The Difficulties of Being a Heel in WWE

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1:01Base models compare based on manufacturers' websites. Welcome to the bust open podcast along with Robin Lumberg, I'm Jonathan Hood. And on today's show we talk about Randy Orton. How difficult is it to be a heel in 2026? Robin and I discuss Randy Orton trying to be a heel, but can't quite get there with the fans of Mexico City right here on the bust open podcast. This is the busted open podcast. Let's talk a little bit about Randy Orton. You know, Randy Orton has this promo. We're going to hear excerpts of the promo in a second. He's in Mexico City. And so because WWE is not in Mexico City proper, not not smack down raw. They're not there. It's been, was it been 15 years since they did TV there? It's been a long time since they did actual TV there. Triple A is doing great numbers and they're doing a great job on YouTube being in Mexico under the undertaker. But my point is, is that it's very rare that they see Randy Orton on TV and he'll be able to respond to Randy Orton a promo.

2:10But you know what Randy Orton is going through, Robin Lumberg? He's going through what a lot of heels are going through in 2026. And that being able to retain or get heel heat. There's only one real heel in WWE, you know, one that is always gets the same reaction. That's Gunther. The thing with Randy Orton though, here's the issue and this is why it's difficult. And really you loop this back to WrestleMania and the whole Pat McAfee thing and all that because it was the same sort of story. But you mentioned nostalgia earlier in the show, you know, to quote Rick James and spin it a little bit. The Stahlges and Hellibut draw. You know, when we, when we feel nostalgia, we, we, it immediately takes us back to something, a moment when we were happy, a moment when we were satisfied, a moment when we were you for it. And with Randy Orton, we all know him as the legend killer.

3:13We all know him as the guy who's going to double cross you and the, the Viper and hit the RKO out of nowhere. So when he leans into those heel tactics, when he leans into that heel persona, what he's really doing is giving us the Randy Orton. We all know and love and have known and love for decades now. So I think that's where the difficulty with him resides in getting a heel reaction because the heel version of Randy Orton is what made Randy Orton who he is today and why he's a legend himself. Cool. What about the rest of the company that's trying to be heels, explain that. The rest of the company that's trying to be heels, well, the problem there Jonathan is that the bad guy is the good guy. The bad guy is cool, right? Like I mean, ever since ever since you know, you got into that gray area. Look, I mean, you've got a there's a comic book behind me, incredible whole number 181 first appearance of Wolverine, right?

4:17Like in the 90s, whatever the case did like at that point, at some there, there was that shift that happened in the late 90s, I think specifically where we started rooting for the, I don't know if you necessarily say the bad guy, but the tweener, right? The one with the edge and Wolverine personifies that and with the attitude era, I mean, we were just talking about this day and wrestling what happened with the NWO, the NWO was the coolest damn thing. And then Stone Cold was the coolest damn thing. And then the rock in the nation of domination, you know, becoming the rock was the coolest damn thing. And I don't think that's ever changed back all the way. I mean, to see him punk to Roman Reigns, you know, who's a heel, I think it certainly behaves. Like a heel. So I think that's the difficulty there is that there is a huge portion of the fan base that wants to cheer for for that character or those characters versus John Cena, who was the good guy for the longest time.

5:18And he he got the mixed version from the crowd. He got the let's go Cena and Cena sucks. It's just bad creative there. I mean, that actually could have worked, but the creative behind it was horrible. And John in some interviews recently is kind of told you that without saying it, just because Travis Scott and all this. Oh, just nonsense. The biggest problem with that is it didn't make sense. Right. Yes. He had his one thing about the fans. Okay, we were but but it never it never came when you when you gave us the way it started and then never brought that back home. It didn't make sense. And I think that was the glaring hole there. Robin, for any TV show or any movie or professional wrestling, there must be a protagonist and antagonist. It has to be like, however you want to whoever you want to root for in the story or the movie or in the match. Sister talking wrestling. There's got to be one of the other. You can't have blurred lines in every match, but my point to you is, and we're going to hear from Randy in a second, is that Randy is giving a heel promo in Mexico City is like, oh, we love you, Randy.

6:23Now listen, now to your point, because he's one of the last legends that's left that's wrestling on regular basis, then I can understand like no matter what Randy, we just love you. I know that's got to be frustrating to some degree to Randy, because he's trying to tell a story of someone that's a heel. But the fans are not buying it. But what my point is is that in wrestling in general, it is difficult for someone to be able to be hated 100% and I say, Gunther is on the top of that list. Like he like if we're doing the pyramid, it's Gunther by himself is the home's mountain, right? It's him. It's him at the top. And then it's like maybe live Morgan here or there like there's certain people, but the point is is that wrestling is not supposed to be where everybody's over and everybody gets cheered once they hear the entrance. That's it. I think that that's a problem if you're telling a story, because even if you're on the mic and talking about someone's dead dog, you still getting cheers for it. There's a problem. There's a disconnect. And of course, if you are wrestling promotion, you're the one is supposed to be able to tailor the cheers, the booze and how things work. You're supposed to control the audience based on the stories that you tell.

7:35I'm just telling you like that is a problem where everybody gets cheered and everybody entrance and wrestling. You can't have that. You can't have, I mean, you have it yet, but you can't have that because then now who is the antagonist? No, I hear what you're saying. Does that make sense to you? You know, I hear what you're saying. I would say though, as long as there's a response from the crowd, you're, you're doing okay. Like as long as the crowd is not apathetic about what's going on because then you know, we started the show hell. We started the show talking about how the crowd and the fans can have influence on the product. And sometimes you just see that actually play out. You get Hogan and rock and Toronto and the fans choose right like they decide where they're going with it. And I think we see that more and more often today where you've got two people who are both getting a reaction. But when they they wind up squaring off with one another, who does the crowd decide I'm cheering for versus I'm going against even if they're predominantly getting positive reactions in the lead.

8:42All right. Let's take this to the sports that we cover on a regular basis, you know, okay. So so it's bears and Packers and it's the Chicago bears and Green Bay Packers. They hate each other. It's been it's been rooted in hate for a long time. It's the equivalent of the Packers coming to soldier field and the fans in Chicago are cheering the Green Bay Packers when they come onto the field. It's the equivalent of the Kansas City Chiefs and the Raiders now in Vegas where the Vegas Raiders come to Arrowhead. And it's like I'm rooting for the Chiefs, but I'm rooting for the Raiders too because I'm rooting for a great great game. Does that make any sense to you? It is is the woman over your shoulder, Caitlin Clark going into not Indiana, but going to Connecticut or going to a different play. And all of a sudden you're cheering Caitlin Clark and you're cheering for your team too. You might be a bad example because that does have no, but there's a mixed reaction. That's not true. And said there's a mixed reaction in place because we have seen where Indiana fever. There's a mixed reaction to booze and cheers. And and cheering for your own team. That doesn't make sense. Someone has to be the bad guy. Initially.

9:48Yeah, look, I know I get it. I just I'm trying to think is it a solvable problem? Like what what exactly like because if the most dastardly things possible, don't work into the the heel factor, don't result in those booze. What exactly is creative to do? Because I mean, I know that you know like because you don't want another McAfee, right? Like that that happened. I don't know what the exact impetus was for it. But one of the reasons you could spin that was you're not you know, we needed people to root against Randy Orton. We need people to hate Randy Orton. We we were putting this interjecting that the heel manager in there. If you can't if nothing will get that heel response because the fans just find this person to be beloved. What what what can creative do like so I'll spin it back to you that way. What do you do to turn one of these folks that fans want to cheer into a true blue genuine heel that they're going to boo. You go deep into the paint creatively and do and have that person do the most dashed really things say the most dashed really things to go after fans. It's almost like the insult comic at the comedy club.

11:00Someone that's going there. They have their set and all of a sudden they get booze and they're like all of a sudden the set changes and they're like, yeah, your mom is so fat. And then it goes after this person goes after this gender again. Like you can be a heel that way. You can. Usually it starts with the microphone. Robin starts with is that the rustling that the five star match. It's the promo right. And it and it's going into deep into the paint where you are where it's undeniable that this person is hateable. That you have to do it that way. Listen, in other words, in 2026 like Jim Cornett in the midnight Express would have been baby faces, even though the gym used to say the most vile stuff to people right and to the opponents. Oh, when they would come down. I guess all everyone just throw up the X. Oh, it's been I expressed because Jim Cornett insults me and insults my intelligence. Oh my God. Now, it'd be Kevin Sullivan back in the day. They used to have a golden spike in and hollow and a Hawaii just spiking guys are in Florida just spiking guys. And he was into devil worship. And he used to have a snake around him before Jake the snake Robert used to have a snake around him.

12:04And so he was deep into the devil worship and the the evil. That's a baby face in 2026 because he's that my point is I'm giving you like the ultimate ultimate heels back in the day. And in 2026 with this audience, people like King Kong Brody or your Paul Orn door for King Kong Bundy against Hogan. I guess those guys are just be baby Fade. Here comes big Bundy. Ah, he's gonna take my hero Hogan before I love when Bundy comes out there. That's not how that works. You must have someone on the other side to do dislike, but that's on creative. I'm not blaming the wrestlers. I'm blaming the creative process of that. You got to kill Damien. Yeah. No, but cheer the Damien gets squashed by the earthquake. You cheer quick. So that he's he sits on the snake on serenites made event. And so now you cheer earthquake because now the snake is killed. That doesn't mean so you're proving the point if the fans are going to cheer that what can creative actually do if you got the, you know, the bag.

13:09You know, you're going as deep as you can in the bag if the snake is getting sat on in the bag like I mean, I'm still traumatized. This day. Like I can't even think about it without getting upset. No, but no, but to your point to your point. Oh, but there's a reaction. Yeah, and this 2026 crowd would have cheered for the death of the snake. They would have they would have booed Jake Roberts and they would have cheered earthquake for killing the snake. This crowd these fans know to love that. It sounds like you're making a critique of society. Well, I am. Well, I'm good. Well, I'm critiqued. He is like a shades of gray of everything, right? And I'm from a wrestling hero which everything was black and white. That's that's the point. So here's it. So so your honor. Let me give you exhibit a of this from Randy Orton. So Randy Orton says that Cody Rhodes show who he was on sunny nights made event. Let's listen.

14:10Cody showed the entire world exactly who I have always known him to be. Cody Rhodes is no killer. Cody Rhodes. Is a good man. Nah, nah, nah, Cody Rhodes is a good man. He's a good father. He's a good husband. He's a good friend. Robin, Cody Rhodes is a good man. A good father, a good husband and a good friend. What is he's putting him over as the ultimate baby face and the fans of Mexico say he says, if that he's a good friend, a good husband, who cares about a good father. See the see the devil. He's he's separating himself from Cody saying that he's all these good things because he's a good man.

15:10No, we don't care about that. We just care about the RKO and the Viper. That's a problem. That's a problem. But again, is it a fixable one because like if if that is lame, right? I feel like the only solution is you get the tweener Cody Rhodes with a twist and then the true heel because otherwise it is it is extraordinarily hard. It is damn near and possible to be a you know, red meat baby face. Like it is all of the Cody Rhodes deserves an award for for doing it as long as he did. Like I said, Cena deserves an award for being able to do it for his entire career. Essentially until that retirement tour because that it generally gets rejected. Even even back to you know, Rocky, my via die Rocky die. We're the same. We're not dealing with a new thing here.

16:11Yes, this has been around for a minute. Big dog Roman reigns rejected. You know, like it just thrown back in your face rejected. If you're not, if you don't have an age, it's almost it's nearly impossible. And then the problem is I think that we're where you're really getting to is the ones who are supposed to be like you just how do you as hard as it is to be a baby face. It's even harder to or adjust as hard I guess to be a true heel because it is very rare that you get somebody who gets a unified boo reaction. So is our solution? We mean we give the title to goon through. Is that is that where he landed on? I think that we're I think we're going to get there because universally no one likes that guy. And by the way, he's not trying to be a cool heel. He comes out there with the suit jacket and the dress shoes and just tells you how it is. And so I like that. So here's another example. Randy Orton on and again, this is Randy Orton as a heel trying to tell Mexico City and and smack that like look.

17:16Hey, man, this is who he is and this is who I am. Randy on what makes him different from Cody Rhodes. And I know one thing. I know one thing's a fact and that is that Cody Rhodes's soul is not for sale. Cody Rhodes is no killer. Cody Rhodes is no killer. But I am. And I don't care. I don't give a rat's ass if anybody perceives me as being a good person or not. That means nothing to me. Yay. The killer. Yay. He says Cody's soul's not for sale. Uh huh. You know, and he says that, you know, again, and yet I'm a killer and Cody's not. Oh, you're the killer. Let's root for the killer. That's a problem, Robin Lumberland. Again, he has a separation of saying this is who I am and this is how wholesome and how wonderful Cody is as a person.

18:19So you should be rooting for the baby face, right? It is him actually pushing Cody out there, putting him over by saying that this is the person that you should buy the phone finger for. This is the guy that is the baby face and I'm a dirty rotten heel. No, but you're killer. Yay. Root for the guy that's going to kill the guy. It is pretty amusing though. I will say that line that you referenced stood out to me when he said the his soul is not for sale because we know what that's a call back to. So I, I, you know, it was that just because everybody would, would get that sort of reaction or was there, you know, we're always looking for these Easter eggs. In some of these lines like Cody Rhodes using the Paul Heyman line a couple weeks ago to me. It was noteworthy that Rand York and said those exact words because of obviously we know the rock, the final boss was trying to acquire Cody Rhodes soul. I don't know if it was for sale or not. It was a, you know, a transaction in that sense, but it was certainly something that that he was going after.

19:23Let's root for the guy with the knife. I said of the hero that's trying to get the knife away from the killer. That's what we did. That's where we are right now because there's root for every entrance because everybody's cool when everybody's cool everybody's not over. That's a, that's a fact. That's a fact. Just because you get a reaction. Does that mean that's good for the company? Everybody. There's a lot of them over though. You know, my, my son plays WWE 2K a lot, right? And one thing I noticed like we were playing it me and my two sons were playing it the other day. And you know, when you get the entrance, you can skip it or not. Yeah, I was taking note of like which entrances they were letting play through and which ones they were skipping because I think that was a good indicator of how over. I suppose you're right about that actually. Randy sets his sights on the WWE Championship. That's listen.

20:49Coming for you. Okay, I can get with that. He wants to win the championship again. Okay, great. But he also mentioned while he's doing that, he's going to empty the clip. So let's root for the trench coat killer. Randy Orton. Let's just let's go. Let's go root for the guy with the trench coat. Let's do that. I mean, your broader point is is very clear at this point. But I mean, how much of this is macro versus micro in this case to where there's just nothing that's going to get Randy Orton boot. Like to just people, you know, just thinking of his craze face or the the smacking of the mat. When he's down, I just don't know if there's anything that's going to get people to boo Randy or. I understand, but I guess my broader point is you can start from Randy Orton, but this is this flows through the company and throw and goes through wrestling in general. Where it's hard to be able to be someone that's else say give that those lines as some other person is trying to be a heal. They're still getting cheers.

21:51That's that's a problem. It's not a this is not a Randy Orton discussion. This is I've just used them as an example of people in Mexico City rooting for a legend. I get that. But what about the the first or second or third year wrestler that's trying to be a heal. But yet because the lines are so cool and because they do cool moves that they can't get the type of reaction you're looking for. I'm sure like Michael Hayes is in the back right. I'm sure that gorilla and he's listening to this promo. He's got to be like dude, dude, dude. That's really good promo. I like what he said there and he's got to be like, oh, he didn't get the reaction. I was looking for probably slams the pen down just like, oh well, this is where we are. Dude, dude, dude. I'm sure that's what Mike laser saying and who knows how to be a heal. Yeah, no, what you're saying is Randy Savage would get cheered for crushing Ricky steambo slurrants. Exactly with the bell with the bell. Absolutely. Yeah, Randy and actually you know some of my friends were they were actually were rooting for Randy, which is a Randy Savage at that time. Yeah. Yeah. But no, but that's a perfect example, right.

22:51We can go through a top 10 of things that were dastardly that would get over in 2026. Right. So soon we make that list. There's things that we that people used to hate. What would love today because they're cool. Randy Savage could not be a heal today. Impossible. There was no way Randy Savage could be. Yeah. He was from from from lovely Elizabeth to the beautiful robes to the cool promo to all the moves. And by the way, a high flyer in his day too. Like a guy that would wrestle on his tippy toes because he's really all of like 510, 59. But wrestle like he's 6.1. So obviously people would love him. I mean, when I was in school, people really like Randy because he was so different. You know, so since it was then most of the Piper's pits would get a different reaction today. That's exactly right. So just as you said, it's a microcosm of society, Robert Lumber. Shawn Michaels put Marty Janani to the barbershop window.

23:53Marty went through the window. That's so cool. And some of my friends were just like, yeah, Jeanette. He sucks. Michael's escape. Exactly. Exactly. The Bobby Heenan line loved it, man. Coming up next, Jonathan and I react to Sami Zane capturing WWE gold again. We'll really keep it a little longer this time around. The fastest growing pro wrestling show on the planet. Busted open every day, 9th new Eastern. With the discovered cashback card, it's payback time when you earn cashback on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cashback at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cashback at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas and at restaurants. It pays to discover terms applying. See discovered dot com slash five for details.

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26:00Limited time offer nationwide based on sports book predictions and free to play sports contest availability varies by state. Hey before your q3 call I've got the campaign brief ready built from last quarters data and the competitive landscape. Great did you include the differentiation angle the cmo last for already in there three angles no competitors using right now just need your approval approved. Thanks oh agents where would we be without you somewhere with a lot more tabs open. Create your first Monday agent in minutes at Monday dot com. Hey listeners Dave LaGrecca here loving busted open if you want to hear new episodes add free and get access to exclusive bonus content subscribe to serious XM podcast plus on apple podcast or visit serious XM dot com slash podcast plus to start your free trial today. First I just talked to you about Nikon. Nikon was quoted this past week and he said this before but I'm just going to just reiterate something that he said a lot goes.

27:07You know we ignore what is being said on social media about WWE and that we ignore the outside noise every time that he takes a mic talking about wrestling he goes we don't worry about the internet we don't worry about the outside noise internally we know exactly what we're doing. He may be saying that for himself but those in creative WWE clearly are listening to us as wrestling fans and maybe not 100% influenced by everything that we say on WW radio or what's on the internet but Robin you could tell. That the fans have some kind of influence on what's happening now because what's happening now in wrestling is an old wrestling term called hot shotting hot shotting the territory hot shotting means that you throw anything against the wall to be able to get a claim or attention old school bookers used to do this just like you know what we're a little stagnant right now let's do something for a month that comes out of nowhere like having title changes on house shows. Or changing the title on TV and a non PLE right now we're going through a phase of WWE hot shotting the territory as they used to say back in the day and it's great it's not a negative it's actually great.

28:15You know I think it's also I mean the fact that Stephanie Vicar can win the title on a house show mixes the things up a little bit right like you're not used to seeing that you're used to you know if it's a house show it's only for the people that were in the house but that is something that has an effect on everybody who's in their house watching. You know Ross Smackdown the next PLE and all that obviously Sami Zayn on Friday night the same thing and that's one of the great things Jonathan about. Pro Wrestling is the involvement of the fans like the fans being another character in the show and I think you have to be careful because there's a there's a distinction right there is there is the noise because the the real. What I would measure is generally what's happening in the arenas and I'll use Jusso as a good example of that like you go to a you go to a show. It doesn't matter how many people click dislike on YouTube when they're all yeeting the stands that's what I'm going to listen to but at the same time you can't pretend you don't listen to the fans when WrestleMania 40 happened. And we saw the switch in the title picture there which goes to show you the influence and the power that the people who are paying their money to go see this can have and I do think that's one of the beautiful things about the business is that the fans do have direct influence.

29:32It's just having the wherewithal to draw the distinction between people complaining and and the actual will of the supporters. I think that when we look at what's happening now with Sami Zayn becoming the world champion this is a perfect example of what are you and are talking about because the fans have. They root for everything and we'll get into how difficult it is to be a heel in 2026 in our next hour but for Sami Zayn just think about this not just one time but two time for a little champion I thought that the one off in which he was champion for nine days that was able to check a box for Sami Zayn like you know that Sami Zayn ever be able to get the big one I talked to him a year ago he goes I can't really see it but if it happens it'll be really cool because he didn't see himself as world champion had all these different iterations of Sami Zayn from a personality standpoint from a baby face to a heel. And so now it's not just one robin now he wins it again and again it's on Smackdown we didn't have to pay through ESPN unlimited to get this done we actually was able to sit down USA Network and obviously when you get a world title match on Smackdown

30:40you know it's very rare but then you see a title change and there's a lot of moving parts for Sami Zayn to win the championship but the point is those that that's a really cool moment for him he saw how emotionally was in the back like oh my god it's happened for me again not just once but twice good for Sami. Two time WWE champion Sami Zayn like think about that we do have thought that would happen I sure wouldn't and the way it happened I actually think it's kind of beautiful because he wanted and when he wanted even after he lost it I thought to myself you can always say Sami Zayn was WWE champion that will always be in his Wikipedia page you know when you search his name for you and I to discuss when we're talking about Sami Zayn's legacy. And when he lost it after nine days after he had that thing riding shotgun after he had it on the swing set and the joy that you felt emanating from your screen because Sami Zayn had that championship I was hurt for bro like I was hurt like I felt it in my loins and I think I felt it was too soon but that was the way I was supposed to feel Sami Zayn felt screwed he felt emotional which makes it even the more sweet that he felt it was.

31:55And he's captured it back and he's the champion again because I was certainly cheering when he got the three count on CM Punk on Friday night and I also think it makes sense for where they're headed not only does it does it keep that title picture chaotic and all these people have problems with Sami Zayn we know Kevin Owens and Goonther and now CM Punk have problems with Sami Zayn but when you do look ahead to Crown Jewel and some of these other events like did you want to do CM Punk and Roman again which was amazing. I'm not saying it WrestleMania but I don't know if the sequel would have had the same level of steam versus now you've got this curve ball and well assuming Roman reigns be spent on Monday which we'll get to later you've got the possibility of the honor areas against you know Roman reigns and or Sami Zayn and pent up but something different and that's to your point where I think the the idea of the the bit of the Molotov cocktail that they thrown into the booking makes it for a better ride. It's amazing what happens when you change a title right because with CM Punk is champion and by the way a good run for Chicago's own CM Punk to be world champion but now I feel like Robin that the title chase is clear you just mentioned some of the contenders for Sami Zayn's championship and again how long Sammy holes on the title I have no idea but the point is though is that would you just laid out so let's start with like Goonther.

33:19It continues to be in the video continues to you know have something to say he's a little bit more edgier used to be a guy just laugh at opponents hold a stomach and just laugh just point it guys like you you're going to take on me. There's no way you can beat me now he seems a little vulnerable is always in the back complaining to the general manager Nick Aldous then from there like Kevin Owens and we should bring about you should talk about this because he's part of the body of the match of Sami Zayn versus CM Punk. So did you notice that Kevin Owens you know he goes into the ring takes a shot at CM Punk and then there was a little smile on the part of Kevin Owens as if said oh well now he's going after his best friend Sami Zayn as well but did you notice like the little sneer on the face of Kevin Owens saying you know what I got a problem with both of you guys so whatever happens happens so that makes me wonder like is there a story or thread where Kevin Owens helps Sami Zayn and Sami's happy about it or is it like it just a crazy accident. A crazy accident on the part of Kevin Owens. Well I do think it was an accident in the moment but it was an accident he wasn't that upset about right.

34:23Yes. Clearly CM Punk is not his best friend but like Sami Zayn once was or still is some out you know their frenemies now I guess is I would put it but Kevin Owens was clearly targeted Sami Zayn hit CM Punk but I did notice that smart that you were referencing where he was like you know I messed up but I'll live with the result. So I thought that that was that was an interesting little little thing there again he was part of that but also there's a name like Johnny Gargano. How would you like to be able to make a check by just laying down in the back just laying down just not not rushing all the sudden now you've got juice now the sudden Johnny Gargano was back in the mix now will he be world every champion he will not be. The point is though is that he can always give you a great match Robyn so now his name is in the mix as well because now it's going to be Gargano and Zayn very soon. Yeah for anybody who was complaining about that angle or that bit right I don't know how long he was laying there for was a minute you know I did the after dark for Smackdown the night he woke up and I was like oh that this is when they chose because it's always interesting to me when they do these elongated angles and bits like when the trigger is pulled right.

35:34And it happened I was like oh just like no offense a random Smackdown it felt like at that at that you know pointing the calendar year but that has done a ton for Johnny Gargano. Otherwise he could really be lost in the shuffle right like he could he could be not on TV he could be in the mid card on forgettable matches but because he was laying there comatose for six months or whatever it was and CM Punk woke him up and he was going to be a champion. And he's got this attachment to Sammy Jane Zayn he feels like a player who matters he feels like you know it it somehow you like you said as an easy check to collect but it somehow elevated him I think as far as the hierarchy goes and the the recognizable he goes in the program. She noticed that Gargano was in his insisting to Sammy Zayn hey he was like double checking like hey hey yeah so if you win I'm going to get a title shot right yeah the same as it was born and off and you say no no just again if you win I'm going to get a title shot oh yeah yeah no problem and then now it's going to happen it's going to be hell the match when it was to get together.

36:42Looking at wouldn't given what we've been talking it wouldn't shock me I would be surprised there's a difference between surprised and shocked I would be surprised Johnny Gargano won the title I wouldn't be shocked now I would be shocked if he wanted me had it for you know more than a cup of coffee but I wouldn't at this point be completely blown away because they did invest a lot in that like they you know that though it didn't take much for him he played the role well because he's got a lot of money. He looked he looked like you know a crazed dead person when he was laying there so yeah he sold the bit well that's why you got to work with the material you get right and do the best with it but it made it so I can consider the possibility that Johnny Gargano wins the championship which before that happened before bro was planking on Smackdown for however long I wouldn't have thought that. Well I mean anything's possible now this hot shot in WWE but then this could be a fast track for Randy Orton so you know the in the back here way way in the background is when is Randy Orton going to be able to win the championship again and so does he need the championship actually know it's a funny thing about us as wrestling fans Robin because it's like if someone's over man they need to be the champion like we cover sports in a regular basis there's great players that we cover they're not champion.

38:05But we give them their claim and their flowers because hey they play at a high level so we give them their flowers right but but in this case with Randy Orton we know at some point he's going to win the championship again maybe in this calendar year of 2026 but the point is though like as is because of how the crowds behind him and how he has his battle with Cody Rhodes it's not necessary from the win championship tomorrow but that I mean if you're trying to give Randy the championship I'm imagine a match up in which he takes on. Sammy Zane the champion I feel like Randy would have the I think he would have the little bit of the upper hand in that one against Sammy yeah no I think that RKO would be coming from somewhere at that point we'd be ready for it you know but the whole picture has been made I think a little bit more intriguing because on the flip side of that let's say it was Cody Rhodes who still have the title right now yeah that feels like more of the same right and I feel like Cody Rhodes has become more intriguing as a result of this as well.

39:05Well where you're not quite sure what's next for him and he feels like he's got a little bit of extra spice and and sauce to what he's saying and and bite to to his promos and everything else but to your point yeah Randy Orton does seem prime for that and you know since he's come back he hasn't really had that run but he's the one who got the win against Cody at Sunday Night's Main event and yeah if you were telling me beforehand we're getting Sammy Zane and and Randy Orton at this point I would be predicting Randy Orton to have that the title and where would that put him with what's the total counties he's still a few back but it would put him in range of getting there. What is that the system was at 15 or 16 for Randy I mean that would be definitely because they don't forget the the hot potato championship run where everyone was champion every other month and so that number got up there to double digits that's 15 for him if he's able to win it. So that would be a lot so oh so funny about run up Cody Rhodes.

40:09So I asked this question here on the Sunday edition of bus stop adjusted I said this before I said how do you define Cody Rhodes if he's not the champion. See sometimes you know wrestlers can be able to be say you know what I'm QB1 I'm the guy on the face of the company I do all the autographs and all the median all that with Cody Rhodes without him being the champion. How do you define Cody Rhodes and that's the thing that he has to define as far as his character Robin so because we see a guy that's. As you can a mention here slowly kind of being unhinged a little bit yeah just a little bit. And there's a little bit of not necessarily heal but there's an edge that I've been looking for for Cody for a long time edge you can't just be the same guy kissing babies and chicken hands and always be that guy without edge. You're being attacked by Randy Orton people don't look at you the same because you're not champion so how do you change and so that's the big question for Cody if Cody took on same again you're right it would be some of the same but could it be a little bit more of an edge your Cody against Sammy that's what I want to see from Cody like who are you if you're not QB1.

41:16Well that that's what I think is interesting about Cody Rhodes right now is we don't know you know the chase for Cody Rhodes when he was going to finish the story that was compelling and then when he finished the story that was beautiful but it kind of felt like Avengers endgame of WWE right and then Cody has the title and has his Ron and everything and and there were some great matches there was some great moments in that but I don't feel it ever reach the peak of when he was going for that championship and if he was still the champion right now I don't want to be that's what I'm saying. Right now I don't think it would have that level of unpredictability or that level of excitement now we sit here and we go okay what does Cody Rhodes do and you have to be cautious about it because you just mentioned the kissing babies it cannot be overstated how difficult it is to be in that position and maintain that position because there is a very very short list of guys who's been able to be apple pie vanilla ice cream and still on top of that. So I think it's a great job and sustain that right like Hogan in the 90s John Cena in the arts but for the most part we've gotten that you know the attitude error changed the entire script on that and it's always been the guy with a little bit more edge so do you do Cody Rhodes with a twist or do you do Cody Rhodes with a turn and that is what we're sitting here watching because right now we're getting Cody Rhodes with a twist but when he says

42:44that's not a prediction it's a spoiler and when you see him toe the line more and more you do sit there wonder do we get Cody Rhodes with a turn and that homeland or Cody that everybody sort of been asking for and pleading for and that to me is what makes him compelling at the moment. Well you gave I mean those are two different directions twist versus turn you do that turn and if you don't do it right it looks like John Cena and obviously that failed that felt as flat as a plate of piss so that didn't work didn't work but a twist means more edge means that he does the things that we're not expecting which is good I like the unpredictability something out of nowhere right so I know is that if I have an opponent and I'm in a battle he talks about my dead dog it's we're fighting we're fighting man he loses Pharaoh and Randy Orton mentions that before they're met on say nights made event I would say something about that I would do something about that for sure the point that we made earlier about the W W title the W title has switched hands five times this year with four of the changes occurring on W W TV three times on Smackdown and once on Raw for CM Punk so this is what I mean about how do you do that.

44:03So this means that you must watch W W television and you have to check out the PLE's because you just never know that the McMahon era was built on you know anything happens in a wrestling federation anything could happen which which is meaning that there's a house show in your area there could be an angle or it could be a title change it will come to your country and all of a sudden in Santiago chili there could be a world championship change so Robin this is this is where you get away from the cookie cutter wrestling booking because as you and I grew up watching wrestling everything was on a PLE you look it for a title change everything's on pay per view you had to pay to see a title change now you put on Smackdown and Raw and you're rewarded with a title change. Or you're rewarded when you go to pay for a ticket on a non televised show or some kind of angle or some kind of fun so I think that I think triple H in this regard has it right because even though he has to serve masters to ESPN and to Netflix and to the USA Network and you know all these other places in between he's got serve massive everybody wants to have their piece of the pie.

45:21Hey could you put this person on this show can put this person on this show is going to answer the peacock he's got a lot of people to answer to but up but for once answering to the fans that hey away from all the business well all the networks that were on here's a title change or something different. Yeah and I wonder if that allows him to get more in his bag a little bit right like you know when WrestleMania season is around all the people you're answering to maybe a little bit more dialed in and focused and and wanting to be involved or wanting their opinion heard or whatever I wonder if he can get a little bit more in his bag during this time frame and it's also you know what's been an interesting wrinkle Jonathan is this has been I can't recall the last time we had a break like this between PLEs because usually it's been like I'm not sure if I can get back on this. Because usually it's been like a cadence month month month month summer slam was the beginning of August we haven't really had one since so they they've been able to turn and have some of these event moments on WDB programming or they you know turning Sunday nights main event into a de facto PLE but to your point I mean this even dates back to Drew McIntyre when he won that that happened on a smack down right like so you can you know now.

46:37Instead of sitting there and go okay that's cool that it's happening but we we know exactly what the outcome is going to be you can't really say that with a straight face anymore case in points and these catch the full three hours of bust it open every day of the week at 9 am Eastern on WWE radio on serious XM channel 156. Hey listeners Dave LaGrecca here loving busted open if you want to hear new episodes add free and get access to exclusive bonus content subscribe to serious XM podcast plus on Apple podcast or visit serious XM dot com slash podcast plus to start your free trial today.