The Esau McCaulley Podcast - Green Lantern and the Weight of Black Excellence

0:00Welcome to the ESA MAKALI podcast. I'm your host ESA MAKALI Tey. We're joined by Malcolm Foley. Malcolm, welcome back to the podcast. And we're also joined by our producer, Mike. I'm going to say that with enthusiasm. So everybody knows that I love you equally. Welcome producer Mike. Thanks. ESA. It's great to be here. Now, to our first story, what you're going to get to in the second deals with youth sports, which apparently is taking all of our money a little bit. But I thought before we jumped into youth sports, let me ask you two questions. First, did you play a sport in high school or elementary school in middle school whenever it was? And is your kid now playing that sport? Like, did you send your kid into your athletic endeavor? So Malcolm, were you an athlete? Okay. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, I was. So I played basketball probably from, I think it was kindergarten all through, all through middle school. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't play in high school or anything. But

1:01basketball is my sport. Did you have a jumper? Yes, sir. What night, tell me what's your game? Because you're not super tall. So you're like a guard, right? Kind of. Yeah. I mean, I was one of the people who I wasn't tall enough. I'm like, not skinny enough to be a guard, not tall enough of me in the post. So actually, I just, I just stopped playing basketball. Now, your kids are pretty, hold your hand. I'm a catcher. I'm a catcher. You guys. Okay. Hold your kids again. Six and three, almost four. So are they going to play basketball? So, so my youngest is kind of, well, she's, she's done a little bit of soccer and she, and she likes, and she likes that. We're going to get to that because soccer is a money pit. It's watch out, buddy. And I and I and doing no money. Okay. So that's what about you? You basketball. Yeah, I did basketball for most of my, my youth. And then I did some track. And I even did a football for a couple of years. Okay. The football was funny because I actually was a starter in sixth grade as like a defensive and a 90 pound defensive and bring him up the corner.

2:04And the only reason the only reason can I admit this here is during practice before the season started. I overheard the play. Yeah. That it was a sweep coming to my side. And it was like our backup running back. And so I lit him up because I knew exactly where the play was coming. She did. And the coaches were like, holy cow. Straight line. That was probably my only tackle for the whole season. You're entire, you're entire football career. It's, you like to do a ball check. I'm like middle school football. You like cheated. I rode the bench the next year. Yeah. The coaches. They sparring. And you couldn't hear those plays. So do your kids going to play football? No, hopefully not football. But our oldest is soccer right now. He does some basketball. He's just kind of trying different things right now. I play football. And for that particular reason. Well, well, they actually have flag football for for for girls now. But my sons have not played football. And I wouldn't want them to. Like the long term physical ran theory that is actually

3:05everybody is a lot. So tell us what's going on with like how these people are stealing all of my money. How much money am I losing? It put in my gear. The youth sports industry is now a 40 billion dollar. That's billion with a B industry. And the Denver Post did this big four part series on it. They gave examples of parents who were consistently spending like $10,000 a year. Because where it gets really expensive is like, you have your normal wreck leagues. But out of that have grown these travel leagues. And with these travel leagues, it's better coaching. But it's like, and so you're paying for that. But you're also paying for the actual travel costs of all these tournaments over the weekends. And it's becoming this like problem of parents not wanting, feeling a combination of FOMO, not wanting their their kid to miss out on these opportunities. But that the only way for the kid to really be, you kind of have to go all in and do these sports. You can't just casually do it. Or you're going to be left behind. So I'm going to complain. And if they're local listeners, maybe we can rise up together. So I have a kid who plays soccer. We're

4:06going to get to what it means for parents. But I didn't realize this. So when I was a kid, we play Reckley, you go, you get your jersey and you go to practice. They have mandatory like practice jerseys and practice shorts that are separate from the mandatory like uniforms you got to wear. There's a there's a book bag. Not just any book back and put a can fit a ball in it. They have their own like gear. And now you're paying. And in some parents, I'm not judging that these are not the local parents. These are parents and other cities and other places. I don't come. You'll let it me. You can also then pay for your kid to have private lessons. And so you have a kid who's taking private lessons, who's then playing for their league team and then who's playing for their school team. And I might there was there was a time when my kid and I cannot remember where it was. It might not have been Nebraska. It was somewhere overnight. And it was like we're going to this game and it's going to be a three day weekend. You have to pay this for the hotel. And I said,

5:10unless my kid is messy, I'm not paying. I'm not going overnight to watch a 10 year old play soccer. I'm like, and so like it is like you begin to have this fear or this is pressure that like, oh, your kids, the only kid with the like playing, like not having the right book back. And there is this real social pressure to buy the jersey of the same by the New Jersey. And there's a lot of money that are attached to all the things to go around the sport that is separate from the sport itself. And I think it has become and this is like the spiritual thing that we try. At least I want to get it is what does it actually mean to prepare your child for success? And we tend to think that especially those of us who didn't have these kinds of experiences, these kind of opportunities as a kid, but we don't want our kid to miss out. And so we're not necessarily reliving our past athletic glories to our children. We're trying to prevent our children from the disappointment that we felt in missing out on things. And I think we sometimes miss,

6:14remember how traumatic those things were. Do you ever feel that pressure to kind of provide things for your kids? Because everything else is going on around them and this happening in your neighborhood? Or that just out here in the West and suburb of Chicago? Yeah, no, I mean, I get the temptation, I get the temptation, but I also, but I also want to kind of really fervently resist it specifically like the fear of mouse, specifically the fear of missing out just in general. Just because I think one of the things that that also boils down to, this is like my recurring claim that everything boils down to a particular advice, but it boils down to in some ways a kind of greed and a kind of desire to accumulate particular kinds of experiences as though our lives are made up of the accumulation of experiences. Yeah. And and and I mean, I if this is it's funny because I talked to Paul Puts, who's a friend of mine, but also nationally recognized scholar of religion and sports. We should have had him along this

7:18part of the social. Right. And he's got he's got he's got thoughts about about youth sports, about youth sports too. And but especially kind of what it's what it's become. And and the way that I mean, so select in in church context, we think about the fact that like these a bunch of these travel sports, they'll like travel over over Sundays too. Oh, yes, they will. And and we've I think I think we've talked about this in another in another in another podcast too, but we're like, like what are family priorities? Like is this because this is this specifically is the kind of thing that parents are like, oh yeah, like we can we can we can misstert for this. I'm like, huh? Wait, what priorities? And I don't I tell my kids we don't misstert for sports. If you have something on Sunday morning, there's enough church. You're going to find something. If you got to go to mass, become Catholic for 20 minutes, you're going to do something. You're going to do something on Sunday. But but here's the other thing about it that I think at least

8:19is like somewhat I don't try to do something complaining about like other pants. It's parents are wonderful. And we're doing the best that we can. These sports like some which else lie to us about what it can do for our children. Oh, yeah, it's one of these things where the chances of you getting a scholarship are relatively small. And I say this to my wife like all the time, I actually hope a man who he might help me to listen to this part of the podcast. I actually I say the other often none of my kids are good enough to get a scholarship, but not good enough to get a scholarship everywhere. Because what tends to happen and this is why this is important. It's because they tend to go to the school that offers them the athletic scholarship even that isn't the best educational opportunity. Like the the the then diagram of kids who are good enough at sports to be able to choose their school in a way they're going to make them flourish long time long term is relatively small. So even if your kid gets like a scholarship or the

9:19scholarship isn't to the school of their choice, then that's going to end up putting them in a school that they're there only for sports. And then after the sports is done, if that school going to prepare them the best for their future. And so I think it it allows it allows us sometimes not to actually ask the question, what am I forming my child for? My child isn't going to go to pro. My child probably isn't going to go and be like for Michigan or the University of Notre Dame. They're probably going to play in high school or maybe they play in a smaller college. And if that is the case, then what role does sports play in their overall lives? And can we teach them the ability to have something like this? I can love it. I can be dedicated to it, but I can put it in perspective. And to me, sports is another one of those things that can have an outsized role in our lives. Yeah. You know one of the oh god. Well, my wife and I are struggling with this right now because I would argue for us, it's not even like we don't expect any of our kids to be very good at sports. Well, you're like, how do you? I mean, I told you. I'm like 64. I mean, your kids hit the genetic

10:21lottery. They should get there. Like I'm five. I'm six foot, but five or 11 on some days. And like I just I didn't even just like I want them to do sports because one like they enjoy sports. Two, I think sports it does develop really good disciplines and both physical and mental disciplines. And yet it feels like the rise of all these travel teams, it's raised the entry point. It's so high that if you don't participate in, if you don't go all in, it's hard to be a casual youth sports parent these days that you basically, my is well not even let them do it because they're just going to be riding the bench. And so it's it's frustrating. Like and it just feels like this is a common thing right now where every industry, whether it's tech and AI, whether it's it's Wall Street, you know, or youth sports. It's like, how do we maximize everything? And it's like, can we just be okay with not maximizing our kids and playing sports? Like can they? I sound so lame. But it's like, can they just have some fun, develop some really good skills, some good

11:22disciplines? And it's okay if we're not trying to maximize our investment in their athletic career. What should you be willing to sacrifice for that your kid can place youth sports? And I'm necessarily this question is like, there are people, there are people who are in 50, 60, 70,000 dollars. I mean, that's just literally impossible for us. Right. But like, are you willing to say, we can't go on a family vacation so that like Johnny could do travel soccer. Like what is, have you thought about like, okay, Malcolm's like, we're going to Italy. Malcolm, this is it. Let him ask you the question. Like when I think of like what we're willing to sacrifice for youth sports, it's our time and convenience. Like on the money side, I don't think youth sports should have like a huge impact on our bottom line. It's like, oh, I know during the week, I'm going to, we're going to be a taxi to our kids driving them to their practices and the different games or whatnot. It should take up a line in the budget. But if it's dramatically impacting what we are able to do as a family, I just think for sports when it's, it's become an outsize impact then on our lives.

12:25What about you? What are you willing to do? Do you have a limit? I think, I think we, I think we begin by being honest about what the goods, what the goods of sports are. And then, and then, and then yeah, I mean, we've got to do the work of counting, of counting the cost because the fact of the matter is that the cost is increasing. And so there is control and it's, and it's, and it's increasing because like there's an, there's an industry behind it. And that industry is, is that that industry is also very interested in using social pressure to keep you, to keep you in it. So like, so we have to be aware of that and not give in to, to that element of it. So if now, I'll go ahead, I'm going to say channel your buddy Paul and what is the, what is the good? Why should a Christian parent have their kids playing sports? What is the good of? Yeah. Um, I mean, so I think, uh, as Paul will say, like, you know, bodily discipline, um, avails a little bit, uh,

13:26as then like, like it is, it is valuable bodily, bodily discipline is actually, is actually a valuable thing. Um, it's important for me to, uh, beat my body, beat my body daily. Uh, but, but, but, but, but, and, and, and also, I mean, also there's the value of teamwork and all those kinds of things. But I, I also don't need to pay exorbitant amounts of money for that. Like the one of the, I, I also think that one of the reasons why there's been this lean into, um, lean into sports is because of and or, and erosion of other spaces that actually build discipline. So for example, if, if our, if our church communities were communities that actually emphasized in many ways, the building, the building of discipline, not just not just not, I mean, spiritual, mental and physical discipline. This is one of the reasons why, uh, why, why fasting is such a, is such a, is such a central practice of the church. Um, if that, if, if those things happen, then, then many of the goods that

14:30people think can only be found in sports, you would, people would be reminded. Actually, we've got, we got a fair amount of resources that we haven't actually tapped into. And, um, sorry, I, I thought you know, I think that you, you tapped on itself the hand made rule kind of in there. I think a lot of it is paying for community. One of the things that you, did, did you see a lot less are just kids just playing. Well, they used to be able to just go out and, you know, talking about the riots and helicopter parents and all of those other things. And so, as our neighborhoods become more isolated and the, like normal, you just preempts the five kids who are your age who live around you. It's kind of dissipated. The significant place of social formation in the development of friendship or happening, happening in sports, which has always been the case for those sports used to be free. Right. But now it's actually the cost of deep and lasting friendship. We've been enough collective time together because if you've seen, like, I can say

15:30a little bit about this. So if you do the wreck league version, maybe they practice every now and then and the games are kind of like here and there and they kind of come and go. But the travel teams are so there together so much. It's actually where community is developed. And so what you actually paying for, especially when the travel leagues become more important than the school team, you actually paying a high rate. Should your kids can have community together. And so the phomo from the parents, but this is legitimate. I'm not saying parents who are dropping this much money are wrong and bad parents. I understand why they're doing it. I'm frustrating that it takes spending this amount of money for my kids to have an access to community that I don't know where they're going to get otherwise. Maybe the terms. It's similar to like the rise and cost of childcare. It's something that we essentially outsource to babysitting, which ends up costing a lot of money, is something that if we actually invested in building deep committed communities,

16:31that's how childcare happens. There are people that we can trust with that. But there are a whole bunch of factors where there are so many things that we spend so much money on now that if we oriented our community building it in a different way, it could look different. You mean the church is the place where you can have genuine community and genuine assistance? Now watch this transition. I'm going to do. I got this. Some kids weren't all into sports. Some kids were in the comic books. Speaking of comic books, I was a comic book. I was under those double. I love comic books and I love sports. Have you been watching Green Lantern? Sure. I made me. I was skeptical because I got to be honest. I'm not a big DC comics guy and especially Green Lantern of all those superheroes I've never gotten into. But it's really good. I'm going to go on and say the first three episodes, episode four, be out, is out by the time

17:32this one comes out. It's the first three episodes, the best three episodes of television that I've seen in the last five years. Now episode four was good. Episode four was good too. But like episode three, episode three out of which we're in other place. I know people aren't into like everybody in this place isn't into comic books. We're not going to get into like the lore of Green Lantern. I want to talk about one of the things, like one of the driving plot points that's going on in this show that has had me in thrall. And I'll try to do as much as a brief of synopsis as I can. There's an older white guy who's super cocky, who's super confident, who is the Green Lantern. He was chosen as Green Lantern because it had initially went to a black guy. So in this show, you find out in the show that the way that you chose to become the Green Lantern is they come to you and they ask you a question. And the question is, are you afraid? They come to you by like in the middle of the night, putting you in this green bubble. It's terrifying. Yes. And that's when they ask, are you afraid? And the white guy who's a fighter pilot goes, no, I'm not afraid. He gets the Green Lantern.

18:35We each a second person they go to. Could they show it up in a black man's house? And if it's somebody pull up in a black man's house and ask you, are you afraid, the black guy's going to go, yes, because you never know what's a black man was someone's going to come and get you. And so one of the things that the show explores is the double standard required for black people to succeed. And the question that was posed to both people, although it was the same question, their different cultural experiences led to wildly different outcomes. And so when they go back to the later, they kind of go, hey, sorry about this. We didn't understand about this whole thing, about systematic and structured racism. And so that's why you spoke about fear black man, someone comes to your house in the middle of the night. The kinds of legacies and things they're going to come to you are so different. And so the first thing I want to talk about here is, and this is interesting. We talked about this before the episode. The way in which people from different cultures hear the exact same thing differently. And this is an exact issue that

19:40happens in the church. A word or sermon can come across one way to one community and another way to another community. I have an example. Malcolm, I just want to ask you about that part of the show in the different cultural experiences. Then we get the black excellence in a minute. What did you think about that particular theme they were exploring in it? So I especially like the fact like how I like how much that also explains John's own character because of the way that his parents raise him as a result of John. Let's just so John. John sir. Yeah. Explain to me his. So after the dad doesn't get chosen, they say, okay, you will get a second chance, basically through your son. And so they have to raise their young black son to be the next screen lantern. And he asked the weight of all of the expectations of his family, his people. And so he has to be almost perfect to get the job

20:41they should have rightfully been for that for his father. So he is now his parents are trying to through him realize something that was denied to him because of his father's race. And how they misunderstood it. And that idea of being raised with not only having to deal with your own expectations in which you might want to be, but the expectations of the black people who are the generation above you and they're putting these expectations upon you, shape the personality of John. That's what you want to talk about. Yeah. Now go ahead. Yeah. Well, and specifically his like, like fearlessness and emotional discipline that like that that that that like it presents itself as just a like he just presents as a rock just just all the all the time unaffected. It was just like broadly emotionally unaffected by stuff because that's because that's also because that's what he that's essentially what he was bred to bred to be. And so so yes, like that's just

21:46just like as a as a journey that's a really that's a really interesting kind of journey to journey so let me ask you this have you had to have that kind of emotional discipline maybe this is what this triggered me. It's just that sometimes as a black man walking through society trying to accomplish the goals maybe you're trying to like get a book out you're trying to do a podcast you're trying to lead a church you're trying to do these things and they're like these obstacles they're to put up in your in your way. And you know that if you lose your cool one time it could be like the end of your career one of the things that interesting is like the guy how who's the white character he breaks rules all the time. And John knows that he can't break the rules because if he breaks the rules the consequences are different. And so what you see in the kind of normally charming cocky everything's going to be right character contrast with the black character who has to be in control. I have felt like so many times where you see something happen and John have to swallow

22:50something. Yeah I was triggered to have many times I just say you know what I got to keep my job. So I don't know maybe maybe you just live free than I do but did you have did you did you ever see yourself with that part of that that part of John's character. Yeah and it can be it can especially be deeply frustrating. I mean just the just the fact that some people have more margin to make mistakes than then then then you do. Now you know now you can as I think I have I think mentally I was like I still I still tell myself well you know I still shouldn't make those mistakes in the first place. So there's so there's so there's the fact that like society may be more forgiving of you than it is of me but but but I but I also still like I also still want to hold myself to a really to a really high standard but there's but but that external but that added external pressure and the and the the kind of bitterness that can come from a resentment

23:54of that external that at an external pressure like that is that is that is that is that is a thing and something that I you know something that I reckon with but also you know it's it's not something I've control over unfortunately. If you're anything like me your daily media diet can feel overwhelming between endless headlines, parasocial online spaces and confusing trends. It's tough to process how any of it actually shapes our faith but there's plenty of beauty and meaning in our culture worth exploring if you have the right guides. That's why I love the subtext. A podcast hosted by my friends Lee Camp in Savannah Lock. Their dynamic is fantastic. Lee is a retired theology professor and a host of the popular podcast No Small and Defer but he literally doesn't own a smartphone and stays completely out of the loop of pop culture. Savannah on the other hand holds a master's in anabaptive studies but she's deeply into reality TV books and whatever

24:58is trending together they discuss what everyone is talking about from the Odyssey both the social media storm came before it hit theaters and the lessons from within the film itself to Nate Bargotsie's appearance as a USC fight at the White House and the selective moral lines we all draw. If you want to move past noise look beneath the surface of modern culture through the lens of your faith check it out. Sorry for the subtext wherever you get your podcast. Have you ever had a question about God the Bible of theology they felt too strange too complicated or maybe even too embarrassing to ask out loud it turns out kids have many of the same questions they're just too afraid to ask them. On Curesly Caitlin theologian Caitlin Chess takes the wonderfully honest and surprisingly complicated questions kids ask about God the Bible and the Christian faith and answer them in a way even grownups can understand questions like why the Christians raised their hands doing worship did Jesus know everything when he was a baby why the Scotty lot bad

25:58things to happen and of course to dogs go to heaven of course my dog Scotty's definitely going to be in heaven those questions they come from kids but they lead to questions every Christian can learn from drawing on scripture in the Christian tradition Caitlin takes each one seriously and makes even the most complicated theology clear engaging and surprisingly fun because a child life faith isn't afraid of questions it is more by curiosity wonder in the courage to keep asking listen to curiously Caitlin wherever you get your podcast follow today I've spoken about this a lot I remember I mean people who most people who know me kind of know the post John's I used to be way more like controlled and I do remember and I talked with a lot like basically before we're reading reading my black I was like trying to do everything correct because I was told that I remember

26:59this so clearly there are there were like there were very there were very few black people who were in major commentaries on books of the Bible so it's a New Testament scholarship and I kept saying you all should write you should public you should read more black writers there were there were no black people who had like these there were a few but they weren't a lot and so I said okay I'm gonna follow all the rules I'm gonna go to I'm gonna get good grades I'm gonna get my PhD I'm gonna write these born esoteric technical books on Pauling theology to show people that black people can do it any important part about this is I was performing someone else's script but I thought I was doing it for our people and I was like if I do all of this correct at the end of a day will respect me I will be known as one of like with the scholars you can do this kind of work but I realized that me living the life that they constructed for me to prove to them that black people could do stuff what's it gonna say to anybody free and so when I became myself was when I said I am simply not going to follow the rules set out for me so that I can get the ring I actually want to be the

28:03person whom God has called me to be in some of my writing and other career change and what you see to me is John in the middle of this journey he has followed every single rule to get to this place and he's now realizing that the game is he's gonna realize we don't know yet that the game is rigged in that process and this is the thing that you said they were so important it's not that I give up ethics it's not that I believe that my character or academic training doesn't matter it's like I have to learn how to bend those ethical values to the things that I that I actually think are writing good and true and just and watching someone go through that process and even watching how his parents look out of love kind of traumatize him right yeah oh yeah go ahead you go ahead you go ahead I want to talk about the parent kid relations okay go ahead talk about the parent because it's all semi related to our you sports conversation okay from earlier because you you painted a picture when you described all of it of like oh they just tried to raise this kid up

29:05and it's like but it was pretty much abusive I mean the things they put this kid through it's pretty dark and and pretty messed up and it just made me think about oh the number of times obviously not to that extreme but that I have I have tried in the way that I raise my kids that that I've caught myself like oh I'm processing my own a past trauma or past disappointment or or past missed opportunities expectations and I'm trying to work that through but through them which is not healthy and not good man so you just stumbled onto another and tied to he might he might get anybody to the cook up with this question this is like this is a really complicated question now in green marathon it's to the extreme with this question Malcolm maybe we could talk about this this is do have did a generation of black parents sometimes traumatize us out of love because they were afraid of what might happen to us so you go you go to place like my mom grew up

30:10in Alabama where there were sundown towns yeah where like white supremacy could actually kill you until some of the rules and things the people give to you to keep you safe and the fear that they have leads to them I'm not talking about what happens in green man don't think of the green acting as a metaphor what happens in parenting yeah sometimes you're so afraid of what society is going to do to your children in protecting them you traumatize them and because you're passing on your fears to them because they kind of live in a different world but they kind of don't and so there's certain things like at the extreme you're dignity they say all the time so like at the police do this that of the other you obey you just get home and so you create this sense of real fear because at any police stop it could be your life they give you and so and even we talk a lot about and I think we learn this a lot about like we're talking about like rape culture so you can talk up you can talk to girls about being modest and the idea is I'm trying to protect this person but

31:11the problem is that the girls body the problem is the predator and so we didn't always have I parents didn't always have all the tools because how can you survive something that's illogical why is the premises it is bottle at bottom and absurdity and so you're trying to train people imagine you're coming out of like my my not my parents my grandparents are coming out of the civil race movement and they're seeing the dogs and the water hoses well what how do you teach your kid how to survive that and then what is that kid pass along to you and say part of what it means for and then as parents we do the same things how do we break that cycle of passing along that trauma and so you see John who both loves his parents and understands his parents kind of messed them up and so I thought that was an interesting exploration even of like and not only that sorry that's like the physical part yeah the pressure of being the first person in your family who does something my sister was the first one to go to college I was the second person and so to carry with you the

32:14weight of your community there's a lot going on there I don't know if any of those things that's a lot I mean you know and it's it's I I mentioned this actually in the in the anti-grid gospel of like how how I teach like how I teach how I will teach my girls about race yeah because like because even even when I you know as a as an active encouragement like this this like I nameless in the book like as an active encouragement when when when when my daughter was maybe like four or five I I refer to her as a as a as a as a beautiful smart smart black girl and she's like I'm not I'm not black I'm I'm brown and and like and part of it and part of it was you know like I was I was beginning to inaugurate her into essentially racialized thinking because like black I mean because it's it's like and and race in itself is a made up thing but it has but it but it does have so but it does have I mean it it has significant social effects but that

33:19but even that one moment was also a reminder oh yeah the only things that she kind of internalizes about race are going to be the things that she has taught the things that she's taught about it and and and and where that's going to happen is at home so so so so so am I going to teach her that this is a thing that ought to manifest itself in in fear and this need to constantly defend yourself and things like that or am I going to press in you a a a a a a a a a a secure a God secured understanding of your humanity that you are then willing to that that you are then willing to assert and defend in every space that you're in understanding that God is the one who protects you and understanding that that doesn't that that doesn't mean that you don't operate in the in the world wisely but that but that you are this and this and this and this is why they're like the the the the the man without fear stuff of green of green lantern is so it's so interesting

34:20specifically to have a black man and this and and this is why like in the in the comics it's like really important that John Stewart is is black because because all of this all of this kind of kind of pops up um but yeah I mean what it what it looks like like I also want to be able to like I want to be able to raise my kids to be people who don't have that fear uh not in a not in a crippling way that they're as I said able to able to walk through the world wisely but that they're not crippled by fear even though we have a history that is profoundly profoundly violent yeah like violence against black people is one of the most significant elements of American history and and and and and and the thing that violence does is it foments fear um and so yeah so that's just I'm still processing it you know you have this um you had those little like um quotes to open up chapters in your book yeah um there's this interview that I saw with Nina Simone and they ask

35:24they ask Nina Simone like what is freedom is he pauses for a second and she goes freedom is no fear and she was talking about what does it actually mean to be like a liberated black person it is to like does not be afraid and so and so what does it mean is it is it even responsible maybe this one of the things is getting to is it responsible to raise a black kid without any fear I mean like to me I didn't I didn't think I didn't think that Green Lantern is doing a whole lot of stuff and especially and maybe this is the other one because I actually don't think and I want to I know we got to get past this I don't think that how how Jordan is racist he's not at all not at all at least so far as we can tell but when you see him contrasted with John Stuart the white privilege is just showing yeah because he just so used to things going his way it's like yeah yeah and what he's almost like what's the guy's name in Star Wars the um the guy with the jacket um

36:24a Han Solo like he's like Han Solo but Han Solo actually has a black guy who doesn't get to be Han Solo right beside him and so what is normally and I love how Jordan the character like this cocky free I'm just gonna I'm gonna swagger my way through everything it reads so much differently when you see someone who can't swagger through it that's speaking of all of this stuff and maybe had this mate ruined otherwise the conversation I was on the internet and I saw that um Donald Trump saw the the White House right it was the White House um the White House um social media put out like a meme of like basically the president with the green lantern like me like ring and he's using the ring to build a wall and it reminded me of something that I actually think that it's almost I want to put this is it's uncircling as possible this sometimes it feels like the White House social media team

37:28wants to suck the fun out of everything and because even this has happened not just with this this episode and with this thing he did the exact same thing a spider man came out there was like a spider man picture there was somehow related to something when Drake put out an album um called Iceman he used it till like do stuff with ice I think he's done it with um Odyssey and the reason these things are important is because although these shows have political and cultural commentary that are important they're actually not about the exactly the present moment in the current administration and there are times you say you know what I want to do I want to watch Spider-Man I want to watch Superman I want to watch the green lantern and the president the president infusing himself into the situation to me is an example of his attempt to make everything about him because now requires people to kind it makes it requires the um people who make this show to go we don't stand for this it takes what could be a happy cultural moment

38:29and sucks it back down into the political mud and it's almost the attempt to make even completely innocuous pop culture elements political and to me it's like as soon as I enjoy something I see a meme and he takes 5% of the fun out of it huh I just think I mean I agree with you and I think part of this is just it's not that he's intentionally trying to make everything political I would say he's trying to make everything about himself because he's so egotistical and then he is completely unsurious and so I put this at the same level as renaming Lake Ontario to Lake America where it's just like it's the most absurd thing on the one hand you could argue it's harmless what who cares that he makes a spoof of him as green lantern who cares that he renames Lake Ontario later Lake America that's not harmfully impacting anyone and yet it's like right but there's no substance to his presidency or what substance there is is pretty problematic we're still in a war in the middle east we can't get out of gas prices are still absurdly high

39:32inflation is is growing and it's like I just look when he does stuff like this it's like yeah he's throwing red meat to his base because it's the only thing he has to to run on because everything that he actually run on ran on lowering prices not getting involved in wars this at the other it's an utter failure right now welcome yeah I mean I feel like there comes to a point this is this is the way I think about social media general like just like all we want us for you to do your job like just do your job we don't we don't need you to be everything at all times to everybody just do what the president is supposed to do like do those things yeah you don't have to be green lantern and spider man and super red all that's not just like be the president of the United States and do he doesn't know how he's bad I guess what I'm saying is you don't feel like there's an omnipresence in something that has nothing to do with politics at all and he just steals it to not even make a coherent point just to get attention and it feels like

40:39I'm serious it tastes fun like I was in the back I wanted to see like I'm not gonna like watch less green lantern but I'm like why do you why are you in green lantern like there's nothing to do with you and it does feel like we have this maybe this quasi joke I do it here too we're like I tell my kids I'm such a good dad that on their birthday they should get me presents and it's like a running joke that I make their birthday about me and Trump does it but he's serious but he's serious I think he actually believes all right but I think he says I think he says hey too many people are watching green lantern they should be thinking about me right well let me ask you this he saw because I do hear part of what in your argument I actually hear similar arguments that some white conservatives would make about athletes who get political that there's a bit of this like you're telling Trump hey just stick do your job and don't do this other stuff similar to how white

41:42conservatives would say to pro athletes hey I don't care what your political views are stick to sports do your job and I want to just watch sports and not think about all this other stuff so how are they different well okay yeah I'll say something I'm not saying that Trump can't have political opinions I'm saying that when there is content that already exists separate from him and he infuses himself in it right that what you're talking about if the green lantern wants to say hey as I was playing how a joy and I was thinking about you know that's a totally different in other words I'm not asking for people who are in careers to stay in their careers I'm speaking of him a procreating content that he's not a part of the athletes themselves are playing basketball in LeBron or or whoever they play the sport if they talk about like during the actual activity they play the sport if they want to have their comments before I mean after like in the press conference that's actually fair it's no different than like I have a doctor as long as you do the surgery you can walk out of the surgery

42:46and say like you know there's medical injustice and such as make sure make sure my legs fixed but in my legs fix you can say what you want so I'm not saying that people have to stay within their genre I am saying he actually has all kinds of things upon which he can like up he can actually govern right and so I'm asking like govern and matter of fact it's the same thing goes to like the sports they're giving out the World Cup thing and he wants to be there that is him appropriating someone else's content for his own gratification versus someone who is saying while I'm engaging in this sport I'm gonna use my platform for good and once again I do not think that my support of a I will support any athlete or actor who has an informed opinion now if you gonna have a take like read a book you know like know your takes but if you don't have a take I mean like I'm not a politician but I have take some politics and so if I want to have that for me

43:48I don't think it's unfair to everyone else it's fascinating to have this like this particular example of a viciousness where and I mean that in the in the in the classical sense of like this is what greed looks like just like just unfettered like everything is mine and everything and everything is about me like this just it's we like we're just see we were just actually seeing it in just a raw raw form it was like it'd be like if I'm gonna let every single and choose a thought with every single time I mean I'm sorry I'm gonna say this and I like we had to end this up in a in a in a hard way and I want you to the limited way when he was saying this he's completely unfettered like I have all kinds of I don't do that I kind of think oh this might even now but like you got to respect the fact that this brother says I'm gonna make literally every thing about me and I'm

44:52not even gonna pretend I have any empathy I hate all my enemies like I'm just gonna be completely myself and I don't care about the consequences of it because I've done the math and the people who I lose from being like this I'm not enough to affect my life and so you can at least you I will say this this one thing they would they you'll be able to say about the Trump presidency it was the presidency he wanted and what we get is exactly what he wanted to produce he wanted to have everyone pay attention to him we're now paying attention the question is what is it that we see when we look at it but we'll probably stop there can I just say as we wrap up what my favorite part of green lantern was so far my favorite moment was when minor spoiler there there is an alien who is disguised as a human and green lantern how thinks he is an alien and no one else thinks he is he's like give me five minutes in a room with him and I'll prove to you he's an alien and he starts asking him questions first about Nebraska football but the guy knew all the answers yeah and he's like all right what where did Harry Potter go to school and I was like what are you talking about he's like yes he

45:53you don't know all this stuff he's like I bet you don't even know who Barack Obama is he goes I know who Obama is he's president in the United States and the guy's like you live in rural Nebraska and everyone in the room was like he isn't the only one he's the first black president you know the brass us the only tech this episode we started off talking about youth sports and really at the heart it was our desire to provide for our kids these kinds of experiences sometimes their experiences that we ourselves didn't get and we're trying to make up for those and one of the things that we think that has become really problematic is that community and real formation has become a has been priced out for so many families and maybe we talked about the place where the church could be a place where you can actually that community that you don't have to pay for we then spent a lot of time and hopefully people allow us to do this to talk about green Latin the best show on television and it relates once again to at least a significant thread of the show

46:55is parents black parents in particular who missed out on something because of really structural cultural issues and now they're trying to raise their son to not miss that and we talked about the weight of black excellence and black perfection in the ways in which you can sometimes push children forward and sometimes it can unintentionally do harm we try to reflect on what does it actually mean to be a person who walks through society with this idea that there's two separate stand two separate sense of standards and if I make a mistake the consequences of my stake mistake and it must be greater in its rear that you actually get to me something set in an otherwise entertaining not overly preaching show didn't explore its issues of race justice and excellence and I think one of the things that we could at least take from that as a church is that we can actually begin to handle and ask complex questions it is different to raise black children with in this society not

47:56necessarily having them full of fear but the consequences and the stakes of mistakes for black children and white children may not always be the same in that difference in expectations and that difference in cultural context ultimately to misunderstanding and part of what it means to be the church and to be community to be in communities actually say how can I deeply truly honestly listening to understand about what it means to be a parent especially a black parent what does it actually mean to be in a society with the expectations of people are so high that's been the summer calling podcast thank you so much for listening a dendom a key example of that is how Barack Obama was treated and imagine for 30 seconds I know we've been saying this for 20 years can you imagine like if the Obama presidency had the kind of meanification of stuff and the kind of oh my goodness but that's needed to hear nor they were into the podcast thank you for listening to e-summer calling podcast we'll see y'all next week the e-summer calling podcast the production

48:56of Holypost Media produced by Mike Stalo straight low if you know now you know that is it by set govette like a corvette music by Rob nor make sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcast and leave her review so more people can find it see you next time I'm out