The Flagship: Bill Dundee, Sunday Night's Main Event, The New Kliq & more!

0:00Hi, I'm Andrew Rich. And if you're like me, you look at the state of modern wrestling discourse and think, wow, what a cesspool! That's why I'm here to tell you about music of the Matt Remix. That's right, your favorite wrestling music podcast is back with a new format, where I bring on a guest and we play songs related to wrestling themed topics. It could be a wrestling reference, a wrestling concept, a wrestling pun, things of that nature. Now you might be saying, Andrew, that is a very, very tenuous connection to pro wrestling on a wrestling podcast network. Is this just an excuse to hang out with your friends and talk about music and ignore the rest of the wrestling landscape? Yes, yes it is. So listen to Music of the Matt Remix on the Voices of Wrestling Podcast Network, available on Apple, Spotify or your podcast player of choice.

1:00This podcast is a member of the Voices of Wrestling Podcast Network. Visit VoicesOfRestling.com to hear the rest of our great podcasts as well as show reviews, watch us. And we are live on the flagship podcast. I am rich.

2:01No Jolanda this week though, his beloved Rams are playing season opener Thursday night football, the most hated team in the NFL. Maybe I don't know. We'll discuss that next time when we get with Joe. But that's okay because we have two very special guests helping me out on this week's show. Later in the show, Jesse Collins of the Gentleman's Wrestling Podcast will hop on to recap and review Sunday Night's Main Event from WWE. We'll talk about something we've wanted to talk about for a while as well. The age issue in pro wrestling and why nobody is young, everybody gets pushed and everybody old constantly gets pushed. And Chris, you could probably talk about that too. If we want to end up, because I know you talk about it and that gets us right to our first guest on this part of the flagship. It is Chris Zellner of Between the Sheets and the Center Stage Chronicles. Chris, what's going on, man? Joe's been, I mean Joe, rich has been way too long. I got Joe on my mind because I'm watching the 49ers Rams game too as we record this. And believe me, if I, you know, when the early days between the Sheets, we recorded on Sundays. And I invite the first couple of years.

3:04You know, during NFL season, it sucked. That's not fun. Because you recorded everything in one day. Yeah, you're doing six, seven hours in one day. Yeah, so I was missing all the NFL games. So I know how that ends for Joe. But yeah, so man, it's been a long time since I've been on with you. And yeah, this is going to be a sad topic that we'll talk about. But it's great to be back on on this podcast. Yeah, it's been a long time coming. We'll definitely have to hit you up for Hall of Fame season pretty soon as well. But yeah, we're getting there. And just shooting the shit. We need to do that more often because, and that's what we're going to talk about the life and career of Build Undy here in a moment. That's the big reason why I brought you on here. Obviously, Build Undy passes away a couple days ago. So we'll talk about his life, his career, getting the details about all that. But before we do that, this is a topic that I have wanted to talk about for a long time with you. We're going to talk about it all the time. And we always say, you know what, we shouldn't talk about this.

4:04We should wait until Chris is here. Because there's one person on earth that also cares, I think, that's like a wrestling fan that cares enough about this topic to have it be, you know, be discussed at length. And you're finally here. So I think it's a good time to finally do it. And that is, whoomp there it is versus whoops there it is. Right? Aren't you the perfect person for your guy here? Yes, I am the perfect person. We always talk about it. Because, yeah, go, what do you know about the whoop there it is and whoop there it is on controversy? I said this, this, this goes to eight nights and tip great of my schooling. Starting in 92 and see the starting 92 was eight town players had a song called eight town drop which came out in 92, which that was the very first instant of whoop there it

5:04is. W O O P. Yes. Okay. So that's the original. That's what started. That's what was playing on the Atlanta radio. That was in the club scene. All right. Then tag team came out also, you know, from Atlanta with whoop there it is W O O M P. All right. But that song, it was out for a while before it went big. Yes. Recorded in in 1992, I think late 1992 but didn't get like fully released and big until the next year, basically, right? Wasn't it like May or June of 1993, the summer of 93 really popular? Wait, really? Yes, summer night three going in 94. But also you had 95 South based out of Jacksonville who had their version whoop there. There it is W O O T, which of the three songs was my favorite. And the one that definitely, you know, personified that whole movement because the music was

6:11so club friendly. Yeah. It was such it was like a faster, faster beat and everything and just the way it was done by the Quad City DJs, which was, you know, Jacksonville had their own scene at that time. Yeah. 69 boys Quad City DJs. 69 boys. It's 69 boys and 95 South were all together. 69 boys and Tutsi Roll and Kitty Kitty and stuff like that. And they would come up here. They would perform up here. So they had the gravitas of the local stuff too from the South Metro Atlanta and into Atlanta and into making and stuff like that. So they had that going on. So they got over with us more than the others did, but then tag team just blew up with their sanitary version of it. They had the kid friendly version. They tell yeah. Definitely. They had the kid friendly version that was able to go through. But I mean, all three, you know, either or it's just a personal preference, but for

7:14me, if that era, it was definitely 95 South. There it is. But eight time players is right there. You know, because they were the originators. They were the originators. And see, that's what was that was out when center stage, just fans of center stage were starting to really chanted. Yeah. That was first. Yes. And that's why I want to talk to you about this as well because there was this people watch wrestling of this era that weren't around in this era. People that watch wrestling and just started, you know, weren't weren't following hip-hop in the 90s weren't, you know, aren't aware of this that will hear this chant. And I'll see like reviews, especially you'll get like British reviewers or whatever. And they're like, the fans are chanting something. I don't know what they're chanting or whatever. But like you said, it's center stage and almost always in W.C. Show that that era, that became the thing, the chant that you would hear for everything. It wasn't just, you know, it meant on a mission in Donut, we have to kind of make it into their thing and kind of play it up or whatever. But they were the tag team version. Exactly right. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Right.

8:15But like, yeah, the fans chanting that they would chant it for everything. Like I would do a cool move and they would chant it. Something that happened, they would chant it. Yeah. A heel would get beat up and they would chant it. It was, it was just ubiquitous at center stage and at many arenas at that time. Yeah, because, you know, at that time W.C. W is heavily taping in Georgia and, you know, in the South. So it's a thing. And in W.C. W is in particular, you got two cool Scorpio who became like a god among, you know, fans at the time, you know, the Black fans at center stage. Colin Heat coming in and later 93. He had Rod Simmons there, ice train. But they would do it for, you know, the white wrestlers, too, they picked up. We're cool. Memphis, Memphis studio stuff picked it up. Now Memphis, you know, they were the ones that, you know, they were chanting get buck. Early like 1990, you know, before 36, Mafia made that, you know, a thing. That was a thing in Memphis for years and they were chanting, you know, get boy, get boy. Yeah. I mean, that was a thing that they would chant.

9:16So he had these regional things and there it is. Started as an Atlanta regional thing, but it blew up and became nationwide. And then yes, once tag team started getting big, that's when Oscar, Melon, a mission took it to the WF and you had Vincent Angle. Oh, look there it is. You know what I mean? I mean, it's just, get down. You know, it's just, you know, I mean, it was a phenomenon. But yes, there it is. To me is the one I still listen to to this day, you know, as my, and there's a certain mix version that is the best version that I like the most. Yeah, but we always, we always laugh about how, you know, that chant was everywhere for like two years. Oh, yes. And then one day it just stopped and it never came back and it's just one day everybody looked around and said, nope, we're not chanting that again because as quickly as it, it was everywhere, it was gone immediately. Well, that's that's pop culture. Yeah, that's pop culture, you know, trends come and go and you move on to the next one. Remember six seven? The thing that we thought would never go away and then it went away like, well, you know,

10:19wrap it around in some cases. Yeah, old white people. But yeah, I mean, that is just that the way that stuff goes. I mean, that door we see, it's been that's been for the beginning of time. You know, it's pop culture became a thing. I mean, look in the 70s, you have pet rocks and shit like that. 80s, you had the 80s stuff. And each decade has its stinks, you know, it just does. And there it is. It was a 90s thing for a couple of years for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, fantastic stuff. And then also to throw another thing in the ring, I forgot about this. This and this dash and dad, they did. Well, here in it. Yeah, this and that they were based out of Orlando. Okay. So they were, but they were, well, though, they were part of that crew though, but they were Orlando. And oh, but, but yeah, this and that. Oh, yeah, I love this and that. Yeah, they were great too. They would come up as well. I mean, yeah, those are those are great times, man. We had a very small station in a small town near me that would they had they would run

11:25the local like American legions and we in my little town, we have a club here. And that's first time I saw outcast. I saw outcast. So what year were we talking here? 94. Wow. Wow. So this is when players ball was just really getting getting out there. And I saw outcast in a venue that got condemned like a year or so later. That's perfect. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah, we have places like the, I mean, it's like places like the palace, the crow's nest, the rainbow, American legions. I mean, places like this, you know, where people that I mean, I was, I was living in, I was not supposed to be in that place because it was 18 and older, but I was, I was 14, 15 getting that because I looked older than what I was and they didn't get shit. So I mean, it was wild times. I saw, I saw six and I was an I5 South, you know, in one of those places. So yeah, I mean, it was fun times, man.

12:26It was, it was fun times. I missed those days a lot. 30 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had my own, you know, run with, you know, me for 90s. I was a little too young. I was listening to all this stuff at this time. Like that, that when I first started listening to music, like for some, like I listened to hip hop was the first thing I actually listened to, like on my own, obviously not, you know, driving in the car with my dad or whatever, listen to whatever the hell he would listen to. But like, yeah, it was for me. It was, you know, coolio and two-pock and biggie. And that was, that's how I first started liking my own music. I was a bit keyed sweat fan for some reason as like, oh god. I don't know why. Yeah. I'm sure my parents were like, what the fuck? Like I remember going to a coconut's records. I don't know if you guys had coconuts records or whatever. Nobody had coconuts. Yeah. I'll tell you this real quick, two of your local ads got big down here. And actually, we come down here at times, crucial conflict. Do or die. And do or die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what they, even though we're Chicago, they were very southern. Yeah, they were southern coded.

13:26They felt like a southern, more than they felt like a Chicago group for sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they got over down here. Yeah, no, yeah. And that's exactly the crew I was going to bring up is that I was a little too young to get in on those guys. But then I was, you know, the underground scene in the early 2000s was when I really was able to start going to places and listening to stuff. Now those guys had, you know, kind of moved out of the scene. But I mean, I was seeing very early Kanye West. And I remember I always tell this story in my high school newspaper. I wanted to write an article about Kanye West because I like had gotten in touch with some of his guy. And I was like, I can interview this up and coming rapper called Kanye West. And I remember my editor being like, no one knows who that guy is. Nobody cares. And I bring that up to her all the time. I got every couple of years. I email her and I said, everyone eats all of me that nobody knows who that is and no one's going to care at all. I mean, this is like 2002 or whatever. And I'm like, he's working his way up. And they're like, okay. All right. And I'm like, we can add an high school, like, in our high school paper, I can interview with this guy and they're like, I don't want to care about that.

14:27So, yeah. But no, that's good times. And now I listen to absolutely zero hip hop. And it makes me very sad. I listen to old, but I don't, the new, it's a young man's game and I'm out of it. And I just speak for yourself. I love the, I love, I love the new stuff. Oh, do you have good for you? I'm glad. I have tapped out, but I'm glad you're sticking with it. Well, I understand, but you know, it's kind of like me and wrestling. You know, I can't, I can't grade it like I, I can't judge it. I can't grade it like I do wrestling from the 80s, 90s and what have you. You got, you got, you got going in context and it's a different context now. And it's mainly about, definitely mainly about the beats. It's not about, it's not about the lyrics. Oh, no. It's about the beats, especially in the South. You know, I mean, and there's some really good lyricists and stuff. It's just different. It's a whole different style than what, you know, we came up on. But, yeah, it's just, it's that I enjoy for sure. Yeah, I mean, definitely, I mean, more often than not, most of the stuff I listen to these days are definitely 80s, 90s, 2000s, 70s, anything, you know, older stuff for sure.

15:32I like how I need stuff too. So it just keeps me fresh. You got it. Yeah, I've gone on to other genres. Like I listen to new music of other genres, but yeah, hip hop, I've tried and I play, I play a lot of basketball and the kids will come with speakers or whatever. And I'm just listening. What is this? What are we doing? It's a different world. I'm like, this isn't what you look. Okay, all right. Good for you guys. You know, it's it's a different world. It is definitely. And that's why I said to you, I'm man's game. Like, if you guys are enjoying it, good for you guys. I'm glad, but I'm going to I luckily I have 40 years of other stuff to listen to in other genres. Which is fine. It's all right. It's all right. I'm not going to be the cramudge. I'm not going to get mad about it. I'm just going to move on and let it happen. Yeah. My playlist I can go from, you know, stuff from the 40s. You know, I'm talking about like Glenn Miller and you know, stuff like that. Even your early Sinatra and you know, jazz and the 20s blues from the 20s. And I stuff stuff from the, you know, now. So I got stuff spent in the 100 years. Oh, yeah.

16:32Yeah, yeah. I try to do that too. I have serious in my car and like every channel I have is like a wildly different channel. Because I don't do I don't want to listen to, you know, five different channels that are nine, you know, 90s and 90s alternative and 90s hip hop. I like, no, I go for yeah, I have a 50s channel. I got a 70s channel. I got studio 54. I got 90s on nine. You got to, you know, you got to change it up. You got to have as many different ways to possibly have. Variety just fights a lot. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So I'm going to do the plugs now because I'm going to forget and we're going to get into this topic and I'm going to, I'm going to get to do it. So I'm going to do it right now. Chris Elner is one half of between the sheets, patreon.com slash between the sheets. Also on free podcast feeds as well, between the sheets. You guys are doing a great Patreon series though. That's why I want to plug first and foremost. And then we'll talk about the free feed here in a minute. But Patreon series you guys are doing right now all about WECW, the early early days of WECW and I love the first episode because you guys start off with a September 2002. Dave Meltzer write up about it. And I was like, what the hell?

17:33And it's like basically Dave being like, Hey, if ECW ever comes back, here's what the scenario would be. And like, to a tee, it's like that's exactly what the scenario was four years later. I went to Vince McMahon on a flight to Europe just decided, God damn it. We got to bring ECW back. So I don't know why he decided they had to bring ECW back, but they did. And you guys are covered all that. Yeah, money. Yeah, that's a good way. Merchardine, that's money. That fucking DVD man that we talk about ubiquities. There it is. That rise and fall of ECW DVD was everybody I knew own that thing. Everybody. Everyone that was a wrestling fan owned that fucking DVD. It was huge. Everybody the first day. Yeah. It was at best by when they opened. Why am I doing like, I don't have to do this, but I wanted it so badly. And it was great. And I ran home and played it and I fucking loved it. I mean, there's a little loose at the facts, but that's all right. Oh, yeah. Cool. Well, you documentary. So it's wrestling. But since we're doing this live, I'll go ahead and plug the show that comes out tomorrow. Yeah. There it is.

18:33Offeriting. Part two. And I thought that maybe we might get into the pay-per-view possibly. Maybe definitely would get into the TV special that was raw or smacked at the best ECW. No, there's so much other shit that happened before then that would be on part three. But part two gets more into the stuff that's going on in the build up. Tommy Dreamer gains and loses power in a Marley 2 week. So what's all about that? We'll have, we're planning to guess a game of who's talking to the newsletters by what we read. And we pretty much confirm it's Naila wrong the head of who's saying what to who. You guys are pretty good at that. And usually I'm nodding along as well as you guys are like, yeah, this guy, this is definitely that guy. Oh, there's some obvious. You read enough newsletters. You can figure it out pretty quickly. Yeah, more on what talent's going to be in. We'll have talk about contracts.

19:34We'll have Dave Meltzer in one and back to back sentences in one paragraph saying that a network will sci fi is a candidate against get ECW in the next sentence saying they've already made a commitment. So we'll have that then we'll have what the original plans were for sci fi that changes pretty much immediately. We'll get to the synergy that sci fi wants in the ECW. I'll tell you what they offer on their networks. And yeah, I mean, it's just it's just a lot of that type of stuff. How you know what the original touring schedule is going to look like depending on the European tours for ECW, which doesn't happen. I mean, it's just a lot of a lot of the logistics shit and it's really good stuff as we go week to week. And I think this one actually covers three weeks. The first one I'd like to and the 2002 stuff. But yeah, part three will definitely get into what happens on the head to head and the

20:41pay-per-view. And basically, let's talk about what should have happened in some cases on part two, which should be the case. So yeah, it's really good stuff. Fight all of them up, get you access to that and more at patreon.com slash twin issues. We've done almost 10 complete years of the Patreon now. Wow. So we got a ton of audio content. Yeah, we got a ton of audio content up there, man. All the Paul Heyman's centric stuff is required listening. The def.wcw stuff. If you guys have never heard that, there's free. If you want the if you want previews of the Patreon and the full page some full Patreon shows for free. There are some on the main between the sheets feed on our Red Circle page that we've uploaded over the years to give people a taste of what the Patreon shows are like. So go check it out. If you've never heard of, let's go check it out on our Red Circle page.

21:45And yeah, because we got a lot of cool stuff there. And we got great ideas for future Patreon shows. We're going strong, man. And yeah, so definitely good stuff. Just like our main show. Good stuff there all the time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, in the main show between the sheets, obviously you can find on your free podcast feeds. You get the weekly between the sheets you guys are now finally back after the hiatus, which you know, hey, I've been there before. There's been times where it's been really tough to do a show. And once you get off the horse, it's really hard to get back on, especially with what you guys do. Well, you know, we're not young anymore. No, I mean, I'm 47. Bix will be 42 minutes birthday this year. So I mean, we're not young guys anymore. And you know, when things happen, but we're back. And we're back, you know, and we're back full force. And yeah, it's great to be back. I mean, we basically took five months off of the main show. We did some Patreon stuff, but we took five months off the main show.

22:48And yeah, we're back like we've never left. And the current show that's out right now, we have a JD Oliva. Yeah. So people listen to this. So probably while we're half one half of the Mike and JD show rest in peace, rest in peace, Mike and JD. Yeah, which Bix, Bix goes after Mike Gilbert on that on the show. I heard him. I mean, so guys of many, what's he doing watching TNA earnestly? That's the same behavior. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, on the 89 show, we had the very first promo by a young Steve Williams. And Dallas, the future Stone Cold. So we would play that. We got Steve Beverly at Matt Watch talking to Jeff Carr from Turner Broadcasting. Only stuff you would get in that watch about preemissions of World Championship Wrestling. We got, I mean, Sid and Scott Hall having won the worst matches around on WCW. We got Jerry Lawler and Buddy Landel and a limousine. That's a whole saga of that. The birth of American Gladiators. That's a really fun show. And that's the one that's out now.

23:49And then the one that's coming out this Monday will be about 1998 and fall brawl 98 and a WCW section that is classic for that show. Plus the thunder that's a place before that show, which features some insanity that also the debut of Ralphus on that show. And a very interesting story about these WCW Saturday Night tapings and mobile Alabama. The Tuesday before fall brawl and how they totally just screwed over those fans. And we got that and we got, you know, we had a Saturday Night Raw during our way featuring the battle of DX. DX and kind of tied DX and. Oh god, yeah, that's really, I forgot that even happened. Yeah, yeah, that's what we got that we got all kinds of stuff in Japan, Mexico, you know, the US Indies. So really fun show between the sheets on the main feed. So yeah, absolutely.

24:50If you like what Joe and I do, you're going to love between the sheets. So make sure if you're not already a between the sheets listener, subscribe to them on the free podcast feed. Between the sheets and then patreon.com slash between the sheets. And one more and then we will get to our topic at hand. You also host center stage crackles, which is on the between the sheets podcast feed. And that is yourself Rob Naylor, who people have heard on this show many times. We brought him for Hall of Fame shows many times. And then Charles wrestling playlists, Charles, who we talk to a bunch as well. And it's you guys breaking down month by month, WCW and the most recent one. I haven't listened to yet. I didn't even realize it was up until I looked at your guys' podcast feed to get ready for the show. August of 1991. So that is center stage chronicles yourself Rob Naylor, Charles talking a month at a time of WCW. I absolutely adore that show. It's a lot of culture. Let's not forget that. Yeah, a lot and that's probably my favorite part. I mean, as much as I love the wrestling, the pop culture stuff is awesome. Just to give you a hint of the pop culture stuff because I didn't want WCW in August. I mean, it's a lot of shit going on as far as crazy shit. The cactus jacks back, the little butcher's back, Johnny Bed, Steve Austin beefing over,

25:56Johnny Bed's intentions for Lady Blossom, which he wants to go shopping with her. But you know, it's neat when you're a title tournament. But you know, pop culture wise, we got a days of our lives stuff. We got the debut of Doug Rugrats, Brandon Stampy on Nickelodeon. All the transformation of Nickelodeon. That was a, that's, did you guys talk? I haven't listened yet. But people that don't know that that that August 1991 is basically when Nickelodeon decides to go all in on animation. And people don't know this, but don't show it like they all debuted on the same day. Same day. All the like Doug. The program. It was like the same day. They were like, all right. We've done that because they did a lot of the scripted shows and a lot of the game shows during the early days of Nickelodeon. Then they just go all in on animation in like one night. They just transformed the entire network. Yeah. And we talk about, we talk a little bit about it and how Rinne Stampy was just so off the wall for Nickelodeon, you know, to be on there. But you know, we got the Super Nintendo came out in August of 1991.

26:58So we talk about that. Now, a lot of, you know, music, PM Dawn, Metallica's Black Album, Cypress Hills debut album, Brooks and Dunns, first big album, Mr. Bungle, Spin Doctors, Ten from Pearl Jam, came out in August, Toad the Wet Sprocket. I mean, a lot of really good albums came out. It's interesting movies too. So, yeah, really fun time. In August 1991, we talked about the MSNR stage Chronicles. There it is. Watch the Fendi Gilbert no showing WCW. No way. Yeah, because you didn't want to be a baby face. We'll talk about that. Oh, and oh, and one more thing. Something that's really important, the invention of the worldwide web was basically in August 1991. Well, there it is. Yeah. That's how we're doing this. So thank you August of 1991. But that's again, between the sheets, patreon.com slash between the sheets. So there we go. I want to get that out of the way. Before we get in the topic at hand. So yeah, let's get into it.

27:59We brought you on here to talk about Bill Dundee because the wrestling world obviously lost Bill Dundee last week. I died at the age of 82. I think he had just celebrated a birthday recently as well. Long battle with dementia. Recent double pneumonia diagnosis. And he had, and I don't know if you had seen recent pictures of him. I remember there was that picture of him. I forget who was all there. It was him, Lawler, and somebody else. Maybe that was a, yeah, that was like a convention or something. Yeah. Or some deal where like Jerry Kowloon, Lawler, I mean, I think Doug Gilbert was the one. And I remember seeing him. Wow. He does not look very good. And then when he, I heard the news that he passed away, it was like, yeah. Well, I mean, Dundee was in a, damn, a bit the day before he died. Yeah, right. I mean, he didn't stop him from making a pair. Hell no. Hell no would do. Yeah. Always a worker, brother. Yeah, got him, got him a talent. Got him, got him, got him, got him, got him, got him, got him, got him, got him, got him a talent. So, yeah, Bill, Bill been going through a four-while because our, our, our, our different

28:59bow James was very tight with Bill. And he would tell us about, you know, stuff that Bill had going on over the years. And it was just sad because Bill was such a sharp guy, you know, and so many ways. It, you know, that dementia man, it's just, it's just, it's a mother, it's a mother fucker. It's absolutely awful. Yeah, I did, I did the dynamite review yesterday. I was talking about rebel and, and ALS and just how an awful disease it is because, you know, you're just sitting there in your body, just, you know, killing itself. And dementia is kind of the same way as well. I mean, I, we've all probably dealt with dementia. I've dealt with it several times with grandparents and people in my family. And I'm guessing pretty much everybody listening to this has had somebody that, that's dealt with it. And that's an off. I mean, that is such an awful disease because it's just, yeah, you're, you're, you're there physically, but mentally, you're just, you're, you're, you're in and you're out. And for some people, they get severe dementia and they're completely out of it. And it's like their body is, their body's fine. Like their body is, is healthy, but the brain, it's just, yeah, it's a horrible disease and seeing people that have gone through it, it's just, it's, it's tragic.

30:01It's like, you know, in, in some cases, I had, I, my grandmother, I mean, she had it for about 10 or 15 years or whatever. And I, I almost didn't remember her as like, her, you know what I mean? Because she's, she, they're different people. They're just not the same person after the diagnosis as it gets worse. I just become so tough. And it's like, yeah, you want to, you know, you want to help them as much as possible. You want to talk to them as much as possible. You want to do as many things as possible, but you could just tell us in some cases, especially with severe dementia. It's just, it's, it's awful. It's just a terrible, terrible disease. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, he had been dealing with that for a while. But yeah, what, what, what would you make of the news when you, when you heard that, yeah, build on D. I mean, that's, like you said, that, that was a worker through and through to the end. I mean, I, I looked up his stuff with Jerry Lawler and I, and obviously we'll talk about that. Link to Jerry Lawler from the beginning, almost the beginning of his career until the end of his career, quite a lot of the end of his career, because I looked up, you know, cage match has 350 instances of Jerry Lawler and build on D sharing a ring together. I'm sure there are hundreds more that are wasted there.

31:01Yeah. Way, way, way more. They have 82 singles matches between the two again, way, way more that are, are probably not listed there stipulations along the way. You got a $4,000 versus Jerry Lawler's car steel cage match, hair versus car, build on D's hair versus Lawler's manager's hair, car versus hair, Lawler's hair versus Dundee's wife's hair, which we're going to get to a little bit. Lawler's blindfolded, loser leaves town matches, several of them like dozens of loser leaves town matches. So I did look this up to the first match that they had with each other was August 4th, 1975, Don Green and Jerry Lawler versus Bill Dundee and Luke Graham. And the final match that they were both in together, December 12, 2015, build on D and Jerry Lawler, offers Chris Rocker and Tracy Smothers and Dundee, like you said, making towns, working events until literally the day before he passes away. But yeah, what would you make of this news? This is kind of an all-timer, especially if you watch this era of pro wrestling. I mean, and especially if you're a Memphis fan, that's a guy who at worst is what this,

32:04you can say second or third most important guy. Lawler number one, Jimmy Hart Lance Russell, Bill Dundee, those are the top four and I guess whatever order you want to put them in after I guess Lawler probably number one. I mean, you could put Russell number one. I don't know. Where do you stand? I mean, I know you guys are big Memphis guy. Like Dundee's, you know, he's, he's it. He's one of the key components of that. I mean, I mean, if you can do a five, basically of this, Lawler and Lance Russell are your top two. Jackie Fargo definitely is right there because Jackie Fargo set the template for what would, what would you, what would you become because Jackie Fargo was the king of Memphis before Lawler and wrestling. Jimmy Hart and I mean, Bill Dundee and Jimmy Hart. That's your, that's your five. Yeah, yeah. That's your five. I mean, that's the five guys and Dundee, when I read about Dundee's death, I mean, yeah, it surprised me because I hadn't heard anything really lately and like I said, I'd been

33:06seeing him around. I've been seeing pictures of him at places. So it wasn't like he was, you know, in a hospital or was in, you know, when they were saying grave conditioning thing, it's just, you see him around making appearances. Oh, okay, there's Bill. And I knew he'd been in bad shape, but he's there. But he said, yeah, just called me off guard and then I was like, I've seen pictures of him and he was like, yeah, it was the day before he died. He appeared at the Memphis wrestling. Then he met the wrestling that a show or something to him deal that he was at and he was there. So it was a surprise that in that way. So yeah, I mean, Bill was 82 years old. So I mean, so he's not, you know, wasn't young anymore and he had his issues. So yeah, but it's still, it's still a surprise. Not, not surprise is any Williams. That's a whole different story. But I mean, yeah, of course. But yeah, it's just a, it was a surprise. Yeah. But for Bill Dundee, I mean, trying to wrap up his career and try to utilize it.

34:07I mean, it's, it would be here for hours and hours and hours. We'll try to do it. There's so much we don't know about his early career. That's a thing. I mean, start wrestling 1962. Right, right. So for Bill Dundee, he was, he was born in Scotland, but raised in Australia and the Australian wrestling scene is one that we know a little bit about, but we don't know that much. I mean, the record keeping, not very great on Australia. We know some of the stuff from, you know, WCW, you know, the, we know that. Yeah, because of Jim Barnett or whatever, but there, there, there was a whole scene down there. I mean, that's the reason why Jim Barnett decided to go down there and, and, and make, you know, because there was a scene already going on down there. So yeah, we have a ton, the early part of his career, we don't, we, we know very little. And I mean, tape wise, what, what's even out there of his early, early stuff? We don't, do we have a bunch of all? Yeah, very, very, there, there is a couple of matches of him, you know, they're black and white of the Australia days. He was a job guy for many years on television because in that, in those days of Australia, they didn't push to natives that heavily.

35:09They were just background players to the foreign talent that was coming in, you know, and that would change in the 70s, Bill and George Barnes and some other people, like, Lario Day and, you know, Ron Miller and those guys, but they had, they came to America. And then they came back to Australia and that's where they came big stars. Dunedito, they went back. George Barnes got tired of it over here, but they'll done the George Barnes, came to Memphis together to tag team. Yes. And I mean, we have a little bit of them as a tag team. And their stuff was like legendary. I mean, Lance Russell, you know, they weren't there long, Lance and Dave would talk about Dunedy and Barnes and Reverend Toans about how great of a team they were and how vicious they were, you know, and it's like, you see it when you see it, but it's like, we don't have hardly nothing, you know, but some house show footage of it, of them there. And, I mean, they were heels and they come in anti-American and all that jazz and

36:12I mean, they were rough and see, Lawler, they come in, Lawler's not there. Lawler is in Georgia at the time, working Georgia. So, Lawler comes into Tennessee and by the time Lawler comes back to Tennessee, Dunedy has already turned baby face. And that's when we get the Dunedy Lawler feud coming off of that. Yeah. Yeah, I feel it don't know George Barnes was a tag team part. They came in, you know, anti-American, you know, pro-Australia. Barnes is sick of it. He goes back to Australia. He then starts a gimmick. Now he's pro-American anti-Australia. Yeah, he goes that's Australia. He goes that one to America. It's great. And you know, that's his whole new gimmick. And then he's there for, yeah, almost the rest of his career. He does, he comes back to Memphis. They him in Dunedy, that little feud was. Almost a great. Or whatever. Yeah, there's that cave man. It's really awesome between the two and bloody and just, yeah, good, good stuff there. But that's like what, 8687, I forget the exact date. 87, 87, okay.

37:13When Dunedy comes back from Crockett. That's right. Yeah, yeah, okay. That's, yeah, I'm trying to, I, that's a timeline, right, right? So, but yeah, then Dunedy kind of links up with Jerry Lawler. And that is, I mean, you could tell the rest of his life in terms of, obviously he's done so many more things that we're going to talk about, but him and Jerry Lawler, I mean, you cannot, I mean, that is the central act of, of, of, and, and, and Jerry Lawler, obviously Jimmy Hart, long, you know, feuds with Jimmy Hart, almost the entire time he's in Memphis. But it's almost always it's, he's frenemies with Bill Dundee. He's either FUNOID Bill Dundee or he's teaming with Bill Dundee, but they are just 100% linked almost the entire time the rest of their lives, you know, in the case of Bill Dundee now. Yeah, I mean, whether they're rivals or tag partners, yeah, they were just so intertwined with each other. I mean, it's, I try to be trying to think of any other wrestling do like that. And I can't think of anybody that had the longevity

38:15and the years of doing that type of relationship than Jerry Lawler and superstar bill Dundee. I mean, they, they did it for so long in some, in different eras, different incarnations of Memphis. And yeah, I mean, it is one of those, in its one of those deals where only in Memphis could you do this, where you have these two guys that is known were not the best of friends. Even when they were partners, we're not the best of friends. Which I always love. They were competitive, yeah, they were competitive rivals, but they, but they would be on the same side with the same common goal. And when they united, I mean, it was pushed as nobody could beat them. They were the unbeatable team in that territory. Right, right. If you put Lawler and Dundee together, you ain't beat them, you know, so it was a special thing whenever they would team together. And, and yeah, and they would put big baby faces, you know, and

39:17may not be always, you know, with each other, but they're on the same side fighting the same battle. And then when they did get together, like I said, it's, you know, it's like Superman and, you know, it's Batman together in a way. And it was, it was the story of Memphis for, for many years, it's Lawler and Dundee. And when they were fighting each other, I mean, that's when they were at their best. And more often than not, Lawler is the heel in that case. In the 70s, in the 80s, Dundee is always the heel, you know, pretty much. So, and then the 90s, you know, when Lawler had the heel run in 90, then, you know, if that way. And then in 95, they had a little beef. And then 96, Lawler turned heel with the, and it was a heel with the, at the same time in Memphis, the only time that ever happened, you know. So, you had that 96 where they were feeding with the young guys.

40:19And I think people probably, I don't know if you'd be, I don't think people quite realize that we're talking about these two guys still into the mid 90s. And that's what you're talking about, like the longevity of this. I mean, we were talking Memphis, it didn't just, you know, poof go away, you know, after the expansion era. No, until the 90s, these guys are still linked to this territory and still to Memphis. And I think that, that, and still linked to each other. And that, I don't, there's nobody that you can come to it. There's nobody that you can think of that, that are in, because there's no, there's no territory that's that close in it. There's no territory that survives that long. There, you know, there's, there's nothing like it. I mean, Memphis is a very, it's, it's, nothing compares to Memphis. Like, you know what I mean? It's a unicorn of rest. Yeah. A lot of guys. The small little roster. And most people stay loyal to it till the end. Like, till, till, you know, and still loyal to it today. You know, I mean, like, still an important part of Memphis. I mean, Jerry Lawler is still a fucking massive, massive, massive star in Memphis.

41:21Of course. Portland's like the next one. Portland's like the next closest to that type of deal. Right. Body Rose in Portland. Kind of, yeah, yeah, that's, but a lot of those guys left. A lot of those dude's, Billy Jeff left, you know what I mean? Like, those guys left. Left came back, left came back, left came back, Matt Bourne, buddy, buddy Rose. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's just, they were, they were the next one. But yeah, Memphis was a unicorn in wrestling. And there would, there would be another, another one, light Memphis. There never was then. There ain't no one that at now. It's just, it was unique in how it was presented and how they ran things there. So I wanted to point out a little bit more about the, and that's something that I always was really intrigued by when I would watch Memphis television is that you're saying when Jerry Lawler and, and, and Bill Dundee were on the same side. And they were both Bay of Face at the same time or whatever. And what would always happen is, you know, it would, largely what, what I remember is, you know, Jerry Lawler would have to convince Bill Dundee more times than not of like, look, you know, I don't like you. And you don't like me. And we haven't gotten along in the past.

42:21And, and I was appreciate that. It's not this, you know, WWE has made, you know, in the last 30 years, it's, it's kind of gold fish booking is what we call it. I'm here where it's just like, you just pretend that this, that pay-review cycle was that pay-review cycle, this pay-review cycle is this pay-review cycle. So whatever happened a month ago, that doesn't matter. Now it's this, you know, so guys will try to kill each other. And then two months later, it's like, oh, you know, whatever, we're fine. We're, you know, and that never happened. And for 30 years, these guys would get together. And Jerry Lawler would have to convince Bill Dundee, look, I know that you and I, we don't like each other, but I need your help right now. If we're going to beat Jimmy Harder, if we're going to beat, X, if we're going to beat this, you know, whatever, I need your help. And if it's you and I together, we're unstoppable. We can't be beaten. And, you know, it would always be a little bit of a hesitation. Bill Dundee wouldn't just say, all right, yeah, let's do it. It would always be a little, all right. I mean, yeah, and they never saw it. Even when they were together, it was always this, this tension. And I love that. And I think that's something that I, I hope A, W continues doing with Hangman Page and Swerve. And I hope that more wrestling does that where it's like, if you try to, you know, murder

43:25your opponent in a feud, we shouldn't, you know, a year later, their buddy buddies. And it's just okay. Like you should, there should always be that simmering tension, no matter what between these guys. And I always appreciated that with, with Dundee and Lawler that, you know, even when they would team up and win tag titles and do these things, there was always that uneasiness between the two because, look, the next time they were teaming up was just getting ready for the next time they were going to break up and start fusing again as well. So the perfect example that will all are in D is 87. You know, Lawler had the feud with Violin Rich, also on Tommy Rich that started at the end of 86 when 87, Lawler got posted, you know, which was, which was to explain his vasectomy surgery. And then he does that hair, loses his hair in Memphis and such an awesome reason for this. Okay. So Lawler gets his head shaved in Memphis. Dundee comes back to Memphis because, because he leaves Crockett and his storyline explanation come at the Memphis is he's fucking pissed off at all.

44:26And I don't time it rich because they were the ones that shaved all day. I mean, how fucking great is that? God is so good. It is so good. It is the impetus for him, you night with Lawler and they teamed up and they won the feud. What happened to this game? What happened to this game, Chris? Come on. Oh, it's shit. Well, I don't want to get you started. But I mean, think about that. He's pissed off that they took the guy's hair and he couldn't. That should have been me. After all these matches, he shaved my wife's hair and then I didn't get the chance to shave his hair. God damn it. Yes. Yes. And that's true. Bill got his head shaved and Beverly got her head shaved. You know, in 1978, you know, I mean, Lawler shaved both of his head. You know, in Lawler, at one point, Paula, his wife's hair up in a match. But he won the match and she didn't get her head shaved. But yeah, I mean, how great is that?

45:27I mean, that just explains Memphis is a territory where their baby faces. They could have these people that were like blood rivals as baby faces and explain why they are teaming together. They're been in anybody else. But they also could do the same thing where they could have the two baby faces, Light Lawler and Dunneed, still be baby faces, but feud with each other and not not either what I'm telling you. That's a thing to, you know, that wrestling today is trying to do and it's different. But bad dynamic, way tougher because there's clear cut, they face an heal. Right. And fans wanted to know. And fans wanted to know who should I cheer for. Because 95. Early 95, there was a deal where Bill Dunneed and Brian Christopher refused both for baby faces and Lawler's been involved in a way because everybody knew that Lawler was Brian's dad. And he was never said in Memphis television.

46:28And but none of them turned. And then you had to deal with Lawler and Dunneed 88 with their battling over the ring. Lord of the ring, that Lawler won. Dunneed's jealous. That Lawler won this ring and he, these feed, they wrestled multiple matches that Miss Upcalls here for the damn ring. And Dunneed's putting up $25,000 and sit like that for this ring. But they're both baby faces. Nobody turns. But they're battling for this ring. That's what the motivation is about. And I mean, it's just, it's stuff like that that worked in that territory that wouldn't work anywhere else because of the personalities of guys like Jerry Lawler and Superstar Bill Dunneed and the fans believed in it. And whenever Bill was a heal, anyway, the girls loved him. He was always beloved by the female fans because, you know, he was, he was so cute, the lossy, you know, dude, it was a little shimmy in the ring and everything. And the girls loved him. They always did. So even when he was the most dashly of heals, he was still get cheered by the women.

47:32So I mean, Memphis television is such an interesting sociological experiment to watch at times, to watch out things go on there because there's nothing like it. And it's done live. It's like television. It's a thing too. And it felt like a live. And it felt like a two and that's something that I, I, I rant a lot about with modern wrestling and I watch it. I go back and watch territory wrestling, particularly Memphis. And the thing that I always bring up is it feels like a, a pro wrestling show. It feels like a live show that, that, you know, you, you, you've just stumbled upon this thing. It's this, this crazed circus and you need the straight man. You need a Dave Browne. You need Lance Ross of the straight men that are caught up in the circus. You need the straight, you cannot have the announcers be in on it. You know, you can't have today the announcers are in on it. Today the announcers go, what a crazy world this is. Oh, you know, the permanent now is somebody made one time and I can't remember who made it. And that's pissed me off. I can't remember. Was Memphis television like the Muppet show in Lancers, Kermit trying to keep everything in order and everything.

48:33Trying to keep everything in order and everything going on. You know, I mean, it was, it was Lance Russell. You know, this is his television show and you got these, you know, these crazy wrestlers I hear doing on this wild shit, you know, that this is just disrupted the whole proceedings in the television. Right. We're trying to do our TV show here and these maniacs are, are fucking it up and they're walking in front of the camera and they're fighting you the announcer table and like, ah, come on guys, get out of here. Lance is just trying to do his thing. He's trying to do his thing. He's up. And you guys are getting the way. But you need that. You need the straight man and that's, that's something was so great about that era of wrestling is that they would have, you know, the local weather guy, the local news guy and like you trusted this person, you trusted this guy that that is, you know, you saw him on your local news. He told you your weather, he told you your traffic, he told you that you needed that kind of guy because then it made the guys look, the wrestlers make, look that much more insane because here's a normal human being dropped into this fucking insane world and Memphis is the best example of that because you have two, you know, very normal people in Dave Brown

49:33and Lance Russell and then nobody else is normal. Everybody else is just completely crazed idiots and maniacs or whatever, but you need wrestlers to be maniacs and idiots and wild. I don't want my wrestlers to be, you know, super approachable and, you know, vulnerable and normal and stuff. No, I don't want to watch normal people. I want to watch crazed maniacs, you know, trying to fight and kill each other. And that's, that's the essence what it's all about. And I think that, that's what made Memphis so great and that's what, you know, Dundee was so good at that because he was a fucking idiot. He was a maniac. I mean, he is a great promo, a great wrestler to who, it didn't matter that he was what, he was a 5-8. Is he listed at 5-8 or is he actually 5-8? I forget what he was. I don't think he's short in that. Yeah, I don't think so. I think he was listed at 5-8. I'd say 5-5-5-6, right? 5-6, mid to most, maybe 5-7 possible. Yeah, but it didn't matter, you know what I mean? He came across like a tough guy no matter what. He had a, he was, yeah. It was legit. He was a tough motherfucker. Oh yeah. And in my Memphis, you think you got, you create him. Yeah. And in my Memphis, you think you got, you created minds of Jerry Jarrett and Jerry Lawler

50:40and Bill Dundee, you know, whenever he was booking. I mean, that's the thing as well. You had these creative minds that were just doing all these things that were just, you know, throwing stuff out there, just see what happens, you know, and they were willing to take the risk, will they take chances and see what works, you know. And that's, again, something that's solely missing in a day's wrestling. It's a mentality like that. That's what, you know, Justin and I are going to talk about a little bit later in the show here. It's just the wrestling age problem where you just, nobody gets, no young wrestlers to push because we pretend that they're not ready. They're not ready. They're not ready. Maybe in a couple of years it'll be their turn. They're not ready. That's not the story. And it's like, Jesus, man. I know you, I started. Yeah, I know you know about that. It's insane how old everybody is and how every young wrestler, it's like, well, until they're 32 or 33, we can't push them because they're not ready or it's not their turn or whatever. It's like, fuckers over. Just push them. What are we doing here? Like what happened? Yeah, and Memphis was always, I mean, not afraid to push young wrestlers, dude.

51:42No, I mean, God, I was watching 83 Memphis for, I did a show on our Patreon called Tour of the Territories where I would go to every, a different territory every single week and watch them. And I would bring up the ages of all these people and I'd be like, all right, here's Coco Ware, you know, in 1983, he has like 21 years old and he's like a star, you know, he's like, Bobbi Eaton's like 22, it's like the stars of the show are 21 and 22 years old. Like we would never in today's wrestling. I mean, if a 22 year old got hot and was, you know, no, they would never, ever push them to a two and a half years. And they were better than I did. Yeah, right. Coco had like five years under his belt already. Yeah, so, so to be, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's just a different world and yeah, there's just one of the great things about Memphis wrestling is that, you know, but you had, here's the thing, you had all these different guys, but it always led back to Jerry Loller and Bill Dundee. And it's, I mean, it's longer than the clear number one, of course he is because he is, he's always the king of Memphis. He was always going to be the guy.

52:43But again, Dundee was so staunch in being that number two guy that he was seen as being a Loller's contemporary and being almost as equal as Jerry Loller, not quite, but almost as equal. So I mean, it was no slight to him to be number two. No, no, no, because you needed that number two because without somebody like a Bill Dundee, if you take out Bill Dundee, a Bill Dundee never exists and it's just Jerry Loller, yeah, could somebody have stepped up into that role maybe, but there's a reason they kept going back to Bill Dundee. The reason we just talked about 25 years of these guys feuding and teaming together, why it was always an option to go back to Bill Dundee. I mean, you could always rely on him to be whatever you needed him to be with Jerry Loller. You always had Loller, of course, but yeah, you always were able to rely on Bill Dundee to either feud with Loller or team with Loller or be right there with them. So I do think that that makes him as important as integral in Memphis wrestling as Loller,

53:44as Lance Russell, as like we said, that top five, you kind of really can't replace any of those guys. All five of those dudes, you need Jimmy Hart in there, you need Jerry Loller in there. You could do it without Jimmy Hart. You could do it without Jimmy Hart. I mean, I think we saw that in the last half of the 80s and the 90s or whatever. Well, he was a catalyst though. He was the Memphis with Bobby Heenan with CWA. Right. He was a catalyst, certainly. They had different heel managers coming after that, but nobody got to where Jimmy Hart was and that's just the way it is. Now one thing you said about Dundee, as far as without Loller around, when he beat Loller for the first time in a lose league town match at the end of December 1985, Dundee was then the clear cut number one guy in the territory. He was a lead heel. He's a Southern champion. Those box offices bombed. There was a major problem there.

54:46Loller was supposed to be gone for a while. I think six months was when he was supposed to come back in the summer. He had to come back in March because the business was just going down. As Dundee was the lead heel and they turned Dutch and Dutch went baby face. That was okay. They had brought in Austinite or they brought in some people that go get Dundee, but it just wasn't clicking because there was nobody then at the time that was ready to be the next Jerry Loller. Then they shoot the big angle with the Bill and Buddy show and all that. Then the old Jeff Jarrett thing, we're just a referee and they beat him up. They beat Jerry up and that's when any Marling gets on the phone with Dutch and they call Jerry Loller and Loller comes back in. Then that's when they draw big business. The last big sellouts of the Miss Off-Calsium was basically during that few.

55:52All those big matches. That was a strike against Dundee in that way that he couldn't be the number one. The number one without a strong antagonist against him. Again, that's the thing. If they had somebody that was there that was ready to be that strong antagonist, who knows? They didn't have that then and it just it didn't work. It didn't work for him. He's booking too. That's exactly where I was going to go. Let's talk about his booking a little bit because you're going to talk about his Memphis booking. We'll get to the Mid-South booking a little bit. The Memphis booking and Joe and I have talked about this a lot and people that don't know. Today's wrestling, you're the booker and you're just the booker forever. Nobody ever takes it away from you. Memphis was just that thing that book was passing around all the time. I was like, I've done my time. It was just going to pass around to get different guys all the time. I think that's a great way to do wrestling. Maybe there's a best way to do wrestling.

56:52You get burnt out. You get lost in ideas. You need someone else to try something full of the difference. Sometimes it gets a little weird. Sometimes it gets a little funky and sometimes you need new ideas. You need new people. You need that book passed around and that was one great thing about Memphis is that that book would get passed around all the time. And mainly, it was mainly Jared and Lullaby. I mean, Jared and the Jerry's. They were the main ones and in your normal setup, it would be Jared with the book six months, Lullaby with book six months. But then, different times, then you would get different people. And Dundee would start getting this chance to have the book. Then you, as the 80s went along, then you get people like Tom Rennesto, getting this chance with the book, Robert Fuller books. You get Dutch books. I mean, you get these different people. Randy Hales is booking. In the late 80s and the 90s, of course, he books, Eric Embryon, 90s is booking. So you get different people, but it's still mainly revolved around the Jerry's, Lullaby and

57:56Jared. And Dundee learned his booking, basically, from those guys. And you know, 83 was the pivotal year. Because 83, that's when Dundee turns heel on Luller. When I were down Luller, he turns heel on Terry Taylor for the Southern title. And then they do the quick turnaround on like a two week deal. They have two matches, which Lee, I mean, Lee's to the Lou's Lee Town match, which is done for a reason because Memphis was about to be split. Luller was going to leave him in last. They're going to leave it for their own thing. And Dundee was going to be a part of the Jared thing, but at that time, Dundee, Jared was working with Ole Anderson. So Dundee went to work Chattanooga, which was Jared and Oli shared little thing that they were trying to do, where they were taping TV in Chattanooga. They were running Chattanooga and they were running the Georgia towns that the Georgia

58:58office were neglecting for the Northern tours. So they were running Macon, Augusta, Columbus, Marietta. They were running those towns, Dundee and Dutch are the ones running those towns. I mean, they're being the main guys. So they're doing that for a while. That falls apart. The Luller split from Jared doesn't happen. So that's why you look at 1983 Memphis. You see one of the most stacked rosters of people you would ever see. And it's also a reason why you see guys like Stan Hansen and Joseph and Tura come in, because Luller had them set up to come to work for him and keep a terror on stuff like that. So these big names that he had set up to work for him are now doing shots for Jared. So it becomes this mega territory. Dundee comes back originally, you know, as a heal, turns baby face, then turns him on Luller. Well, no, him and Luller can't team together because Luller just can't get over the fact

1:00:01of how Bill was the last amazing stuff. He just built Bill's bagging him, you know, to be a tag partner. And they do, they do some tag stuff and Jared just isn't TV when they Bill, I just can't do this. Doesn't feel right. Yeah. It just, it's just, I just can't, I can't put the past behind us. How fucking great is that? And then they start feeling again, you know, I mean, it's just amazing stuff. But it did in the 83 Watts calls, they'll go Watts calls the Jerry's and says, listen, I got to do something. I mean, my territory, I mean, we're just not doing the visibility. You know, I need you guys to come down here, watch my TV, tell me what I need to do. And you know, the story is they go down there. Jared, Jared, all the time on the show, yeah, love it. We're the blow jobs. Yeah, we're the blow jobs that Bill was like, wow, I mean, I, you know, it's all nervous. Yeah, I don't reckon, I don't know. He's like, yeah, you had to explain what he meant was not physically blow jobs with a

1:01:05cute band faces. So they made the, they, they made the deals and go coordinate the midnight, go in first. And then Terry Taylor goes in and Dundee is coming in to be the booker. Yeah. So this is, you know, Bill Dundee's first chance to really be on his own outside of the Memphis universe, you know, as a, as a booker. And yes, Bill Watts is to be all end all. Of course, he's a guy that approves everything. He, that's Dundee pretty much have full reign of just by everything. And Dundee goes in there and mid self wrestling in the four, nine, two, eight, five has their best business ever. Oh, it's, and it's so quick too. I watched, you know, for that tour of the territory series, I ended up watching one of the first couple of Bill Dundee books, you know, Mid-South and Lady D3. And we had watched a lot of Mid-South. And I was always like, man, I really thought Mid-South is going to be a lot better because I was watching, you know, the early parts of 83. I was like, man, this is not really doing it for me because I had always remembered 84, 85 Mid-South. And so I was like, oh, he three, yeah, it must be pretty good.

1:02:06And it's just not. And then all of a sudden, I get to some random episode of November 83 and Dundee is there. He's actually wrestling on the show and, you know, the midnight to there, the rocket. And it's just like night and day, like holy crap, this show is already like really good. And, and, and the obviously 84 and 85, it's going to get great. But it was noticeable. I mean, the change, whatever Bill Watts wants to say about, you know, him having final approval, I mean, it was, it was night and day difference between what that territory was before and what it was after. I mean, it's much more fast paced that the wrestling is better. The booking is better. Everything is, it is a night and day difference. So what a great visit it was for those guys to come down there and just reinvigorate Mid-South. Well, cowboy knew what he had to do and he let Bill do it. He let Dundee do it. And, you know, the rocker roll express being the catalyst of all of it, you know, and they became, you know, humongous in Mid-South at the time. I mean, the thing is, too, the Watts told Dundee, you can't, you can't push yourself. So Dundee in Mid-South was a mid-car wrestler at best.

1:03:09But he would get, he got the TV title in late 84. He had a little TV title run, you know, gets Adrian Street and all that. But he could not push himself as a top guy or anywhere in the top. I mean, the closest he ever got was when he was, you know, leaving Mid-South, when he turned heel and him and dutch viewed the fantastic. So with the suit and all that stuff, you know, the little suit that they stole and gave to the midget wrestler and all that jazz. And, you know, I mean, that's the closest that Dundee ever had as far as being a push guy in Mid-South was in that whole deal towards the end of his run. But I mean, yeah, he, when it comes to his case as a whole of favor, I mean, as much as his work in the ring is worthy of it, that mid-South booking run alone, I mean, is one of his biggest accomplishments, you know, of what he could do as a booker. Yeah, if you ever want to, you know, if you ever making a wrestling, it was a whole of fame case for Dundee. I mean, that's something. And I have.

1:04:10Yeah. And I have voted for him in the past and I'm definitely going to consider it again that that just one always helps with somebody because then you kind of re-examine their career. You do this stuff. You re-watch it. Yeah, he's a guy that I'm very interested to see what happens with him this year in the Observer Hall fan because yeah, that booking run, that's an all time, a booking run. I mean, that is taking a guy who goes to a territory that's just kind of there and that thing lights on fire in 8485. And it's, you know, it's noticeably and obvious that it's been way during his booking regime that that happens. So it's like one of those cases where you can just easily point to a guy who's like, yeah, that dude completely transforms that territory and gets them, you know, for booking wise. And Joel Watts, I mean, Joel Watts, you know, figuring out, we got to do these MTV star videos and which Memphis was doing already. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And he was in here getting inspiration from that. But Joel Watts doing his videos and done the booking. I mean, that was so pivotal in changing the presentation of their television. One thing I've always wondered about with that trade and I guess I've never had a good

1:05:13answer on this to didn't Memphis think that they were getting a good deal by getting a good deal of money and night heart and Rick Rude back and giving up because when you look at like the players that got moved over, it's just like, well, yeah, obviously all the guys going to Mid-South are incredible. And yeah, you're getting Bundy and you're getting night heart and you're getting a very young. But it was a part of it. Yeah. Bundy was in Georgia to go to Memphis. But night heart, Rude, Masalito was part of that. Some others were involved in it. I mean, what it was was why do we need to rock a roll of stress with the fabulous ones? Well, here's the thing. Rock a roll of stress leaves is like a week or two later the fabs quit and go to the NAWI. So yeah, they were noticeable. They were noticeable. They were. They think that. That's why they had to, that's why they had to create a new fads with Tom Virginia and Gilbert because if the rock a roll of stress is still there, rock a roll of stress is still there. They just fly right in.

1:06:14Yeah. And yes, you had that happen. And I mean, they just had so many people from that 83 roster. They were so lovely. We had to, you know, let's go ahead and get, you know, because of these people free. And yeah, I mean, it just. It's also a very different mentality. The rest of the mentality is very different now versus today where if you look at that trade now, you're like, well, they gave up so much sound, but like, you know, it was good that guys left. It was like, I mean, we told our stories with those guys, whatever, you know, let them leave and then they'll come back and then we can use them again, you know, down the road. Eaton had been there off and on for four years. Condrie had been there off and on for a lot longer than that. So I mean, they're got those are two gotten coordinate, you know, been around for a while. So those guys have, they were not, you know, not fresh. So imagine, imagine saying that today is wrestling. That guy's been there for four years. He should go, he should leave and go to a different company. You know what I mean? Like guys are on Sunday nights, man, of that. We were celebrating like 25 years of the mister.

1:07:14Maybe it was 20 years. I forget what it was. And I was just like, oh, it's your God. What is happening? Well, I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, that's the way it was. I mean, there were certain guys that would have longer runs, but I mean, it was rare. But I mean, promoters would say, hey, you got to go. I mean, I mean, flat out, this is all right. We're finishing you up. Yeah. Let me, I'll help you find somewhere else to go. And this guy bringing people because the fans were, you know, can get tired of you, you know, if you're there for too long, you need to go somewhere. And then you come back and be refreshed. You know, you've been gone for a while. They haven't seen you. I mean, that's one of the great things about territorial wrestling that we don't have anymore. Yeah, it's real stuff. Japan tours, Japan tours, explaining, doing injury angles. So if somebody can go to Japan, suspensions, you know, stuff like that, you know, it's just some of the great tricks that you can use to refresh talent, you know, and, you know,

1:08:17Memphis was definitely one of those promotions that would all the law learned D were, you know, sections to that rule of law, but still, you know, they would still, I mean, Dundee would go back and forth. And, you know, he leaves me south because back to Memphis A5 as the booker. He replaced Tom Ernesto as the book. Ernesto was a failure, a big failure in 85 as a booker. And Dundee comes in and immediately the territory, you know, gets back hot again for a while until Lawler does the loser leaves and all that happens after that. But I mean, that is another thing for Dundee. That's such a hot run he was on as the booker was, you know, continuing in Memphis. And, you know, they do the whole deal there. Lawler comes back. They do lose lead. They do lose lead town match. There's time Lawler wins. And this is when Dundee and Buddy Landel go to Crockett, which was a very interesting fit. Budrow had just been there, you know, got fired at the end of December 1st, January, because

1:09:22he overslept. And Dusty took the belt off of it and nationally, I wait to out and put it on him himself. And some Budrow was fired, but they brought him back. And we build Dundee. It's player coach. And they were very interesting. They were, they rare heel act that would talk shit on other heels. They would talk shit on Rick Flair. They would talk shit on the horse when it's stuff like that. They were that rare act that would talk shit on other heels as well as baby faces. Baby Landel is a real nature boy. Rick Flair is scared of Buddy Landel. You know, stuff like that. Budrow again did his deal. He no showed left. Dundee was there. And this is when Dundee gets, you know, he gets, what would you be Garvin? And then he goes to Central States. And that's pretty much wrestling, purgatory. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Central States. Yeah, he had Central States. Feed it with Sam Houston for the Central States title and stuff like that.

1:10:24And then he goes to Florida. And then he drops Central States and they take over Florida. He's down there doing that state type of role with the barbarian, the mod squad as his guys. Again, not just, again, not the best use of build Dundee by insurance management. But, but they do a match which I wish was fucking taped. The King of Memphis match. Dundee against Dusty Rose were Dundee one. Now, I wish that match was a tough one. Oh, in Florida. In Florida. In Memphis. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. What the hell? Yeah, someone's got to have this. The King of Memphis match. The King of Memphis match. Yeah, I mean, that happened. And I mean, that's something I wish that we had. And we don't. But that was for us. Dundee swan song. He goes back to Memphis and then, you know, he's there for a long time after that, working for the jazz. You know, that's what him involved in the AWA World Tag titles. Yeah. Yeah, I watched the match pretty recently against facing them in the original Bindites.

1:11:28Yeah, that match at the Coliseum, King of Tennessee, the King of Memphis was March 5, 87. Only George 2500 fans of the Coliseum. But still, that's what happened. But yeah, him and Lord were the AWA Tag titles. They're dressed in tuxedo. Those are like the fabs and shit. That's a weird deal. But I mean, yeah. And then, this is when he starts training guys, too. You know, he starts running the wrestling school, basically. And Jamie is starting to be in on the state this time, JCIs. And one of his bill star trainees is Terrence Garb. Beauty and Beauty and Beast and all that stuff. I mean, he's part of it. And Bill, Bill's pivotal to a lot of young guys career, too. They put Dustin Rhodes with Bill, his tag partner. Bill really helped Dustin Rhodes out in 89. He was young. I mean, that's when Bill became probably a utility player. He wasn't always pushed to top guy anymore.

1:12:29I mean, he was pushed as like right there at the top of the upper mid-car. He's not the main event guy, starting in 88 and 89. He has a brief stint. He books for Ron Fuller's USA Wrestling, which, to me, of the two, between them and Eddie Gilbert's Continental Wrestling Federation booking run, Dundee smokes it. Although Eddie Gilbert runs was, you know, beloved by newsletters, shockingly. And the guy- Really? Shockingly. But Dundee USA Wrestling was so good. So good. And people need to know- I gotta give that a better watch, because I love that air of Continental. I do admit it. I do love that air. It's fine. It's good. But USA, USA just- It's right. It feels right. And you got Gordon there. You got Ron Fuller there. I mean, he's done these booking. And it's really good. Blant out, Doug Burnus, Wendell Cooley, you know, Rocker O'Rpeyms, The Riches are there.

1:13:35Stomper. Ron Wright is amazing. And that run. Just great television. He's done these the booker for that very short run that they have. And again, after that, he just- he's in the Jared. And he gets more of all the Dallas. You know, when Jared gets to the Dallas, it definitely in 89 and really 90s when he- you know, he starts with John Tatum. And that's when they fight over Tessa. John Tatum's valet. Tessa leaves John for Dundee. And Tessa and Dundee were thinking real life too. But the infamous Tessa where Martin Loran said if I had a swing set like that, I would leave my backyard. I can't say that anymore. And that was- and that was a guy that was a preacher. And he went, you know, when the woman's got a great ass, she's got a great ass. But uh, yeah. So Dundee, pretty much from then on, is not pushed as a top-top guy anymore.

1:14:36And you know, he stays around and Memphis stuff. And I'm sitting 93. He shows up in WCW, Sir William. It's such a weird, yeah, the weirdest, the weirdest run is- is- is- yeah, Bill Dundee as Sir William. I looked this up too because I'm like, man, you have Bill Dundee under contract for- what was he there for about a year or so? I forget exactly when he comes in, but I know he's out by like October, November of 1994. One match. One match he wrestles one time against Ricky Stebowd on a house show. That's it. And I just- I just- I would love to see that. I would love to see Steve Dundee and I'm- and I'm fucking wrestling match. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, it's- but you know what? He added to the regal character. He made regal. Regal was a, you know, a blandish baby face. But when regal turns heel, it's the Sir William character that really gets him going on that Lord Steve and regal character. That regal would just, you know, dominate for the rest of his run, basically.

1:15:37I mean, it's Dundee with him that really built that act, you know, and then Dundee because, you know, he leads there and goes back to Memphis and he goes back to Memphis. And then 95 is when the infamous incident Wolfie D happens. In the locker room where they get into a fight and Bill pulls out a knife. Well, and Bill gets fired. That's a course that's Memphis. So they would eventually turn it to an angle where he's brought back, you know, Bill's son is Wolfie D's tag partner. So you got that whole dynamic going there. And that's the last great angle of Bill Dundee's career, basically, is that angle where he's feuding against PG-13. They lose the loser leaf town. They do the cyberpunk's gimmick where they're under mask. Where they bought for a run they were going to have in Mexico that they never had, but

1:16:38they still had the gear, so that's when they used it. So they had that and then that ended and then Jamie kind of went with his dad while Wolfie and Brian Christopher hooked us. He had that whole dynamic of Bill and Jamie and Jerry Laulner and gets Wolfie D and Brian Christopher, all these fathers and sons and all that jazz. And then that's basically, I mean, after that, you know, Memphis shuts down and Dundee is just, you know, he's around working in D's and doing stuff like that. He's a convention guy at this point now, you know. He's a convention guy, you know, but he's still visible, still working and still doing great stuff, you know, for the area people want to come see him. But I think the greatest, what if we build on D and we're talking about booking is, I mean, let's be honest. I mean, I think the best you wrote definitely needed to, you know, to take a break. Yes. He needed to pass the break to somebody in 87. You know, he needed to take a break in 87 or whatever.

1:17:41Dundee would have been a, he's there. Dundee would have been a perfect guy to step in. Oh, with that roster too. Oh, yeah. And let Dundee have a breath. You know, let him get his juices back. So when you start going back to 87, you know, and you got, you know, a starcake coming up or what have you, I mean, whenever you want to, you know, he wants to come back, he's come back refreshed as far as creatively. And they, they should have done something like that with him. You know, Dundee should have been, you utilize better in that type of role as a booker. You know, he was in Crockett as well because they had somebody there that could do it. And there are other times too where, you know, Dundee could have been, Dundee could have been a guy in, and Dabbi should have been, he couldn't use more as a great man. Yeah. It could be a negative bond. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that that ultimately is the one of the bigger disappointments in his career is that, you know, after that mid-south booking run, he just never really gets, you know, a couple of Memphis times after that. But never quite, yeah, he never gets like another chance to go and book, which is crazy

1:18:42given the success of Mid-South when he was booking. It's just, it's wild. But that we start to get into an era where people hold those books and never get, you know, in the years before that, it was like, oh, my six months are up. You know, it's your turn. But, you know, Dusty didn't want to give it up very often. And then, you know, now, you know, over the next, there was a few of places where the booking, you know, there was booking availability. But yeah, WCW should have probably kicked the tires on doing that. But at that, you know, they, they, they, by any three there kind of dumb too. So they probably, well, he's on the committee. Yeah, it's a committee. It's a committee, which is, yeah, that's, that's, you're never, that's never going to, committees are rough. That doesn't, probably ever work. Yeah. No, no. You know, another great what if would done D is, you know, he leaves Memphis at the end of 83, just a savage is coming in. And then you go back to the whole Dundee Savage. Yes, yes. I'm, I'm working on a series that I should have something. I'm going to talk to Tony Richards about that pretty soon. He's going to come on the show. And we're going to talk about the Savage Law or a few to, but Dundee is

1:19:44central to that as well because, well, it's been to a story you believe. There's two stories. There's two distinct stories about what happened. But I, the people that I would trust, I, it's the sucker punch story. I mean, even even Lanyd kind of went along with it. Yeah. Later on in life, that, that Randy sucker punch bill instead of, you know, the pistol weapon. So obviously this is during the law or, you know, Savage and the, and the outlaw promotion, I see W there going to have shows. Yeah, they're going to Memphis shows. They're heckling everybody. Jerry Jarrett's just like the norm. Don't listen to him. Just let him go or whatever. Dundee is at a gym that savages that they have a confrontation one week. And, you know, then it happens again, but this next time Dundee's ready to go, he's got a gun with them. And, you know, Savage and his crew roll up and then that's now where the story deviates is, is, you know, was it a sucker punch? Was it a pistol whip? What was it? But yeah, everybody that I trust, it was the sucker punch. I think, you know, and Dundee's jar got fucked up for the process and the enemy's time

1:20:49and everything. Oh, but the whole thing was meant because Dundee hit with head was wearing tights. He had much of a man on the back of it, which he wore, but that was the catalyst. Right, right. And, and Debbie comes who Savage and Debbie comes had a pat, you know, had a deal. And Debbie comes, told him about it and that pissed him off, of course. And that's where all that really got going. What do you think else? Of course, you had the whole rivalry thing, but that really set it off. And that happened to fall of 82. But yeah, Dundee and Savage never cross paths. Um, like Dundee left, Savage comes in, Dundee does some shots in Memphis a couple of days, but he's never in the ring with Savage. They never rust. Yeah, I know that there's a lot of career. Right. There was stories that Savage was possibly coming into Mid-South as well. And that, you know, Dundee was just kind of uneasy about that too. I don't know. You know, I heard that.

1:21:50I read that a little bit this week. I don't know that I haven't seen that elsewhere. Is that true that that was looking at Savage and bringing him because that all mean, my God, if you're adding Randy Savage to that Mid-South holy crap. And he, he, I don't think Dundee was the main decision maker on that. Build just, I don't think Bill trusted Randy. And how could he? He brought Lanyan. Yes, because you can trust Lany. But you could not trust Randy as a psychopath. Yes. Yeah, he brought me, but Randy, it took the Memphis run to get people to realize that Randy could do business. Right, right. That you could harness that craziness into a way to do business. Because I think it worked with, he think it worked with Jared. Right. The Lord. Yeah, right, right. You know, so, but yes, so that's just that the shit that that's the reality of the shit that was going on in those days, you know. And Dundee was so pivotal on some of the people's careers, Tommy Rich's career. Dundee was pivotal in, you know, early tag partner.

1:22:54Dundee, you know, basically helped transform Steve Kern into this boring-ish type of guy and to, you know, helping him bridge it to the fabs, you know, to become one of the fabs was him. And Dundee were a great tag team in 82. I mean, just, yes. Dundee was this guy who was such a, you know, a beneficial person to Memphis in so many different ways. And people even know, you know, he was definitely, you know, one of those, you know, cogs to run the territory, to run that territory as successful as it was. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, there will never be another build on D. There will never be another territory like Memphis. Oh, there certainly never be another build on D. So that, that was, that was great Chris. Really appreciate that. Anything else on, on build on D before we let you have the rest of your night back? Um, I mean, just, I would suggest people watch, watch to his best stuff because, I mean,

1:24:00you're going to see a guy who is good, I mean, he wrestles his back like fights sometimes. And he throws some of the best punches you'll ever see. And it's just, he's so damn good at being a superstar build on D. You know, nobody could be like him, you know, he, and there's a big face for a heel, you know, nobody could be like him. And when he had it turned up to 100, I mean, you couldn't stop it. I mean, he was a force. So, um, yeah, just watch the build on D, man. And just so much is accessible to, which is great about Memphis is that you, you know, like on, just on YouTube, you type in build on D. You're going to get it. I saw a playlist. It was like the best to build on D and it was like 490 matches or whatever. I mean, there's, there's a ton out there. So yeah, we, we, we, we, the 85 heel turn on TV with law or, you know, I mean, I'm going to lure him onto some of the burger rolls. But I think that's a, I think, but you know, like, there's a bunch of evacuation charitable places and economists all over the country here. And like, we, there for, uh, for the rest of the Punjabi Company of Detroit, uh,

1:25:01just a few days later, both immunology, I mean, staying in the agricultural campus, I mean, when we, where for a long time and when I was a soapista, wasn't supposed to die because I had trained impact on people in theseぇ Macji le- the winning the belt. I mean, just, it's just, it's just wild. How, how we just transform from a little thing to such a big thing. And then we're a tag team at that time at, at that point. So, yeah, I mean, it's just, there's so much out there. And that's the great thing about Memphis is, you know, it's public domain, basically. And there's just so much out there that you can watch. So, yeah, the superstars won the great. So I'll tell you that. Absolutely. For sure. For sure. So Chris, this was awesome. I'm glad you did this. I'm glad you were able to come on here and help us out. Oh, man. Yeah, we're going to do this again sometime very soon. We can't let this be a thing where every five years, we can't be every five years. Got to be much sooner. Got to get Joe involved as well. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:26:02Yeah, really, really appreciate you doing this. Again, patreon.com slash between the sheets, between the sheets on your free podcast app as well. But again, really want to recommend the patreon show. If you if you loved our deep dives, the things that we used to do here on patreon, the deep dives, that's what you guys are doing on a, a near weekly basis at patreon.com slash between the sheets. So just great, great stuff, a great value for your money. I'm an avid listener. So I was more than happy to have you on here and talk, talk some build-on-deaf. So you're off to hook on modern wrestling. You don't have to talk about any modern wrestling. I'm going to make Jesse to that. Although, I'd love to have your time. I'd love to have a discussion sometime soon about modern wrestling with you because I think we have a lot of similar thoughts about what's going on in the world these days. So maybe now you next time, we'll put a pin in it next time. We'll have that talk. But now let's just say that a lot of people are very lucky to have such great athleticism in wrestling right now because if there wasn't for that, oh boy. Yeah. All right, Chris. Thank you so much. But yeah, it's awesome being on here.

1:27:07And you guys do great work. Thank you. I've always done great work. Yeah, man, you'll just keep that up. Absolutely. We're not going anywhere. Mostly Joe says for the haters. We have to stay alive. We have to live without live all the haters. But I also enjoy doing it too. So there's twofold. But yeah, we got to, you know, more than anything. And we always shout you guys out about this as well. Like we need to keep doing what we're doing because a lot of these, a lot of other people aren't doing this anymore. You know what I mean? A lot of other people are chasing engagement. They're chasing jobs with companies. We're not interested in doing that. We're not interested in getting hired by these companies. We're not interested in doing, you know, PR interviews or whatever and getting none of that stuff. We need to keep this alive. Whatever we just did there for the last hour and a half because once this is gone, I don't know if it's going to get replaced. Once once you guys hang it up, I don't know if there's going to be another show that's ever going to be like, put in the sheets ever again. So we need to keep this alive because when we're done, it's all over. So we're getting old. So it might be done sooner

1:28:12than later. But anyway, Chris, thank you so much again. Patreon.com slash between the sheets and I bet you the sheets on your free podcast apps as well. Chris, thank you so much. We're coming on here and talking a little bit of bill done. All right, folks, we're going to take a quick break. I'm going to get Jesse Collins on the line and we'll talk about Sunday nights main event. We'll talk about the age issue and pro wrestling and so much more. So just stick with us then. We'll be back in just a moment. All right, we are back on the flagship. Thank you so much to Chris Zelliner for coming on and talking about bill Dundee also talking about whoop there it is versus whoop there it is. A topic we had to talk about with Chris. I'm glad we finally got to it. But we had mentioned or I had mentioned at the top of the show that we were going to have a special guest for the second half of the show and we do indeed it is Jesse Collins of the gentleman's wrestling podcast right here on the voice wrestling podcast network Jesse. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for inviting me. Absolutely. So long overdue for us to do audio on any topic. This in

1:29:13particular, we had been trying for the like the last month or so and we're going to get to that topic here in a little bit. We have another topic we need to start off with first. But we have been wanting to talk about the age issue and pro wrestling for yeah, you came to me with that topic idea. I don't even know how many weeks ago and due to my schedule being a disaster, we couldn't make it work. And then I finally just stole your idea and I was like, Hey, why don't we just do it on the flagship? So I took your booking. But that's all right. That's all right. Because we're going to still talk about it. I think it's going to be a lot of fun and it's going to be a nice big picture discussion to talk to talk about. So hold on one second. Yeah. So from my perspective, so of course, as you said, we've been trying to make this topic work for my show and you're a busy guy. Like I understand that I'm not upset with you at all about that. However, you know, then you come to me and you're like, Oh, let's, you think we can do this on the flagship. And I said, Okay, that's good. You know, that's probably good for my brand to come on here on the flagship and talk and hopefully reach some new people and we're like, Yeah, we can do that. And okay, great. And then a couple of days after that, which message is me. And he goes, Hey,

1:30:19can you watch Sun and Night's main event too? Because we want to talk about that. And I'm like, God damn. So I'm good. I'm good. I'm really good. I went from having you on my show. I could produce a little content on my end. That's somehow to talk about this, you know, this topic about age and wrestling. That's somehow ended up with me on a Monday morning, watching Lil Yachty versus Baron Corbin. I'm good. I'm good at what I do. This was Sun and Night's main event was the first like full length WWE show that I have watched in I think several years. I feel like I randomly watched like a a PLE like in like 2024 from like start to finish. And I have like I was just like so bored that I ended up watching it. And then I can't even remember what it was. It was like no mercy or fantasy. I don't think they've had a no mercy in a long time. Well, you know, it was a roadblock under the line. It was definitely. It was something random. It was like in

1:31:21July. I forget what what even happened on it. I might have even actually know what that you know, what's going to happen is we're going to get someone that's going to say they did do a no mercy. It was like last year. You reviewed it. I'm not going to remember that I review. Yeah. That's also what happens. I don't remember anything. I probably wrote a review for the website on this random because there's no way I watched it didn't like do any content on it. So but I forget what it was. This is the first time I've watched it. I was actually thinking that I have only watched I think one full WWE match before in 2006 before this show. I watched OBAFM E versus Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania because that was like a pre show that was on ESPN. And I think I watched I must have watched just highlights of like the Roman Reigns versus CM Punk match for WrestleMania. But that's all I've seen. So I'm kind of coming in fresh. I know I keep up with the product like I like I pay an attention to what's going on and I kind of know the storylines, but I never watch. So I feel like I can at least forget someone of a fresh perspective to this. Yeah. So let's get right into that. That is that is the topic at hand.

1:32:22Sunday nights main event. There would be Sunday nights main event from the intimate confines of Peacock. No longer on NBC. They told them, how about you just do it on Peacock instead. So we're just on Peacock. We don't really have Jesse Venture is not around anymore. We're not really doing the nostalgia play anymore obsession plays a couple of times. I don't know because you watch any of the rebranded new Sun the serenade's main events or no, obviously. I have not. And honestly, it feels like it's very strange. Like you said, they started off kind of going hard with them. Like it's going to be a big deal. We're going to be on network TV. And once that kind of stopped, these exist. They're essentially like, is there a huge difference between these like the LeVac B, you know, PLE events? Just that you get like even worse finishes on this show on these shows. Like that, that's probably the only thing. But they were a huge deal when they were going to be on NBC and they were going to be these big nostalgia plays and the whole code is going to be involved. The Jesse Venture is going to be involved and all that sort of stuff. And then very quickly, that all just went away. And now they're just checking boxes and just do it. Yeah. And tractionally obligated professional wrestling TV shows at this point.

1:33:25Oh, the wall system. Like the way WWE like gives out its matches and stuff is very strange. Like they basically, nothing ever happens on Raw's Smackdown. Like there are no matches of consequence ever happened on those shows. And their top stars almost never wrestle on them. I think like CM Punk is like five matches on WWE TV this year. And like Cody Rhodes is like four. Like even like, like Roman only has one, but I think everyone understands Roman barely works anyway. But like even guys that you think are around a lot, like they never wrestle. So like there's no big matches given away on Raw's Smackdown. And maybe part of that is that they also have disarrayant made events. So they want to give away some stuff there. And then they also have all their their their peelies and things like that. But it's very I don't think they have a great like balance in like spreading out like matches of importance across all of their programming. All they definitely do not. No, they definitely do not. It makes it wild to think that there are a lot of people that devote, you know, six hours of of a week, you know, to watch all this first run, don't even think that like again, I watched this show. And I guess what I'll say about it is that

1:34:30like I really didn't enjoy it. I thought it was really bad. I actually thought it was going to be much worse. Like I thought it would be like unbearable. Like like like I wouldn't be able to like I just have to tap out and be like, sorry, I tried to watch it. I couldn't do it. I just Oh yeah, and they're never that they're never that bad. They're never that. They're fun bad sometimes, but they're never that. Yeah. And I was like and I was like, you're not seeing it. They're not total nuts. I'm like, I'm like, this is a product that's not for me at all. I don't like a lot of the things that they're doing. However, I can see why maybe some people like some of the things that are going on. But I still question like, I understand there's all these like maniacs out there that watch all this stuff. But I do, I do think about like the people like the John Pollock's of the world, like normal regular people that like watch like WW like six hours WW programming each week, because they just have to. And I just like, man, how do they do it? That's impossible. You really do have to turn your brain off like it really does kind of make sense like the way data analyzes them. You have to grade them. It occurred. You have to. You can't really hold

1:35:32their product any standard at all. No, you certainly cannot. So did you watch the pre show? I did because so I initially was not going to watch the pre show because I was like, I don't fucking care. It's the kickoff show. The Sunday nights. How did you watch the pre show? I watched the pre show very legally. And I don't want to tell you how legally I did. But I don't know why I think it was on YouTube, right? Wasn't it legal? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know because I didn't watch it. I kind of like was going to be like, oh, check out this Domisterio Joe Henry mansion. Probably not that long. I'm not going to watch the whole pre show with like the fucking miz talking. You don't like that. They're going to break down the match. 20 years of the miz. They were they were plugged in. I can't believe it. I talked about that with Chris. We were talking about how guys come in and out of territories and and like the miz has been there for 20 fucking years. And they're like, oh, we're celebrating 20 years of the miz. I'm like, oh, God. And but like I don't need to say that. I was like, I'll watch this Joe Henry Domisterio mesh. But like I opened up on peacock. Like couldn't find it. Like just gave up.

1:36:34Like I put in so little effort. They had a chance for me to check in on dirty Dom in a Joe Henry who I do know that Joe Henry came out and he had an incredible booboo face. Yeah. So that okay. So that's exactly why I was I was not going to why it is available for free on YouTube. I watched it again very legally. But on YouTube of course. But that was the best part about it. I was not going to watch the pre show. I was like, I don't really give a shit about Joe Henry versus Thomas Stewart if I'm being honest. But then I saw I believe it was Matthew, right? Botanham A.M. Matthews video of the booboo face that Joe Henry had come into the ring. And I was like, well, now I have to watch it. And this guy had in all time or I don't know what news he got. I it couldn't have just simply been that you're going to lose this match to Dominic. Mysterio like that. It couldn't have been that they're they must have asked him for 50% pay cut or something right before he got in there. He called his wife. His wife was like, I think he got to take it. And he's just like God, I don't know what I don't know what happened or his dog died or so. I don't know what the fuck. But Joe Henry comes to the ring and he is

1:37:36miserable. He looks so fucking upset about something. And he's trying to do the Joe Henry stuff. He's like pointing. He's kind of like waving his hands. But he's so mad. He's so fucking upset about something. I don't know what it was. But I had to watch this match now to see what was making this man so upset. And it was just kind of a boilerplate bad Joe Henry match that he lost the Domestero because of course he just Joe Henry wasn't going to beat Dominic Mysterio. So I don't I it couldn't have simply been that there had to be another reason why Joe Henry was so upset. But this is an all time or boo boo phase. This is a man who like the pinnacle of his career by his own admission was getting absolutely geeked out by Randy Orton at WrestleMania like this is a man that does not hold himself to a high standard right right. So what got him for section or things like that. So I mean we shouldn't maybe we shouldn't speculate maybe some some some very unfortunate yeah it had I mean that's kind of what I'm saying. No joking aside like I don't because I don't believe that it was simply that like before he got through guerrilla though I got you're gonna lose this match and he's like what the hell you know he's flipping tables. I'm not

1:38:38losing that geek like this Joe Henry. I mean he could not have been that something else had to have happened because this was an all time or sad face coming to the ring especially a guy who's whole gimmick is I smile and I happy and I'm jovial and this man was none of those things at all. So this show starts we get quavo narrating a video so the big thing at least for like the first 15 minutes show hot land they're in Atlanta. Hot land they're in hot land that's what Michael Colcaf saying we're in hot land which I love that's a classic someone someone on her discord said I'm a Atlanta resident I just want to tell you how much it makes my blood boil when people say hot land and then that led to everybody bringing up their towns most annoying you at you at San Fran for San Francisco shi town for you know Chicago you know the classic like you know bean town bean town I think some guys maybe like from like the more inner city portions might because sometimes I've heard them call it the bean but certainly no one I know calls it bean town.

1:39:40The six remember when the six was trying to be a town is like Linda Cohn center like it only works as a sports center highlight writers uh headlight writers leaving bean town like so 2004 or like when they had they're showing like highlights of you know Jacobi L's barrier whatever and it's like bean town and turmoil or whatever yeah yeah jubil's party request trade or whatever it's like that's all it's used for is for headlines um yeah like you're talking about Michael Colcaf he's plugging quavo's new song is like not selling a lot of albums with that endorsement like no and Wade Wade Barrett tells us nobody quite does drip the way Lil Yachty trick in quavo do and I'm just like these just incredibly uncool individuals just trying to sound cool please stop I honestly thought the commentary would be more annoying like I thought I'd have to like turn it on mute or like put on the Spanish breakfast but it honestly like I just had such a loose dander for it that I don't want to say it wasn't bad but yeah it's not good but it's it's not it's it's it's acceptable bad it's

1:40:45probably the best way to put it and so like quavo comes out he's doing like this like he's auto-tune singing he's got like a shopping cart and he's got these signature glasses I don't know what they say on that list so this is the second time quavo has really pissed me off because oh I do tell about the first story so a lot of people probably don't know this or wouldn't assume to tell me but I'm a huge Lana Del Rey fan and Lana Del Rey did her first ever stadium show at Fenway Park it was like this kind of surprise show it wasn't like she was on tour it was announced only like a few months before hands and it was the first stadium show she was ever gonna do and my my twin sister got me was very generous and he got me tickets for my birthday and so it was you know it's gonna be like this super cool concert to go to and unfortunately for Lana Del Rey and all those people that were there they had a thunder and lightning warning that prevented the concert from taking place at the schedule time and so we were all like huddled inside Fenway Park waiting for the lightning to clear

1:41:49and there's a much like Wendley stadium there's a curfew that they have to adhere so what ended up happening was she did the concert but it had to be really scaled down in like the terms of the set list like she just had like to go for like 70 minutes instead of like two and a half hours and unfortunately um because she had like this was supposed to be a huge deal she had a lot of like people coming out and doing songs with her and things like that and because she had them like flew them in for the show she kind of had to use them even though like most people in the attendance wanted her to do like her own songs right but if you fly somebody in you can't say uh correct so you're not you're you're just sitting the back while I do my set so she does this she does this song and then she has her partner come out for this duet duet and it's Quavo and I'm not gonna like I didn't know who Quavo was like he came out and I'm like who is that my sister's like oh it's I think it's one of the guys. What sort of obstacles? Yeah yeah yeah yeah or me goes yeah and I'm like what the fuck is this and she's saying some duet that like it's an unreleased song and I think if you were really really into it like you'd be like yeah I got to see this cool thing but I'm like get

1:42:51this fucking Joker off the stage she also had the Walmart Yodler out there too which I don't know if you know who that guy is. I didn't know he was so he's like a kid that was yodeling at a Walmart like 15 years ago and then he wasn't that long ago I don't think it was that long ago. Well apparently he was a child and he came out and he's like an adult. Oh so nobody did nobody know who he was that I was like I was like who is that and my sister's like I think that's the Walmart Yodler kid and like there was a girl next to us and she was like oh was he wearing the did he have the bow tie on at least. Yeah he was wearing his whole outfit. He's like I know he's like a 19-year-old man at this point. I was unfamiliar with this this this this this Walmart Yodler and I'm like who the hell is this guy and she's like oh it's the guy he's a singer now and I'm like so she has a limited set list and she's wasting it on the green kid coming out. Yeah I was saying Zonde coming out next or what are we doing. Anyway Kuehyev comes so basically my takeaway they do this whole thing like the show starts at eight or I don't actually I didn't watch

1:43:52your live so I don't know what time the show actually starts but let's just zoom it says let's just say it's supposed to start at it's at top of the hour and we get like our walk-ins like our guys coming out and yeah people in the rolling luggage yeah yeah yeah rolling luggage and then I have Kuevo and they've got the Kuevo does this intro video then it comes out and it just bombs because like I don't think anyone cares about Kuevo's solo album that like no one's ever heard this song before it's just really strange to do this and this is you see this like in live sports all the time now is like you turn on the game because you think it starts at eight but then there's like the introductions and like the pre-game stuff. Oh the NBA is the worst thing. You're a big NBA guy too you know that there's no sport worse than the NBA you turn on ESPN and it's just like all right this game's and I have limited time in my life these days so I'm like all right cool this game interests me I'm gonna watch this and it's 735 and it's like all right so the tip off. WWE's doing this because they have people from ESPN and stuff that are working for the company. Yes exactly and like this is what real sports do right we do that kind of this stuff

1:44:56and we get celebrity involved things like that the problem is not no single real sports fan wants to watch any of this anyway like it's something that real sports fans hate networks like it because it promotes synergy and you can sell some ads and and all that kind of stuff like that keeps people watching but like from a user your experience everyone would just want to turn on the game and have you turn on the ESPN that NBA game at eight o'clock and the balls being tossed up over the center. Right be perfect that would be my ideal world or like you get one minute of like oh here the starting line up set guard like that and then you get to like no one wants the 15 20 minute you know actually the game starts at this time but back to the desk and here Kendrick spewke out some bullshit and yeah and WWE's copying that so we're off to a bad start because we got you know you got this this Luiati versus Baron Corbin yeah well and also I should know too the quavos out here and when he comes out he does a song so he's he's he's he's he sings this song well nobody wants concert it's a generous turn I don't think he's holding a microphone and

1:45:57things are coming out of his mouth is probably the best so I should put it but they nobody in the history of wrestling has ever wanted a concert to be on wrestling it is such a niche thing to do and I do not understand now I know that there's probably money involved in this I'm sure fucking quavo is is it who knows there's money changing hands they're not doing it because they want to the record labels connected to either peacock or something yeah they're not doing it because they want to there there's a reason but never in the history of wrestling has anybody wanted there to be a concert on a wrestling show now it's one thing to have a band play a guy's entrance music that's one thing and that and even then I'm like those have failed a lot of times as well but nobody ever wants the show to stop for your fucking band to play it is never worth and it's also was such a niche thing to assume because most people that are at this wrestling show I mean the chances that everybody listen to this you know they don't get you big with his artists they don't get the big time it's not like you know Taylor Swift's gonna come out of this WWE show but even her she would get booed and wrestling fans would get annoyed or whatever I just mean like they always

1:46:59have like all right now it's gonna be quavo and you're like half the people in this fucking building have no idea who quavo is half the people in this building don't like quavo there are some people that are probably there that like quavo but that's fine wcw they would have mega death on there I'm sure there's up several people at a at a nitro in 99 that were like hell yeah mega death but there was a lot of people that were like what the fuck is this like why is mega death on my show kiss bond rich even if it was a band I liked I don't want to like I could watch their music video yes I'd rather wrestling show yeah it's all the stuff that like people that make a lot of money and television executives think is a good idea but no actual person actually enjoys right and that it's like a sinner it sounds good it's a lot about wwe this like um then we have this match the opening match so the stipulation is that Lil Yachty my impression of Lil Yachty oh yeah right because you don't know how little yachty you're jumping in so I've heard of Lil Yachty before like he was in wwe like I understand he is a rapper of some no thing and my impression is that

1:48:05he's like now he's been around too much so like he doesn't feel like a celebrity anymore just like feels like somebody who's on the roster and it's like kind of like because this is like all of network television now is like celebrities on game shows celebrities on these reality shows things like that yeah like people that are very very available like and it kind of makes them like oh they don't have anything else going on so they're doing you know the traders and they're doing like celebrity big brother and then they're doing celebrity you know weakest link or whatever and um so like it makes it feel like these you make you feel like these people are less important celebrities because like oh Lil Yachty's got like a lot of time on his hands he's like like yeah I was like this is this guy having anything else to do like I tell Joe whenever the last PLE when he was involved I was like this has been have anything else to do but then to hang out at WWE show it's like what a sad life this man is like the anti rock where like the rock can never be around because he's so busy right this guy is just always available yeah so they do this thing and and and and so Lil Yachty can survive five minutes with Baron Corbin

1:49:13then Baron Corbin will put his I believe the US championship correct yes he is the United States uh had a way to champion and he had defeated strict Williams from that recently I think maybe it was at Summer Slam um so they do this whole thing where like Lil Yachty can survive five minutes and of course like Lil Yachty takes a few bumps and he gets a few like of those celebrity wrestler moves in like he's able to do a horror conrana and he like does a cross body off the top and does all that kind of stuff and Corbin can put him away at any second but he doesn't uh he's playing with his food yeah yeah yeah and then of course he fucks up at the last second and I think like he's going for like a top like a superplex and Lil Yachty like low blow zoom and the time it runs out and they get this matchup this this killed me a little bit uh I die a little inside watching this um but I I will say that like this was at least a creative thing and I think the fans were kind of into it by the by the time that the time elapsed and the idea was like oh shit Baron fucked up and here comes trick Williams I think that was actually pretty well done for

1:50:15what WWE does yeah yeah for sure I did you did you have any issues with the and obviously because you haven't been engaged with the story at all have you did you have any issues or or confusion with the heel face dynamics uh of Baron Corbin Lil Yachty because that has been one of the big issues with trick Williams we're gonna talk about it in this unit title match is it's impossible to understand that trick is supposed to be the bay face despite the fact that he has a guy that comes out with him that interferes constantly and Lil Yachty at multiple times during this match his entourage like grabbed him and tried to get him out of the arena and that is the baby face which is not how baby faces act ever yes they are in history Baron Corbin I did think that Corbin was coming across kind of sympathetic because he's fighting off like 600 yes um the whole entourage and he's a great to this I think they protected Corbin enough in like making him come across like a complete dick like he's just like hitting Lil Yachty over and over again with his moves and the dancers are like he could finish him at any time but he's fucking asshole so he's just gonna keep beating up this guy um so I think that was okay but I did make me think of it um so trick this

1:51:22is the I think the first full trick Williams match I've ever seen before in my life I think I maybe saw him in NXT once or twice um and I want I have to say I was not impressed at all um oh he's he's he's horrible yeah he is the shits and and I've I promise I was gonna do a little trick Williams rant here uh he is absolutely fucking terrible when this match was over I honestly earnestly thought and and and I'm being a hundred percent serious when I say this I thought Lil Yachty looked better than trick Williams in his match with Baron Corbin then trick looked it trick is horrible he can't run like he was he there with he that that's what that's what sent me this time I was watching him and he was doing this he's just a boring worker not dynamic nothing that jumps off to page doesn't do anything exciting nothing that's that that that that would ever make you remember that you watch this man wrestle ever and then there was a point during this match where he turned around and he was running at Baron Corbin in the corner Baron was and he was just going to

1:52:22do like a clothesline in the corner Baron Corbin and he turns around and he's got these little tiny steps like he's got that Becky Lynch rope running thing where it takes him like two minutes to get from one corner to the next I'm like can we get a little bit of velocity here, Mc we can we try to make it look like we're trying to hurt our opponent we put a little bit of a little and a little bit of emphasis on anything that we're doing the problem is that he was trained in the system and this system takes that out of you but he's not the only we're about to talk about a match here a little bit where I think that they've broken a couple guys that used to have a little bit of a loss and used to have a little bit of speed but I think trick is horrible and this is a guy who I thought had a lot of potential and Joe and I were on record that this was going to be the guy that everybody thought Carmelo Hayes was the guy and we're like dude this guy is come on his is five foot seven and doesn't have that much charisma trick is the guy they're going to see trick and say that's our dude that's the guy we're going to push and that's exactly what happened they did push him and there was a point where you saw a lot of potential in trick Williams and I don't see it anymore I think he is the absolute shits in ring and it's WNV and you don't have to have all that much but you have to have to you have

1:53:26to have something that's still the case in WNV I know it's hard for people to believe that don't regularly watch there to be you still have to have some sort of in ring acumen to to to to move up the ladder and he will never get past the level that he's at with the work that he has because he is just not a good worker at all he's a system guy and you could tell that that system is beyond broken because this dude has there you you don't believe that you're watching this guy fake fight it all you just believe you're watching a guy doing a series of very choreographed things and it like nothing comes natural nothing feels like it's in the flow everything is just every move he's thinking about every and there's just no the guys at big dude the guy is probably a very good athlete the fact that there's just no speed no velocity no move on any of his work is just it's I'm I'm dragging on him but I'm probably dragging more on their training system because they've that's what they want they want this guy to be the way he is here and I just can't imagine it because he is he's the shits he he's just no good at all he so he comes in he just like whiffs on these two heel kicks oh yeah yeah the first thing he does just whiff on these two

1:54:30heel kicks and my impression like I haven't seen a lot of trick and like most of my what I think about or know about him comes from like what you guys did some of the flagship which is like this guy's got charisma but he's just he hasn't improved in the ring it's it's becoming a real struggle so he whiffed some of these two heel kicks and he's like he's doing like these spinning forms and I'm like this guy has like kind of some trouble like with like positioning and like landing stuff why is he doing all these spins and stuff before all of his moves and it's because that's what he's in the performance center and I noticed that later on this show and I'm like because it's all like this showy kind of like weird like presentation of moves that they really like teaching I don't know who's teaching his Norman smiley teaching everyone to do this who's spinning yes spinning yeah like who's teaching all this but it seems like something that's pretty ingrained and you want to know what I I thought about this was Corbin has like this control period right where he's doing the he's basically wrestling like rain of tarot triple H with like

1:55:30chin locks and he's healing it up and stuff like that and it occurred to me it's like they brought Corbin back because they they genuinely think that he is a good worker and they're putting him in the ring with trick because they think that he can teach trick lambs how to work like they think that Corbin wrestles the style they want their guys to wrestle and he's seen as like a good hand to teach trick lambs that's what they think um which is alarming because I don't think Corbin was tearing up the indie circuit when he was outside well you were watching MLW then sir but uh but the idea is that Corbin is some sort of standard bearer for WWE like in ring wrestling yeah oh yeah really that's how it's gotten yeah that no you're absolutely right that they brought him in because they wanted a guy on the roster they could rely on exactly what this this what this match was about and this feud was about which was like Corbin work with trick and yeah you can be trick and then we'll trick trick we'll put you'll put over trick at the end and things like that and it's because they think of Corbin as

1:56:31like this steady veteran presence which is just insane um and I think Corbin like has okay fundamentals and things like that but he also wrestles the insanely boring style which is the main the reason why he didn't get over ever despite tons of repackaging and pushes and things like that um that hasn't occurred to the WWE management that this is a guy that never got over is somehow gonna teach this other guy how to get over with this work so um at the end Michael Cole says talk about resilience when talking about trick Williams who had a tons of help winning the match that's a deal based dynamics are insane they make no fucking sense at all you know of course they're they're piping in the chance for this which are really distracting because they're always in perfect unison and there always disappears when like some action happens like suddenly everyone is going whoop that trick and then like right is Baron Corbin like comes in with the clothesline everyone just stop nobody does the channel that is what I always bring up when people that that don't understand or or we'll say that they can't they can't hear what do you mean what

1:57:32I don't know how do you know nobody chance don't end when Michael Cole starts talking then everybody in the arena doesn't say oh wait Michael Cole's talking everyone's stuff like that's not how chance work and I thought about this throughout the show it really undermines the people who are actually over yes Oba Femi is over you don't have to put in chance for Oba Femi but they do they show they you know they show the people in the audience they can't fake that I think maybe they have like AI people doing the Oba Femi thing um but like they show the people dancing and doing his little strut and like it's like yeah this guy's over but like when he's getting the same piped in chances like Alexa Bliss and Liv Morgan are doing like a kind of like makes the guys seem lesser like if this was 1998 in Stone Cold Steve Austin's glass shattering was getting like the same kind of reaction as like I don't know like Median or someone like that like it wouldn't you wouldn't make Stone Cold Steve Austin look like a star it's really kind of backward logic in a lot of ways

1:58:35it's it's and that it's big note that I had is that and they do over trick too I think trick is kind of over I don't think he's over to the extent obviously when they when they pipe in the ram big and loud you know say whatever the fuck for his like the ram truck it's the little decibel meter yeah I don't think is that right I mean it's red I mean they have this arena shaking it was red for Alexa Bliss too and I was like that was when I noticed it I was like why are they doing this um they have live and louder whatever the fuck it is don't be don't be fans they love saying that trick or whatever they're saying yeah yeah no they do it's topically debate earlier on the show yes it wasn't he but uh no they do like he's kind of over but then they pipe it in so much and I'm like you guys don't have to do that it's so uptraces over and that's a big yeah but but even even and you could tell in this entrance for people that if there's ever if you ever want to know a tell for how do you know how do you know that these are piped in chance why do you guys always rant about this and nobody else does I don't know why nobody else does I don't know why Dave and Brian never do I don't know what I don't know what no standard right the

1:59:37problem I don't know why no standard but here here's a great example when trick lambs comes out and the the ram live and loud or whatever the fuck it's called is that read the entire time for whoop that trick whoop that trick he gets to a point on the entrance ramp he's not even in the ring yet he's like five feet away from the ring goes away it stops and right it stops for a second and then after a software second then Michael Cole explains the story of the match why was this ram live and loud crowds so nuts for whoop that trick and going for two straight minutes screaming whoop that trick then they immediately stop and then immediately when they stop is when the ring announcer starts when Michael Cole starts talking or like you said a control period of a wrestler starts and everybody will chant whoop that trick but then Baron starts beating them up and then all of a sudden and stops it's that is where it's not even the pop at the beginning because I can buy I can buy the crowds all of a sudden start chip it's the end it's the end the end the end and if you can't tell if you don't notice this I don't know if you're either just lying to yourself or what you're

2:00:40doing but these are on this show in particular it was very obvious because these matches were not very over when the bell rings and double to be and that's the other thing too nobody gives a fuck these crowds do not care about anything the happens once the reason for that you know that's you know all the finishes on this show basically taught you that why would you get invested in any type any like basic aspects of pro wrestling when you know we're getting a DQ or run in or things like that don't move on because we got to talk about this next match we did get told that crown jewel emanate from re-ad tickets available soon rich so I saw that yeah I don't know anyone anyone wrote the link down on the voice of wrestling affiliate link if they want to be heading out to the peoples republic like the peoples republic the king is not the people's republic well usually countries that have peoples republic in front of it are democratic republic usually are the opposite are not yeah well yeah that's uh um it's definitely not the the kingdom of Saudi Arabia if you

2:01:40wanted to head out to re-ad those tickets are part of re-ad season yeah he said uh my co-host uh thanks to his majesty who made the announcement earlier today that can you imagine there has to be somebody like they're I don't know who it is well there must be somebody who runs into the room and is like honey honey like I got an idea perfect I'll hold the whole like re-ad season in saudi 2030 is based around trying to get people to actually come to saudi Arabia yes yes um and the idea is that like tourism will be an avenue for them to to grow their economy in a you know a world that chipped in away from petroleum um so they're doing all sorts of stuff like this you know I'm a I'm a big roller coaster enthusiast I sometimes talk about this in the discord and like they built the saudi's built like this insane theme park that has like by far the largest roller coaster in the world it's like 200 feet taller than any of the roller coaster and has a crazy launch and it just looks awesome and like part of music I don't want to ride that so bad I'm like oh but I I can't like I I respect journalists too much to go there

2:02:41like um but the idea is that they're trying to get people to go there yeah anyway this next match well you can go to russlamania on uh and something the chat was pointing out that russlamina is happening next year we still don't know what they have not announced the date just know that russlamina is occurring sometime in 2027 that that's hilarious that they have an announcement yeah it might be in like november it's whatever it's coming don't worry there will be a russlamania next year that's good to know um this next match rich yeah for the future of wwe well i do i have thought this this next match so so oboe femy versus bron breaker and kind of the story here is that paul hamin is kind of like he's he's still a part of the vision but he's also infatuated with oboe femy yeah he sees he sees the potential in oboe femy yet it's probably shit this is like a real a real yes it's wearing the lines here storyline and the idea is kind of like hamin is he sees infatuated oboe

2:03:45femy and the vision guys are kind of like hey man what's going on here um and so he does the introductions for both of these guys um so the future of wwe it's going to be decided in this mid card match on like this dead special event that they've kind of given up on and up onto the actual big stars i loved i loved the framing that this match was to determine once and for all who the future star of w who's gonna lead to the future and it's yeah it's in the like the first hour of this second time on sunday night's main event because they had to move off of saturday so it's on sunday and it's on peacock and it's like this is the match that's going to determine once and for all who the future of this company is is this random ass match that can't I hate the framing of this kind of stuff like where it's like if you're oboe femy can you retire Brock Lesnar or your bron breaker and you've been on the main roster for like two years now like you your whole character should be i'm not the future of ww i'm the now of wwe and like

2:04:45they're fighting for like to be like ranked number one in key flaws baseball prospectus rankings or something like that like the future like these guys should want to beat the champion right world champion right now but they can't be because of reasons um that we might discuss later on this fuck yes um so like um you know every fan has their phone out during oba's entrance which is what ww wants and i think the presentation of oba is really good i think there's a lot of similarities between his entrance and triple h's entrance and we know one thing that that Paul Leveck cares about a lot it's entrances that's what he really is passing on he's always instructing the new thing every single time yeah well yes though you know he has the spotlight and things like that um you know when he gets in the ring uh so he's got all this stuff um this stuff this it's not the first i've seen oba feme a few times um because i am interested in him like i've oh i watched some of his NXT stuff yeah yeah um and this match starts in this is my

2:05:46favorite part of the entire show was like the first like two minutes of this match where they're doing all this stuff like we're like they're trading shoulder you know tackles trying to knock each other over and that's that the idea putting over like these are two like incredible athletes brine breaker was a was an all-american uh kanna sa stay and oba feme was like an scc champion in the shoppie yeah he's big free gathly it's going on each other and they they do this nice spot where breakers on the apron and oba feme's on the outside and breakers like runs across the apron like he's gonna do i don't know he's gonna do the kassat taun flip or something like that and oba jumps up and gives him like this big like basically like this palm striker like this chop right to his chest and it sounds great and breakers stops and he like like acts like he just got the winnocked out of him and it really sells the idea that like brine thinks he's like this this incredible athlete and he just got absolutely fucking hit like he's never been hit before by this guy oba feme yeah the crowd the crowd popped huge for that yeah this shit was awesome yeah um and then the match just got

2:06:49apart um because really because of like these w w trokes we got the mid match promo by brine breaker where he's like you're the future of what what are you the future of that's that was to let everyone know what the story is yeah just the announcer saying it and the billing of it in case you didn't 100% know brine breakers here to stop his max to tell you what it is and then of course we got like the performance in our special during breakers control period he's doing the chin locks he's doing the sleeper holds he's working over the body parts like this is what they want these guys to do this is what bearing carbons doing a trick Williams and this was breaker was doing and this is so boring um and it's you can kind of see why like when oba feme is wrestling brock lesnar like hey you just go out there and like throw bombs and the match will be like yeah they're right and those matches were pretty awesome and but when those guys are asked to kind of do anything else you can see why they they're choosing the the really short sprints instead of these any like more fundamental

2:07:51matches because it's just not there for either guy breakers further along the nobo but it's really not there um and then they do this thing so we do you have anything else that you want to get to finish uh no i would just say like and and bronze one of the guys that i was talking about before where he had a working style that that fit him he had a lot of velocity he was you know the this you know the early annex t brown breaker stuff was was good i mean it was it he was he was limited he's obviously a very limited worker at that time he still has a very limited worker because they still haven't figured out uh what to do with the guy but at least they knew that look you're you're a Steiner so what you're gonna do is you're gonna run at people and you're gonna give big shoulder tackles and you're gonna throw big bombs you're gonna do this crazy s spears where you land on your neck and the guy you're doing the spirit to might die when you're done but at least it had that aura and that that that you know that that little bit of danger in it but that can no no no we can't do that anymore and now brown breaker has slowed down and all that velocity and all that impact and

2:08:51all that danger and all that uneasiness about oh shit is he gonna it's gonna hurt himself or someone else it's all gone yeah it's all gone it's like his character is that in like his like you know his finishers like that but the mean potatoes the matches he's just every other guy yeah it's just every any guy that came out of that performance center he is just a system worker and turning a Steiner into a system worker is is absurd and ridiculous because I could look and I don't think the guy's a great worker but I see him and I know his lineage and he's got a great look and I've seen little there's little things that he can do if you can't figure out how to maximize brown breaker then you're you're lost you're absolutely lost and all the family's the same way too and we're gonna get to all the family here in a little bit because the way that they're treating him is it's gonna work well either for him but if you can't maximize these two guys and you can't figure out like that these two guys need to be pushed and need to be maximized as much as possible it's you that's the issue and and that is you know it's not oh brown breaker all you

2:09:53can't do this so you can't do that who fucking cares what he can't do like just do to accentuate what he can do for God's sake what are we doing it's infuriating and again I don't think brown breaker is a great worker that you want to have a rest of me in the main event with who goes 25 minutes he's never gonna be that guy but God if you can't figure out how to do something with that guy you're fucking lost it just oppresses me because I think this guy was anywhere else like if he was training wrestling anywhere else he would be so much better and he's not gonna end up going anywhere else because it doesn't work out in WWE because he was you know PC guy and a WWE guy he's probably not gonna go anywhere oh no he'll never do anywhere this is it and um brown breaker's done like he's done as a as a potential top guy oh I agree yeah yeah I was thinking of forking him too for sure they don't know it yet but it's true you can just tell by the way this whole thing is on around like he doesn't I think he knows he's not either and you can see it in the eyes too the eyes they wasted their time with him when they could have pushed him fast again last year a year a year and a half ago he could have been pushed and they did do it he wasn't ready he wasn't ready it wasn't turn yet it wasn't his turn yet Jesse

2:10:58and so uh this finished up to 10,000 people run out Logan Paul I guess I guess Logan Paul's like like like Gerald briscoe now like he just runs out and he's like a stooge is that is that is that so uh not nah sort of he's like you talked about how little yaddy is just always around and because he's always around his lost all of his aura that's Logan Paul look at Paul is one of the like when he came into WWE was one of the biggest like media stars in the world at that time now I hate that that's the true facts but it was that Logan Paul was a massive massive massive star when he came into WWE yeah Logan and his brother were like draw you know yeah combat sport draws and big stars and he's around to make all these dates um he's just around all the time and now he's like doesn't man he's just a wrestler on the roster he's just a guy really he's a hot Patterson running out you know to distract the referee well Vince McMahon you know gives hand shade McMahon you know hits stone cold with with the steel chair or something like that so like 10,000 people running out Logan Paul shows up that gets tossed out immediately

2:12:00thanks for coming so he made it to to Atlanta for about two seconds of work so he really is available um and then I one of the girls who is it now uh Maxine Maxine Maxine I only know Maxine as the person that like um like rare ripply got mad at people for someone said like oh you saw like during a house show or something like that and that was like a thing on my mind like that's all I know about Maxine oh that's why there was like a week of like Maxine takes where where yeah um so she they do this thing and and they they do this thing now which you guys have probably talked about but again as someone that doesn't always watch WWE like this is very jarring to me they do this thing with a camera zooms in real close on a wrestler and then they get taken out by someone off screen like if it's in a match like it would be like you know like oba family will be running around the I think Brian breaker will be running around the ring and the camera zooms in on Brian breaker and then oba family that comes out of nowhere and gives them like a shoulder tackle or something like that and this happens in all the matches like if a guy is going for his finisher and like a zoom

2:13:01in really close so then like you don't see that the guy who he's going to give the finisher actually has gotten up and can hit a counter or something like that so what this does is it serves as a tell that whenever they zoom in you know someone something is coming so they zoom in on oba family and of course Bronson Reed is somehow materialized in the ring with a steel chair and he hits Bronson Reed and Michael Cole goes like he's like he's going to sneeze he's like it's a it's a it's a big Bronson Reed um and then he in Bronson Reed beats up oba family gives him a splash from the top um the tsunami he gives him a tsunami he's less fat now so the tsunami isn't as good but yeah another guy like why are we why are wrestlers getting less fat we don't need we need more fat wrestlers what are we doing even as awesome before big barrel chested boy what's happening yeah and he's not that tall so he kind of has to be fat a little bit to be like a big guy um you know like like fat wrestlers have this thing we're like

2:14:01I call this like this is like the JD JD Drake line like JD Drake is like the Mendoza line for this right we're like if a wrestler is like fat like not in good shape they look bad but if they like are really fat then it's okay yes and like I think JD Drake like for a time he just like had this terrible look he had it it was on the belly the promise he had this big chest it was just a big old belly you need to have the big chest too he was just in this bed like and then he gained like 30 more pounds and now it's like oh now he's like a big guy that could move like like once like and it's like it like actually was better for him to be like actually fatter and I feel like Gronson Reed is going in the opposite direction where like if he's like 3 10 that's good he can come across as a monster but if he's like 265 is he gonna be as intimidating because it's not very tall um we'll see because he's probably gonna be working with Oprah Femi um yeah top like the part now I'm so rid of the I have a look at my notes now the Michael

2:15:04Collie I love I said it's up like he was sneezing because he's just like that's that's that's that's wait that's that's all right it's Bronson Reed just say it's Bronson Reed yeah it's like specifically said it's uh like big Gronson Reed is a like he's a he's like intimidated by the fact that Bronson Reed is in the professional wrestling ringer what it's so weird yeah so they and this whole thing like Oba has zero friends you know yeah yeah Rob modern wrestling baby faces are fucking losers with no friends who just constantly get beaten down by heels and it's amazing that nobody is over I can't I can't explain it so they do this they do this they they beat him down in whatever he's six on one beat yeah they showed a million replace this and they they go to the interview robot the back and she's like breathlessly she's like like Paul is like she runs like Kathy Kelly journalistic uh mastermind Kathy Kelly she sounds like she was just running to catch your bus when she comes up to Paul Heyman and she's like oh you must have something to say about what just we saw and then Paul Heyman's like I actually

2:16:06have a lot to say and then he like takes out his phone and he's like he says something like oh yes I do want to talk about what we just saw and he like walks away so here's my overall problem with this is that you have this match with these two young guys this was a match for the future it's in the future of world wrestling entertainment and the match is in the angle is really just about Paul Heyman and like what side Paul Heyman is gonna be on pretty wild isn't it which is this whole thing so I watched this match and so the future I'm like the future of WWE is Paul Heyman because that's what this storyline is about the storyline is what side is Paul Heyman on is he gonna turn on Braun Breaker is he gonna tease like he's gonna side with Oba and then turn back what does he think about his old unit beating up his his new guy that he's interested in which this is the same fucking thing this guy has been doing since 2013 when he turned on CM Punk and line himself with Brock Lesnar really he's been

2:17:07doing it since 2003 when he turned on Brock Lesnar and line himself with the big show but his entire fucking character and WWE is what side is he gonna be on and he's gonna make faces and the other guys are gonna make faces and the fans are gonna speculate on and the problem is is that Paul Heyman is a much richer uh more over more connective character in the annals of WWE than either Oba Femi or Braun Breaker is so whatever he decides he's going to captivate the audience he's gonna get the attention and this is all about fucking Paul Heyman and it's not about either of your young guys because this match was kind of supposed to be like okay like we know the main event is old this shit right we got all these old guys coding Randy in the main event of this we got pumpkin Roman like it's just it's a everyone it's been around for a million years but here's something fresh Oba Femi and Braun Breaker two guys under the age of 30 here's what is and this storyline is all about fucking 60 something year old Paul Heyman and what side he's gonna be on shaking his jowls and making faces and this guy's a fucking thief like he his character doesn't evolve he's been the exact same character his storylines are the exact same every time he says the

2:18:13exact same catchphrases like ladies and gentlemen by the way people talk about him like he's like this brilliant amazing performer like this guy hasn't done fucking anything in years and I'm watching his storyline and he you know he's gonna glob on Oba Femi because he sees Oba Femi as the guy who might be the next Roman Ren so he's gonna attach himself there and it's just it's it's it's it's really a detriment to the company um but he's got the stroke and he's and you know he's got the the ability to put himself on these things but this this whole thing was all about Paul Heyman that's all the storyline is gonna be all right because like it's gonna be so promo dependent and the guys doing backstage stuff and that's all Heyman's wheelhouse like he's not gonna help Oba Femi get over with this thing um so that's that's really my problem with the with this whole thing is is that it really doesn't feel like it's about the future it's about the same character we've been seeing on TV for the last 15 years oh I remember uh the russomania uh poster this year uh you know famously it was let me get the exact names that were were on there it was uh Paul was it was

2:19:15definitely Paul was at the table uh it was what Paul of that let me see if I can find the exact one I'm thinking of here oh man where was it they're at the oh yeah okay here we go yeah Paul found a way to get in there it's Cody Roman triple H Paul Heyman Brock Lesnar CM Punk those are yeah he's he's writing that list in terms of important person now show he was important that he made himself the important part of the CM Punk Roman Reigns match he always does I am like what side is he gonna be on who knows like oh you know they're gonna do something where he like he like puts a chair into the ring and he's like supposed to be given a bronze breaker but he pushes it like a little too far so Oba Femi you can't get it we've seen all the ship before yeah I've seen all the ship before and I don't even watch WWE anymore yeah oh yeah yeah and it's it's it's masterful because like you said he hasn't changed a fucking thing and I almost admire it that he just goes out there and he goes Mr. LeVac my idea the creative idea I have is that I Paul Heyman managed that up and coming wrestler Oba Femi and Paul

2:20:18that's a good idea I like that one the fact that he is able to just always make sure that he is at the center of all these stories doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over you know he doesn't believe in Braun Breaker and just believe in the vision and he doesn't have he's not he's not really being out there for us to theory I mean he basically abandoned the vision he did yeah when Brock came back he basically said ah bye I'm gonna go over here now yeah I'm gonna go back to my ex-wife like he like so I just this whole thing rubbed me the wrong way and honestly I think Oba Femi and Braun Breaker kind of rule and it's just they're so handy captains yes company yeah I'm with you I agree too I I will I am still I want to be in on both those guys but I am I am realizing more and more as time goes on like the Oba Oba thing is we're gonna look back at a year from now and look at what they had that moment he he blitzed Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania on ESPN and and destroyed Brock so much that Brock fucking hung up his boot and

2:21:21said fuck it I can't I'm done I can't live in this that dude's bigger and better than me and I'm out and that should have been it that would have been a perfect story and then what you say even if that wasn't your plan even if that wasn't your story and even if it wasn't his turn we are but they're gonna they're gonna melt they're gonna melt the tube because this is a great example of just go with it there's a guy who is over the crowd likes him you got a big moment there with Brock just go with it but that's modern bookers just don't they can't go with it with young guys they just can't go with it and you have a good theory on why they can't go with it and don't be and I love that there and we're gonna talk about it here in a little bit but these two guys are just perfect examples of how modern wrestling just refuses to push young guys now again I don't think Brock Braun Breaker is a phenomenal worker that's capable of having five star matches I think Obo Femi's pretty fucking good I think you can if you can't figure out how to make things happen with those two guys and and and and pounds on them when they're hot. It's a company where that shit doesn't matter yeah you're lost. This is an AEW where if a guy stinks out the joint in the match on a pay-per-view made event that's like a death blow and that's all anyone talks about how much this guy

2:22:24sucks in the ring that's not what this this company is. I do think there's a slight working standard and that's why trick I don't think can can can get there but but I do. These two guys I think you can accentuate these positives more than enough. If you're still like trying in the process of getting over as opposed to being a established guy I think you've got to work like but like fucking Roman doesn't do shit in any of his matches. Right right right. But you know he's established guys so it's okay like you could do the Roman Reigns formula either of these guys would be capable of doing that the guy does like three moves. Anyway I don't know but Kat is doing a run in here he's not sure he's yeah he's very upset with Obo Femi is booking lightly. Anyway let's listen let's finish the show here. Alexa Bliss, Charlotte and Tatum Paxley. Yeah they're matching outfits they're friends. They're tagging its Jade Befat and Mishin in a triple threat match. I was wondering like why these people are all

2:23:25friends and then Michael Cole tells us that Charlotte and Alexa Bliss you know it's taken Charlotte 12 months to warm up to bestie Alexa Bliss. Yeah like this thing has been going on for a year. Yes yes yes and now they and and because Paul of Ecclely has a couple of ideas one of his ideas is it's like if it's a Vince Russoism too it's one of these many things that Vince Russo has made a reality and I always say that Vince Russo won and it pains me that yeah it's not. Tag teams exist to not like each other so you have a stable that would be like in WWE you'll have a unit come together and within days within hours within seconds of coming together they're making faces at each other they're not quite sure they're uneasy about each other they don't trust each other well why are you a team why and that's what Alexa Bliss and Charlotte Flair they were like made to be a team but they didn't like each other so they just made faces at each other for 12 months and now they like each other but now because they like each other well we can't have that so now we add Tatum Paxley to the mix and Alexa Bliss likes Tatum Paxley but Charlotte Flair doesn't

2:24:29trust Tatum Paxley at all Jesse oh my god what a story so they make faces each other while Charlotte goes I don't trust this woman Alexa goes no no trust me it's fine and Charlotte goes I don't think it's fine I don't trust her this is the storytelling and the storytelling company J2B fab and mission there they come out wearing outfits and Michael Cole goes they're paying tribute to the great hip hop group and then he like pauses for like five seconds and he's like TLC like he clearly had to look at those notes and he says like oh and then we get yeah that's right because Wade game shitty goes oh Michael what's your favorite TLC song you probably don't even know one and Michael Cole goes of course it's it's don't go chasing waterfalls and then um Wade Barrett goes oh I bet my favorite is creep which is a different meaning than what the women call you Michael Cole which is a joke I probably wouldn't make if I was in W.D. Wilk wrestling at the game yeah well they know I like yeah yeah um I like to bliss one of my least favorite wrestlers of all time and people have been saying that she's been good for for almost her tires and she's

2:25:33almost always been awful Michael Cole says she's the five time world champion haha uh remember all five of them let's see what we can do a quiz uh let me let me all right let me let me do yeah who did she beat no no no no please don't well I want to know who elects a bliss beat for all of her uh her world championships so all right let's let's far this far I will not quiz you because I know you have no yeah like I could just guess women's wrestling yeah we're not gonna do that I think she beat Paige for one of the titles uh okay you are wrong no she beat Becky Lynch at WWE TLC tables ladders and chairs 2016 uh to win the Smackdown winner title Bailey for the title uh she beats Becky Lynch another time for the title that was on Smackdown live uh well there was a famous match for the 24th 2017 maybe maybe Alexa Bliss was already the champion but they had this match in San Jose with Bailey and they did all this like hometown stuff for Bailey and she came on got this heroes thing and then the Alexa Bliss just beat her you are

2:26:36correct thank you say payback 2017 you got it you nailed it see your bigger don't be fan of the day back 2017 yeah at the Saps Center in San Jose so much of my life was wasted watching those things oh my god Alexa Bliss defeats uh Bailey to win the Raw was like my early 20s rich I wasted it I was watching fucking payback the Saps Center in San Jose going well this is the heroes welcome for Bailey I'm sure she could never get back now you're gonna be on your deathbed thinking about payback 2017 now that she beat Sasha Banks uh on August 28th 2017 at the FedEx forum on an episode of raw uh that was her fourth world championship uh her fifth world championship uh fifth and final uh she beat Nia Jax at money in the bank 2018 so that is uh she has a four-time women's champion and a five-time singles women's champion as well as a 24-7 champion champion as well so everyone in the

2:27:36women's division does like these this is very similar it's like what I was saying about trick like they do these goofy gymnastics that look awkward and don't even make any sense like Charlotte does this cartwheel and then does a clothesline but it looks terrible because she's coming out of a cartwheel and she doesn't have like that coordination and the person's heart not always in the right spot and I'm just like oh that's just the PC bullshit they teach these people to like use their natural athleticism in a way that isn't like pro wrestling at all um and it just it's all very disarming and the stuff here is bad and then I'll be honest I've always liked Charlotte the wrestler probably more than those people I kind of like like I watch all these people and they kind of all suck and Charlotte kind of sucks too but I feel like she just goes out there and just wants like kick people in the face yeah her suck is awesome yeah yeah yeah like yeah she's come across well during that kind of stuff but man I always liked her because you never knew if she was gonna hurt herself or her opponent and in several cases she did and that was good doesn't she does not and I know this is dangerous as it is she does not have okay sorry the cats get like super close to

2:28:39like a funny cake over um uh but she doesn't have like the mentality outside of the ring to class up to be classified as a dumb jock wrestler but she has some of those tendencies absolutely absolutely it's just like anything is on the table like I'm gonna try this moonsault I might not fucking work but it's good yeah the moonsault from the top rope to the floor which never looks good always no one can catch anybody she lands on her fucking legs all the time and she's always blowing her knees out of her but she still does it every single time you see poor her or Motaka ha she doing a dive to the outside on the fucking miss and the miss just fucking drop some like a like a like a single that bloops over the second basements head it's so sad yeah heromo you got to be uh maybe lose that from your arsenal it's it's over and so there's no there's not a pile of young lions that are gonna catch anymore it's the miss so they're going to they're pitting they're pitting they're really doing something like jade and charlotte is like this feud and so they kind of build towards the finish feuding forever jade oh I don't fucking know how long no no no no no it's like

2:29:41they they yeah it's they don't tell the same stories over so they do this jade tags in for the finishing stretch and it's it's so bad rich like it's it's she's so off is not very none of the stuff looks good her and charlotte are on two different pages and this is like the bad side of charlotte we're like if there's someone like jade that's coming in and she kind of doesn't know what she's gonna do and charlotte kind of doesn't know what she's gonna do it's brutal um and like I said like jade they kind of protect with this stuff but I think no one is like oh jade's a future superstar oh no no no I think everybody sees it now I mean she did a sunset flip I it was something like I don't know I don't know what she was going for but it was like a sunset flip like maneuver and she just misses charlotte so she just flops on the ground and charlotte has to like do the tippy toe steps back so that she can go around but it's so bad yeah I will say this I thought the finish was pretty creative do you remember the finish of the finish was tateum paxley had someone in a submission charlotte

2:30:45had somebody in a submission and then they bonked heads yeah so tateum and charlotte are both gonna go for like dueling figure fours like they both have the figure four charlotte has jade and tateum I think has b fab and then on the mission and then like they're gonna tell a bright and then b fab like kicks tateum into charlotte and like charlotte clonks the clonk heads and the charlotte kind of lands like in position for jade to then pick her up into the jade at the finish so I kind of I thought in a match that was not full of good stuff I thought it was a creative nice little finish um to it but uh this will not be making my notebook uh I didn't have any notebook matches on this show no oh yeah w w remains no bookless um for me um that's something that the charlotte points out b fab did fuck it up she did not kick tateum correctly because they nobody can do anything this is the when if you don't watch there to be if you watch any other wrestling and then you watch there to be nobody connects on anything nobody hits anybody the one time somebody hits somebody was what you pointed out earlier when bront breaker or or or was it over that hit

2:31:50bront I forget who hit who oh my hands bront yeah but it was like oh my god actual impact oh my god real noises oh my god real pain and it was like the crowd went nuts the crowd was like whoa the way they shoot everything camera cuts every time this is strike so you never really see anything anyway like I'm watching like a 70s movie and like a kung fu movie or something like that no one knows how to fucking work it's so soft everybody is at 15 feet away from each other on every move they do it is so weird it's so strange but that's what they teach that's what they want so well we can move on to this main event I will say this uh many negative things about this main event one thing I did take away was like within the context of this company I can appreciate Randy Orton more because all that PC talent misses everything and Orton is still very precise he's not dynamic at all he's boring as shit but he actually does everything appropriately so you can kind of see like this guy is our gold standard because he doesn't fuck everything up if Randy Orton here's the one we've come to the conclusion is Randy Orton and Baron Corbin are the best workers in WWE. On this show they work that's not even close

2:33:00what has happened? So saw this the so at WrestleMania WrestleMania you know you have Cody versus Randy Cody wins and then it ends Randy or Punts Cody and that's kind of the idea is like this food will continue but then Randy disappears from TV and Cody's fine. Right even though we hear you do remember the story that came out it was like it was like an observed this brother thing from 1995 where people reported that Randy Orton was hurt and don't even was like you know and Randy Orton was like I'm not hurt one of these people talking about the dirt sheets they don't know shit so he punts Cody Rhodes and he disappears for six months and it's like well where'd he go what happened like Randy Savage pretending that his tricep wasn't torn working on it to own the dirt sheets that are hurting it even more. Yeah much like Randy Savage Randy Orton is gigantic even though he's in his 40s there's carrying around a bunch of unnatural muscle mass. What even unnatural? So of course he's gonna get injured. I said this that if you know when Dave still had the really mean spirited observer awards I would want an award for the guy who's like really

2:34:05jacked but just looks unhealthy and I think Randy Orton will be a strong. Yeah yeah like the bloated like that yeah yeah I bloated award yeah it would and Randy's like there's always a guy comes back from injury and he's huge but he just kind of doesn't look healthy. Anyway so so that at least running this back at least didn't they acknowledge that this happened and that you know Randy's come back and came back at Summer Slam to screw Cody. We did this and we're like Randy like they did the thing oh Cody if you hit Randy we're in the Randy we're in you hit Cody you'll never get a title shot again so then Randy's trying to go to him by saying I was personal stuff and apparently they did some weird cinematic pre-taped sit-down interview at some point you know where they shoot it like a movie apparently must not have been that good because they only showed it like a point. Two seconds of it yeah it was when it happened ever there was your usual suspect you're like that's cinema right there that story teller I should win an Emmy and then yeah of course like it was so good they used point five seconds of it in this this promo package so yeah they also did the thing where you can now if you're a member of club D. W. W. W. W. you can have your name

2:35:09on the WWE ring canvas so if there wasn't enough advertising suddenly canvas now now you can have the name and they show people with their names and I this match was sponsored by MinuteMade 11A we should point out and I just said like are these people who do that they should not have control over their own financial decisions they should be putting like a conservation chip or something like that to keep things um Michael Cole calls this one of the most personal matchups we've ever had in W. W. He did yes that is my notes and one of the most personal matchups in W. W. History I was like I don't really I don't think so okay we do the thing where they they do some brawling in the crowd before the match starts because I had seen on cage match that this match had like eight was like 18 minutes long and then I saw like the bell rings and there's still like 40 minutes left in this show oh my god man it must be like a huge post match period but then I'm like oh they're doing the the rocket brawl so this match actually ends up being like probably like 26 or 27 minutes which uh it was really long um these are walking brawls the standard you know they they're they fight in the stand they don't fight too close to the stands they kind of like this like there's always like this kind of distance between yes yeah that's

2:36:12a moderate that's a thing now that just annoys me even more about because at least like in the in the attitude era when stonk hold the rock would do every match they would brawl in the crowd yeah they're pulling in the crowd like the fans are slapping them on the back as drunk guys yeah like stonk hold looks like he wants to punch a couple fans and that's good you know that I'll take it it's it's it's weird but it has a chaotic nature to it you know there there's the head of security the guy with the kangle hat is trying to get people out of the way or whatever stonk hold shoving people out of the way there's chairs everywhere there's beer getting spilled everywhere that's uh you know hey I'll take people jumping into like the camera yeah yeah waving their hands a bunch of signs with uh slurs that you can't use anymore like you know classic stuff like classic stuff about china and like right stuff much out of it penis and we got all the classic stuff that you have the words you cannot use anymore uh anyway but now and they did it during roman and and and Seth you didn't watch this at summer slam those guys are brawling and there was like 75 feet between them in the crowd stadium right there at the Viking stadium in the

2:37:13app where yeah and they're just like and they're brawling in this like very clearly roped off area that's supposed supposed to be in the crowd and Michael Cole and Wade barely like they're in the crowd and it's like you can't see anybody in the crowd there's like a there's like a a velvet rope keeping them away from the like and I'm like this is nothing can be organic nothing can be natural nothing can be normal it all has to be so sanitized and uh yeah just brutal in this minute made sponsored professional wrestling match and uh so I just write down in my notes Randy Orton control period just the fucking shits yeah yep and then Wade Barrett says man you know and loves you in with how slow he moves yes he does so this is every Randy Orton match you've ever seen your life he's doing the garment stomps he's got the chin locks in he's you know doing his punches he's doing mid match promos too you know yeah what dark places will Randy Orton go to um and then we get this ref bump with a ref takes a bump

2:38:15and after I think it was Charles Robinson I might have been someone else I don't even know if Charles Robinson it was it was Charles Robinson okay it's a Charles Robinson uh takes a bump and as soon as he takes a bump you thought this match was going slow before the ref bump holy shit this thing stops moving after the ref bump because then we got to start doing the drama so we've got Randy Orton he's seizing the plunt and he's he's showing it in like it's it's so all designed for just these absolute morons who watch this show to understand what's going on because it's so slow so now it's like Randy Orton's gonna bend the rules and then Cody makes his little comeback but like Cody's like he's doing this thing where he's not like fired up like he's like just like throwing right hands he's did everything so fucking slow because they got to exact all this drama from everything and Cody's doing the why am I so violent and he's looking into the camera like he's he's he's he's protected he's been doing this for Randy Orton it's pushed him to this this this this this this this face um Randy Orton gets a little bit of color but it's

2:39:21probably hard way right you think I would bet yeah and Randy's done that in the past he he likes to blade uh and he can get away with it but at least he attempts to try to be like no and then the one side he's got like a trickle of blood coming out of like the side of his head yeah yeah it's very little it wasn't like a real like blade no no so that's why I maybe think it was hard way but it was giving me anyway that was at least something um so we got all this this stuff um and Cody lines up to give a punter and he's about to do it zoom in like you said we zoom in on his face I mean you can see every drop of sweat on his forehead we're so close and so zoom in so then Randy runs and Cody runs it and then Randy stops it's as big as him not the punten um and of course Cody's a complete fucking idiot because Randy or he uses an advantage or Randy or what just happened to Cody several times already yeah he's a dumb baby face why is every babe uh Jesse every baby faces dumb and has no friends it just consignates beaten up and again I can't understand when none of these people are over I don't understand one of my one of my one of the many things I

2:40:24enjoy about AW's existence and wrestling for the most part they always portray the baby face as having friends like that if you're a baby face you have like guys that will run out right we'll ask for a just became champion and now he's got a crew of dudes that are gonna help him anytime there's sometimes like storyline reasons they don't want to have just a guy's front out and if they're getting some heat but like the idea is that like if there's a heels coming out they'll be baby faces back and everyone up and that these people are not like friendless losers um like like all the baby faces in wwe are um so then again a rep uh a reference out or he gives like a low blow to both of the rap yes this is the most no Cody sorry it was to Cody in the rap yes this is most preposterous finish you will ever see and I can't believe this is I'm saying the finish and I'm I'm not joking people this was the finish is Randy Orton low blows Cody and the referee at the same time he so he's got a very long arm very long reach for uh for for Randy Orton so I don't know what his wingspan is but apparently he can get perfect nut shots both to Cody somebody

2:41:27wrote this Jesse somebody wrote this down and said I got it guys I know the finish and then why why why what do you got okay somebody in the writers room said Randy's gonna low blow Cody and the referee at the same time and they said goddamn that's perfect I love it let's do it like a man how could you do that how would you have an arm long enough to low blow and hurt both people well is the um so is the is the referee who ran down as an older gentleman like our our testicles maybe like oh they're drooping a little bit yeah or maybe maybe they like hit maybe the velocity was so hard on Cody's nuts that they hit into the nuts of the other I don't know yeah I'm not sure or Randy Orton just has a very long arm too yeah so um I just I the the the reference out or in low blows is the archaio and wins uh we'd go off the air and then we just get the in memory of build on de graphic at the end like they aired that like after the water mark right like when 99% of people would have turned the TV off so maybe they did like on a pre show I talked about them I didn't see it if they did but anyway that was tonight's baby this

2:42:32storyline must continue yep thank god I we've had they've had two of arguably the worst matches of the year so we have to make sure this continues what Cody yeah I know I know Cody knows wrestling he has to think this absolutely fucking sucks his efforts not there his effort has you can see it wasn't there during last year during that scene uh like feud and he'll turn at things like that like I think he's just kind of got everything he's wanted and now he doesn't really care yeah just playing out the strings of his career yeah didn't pay a shit ton of money to yeah he's in the position he wants to have yeah and I think he just he achieved it yeah he got there he's at least is like this is a real storyline that they've done and like goes back to WrestleMania and the post-Resal Vndy beat down so like this is only something I feel like most of the parties just been kind of drifting and he's kind of like cutting weird shoot promos with CM Punk and like just this kind of weird stuff so at least this is kind of like very clear baby face heal this they'll probably do some blow off storyline like with some sort of stipulation match or thing like that at

2:43:35I don't know what I'm saying. Also you it's pretty wild that you think this will ever end it could also just never act because Paul the fact never we could be seeing this in the in the sorry radio is very likely very likely running it back after the classic of the previous WrestleMania yeah I like I went on cage match and I saw and I was reading some like reviews this match and like some of the reviews were like this was you know a significant improvement over their match arrest no it was not like oh my god they're both bad oh really really bad this was also really really bad I was bad this was bad it's like I don't know I just expected WWE bullshit yeah this so I'll say the the WrestleMania match was worse because it was the main event of fucking WrestleMania and they had no it was this level of effort at WrestleMania and it's like you guys charged $10,000 for tickets to this thing and this is the effort you guys are giving in this main event like what are you doing like the at least this was a bullshit peacock special event on on a Sunday you know what I mean so it I think the WrestleMania match was worse because of the expectations that went into that match that

2:44:36were okay yeah what are you doing here in the beta-veterraza video can you try to have a good match like I'll try it all ready a Randy or match main event in the year of our Lord 2006 and I think I'm like he's doing the pines tees in the pond like he's been doing the punt for almost 20 years yeah like he probably did the first one like 2008 that's a good question when did Randy or in first do the pun was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was it was the first spot doesn't evolve like he's just the same fucking guy like you people think like people are sick of Chris Jericho they're sick of seeing him on TV like Randy or who's been a main event are like pretty much just as long as Chris Jericho has has taken way less time off away from wrestling than Chris Jericho and has never reinvented himself basically ever as opposed to radio and people are sick of Chris Jericho I'm not saying like oh people shouldn't be sick of Chris Jericho I totally get the people are but just putting in context of like how long Jericho's been around just that no matter what he does he's kind of like he's he's gonna rub people the you know people

2:45:40are gonna be sick of seeing him and Orton hasn't done anything to change himself in 25 years really ever since he kind of shaved his head yeah that Orton the Orton that the Viper Orton is like seven yeah yeah when he kind of when he first lost all that weight and became like the skinny Randy Orton yeah that from that point on and the and became like not the legend killer not rated arc like that that they're not the legend killer but like that era of like you're saying the punt Randy Orton from that point yeah and I was in I was in eighth grade during that time period and I'm 32 years old right so so how are you gonna celebrate 20 years of the Miz do you want to you and I can come up with our favorite Miz moments in the last two decades I think the Miz had like a decent storyline with MVP over the US championship the Miz debuted when I was in like there's I remember when I like the year I first started watching wrestling we got the

2:46:43vignettes for the Miz like he was doing tough enough yeah tough enough winner yeah well it was it was post tough enough I actually wasn't watching wrestling I started watching rarely wrestling in 2005 when I was 10 and like the Miz like maybe like doesn't late 2005 we started getting the Miz the reality check with the Miz and he was like kind of like this obnoxious TMZ backstage guy and then he started wrestling these matches we had this like goofy DDT finish yeah it was he was he was he was he was it was not good yeah the the pants like the leather pants to and he had like yeah it's a rough look for a while there but Mike Misemian yep well luckily wrestling's evolved so much in the years that have followed which hey brings us to our our second topic which is a nice segue right into wrestling's age issues so now this was your topic so I'm gonna let you set the stage for it and we can we can discuss so I do want to reframe

2:47:46it a little bit it's not as much of an age issue as it is as a reliance on established names in people that have been around for yes yes in a hesitancy overall to quickly elevate wrestlers up into a main event position and so like I think like Opa Femmy and Brown break Eric say I think breakers actually a great example because you've already seen the damage that has been done to him with him not getting like a real rocket you know jetpack to the main event picture so pretty much as soon as breaker debuted in an xt people are like this is potential top guy potential top guy next next top guy you know replacement for Roman Reigns next you know world champion all that kind of stuff and he you know goes to an xt they keep him down there for a couple years they bring him up to the main roster and he basically just becomes a mid card act in in WWE and that's where he is now he's firmly in the mid card and because talent rarely gets better especially once

2:48:50around the main roster in WWE you kind of hit it ceiling from like your like your ability in a lot of ways so what you need is you need better booking to protect you so people start buying into you as a top star because people won't really care if you kind of suck if you're already over as a top star but you kind of have to be that we were talking about that trickle-yam's like trickle-yam's has to be better to establish himself he can't be the guy that that has shitty matches is okay to be the guy that has shitty matches if you're working the main events and you're over and I think what we've seen and that's why I said like breaker is done as a top guy because he has now been cast as a mid card guy and unless they have some sort of incredible storyline to get him over which I'm gonna say I don't see Paul Effect developing he's just gonna continue to kind of lose momentum and it it it harkens back to historically when wrestlers really got over as top guys it happens pretty quickly it is not a five year plan

2:49:55that is carefully executed it's time in place and a guy getting over and catching fire at the right time and the way not only WWE but really the entire wrestling industry hasn't moved more into which is being like if we have a top guy it has to be meticulously planned and we have to pan pick them and slowly bring them along and they're eventually gonna get over and they'll be our top wrestler while historically that pretty much has never happened in wrestling and in fact most of the times when the top guy gets over it's sometimes just shit luck and the only guy I can really think about who like kind of had this from a very early stage what they chose him to be the new top guy and they slowly brought them along was Roman Reigns which famously didn't fucking work so now we have this situation where they think everyone is gonna be on this five year plan to get over and that's just not how wrestling works like when Hulk Ogan I know he was in the WF a little

2:50:58bit before 1983 but when Ogan comes into the WF as the baby face he won the world title in like his like was it his first match was like a second match like a second or third yeah I was second like yeah they had a right he showed up and they had an introduction matches because they wanted to let the fans know this guy's a baby face now they had Bob back and say hey this guy's good guy now and then they basically like all right everybody knows he's a good guy now great he's gonna win the world title and he's our new star and that was like a weekend he was already the the star they brought him in had a couple matches told everybody's a baby face he wins the title rest of his history I mean even when state like even I think people think of staying as like this guy that chased flare for a while but like pretty quickly in Sting's career in Crockett like he was presented as a top star oh yeah oh yeah yeah absolutely no he almost from they did a little bit of the UWF stuff you know and that even they kind of kept that sort of separate because it was like oh he's part of the Florida thing and they're doing the invasion or whatever but yeah once they were ready to have him be his own guy after you do the clash of the champions match with flare he's off to the

2:52:01races and he's ready to go and and and it takes two years until the right to give him the world title but he's a top guy for those entire two years and even a guy like Steve Austin right who's in WWE WF for a few years before he kind of really catches on pretty much as soon as he catches on they're like all right well we got to put the world title on like as soon as possible yeah yeah by 1997 by early 97 it's very clear that this guy is going to be they weren't like yeah like it wasn't like you know he breaks his neck at summer slam 97 and then it's he's doing this you know all that he that the people I say that was kind of a blessing because he's just doing all these promos and stuff because he can't take any bumps and it actually came across really well for his character and setting up the the bike types of thing but they weren't just like all right Steve's starting to get over so at WrestleMania you know 17 in 2001 that's what right right right they just pushed him right away and I do think like the rock is a good example yeah yeah it was 25 and they just went alright guys wrestling has changed audiences have changed I understand that

2:53:05you probably can't bring in a guy who people haven't heard of and then give put the world title on him after a week like you could withhold but the pacing is all wrong and and I think the general like takeaway is that it's really great if you can come up with a long-term booking idea to get someone over and then execute that over like a three or four year period everyone wants to think that they're master plan great booker and things like that and they have they you know creatively mastered the this guy getting over but the reality is that so much stuff can go wrong over the course of a three or four year plan like I can't get over people get injured other people get over in the crowd wants them more all of the stuff that can happen that can be real things and wrestling seems really overall hesitant to capitalize on someone originally getting over and trying to make a true new big star everything just has to be meticulously planned I don't know if it's

2:54:08you know bookers think this way or they're everything has so many writers and that that's how things have to work like if you're thinking about like a TV show like you'd kind of want to like do this huge character arc to tell a big story the wrestling isn't the TV show in a conventional sense you can just kind of introduce a new character and then immediately kind of make them the top character on the show um and so on the random thing just it seems like wrestling overall and since we've been point to pretty much every company in the world at different times they're too comfortable with the established names they're not comfortable enough taking a risk which even how many guys in wrestling history have been pushed like super hard like super hard made world champion like didn't like and just like totally bond and was a huge disaster I there's there's a couple but it's rare I feel like there's more in Japan like you could point to guys in Japan and stuff like that but in the US like what Lex Luger enrollman but you know Roman eventually got over in a way I don't want to really get that disaster but right right yeah

2:55:09there's a couple yeah but it's very rare like the idea is that what if we push a guy and he does he get over oh he'll be like Lex Luger it's gonna be like Lex Luger and it's like most of the time when you just like book a guy to win all the time they at least get over to a reasonable degree oh yeah yeah like like yeah they're handling nuclear bombs and if that if everything doesn't go perfectly according to plan it's gonna explode yeah and that's that's the thing that I've always never I've never quite understood why that is such everyone is so hesitant and so scared especially now more than ever you could be hesitant scared back in 1984 when you put the world title on a guy yes or you put your your territory title on a guy any fucking bomb that it was no good and then people stop going to your shows and you'll you're out of business you know you can't sell tickets to your big show every single week and your big building in your territory you're fucked and you got a scrambled to figure out oh fuck all right we you know we talked about it with Chris down there with Bill Dundee the plan was we're gonna get Lawler out of there for six or seven months

2:56:09and Bill Dundee is gonna be our top star will build on the bombs and they tell Jerry Lawler all right you coming back to work because we need you back and then he comes back and they do a bunch of great business but that was we're in the guaranteed money here we're this is never been easier to just say you know what fuck it let's let's take a chance on a guy why not who cares we're not gonna we're not gonna lose if I don't right right I just I don't buy that and I'll use to to not pick on to be I'll use a w as an example do I think that that Turner is gonna call not that I would do this but I'm saying if you if you wanted to if if if Kevin Knight if Tony Khan wakes up one day and goes you know God damn it I want to make Kevin Knight my world champion and you make Kevin Knight your world champion is Turner gonna call the next day and say I you guys are gone like you can or are a million people gonna turn off their television and never watch a w ever again because Kevin Knight won the title I don't think so I doubt it and again I don't think Kevin Knight needs to win the title right now but a guy like Kyle Fletcher is someone that I always bring up where I think that they're gonna wait and wait and wait and wait on him and they

2:57:12might wait too long and I don't know I don't know if they're gonna wait too long but you might or he might get hurt and that was the Brown Breaker thing you they waited they waited they waited they waited they waited they waited and waited and then it got hurt and then when he came back they went all right well then they just moved on and now they're never gonna go I mean that they're gonna go back to him at some point but it's never gonna be the same you're never gonna be able to put that toothpaste you know back in the tube and I always worry about that with with wrestlers where you kind of get one chance to kind of make that person rise yeah and you get one rise and if you don't coincide that one rise with an actual rise it's very hard to get that again sometimes you do sometimes you get lucky and you do but you have very very rarely do but bookers that's they don't want the rise to ever be against their plan and I think it points out to another thing that Chris and I were talking about earlier in this show too where the fact is that crossing bookers it's always just the same people all the time so you have an ability if you're a Tony Khan if you're a Paul effect to write in a notebook that in and I if we're all in 2027 I want this to be my main event and you

2:58:13can do that and you can do that and that and that and because you're gonna be the booker no one's gonna no one's gonna fire Tony Khan for being the booker of a w you know when no one's gonna say no you can't have that be your all in main event it has to be this guy in this guy but because guys are just bookers forever and that Gato is a great example to Gato played a bunch of these perfectly these two three year stories perfectly and he was great for but now he's addicted to doing that now everybody has to have these five year character arcs and it's like brother if someone's over just just just go with it it doesn't need to be a five year character arc every single time but he knows he's he's there he's in that position whereas in Memphis you had six months you had six months so you're like oh here's the story I want to tell him six months all right I'm out I'm out I'm going to book it's your book now you tell story and you only have an X amount of time to tell a story because you're not gonna have the book for two years three years four years five years we don't do that anymore so you can sit there these bookers and they have all this control and they have all this ability and this comfortable they're the most comfortable position wrestling is being a one of the ten people that books wrestling it's always the same fucking ten people that always book wrestling they have one of the most comfortable jobs in the

2:59:14world because very rarely and I mean TNA for god's sakes look when it had look how bad it had to be for them to finally change the TNA booking you know you are gonna have and Tommy Dreamer got that job after having the reputation of being a fucking horrible booker he booked OVW and was awful and had the rep of this guy's a fucking terrible booker and continued to get booking jobs because once you do it one time you're always gonna be able to get it and it's just literally in an Netflix documentary that was basically focused on why he was a bad booker yeah and still got chances after because he did it and if you've done the job once if you get the job forever so I think because the people are just you know installed in these positions forever and they think that they're doing a good thing like you said there are certain cases where yes doing a long term story and and planning it out for years in advance is great that's great when you can nail it that's that's awesome that's really good but we're addicted to that now and we are addicted to not chasing who's over at what time WCW with Bill Goldberg they they fucked up a lot of things with Bill Goldberg

3:00:18but they realize and Hulk Hogan realized smartly oh fuck that dude I mean I can make some money with that guy so you know what we're gonna do you're gonna give the title of that guy they didn't want to do that with Bill Goldberg they were gonna tell their story with Bill Goldberg they were with you know without Bill Goldberg but he got too over and it was Hulk Hogan of all people that wanted a pounce on it and said I look you know he saw the Georgia don't yeah so they give the title but here's here's here's where it went wrong though is they actually didn't rip up their plans they basically gave Goldberg the title then did their same stories and Goldberg's just like holding this title and they have nothing to do with forum so they like they have did it and that's one of the classic examples of if they had just said rip up the fucking plans whatever plans we had they're out the window I don't care what you want to do Kevin Nash I don't care what you want to do Hulk Hogan I don't care we're not bringing the ultimate warrior in we're not doing any of this bullshit we're not doing a wolf pack like no this is our guy Goldberg is our guy but they didn't do it they gave him the title but then they had no fucking ideas for him and then by December they're like all right are we done with this now can we go back to the story we wanted to tell and they did and they went

3:01:19right back to the story they told and Goldberg was never the same again and I think we see that repeated a lot of times but instead of giving him the title we have bookers that just don't do the title switch and just say ah well we're not ready for that guy yet so we're ready to wrestle they don't even challenge for the title no no and that and that is a point that you've brought up on a great article that now gets cited a lot and and you were ahead of the game on this that there there might be a little bit of a power dynamic going on in WWE because there's a certain subset of older guys that have been around forever that are always in the main events and then there's everybody else and they don't interact ever these two parties yeah the first thing I want to point out is like Goldberg is a good example with I think when you push a guy like really fast and right away and you have win all their matches as opposed to going on some like five-year Odyssey if a wrestler has some really strong strengths in some really big weaknesses you can kind of pay cover up those weaknesses by just like booking them to win all their matches the Goldberg did the problem was once you kind of get away from that with Goldberg a lot of his weaknesses became

3:02:24exposed like he's actually kind of difficult to book because his character doesn't have a lot of flexibility he's not going to be able to wrestle these kind of all these matches and all this kind of stuff like that and I think you see that with that these PC guys like Obun Brock Brockbreaker come up and it's like these guys if they're protected and pushed like gods they're probably going to get over because they have the physical tools and there's some charisma there but if you're going to put them in this like long-term storyline with the vision where they're going to be cutting pros and working long matches and all this kind of stuff it's going to kind of expose some of these guys these guys are going to come across as less cool because they're not perfect workers I'm more bullish on someone like Kyle Fletcher because I'm like well Kyle Fletcher could carry all that stuff because he's a he's much closer to a finished product as an overall top performer than these guys who are really you know quite green in a lot of ways I'm glad you mentioned the the the the power dynamics of WWE so my my basic hypothesis was that like we all know about the click in the you know mid 90s which is the idea which is like we're top stars and

3:03:26WWE if you know we're Scott Hall and and Kevin Nash and Sean Michaels and and and Sean Paul of Akkin and Sean Walden I don't know why I used all of their real names your Dave Meltzer names every parentheses yeah yeah raise a run for that to see Scott Hall yeah Scott Hall 38 but he um but the idea was like we're only kind of work with each other and maybe a handful of other established top names to kind of make it so only our group kind of has the highest paying spots in wrestling and it was during our time period where like it was very political and getting those top spots was really important guys were more protected for their spots and something that kind of has faded away to a degree but when you look at I think WWE has three stars that are like their highest level and its Roman Reigns CM Punk and Cody Rhodes you could maybe throw Seth Rollins in as a fourth but he's like you know the the survivor series of the fourth or the the Andy Murray of the fourth sorry Andy Murray wow I slept Andy Murray but I

3:04:31mean you're not wrong but yeah how about this he's the Akira Tauay of the of the four there you go some people who got really mad that I just said that but not me these these guys like they're the absolute top stars I think no one would dispute that and those are the earliest to publish guys those are the guys that are making the most money in the company and you look at who these people wrestle and it's either each other or it's these other guys who are like also like 40 and been around forever and are kind of top stars but are really not and they never any threat because they're never going to really reach that highest level so it's your Drew McIntyres and your Kevin Owens and your Sammy Zanes or if you're Roman it's some members of your family like and that's it these guys never really interact with Braun Breaker or Oba Femi or some of these younger wrestlers Jacob Fattu only got that match because he's right it's a Roman Reigns and I think it's really illustrated when you see stuff like I always say this is a huge sign so

3:05:33they put they give you know Walter Gunther I always call him Walter forever though they give him this big push they have a retired John Cena holy shit this heel retired John Cena and I know I know I don't know if that's coming through but a little bit but that's all right it's it's a classic flagship we joke that like oh no the cats make a noise but we all know the listeners like here in the yeah we got dogs jinglin we got babies crying it's classic flagship it's all good um but you know they give Walter this huge push and then Walter you know hasn't really done anything back in the midcard after beating John Cena retirement John Cena I mean they kind of changed their WrestleMania plans I think Seth Rollins got injured and that kind of thing and they needed a heel to wrestle Cody Rhodes at WrestleMania and they went with Randy or who again is one of those established guys who's been around forever and is never going to really threaten these top guys spots instead of Walter was the perfect idea is like Walter versus Cody

3:06:35that's a big match you've done all this work booking Walter he retired John Cena for God's yeah it's like you can't get anything bigger than that what these guys don't want to work with them why wouldn't you do that so I think there's a lot of politics being played um and again that's just speculation but it's kind of based on like you look I in my article I look at and this is a few months ago by like look at who these guys are like who did see him punk wrestle last year and it's like all of this these you know either established guys or it's one of the big two with three guys in the company and I think there's a lot of factors in play I think that if I'm Roman Reigns why would so so so so people think that Opa Femi is gonna win the Royal Rumble and beat Roman Reigns at WrestleMania my what might happen it might happen it might happen I just that couldn't happen but a lot of people just seem to think that's the logical thing that's gonna happen and that this is another issue with WW I think I'll talk about that in a minute but people think that's gonna happen so if I'm Roman Reigns like why would I be interested in working with

3:07:41Opa Femi right why would I be interested in working with a guy who's younger than me who's fresher than me and most importantly is making considerably less money than I am why would I want to be interested in giving that guy a rub either either by putting him over or just working with him why would I be interested in that because we know how TKO treats their veteran talents because you've seen it you have to see when they feel like there's a younger cheaper option than them they say man you're not really worth it anymore you can go kick rocks so if I'm Roman Reigns I'd be terrified that someone like Opa Femi or Braun Breaker or anything other guys is gonna replace me from my extremely cushy basically no show job where I get booked like a god I'm the highest paid bot guy in the company and I only have to work like four matches a year why would I be interested in that so I think there's a lot of stuff that's being siphoned you could say the same thing about Cody or CM Punk like I thought it was hilarious that in his famous

3:08:46there is now infamous promo against Kevin Owens right before he dropped his uh I forget what he said and no or I don't know I promise the uh oh yeah and a meteorosis yeah yeah and before he said that line he said I was expecting I want to face Opa Femi like see this is classic fill right he wants everyone to know I actually really want to do this but I just can't because oh now I'm impressed now he's feuding with fucking Kevin Owens and Kitsami Zane perfect guys to camp for his spot and I don't think that's a coincidence and I think they're very afraid of this happening and the other aspect of this I want to touch on unless you do you have anything to say about that I don't I mean I do a little bit actually I will say the article by the way the title is and we probably should do an update because I think what's happened in the last couple months is only more but it's a is a new click controlling Dota he's made events seen I'll link in the show notes as well that was from March but you're absolutely right and and it does feel like and and that's been a and Jo and I've talked about a lot too there is a power dynamic issue in WWE that

3:09:49a lot of people don't bring up very much and the big dynamic is that Paul Vec is he's not first off he's not the most important Paul he's not the Paul that everybody listens to uh in that company but things happen in that company where it goes over his head we know that probably we know that for sure we know that sometimes you know area manual will make a move that'll go over his head we know that sometimes Paul him and Roman Reigns and other guys and Cody Rhodes will make moves that go over his head so anybody that's doubting that there is some sort of power thing going on here with these guys is is you're just lost I mean it's actually happy wrestling history says there always is of course there always is it's never a happy family I mean that that the idea that this you know there was a wrestling utopia for a little bit you know AEW had it for a brief period when it began in that obviously it was very much yeah I remember what happened with that what happened with that was there a wrestler that that came in that kind of changed things and that where is that wrestler now uh I don't know yeah I don't know who would say he he will shall not be named I went in there but no that that that was a big part of it but you know don't be had a brief period too when when they

3:10:51were on you know the rise again where it was like this big happy family but that's very very rarely the case in wrestling stars want to hold onto their spots and if they're going to be in the company and you're never going to fire them they're never going to go to a new territory they're going to stay forever then those guys are going to hold on to those top spots like death like the click a great example they knew that don't have was fucked against WCW and then we're going to fire those guys they were going to fire Sean Michaels so he could do whatever the fuck you want it because it's fine fire me you're gonna fire me let me go to WCW have fun with that and eventually Scott Hall and Kevin Ash do go that and that gives Shawn Michaels even more ammo once those guys are going to go oh you're you're gonna fire me if they let me go to WCW my friends good luck go do it and was able to kind of run the show there for a couple years until his issues became too much and then the rock and so cold sea boss and emerge and those guys were good to go now those guys were pretty you know there was a there was a level of you know WCW we don't even have to of course that was happening in WCW with with Hall and and and or not Hall with Nash and Hogan and those guys were all holding on with their spots we all know that that's not you know new story at all but

3:11:53they we had a brief you know period where the rock the rock didn't really give a shit the rock didn't the right honestly the rock's the fucking best dude that came in Rick flam in terms of like American Pro Wrestling's like him and Rick Flair are the two like all-time big drawing cards that honestly just lost all the time and didn't even fuck cuz yeah the rock will lose some fucking Billy gun on Ron it's like rock what are you doing he's like I don't care yeah I'm the rock is dude like I'll just cut a promo and I'll still be over like yeah he said their eyes that are so afraid to put their shoulders on the mat it's really funny yeah but so there was that period where the rock didn't really give a shit and you know he he was okay with losing and it was okay with yeah if you want to put but that's that those are if you and Farber tween like you said there's usually guys that want to hold on to their top spots and you bring up a great a great point why would Roman Reigns Roman Reigns a guy who from day one was anointed as the guy and we are going to do everything in our power to make sure that you are as over as possible we are going to do whatever it doesn't matter who it takes doesn't matter what it takes we don't care if the fans reject it where you are going to be over you're going to be our star that was that was what they've

3:12:56been doing Roman Reigns out for 10 years they wanted to do that we are going to you are going to be our guy you are going to be the guy that it's going to run this company and eventually once he finally got over that's when he has this new sweetheart contract that lets him work you know five days a year work two matches a year and and and just fuck off why would he ever come to work and say oh yeah I'll put over oh but why would he ever want to do that why would he ever want someone to be a bigger star than he is why would he ever want someone to get a you know get over and then maybe they say well wait why are we paying Roman Reigns this amount of money for him to show up four times a year fuck that no we got over family now he's a star why would that guy ever now you might say oh well that's that's what you do that's part of being in the business or whatever but Roman doesn't play ball like that he never has and he hasn't recently I'll tell you that he was supposed to lose that he was supposed to lose that first Cody match I know that now everybody points to the temple and talks about how dirty it was so smart by no he was supposed to lose that match but uh another Paul and Roman basically said it's not gonna work for his brother and he beat it and I think like

3:13:57any look at like these guys don't even really interact with these younger guys all that much that's the bigger tell for me and then you look at what happens when the rarests is to do so we have we have three good examples right here so Cody did wrestle Obofemi I think he wrestled him on like a Saturday night's main event like at the start of year when it was like a big deal or maybe it was in December something like that but quickly we shouldn't as Obofemi came out I think he went like a 15 minute draw some some happened it was a non finish and then basically like Obofemi like fucked off and then it's never interacted with Cody again as far as I know and then Roman actually that was a cat yeah that was a cat so he just freaked out jumped off my lap and his now staring at me while looking at his tail on a on a Jason seat to my desk anyway um like Roman worked that program with Jacob Fattu where he put Jacob Fattu in his place yeah very clear about what that program that program was and I know you guys have made fun of like

3:14:58you know Michael Cole sitting like the Somo and Werewolf has been what is it defang yeah yeah something some dumb ass lion it's like are we sure we are we sure we should be definging yeah the Somo and Werewolf at this point like and then uh CM Punk Russell Bronn Breaker at the start of the year I think it was maybe like that first were all the year and like CM Punk like Beat Bronn Breaker and Bronn Breaker had like a bunch of vision guys running in and help become so it was very clear like this is your spot on the card buddy um and a subsequent to that they they haven't really interacted with these guys at all and I think that's very telling too because this is not these guys chasing after them like if you want to compare it at least to AW like that's like like Kyle Fletcher is never interacted with Willow Sprayer Kyle Fletcher is never interacted with you know hang n' page or things like that no these are working on it like um this part of another major factor and this is a major factor in WWE and I think because in a lot of ways WWE sets the tone for a lot of how everyone else books um like Oba Femmy beats Bronn

3:16:00Breaker at Somerslam and the kind of like the blow off match and retired Brock Lesnar and it's like oh great okay what's next for Oba Femmy and like fans just automatically going oh yeah when the world rumble and we'll beat Roman Reigns it's like okay well it's you know July what are we gonna do like it's like oh well you know it will just wait so like the idea now is that WWE moves so slow their calendar moves so slow and there's only like four events that really matter at all and anything that's really consequential has to happen at one of those big events so that just prolongs everything like now like okay Oba is gonna and under like the best case scenario for these people like Oba is gonna fuck around for seven months probably feuding with the vision the entire time that he's gonna run the world rumble and then he's gonna beat Roman Reigns um you know eight months after he beat Bronn Breaker and it's like that it was in the old days that would be like an eternity like you just wait all this time but because WWE has really conditioned their fans

3:17:01they just accept that like nothing fucking happens all of the time and that you really only have to pay attention for a handful of shows and it's like oh well you know it's the fall and football you know they never really try and the falls you know because they never really try a Christmas time like they just like get a pass for six months of the year because nothing ever happens on these shows or that nobody can actually get like an organic put like they have to win a money in the bank they have to win the royal royal royal like that yes that's huge is that you have to have these moments that make a star like the idea now and I was talking about this with Trish Spears on my the latest episode Jumman's wrestling podcast which you can listen to on this podcasting network and we just had to have a sip go up Monday where we talked about and kind of related to this we talked about the AW kind of made of that scene post all in with now Will Osprey is the champion and Will Osprey kind of who is potential opponents are going to be is he going to be wrestling some younger guys is he going to be wrestling some older guys so it's a very similar conversation but kind of one of the things that I mentioned was that like they kind of just convince people that like nothing can happen but also that like WrestleMania is now like the only show of the year

3:18:08where something like look on the big thing can happen and like you could crown a new guy honestly a huge problem that we're talking about here is the need to feel like there has to be some sort of amazing crowning moments for every new guy that you're trying to make a champion like it has to be some sort of incredible journey and struggle and he came short up short a bunch of times he finally got over the hump as opposed to just be like you know what this guy's the best right now he's kind of catch everyone's surprise he's going to win that's how real combat sports work yeah is like someone rises up they knock out a few guys and then they win the championship it's not like this this it comes across as very manufactured and as he's like AW might unfortunately be like I'm kind of worried like it's great they nailed the hangman page thing at all in last year building up and doing that they nailed the willospery thing that was a great moment him and wimbley stadium people remember that forever but that shouldn't be to stand like the idea it's like okay who's the next guy that a Kyle Fletcher like okay let's get Kyle Fletcher ready for all in yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's not working like that and it's like and it shouldn't and that's

3:19:10bad because then to make sure your calendar fucking worthless and it's a problem because Tony love like Tony loves getting an idea about something happening at some certain time and sticking to that idea you know through thick and thin so there's not always that pivot that needs to happen if someone else gets over you need to do it faster and like again like w2 it's become this idea like wrestling like wrestle mania was I there's some memorable moments in wrestle mania where a guy wins the title for the first time like people to it warrior or Sean Michaels but like wrestle mania is usually just like whatever your biggest feud is and that's what happens it doesn't have to be like the one time you could finally crown a new guy and if it doesn't happen a wrestle mania it's gonna feel less legitimate um and I think in general like wrestling is really obsessed with with with with with title wins and not as obsessed with title wins in a lot of ways yeah so what they care about which is kind of a separate issue um and I think like to pivot away from ww and a little bit more towards like a w like a w has a lot of I think interesting

3:20:13candidates for this but they also have to balance these other guys that they've kind of invested in they have less they have there she was not as much w has these kind of guys that have been on tv for 15 years that have pushy positions and have a lot of stroke backstage a w has these guys that they've already invested in and pushed to the top in making sure that they give them all like the kind of attention that they need like they've had success in elevating guys like mjf and swerve and hangman at a page but they also need to continue to kind of give creative attention to those guys and that includes like world title runs and things like that while also trying to elevate new talents in that position while also trying to also please like the old guard like you know john moxley and things like that so it's a difficult balance to find like and I said like with wwoo law's first champion you've got kind of like a clean slate in a lot of ways but like who are you going to have him face and I know on my podcast Trish pointed out like you know his first defense is

3:21:13is john moxley and if you look at like who these guys defend against when they win the title for the first time a lot of the times it's like for hangman page was Brian danelson and for mjf it was Brian danelson and for swerve it was Christian like they like the a tony likes giving it like a like a stabless guy who was afraid to push even a guy like will osprey who like I think ever understand to this point is it's not like an experiment with him being world champion like realistically I mean it's a degree everything is experiment but like we kind of know what we'll last for years in w in a w it's not like they're okay let's give him the world title let's see if he can let's see if this kid can work yeah yeah we know what he is yeah like it's not an experiment but yet they still going with the box and I understand like it's it's a short pay-per-view build you've kind of already been doing this moxley osprey build so it this feels like kind of a pretty significant match to happen with the quick turnaround coming out of all then so like it makes sense but it's like okay are we gonna do like they tease a lot of like kind of like newer guys challenging for the title it's you know Gabe kid and then drade and like is that gonna like presumably that's

3:22:16gonna happen but how do those guys fit in especially if you're looking at more veteran talent and then the other thing hanging over a w um which is kind of interesting which is like they're in a tv contract year next year which I can't believe I can't believe we talk about tv yeah yeah yeah Jesus yeah I thought I thought we were over that we were over that like it's already back they need to sign like the 20 year Netflix deals so like that's what never ever have to talk about it ever again yeah but um like it's like how risk adverse are they gonna be during their tv deal like are they gonna be afraid that they might burn off some viewers if they push it got the wrong guy as champion and maybe they become a little bit more conservative I have no idea if that's Tony's mentality but you can kind of see why it would make sense um for wwe I have absolutely no idea why it is totally against their own interests to be as conservative with booking as they are especially because really they're hitting a point where they need new blood so bad like so that this ancient main event scene of guys who've been in the company for 20 years and we just talked about it um

3:23:18and it's like honestly the time to make oboe femy was at last year's WrestleMania when you were still like kind of feeling a little bit hot it's not at next year's when you've been pretty much in decline for this entire yeah yeah like your time to make your next pop guy was when you were still hot it's not afterwards we saw in wcw like they were trying they they tried to make new guys in 2000 it was too late because the company was in the shitter and obviously wwe is far better than wcw was in 2000 but like it's harder to to make a new guy when their company's struggling to maintain its current audience than it was when you had more attention and you're kind of now it feels like oh now we're turning to this guys at last resort yeah it's it's it's it's wild that that yeah it double to be in particular it it it boggles your mind wide and and it's really like leveque is always been this way the nxt leveque booking was the same way as well so i'm not i'm not entirely surprised that things have gotten slow but i am surprised that like you said there

3:24:19there doesn't seem to be any movement in these guys and and and goonther is a great example of he's not even that young but he's at least somewhat new he's a new guy to put in the mix and they don't they they refuse to do it after he retired john cina the one and and that is i i and in leveque would love to make vulture their world champion yeah and i don't i don't doubt that at all no no that's definitely a guy that that seems to work for in his sensibilities forever in some ways more than one but um no it's just like it it's it's crazy because that's a guy who you gave him the thing that is is you can never ever do that again retire john cina john cina is like in that company's history the biggest guy ever you know because they've erased a lot of the history of of steve austin that in their history steve austin doesn't exist you know his actual retirement is the big because none of those other guys that were like actual topsides had like a proper retirement right right and it's so like you have this opportunity to quote unquote retire

3:25:21the biggest star in your company's history and you give it to this guy in a thrown to guy and they did a terrible job of building it up it was thrown together but you did it and the result and result was I don't know if I can maybe he can retire rames steve or something I retire they just out they have no ideas they how do you not rip up your okay look however we got here go with their just retire john cina he's got to be the guy we have to elevate this guy right now he has to be the the biggest heel in the in the business he has to be the whatever whatever it's going to be we have to they just didn't they just didn't they refused to they didn't want to the deviator from their plans I don't know why but it it it it it makes no sense whatsoever the so the thing is it going to make any sense whatsoever we're going to try to lie to ourselves and pretend that he's going to win the Royal Rumble he's going to win at WrestleMania and when that doesn't happen they'll say actually it was a good idea to wait another year he'll be more ready next year I hope he works WrestleMania and Roman chokes him out yeah that'd be great yeah be perfect for for discourse it'd be great and and brought someone that doesn't care about WWE at all I've been for the always always always always yeah it's always and and and and and and broad breakers

3:26:21the same way as while we're like last year at this this time it was like last year around like summer slammer whatever there was a a ground swell of okay look this guy you know he's not that great of a worker but it's kind of a denial right now and he's getting over with this Seth Rollins thing but everybody oh he's not ready you'll be ready more next year he'll be ready more in two years he'll be ready it doesn't work that way that's not how it works had he into WrestleMania a lot of people were like oh Brock Lesnar should be double febby he's not ready yet no fuck off no what are you doing and it's telling that Brock Lesnar and John Cena the two guys that were tired I don't really believe Brock is retired but no a paycheck will bring Brock back whenever you need to yes I think something tells me Brock Lesnar will be making the trip to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia yeah but you know in this extends you know the same conversation extends to New Japan and we can start we can start wrapping it up as well because we're we've been harping on WWE we've been harping on a w but New Japan is just as guilty of it as well and they have now finally been dread kicking and screaming to push new people because they just literally have no other choice like

3:27:24all the other guys are gone night don't left Tanaishi retired Okaada left Osprey left like they all left they're all gone Jay White left like they had no other choice they literally had no they did the godo thing they did this X-aber Jr. thing they kicked the can down the road as much as they possibly they killed as much time until they literally had no choice they had no choice and they had to push you to Suji and they have to push Roho you and they have to do this and that's fine that's good and and and I'll give them credit for finally doing it but they're probably like three years too late to all those guys getting pushed like I said it would have been better to push those guys when you still have the top talent around to really put them over and I like allegedly maybe some of those guys those guys didn't want to put those talent which I that's say that's still universal rule the wrestling yeah and that point it relates to an article that you wrote pretty recently as well voices wrestling that Kenny Omega was like yeah fuck yeah I'll put the last three over like I don't care yeah you can be kick out of the one we can't put it over yeah literally trained his or like exact replacement yeah like someone who's been compared to they already you know you can't already replace Kenny Omega with the last three once

3:28:24but you want to know what Kenny Omega has a lot of confidence that no matter he can put over with last three and he knows he'll be fucking fine you want to know who maybe doesn't feel that way Roman Reigns yeah kind of realizes maybe someone else can do his job and and they also like with WWE it's these guys are all old like I was just I made this post like they had the CM Punk Cody Rhodes face to face in like punk you know he's got this thing going on with his hair the be the beevus and butt head. Cody swear it is his suit and he's like he looks like he is he is jaundice or he's like yeah he looks very tired these days I don't know yeah and I was like these guys don't look cool at all like and I know I'm not the the the paragon you would not probably not the top guys but but but like if you're trying to try to attract a younger audience like these guys just look old and and and strange and it's like

3:29:25at least like I could see like a guy with like like like trick Williams for example like yeah I can see him appealing to younger demographic or jave on Evans or these guys that have like kind of a different style to them and it just they feel like these guys just feel weird and strange and they're like if I was a teenager I'd like I'd be like like they're gonna watch a much old fucking people yeah and that's I've always brought this point up is that throughout wrestling history you can go through and there's like one or two examples in the entire history wrestling where a promotion got hot or promotion you know when they were pushing older talent no it's almost always young under exposed talent that that is gonna do and it doesn't always have to be young sometimes it could be under exposed but some combination of the two it has to be that factor because if you want the next generation of wrestling fans to to watch and consume your product they want to watch the next they want to watch people that are like them they don't want to see like you said like a weird jaundice 40 year olds and like guys with hair plugs and guys with jaundice like

3:30:27they don't why would a 17 year old watch that turn this show on and watch these two old dudes like why would you ever want to watch that and ages just a number like like there are some older guys that maybe would connect with the younger audience in a way but like but they're they're very often too exposed and that that's one of the issues it's it's and it's a good thing it's a great thing that our wrestlers are not dying I grew up in an era where a lot of my favorite wrestlers died when they were in their 30s that's not good yeah and wrestlers would just age insanely fast right because they would they would erode on them yeah they're four months later they were like they're they're you know they were just fucking dumb right right because the road would own them they were 350 dates a year on the road drinking and and popping pills and doing steroids it was that it wasn't healthy luckily wrestlers are way more healthy that these wrestlers are yeah but you also have to bounce but you know continuation of elevating new guys and it's like you know some systems like the joshis system is is more naturally built in to kind of constantly do

3:31:27that um dragon gate is also good at that um but these these larger promotions like in in New Japan like you're actually starting to see it with new Japan where guys like Yoda Suji seem to be connecting with the audience in a way that like trying to push that saber junior or rocky godo didn't and I you know godo had some life in them but then we all know that was like on the nostalgia kind of you know gold watch run for him uh but like now you're starting to see like okay like Yoda Suji can maybe you know he's he I think Yoda's done a really good job like just with this comments and things like that really standing up for this new generation of ujapan and and kind of owning it um he's got that that that energy with him that I like um but that only kind of that happens with a younger you know talent that they can appeal to different things of course never to be as a issue where like it's like a bunch of old white guys making all these decisions that have no idea what's gonna connect with younger people so that's a whole other issue yeah for sure but but yeah I haven't swear in a giant funco pop yeah doing six seven still two like months after six

3:32:30seven was cool and it's like oh god uh this is not gonna work but um yeah it's it's a it's a it's a to real I don't want to say issue in wrestling because I don't know that wrestling is like suffering from it just yet but I think we're gonna start seeing the ills of it pretty soon because accompany the wrestling needs a steady stream of new stars it just does it just have established stars that are good it's not like you have to put all these guys out to pasture but you need to start making new stars and I think I and I do think that like there's an issue with like the long-term planning I think like AW has made new stars but it's taken a while for those guys to get integrated and you know it's kind of it's it's a interesting study like I was talking about this on my podcast with Trish but like you could have will will Osprey came in for right off the bat from youtube and to AW and he was he got over fast he was red eyes yeah and it was like she she belted up Osprey like we know he can do it like he's a he's a he's a you know he's a

3:33:33finished product for the most part this point once he kind of showed that he could actually like you know promo on American television in a way that was better than I anticipated to be able to do it um it was like all right should we put the belt on this guy and they didn't and that was a choice and I know uh will who is uh let's say in the Kenny Omega rock class of guys not wanting to uh be know oh god he would he you have to convince him to win most of the time yeah he probably thought you should lose it one way like oh absolutely yeah he was just like oh mate he sure I should win and they're like yes will yes he's like I don't know I think might be good story no rich he was demanding a kicks out at the one-wing age oh that's right yeah just a screw over everybody yeah yeah but anyway but like they waited for Osprey and I do think that the fan now like wants to have like this law and emotional journey with their fans and bookers are both good to do it yes yes they want that to happen and I think you can make a case that will because and this is again this is kind of like will might be a back example because wills like the

3:34:37greatest wrestler in the history of the world um but like we'll took some took his time and he gets over and he's still over as a top guy nowadays that champion and now he's got like a history and he's got rivals in w in a w and he's got this long sentence so if you want to do something like willos brancyle fletcher in 2027 where you put kyle fletcher over will has this whole history with kyle both in a w and new japan so it all comes across really well uh in that regard in that regard because he has this history before you just went all the way with him which does help but a lot of instances you're not going to have a wrestler that's as talented as willos brancyle that's why I'm worried about these guys like opa femian branc because they guys do have flaws and those guys need to be protected and booked more carefully than a guy who in a company like a w where if you are one of the you know best wrestlers in that company you're always going to find your way into a made-of-its-life because that's what gets you over in a lot of ways to the company. Yeah it's it's you know and you know I I framed this as like an age issue but you said at the beginning it's it's not

3:35:39necessary age and I don't think it is either. If opa femian was 37 and I have no reason to think why he would ever be 37 years old yeah um like but it would the same thing would apply. Yeah we talked about gootther earlier and gootther's no spring check and he's better but it's it's it's a under exposed and it's also familiarity thing and I think that that is really and I find wrestling fans as well especially modern wrestling fans are very much addicted to the familiar and the new and the unknown. Yeah and their faves and their faves are not always like the most popular wrestler it's some more obscure mid-carder that someone will get very upset if they're not getting booked properly. Yeah and they they they just I think fans and bookers that they're just attached to the familiar and this is somebody we know and we know what we're going to get out of them and we don't know what we're going to get out of these people but sometimes it's really fucking fun to watch a young wrestler emerge like I the energy last night when Stephen Borden showed up on on dynamite took his shirt off and had a pretty damn good wrestling match like he wasn't great. I thought I was I was so impressed with Steve. He was great and like our discord was blowing up people

3:36:39going nuts and I'm like yeah and and and Stephen Borden is not young he's like 32 or 34 years old everybody is yeah but it's it's like well we never seen this guy and it's like you you could hear this reaction to people the first time we seen this guy he just debuted and here he is he's doing this and this and and it was like there was an energy a palpable energy of oh this isn't a guy that's been on national TV for 10 years this isn't a guy like that we've seen on WWE television and then he was on NXT and then he went to New Japan and then he went to and now we're watching him in a W and he's got like 800 matches on tape or no it's like a guy we've seen one match on tape and it was like oh my god he's actually kind of okay and whoa look at this dropkick and wow he's got a good body or whoa he's got charisma hey the female audience really likes him and it's like yes this could be wrestling could be more of this all the time where this guy comes and is in a big like look Stephen Borden was the biggest like they think he was the most important linchpin of that entire episode yesterday obviously there was the rebel stuff and the Andy Williams and all that but the second half of the show was about Stephen Borden he was in a big time tag

3:37:40match he gets the win and then he was in a big he was there with the gumbags as the show was closing like they pushed it's even and it was so fun to see people get excited about it because it's like yes this is what exciting young wrestling can be like having under exposed wrestlers shop out of nowhere is it's yeah it can bomb sometimes it can be but I find it's super exciting and super interesting okay now I'm I'm fast I just see what's next and see more what's next to see more and whereas look no offense to someone like a Kyle O'Reilly I've watched a thousand Kyle O'Reilly matches I know what I'm gonna get out of Kyle O'Reilly I've seen whatever I've seen a bunch of and Kyle O'Reilly has great matches can Kyle O'Reilly had better matches to see more and of course Kyle O'Reilly can have better matches to see more but guess what I've seen a thousand Kyle O'Reilly matches I don't want to watch anymore Kyle O'Reilly matches I've seen a thousand Roderick's try matches I love Roderick strong I don't want to watch Roderick's trying anymore I've seen him for 20 years Russell you know I want to see I want to see Steve more because I don't know what the fuck is next in his career oh he's only seen one match of his ever like that is exciting for me and I don't know my fans don't find that but they do because they do because then yesterday they were really excited to see more and so I know that it's in

3:38:41there I know it's in there that fan but I think they're just because the companies are so addicted to the familiar that fans of kind of it's a self-fulfilled prophecy now with the fans who are like wow he's new he's not he's just he's he's just started so he's he can't you know oh sky's the limit you can do anything you want it's a fucking work you can push anybody you want being a partner is like a broader pop culture issue we're like like franchises and TV shows getting rebooted oh god yeah so this is not a prom unique wrestling like when when especially when the financials get higher people become less risk averse and the creative endeavors that they want to fund and that maybe can be like oh instead of giving this new director movie let's give let's reboot this old franchise and or it could be let's make sure this guy who's like 42 is in the main event because we can trust him as opposed to that again but which is so funny because the biggest you know movie of this year was a director out of nowhere spending a million dollars or whatever and it was like oh wow what a fresh take on and it's like yes people this could it could be this way don't you don't have to watch the 19th Marvel Universe movie well you can watch a fresh new movie from a fresh new director it's okay I would be moving in a slightly different direction

3:39:43as I could talk about that for a long time but yeah I was it's even more than the thing with him is that like in a w I think it's like a w is not a place for wrestlers to improve it is a place for wrestlers who are already great to it yeah it's not a yeah it's it's you're you have to be a finished product like I think like Steve more like like hook had a great debut and what happened in before a lot of the same things you guys did working on he was exciting he was he had a little bit some different about him like it was really cool when he maybe but he didn't work enough and he didn't improve and he like okay so this is basically going to do so I got worried about that with someone like Steve Gordon but I guess he really think that much about like what is his wrestling going to be like like I just like I don't know he's never wrestled before or he's he's never wrestled on TV before he's been working actually quite a few dark matches over the last few months but came out there and I was like oh like this guy is like way better like I watched that Steven board match and that triple Williams match like not too far apart from each other and like I think Steven Borden's better than triple Williams right now oh yeah oh yeah which how is that that

3:40:47like he was kind of like a better said he was he was he was he was a very you know controlled match of his tag team match he was working with two very good total professional wrestlers um and I would put the things I liked about I was that he wasn't afraid to lay shit in which you normally see with guys they're like afraid to kind of like actually make contact and stuff yeah and that's his opponents too the opponents also have to say brother don't worry about it lay it in it'll look better if you lay it yeah like you're you got to lay it in when you're fucking wrestling mark Davis but then like I might imagine working soft with Mark Davis he probably takes you back and he's like what are you doing it fucking heavy man like Davis is like my favorite wrestler oh he's the best yeah he's gonna be disgustingly high in my FSM 50 this year um but yeah he I mean he is he moves the any dude he's like fucking Mark gingerac he's like hitting like these fucking like he's like jump dude that's who I thought up when he's dropped kick and he's got the body and he's got the height and I was like this guy's like Mark gingerac can we get like Mark gingerac take two

3:41:49uh like we tried again there's there there's a universe where Mark gingerac becomes the biggest star in right where that entire the natural born thrillers all become the biggest stars and professional wrestling there there is a there is a universe where that happened but yeah but I I worried about like you know he's already like in a storyline and like you say he's a lunchpin which is great but long term it's just I would feel really great about his career if he like went to Japan for two years and then came back yeah he's not gonna he's probably not gonna work enough to actually truly get better because that's how you get better working 200 matches and it work in different styles and working with different people and things like that we've seen it with AW you know they've had these guys like I guess like you could point to like I think the guns have gotten better than when they first started oh yeah no definitely yeah but I think about like hook I think about Jay Cargill like you think about some of these talent that just not working that much the ground up and AW is gonna need a ground up system that's better than

3:42:49the one that they have now because the the talent is gonna think they're like the talent in the United States Indies is gonna be just so difficult because you have to sign these guys so early are they're gonna go to WWE and then once you sign them are they're working enough and all that stuff I think it's very difficult to develop talent now on the American side of things so you're really relying on these guys like going to New Japan for a few years to like actually get good and then you sign them but that's not gonna end for it that's that's a fountain that's already basically dried up to to a degree yeah very few guys like and I was I was in Brandon Thurston like two weeks ago but he was like oh you they might sign like AW you know it's gonna sign some more guys from WWE eventually I'm like who in WWE would AW even want to participate but guys don't be lost right now if they got fired or the country government they're like AW would be like oh we got a role at the red carpet for this unfortunately I think that they would be

3:43:50I think it'd be a lot of them because I think that a lot of people in AW are addicted to like sadly I think it would be a lot of those guys I think what it like it was not guys like Baron Corbin they get fired and they don't come in for work yeah I guess who's left I'm telling you that that main roster the main roster is pretty rough like like like Sammy and Kevin but those guys aren't going anywhere maybe if they got cut yeah those would be two guys that they would bring in immediately I don't think they should they should tell those guys they kick rocks Drew for sure they bring they bring Drew in immediately yeah let's let me look at Raw here so we had this episode of Raw from this week Otis I don't think they're signing Otis no I don't think they're signing Austin theory they would they would I think they would they'd sign Bronn breaker right away and they probably should I would do that don't tell me I know that'd be great I know I know we just like like guys would don't improve in AW but like I don't think he said just I don't

3:44:51think he could from Baker could just be allowed to be a fucking signer imagine a Bronn breaker Darby Allen match yeah just yeah and and you tell him no be a freight train drop people on their next you can land on your neck too it's okay it's fine I don't know things that Darby Allen would have Bronn breaker dude all right uh your point stands I am going to do breaker I said this for breaker to press is me man yeah oh yeah that's yeah he's he's he's legitimately one of the best athletes we've ever seen a former wrestler like yeah they're gonna fuck it up royally I was like like he did like you look at like a scene I know this is like fucking walk out stuff so it doesn't really mean anything but like and it's a senior day when he like was trying out the NFL the senior day he did like he ran like the third fastest 40 time out of any running back at the combine if he had gone to the combine any rant any did like like like as many reps of 225 as like half of

3:45:56alignment did it's just like a freak athlete and he adapted to wrestling really fast a lot of ways but he's stuck in that system is doing chin locks and he's like he should be giving Darby Allen a German suplex from the ring through the own state yes he should be doing a shoulder block that sends Darby Allen into the 19th row into the crowd is what he should be doing but every so good I makes me so mad yeah the whole PC makes me mad because they have all these sick athletes and we don't have like one to catch you more Shema or one Vader and they have all these fucking college football all I'm in like doing chin locks and and and fucking working like Otis yeah well I wrote about it I did a patreon post because they released a bunch of people and they released a former like this just this woman who was named PG Vasa was her name and she's got some you know I forget exactly where she's from but she's got like a very she's a rugby player from let me see what country it was and she looks like great you look at her look I don't know what her work was like it doesn't matter but her look was awesome and I was like how do you not like first off

3:46:59you name this person who was she's Samoan she's a big giant Samoan rugby player they name her PJ Vasa first off even though she's got like a great you know Samoan name or whatever her name's PJ Vasa I haven't seen her work but I guarantee you it's fucking slow she does a cartwheel before she does a punch or whatever it's like what are we doing like it's a fucking giant rugby player how do you not figure out how to maximize this like they people got to be getting with Brooks Jensen and watching their fucking yeah and they had like a this this woman she was like a Swedish power lifter that they sign and she never worked she was like the the strongest woman in Sweden yeah she looks like a million bucks and I'm like if you can't figure out how to maximize that woman then she looks like a million bucks she's a power lifter from Sweden like you can't figure out what to do with that like you can't even get her in the ring she can't even make it to the ring in your company like what is this is like when they went WWE fired EJ EJ and Joka and you go and Duka yeah yeah and like I never heard of him before but then I just like he'd like I

3:48:02was like I was like I'm like post-wrestling I had some photos of him and I'm like oh my god did Vince ever see this guy how do they fire him yeah right right right but obviously you know we've seen kind of what yeah yeah they may have been right on that one I just like the whole performance that I love the like it's such a great idea concept but WWE is so fucking bad at training and developing these talents that it doesn't matter like I imagine if the new Japan dojo got the kind of like athletic talents that the people first yeah yeah the insane yeah you give those guys to Eugene Agata instead of Norman Smiley yeah yeah someone said like I think she's beef in the discuits of the statement like he's like games supposed he has the most useless pointless job in the history of the world because he's supposed to be scouting talent for a company that doesn't like wrestling doesn't want wrestlers like games out here like scouting these guys like like he's gonna book them for a fucking ring of honor or an evolved show and it's like they have no idea what they're gonna do they're gonna give you a name from the NXT name generator and you're gonna

3:49:03you know be taught to do like a move that can be turned into a gift on social media so people can say oh my god yes yeah that's queen yeah and then get released right yeah oh boy all right so we have gone much longer than I thought you got to go to that at some time soon tomorrow morning no I imagine that's not a good thing nobody has to go to a good ceremony is it a good ceremony it's a 9-11 thing yeah that's not a good ceremony at all all right so we got to get to that to that and sorry triple mania I will not be previewing you I will review you you absolutely I know I'm so sorry Jesse we just we just ran out of time I had not anticipated talking triple mania with you and I'm guessing you're you're being sarcastic and I don't like your tone well you know I'm locked into ww program we talked about before and like what if I just did a bit where I'm like I just fucking loved son of nice made event I love

3:50:05wwe and it's like totally a typical of my behavior elsewhere yeah you're just a big triple a double to be triple a guy I'm just like a huge fed head and I'm arguing with you over stories and stuff like that like like rich it's a story Tatum Paxley and Charlotte Flair they don't like each other it's a story Tatum Paxley was called peculiar by Michael Cole it's a story it's okay all right Jesse the gentleman's wrestling podcast you can listen to it on the voices of wrestling podcast network like I said the article is is a new click controlling devotees main events scene we'll have a link to that in the show notes but the gentleman's wrestling podcast I'll let you have a minute or two to let everybody know about the show again they can find it on their podcast app of choice whatever app it is it's on there you can find it here at voice the rest in that comic you can find on the voice the wrestling podcast network but explain the show a little bit it's kind of what we just did there for the last hour and a half yeah the gentleman's wrestling podcast is a is a in general is a wrestling show where we take one topic and we talk about it and I have uh I kind of have like a revolving door like 32 guests that come on the show

3:51:11apparently not rich crate who's impossible one of these day I will probably promise yeah well you're gonna come on and I'm gonna be like we're gonna watch some dog shit wrestling beforehand that's fair also we gotta talk about NXT heatwave um instead um so it's a show yeah we just take one topic and we talk about like do kind of like a deep dive in like a serious kind of discussion about it uh most recently like I said where I had uh trished fears from the nutrition say our wrestling podcast on we talked about really the AW men's made it and seen and talked about you know what's next for will osprey um when let's kyle fletcher like are they gonna turn kyle fletcher baby face how is that gonna work he's such a natural heel kind of looking for like 2026 to 2027 into that I also had branded thirsted on a couple weeks ago we talked a lot about like ww's relationship with the spian and netflix and a little bit of a w's relationship with turner and kind of how those things are going those relationships continue to evolve so that's basically what it is um I also appeared on the NFL intelligentsia which is six hours and 14 minutes long rich

3:52:12that's a long one it's a long one yeah you came in at like hour four right yeah I literally came in I said that I was like yeah you want to see read my part like you can see it's so funny because Joe has his Dan Greenspin who's a beat writer covers the rams on and he is Tyler fornis who's uh uh covers the the Vikings and both these guys are like like just like actual professional like football analysis people and then joe has me on guy who watches football and i'm always amazed that like like the responses to this is so positive like people are excited that it's six hours long like they can't believe it six hours I can't believe it I'm like I can't believe I can't believe people like this I I'm surprised that the website can upload a six hour podcast it it becomes sometimes it becomes an issue sometimes that some of the shows yeah Joe was literally like pleading with me at the end he's like jr we gotta stop we literally do not have any more time we have we have to stop it's probably I want to squeeze in some Chicago's word stock on this on this one but I don't know what to talk about it's just that you guys are back

3:53:17this is the first when's the last time the cubs and the white socks were good at the same time the last time they're good at the same time was probably 2000s 2008 I think was the last time they were both pretty good at the same time try to remember if the cubs what the cubs were in the last white socks good years uh oh they were bad yeah that's when they were they were down okay yeah so it's been 2008 I think it's the last time so yeah things were really grim in Chicago not that long ago yeah what's happening uh the balls are still pretty grim don't don't let the balls fully well you got killer balls uh yeah that's nice that's he is going to the one thing I I I did note and this is one of the things about that summer week well the thing with the NBA is and it's not it's not like the summer league stats like don't matter but the NBA and and I know you know this because you you know ball and basketball is the way to you can tell when someone's going to basketball like almost immediately right like you can tell when a guy especially pro basketball yeah like after a couple minutes of watching a guy you're like oh that's a dude okay that is a

3:54:17guy that that's like the famous story is Michael Jordan showed up at Chicago Bulls training camp or whatever drove the lane and and and did like a layup and like a couple of veterans were like I was just fucking over it's done like this is no longer our league that guy like we can't hang with that and it's like after two minutes it was like two minutes and he did one move and they're like oh fuck we're done the reason one was like before I think the Olympics in uh 2024 like the T.U.S.A. was was doing like uh they're practicing and they had like the scrimmages and Cooper flag when he even started to do it yet he was like still like a high school senior played with like the scrimmage team and he was like getting buckets against like T.U.S.A. like a better play and like okay this guy's like this kid's like legitimately gonna be one of the best players very soon so Caleb gave me some of those those same vibes and summer league now yeah he had gotty stats or whatever but like you just saw it and you're like oh that's a man that's a man against boys yeah he's probably not gonna make like he's not gonna shoot like 90% from three really he might he might yeah I don't think he's gonna average like 20 and he was averaging like 30 and 20 and summer league I don't think that's gonna be a task and basketball these guys

3:55:19especially with the one that done Aaron things like it's gonna come so young yeah like people need to realize that like it's gonna wait a Cooper flag is just now like a college freshman yeah he's younger even by yeah he would be heading into his sophomore year as college because his twin brother is gonna be a sophomore of University of Maine it's got a suck to be the twin brother Cooper flag and he's like yeah it's gonna tough like you have an identical twin yeah and like you're good at basketball for sure brother is like I always thought about that with like the has like it's very strange despite the fact that he has the same genetics like you think like the Thompson twins they're kind of like the same player yeah yeah it's like insanely athletic like ace like I've seen him play like he's just like he's like he's like a fundamental like ground based like power forward he like doesn't have any springs which is just insane that his identical twin is always think about that like what was there just like a couple of practices where ace was like I'm gonna play video games the Cooper's like no I'm going to practice like and that's where it all deviated from there because you know the identical twin thing like you said I'm at it the Thompson's are pretty close the Griffins

3:56:22were initially the low peas were initially pretty close but yeah Griffin has one right doesn't like Griffin and his brother yeah he's just like horrible yeah he played like he played like a little bit I mean he played the little bit in the NBA yeah he was okay but uh then there was a while there were the Collins's there there was one of them I think I forget which one but like Jason and Jaron yeah but then like Jason was like a lot better and I'm also like man why did it like if we're to did where did it deviate from that you guys we're like we do everything together but like one of us is really good at basketball the other one yeah like there's like a huge gap between the flags though yeah that's and that's the most and like they're not like it's not like one guy's like a little bit like he's just more skilled like one guy's just like way more athletic than the other yeah yeah that I don't understand what happened that caused it but imagine your ace flag you're walking around uh show me this is a new new very main and like you're like six foot nine and you look just like Cooper's like yeah but they're like Cooper and you're like not ace though no I was identical twin oh I didn't

3:57:23know he had it to it like like you just like that just that's I think about that with us Steph and Seth Curry a lot too where it's like did Steph just like staying the gym a little longer and do more shots and and Seth was like yeah like because Seth had a good NBA career he's made a lot of money but like it's got to be weird to be like your brother is like the greatest shooter of all time your dad's a great shooter of all time and you're like yeah I'm an okay shooter that Seth Curry is my NBA comparison like when you play and pick up and you talk about like oh okay you guys were like I play like Seth very good not Steph Curry yes Seth I can catch and shoot it really well I can't do any of that other stuff yeah the layout package I don't have this stuff layout package yeah can't shoot off the dribble really but like if you pass me the ball through point line I can hit it yeah but yeah that's that's tough for for anyone but I mean if you're making the NBA then yeah you're still pretty good I got to teach him a connolly other day and I don't know whether to be up upset or not I was like is it because I'm like and laughing I mean you're like you make a free point or oh Larry bird like teenagers will say that

3:58:27to me and I was like you guys talking about Larry bird retired 25 years before you were born yeah there's a there's an older dude I play with who's in his like 50s and he's got a good shot yeah he yeah every he makes one shot oh damn Larry bird yeah like you know how nice it would be if you were like if he if he made a shot and you're like oh awesome Kelly Trapuka right I would kill for that I do a nice post move and they'd call me Tom Borwin called that would yeah I'm more a deep cut as opposed to me and I feel like also only white white guys okay yeah I got the teaching the connolly I thought was a nice little deep cut someone's like a plan pickups you might actually see someone that plays like TJ yeah well in the way that you're not gonna see someone that plays like design Williamson yeah right yeah that would be if you had a sign with some comp at your pick up game that's like something you're not gonna see like you might see like I like I'll pick up for you should have TJ McConnell yeah that's kind of I'm very grounded a lot of shoulders in a try to make space because I can't make my own space anymore but yeah

3:59:32it's I was I think I'm earlier and I like I went to block a shot and I realized that like I actually never actually left the ground like I went to jump and like my heels left the ground but like I still have like one foot on the ground yeah oh yeah I don't jump very much anymore I was I was playing not that long ago there was some younger kids I was playing with and one of the we're playing in one of the guys is like you know his friend came and then they they jumped in the the next game we had and the scouting report on me was ah that guy doesn't jump and I was like I jump and they're like no you don't now and I was like yeah I jump and then they're like well jump right now and I was like I'm not just gonna jump for no reason 38-9 years old yeah I could jump if I mean to I'm just not jumping because you're not making me jump I'll jump if I need to I'm not my latest progression in old man game is I'm now setting a lot of like like like I really like I'm getting off on like these blind picks setting something like just like craving someone on there it is yeah like a back like a back oh I love that fix yeah it's so good trying to apologize I'd not the guy is ass my power I don't know I was not much but I'm

4:00:35people telling me like oh you put your elbows up but it's not because they didn't see the pit coming at all I always say taught your teammates yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I say talk your teammates they didn't tell you I'm not I'm not fucking like cross-checking people pick up but like they're getting you know they don't see the pit comics as far as I'm not I'm not like a I wouldn't describe myself as a unit of a individual but if you can but they're not looking you and they run it and hit it I had one 18 year old friend he said I'm gonna knock you out if if you do that again I'm like okay but that would say it's all it's all it's all your teammates man they got to call picks out for you that's that's it's it this is the oldest we've ever sound is we're putting over our pick abilities this is probably good well we're both old we're now old heads of pickup I realized this a few years ago yeah it's good though it's a good it's a good place to be because there's zero expectations the best part about being an old head when you play pickup basketball is you can get like seven points like when I when we put a team together it's always like me and if we're at the gym and there's like newer guys will be like I don't know like me and just and it's like me uh 50-year-old guy a 45-year-old guy and we're like I will do us or whatever

4:01:35there I was like yeah okay yeah you get like a buffer you get like a five to seven point buffer because they let you and they're like oh all right all right these guys can play a little and then it's a game and then you can buy win I'm a five foot eight like kid without any athleticism so I'm very under as a player and really all I can really do shoot but I can shoot pretty well and I'm always good for like a couple just wide open looks if someone's guarding me and they have no way they've never played with me before and then they'll go oh wow I can't believe this guy can shoot and I'm like yeah anyone can shoot a basket that's not that's like I don't want somebody but it's it's it's it's the best when you when you're playing with new people they have no idea how to play the worst is when you're playing with somebody that knows all your moves yeah that is terribly yeah or they're just very very athletic and because I can't even I can't really create my own shot I'm kind of lying on like like just someone not guarding me and I'm in put in like in like trailer and transition for reasons stuff like that so like someone's like all right I'm just gonna like really stick to you like hand cuff you I'm like all right I'm probably like not gonna do anything over here in space floor in like in like in the corner yeah all right well this is the

4:02:38oldest we've ever sounded now we have to go to bed so anyway to make it to wrap up this show and how old we are I gotta go to my newspaper job oh my god it's so good all right yeah the last person that still works in a newspaper has got to go to bed pretty close there's not matter you're you're you're a last you are literally the last of a dining breed so congratulations keep it up uh anyway that is just a comment of the gentleman's wrestling podcast want to thank him as well as Chris Zelliner of between the sheets in the center stage chronicles for coming on the show and helping us here on the flagship and you guys got a four hour flagship out of us uh so congratulations to you as well but uh Joe will be back next week we'll have a full show as per usual uh next week but again Jesse thank you so much for coming on here and uh guys we will talk to you again next time take care bye New Japan pro wrestling is so back are you out of the loop you want to know what's happening before the rest of the Yankei d'Imbassos want to find out who be the top guys in AEW in 2028 and listen

4:03:40to the super j-cast from your authority of new Japan pro wrestling that keeps Chris Trout on up at night we come in new Japan at every level in the ring the backstage politics the cross promotional drama the history of what it all means for the future good to the bad and the great Ocon and no company glazing PR here no move by move recaps just brutally honest analysis unrivaled contacts inside the company that put the rest of the wrestling journalist the Shane and quite frankly irritating track records of being right for everyone else we broke the occada story we broke the forbid and door story we told you what was coming before i will fucking do it again super j-cast listen now then in three years pretend you knew it all along