The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Matthew Fornaro on Navigating Business Partnerships: Lessons in Structure and Trust

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Today we have an amazing young man on the show.

We're going to be talking about his ways that he can help businesses be better, and all that good stuff,

and you'll probably learn some lost stuff, some legal ease lost stuff, maybe as we go along.

We'll learn some Latin on the show, maybe that too.

We have Matthew Frenaro on the show with us today.

He is attorney of law in Coral Springs, Florida.

Since 2003, he served businesses and individuals through his Coral Springs Parkland

and the greater Brewer County community as a trusted business law attorney.

His practice focuses on complex commercial litigation,

where he represents clients in matters such as contract disputes,

commercial and residential real estate conflicts, antitrust, unfair competition claims,

trade secret protection, and landlord tenant disputes.

His practice spans a wide range of businesses and civil matters.

He advises clients on IP law, UCC and creditor disputes, employment litigation,

and representative owners, homeowners and condominium associations.

He has extensive experience in customer finance and creditor rights,

including collections, post-judgment recovery, as well as handing handling escalated legislation.

Today's Monday for me, evidently, for the brain.

Beyond litigation, a Matthew assists business with a drafting and revision

of critical legal documents guiding entrepreneurs through the formation of business entities

and ensuring all required documentation is properly structured from the start.

We'll probably talk about why that's important. Matthew, what?

Welcome to show. How are you?

I'm good, Chris. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Thank you for coming.

I'll give us any comms, websites.

We're going to want people to get to know you better on the internet.

Sure. Go to finerolegal.com.

Just my last name, F-O-R, N-A-R-O, L-E-G-A-L.com.

It's got all my stuff on there, links on my contact information, all my goodies. They're all there.

Matthew, you ever considered radio with that voice?

I sometimes have, but, you know, I...

Sure people are building it to you, right?

Yeah, I'm waiting for the right opportunity. It's only been 48 years, so...

You can start a podcast for your attorney-law service.

Give us an overview of what you do there and how you do it.

Sure. You know, I've been in attorney since 2003.

I've had my own firm for 11 years and we focus on helping small businesses,

entrepreneurs, and startups with their legal means, whether it's litigation or transactional.

We represent all kinds of businesses, whether virtual, web-based, app-based,

brick-and-mortar-based, and through all phases of their life from before they start to after they end.

With the work that you do, who is your ideal client and are you relegated only to Florida?

Sure. So my ideal client is obviously, like I just said, business, preferably small business,

but I work with businesses of all size, entrepreneurs, and startups at any point in their business life.

Preferably, it would be great if they could start out before they get in business,

because we can probably do the most good and help them the most there,

but I represent them all throughout the course of their life, and I represent businesses

on licensing Florida, DC, New York, but I have clients all over the country.

So you can serve them all, and so people come to you, they want to start the businesses,

or they're entrepreneurs, they need to get going.

Why is it important to be properly structured in the right business entity from the start as we mentioned in the file?

Sure. When you start out in business, a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of founders,

startups, creators, whatever you want to call them, they're very excited to get into business,

and they want to start right away and start doing stuff.

But you have to use a lot of due diligence, you have to use a lot of caution,

you have to do a lot of strategic planning and thinking things out,

because you want to make sure before you get started that you have all the right foundations in place,

and obviously one of the biggest ones is having the right business organization,

because if you have the wrong business organization, you're going to have legal problems,

you're going to have financial problems, you're going to have tax problems,

you're going to have a bunch of liability issues and things like that.

So what happens is when clients come to me, as part of the foundation process,

I go through with them, we figure out what the best business organization is,

or then based on their circumstances, and I also work with preferably their accountant,

or if they don't have an accountant, we're bringing in a accountant to figure out from a tax standpoint,

or from a financial standpoint, also what's the best business organization for them,

because legally you can do it a couple of different ways,

but financially you can do it the wrong way, and you can get killed on your taxes.

It's the most important thing before you even start is make sure you pick the right thing before going forward.

Yeah, definitely.

I've been giving counsel to my, someone in my family who is wanting to start their very first business,

and they're going into it with a partner, which is always going to end well.

I love your answer, dude.

No, no, no.

That's it, and it sounds like you've been through some experiences like mine,

and I'm sure in your attorney work, you've seen lots of battles between partners,

but I explain that to them, the setup is important.

For most of my life being on a printer starting at 18,

I built companies to be empires.

I wanted to have a cluster of empire companies that would last in perpetuity that I could retire with.

And sadly, life doesn't work that way, and there's a 2008 housing crisis that brings the economy to a halt.

Wipes my empire off the map and my partnerships betrayed.

But since then, I found out by having a lot of great authors and thought leaders like yourself on the show

who educated me on building for an exit and how at the beginning,

when you're starting up a company, you decide, are you building for perpetuity or are you building for an exit?

Are you building something you can easily sell?

And if you don't set it upright as an entity, C-Corp, S-Corp, LLC, partnership, whatever it is,

you've got to think about that, is that correct?

Yeah, I mean, you've got to, it's all part of the game plan from the inception through the end.

So you want to make sure that you have a mechanism,

or even if you don't know if you want to get out later on, or if you want to continue on,

you've got to make sure you have an off ramp built into your operating documents,

or you're a governing document, so that's how you do it, just in case you want to do it.

Yeah, that, and I get all these solicitations to buy the Christfoss Show podcast these days.

I think it's the new scam or something.

But, you know, don't name your company after your personal name if you're considering selling it the future.

You can sell it, you just may have to wait.

You have to stay on for a long while.

Christfoss used to be here podcast.

Anyway, what are some other things that you're seeing in the marketplace,

that maybe are some leading topics of the stakes entrepreneurs are making,

or maybe things you find yourself helping entrepreneurs a lot in your, in your practice?

Sure. So it goes back to a little bit of what we're just talking about.

They jump right into business and don't do the necessary due diligence.

So one of the first things they should do is before they even start,

is to plan out everything, map everything out and have a written business plan

before they even spend any money or do anything.

And a lot of people skip that step.

So that's an important step.

Then the next thing is what we're just talking about picking the right business organization.

You have to bring in professionals to assist you.

And that's what the professionals do.

Business law attorney and accountant, a commercial banker, a commercial insurance agent.

These are all professionals who are there to help you deal with their particular niches or issues

so that you can focus on the business and make business decisions.

So a lot of people kind of skip that or they kind of try to put that hat on themselves

and do it themselves, then picking the business organization.

You know, they somehow picked the business organization based on what their mom told them

or their barber based on something they saw off the internet.

And you know, they don't put in the right governing documents.

They just go online to their secretaries.

They website and just register and think they're in business.

And then going forward, they don't have contracts in place for any time.

They have a relationship with another business or another person which governs the relationship.

So sometimes they just skip over that and do things on a handshake or not.

And they don't have like terms of service.

They don't have disclaimers.

They don't have, you know, various things in place.

And you know, sometimes it works out and they go along and things don't happen.

But sometimes they do.

And there's very bad consequences when they do.

So those are a lot of repeated issues that I see that a lot of businesses

and a lot of entrepreneurs get themselves into because they don't do the due diligence

or the follow through with the necessary steps.

Because, you know, they're so eager to get into business.

They just want to get going and they kind of step over that stuff.

And then it comes back to bite them on later on.

It really does.

You've got to have those foundational elements, contracts, things and writing.

You know, you mentioned the handshaking.

I was advising someone else starting their business recently and they said to say,

Hey, you know what, I'm just giving counsel from a business aspect entrepreneur.

Not legal counsel.

Let me make that clear because I'm not an attorney.

But Matthew is.

But I am.

Yeah.

I'm on the show.

I'm on the show.

You're right.

It's not legal with lawyers, but okay.

And we got all the solutions out of the way now.

But he was, he was, I was like, so what's the deal on this company?

How do you get paid?

The other guy has an LLC.

And I'm going to work with him.

And I'm like, what's your name on the LLC?

And, and he goes, no, we just, we're going to start this thing.

And we just decided that it's going to be a 70 30 split.

He's going to take 70.

And I'm going to take 30.

And I go, of what?

No.

Every dollar that comes in.

Well, that's not the way a business works.

There's expenses.

And then if you, if, if you make a profit, it might be a 70 30 split or whatever the hell you decide to do.

But you know, everything is on the handshake, everything's on whatever.

Let me ask you this.

Do you agree with this term?

And I'm pretty sure I didn't make this up.

I'm pretty sure I picked it up somewhere.

You never know who your partners are.

For sometimes your wife is until the money is on the table.

Right?

That's when you find out.

That's when you find out what your partners,

because some people, they see a very small amount of money that trickles in at the beginning of a business deal.

And those are fucking minds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you don't know who your partner is till the money's on the table or the money's missing from the table.

You don't know who it is.

I mean, everyone goes into business with the best of intentions.

They do.

Everyone's hugging and kissing and.

No one's in there.

Like, yeah, maybe they'll give it a shot.

Maybe it works out if not.

I hate you.

No one's like that.

Everyone's got the best of intentions.

But life happens and, you know, things happen.

People are not who they think you.

You think they are.

They think you are, you know, situations change.

And if you don't have it in writing, it doesn't exist.

So your boy is with the 70, 30 split.

He said he said deal.

Oh, yeah.

You know, even if they have stupid text messages or whatever claiming that that shows what's going on,

it would be great if it was reduced to an operating agreement.

But yeah, I mean, it happens.

And I learned a long time ago.

I wrote about this in my book Beacon's Leadership.

If you don't own it in control, in my opinion, you can tell me if I'm wrong.

But, you know, I mean, when you build big companies, you have to bring a lot of people

and you have to share ownership.

But to me, I just learned the hard way after partners.

So we're 35 years of business and only companies, dozens of companies.

If I don't own it or have the controlling 51 plus percent interest in it, I don't do it.

I don't invest in it.

I don't play in it.

Unless I'm the final boss, I just don't do it.

I've had too many things where, you know, people see $5,000 show up on the table in the first month or whatever.

And lose their fucking minds.

You think that it was a large amount of money for them.

And then the greed comes out.

You know, we need to renegotiate this, whatever.

But having it in writing, like that's so important, putting down who owns what stock.

And the other thing is, too, is if you don't own an interest in the LLC or the company in the C Corp, the OS Corp,

whatever it is you're joining, you're just an employee.

You can be fired without cause, probably in any time, especially if you're kind of operating without, without, you know, any sort of apply contract, maybe.

Yeah, I mean, unless, you know, it's in writing and unless you're a member of an LLC and you have, you know, your membership certificates,

or unless you're a shareholder and a corporation and you have shares, unless you're a partnership and you have a percentage of the partnership,

you're just there at will.

I mean, in a state like Florida, where I am, where it's at will employment, which just means I can be fired at any time for any reason.

You know, they can show you the door anytime they want.

There's no obligation to keep you around for any reason unless you have some kind of equity interest and something you're gone at someone's whim.

Yeah. And I mean, like I said, with people see that money on the table, they're going to have to split this with a city and I own this company.

Yeah, I just learned a long time ago.

I live by that rule.

It's a little hard to do that if you have a, you know, some big company where you're having to sell on Silicon Valley to, you know, VCs and stuff.

They're going to take an interest in the company.

But in that case, I would have to obscure that rule.

But the most part, any, I just learned it's such a nightmare to deal with partners, especially if they don't have a business acumen.

You know, they really leads me to a point I need to bring into more of my council. Probably something important to talk about here is the acumen of the other person.

I'm so many times, you know, I'm the person who started dozens of companies and everything that we've done and built.

And usually if I'm going into business with something, they usually don't have my business sort of acumen.

They've never built multi-million dollar companies. They don't, they've never managed that a large of money. They never had thousand employees.

And so usually they're on my carry list.

I'm not, you know, how important do you think that is to, when you go into business to look at your partner and go, how much business acumen they have compared to me?

Who's leading the situation? And do I need to assess for their flaws?

I personally think that's important. You know, I've seen it across the spectrum of people with, you know, their partner or business affiliate, whatever you want to call them.

It knows a lot about business and knows nothing about business. And, you know, I mean, some of that can be overcome based on if the other person's bringing in money or bringing in sweat equity or bringing in a lot of enthusiasm or a lot of know-how.

But if you just kind of get a dud as your, your man next to you, I mean, you're going to have problems. So, I mean, that's why you, again, you want to have everything in running.

You want to make sure that if you're the brains behind the operation and someone's coming in with you, what are they coming in with you for?

What are they bringing in with them? I mean, it's great that you can be the business mind.

But, you know, if they're bringing in money, okay, great, then they're bringing money or they're bringing in technical know-how or they're bringing in a contact list or something like that, then great.

But if they're just kind of there glumming off of you, then that's not good. And before you even get into business, you may want to think, what do you need this person for before you figured that out later on?

And then, you know, they've got their handout looking for 50%.

Yeah. I, you know, I experienced that with my first partner of our first multi-millionaire company.

When we started, I was the business brains and part of the financeur, he knew how to do the business that he was working for the business.

And we were creating a competitor, or not a competitor. I wanted to serve the business, but we knew the competitors.

And so, he thought he knew more about business than I did. So, we would argue, we started arguing very early on about billing.

And one of the things that copied from a competitor that we were building against was billing every two weeks instead of every 30 days.

Because they were the largest servicer in our market, and they were billing every two weeks.

And being in business before, I understood the importance of cash flow. Because, you know, you can bill all you want, and do all the work you want, and make all the quote unquote revenue want.

But if you now collect it, it doesn't mean shit. And when you're a startup, you know, cash is king, you know, that burn rate and everything else.

And so, I said, okay, we're going to go ahead and bill every two weeks. And he was like, you can't do that.

You know, the rule of the law is you got to bill every 30 days. Mike, there's no rule that says that.

And, you know, the initial arguments that we had in our business, I finally sat down with him. And I said, look, we're going to change the thing.

I'm the leader of this company. I'm the CEO. I have far more experience than you. And I want 51% of this company, or it shuts down now. And you take 49.

I'm a, you know, me, you know, I've been friends with them most of my life. And I said, you know me, but I can't be sitting and arguing with you.

Overs shit that you don't know, you don't understand, even if I explain it to you, because you think that's the way it should be because someone else did it that way.

And that was really important because after that, we didn't have to argue about stupid shit anymore because my law, my rules, the was the law.

And I had the experience to back it up. I mean, don't do that if you don't have the experience to back it up.

But in the end, it bit me after 13 years, but we had a good run.

Yeah, we're like, we're like, you know, the band that breaks up after every 10 years.

Some people don't have any runs. So at least you had a good run.

Exactly. Yeah. But that's a, that's a good example of, you know, really assessing your partner and their business acumen, I think.

The other thing I want to ask you about what I've got you online is, you know, this is something I discovered too with partners.

Perform a, I don't know if performance, the right word, but performing agreements.

So one of the problems I always had in my companies is I was the, I'm that type a alpha CEO, leader, big mouth, you know, all the things, right.

And usually my best partner is somebody who will do rudimentary shit. I'm the visionary, I'm the innovator, but I don't do rudimentary stuff.

I don't do the same accounting over and over again. That's, it's, it's needed, but I, I just don't, that's not my key point.

And so having a partner for a lot of times who is the opposite of me, who can enjoy doing that.

But if you asked him to do anything visionary, you'd be like, hey, you come with some ideas and they just draw a blank.

But if you give them a task, they can do it over and over again really well.

And if they're a business partner, hopefully you can trust them, which I did.

And I think you trusted me for a long time.

And, but when it really came to what was driving value in the company, it was me.

And there really wasn't a perform between us that we should have worked out saying if one person drives more income or does more work or is working more longer hours, you know,

I was the guy who was always taking stuff home. I was always working weekends in the office. He was doing none of that.

And when he left the company after 13 years, I literally replaced him.

I went from somebody I was paying $40,000 a month to to someone who was, I replaced with a $2,500 secretary.

That's how much work was being done by him and our company.

And how replaceable it was.

And I just said they're just going, why have we been paying this guy all this money all these years?

And so, performance wise, is that something you should analyze or maybe put into contract?

I'm going to do X amount of work and get paid in direct proportion.

And if you don't do X amount of work, maybe, you know, we renegotiate this thing.

Yeah. I mean, that's definitely in any operating agreement for an LLC or your bond laws for your corporation, whatever.

I mean, you should put in what the people do.

Yeah. And if it's not in those documents, have it say that it's going to be in a separate set of documents that you then can reevaluate as time goes on or whatever.

But yeah, it should definitely be reduced to writing. It should spell out, you know, Chris is the thought visionary person and he does this.

And then Chris is, you know, sidekick does this. And if they don't do this, then this happens and things like that.

So yeah, it should definitely be in there and should be spelled out.

Yeah. And in that way in court, you're covered, right?

You've had the litigation for probably stuff like this before.

Yeah. I mean, if you either did it or you didn't do it, if you didn't do it, you're in for each of contracts.

And then if it's not written, then, you know, it's just open ended here, say, and people like, I've heard judges say, that's cute, but you don't have a contract.

Correct. It goes back to what we're talking about with the 730 thing before.

Whatever your word versus their word.

Yeah.

You know, he's going to show up and say, Chris said he's going to do all the work and just pay me because he loves me.

So in your experience, I mean, you've been doing this for a long time, 20 plus years.

In your experience, do you ever see any partnerships that really survive into perpetuity or is it just a matter of time?

You know, that's a good question. I mean, I would say I've seen long term business affiliations between people, but I would say at the end of the day, pretty much everything has an ending.

Whether it's Acrimonious or whether it's Harmonious or whatever.

I mean, I don't think, you know, there's very few businesses that go on forever in its original intent and its original form with its original cast.

I mean, it's like a TV show that goes on for a long time.

You know, the cast, people come and go and whatever.

And that's kind of how most business organizations are, other than like the out for the owner or whatever, you know, the headhunt show.

The supporting cast comes and goes and a lot of time in business, the partner or the business affiliate or whatever.

They tap out, they sell out, they get blood out, they get, you know, kicked out.

And, you know, I would say for the most part, yeah, that's probably a true story. That's probably not a true story. That is a true story.

All the more from my rule, then, you just cemented the rule. I'm going to make a monument to it now.

The rule of, if you don't know, if you don't control it, don't do it.

I don't know. I mean, if you're an investor and you're investing in some Silicon Valley startup, yeah, I get it.

But for me, most of my stuff is about me and my money and usually a partner and whatever I'm building.

I like to keep control of it, but yeah, you know, it's kind of, you know, people just don't always get along and sometimes over time things changes.

You know, my big partnership fell apart because we got, I got Yoko on it by his girlfriend.

You know, she came in and was like, you don't need him. You could do your own thing.

You could make your own money.

Okay. You tried that for two years after and you know, this is really with Yoko on instead of living in my cart name.

Yeah, exactly. There's a joke there somewhere, but I'm not going from it.

Yeah, I don't know. It's a pretty good metaphor. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe I'll maybe I'll just just go into partnership with vegans from here on out.

Even there maybe there's the Linda McCartney joke. The rest in peace. He's wonderful. I'm sure.

And so is a Mr. McCartney or yeah, yeah, Paul McCartney. And I say, Carthy. Okay.

It's Monday folks, even though it's Thursday here at the Christmas.

Well, we got the winter of an entire week behind here. So it's the evening.

You got a lot of miles on your phone.

And I'm pretty sure I'm midstroke at this point. What haven't we talked about? Maybe that you want to let people know that you do and some of the services you offer or

maybe some of the topics you think are occurring today's environment.

Sure. So if you want, we can talk about the effect of technology, particularly AI on business.

Oh, let's do. That's a favorite subject. What are you seeing in your end of the woods?

I can tell you from me personally, from I love AI. I use it in my actual law practice. I use it in my actual business, you know,

running my business and things like that. I love it. It's great. It's the greatest thing that's ever happened.

However, I am responsible for it. I take control over it and I make sure I quality control vet and check everything that it sends out before it does anything.

And that's what the issue with AI is is that people just kind of blindly hit print, hit send and let it go out in the world.

And when bad things happen, oh, I thought it was okay.

Yeah. And that's kind of the moral of the story is that I think AI is great for any business of any size, any point in their life.

I mean, there's AI for everything. You know, you got to make sure that at the end of the day, you're in charge. You're the person is in charge.

You got to make sure what you're putting out there is correct and useful.

Yeah. I learned that the hard way. I had my first AI mockup, I guess. I don't know what you call it last week.

So I shoot a lot of models on and I do a lot of photography, I do street photography, model photography, I do everything I love photography.

And so we'll use the higher models to do a portfolio shoot at a studio and stuff like that.

And one of the cows that I shot with before she'd seen an ad that I was running for new models to expand my portfolio.

And I've already shot her so I didn't want to try to broaden the portfolio.

And she wrote me and said, Hey, Chris, you know, I really like to do that job.

I think we're offering like $200 for an hour or two to show up and photograph.

I really would like to do that job. And I was in a podcast like this and I have a giant camera that fits over the screen.

That's kind of what my head's always bobbing around and looked at her email and I swear to my life I typed out and pretty sure I saw it.

But I saw that I typed out, you know, I'm trying to expand my portfolio.

Yeah, sorry, we'll shoot you another time.

If you got the new Gmail, it's got that Gemini crap and I haven't figured out how to install it.

But if you hit the wrong key, which I think is usually a backslash or four slash, it will auto populate the thing.

It did that without me noticing it behind the screen that I hit the keyboard or something.

And I sent her a message, say, great, we have you booked, we'll give you $200.

It's for next week on whatever, you know, that and sent the email.

I thought I sent a different email that I had typed out, but the automated over ran it a couple days later, she writes me just all excited.

And so related that she got the job.

I really need the money and, you know, she's a great gal.

And I had to let her down and I had to realize that I just got fucked by.

Yeah.

And it's because I did what you, I didn't do what you said.

Make sure that you, you qualify it before it ever goes out and you'll check it.

No, well, you know, let's at least add Max.

It only costs you upsetting her and maybe 200 bucks.

I mean, my industry, yeah, we've been ravaged by AI because your attorneys are, you know, there's a lot of lazy attorneys, a lot of whatever you want to say.

You just, you know, cut and paste whatever AI they're using sends and they file it with the court and then the court and the opposing counsel.

What the hell is this?

Yeah.

And they've been sanctioned a lot of embarrassment, public center or public center sanctioning monetary fines, bar grievances, all kinds of stuff because these attorneys just take what's given to them.

Don't check it and just file it and now, you know, you've got serious legal consequences that go with it.

So my industry has probably been harder than most industries regarding AI stuff because of the, you know, the high stakes and whatever.

But there's a lot of, there's a huge movement now of people trying to make up for it and try to, you know, quality control stuff.

But, you know, it's the same thing with any business.

I mean, the AI is great.

It's a force multiplier.

It does everything, but you got to make sure you're in charge of it.

Yeah.

I mean, you're right.

It was a, it was very minimal mistake, but it was a very powerful lesson.

I'm glad I learned something that wasn't, you know, world changing or a big deal or, you know, thousands of dollars or whatever, you know, business deal.

Yeah, I'll send you $10,000 or something.

It types out, you know.

It's in response to the Nigerian printing mail or something.

Oh, yeah. Here's my bank account and my, go ahead and dip into there.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

You guys have had it at widespread.

I remember seeing the first report of the first attorney, at least that made the news, I guess, where he used chat GPT to, to, for his plea or his response.

Whenever they submit the court and that did not go well.

No, no, there's all, you know, I'm a big LinkedIn troll and, you know, I get my feed all day long with just people getting sanctioned and left it right.

Wow.

And they just haven't earned you had it.

Yeah.

And it's got to be embarrassing as a law firm because you look, you look kind of incompetent.

It's like, you know, you can't just draw that stuff up.

And people's lives sometimes are on the line.

Yeah.

It's what you're doing here.

You know, this isn't especially if you're doing criminal law, I guess.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's right.

That's what's the liberties that they can, you know, you're citing hallucinated stuff.

And I've had jet GPT lied to me.

So, so people can work with you.

They can work with you across the nation to understand that correctly.

Yeah.

And the advisory and stuff.

How do they, how do they console with you or find out if they're a fit for your service?

Sure.

So, just reach out to me.

Go to my website for narrowlegal.com.

Shoot me an email.

Call me.

Send me a message.

Text me.

Reach out to me on social media.

Read all my, if you want any cool information that's not hallucinated or whatever.

You can go on my website.

I got tons of blogs and videos and all kinds of stuff for resources for people and business wherever they are.

Thank you, Matthew, for coming the show and giving us some great answers and making me more believe in the crazy thing I believe in.

You know, if you don't know it, you don't control it.

I thought it sounded crazy.

It's true.

Yeah.

It really is true.

And I mean, you really, I think you have to vet your partners.

I think if you vet your partner's character.

I think if there was one thing I would do in going back now is I would vet their character.

What are their skills at?

You know, because the things that we learned about me being a visionary and him being a rudimentary sort of person.

We just kind of fell into that.

We didn't plan that at all.

And I think in the future, I would.

It was a great partnership for 13 years until Yokohama showed up.

But that's sometimes that's having the Beatles, baby.

I'll tell you when I talk about partnership.

I don't want to get too off-topper.

But you look at the breakup of my favorite duo of all time hauling oats.

If you read what each one of them says, you know, it's a very similar to your story.

Yeah.

Who would have ever thought those guys who are those lovey songs would fall in love?

Exactly, man.

I'm glad I saw them in concert three times because they're one of my favorites.

Even though, you know, I'm a child of the 80s.

So they were number one when I was around.

But yeah, it's very interesting to see their business relationship fall out.

And what they each have to say about their business and things like that.

Hopefully they kiss the makeup and we all like to see them on stage.

Probably sounds like you're a fan.

I'm a fan.

I mean, I grew up in the 70s and 80s too, where I mean, they pretty much ruled the radio.

Like every other song was one of theirs because they had a huge library of hits.

And I think it was them and Steely Dan pretty much 24 seven and then some disco crap.

Yeah.

So you just, yeah.

So Matthew, thank you for coming to the show.

We really appreciate it.

Thanks for my audience for tuning in.

Go to goodreads.com, fortresschristfosslinkton.com, fortresschristfoss.

Chris Foss wanted to talk to you and Chris Foss on Facebook and YouTube.

Be sure to be good to each other.

Stay safe.

We'll see you guys next time.

You've been listening to the most amazing intelligent podcast ever made to improve your brain and your life.

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Hey Matthew, great show man.

Great job.