The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast: Lead Like N... - Beth Moore on Knowing When It's Time to Leave and Proof-Texting Scripture to Keep the Pulpit and Power

The Art of Leadership Network.

That mindset, I think, that it's proof texting, using scripture to protect power, and

to make sure all the power sits right here.

Welcome to the Curie New Hoff Leadership Podcast.

Hey, I'm so glad you joined us today for all of you who are new to listening.

We're really glad you're here.

Today, on the show, we have got Beth Moore.

We talk about, how do you know when it's time to leave?

She left the denomination 10 years ago.

We talk about what's really going on around the issue of women in leadership.

While there are different views, some people just like to proof text.

To keep the pulpit and power, she talks about that.

We also talk about why so many people, and especially women, are leaving the church, and

a whole lot more here on the podcast.

Really glad that you've joined us.

We got a lot to talk about.

Beth Moore is an author.

She is a speaker.

She is a vital teacher whose conferences have attracted millions around the world.

She has written numerous books.

We talk in particular about her memoir, which is extremely well written.

It's called All Might Not It Up Life.

And now, without further ado, my conversation with Beth Moore.

Well, Beth, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.

Thanks for coming on.

I am so pleased to be here, Carrie.

Thank you for having me.

So I love what you say.

I think it's on the back cover of your book, All Might Not It Up Life.

But it's like familiar to many, but known by few.

I thought that is a really good description of just pretty much everybody who's listening

to this podcast because their church leaders, they have a platform.

That is a phenomena I find really interesting.

How has that shown up in your life and ministry, you know, familiar to many known by few?

I think that for a lot of us who have been out there a while, so think in terms of

perhaps my peer age or even 10 years younger than me, but out there long enough to learn

some things the hard way.

And some of those things are that you say too much and then wish you could back up and

retract some of it.

And so you learn along the way.

And then the tendency is to swing the other direction, Carrie, and I bet you can relate

to this where, OK, I learned my lesson saying too much now, I'm going to err on the other

side and I'm going to keep my course really, really close and you know, it's just a matter

of growing up in ministry long enough to figure out the balance of the two.

And what I really want to share as something that I'm convinced is a benefit, that's the

question I have to ask myself.

I'd like to just put my life out there.

What do you need that I can give you?

And I say, especially to women, because that's the primary area of my ministry, I say to

them constantly, I can't give you what I don't have, but whatever I have is yours.

And so I like that, that transparency to be able to share life experience and that kind

of thing.

But there is that crossover into then what is not secrecy, but just some amount of privacy.

And I also, I want to say this, and I think this is a really strange dynamic for the time

we're living in for our younger ministry families.

Now you can put your kids all over Instagram, TikTok, whatever it may be.

This is a whole different ballgame now because how in the world are you ever going to take

that down?

But there's the question of, I've also dragged my family into this.

So I have to think lots of times, most of what I have kept private has been because

it was like, is this my story to tell not theirs?

And with my siblings, I feel that way.

It's like, you know, they didn't ask for all of this.

So trying to navigate, particularly when you were talking about the back of that book,

particularly in a memoir, trying my hardest to stay with, okay, this is what my story

is without getting into what might be private to them.

So I think it's a constant navigation, but I think it comes down to what is beneficial

and what still protects the people that don't want to go to a microphone with me.

Yeah, they didn't sign up to have a quote, famous sister, a famous mother, a famous whatever.

Daughter.

Daughter, huh?

I think that's a really good point, you know, when social media started, I was a little

more free in sharing family moments, and I've kind of really dialed back.

I'm like, there's stuff that's for me, not because it's inappropriate or anything like

that, but just because I think the richness of life is not everything has to be shared

online.

No, I wonder, I don't know what age you are, Carrie, I know you're good bit younger than

I am.

Just turn 60.

Okay, all right.

So I am almost, almost a decade older, but I wonder if you have curved some of that for

the same reason I have, which is, or that you're more sensitive to it, let me put it that

way, that you're watching what you think with some of our younger ministry friends might

not be the best idea.

I will think to myself over and over.

I don't know if you're going to end up glad that you put all of that out there and made

your life basically a reality show because I'm all for sharing family moments and things

like that that are fun, but if my whole life is out there, now I have opened up my home

to a whole different kind of, what can I say, just not always criticism, but that there

is always going to be opinions about it.

Now I have invited them into a private place.

So that is a really big part of it is that I've sort of find myself now pulling back

because the more I see society going in, the more I'm beginning to pull back.

Yeah, it's funny.

I see the same thing and I was thinking about that ironically, not prepping for this interview,

but just over the weekend, some people I follow, you know, and they have three or four kids

and they're all very young, maybe under the age of five or whatever, and it almost is

like a reality TV show that's showing up on Instagram or TikTok and I just wonder what

that's doing.

I mean, you now have, you know, I think there've been lawsuits and cease and desists and,

you know, kids who have grown up because social media is 20 years old going, why did you

do this to me?

Yes.

But it's a really good question.

Everybody loves to look at everyone else's life and make comments.

I can remember, it only takes one big regret to just harken to you constantly with putting

out something that is deeply personal to the family, but I, we had a broken engagement

period.

This was many, many years ago in our family.

Yeah.

And we had made it all like, oh, they're engaged and all of this kind of thing.

Kind of chronicle the whole thing on social.

It was blogging days.

And so I don't know how to explain this exactly because this might have been something

that was more the inclination of women and women bloggers and women audiences.

There was quite a lot of bonding in those days.

Now, there's some of that on Instagram and some of that is the reason why I've even stayed

on, on access because I have friends there that I don't, I don't want to leave and they're

the only place I have them.

But in those days, Carrie, I mean, we just put out so many personal things and wrote

long articles about it, all the pictures, chronically, the whole thing.

And then that engagement was rightly not because of any role.

There was no sign on either part.

There was no nothing terrible to say.

It just wasn't the right thing for them to follow through it.

They just broke the engagement.

And then we had to go back and track through every single bit of that and navigate that.

And the pain it added to that daughter, I never want to be in this situation again.

Never.

Wow.

It's a really good point.

And you know, I think to be fair because I've, I've think of it, you know, social media

is 20 years old.

I think if that was, let's say, even 10 years ago, 15 years ago, whatever it was, Beth,

we didn't, we were figuring out social media as it went along.

And we didn't understand it was really only I'm trying to do a timeline.

I'm working on a new book on AI and blah, blah, blah.

But I'm trying to figure out like, I think the unintended consequences sort of entered

the field, maybe in the mid 2010s.

That's the first time they were kind of like, oh, this isn't all good.

And if you're young listening to this looking back on it, it was like, duh, but we didn't

know at the time we were figuring it out.

100%.

I want to throw this in because they're, I would even put it exactly where you're putting

it on the calendar.

Because I haven't researched it just from my particular observation.

And I'm a big people person.

So I happen to like the whole social aspect.

I'm intrigued by social media, all of these things and watching cultural trends.

This is all my alley.

So I really like that.

But there is a big part of me that thinks in some ways that we have to go back and glance

at, say, 10 years ago, and to some extent, forgive one another for being caught in a

maelstrom of social media, up-heaval.

I mean, I'm talking about when this was like the trash bin was on fire.

I mean, it was like, and all of us saying everything that came to our minds.

And I still speak my mind, Carrie, but I'm careful about it.

You know, I will give it thought first when in those days, I was just willing to fight.

You know what I'm saying?

I do.

And you start asking, you look back and go, what and who did it change exactly?

And you know what I'm saying, I'm willing to fight for change.

But are we going to fight for no change at all?

And in fact, are we going to fight for only for what we were fighting for to be doubled

down on in the opposite direction?

And it's not, Carrie, it's not that I would go back and change the things I said or did

online.

It's that I would not be as inclined to do them today.

Like I have it, I can't think of many things I've changed my mind about, except the effectiveness,

how effective it is to take on a big fight in public.

That is something that I would say is a colossal waste of time.

Yes.

The answer is, it is not effective devil big public fight.

But my daughter will say, we still call it Twitter, so forgive me, because I'll, I'm

she call it X.

Yeah.

But I have a good friend that calls it Zitter, and you know, I get that because he just

puts you together.

But my youngest daughter puts it this way, and I think about it so often, yesterday morning

Carrie, I deleted something that I was just about to post.

I read it and I thought, do I want to take this song today?

And then my answer to myself was, no, but she says it this way.

She says, I don't hate myself enough to get on Twitter, just I think there's a certain

part where that is legit to just say, so you know, in a way, I do think that there should

be some grace over a time period that we were caught so off guard.

We did not understand bots.

I would have thought every single thing that was being said to me was being said personally

in those days, Carrie, because what I wouldn't have known any different, you know, he was

weak.

I think I still think it's all people not bots, but yes, well, I know that's not true,

but you know, you find out ways to track it to see.

And if you begin to look, there are certain giveaways for an account that is not that's

fake.

Not necessarily a bot, but it's fake.

It's been someone arguing with you that doesn't even know you, that's just trying to keep

you on that particular platform, but it's just also intriguing.

And I think back and I sort of want to be forgiven for not being able to keep a good

control on my tongue.

And I also have forgiven some people that haven't asked for it, but I thought, you know what?

I think your mouth got away from you.

And so is mine.

This episode is brought to you by Glue Feed.

Well, we all know how fast things move in ministry and how hard it can be to keep up.

And that's exactly what the Glue Feed is built for.

This is a totally free, regular text that delivers the latest research, trending topics,

and updates from across the church.

For example, did you see the surprising reversal in where Americans are trending in their

commitment to Jesus, or did you catch the fresh insights on where pastors say they

do not have enough support?

Well, you would have if you got the text from the Glue Feed.

This is the best way to stay informed about what matters, when it matters, without having

to sift through the noise.

So get all the latest research, updates on AI, and a whole lot more.

All you have to do is go to the Glue Feed.

You can text Carrie, C-A-R-E-Y, to 46816 to join for free.

That's Carrie, C-A-R-E-Y, to 46816, and you can sign up for free today.

This episode is brought to you by Blade.

So you want to lead your church well, and you've got the gifts, the tools, and the passion

for ministry.

So the question is, why do you feel stuck?

And often it's because you lack bandwidth.

When finances are scattered or in min work piles up, your attention gets pulled away from

your calling, and it gets pushed toward putting up fires.

And over time, you begin to lack the presence that your ministry actually needs, and that's

where our friends at Blade can help.

They provide vetted US-based assistance and financial experts who support church leaders

just like you.

And you become freed up to focus on the mission.

Also, Blade is giving away downloads of their resource, the future of financial leadership

absolutely free.

It discusses how to manage your church's finances with efficiency and care, how their

financial experts provide a human touch, and why it actually matters.

So to get that, text the word carry, C-A-R-E-Y, to 551-23, for your free download.

That's carry to 551-23.

Get back to doing what you do best with Blade.

So I remember some of those Twitter fights from, you know, eight, ten years ago, that

kind of thing.

And, you know, obviously, when you exited the SBC, that was quite controversial.

And you really engaged.

You didn't just put yourself out there.

I think we covered that period well, but I'm going to ask you a different question now.

Yes.

You know, because I think a lot of leaders are asking this question, what is worth fighting

for?

Because if it was a dumpster on fire ten years ago, it's a toxic sinkhole today for the

most part on social media.

Is there anything in your view worth arguing about on the internet?

Oh, absolutely.

I want to take that in a little more general.

Sure.

Yeah.

Fear, if you'll let me carry.

One of the things I try to do, I think this through in my marriage, I think this

through in extended family crises or personal dynamics, whatever it is.

And I certainly think this with social media, to be able to think through, if not actually

pray through, which is really what it means, am I fighting against or fighting for?

And I do think I'm thinking of Paul talking about the Corinthians, for example.

And when he said, I'm jealous for you, that you have a sincere, wholehearted love for

Christ.

Just for them, not of them.

I think when we are fighting for something and not just against something, and I'm one

of the things that I think characterizes our current climate socially, is that we have

become addicted to fighting against.

I'm not sure, have of us know what we're even fighting for.

We just know what we don't like.

We're fighting against it.

We're fighting against the other side, because there's something emotionally to be gained

by that.

I think anger is a huge, huge energy drink.

I really do.

It's that internal IV and it's giving all sorts of fuel to just energy, I think we're exhausted.

I think we like to be energized and so we're going to get mad.

So we're mad at people instead of wishing longing for something for them.

So let's go back to the SBC a little bit, because I wouldn't even need to tell you how

much I loved my denomination and I'm trying to think what would even be comparable to it

as far as something that I suffered in the last years, it would feel like that loss.

And I would tell you right before the memoir came out, my brother, that I talk about

very fondly, my dear big brother, who was just my, well, my best friend, my best friend.

He died suddenly at a heart attack and I mean, just like dropped dead, no warning, nothing

just that's when you get a phone call and it's already over before you have the chance

to even respond or run to a hospital or get to anything and that the loss of my lifelong

denomination was not set up like that, but it was that radical loss, absolutely.

But just the loss of some of what it would feel like to lose a friend much dearer than that.

And perhaps the way to put it, if anyone who's familiar with my story, certainly the memoir

knows that my home was not my safe place, Gary, growing up, my church was.

So that, I mean, I just, a lot of people had been hurt by the church.

I didn't buy God's grace.

And maybe because I was so hurt in my own home, I don't know, a lot of people are hurt

in those places.

These things, we can't sort all of this out, but I was not hurt by the church.

It was a safe place.

It always was.

I can't think there were churches that are more dear to me in my, in my history than

others, but all were a blessing.

I didn't even have all that many.

It probably was five in my lifetime.

And those were because primarily of removes, but when it, so when it, when that brokenness

came, it was a sense of losing family, losing home, you know, losing home, losing home.

And a home, but home that that, that was my place of belonging.

So what finally brought that decision to pass was that I came to a place where I realized

I had fought so hard for something going back to what the point that I was making a

few minutes ago, I was fighting so hard for it, for my denomination, for us not to

pull so far into what I'll call and somebody else won't.

Why not?

I would just call alter a fundamentalism.

I was just like, oh, please, please, please, let's stay a bigger tent than that.

Let's, this is unrecognizable to me, just fighting for, fighting for women to just, you

know, have, have a place to serve, not asking for a certain platform, I'm asking, do

they get to use their guess, these were things worth fighting for and then certainly for

the protection of, of people from abuse, these were all fighting for.

But when you realize that two things that, that it's only causing the pull in the opposite

direction and that you've become, I've become a, what can I, a cautionary tale where I'm

new that I was part of what scared other women that were leaders that say, for instance,

were in their 30s, 40s and 50s were very much seeing what was happening and that some

of their responses would be, I don't want that to happen to me.

So I'm going to now, I'm going to retreat, I'm going to pull back, I'm going to, I'm

not even going to try these, these are things that, that came up in search of me.

And the other one was that I realized that I was causing more trouble in my denomination.

I was no longer a blessing and I can't, I truly, to this day, this was the one from my

throat, I'll never get to where this is an easy thing for me to get out of my mouth.

I had served it since I was 12, I have never, I had never known any other place, any

other denomination and I began literally serving at the same, at the time that I would

have graduated out of VBS, I guess, a Bible school.

So 12, that I started helping with VBS and then started helping with Sunday school and

then started helping with young adolescent girls and all of youth and then on from there.

And you know, I, I loved them and had served so hard and served those women and, and having

to come to groups with the fact that you, you are not, you're not a blessing to them anymore.

And that was, that's time to go, when you have now caused what, what you feel like are

so many problems that people just want to see you go.

And I'm not being pitiful about that and not being a, there's no, no, no, no, no, martyr

syndrome in that, nothing, I'm not, I don't want to talk like a victim in any stretch is

just when you realize that you are not a positive that you have become a negative.

And that is when you think, okay, I've overstepped my welcome, I'm no longer, I'm no longer

welcome here.

That's the best way I know to put it and I'm so happy to tell you, Carrie, you know, it's

been a while since I've talked about it.

So I can, I can really feel a lot of my throat.

I'm so happy to tell you that some healing has come to pass.

Yeah, how so?

Yes.

And not from the top, I would not say from, not officially and formally, nor even majority,

but as far as a number of pastors I've heard from along the way, invitations that I've

gotten to come and speak as Southern Baptist churches, I think just because time goes by,

I honestly think if I could be so bold that somehow they thought got across and then

multiplied this, this was a hard, hard thing to watch because you're watching yourself

characterizes someone leaving the sound doctrines of the faith.

When you know, you know, that's not true, but there's nothing you could do about it.

And sometime goes by and I think that some people were fair enough to just go, well,

do you know?

She didn't, she didn't actually leave the Facebook, she disappeared, that's a gift of time,

isn't it?

Yeah, that you're not quite the heretic that maybe not quite, just sort of, you know,

the old way where no, the ones that are most conservative, they were all the ones that

threw up in the doors to me in the first ways.

So it would have been more than ones that I were more prolifically served before.

So those I have sort of come back around to some extent and decided, well, they may have

moved on to other Bible studies, but they may have decided at that point, maybe she's

not the heretic we thought she was.

It is, it is funny.

I left the denomination almost 20 years ago, and I got a call, yeah, Presbyterian, and

I love Presbyterianism, there's so much of it.

To me, Tim Keller was the embodiment of what Presbyterianism could be and should be, really

admire him.

And it was one of those things, it was my call to go, I just saw a couple of things I

don't want to get into right now that I wasn't comfortable sitting with, just a change,

a drift.

And so I left, and I mean, it was a bit of a story in our country, but anyway, at long

story short, I got a call two years ago, and it was from somebody high up in the denomination

and he just said, hey, you were saying things 20 years ago, I don't think we were ready

to hear.

Would you come back and share those ideas with us?

And I'm like, you bet I will, I'll be there in a heartbeat.

And it was just so healing to come back and to share it.

It's so healing, Kerry, I did not know that, do not think we wouldn't have gotten in

a conversation a long time ago about this, I don't know.

I have this desire to sit around a round table someday, which is just, you know, just

a pipe dream, but with people that have sort of had similar journeys, that have some

miles on their a docket with a ministry that have been full on in it.

I'm not talking about that just a, you know, maybe a tinder church, you know, I'm talking

about that, full on in ministry.

And then decades later, look back over some of it and talk about it.

I just think that would be the most fascinating conversation.

But Kerry, if I find this intriguing because would you say that this is true, that by the

time it does start coming back around, God has accomplished what was purposeful in you.

He let it take that much time.

I say that because God has done so much in these 10 years.

And I look back and I think, no, would I have learned those things and experienced those

things and let him do the deep work apart from that.

Since we're talking to leaders, let me say this, we will get tested.

We will.

It's not that we might, if you live long enough and you serve long enough and you're in

it, you've given your heart to it.

You will not escape a couple of tests that God is determined for us to pass.

And one of them is, will we choose to keep the approval of our mentors and those to whom

we owe things like, oh respect, like they did invest so much in us, they did have a lot

of favor on us, all these things that will we choose them when we come to some decisions

and we come to, this is what I believe the will of God to be.

And this is where these that I really want to please, this is where they are.

Are we going to go with God or are we going to say, listen, God's more merciful than people.

I'm going with them and he's going to forgive me, you know, and this is a temptation.

It sounds, it sounds comical, but boy, does this happen.

We're going to get that, that test we are, we're going to be tested on who's approval

when it comes down to it.

They're people who, we don't care if they are free or not.

I've done that.

The people, your community, your circle, the people that have raised you up in ministry

or have beat your compadres or your partners, when their will departs the will of God

for you, what you are going to do.

The other one is, we will be tested on numbers.

We will, we will, and sometimes, sometimes this will be numbers of followers, the size

church, the size ministry, but numbers may also be money, finances, paycheck, whatever

it is, will we accept that once we make a particular stand or make a particular decision

that we believe is in the will of God, will we be willing for it to have really powerful

effects on all of those things?

Are we?

Negative consequences.

Are we willing to let God use it as the pruning of our lives?

I mean, when I say the size of our ministry, I'm trying to say how many years this would,

and I tell you that we went from enormous groups to, I mean, downsizing all those overnight

and to be at peace with that and be able to say, come what may, this is, this is how it's

going to have to be because I've got to go with what I believe, the one of the law

ten.

Because your convictions cost you, audience, they cost you dollars, they cost you a lot.

It's not a joke.

I mean, some of this stuff, I just say, well, surely that he'll just bless you, yes,

he will, yes, he will, and yes, he has, I had a, and have enjoyed a fellowship with

the Lord through all of that, that I would trade anything for, but will he allow these

kinds of things to have an enormous impact so that we can, according to 1 Peter 1, prove

genuine.

And that's going to be scary, he's going to be after that, he's going to escape that.

He will, he will test us to prove that we really do have it in us, we really are people

of faith, and we will choose him when it comes down to it, we're going to choose him over

and over.

And you know, it's going to be painful, but it's going to be peace.

Hey, this episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Academy.

So you know, in today's conversation, we're talking about something that's both heart

breaking and urgent, the growing number of women who are leaving the church and the

deeper reasons behind it.

So I want to share a couple of resources with you that can really help you and your team

respond with wisdom, clarity, and trust.

So first of all, I explore this trend in depth in my 2026 church trends report.

One of the most disruptive shifts happening right now is that while young men are showing

up in record numbers, which is awesome, women are quietly walking away.

And the reasons go far beyond headlines.

And if you haven't downloaded the report yet, you'll want to get the latest data, my insights

and discussion questions that you can actually work through with your staff or leadership team

in your context.

And then secondly, if you want to go deeper and actually build a healthier culture in your

church, one marked by trust, integrity, and strong leadership, I want to invite you

to join the Art of Leadership Academy.

So inside that, you're going to find practical courses, coaching, and a community of church

leaders who are committed to leading well in a complicated moment.

You don't have to navigate the challenges your church is facing all by yourself.

You can start with an all-access membership to get the clarity and the guidance you

need to lead a thriving ministry.

So two resources to help grow your leadership.

Number one, the church trends report and secondly, an all-access membership in the Art

of Leadership Academy.

Get both by visiting the link in the description of this episode wherever you're listening,

YouTube, Spotify, Apple.

Just scroll down, click the link soon.

You'll be on your way or simply visit the artofleadershipacademy.com.

What is your advice when people come up to you and say, I'm thinking of leaving my

denomination, I'm thinking of leaving my church, that kind of thing?

But let's keep it at the macro level at the highest level.

I get that question from time to time probably because I've done it.

What's your advice to them?

Well, one thing I'm going to ask immediately if I'm in the position where I came, but

I'm going to assume that someone's given me that open door of things asked me, I'm

going to ask why.

What is it that you're interested in?

There's some valid reasons in your experience.

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

But also all the way down to, this is why we, Terry, we as the people of God have to

learn to walk with God.

We've got to.

Say this because even if we are unsettled, sometimes we don't know why God has told us

to move.

We don't know.

We're just like, I don't know if I've been moving it for an entire denomination, but

I'm talking about anything.

We can just be like, I'm unsettled.

I don't know what is here.

I've always been so plugged into this church or this community and I just feel like God

has put the word go on me.

That word go.

It is characteristic of both eras of time, whereas Abraham and Genesis 12 and with Matthew

in the close with the great commission go, go.

So go means by, I mean, it just does.

There's no going without leaving.

And so he can be a legitimate reason to leave just because you cannot get settled

that the Lord has told you to stay, that for some reason, you are supposed to leave

that group.

And it's not because of any wrongdoing.

So there's that.

I want to go in and say that.

There are times that we go because God just goes, I have another thing I need you to

do.

Sometimes he'll call us to leave when we've never loved that environment more.

But he's he's looking for us to obey him and sometimes it's very costly.

But other times, here's here's what I didn't say it well earlier in our conversation.

So I'm going to say it better now, perhaps, when I would tell you to go is when you flat

out can no longer stay, I am a stayer.

I don't think that's a real word.

But it's the only word I have known to use in conversations like this along the way.

You can look at my marriage of almost 47 years.

And through lots of ups and downs and my friendships, I have lots and lots of long friendships

and long relationships.

Even with publishers, I don't jump around much.

I like the relational aspect of it.

So my inclination is going to be to stay.

What I have to believe in what I would say to others that are in ministry or in some

kind of leadership, what you're praying for is a word.

You make your ways, make me where I'm sensitive to the leadership of your spirit and that

when you've got, when you want me to leave, that it will be impossible to stay.

And one of the things that you're just like about to jump out of your skin, it may not

even be anything negative.

But what I will say, Kerry, if we would leave when the Lord says, when He first

begins, if we'll look back, all of us who've been around as long as you and I have, and

I'm older, but I'm just saying, we have put in miles with the Lord.

If we'll look back on our life experience in ministry, we will see numerous times when

the Holy Spirit was already saying, um, um, detaching you from this group or this community

or this circle of people or this workplace or this part, whatever it may be, I'm detaching

I have someplace else I want you to go.

We're already knowing we need to go, we need to go, we need to go, we don't want to,

we have relationships there.

So what will happen is because we don't want to be sad, we wait until there's a crisis

because we're, we can leave better mad than sad, we, it happens over and over.

So a conflict is forced.

I'm happy to tell you that did, that's not, wasn't of the case with the SPC.

I did not, I wasn't feeling that desire to, um, you know, to, to leave long before, so

that wasn't the case there, but I can think of, I can think of half a dozen that if I'm

looking over 40 solid years, really a little more than that, over 40 years of ministry,

I can think of several times, I overstayed the will of God and what would have just

been sad had to turn into something where I got to whatever degree, maybe they have never

even knew, but I had to get my head, a conflict happened.

Interesting.

I want to go back to something you said, you know, your childhood and you wrote about

it in your book, um, difficult at times, do you want to talk about what happened

and how that shows up later in life for you?

I was your born Jesus.

I think difficult at times is the, is such a gracious way for you to put that here, yes.

Um, I was raised, I thank God to be able to say in a church going home and I, what, the

debt that I owe my parents for that is inestimable.

So let me say that because again, that was, that was my place of safety.

It was a place where I felt accepted someplace where I learned about Jesus in Sunday school.

And you also have to understand, would you, okay, so you put me at just, just shy of 70.

Uh, I'm in a different time, time, uh, generation than some of our, our listeners.

So in, in my parents' day, a lot of my peers would tell you that their parents didn't talk

a lot about God at home, that it was mostly we're going to take you to church.

That's where that happens.

It's not that there isn't a blessing said over the meal, but as far as my parents raising

us up in the things of the Lord, uh, no, and there wasn't any discussion really about

Bible reading or anything like that.

I mean, we, we knew where our Bibles were on Sundays before we got the card to go to

church and that kind of thing, but it just, it was a bit of a different day.

And I have some friends that are the, um, Ray Orland's parents very much raised him

and his, his, uh, family in, in the Lord.

That was not our case, but we did go to church.

And so I'm very thankful for that.

But our home, under the roof of our own home, our lives were so, so unstable.

My father was an unfaithful man to the Lord.

And I say that not as a judgment of his heart or motive, but because of events that

happen, things from outward actions that certainly conveyed that there was a darkness

in that life.

So he was not faithful to my mother, um, nor was he, I'm going to keep this singular

to myself because he, here is where I don't want to tell the stories of my siblings,

but they would have their stories to tell.

I will simply say that what I told for a really long time, early on, early on.

So Barry, now this is more than you asked, but, um,

I was counseled as a very young speaker that I've, I finally told an older woman

who did, he was a speaker that had mentored me some.

I finally told her that I had been abused as a kid.

And she said, and I understand why she said it.

She said, I would counsel you not to tell that publicly.

She said, I don't think people can handle that.

And I, you know what?

I, I should, you would think that I would have been young enough to,

because I was young to take her counsel and go with it, but I, I couldn't do it.

I couldn't, you see it in the very first thing I ever wrote.

I made reference to it.

Being cause, Keri, I felt like I couldn't even be understood.

I don't know another way to put it.

It's not that I want people to think, oh, best.

And in, in the first descriptions, they'd have a me.

Oh, yes, he was victimized as a child.

No, I wouldn't even want that in the first paragraph, but it's part of my

jury with Jesus.

If you asked me, okay, perfect example.

People, young women will say to me all the time, I want what you have.

I can't, I cannot tell you.

And I should have a name because I knew people that I thought I want what you have.

I want what you have.

And it really has something beautiful at the rate of it that you have to go down

into and realize it's not the person, but it's that during for Jesus.

But one thing that I always say back to him is, well, if you want what I have,

you should have one hell I got it.

No, and that's a thing, right?

You sign up for someone's whole life, everything that shaped them.

And they don't want my whole life.

So life goes on.

And so it becomes very much a part of my, that's open then to the Bible studies.

Many of them all, I would make some kind of reference to it.

Any, any woman that had been with me for years in Bible study would have known

that I had a background of abuse.

But I just never told to, but when I went to write them then more.

So I was almost, you know, I was creeping in on 65.

And I had wanted for a couple of years, I was beginning to be inclined to,

to wish I could tell it.

Then it was my own, there was my own father and it was within my own home.

And, and, and nuclear family, because,

period, that's a big one, that's a big one.

And I was just, I come to a place where I wished

those people who have my kind of background,

they did hope so badly.

When it is that personal, when your protector has become your perpetrator,

you're now in a, you're in, in a zone,

you need Jesus and you need good, good support and help so desperately and good,

professional help and good, this is now, this will mess you up.

And so I got so stirred in my heart to share it.

So I did in the memoir, I shared it.

And so I can't, I don't know who I,

who I would have been, we're saying what impact has that had on your ministry?

Well, I can't think who I would have been.

It, it, I don't want anyone to misunderstand that I'm saying it was worth it to me.

I'm not saying God left it happened so I would be

more deeply inclined in misery.

I'm not saying any of that.

I'm saying God is faithful not to waste anything.

And what he did, he gave me such a heart for women.

Such a heart to encourage them in the dignity that they have in Christ and who they are in Christ.

And he gave me, it gave me so much compassion and,

and empathy and I'm not scared to use that word.

I can look at a group of women that maybe we,

maybe the group has been pulled together because it's women who are hurting and I can go into that zone.

I can touch that place in my heart and I can,

I can feel so much of what you're feeling.

And so I just, it was part of what shaped me.

And I, I just, I would not be the same person.

It shaped how I applied the word.

OK, OK, Carrie, I, I had to apply the scriptures.

I didn't get the luxury of just studying to study.

I wasn't going to make it.

And I mean this all through.

So I don't mean that this was true when I was 16, 18, 21.

I'm saying full, grown adult, 30s, 40s and so forth.

I, I just don't have that option.

I'm, I had too many things that against me.

I have, it's too challenging.

It's too, it caused consequences that I still deal with today.

Now, the healing, the emotional healing of it, I'm so thankful to say is,

um, is, is advanced so that, that I praise God for.

But, um, oh, it's, it's a, a huge thing and important to me,

it's important to me that whatever is the Lord allowed in my path to,

to, to me, redemption is that he turns around, this is going to sound corny and

makes the devil, sorry, he messed with me.

You know, almost 800 interviews in and I'm really sorry for what happened to you,

Beth as a, as a child, I really am.

But what I hear over and over again from the people that I interview is whatever

their story is, whether it's abuse or it could be, you know, being raised in poverty

or with single parents or as an orphan after their parents were killed or something

like that because you hear variations of so many stories.

And a lot of these leaders, they become, I wouldn't say grateful for,

but reconciled to the fact that, yeah, that is the childhood that's part of my DNA

in the same way that you could have been raised in a wealthy home or non abusive home

or that kind of thing.

And it propelled them on correct to, to create a drive in them or a something

in them that propelled them to where they are today.

It's true.

Do you see that pattern?

You know, Beth, 100%.

That's, that's why you look back and think, I'm so glad I can't do it all over

and get to choose what's in it and what's not in my story because this,

this is what God put together that all blended.

You know, we're a blend of art, our DNA are all the things that report into us

through whatever education, lack of formal education, whatever it may be.

All of these things, our skills, our spiritual gifting, whatever it is,

all of this, all of this comes together, all of these forces come together

and make this person and to just be able to trust him with the healthiest version.

Let me say that, the healthiest version of that person that you can possibly be.

But it's been precious to me to look back over it and be able to say,

Okay, the Lord was faithful with every strand of that story.

I'll tell you, Carrie, at the end, so I don't know how you write

and I don't know how others write that may be tuned in to us.

But I usually, when I'm writing a book, I'm sending in parts of it,

like I've talked it through with the publisher and editor and we've got it shaped

where I want to go with it and I've gotten in the first couple of chapters.

But after that point, I sort of write it as I go.

And so I don't turn it in as one finished work and other people may,

but that's just not the way I've done it.

And so the first time I read it from beginning to end, I mean, Carrie,

I mean, I just sat and wept and I did not weep with a single thread of sorrow.

It was life, dear God in heaven, you have taken care of me.

I just stopped the upheaval, the things he had brought me through this ride,

this rollercoaster ride that we had been on together and I had been Jesus in me,

that we had been on together.

I was overwhelmed by the grace and so it is its redemption.

I think that's when redemption is he buys it back.

It's not an abstract theological concept.

It's tangible in real life.

And there's just, there's accepting it, just coming to accept it and to know that

you were, here's a thing, Carrie, that we have not talked about.

And it's not necessarily where we, it might be a rabbit trail to us,

but it wasn't just the abuse, like many abuse victims,

there are repercussions of those things and ways of acting out of those things

before you're able to ever get on some kind of road to healing.

So the decisions I made out of it, the disastrous decisions,

the self-destruction and the, just the sin that I would cycle in and out of.

That, that is a tough part of the story.

I look back over my life in this part of the time I got to the end of that memory

and it really wept when I read the whole thing.

It was because I thought, how gracious some word had been to me,

because if you asked me best, what, what, what would you say had been the biggest cause of damage

to your life?

Who's done you the most wrong of anyone?

Yeah.

I would say me.

You, yeah.

I, and so what, what did that damage look like in your life?

What, the pattern of self-destruction, the quote, sin that you mentioned, Beth,

what, what was that, how did that manifest in your life?

Well, I had without being graphic anyway, zero boundaries, which is very common.

So with, I mean, I've said so many times to people, one reason why it is so important

that we have our communities, certainly our churches, where they are, is protected as,

as is possible from predators and abusers is, is not only because of the pain of the abuse

and what that is cause of person, but the kinds of decisions, the repercussions of it,

the kinds of decisions that we will tend to make.

And I don't want to, with every abuse victim, it would be different.

So their story is not going to be my story, but there will be many who would say the

same thing as me in that we went on to build relationships.

If you knew, I was so young, I do not remember life prior to being mishandled and unstable

and having an unstable home, so I don't have, I don't have any memory of that.

I certainly have a memory of when I would tell you I was assaulted and by that family

member, but I was already showing signs of things going very awry by early childhood.

So I'm making decisions out of that then, every relational decision, every, every one I

dated, all of the things that people that I was drawn to, the kinds of relationships

I was drawn to, the ways I would set myself up to be hurt, and the ways I would set myself

up to be, because I had so little esteem for myself, I would not hunt out people that

would treat me any differently than I would treat myself.

So it was not well, it was not well.

So it was a mess and then you have, you have all the fruit, the, the poor fruit of that

of just bad decisions and, and attracting, you know, I've said so many times, I'm sure

this is not always true, this is not everybody's story, but baggage attracts baggage.

I mean, it just does and so that's what I interacted in my relationships and my dating

life, I mean, sometimes it looked bad, I always looked cute, but I always looked cute

because I was drawn to cute, but unhealthy.

And then that has all sorts of, you know, it has a contagion effect, so tough.

And so regret too, not, I'm so glad I get to say this to some, someone in leadership.

You've got to deal with that chronic regret, you've got to, because it will eat you alive

and it will come back to bite you over and over again and send you back into the same

cycle.

So there's got to be this distinguishing the difference between deep heart repentance

and then this chronic self-destructive regret where you just can't get over a long

after the Lord had forgiven me for my sins, Gary, and that I had changed.

I mean, that pattern, I no longer had the pattern, I had repented, I still would ask

him forgiveness over and over again, I'd still go back to it and go, I'm so sorry, I'm so

sorry.

I feel like, according to his word, because he throws those things in the depths of

the sea, I feel like probably the Lord was going, what things are you talking about?

You know, I'm saying, but no, I was going to repeat him to him over and over again, because

I couldn't deal with my regret, and guilt misplaced false guilt, because those things,

they had not been swept under a carpet, they had been pursued deeply and repented of

and my decisions changed and come into conformity with the will of Christ in that area.

So it was, I mean, not only guilt, but misplaced guilt.

It was not having enough faith in the Lord, it was like, I can do my part, I can repent,

but you can't do your part and actually forgive me, like you said you would.

So it's not belief.

Home was not a safe place for you, but you mentioned the church was, but then the church

has not been a safe place for a lot of women, hasn't been a safe place for a lot of people.

And I know you've been very vocal on that. Do you want to talk about

that phenomena? You're probably familiar with some of the new data from Barna, and I hope

2026 will be a year where we go deeper into the data, get some fresh insight, but like women

are leaving the church very, very quickly. You probably see that in your own audience,

you know, that they're like, I'm just done with this.

I told my friend Ed Stenser, I said, I could have told you this before you ever did the data,

and I'm not being a smart, he's our good friend, so we can be smart.

Exactly. I don't need a study. I don't need a study, right?

But I was very intrigued to see that it could be documented.

Yeah, and it's apparently accelerating, which is, you know, alarming.

It's great that young men are returning to church, but the women are going in the opposite

direction. And I just would love your thoughts on that. I mean, we ultimately pay for our sins,

the church has not been a safe place for everybody. It's been a safe place for a lot of people,

not a safe place for enough people. What are your thoughts on that in the state of the church

as it sits today? Again, I don't want to be, I don't want to come across as thinking that I

know it all, because when I tell you, I don't, that's an understatement.

But you saw this for years, right? Women didn't feel safe.

Okay, so what is, what I can say is that it, I have had 40 years of deep and wide

experience with women. So this is my whole adult life interacting with women,

speaking with groups, all the communication that goes forth, all that, this is, so it is the world

that I know the best, the church, the church world of women. So I do feel like I can speak with

some amount, not an expertise experience. And so I wanted to distinguish between the extra things.

And so what I think, I knew it, what I was fighting so hard for, I thought you are giving them

the message that you do not care about them, or that to the degree that you do, they are

expendable the moment you care about something more. So you being the church is giving women

the message that they are expendable. And I mean, this 10 years ago was so along, because I thought,

if you keep this up and you continue to convey this message, what you don't realize is that

these women are going to go, okay, you don't care about me. You think they're going to have

your same priorities and think, well, there are certain decisions we have to make, because I mean,

this is our nation, this is our, our carry, the church. Now I'm sitting down now, I'm starting

to stand up so you can tell when I start feeling very sorry. I'm about to get a, the church to me

has a greater responsibility to the family of God even than the home. I say that because the

church is representing Christ, representing Him. You can't, you can't do that with homes, you can't

go, you have to represent Christ. I mean, we teach that, we hope that the church, it is, it is

a responsibility of the church to be the reflection of Christ and His ways and His words. And so,

man, when we start deporting from that, there is a verse in Galatians 2, would you believe,

because I, I memorized Galatians when I was writing a Bible study curriculum with my daughter over it

in, in the late, over the book of Galatians. And, and I was doing some of my memory walk on it

this morning and my walk. And I said it just this morning, so I know I feel like the Lord wanted

to refresh in my mind. This is going to, carry, it says, it's, it's Paul talking, of course,

and he's talking about his argument with Peter, who is called Cephas in the book of Galatians.

And he talks about how he opposed him to his face and how he called him out in front of, in front

of all of them. And it says something, I'm going to, I'm going to say it out of the ESV, because I'm not,

this is the CSV, but in the ESV he says, but when I saw that their conduct was not in step with

the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, dada dada. It says earlier, talks about

that when, that how he would not yield to them, because he could see, this is someone earlier

in that same chapter two, because he wanted to preserve the truths of the gospel. This is what I,

that is, is well, that scripture says it as well as anyone I know, that what I was seeing, I was

going like, this is not in step with the truth, it's not, it's not, it's not, and you cannot

take the dignity from women that Christ gave them. You can't, you can't, they're not expendable,

we're not expendable for whether it is power, whether it is political gain, we again, I'm not saying

that some of those decisions are important, they are, I'm talking about, they don't get to be

made at the expense of the gospel or the ways of Christ. No, not by the church. Individuals outside

the church, that's, I mean, on them, the church, no, we have, we have a responsibility to walk

in step with the gospel of Christ, and I absolutely think that the message that came across,

and I think this is the other message, Carrie, and that's, I'm not going to have a, a place to even

serve, and what I saw, because there are people that think, and I don't know how you feel about this,

and this is where they're going to be people on both sides that are not going to agree with me about

what I'm going to say, but I'm talking about my own convictions. I, I was never, ever looking,

ever for one minute to take over a pulpit, never, I would not, when, what were you missing for?

I saw just a few days ago, somebody talked about women, women pastors of churches, and they

had people's pictures up there, my picture was up there. The only thing I've ever been paid to

buy a church was to teach aerobics, back in the gym, in my church gym, when I was at my 20s,

I've never been a pastor of a church, but I'm a big believer in women getting to exercise their

gifts, and what I was seeing, I was seeing such a poll that women were not even getting to

teach Sunday school places, and the community groups had replaced Sunday school. Where were they,

where were they even going to teach? They didn't want them up front in any way, in any shape or

form. They didn't feel like any, I'm talking about the hyper hyper fundamentalists. It just was like,

and I think that's what's come across is, there's no place for me. My safety is not important,

but not only is my safety not important, my gifts are of no importance to you.

You think about how women have served, and then you begin to cut them out.

It's going to have a cataclysmic ultimate effect, the freedom that will not be good.

What do you think churches that would pursue that line of thinking? What are they getting?

What are they accomplishing? What are they in their mind? What is their justification?

Because you've heard everything from misogyny to, no, that's just the way the Bible says it,

right? That kind of thing. You see a variety of things, but there's a certain,

what are you really seeing? What's really going on? I think that there is,

anyone can do it, anyone can do it, anyone that's been a scripture, even a little bit.

I can take the scripture and make it say many different things. You can proof text it,

and you can proof text it to get what you want, and what I think many, not all,

by any stretch of the imagination, I'm saying that this message that got across

it didn't, you know, we had to protect the pulpit more than we needed to protect the people,

that mindset, I think, that it's proof texting, using scripture to protect power,

and to make sure all the power sits right here. And the reason why I say that is because

Kerry, here's what I got asked this question in the Q&A just last week, what would you tell a

woman who's trying to figure this out, is trying to figure out how the New Testament feels about

women. Well, first thing I would do, first thing I would do is I would send them to Luke's gospel,

and then go on with his writing in the book of Acts, take a marker and mark every single time it says

either women woman or speaks of a woman or a girl, and it's astounding. It is astounding the place

that they had the activity among the gospel accounts, the God, God, seeming to very much make a

point through Christ of including, and not only including, but at times going, I'm going to turn

this upside down with the women are probably the one to announce that I have risen, that that

tomb is empty. And then you go through Acts and see Lydia, you see the church gathering at,

you see, in fact, you see the church gathering at John Mark some others home, all of the things

that all the times that women are active in the New Testament church, that, that,

what kills me, I said this, I was able to articulate this years ago before any of this ever

happened. It's like, I'm not trying to take away or erase first Timothy 2. I'm not saying it

doesn't say that. I'm saying that's not all it says. And when it is preached as if that is all it says,

if we have no, we're not even going to mention Acts 2, that he pours out his spirit on his sons

and his daughters and that they will prophesy what, when we just take certain

scriptures and we're going to use that to be the rule over the church when we're going like, okay,

but didn't we have to do the work of studying it all together? Did we know? Were we not

called to you? When someone throws at me, you're disobedient to the scriptures. I'm like,

okay, which scripture are you talking about? Because when you speak to me with total disrespect,

when that statement, I said, I want to talk about it, when someone's really, I mean, I'm talking

like hateful and brutal with their speech and then they're going to throw at me or someone else

that they're, you know, that they're disobedient to your heart, so disconnected from the scriptures,

you are a living corpse. So you asked me a question that I didn't answer. Oh, damn. I should answer it.

We have listeners here who have differing views and I understand as you do, Beth, that people

have different views on egalitarianism versus complementarianism, et cetera, et cetera. And it's a

bit of a theme right now on the podcast. We're having different interviews about it and light

of the data that women are leaving the church, but what I think is inexcusable, I totally understand

different views on key issues and I know you do and I know Katie Kolda's and other women leaders do

and I've had most of the generational leaders of your generation, other generations, my gender,

you know, all on this podcast and they're all very deferential. They're not there to say,

I've got the one thing that you need, you know, that is not the spirit, but what I don't

think has any room is being demeaning or degrading to women or to disregard or to be spiteful.

Now, I'm learning that in the context of a 35 year marriage where I have been dismissive

sometimes and I have been, and you know what, I'm learning as I get and you talk about your

marriage to Keith, right? Yes, yes. What am I learning as a husband? I am learning to treat my

wife with honor and respect and kindness and grace in a way that as a man doesn't come always

naturally to me. You want to hear something? I did. I did. My husband was dealing with, we were,

you know, in marriage, it's not just one person, it's both of you. He had a health crisis that

caused him to have a couple of years that are almost a blur to him, almost a blur.

And it was, I've tried to explain it in computer terms every now and then so that somebody could

understand it is like his, not just the software, but the literal hard drive just failed and then

had to be jumped started. And so there are years in there and it just so happens that they were

the years that I was going through the aftermath of 2016, of 2016, that's what I'm talking about.

And then the stuff with the SBC. So he was, of course, I was talking about it. The girls and I

were talking about it. I was, I was in the same house with him, but he was unable to really process it.

What was happening? Well, so close by. So much healing takes place. He begins to really,

then he's himself again. He starts then looking back at all of it going like, Dad blessed it.

And so I say that because it would be, he'd call the girls, our daughters and go, you're not

believe what someone so said about your mother. And they go, Dad, would you look on the day of that?

But you know, it was got, it was sort of life of that because it was like, you're a little bit late,

you're a little bit like reacting to this. This is a whole lot better now. But it was, it was an

interesting thing because he will tell you, Kerry, that watching the way women were treated,

in particular for him, because he's not a big social media person, his wife. So in our situation,

it was that he was watching how people treated his wife. It changed him. It was like, I think when you

see it, something that we have, all of us do, all of us have these tendencies, these ways that

we've been sort of trained up by culture to act, that we're there so much apart of us. We don't

even realize that they're, you know, against, against the way of Christ. And then we see it like

burgeoning out in a, you know, nine foot Goliath. And suddenly we become more set, hopefully,

if we've got any circle awareness at all, we become aware of the seed and us. And that happened

with him where he was alarmed by it and began to think. I got to pull all this stuff.

I got to, yes. Everything by the root. Yeah. I'm in a very similar place. And, you know,

cultures moved on. I've had a long marriage. You've had a long marriage. Attitudes are different

than they were. Yes. You know, at the beginning of the marriage. But I just realized I've, I've got

to change. So I know we're almost at time. I got to ask you one more question. I didn't get to

any of my questions, Beth. Congratulations. Great job. Great interview. Why, why are you just so cynical?

Why didn't you just quit? Oh my goodness.

Carrie, I've said this before and I don't, it must be hard to believe it just never fled out,

never occurred to me. And there's a reason for that. It's not just, there's, I like to tease

about being a little bit, a little bit blonde at times. But this is not because of that. It's because

I had, I'm in too long and too deep with Jesus by the time so much of this happened that

I'm just not going anywhere. I'm, I'm, I'm the, please forgive me if this sounds hyper spiritual

because I don't want it to be. And I, I wish there was a different way to say it so that

it didn't sound like that. But I mean, he's my whole life. I'm, I'm by the time I was tested

on so much of it. And that I would have been most tempted now. I've been tempted many times to be

less public, to be out of, out of the public eye so much. But as far as ministry, I knew

maybe because I just never had it easy from the beginning, maybe because I was always running

against the wind. Just in my home and stuff and had to take responsibility for my own

spiritual life and in my own faith. But I, I don't have him confused with people. I really don't.

And there are a lot of ways that I miss think and misread. But that, that wasn't the case here.

I just, he's, Jesus is Jesus and where us. And even though it was very painful,

they did not call me to ministry. The Lord did. And he has never done me wrong. He has never

undermined my dignity in any way. He has never said you're out. He has never told me

to quit to that I didn't have value. And so, you know, until he says, you're out.

I'm in because I'm in with him. I'm in with him. And

it's my calling. So, and so that, okay, you've got to give me another minute here because that

doesn't ask the question why I'm not cynical. That, that is just the question why I'm still in.

The cynicism has been protected because I, again, this is going to sound.

Right. I still enjoy him. You know, I still have a lot of joy in him. And somehow, you know,

I don't rest one more one time. I said, you know, unlike Tigger, I just, I think it's what,

what some of my detractors hate about me is that I just keep coming back because I do get down,

but Tigger, I, I just bounce, I just bounce back after I'm, I'm pretty resilient. And I do think

that is because of history. I think I had to be, I think I had to learn as a child. We had to learn

resilience. How to get back up or where would I be, Carrie? So, but I have, even this morning,

in my, in my prayer time, in my Bible reading, I just, I still love him and I still enjoy,

I just enjoy the scriptures. I enjoy fellowship in the faith. I've enjoyed the conversation.

We've just gotten to have. I love to talk about the things of Jesus. I'm just still in it. And

in his, just sustain me. I've said to him so many times, you've, you've kept me. I've told other

leaders, servant leaders that were struggling. The Lord is our keeper as someone 21 says.

And he's not going to let us go. And no matter who throws us out or has no more do you

swore us a room for us? He's not going to let us go. And I'm not going to let him go either.

Gotta tell you, you're a great writer too. That is a fascinating read. The book is called

All My Noted Up Life. Yeah, it almost reads like, I'm like, this actually happened, but it reads

like great fiction, even though it's nonfiction, you know, sometimes it's very pedantic. Thank you

for saying that nonfictiony biographies. I'm so glad. Really beautifully written. So it's called

All My Noted Up Life. For leaders who want to track with you online, you can be caught in fights

on acts. I'm sure where else can people find you these days online? And maybe they'll be glad

to know that most of the fights they can catch me now over basketball. Over a rabbit fan and

listen to some of my bros. They don't expect me to be able to talk it with them. And it's like,

oh, I know I'll talk it. I will try to talk with them. But I want my name online is the same

in both Instagram and Twitter X. And that's Beth Moore LPM, living priest ministry since the

name of the ministry. So we go by LPM and so that's how you know, that's how you know it's me.

And Carrie, I've enjoyed this so much. I hope I have not over talked.

No, you didn't over talk at all. This was great. I just love for leaders to tell their own story

in their words. So thanks for helping our audience think through some very difficult issues.

I'm sure your story is resonating with a lot of women and men. And you've given me a pause to think.

So thank you. I'm so thankful for you, Carrie. Thank you. And keep doing the work you're doing.

It's so important to serve servants. Well, I hope you found that conversation lightning.

I certainly enjoyed it. If you want show notes to talk about some of the things that we talked

about on the show, you can find them in the art of leadership academy. Absolutely free. Just set

up an account, join well over 15,000 leaders. And well, you can do that by going to the art of

leadership academy.com. You can find everything there. Coming up next, I am going to talk,

well, solo about some things that I'm thinking about. What about revival on the church?

What happens to our motivation? You know that post that makes the room look a little bit

fuller than maybe you think, well, we're going to talk about motivations. We're going to talk

about doing an internal heart check as a leader. That's coming up also coming up on the podcast,

Carl Lentz, Katie Kohl, JJ and Kate Tom on Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, and a whole lot more.

And if you don't want to miss any of that, give us a follow, a subscribe, maybe drop a comment.

And you can follow us wherever you want. Also, you know, I've talked about this a few times and

I will give it a rest at some point. But one of the debates is do you watch podcasts? Do you

listen to them? Traditionally, I'm a listener because I like to take it on the go. But Spotify, if

you're following us on Spotify now, you can seamlessly switch between audio and video. So when

you're driving, you know, you just listen. And then you can pop over if you're sitting down one

night and finish it watching on video. It's a simple tap. That's it. Super easy.

Thanks so much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment wherever

you're watching. And I hope our time together today helped you break a barrier that you're facing.