The Future of the NZ Property Market: Tax Changes, Interest Rates & Supply

0:00Today I'm sitting down with honorary Alfred Naro, NZ First candidate for Glandin, ahead of this year's election. I first met Alfred at the Dawn Service at Waikimedi Cemetery seven years back, so it's good to finally sit down with you properly. Alfred has spent more than 35 years in leadership across faith, government and community work. Three terms in Parliament, including a stint as Minister for Pacific peoples. These days, he advises governments and leaders here and overseas on governance, and he's back campaigning with NZ First. One quick note before we start. MHQ doesn't endorse any political party or candidate. These conversations is about policies that affect your mortgage, your savings and your investments. It isn't a pitch for anyone's vote. We're getting into key resolver changes. House price affordability and immigration. This is the stuff that actually moves the numbers. If you're buying, borrowing or saving right now, this episode is for you.

1:04I'm Alfred, welcome. Appreciate you being here. And my first question for you is in relation to the fact that you've been away for a little bit, and now you're coming back. NZ First. Why NZ First and why they come back to the politics? Simon, it's good to meet again. I think we're both blueried at the Dawn Service about seven years ago. It was great for the Dawn Service because we were honouring the past while living in the prison. I believe that's really important because whatever we do, there's a foundation that's been built for us in this country. And so what does that mean? That means we need to do the best that we can, not only for us in the present, but also for our children, for the generations that come. And so the reason I went back in again to politics is that I believe that I have a contribution to make.

2:05I was asked again by the right of Winston Peters to come in and to make that contribution again to this country. So hence the reasons why I'm putting my hat back in the ring. I really like you being here. Your previous portfolio was in social housing, right, with the National Party. How does that background help you with the interest and with the politics? Yeah, so it might be a ground to originally coming out of schools in construction. And so it was an electrician. I did my apprenticeship. I worked for bigger companies, so understood industrial and commercial, electrical mechanics and so forth. And then became a salt trader. So I know what it means to be able to add on your own, make sure you get your PA while you give professional tax, all those things that you have to sweat with. And then at the same time too, that what I can add to it is then when I took on those portfolios about social housing, is that how do we provide affordable and accessible housing that we grew up with in my generation. And that we want to make sure that there is a ladder for those in this current generation.

3:08So social housing, the roles that government can play to support those in the private market like mortgage HQ and others is really important. Right. Now, I hear NZ First is positioning themselves to push forward a policy of a thousand dollar contributions to newborns that being auto enrolled as well. I think National Disprecious simply came out as well as something like the 1500, but making it compulsory. What's NZ First position on QS have ever been compulsory instead of being able to elect out of that? Yeah, I think the important thing is that so it's a bit of a generational thing Simon. So when I grew up, we used to have a thing and I'm sure your parents, because you're too young to know this, but we used to have a post book and a post book used to give us a little bank book and we'd go to school as young kids. And so we were taught at a young age about financial literacy and the value that they would add. This is the way that NZ First is wanting to say with Winston saying, let's put the value of our children at the forefront. We talk about the value of families, what does that look like?

4:10Well, we want to help them understand financial literacy, saving for their future and we think that's really important to be able to do that. Yeah, it's interesting that National then sort of came along and decided to put that up to 1500, which is great. And at the same time, making it compulsory. I think there's a thing that compulsory and as he said, it sets it up for every single child that's a citizen. But at the same time too, are the opt-in and opt-out. I think NZ First hasn't made that clear yet because we came out first and all of a sudden they've jumped on to add a few things. But the most important thing, the message we want to send to our communities and to our families, actually our children met at us. Yes, I like that messaging. I feel it's really important, especially when people are having children and I experience this as well. It's not easy, you know, having their first three children. I feel like these days were a little bit disjointed then maybe back in Yolde and my parents were, it was a little bit more widespread between the families where you had that support.

5:13My parents are still working and so I find it hard to get some of them to come over to the babysitter now and then I do get it. But what I mean by that is that any kind of support that we can provide people in those early years of having a family, I completely agree with. The compulsory part of it and whether it be birth or when you first start your job is the concerns I've heard with, for example, some of my clients, right? They will stop the contributions but they'll be very active with that cash flow and instead reinvest it elsewhere where they can get maybe leveraged returns for example. Obviously not everyone is like that though. You've been an arbitration in the past and I think you mentioned prior to that, I started that you got on to being self-employed as well so you know that world. Have we given anything thought in that space because I don't see the conversation. I just see compulsory, not, here we say what about the self-employed?

6:16Well that's a really good point. The one thing I did know when I was with the inside government, I mean the backman of our economy is actually our ECMEs. As we've got our corporate to know there's a role that they play. But on average there are around about 550,000, small to medium enterprises that are out there. I don't think we actually pay enough attention to actually how do we support that development that's really important because you are right. Because when you have into juggle, do you have enough cash flow and revenue that's coming in to be able to pay for your professional tax, your pay, why he but at the same time too, if you then got one child to children, right, and then you're going to have to continue to make your own key rescuer contribution, which as you know has just increased. And it's a juggling area. I think that we need to be careful that we give their flexibility. I know that New Zealand First is about to release its current manifesto between 206. I do know that there's a lot of conversation around that. Right. I won't push you for any secrets in that.

7:16I know that, you know, as we've mentioned here, your previous portfolio of social housing with some other ministers in with national. Was there, and I know there was some changes that Labor put in with a deductibility and it really forced behavior whereby we saw a lot of our clients saying, hey, how do we get a hold of these social housing guys so that we can rent our houses, the social housing providers. And the reason being is because of that deductibility on the interest component. Now that that's been scrapped, where do you see the role in private and social housing ministers working together to ensure that we have adequate, warm, great houses for key waste 11? Yeah, I think it's really important that when we think about, in the sense of the political scene overall, people then sort of divided into the left into the right. That's all about the different ideologies, the different thinking that people have.

8:16If you were then heading towards more to the inner scenes left and that's a predominantly sort of a flavor of green to others. So there more about the state more and there's more about public and so building up a state structure that can support people. Whereas when you're going to the right, there's more about a free market economy. It's about ensuring that actually less of government, more of community and more of the private sector, you know, sort of developing that as well. And so that's the reasons why you'll see the shift that's happened. So for us and for New Zealand, first, those are more sort of on the right hand side, sending right side of their political. We believe in a free market economy. We believe there needs to be a very strong relationship between the private sector and the public sector. Our role, responsibility, is to be able to have the conditions for more development. We shouldn't be the developer. Our development is providing for those that are in need and so social housing and the housing corporation now calling order is to be able to provide for those. And it's meant to be like a safety net, not to be a long standing sort of dependent state

9:19which people are captured in those homes in that condition. And so I believe it's important to say, so what does that mean? So we have ensured that there's, and you would have seen in 2025 in April, we said that the coalition government ensured that there was a one-up as a tax deductibility around interest. So that's really important. So that's the signal into the market. Actually, we want to see more of that development happening, why because we believe it's important. So for us, it's not about controlling it. I think the conditions that change when Labour was in government around accessing social housing, I think it still had certain strings attached to it. Around that, where for us, we just want to make sure that the market is accountable, but it's productive, providing for the demand that is there inside the market, the money for our communities. So that's what's important. No, I think it's a smart move to collaborate with private, as opposed to alienate, right? I do know that a lot of, most of our investors, they're not these like super rich people,

10:22they're just mum and dad trying to, trying a different avenue to get ahead and at the same time doing it right with the tenants. Like when I speak to them, they want to have good tenants, they want to have a good relationship with them, they want to supply dry safe homes. That didn't change when Healthy Homes came in with my clients. It just meant that little draft that required a test, hundreds of dollars to test, you know, get someone to inspect, plus small little things that the tenant really didn't care about. Really were expenses that they now have to take into consideration to make the numbers work. That flow on effect went to rents. We saw what happened under Labour with rents. Obviously there's a market shift, but there's also, I think, the policies as well, which I think over time has driven rents down. Now, I think the majority of it is the market, but in the oversupply of houses. But I think what's an important point here in relation to private housing and public is

11:25that we acknowledge that we're both trying to provide a service, as opposed to one alienating the other. So I noticed in the budget, there wasn't much there for first home buyers. That was definitely something on both sides of the aisle that was pushed really heavily last time around. So why are we not seeing much of that? So one of the things that, and as you know, there are three things around, especially around new builds, right? And rounding housing affordable to one, it's the cost of the products themselves. The second one is around regulations, and then the third one is around land supply. So that's really a big issue. So as you know, what the unitary plan conversations around the different local council areas and regional authorities, for Auckland in particular, as it go up or out, right? Do we build up and build it? And we realise we need both, so it happened. So I think it's really important to be able to move the city boundaries out. So now we're seeing some of the development happening.

12:26New Zealand first was very much about pushing for councils to look at, and also to creating with the housing commission and Ministry of Infrastructure, where can we have more land supply that can remain available? The second one is that, so it's working from the government. We need to work on other things to actually sort of make that housing more affordable. The other one was around regulations. I mean, it's everything from the RMA. And so the thing I found fast tracking is the way of being able to get there open to development happening as well. That's really important. And then the third thing is around the cost of products. So at the moment, still on average in 2026, so we cost it in the construction sector about per square metre. This is just the build of the house. So it's between three and four and a half thousand. On average, that's the medium at the per square metre. You know, you compare this to what's happening in Australia. We're looking at 1,500 to two and a half. So we're twice as much as what it cost to build here. So the things that we are looking at and have been looking at, things like anti-dumping tariffs so that you can reduce the amount of cost of products that are coming in.

13:30So therefore we reduce that. So those are the three things that I think both the coldest and government are looking at. However, there is good news that's coming. We know that on the manifesto for us, still on first, we will be looking at that as well. We did support around the Kiwi Saver as you know for first home buyers. That's been important. We've been in an increase from 3% to 3.5%. I think they wanted to take that up to 4% in 2028. And all of those things is because we want to, which is called first home buyers to have their capacity to be able to build that. As you know, the Brightline test now for our investors will know that that's been good. No longer five underlai but it's down to two years. That's going to be really important to invest. So I think it's more a systemic look in changing the broader landscape of how we can create more affordability, more flexibility, and more putty, more certainty into the market. I know that certainty is a key word that you often use. Why? Because in uncertain times, people either retract, people don't invest because they want to

14:33know that there's certainty in the investments. It's a massive flaw on effect. You know, I don't speak to any of my investors that want these massive increases in house prices. I don't think most people want that unless you're a true speculator. That word I feel is used way too much because people I work with, they're not speculators. They're looking to long-term property investment and provide a service to the market. And so on that point, there's a couple of things that are else on housing affordability. There was this big thing years ago about foreign buyers coming in and buying the housing market. This is the reason why house prices are going up. I think the data has become a lot more cleaner and the ban has shown that it doesn't really make any difference. It was years after that before we saw any downturn. There are some tweaks going on though. Peter himself was mentioning that he doesn't think it's much of an issue. What's your thought?

15:34Yeah, one of the things is that New Zealand First has always been very clear about, and it's in the brand of the name. It's putting New Zealanders first. How can we make sure that while we've got an open door to be able to have immigration come through, that's really important for investment and for development. And for people to be able to live inside the country, we want to make sure that we don't disadvantage our own people that are here as well. So the immigration settings we often use is two words, is it measured and is it monitored, right? So what's the amount of open door policy that we need to have around immigration? One of the skill sets that we're bringing in. You'll see that in different countries like even in Australia, just across the Dutch and the UK, people are struggling because they didn't have those clear sense of both monitoring and measuring. And while for a short term it looked good, things were flourishing and developing. But in the end, there's been a culture shift that's happened and the country's starting to suffer because of that. So what we want to have is we want to be able to make sure that those doors are open.

16:38And again, that's the reason why he's Minister of Foreign Affairs, right? Because we know foreign investment. So it's never been anti-immigration, though sometimes people have had a view, get a lot of tick-tock messaging that goes out there, people take short form of a speech, of a comment and make it the whole content. Rather than saying, actually there's a long form, there's a history that actually is very clear that it's not anti-immigration. It's actually speaking out against things that would jeopardize this country. We think about the FDA with India, for instance. One of the key reasons, just not about, in fact in the 2020 manifesto, it talked about a free trade agreement with India. So we would never against trade. We just ask questions, for instance, why is the Paris Accord affected into that trade agreement? Why is there an immigration clause that's going to open up potentially five to 10,000 working visas? We've got 175,000 people on the job seat of benefit struggling to get through. Just to make sure that conditions are right, that we're actually thriving out, we're growing

17:39our community and our people first before we open the doors. Yeah, that sounds sensible to me. You know, very little headed. So in terms of housing and for all, but there's been my last question on this. Is it all just supply? Or how much effort are we putting into interest rates, lending, lending environment? We saw in the wake of COVID-19 interest rates. We saw interest rates at 2.19, 2.15 fixing in for one year. You know, I took advantage of that, probably, but too much because when it came off the other side, it was like a bit of a shock. And it was for a lot of our clients. There has been essentially like a 40 year reduction in interest rates on average. So what does that mean for people wanting to buy as a first home buyer, for some investor buying a New Zealand?

18:40Where's the confidence that we're going to get some sort of like natural real growth here in New Zealand? Yeah, I mean, yesterday the OCR went up to 2.75%. I think most economists might expect to remain as big others as normalization because we know that our current monetary policy has to get to a point where we do stabilise. Obviously the concern, I mean the LCPI, the June quarter was 4.1%. And so I want to say that listening to different economists, so just I want to set the context first that people understand is that the geopolitics actually matter, the streets of a Muslim impacted fuel, fuel prices and so forth. And it's not just about petrol in your car, as you know, all is used for a number of different products that we use from tyres and so forth. So all of that impacts us and we're still in a volatile state and a lot of economists in New Zealand were often saying yes, we need to be careful. There is growth, there is development, there's confidence coming back, but it's not going

19:40to happen in the next maybe two, maybe two years, but we'll see things happening. They reckon that next year, I mean the Reserve Bank is really cautious because the prediction between 1% and 2% and 3% at the OCA, well we're going to get to probably 4%. And then that's the peak from what I said, then we'll start to come back down again. And so I think it's important to be able to make sure that we're signaling into the market that those things are what impact us. But at the same time too, we've still got a population growth, I mean, Auckland where I think we're about 1.6 million now and growing and still growing. The big issue is that we need to do to give confidence to investors and to developers, right? So before the investors, investors, they've got to have developers are the building old, new or renovating old. And so things like infrastructure is a huge issue that we're starting to find. And so we need to make sure that from a government perspective, what are we doing to give certainty to the market?

20:41And so that's the reasons why the infrastructure, whether it be about roading, whether it be about sewer, whether it be about power, and then the cost of power, that's really a big issue. So the cost of banking, for instance, and that's the reasons why. New Zealand First has been really sort of born, they're putting it out there that whether it's the power companies, their gen-taylor's around looking how we can actually reduce some of the cost of power. We're looking at the banking, 85% of our banks are owned by Australian banks. And so the whole thing about buyback BNZ, for some people sounds fast school, but the reality is, you know, Kiwi savers less than 8% Kiwi Bank, sorry. And the majority of our government departments don't even bank with them. Yeah. So how can we moderate the market at the moment when we can't? The only we can do is to be able to get back into our own sort of control is a bank, like a Kiwi Bank, to merge with the BNZ. And so that's the intent around that. So there are big things that are trying to shift that.

21:44And I think that we want to give confidence into the market as we know that when we shift those, that's going to bring some certainty back. So we are going to see some of that sort of reduce rate around mortgages. As you know, it's not the government that does that. Of course. But the government to have a role around sort of more the structural size of our society, of our governance as well. But I just want to say one last thing is that what I really like about, you know, again, creating in the back of our mortgage, Q to Z, you know, we're similar. So you're more advisory than sort of transactional. And you know, government is similar. I mean, yes, good policy is important to deal with the political problems, challenges that we have. But it's also should be creating things like greater choices, more opportunities, right? And creating that fine-short financial stability, that's really important. So we think about those things that New Zealand does. If we have a government that has the same ideology, then we're thinking about all the different key dynamics that add to that, I believe it will give confidence into the market.

22:48And by the way, as I walk around my community and we still can, there's still a lot of development that's happening. Oh, yeah. And it's all, like I mentioned to you, I've born in Braden West Auckland. And I'm currently now in Tamaki region. I want you to have a guess of something for me. Okay. So I'm in Tamaki region. And it's a seven lot development. It's in Tamaki region. And like we've had almost a 20% drop in values since I purchased this property. Right? So I'm really, my margins really coming down. But there's seven properties, six new properties. Have a guess at how much my government contributions are. Maybe even per unit. So, no. You wouldn't want to try. Well, I would like to 50% of the full project. It's about, yeah, close to that.

23:49So I'm spending almost half a million dollars on just government contributions. I still have to do the stormwater sanitary sewer, the electrical, the water lines, everything. I still have to pay for all of those connections and the upgrades and the local vicinity. But I'm still contributing $500,000 to this maybe three and a half to four million dollar project as a contribution. Now it is an outlier. Tamaki has got some massive things going on on. You storm water lines through the roads and bits and pieces all the way down to the sea there. It just goes to show how much is strangling that. And it's because we've kicked the can down the hill so long within the structure. So my question you mentioned about, do we have the key people to do the roles for immigration? What about the effects of the numbers into the cities?

24:51Are we thinking about that? Yeah, look, I totally agree with you. I think that's the reasons why that with New Zealand First and Wushanjo, the Interpreter and provincial growth fund, were the only political party that's had that. And look, I've been recently traveling around the provinces for the last seven weeks. All the way down in South Island and I was down in Queensland. I know Simon, you're going to see someone. It's a tough place to go. And then I had to go to Wanaka, you know, and even tougher. But it got real when I went to Goa, right? So it hasn't changed. But those provinces are needing that development. We need to be careful there. We don't want to see Auckland. Yes, Auckland is the metropolis, right? It's more than just a city now. It's become very incredibly big. But how do we create sort of economic activity happening so that people see that actually there's opportunity outside of Auckland? And why it's a very growth? Yeah, it's a very positive. And so that's why the provincial growth fund is really important. It's really significant to that. But just sort of touching back based on what you were saying. There's been too much sort of deferred maintenance. That's happening in city councils and others, right?

25:53That was when they went through that whole sort of three waters because the water infrastructure, I mean Wellington's a classic case right. It's just, it's at a crisis at the moment. And so I think that in some cases it's been unfair that some of that cost has become to the burden of developers and those who are developing properties. I believe that what's happening now is that New Zealand First has been really clear. We've got to get other development in the provinces. But also to when we think about what the development looks like, for instance, in some cases in the South Island, I could be mining other development. We wanted to make sure that 50% of the world is going back into the local community. So we need to keep feeding our communities with the opportunity to develop them and what they're doing. And I think that's what's important to be able to do that. But I think I almost got a right 10 to 15% of contribution. Yeah, yeah. But you're right, the margins are difficult.

26:53You know, you know, I mean, depending on where the market is, and you'll know this better than I would. But I think there's a bit of buoyancy that's coming back. You start to seeing it in a amount of listings that are going on. You know, I started to see that people are starting to actually come out now. I still do think it's like a, and the stats are clear. There's always like a waiting game, but it's the election, right? And people, like a lot of people are terrified about these tax implications that the left might bring in. It's right. Right from, you know, wealth is a huge one, you know? Like, the biggest one for me is like land taxes and these capital gains. I just don't understand how they expect my grandmother, who has got, you know, at the time, was modest time, but now it's in allosly or it's in, you know, in those areas that are becoming a lot more affluent. But because it's worth, say, one and a half million, two million nowadays, she blinks twice when she hears that number, by the way, because she said, what, that's crazy.

27:54My house isn't worth that. But on paper, it is. Yeah. And if you're going to tax that person, how are they supposed to pay it? They don't have any income that we've talked about. We've heard these ideas reverse mortgages. Yeah. Do you want to drain the wealth of the family before that person spent their whole lives working and passing it on to their kids to make it a little bit easier for them? You want to drain it through a reverse mortgage before it gets to them? Yeah. It just seems. And I go back to the point, so I'm in that it's all about the ideology that often goes behind that because when you think about what's driving, whether it be the inheritance tax, it's a land tax, you know, the capital gains tax, it's just constantly there because their way of generating revenue, right, to basically help sort of support, you know, the country is by taxing. And they start doing this whole thing around the wealthy, right? And so now you're starting to separate the country between the rich, the haves and the have-nots. Now people start to have that as part of their social conversations around their workets, even more challenging you may have seen that on the news now, just what's been happening

28:57in parliament, right? So now all of a sudden, one party that's on the left is accusing people for having another house, you know, and then all of a sudden I see. So there's this thing that's saying that it's actually looking down at people who number one work had, right, that are smart enough to know how to use the equity in their property investment and then be able to get more civil financial freedom. And it's almost like they're trying to judge people and criticise people who would do that. In other words, there's this ideology and it's a socialist ideology, we should all just be the same. Well, the reality is that we're not. It's a thing called human nature. And so I believe that what you're saying is right that we need to be careful that taxation is not the key, right? And if we want to create prosperity, then we need to create, like what's happening in the market with mortgage and so forth in investment, we want to have an investing, which is called country, that people see the benefits of that. I had friends and family who were working for Shazie, for instance, you know, this is

29:58another player in the market. And I think one of the things is that there was always a concern because the investor was in the non-productive sector of, and sometimes the property can look at that. So what it is is that often those who are smart enough, they use it as a way of building a base, right then looking at other opportunities. To me, that's, and I agree with you, there's the speculators, those who are out there, and governments then often do that. And this is people who don't have the experience of knowing how to manage the situation. So they take two bad apples and then they basically change the system. But you and I know that actually, if you've got 80%, 90% that are actually functioning well with the right intention, and maybe 10 to 15%, you know, that have the wrong intention, then you manage the exception. You don't change the system. So to me, don't change the conditions for investment, for development, for our SMEs to thrive. But actually look at those who are breaking the system, breaking the law, and actually then you need to then target them and wrap a strategy around addressing that issue.

31:00And I believe that's what happens. We see, and that's why they say the pendulum goes from left to right, left to right. Because the ideology shifts. Yeah, I think there's two things in there. One, I find the conversation, there's a bit of education required. And you see even some top guys that I think even know it, they just play on the way they talk about it with regards to how tax works. Right? They say, I'll just tax people. They have more money. They say, what do you mean by money? Are they sitting on a house? They don't have any cash flow. How do you tax someone like that? And then more importantly, they've paid tax on that one way anyway. They're passing it on to the kids. What are they going to be using it for? And the next one is like, well, I think we all see as an inevitably true, is that there is this global corruption in terms of offshoring money, which with your point about separating the rich, a.k. someone who's got a business in one or two houses versus someone who's

32:05can't quite find a job. You're separating those two people in society in New Zealand, but you're not even talking about some of the biggest root problems with regards to the leakages. That's right. So I would like to see more education and specifically talking on those points about how we can actually make a difference as opposed to like having each other at throats. No, it's just, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense to me. Do you feel like there's anything that you can say to anyone who looks at NZ first and I would consider say maybe sensible immigration policy and maybe there being scam mungered in your electorate, Glen Dean, right? What do you say to recently immigrate family there that trying to build well? Yeah, so one of the things is that both of us having grown up in West Auckland, I often refer to as the home of the pioneers. People came from, you know, with Māori Pacific, Asia, you know, there was the Croatians

33:08that came, their little Lebanese family, Corbin wines, you know, their little Lebanese family as well. And so I called it the home of pioneers because there was, it was made up of migrants coming into the country and you worked hard, you worked smart. But I mean, I can tell you this, I never knew anyone who lives in a state house, still don't, in West Auckland. Why? Because people could buy their homes, whether it was the time in which you could capitalize your benefit to get a deposit on a home or people just worked, you know, and you had things like there was the classic key, hey, home that was there, the fibrolight clad, how I remember, you know, and so people could buy homes and get a head. And so I just want to say, you know, I have that inside of me and also so does NZ first. You're going to provide opportunities with its migrants, second, third generation families that are there. You want to be able to work for that house and that home. And why does the house become important? Some people say the dream is over, you can never do it. It's important because what I found is that in the community of West Auckland, when the

34:09majority of people own their homes, people were committed. They were loyal because it was their community, it was their house, it was their home. You know, people mowed their lawns on a Saturday, right? They were out there weeding, cleaning, when you had to do the driveway, there was the one concrete mixer in the street and everyone would share it and you'd go and make, you know, lay the concrete at home because it was your home. And so I want to say to people that, investing in home is important. It's more than just, you know, an asset to own. Actually, it provides a stable place for your children. It provides an opportunity for belonging to a community. And then the smart thing now is that we're learning that actually we can use the equity of that asset to be able to give us greater financial flexibility into the future. To me, that's really important. And so that's at the heart of New Zealand first. That's what we want to see. The little TikTok messages that people talk about, whether it's about, you know, the issues are as the anti-Chinese, as the anti-Indian, as the, well, he's not. Listen to the long form.

35:10Actually, understand what Winston's been saying, what New Zealand first is saying. And you see that we're on the record wide because we want to make sure that we are one united country for our purpose. And that is for peace and prosperity. That's important. And so you can't just tack you away out. We want a prosperous, thriving country. Alfred, thank you. I appreciate it. I couldn't think of any better closing points there. And to everyone that's listening, the number side of this conversation is what's really going to move the needle. We save our settings, housing supply and migration, all feed into what you can borrow, what you'll pay and when you can buy. That's what we're here for at MHQ. If any of this has raised any question about your own position, book a call with one of our advisors, the link is in the description. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you in the next episode. Alfred, pleasure. Thanks very much.