generations, my gender, you know,

all on this podcast,

and they're all very deferential.

They're not there to say,

I've got the one thing

that you need, you know,

that is not the spirit.

But what I don't think has any room

is being demeaning or degrading

to women or to disregard

or to be spiteful.

Now, I'm learning that

in the context of a 35-year marriage,

where I have been dismissive sometimes,

and I have been,

and you know what,

I'm learning as I get,

and you talk about your marriage to Keith, right?

Yes, yes.

What am I learning as a husband?

I am learning to treat my wife

with honor and respect and kindness and grace

in a way that as a man

doesn't come always naturally to me.

I don't want to hear something.

I do.

I do.

I do.

My husband was dealing with,

we were, you know, in marriage,

it's not just one person,

it's both of you.

He had a health crisis

that caused him to have

a couple of years

that are almost

a blur to him,

almost a blur.

And it was,

I've tried to explain it in computer terms

every now and then,

so that somebody could understand,

it is like his,

not just the software,

but the literal hard drive just failed

and then had to be jumpstarted.

So there were years in there,

and it just so happens

that they were the years

I was going through

the aftermath of 2016,

that's what I'm talking about,

and then the stuff

with the SBC.

So he was,

of course, I was talking about it,

the girls and I were talking about it.

I was, I was in the same house with them,

but he was unable to really process it.

What was happening?

Well, so close by.

So much healing takes place.

He begins to really,

then he's himself again.

He starts then looking back

at all of it,

going like,

dad blessed it.

And so I say that because it would be,

he'd call the girls,

our daughters,

and go,

you're not really what someone

so said about your mother.

And they go,

dad, would you look

on the date of that?

But it was,

we was sort of life-a-benefit

because it was like,

you're a little bit like,

you're a little bit like reacting to this.

This is a whole lot better now.

But it was,

it was an interesting thing,

because Keith will tell you,

Kerry,

that watching

the way women were treated,

in particular for him,

because he's not a big social media person,

his wife.

So in our situation,

it was that he was watching

how people treated his wife.

It changed him.

It was like,

I think when you see it,

something that we have,

all of us do,

all of us have these tendencies,

ways that we've been sort of trained up

with culture to act.

There are so much apart of us,

we don't even realize that they're, you know,

against the way of Christ.

And then we see it,

like burgeoning out in a,

you know,

nine-foot galaya.

And suddenly,

we become more set,

hopefully,

hopefully,

if we've got any self-awareness

at all,

we become aware of the seed in us.

And that happened with him,

where he was

alarmed by it

and began to think.

I got to pull all this stuff.

I got to, yes.

Everything by the root.

Yeah.

I'm in a very similar place.

And, you know, cultures moved on.

I've had a long marriage.

You've had a long marriage.

Attitudes are different than they were,

you know,

at the beginning of the marriage.

But I just realized I've,

I've got to change.

So I know we're almost at time.

I got to ask you one more question.

I didn't get to any of my questions, Beth.

Congratulations.

Great job.

Great interview.

Why, why aren't you just so cynical?

Why didn't you just quit?

Oh, my goodness.

Carrie,

I've said this before

and I don't,

it must be hard to believe.

It just never fled out,

never occurred to me.

And there's a reason for that.

It's not just,

there's,

I like to tease about being a little bit,

a little bit blonde at times.

But,

this is not because of that.

It's because,

I'm in,

too long and too deep with Jesus

by the time so much of this happened,

that,

I'm just not going anywhere.

I'm,

I'm not,

please forgive me if this sounds hyper spiritual

because I don't want it to be.

And I,

I wish there was a different way to say it so that

it didn't sound like that.

But,

I mean,

he's my whole life.

I'm,

I'm,

by the time

I was tested

on so much of it

and that I would have been most tempted now.

I've been tempted,

many times to be less public,

to be out of,

out of the public eyes so much.

Yes.

But,

as far as ministry,

I,

I knew,

maybe because I just never had it easy from the beginning,

maybe because I was always running against the wind,

just in my home and stuff,

and had to take responsibility for my own,

spiritual life,

and,

in my own face.

But,

I,

I don't have him confused with people.

I really don't,

and there are a lot of ways that I

misthink and misread.

But,

that,

that wasn't the case here.

I just,

he's,

Jesus is Jesus,

and,

where us,

and even though it was very painful,

they did not call me to ministry.

The Lord did.

And,

he has never done me wrong.

He has never undermined my dignity in any way.

He has never said,

you're out.

He has never told me,

um,

to,

uh, quit,

to,

that I did not have value.

And,

so, you know,

until he says,

you're out.

I'm in,

because I'm,

I'm in with him.

I'm in with him.

And,

it's,

it's my calling.

So,

and,

so that,

okay,

you've got to give me another minute here,

because that doesn't ask the question,

why I'm not cynical.

That,

that is just the question,

why I'm still in.

The cynicism

has been protected

because,

I,

again, this is going to sound.

Right.

I still enjoy him.

You know,

I still have a lot of joy in him.

And,

somehow, you know,

I,

I, I don't rest a more,

one time.

I said, you know, I'm like,

Tigger,

I just,

I think it's what,

what some of my detractors hate about me,

is it,

I just keep coming back.

Because I do get down,

but,

Tigger,

I,

I just bounce,

I just bounce back after,

I'm,

I'm pretty resilient.

Um,

and I do think that

it is because of history.

I think I had to be,

I think I had to learn,