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Most speakers don't have a pricing problem.
They have a value communication problem.
In this episode of The Speaking Club, I'm joined by pricing expert and speaker David Abbott, creator of the Platypus Pricing Process, to unpack why pricing feels so uncomfortable — and what to do about it.
Because whether you're pitching a keynote, a workshop, or a programme…
If your price isn't landing, it's rarely about the number.
It's about how it's being framed, understood, and perceived.
In this conversation, David shares practical insights to help you move beyond finger in the air fees, stop second-guessing your proposals, and start pricing in a way that reflects the value you actually bring.
If you've ever hesitated when quoting your fee… or quietly adjusted it to "make it easier"… this one's for you.
What you'll discover:
• Why most pricing problems have nothing to do with numbers
• The hidden reason your price feels "too high" to clients
• What really happens when you discount (and why it's risky)
• How to make your price feel safer — without lowering it
• The mindset shift that changes how you approach pricing completely
• What experienced professionals still get wrong about pricing
• How to reposition yourself when you want to charge more
• The difference between explaining your price… and justifying it
Enjoy!
If you'd like to watch the video of the episode, you can do that here>
Guest Information:
Website: https://www.davidabbottspeaker.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/diabbott
Books & Resources*:
Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
Speaking Resources:
Grab Your From Blank Page to Stage Guide and Nail the Topic for a Client Winning Talk: https://saraharcher.co.uk/newguide-tsc
Want to get better at finding and sharing your stories then check out our FREE Five Day Snackable Story Challenge: https://www.saraharcher.co.uk/challenge
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To help the show out:
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*(please note if you use my link I get a small commission, but this does not affect your payment)
Hello, you're listening to and watching Sarah Archer, an episode three hundred and thirty four of the speaking club podcast
And I'd like to open this show with a quote from the wonderful speaker and sales guru Zieg Ziegler
People don't buy for logical reasons. They buy for emotional reasons
I started this podcast for two reasons because I want to help people recognize the power of stories and humor and speaking
And because I believe it's your message that counts, not the number of uns and ours you use
There are some organisations that want to create robot speakers
They want you to sacrifice your personality in order to speak perfectly
I want to let you know that you can be yourself and a sensational speaker
So, if you want to be a speaker that connects and engages authentically through stories
A speaker that gives value as well as a great performance, then welcome home
If you've ever found yourself lowering your speaking fee or hesitating when someone asks you
What do you charge? Or wondering whether you're actually charging what you're worth
Then this episode is going to be a doozy for you
Because pricing isn't just about numbers
It's about confidence, positioning
And also how clearly you can articulate the value that you bring
And my guest today, David Abbott, is someone who spent years helping businesses and speakers get this right
He's a pricing expert, he is a professional speaker
And he's the creator of the brilliantly named platypus pricing process
Which we will definitely be getting into
And in this conversation we are going to be exploring why most pricing problems are actually communication problems
The psychology behind what people are really buying
And how speakers can stop undercharging without feeling like they're pushing or overpricing themselves
So, if you want to be better at charging what you're worth and getting paid for the value that you create
You'll want to listen to this one
Without further ado, let's dive in
Welcome to the speaking club, David Abbott
Thanks for your advice, lovely to be with you and how are everybody out there?
It's great to have you on the show
I was fortunate enough to see you in action live just a week ago
So, I already know the answers to some of the questions that I'm going to ask you
But I'm excited for the audience to get those golden nuggets that I got last week
So, let's get cracking
First question I wanted to ask you, David, is how did you shift from being an engineer to becoming a pricing specialist?
It must have been a long journey, doesn't it? There's a bit of a gap in between the two
I really enjoyed being an engineer
It's great, if you're interested in that kind of thing, I was in the electronics design engineer
It's like being a crossword enthusiast and you paid to do crosswords all day, it's fab
But there are a couple of things, as I progress through my career, there are a couple of issues
One is, it's fantastic being an engineer, managing engineers is a pain in the backside
But the other thing is, I've received a specification, something that somebody wanted
In the days when I was designing integrated circuits, you had to be a specter in the integrated circuit
So I go away, I design the thing, get it manufactured
At the end of it, you've got this black thing with legs on it
And that goes into a product and it goes out into the marketplace
So the somebody out there figuring out what the trends in the marketplace are, what customers really need
What problems could be solved and come up with ideas
And then from that, we're approaching me with that spec, I do my bit in the middle
Then they go off and they learn shit and they promote it and they decide on the price for it
They do, all the rest of it, there's a whole great big commercial process
And I'm responsible for one little slice in the middle
And I was just interested in the broader picture
So I made a move from product design into product marketing
Which is very much around the trend forecasting and what are the appropriate technologies to use
And then from that into marketing communications, then does a marketing qualification
Then senior roles in marketing and pricing is one of the elements of marketing
People used to talk about the four P's of marketing, it's seven these days
And the four P's, the classical ones were product price, place and promotion
And you can find books galore on product, place and promotion
Not many on price, so it seemed like there was a bit of a gap and here I am
You filled that gap
Now you've developed what you call the platypus pricing process
Yes
How did that quirky name come about?
And what's the big idea behind it?
I would love to say with it stands for something
P's for profit and L's for, I don't know, whatever
Nothing like as clever as that
When I first developed the content and started speaking about it
It was just called the psychology of pricing
And there's a huge amount of detail that goes into a pricing process
There's all sorts of different stages
Warm bit of it is, how do we communicate a price effectively?
And that's the psychology bit
That's the interesting bit that audiences like to listen to
Because we're all very quirky and it's a lot of fun
Finding out just how weird we are
But the psychology of pricing is a little bit boring
And when I first joined the PSA
We had a number of conversations around this
But with people within the region that I was part of
And the mastermind group that I went along to
And I remember people talking about it at other speakers
There's some people written the book
Why nobody ever washes a rental car
And I've never read the book
But I may have got a word or two wrong in the title
But it's going to be close, it's memorable
And it kind of sells something as well
You can see why nobody washes a rental car
They don't own it, you know
You can kind of guess what the message might be behind it
And I was just trying to find something that had that kind of
Sticky, memorable kind of name
And it was literally in the meeting
I was just talking about things
And the bit of illiteration just suddenly came out of nowhere
How to price your, we were talking about the whole bunch of things
And the platypus was just suddenly there
So there's no much silence behind it
There's no clever acronym or anything like that
Since then, so what was that?
I don't
2012, something like that
Since then, I've had occasionally a little bit of pushback
From an audience where they'll say, you know, great topic
And all the rest of it
But you know, it's a serious subject is pricing
And the platypus is a little bit white-hearted
You know, you could drop that
No possible way
Because the number of people that have got in touch with me
And said, I heard you five years ago
They couldn't remember your name
But on Google Platypus and pricing, and there you were
You know, the beauty of something like that is
It is sticky, it's memorable
I mean, become known as the platypus pricing guy or whatever
But it's a fantastic handle
So it's staying
Yeah, no, it's brilliant
And I think having seen it in action
The concept of a platypus, you know, the awkwardness of this
The sort of one-offness of it
It really works well with the theme of your talk
And your sort of idea behind everything
One thing that I just wanted to just go back on
In terms of your engineering background
You know, and there's a process
Some of that, do you find that having had that background
It means that you're approaching this subject
From a slightly different angle
Or have you sort of really discarded that engineering stuff?
Well, it's a fundamental part of me
And you gather in Tangle Cause and Effect, you know
I don't think it's an engineering
It's something that made me what I
The kind of person I am that's highly driven by data
And you know, in the colour profiles
I'm a very high blue
The reason I went into engineering in the first place
Will it be because of your huge affinity for numbers signs
Three maths A levels, you know
That's the kind of person that I am
So I like data, I like research
When I am presenting, you saw this on the slides
If there's some academic research
The Baxter, the particular concept that I'm talking about
So I'll quote the research
You know, if you're supposed to go and read it
Dolly Boots, you know
Cause I find all of this incredibly interesting
So it's just
We'll have fundamental characteristics don't we
And that's just part of me
I like numbers data and evidence
Excellent, and I mean the interesting thing though
You know, you've got that affinity for numbers
Most people will think that pricing is all about numbers and data
But actually, it's the antithesis of that
It's more about psychology
So why do you think it is that emotion is more powerful than logic
When it comes to price and buying decisions
Emotions more powerful than logic in almost every single thing that we do
You hear people
I'm going to butcher the saying
But there's something along the lines of
You can't argue somebody into a position using logic
Whatever their current position is
They didn't arrive at using logic
Almost nobody arrives at their existing positions
About the world or the positions about
You know, a particular thing that's in the media or whatever
Because of logic
You know, they arrive at them because of a whole bunch of things
It's all of your experiences up until that point
All of the stories that you've told yourself in experience
All of the stories around
The particular thing that you're listening to right now
How those stories are delivered
We're storytelling animals
And it's stories that communicate points
So when I do talk about the platypus
Although I'm a numbers guy and I do like the research
As you saw
I don't say right
Here is this paper
If you look at chart number four
I'll take
Look at the data trends
There's none of that
We tell some stories around pricing
I'll tell some stories about organizations I've worked with
Or things that I've seen out in the marketplace
Whatever they are
They bring the thing to life
And that's how we connect with each other
It's through those stories, isn't it?
So it's the only way
You know, professional speakers tend to be professional storytellers
And that's something that you know something about as well
I mean, if we ever doubted
The fact that we're driven more by emotion than logic
We only need to see what's happening in the wider world
To see that played out
Unfortunately
But anyway, we're leaving that aside
But to do that, there's definitely something on display right now
One of the things that you've said
And it came across in your talk
Is that most pricing problems
Are really value communication problems
I wonder if you could elaborate on that
What you mean by it
And also how people can start fixing that
Over the past four, there are 10-12 years
I've been speaking to a lot of CEO groups
And if people are familiar with what a CEO group is
The biggest in the UK is something called Vistage
And a CEO group, there's a 12 to 14, 16 Founders, MD, CEOs of an organisation
They meet once a month, business speaker in the morning
And in the afternoon, if there's an issue at work, they bring it to the table
And they get the help over the else
We're not talking to a CEO group
I have a look at all of the websites for all of the members there
Because I create bespoke examples of the content that I'm going to deliver
To bring it to life
And I've spoken to around about, well, typically about 20 years
So if you do 12 years, time of 20, a year, time of 15 in a group
I'm not going to try and do that now
Because he's in the thousands, that's how many websites I've looked at
To create those bespoke examples
And I would say that 95% of those websites talk about
How long we've been in business when we were founded
The awards that we've won, the things that we do, the incredible machinery that we've got
We've got five access, something or others that allows you to do this, that's all the other
Very few websites talk about the outcome that you're going to get when you work with us
A value that we are going to deliver
And that's the key thing that every single customer, clients, whatever you're to call them, is looking for
They don't really care about how you're going to do something
They care about the difference it's going to make to them
And most organizations could do a better job of defending the price that they go to market with
Or actually increasing their price if they clearly communicate the value
Remember things that I say every single time to every single audience says
It's not the customer job to work out for themselves
What value they're going to get from you
It's your job to clearly communicate that value
And given that the vast majority of websites that I look at don't do a good job of doing that
If you do a good job, you will stand out
And I know I'm talking about websites and focusing on that because that's the public facing
Bit of the organization that I can actually look at
But at any time I've worked with the client, the rest of their marketing materials
Tends to be very similar, you know, their pitch decks, their brochures, whatever it is that they send out
Even I did some work with a distributor
I'm not going to say what the product was because they're the largest in their field
And if I'd named the product it would be instantly obvious who it was
But I spoke to the senior sales team before I actually did the same session that you've seen
The platypus pricing
And I asked them, why did people buy from you when they said, well, you know, we've got the biggest range in the marketplace
We carry all this to everything next stock
We've got fantastic processes so we can deliver it the next day
It's really high quality stuff, we back it up with fantastic technical support, we do this
You know, we've got a big list, they didn't mention price
And then I got hold of their marketing materials
And every single thing was lowest price, sale, from
You know, all of the marketing materials was about, we're cheaper than somebody else
And none of the communication was about, this is just how good we are to justify the price that we want to charge in the marketplace
And that's not an uncommon gap
So, you know, I really do focus on value, it's simply because in my experience,
70 companies are really, really poor
And understanding what value means for the customer and then communicating the way in which they're going to deliver that value
That's really interesting, I think what's coming to my mind is that
It feels now in the current sort of economic business climate
With all the uncertainty that people are facing in all different aspects of, you know, life at the moment
That there is a hesitancy in making some decision, some buying decisions
And that can result in the temptation to look at making things cheaper, more affordable
So that it becomes easier, cycle even think that it will be easier for people to make a decision
If the price is cheaper, given everything that's going on at the moment
How would you say that's true or would you argue against that and focus back on value?
There are elements of truth in it, obviously
And in some particular markets, it's more true than others
So for example, in every corporate role that I've ever been in
If there's ever a downturn in the market and the company feels it needs to tighten its belt
All training courses stop
And the marketing budget suddenly gets smaller
Because they feel like their discretionary spends, you know, within an organisation
So it is the case that industries face tough times
Depending on what's going on in the world and what's happening in your marketplace
And what the competition is doing and a whole bunch of different factors
The issue that I have is that for most organisations, the one tool that they think they've got in their toolbox is price
So if things ever start to get a little bit difficult, right?
Well, we need to start dropping our prices, you know, undercut everybody else
We'll protect our market share or we'll protect our revenue while the market is actually declining or whatever it might be
But they're ignoring that everybody else in the marketplace is looking at them and thinking along the same lines
And you're rapidly getting into that race to the bottom
And I would rather try and find ways to focus on the brand and the brand what the brand means for the customers
So I'll come back to the brand just in a moment
Now this is more of a marketing issue
But really focus on communicating the value
If you can justify the price that you want to charge, then let everybody else go down
It's not true there, so all customers always go for the cheapest price in the marketplace
You only have to think of our own buying habits
How many people own an Apple iPhone?
There are cheaper phones in the market that do everything that an iPhone does
Even if you're bought into the whole Apple ecosystem and they all talk to each other
I had an iPhone for many years while I was still on Windows PCs and didn't have an iPad
And it was the only Apple product I had, I still had an iPhone
There were lots of people like that
But there's something about the value, the ease of use, the box it came in
You think, if you've got an iPhone, I remember there was a thrall down my spine
When I got the phone home and I picked up the lid of the box, the whole box came with me
And then the bottom, slow, I think I did the box three or four times before I took the phone out
You know, the much more complicated we think that every customer out there is a really simple decision-maker machine
If you meet the spec then whatever the lowest price is, that's always going to get the business
And then we personally, we make much more complicated and sophisticated decisions
The thing about brand was, join COVID
A lot of companies stopped spending money in response marketing
Where paper clicked, that kind of stuff
For whatever, perhaps, if you're selling online, that's fine
You can still go through the year, the post
But if you're trying to drive for people to a physical location and they're not allowed in the shop anymore
Then you can save all of that money or you can spend some of your marketing money on other things
There are quite a few analyses after COVID, you're to after COVID, to look at
Or that happened during those years
And it looked like those companies who invested in their brand
So in building the brand perception, the understanding of the brand, the value of the brand in the marketplace
That not only drove sales during the period in around about the same levels as the response marketing used to do
But it actually built market share coming out of COVID
And it's just illustrating that we want the comfort
There are a lot of psychological things going on
So if you buy something with a brand on it that you know and trust
There's an element of less risk or an element of self-esteem
Or from a person's perspective, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM
There's an element of things that's tough
I could save a little bit of money
And if the production line stops because of my decision
I'll lose a bucket load of money trying to get the damn thing going again
My job's on the line
Or I could go back to the premium supply that I've used all of these years
And know for absolute certainty that that line is not going to break down
And everything's going to be absolutely fine
And a price actually communicates something about what to expect
So if you do have a quality product and you push the price down
You're actually communicating that maybe it's not such a good quality after all
Interesting
Actually, me just reminding me
There's a client that I did some work with
This is an electrical wholesaler
And they had grown from £10 million turnover
Making £1 million profit to £20 million turnover
Making £200,000 profit
So they've gone from 10% operating profit to 1% operating profit
And it was because they got discount happy
They were chasing growth
And the only tool that they had in the toolbox was
Will drop our price
If we've got the lowest price, we'll get the sales
Well, they've got the sales
But it has a vastly reduced profit
So they've put people making a movement pounds
And now they're making £200,000
In what way is that success?
Yeah
And they're probably having to work harder to get more sales
The price is hard
They've gone from £10 million to £20 million
The record price is hard for less money
In what universe does that make any sense?
No, that's really interesting
And I think that whole...
I mean, we're back to the psychology again
Like status drives so many buying decisions
In a resource of different ways
And whether you're trying to protect your status
Or flaunt your status or whatever it is
You're absolutely right, that's so interesting
Okay, so four-setting prices then
You know, you talk about the platypus
In terms of setting prices, most businesses
Still priced based on cost or competitor benchmarking
And you're talking about value
You know, what is the smarter way for them to approach pricing?
There are...
We're getting into the technical side of pricing now
And quite away from the psychology behind this
But there are a number of tools that you can use
In certain circumstances
It's possible to figure out what value you are delivering
And then there's also sort of research
That suggests that people are
In general prepared to pay somewhere between 5% to 20%
Of the value that they receive
So if you're doing something
It's going to create 100,000 pounds worth of value for somebody
Then a fear between 5% to 20%
Somewhere in that range
That's quite a big range, but I'll come back to some of the tools
But there's a...
In theory, if you're going to generate 100,000 pounds for them
And if you charge 90,000 pounds
They're still getting 10,000 pounds extra in theory
If they're purely logical, they'd still be happy with that
In reality, where they think that you're taking the Mickey end
And they draw that they rather not do it at all
They give you 90,000 pounds and they only get...
You know, all sorts of human factors are coming to play
But so between 5% to 20% feels further people
So that's one aspect, you know, trying to understand
From a monetary point of view
And money isn't the only way that we compute value
Value mean many things to us, but money is just one of them
Do is, there are a whole bunch of tools that you can use
Things like Gabor Granger or Becket de Groot, Mars Shackle
There are tools that you can use to establish people's willingness to pay
And I'm not going to go into the detail of them
There are Wikipedia pages and all of them
There are willingness to pay tools in the marketplace that you could employ
And that then involves a little bit of research
And just asking people what there would be prepared to pay in certain circumstances
And then thirdly, there is a tool that I use with pretty well every single client
Which is a comparative value tool
So this tries to figure out how do people perceive your value versus your competition's value
And then you can plot that on a horizontal axis
Where you've got 100% is you can do everything that particular customer client can possibly imagine perfectly
So there are tools that allow you to compute the value
So you work out as a percentage of that
The maximum possible value that you can deliver
Where might you be and where might the competition be
And then if you've got some idea of the fee you charge versus the fee that they charge
Then you can do a scatter plot
You can see and you can see what we use, sit relative to everybody else
Not just in terms of there's a range of prices out in the marketplace
Which is what you said
You can see right, most organizations is either cost plus
Add all of our cost together stick and margin on
Or we'll just have a look and see what are the prices in the marketplace
And it feels like we're at the premium end so we'll price towards the top
Or it feels like we've got some cost efficiency so we'll price towards the bottom
By doing the scatter chart you can see exactly where you've fit compared to over the else
And then you can make a specific decision as well
I'm actually delivering quite a lot of value
I'm going to deliberately price up here
And it might be higher than anybody else's price in the marketplace
But I think I'm delivering more value than anybody else in the market
So you get that picture and it's a better way of making a pricing decision
Than just either finger in the air
Or let's just copy whatever they're also doing
Simply somewhere in the midst of time work this out perfectly
And since then we've all been copying each other
So somebody wants upon the time they got it right
No, they didn't
30 years ago and somebody invented this process
What I've really did
We're all full of somebody did that
And since then everybody's just been copying this
It's really interesting
The next thing that I want to get on to is some of maybe the strategic things
Like talk about making prices stick here
Can you say what you mean by that
And how you can increase the chances of people saying this without discounting
And thus very much comes into the psychology behind
How we make a pricing decision
And by that I mean the client
How does the client decide?
Yeah, that's a fair price to pay
I'm happy to pay that price or whatever
So there are a number of things that we can do
One is presenting more than one price
If we only present one price to somebody
Then the only option that they've got is to compare that with
Anything they bought in the past
Or alternatives that they can buy from other people
Or other things that they could spend the money on
Or if you present three options
Then subconsciously
It feels more like they're in control
They've got some choice
Now they can choose between these three
And they think less about
The other options out there
And I do not want anybody to think
That's okay, that's your product
And we're going to find a way to take some cost out
And take some cost out
We'll create three options that way
It's by adding value and adding value
So you've got a good
Can you find a better and a best?
That's one way of doing it
Another way is something called a pricing anchor
And the pricing anchor is just where
Planting a number in somebody's head
That means that any numbers after that feel more reasonable
And the simplest way of doing that
Is if you've got three prices
Start with the highest price first
And if you want to see this in action
Watch the celebrity strictly
Not strictly a bake off
And the celebrity one
It's a charity thing
So it's stand up for cancer
And they'll do a bake
And they all walk out into the garden
And they're going to break for the ads
And they come back from the ads
The judges are going to have a look at the bakes
And something might get the handshake
But immediately before the ads
There's a little piece to camera
Where they talk about somebody and their family
And having cancer and the importance of giving
And then was the donation page
And the donation page reads
To donate
40 pounds, 30 pounds, 20 pounds, 10
Text, 40, 30, 20, 10
And it's in that order
Because when you hear 41
That becomes the reference
Against which everything else then gets compared
Or 40 is quite a lot
Oh, 30 is not too bad
Oh yeah, couple of 30
If you started 20, 30, 40
10, 20, 30, 40
Then people anchor on the 10
Oh yeah, I could afford a bit more than that
I'll do 20
So the first number of the people in Canada
Becomes that reference point
That's internal reference
Against which everything else then gets compared
And a third tip would be
To make your numbers slightly precise
So there are a lot of people who
I don't know
Let's say you provide a service
A law firm
Let's say you're a law firm
You've had a look at this
Somebody wants to have a look at their
Their terms of conditions
Yeah, they're getting into a new lease for something
And you're going to go through all of this
And you know how long it's going to take roughly
Because you've done it many times before
So what your hourly rate is
And the lower hourly rates
10 to be
454, 75, 500
Yeah, they tend to go in 25 pound multiples
So you think, well, I charge 500 pounds there
And now I think this is about 10 hours worth of work
Okay, there's 5,000 pounds
But 5,000 pounds
That really does sound like
You've just done the finger in the ear thing
It sounds
You're inviting people
To get into a negotiation with you
If instead your hourly rate was
513
And it wasn't 10 hours
You actually look at it well
It's going to be close to 10, but I actually
I think it's going to be more like 10 and a half
Or 11 or whatever
You multiply more precise numbers together
And you quote the precise number
Then it feels like there's some signs behind it
And in the example I've just quoted
The genuine lease a bit more signs behind it
But it feels like there's more signs behind it
And the customer is less likely to negotiate
Yeah
That's one aspect where there's a negotiation element
But even when it's just a price on a page
And you either pay it or you don't
There are a few psychological things going on there
The 99 Pents thing
That's called Charm Pricing
So if you knock a penny off
And it changes the first digit
So you go 10 pounds, you knock a penny off
And it becomes 9.99
Or better still 20 pounds, you knock a penny off
And it becomes 99
The first digit you change it from a 2 to a 1
It feels like it's less expensive
Because mentally we put it in the 20's book
It's on the 10's book
There's only a penny difference
But it feels like there's a bigger difference
That's one factor
But the whole precision thing
If it's not 20 pounds, if it's 21 pounds 32
Again, it feels like there's a reason
But be
Again, there's a chunk of psychological research around this
Precise numbers just feels smaller to our brains than round numbers do
So it's entirely possible that if you did exercise
It would different people to try and get them to estimate
Or describe the size of 21 pound 32
Versus other people describing the size of 20
It's highly likely that the people describing the 21 pound 32
Will describe it as a smaller number than the 20
Because to our brains precise numbers just feel smaller
And there's three tips there that should be able to help anybody with their pricing
Through options start with the highest price first
And try and make your prices precise
Really simple stuff
Yeah, excellent
That's brilliant
Thank you for sharing those
Those are really, really cool
Now, I wanted to turn to speaking edit more now
Now you are a speaker
And I wondered in your own speaking journey
How did you decide on your fee
And what was the biggest mistake that you made early on?
One thing I'm not
Is I'm not a walking encyclopedia of prices
The number of people that come up to me is like
I've got this problem
I'm launching this new service
What price are the charger?
I have the clout
I've got a whole lot of ways in which we can figure out whether I price should be
But I'm not walking around with every possible price in the universe stuck in my head
As a consequence, the same challenges that other people have when I first started
Plus when you're yet to be well established
When you don't have the testimonials, you don't have a speaker show where the people can look at
It's evident that you don't have the same pedigree that other people might have
It's difficult to charge quite as much
You can't just decide right
I'm going to be a professional speaker
And then tomorrow I'm charging £10,000 for a keynote
It doesn't work like that
So I did some work
I tried to find out what was going on in the marketplace
I looked at the value that I was delivering
And based on that came up with some early prices
Which I backed off a little bit on because of confidence
Humans as anybody else
And because I was yet to be established
But what I've been doing consistently is
Testing higher prices, pushing higher prices, trying different things
And the fees that I'm charging now are very, very different to where I started
So my advice would be to anybody setting out as a speaker
Or anybody in the similar circumstances where you're providing a service of some kind
OK, be tentative at the beginning
Unless, unless you are signing up people for life
Because you won't even agree the price is very hard to come back and change it
But assuming that it's per gig old, per activity, whatever it is
You might start off a little bit tentative, but keep testing
Do not stop testing higher prices, keep trying a higher price all the time
And eventually you should reach a point where you are losing opportunities
And it's clear that you are losing them because of price
There was a client that was in one of my audiences
This is one of the CEO groups
And the chair just asked a whole question
He asked everybody, when was the last time you increased your prices and how much buy
And there are a couple of people that did this every year in the followed inflation
There were a couple of people handed in for three or four years
They looked a little bit sheepish about it
They got to one person, they were a firm of architects
And the guy said, well, I think it on average is probably about every nine months
And what do you mean, roughly on average, in why nine months?
So we measure our win loss ratio
And if we start to win to more opportunities, then the limit that we've set our prices go up
So we aim to lose a third of the opportunities that come in to the business
Now, the 70% that we win, that keeps it completely busy
And if we start, if it starts to go too much, if the work is coming in
Now, what we don't want to do is go and recruit another person and then recruit another person
And suddenly there's a downturn and then what we do is we just put our prices up
And bring the demand back down to an acceptable level
That's brilliant, absolutely fantastic
So they're monitoring that key metric and continuously pushing their prices
God, that's really interesting
That's really clever actually, it's good
And I think that's probably people don't pay enough attention to those numbers to be able to do that
I just, quick anecdote, I know there was some of the, suddenly she's not with us now
But the Sunday in the speaking industry, this is 10 years ago, I think
To tell me, the cheid tripled her prices over nice
The number of inquiries didn't go down but they didn't go down to a third
Or the number of actual engagements
They didn't go down to a third of what they previously been
So she ended up working less hard and at the same time making more money
But what most organise, if you go back to what we're saying earlier about discounting in order to win value
Do you really want to work harder to make less or less?
Who would do less work and make more?
I think it's a pretty easy decision
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely
Now I'm going to put you on the spot here
Okay
And it'd be interesting to get your take on it
Now you and I were in the same meeting last week
When this came up, where a speaker had been booked by a company
And the company told her that she was half the price
Then all of the other speakers who had been put forward for the gig
And all of the other speakers were men
And so she fed this and they said we wanted to book you not because of your price
But because of the value that you are going to deliver to our audience
And we wanted to let you know
So she fed that back to the booker, the agency booker who was also a woman
And the agency booker said to her
I can't increase your prices in parity because it will price you out of the market
Have you got any tips or a view on that?
It's really, I know it's a thorny question
But I just wanted to get your take on that
There were a few things there that I'd like to know a little bit more
So what was the Bureau saying?
I can't increase your price as a female speaker
Compared to the male speakers
Because if that was the message and that wasn't said on the day
It wasn't
That was the message
This close to international woman's day as well
I would have a really big issue with that
Because it shouldn't matter, it shouldn't matter anything about who or whatever
It's the value that you're delivering to the audience
That's what we should be paid for
Now it's a simple as theirs
I would end up shopping around for a different Bureau I think to work with
Certainly I'd go back to the company
And try and find a bit more information on the other people who had quoted
And what else they've been quoted in the past
Because it would be this in the first time they've held a conference or whatever it was
Because it may be that the speaker Bureau's perception of what the market price was is incorrect
Or it might even be that this particular company, they're in a specific market sector
Where they do expect to pay more
And the speaker Bureau person, they're right about the market in general
But they're wrong about this particular industry
And she needs to update her data for the future
So there's no single answer
There's no light to understand more before
I would certainly, I would be tempted to go back to that the speaker booker and say
I understand, okay, you don't want to double more prices
But let's pick another thousand on right now
Let's see how that goes
Exactly, I did, as I said, I put you on the spot
But I think there's some really interesting questions that you've raised in terms of context around this
But yes, good, okay
Another speaking question, one that's come up with my clients
And I have a view on this, but I wanted to check in with you as you are the expert
In terms of online versus in-person gigs
There has been a tendency for speakers to discount online gigs versus in-person
Have you got a view on whether that is right or wrong?
I don't think there's an absolute answer to that or right or wrong
I know what I think about it, which is
You're paying me for the value that's going to be delivered
So if I'm running a session
If I'm running a keynote and I'm delivering it 45 minutes online versus 45 minutes on the stage
I'm going to charge the same because you get in the same value either way
If it's in-person, I'm foregoing some of my time
Because there's travel time involved
But you're going to pay me for the travel in the hotel
So in-person actually costs me more to deliver
I ought to be charging more and I guess that's the control or for virtual you charge less
Because you don't have that travel time you can fit more in
But that's starting to say that what we're really charging for is our time
One of the things that I point out is there are three fundamental things that we tend to sell
One is our inputs
So if lawyers are charged, you know, if you're 200 pounds an hour and something's two hours, then it's 400 quid
If it's three hours, it's 600 quid
You know, all you're charging for is your time
And in a way, by saying that it will be less for virtual because it doesn't have all the travelling
And that kind of stuff
We're basically saying it's not the value that we're going to deliver, it's the time involved
So companies, they are the charge for their inputs, which is typically time
Or it's their materials, cost plus charge, pricing is just charging for inputs
Or you charge for your outputs
And basically say that what I deliver is the same as anybody else
It's almost fungible, there's a market price
And it doesn't matter who you go to within the market, market price
You're going to get the same value you pay the same price
I'm much more focused on the whole value conversation that we've already had
What are the outcomes that you're going to get?
How are things going to be different and better for you as a consequence of the work that we do together
Generally, what value am I going to deliver?
And that's what I think we should be paid for
And if I'm being paid for the value, then I don't care whether it's online, via say-ons
However, we could do it using a Ouija board, I don't care
It's the same price
If you could do that, are you being in a fortune?
Excellent, thanks David
I'm going to be the first speaker who comes back from the dead
And they're free, it's completely unchecked
I love that, I love that
Okay, so penultimate question before we get into the standard ones
Let's say a speaker does want to raise their fees
And maybe we've covered this and repositioned their brand
What would you advise them to do to make that work?
I don't want to destroy anybody's business
One is out there, for example, and they're charging a thousand pounds for a genuine conference keynote
In the UK, that would be the very, very, very cheap end of it
That would be communicating
I don't think I'm very good, maybe take a chance on me
I'm not going to say to the person like that
You need to be five thousand pounds, that's the average
We'll apply by five over night
Because the danger then is
Particularly if you're starting out
You came for any work to come in, you know, you don't lose it all
I would say continually push your prices
So each time a new opportunity comes in, stick another ten percent on
Because ten percent compounds quite quickly
So if over the next year or so
Or eighteen months, there are ten opportunities
And every time you increase by ten percent, ten percent, ten percent
I've got the calculator with me
But you've gone from a thousand to multiples of thousands
Quite quickly
So do it in a testable methodology
Where you're not betting the whole of your business
No, I'm five thousand pounds now
I'm sitting here waiting for the work to come in
That was not raining
I don't want to do that to anybody
And it's exactly what I've done
I didn't spend a year or two at a lower price
I think, right, okay, I've nailed it now
I've now got a book, I've now got a show reel
I know I can deliver it, okay, right
I'm going to go from this price to that price tomorrow
No, I went up to there and then up to there
I have had some, a few years ago, I did a 40 percent price increase over nice
Because I think this is working
It's taking a long time
Honestly, yeah, looking at where I am now
I don't think I'm increasing my prices fast enough
Right, catch up, 40 percent
And everything, there was a little bit of a dip
And then it all came back
So the busiest I was
Two or three years ago
But charging 40 percent more
Yeah, interesting
Although using your own logic
Perhaps it should have been 41.24
Just, just...
That has occurred to me as well
And the reason I didn't do that is because all of my prices were already precise
And if the 40 percent had meant that any price ended up in a five or a zero
After I had applied the increase
I'd have just added another pound on
So it is out of 30 percent or is 40 percent plus one pound
I love it
So to wrap things up before we go into the standard questions
If our listeners only took away one pricing principle from this conversation
What do you think it should be and why?
There's a fundamental one, as I said earlier
It's not the customer's job to work out what value they're going to get from you
It's your job to clearly communicate that value
And to give them a little bit more flesh around this
When I'm working with a client, the way that I approach that is this
There's a guy called Peter Drucker wrote a paper called Marketing Myopia
And in it, you know, he said nobody wants to buy a quarter inch drill bit
What they want is a quarter inch hole in the wall
But nobody really wants a quarter inch hole
He was making the distinction between features and benefits
But nobody wants a quarter inch hole in the wall
What they want is a quarter inch fixing
Nobody really wants that what they want is a picture hook or a shelf
But nobody really wants that what they want is to make the room beautiful
Or to improve the space utilization in the room
So a methodology to try and figure out what value you are genuinely delivering
Is to try and think through what are the criteria that somebody is going to choose
My product, my service, my work, whatever it is
What are the criteria that are in the head that they're going to use to decide between me
And an alternative solution
So if it's a speaker for a conference, you know, it might be your reputation in the marketplace
The responsiveness, how quickly you get back to them
The social media presence so that you can promote the event
Yeah, there might be a list of criteria
But that's just a how, that's just the features
So for each one of those, keep asking me
Or why do they care about that?
Or why do they care about that?
Keep asking that until you reach something that you think
Ah, that's the real fundamental value
What I generally find with clients when I do this is
There might be ten criteria that we list
When we do that drill down, it always ends up with maybe two, maybe three
Fundamental pieces of value
So they become the co-messive
Why do you want to book me?
Why am I worth £5,000?
Because I'm going to, I'm going to get you repeat bookings next year
I'm going to get you the highest
I know customer satisfaction scores that this conference has ever had
Maybe play the two things, how am I going to do that?
And then it's those first criteria things
It's by delivering those things except for me well
But we start with those fundamental value bits
So that's the methodology
If people struggle more
I don't really, I find it hard to put into words exactly what the value is
That's one way of approaching it
But absolutely fundamentally communicate your value
Smashing, thank you so much
You've shared such valuable advice today
And guidance for people on this issue of pricing
Which I know can really get people stuck
And procrastinating and stop them from moving forward
So it's a real benefit to have you on the show
So that's brilliant
Now before we point people to where they can book you to speak
Book you to consult with their organisation or work with you
I want to ask you a few questions
First question is this, what's the best thing that speaking has done for you?
I think the community
I've never yet met a speaker who has chronic stage fright
And somehow gritting their teeth and going through it anyway
All of us, there's an element of
We enjoy being in front of people
All of us, I think we enjoy the
Making a difference to people's lives
Everything that we do, it's impacting somebody somewhere somehow
When we stand on this stage, we change lives
So all of those things are part of why we do what we do
And that's part of why I enjoy being a speaker
But I think some of the best thing that the people have met
The professional speaking in the association, particularly, is a fabulous community
Really, really nice people
I relish the times when we have an opportunity to get together
And talk to each other and over a few points
A few more
It's fabulous
I should say, not just in the UK worldwide
I went and spoke in South Africa
Three years ago in April
And one of the ladies that have met over there, Joe Anita
I still had a WhatsApp with her just last week
We're continuously in touch
There's a guy called Martin
That company knows his surname properly
Laksh, Les, Golnick
Austrian
But Martin, really, really nice guy
It's fun to him this morning
So the people have met in the state
The just as a group
Genuinely, really, really nice people
That's a joy to spend time with
And build these relationships for these communities
Brilliant, thank you for sharing that
And I think that is something that you can feel quite lonely as a speaker sometimes
So finding a community of like-minded speakers can be really beneficial to you
From a well-being perspective
But also from a business perspective
Because you get to share ideas and tactics
And all that good stuff
But not a progress, even a tenth
As far as I've come without the PSA
All the generosity of advice and suggestions
And chances to try things out and get feedback
Talking to watching other people do things
The whole- it's a fabulous community
Brilliant, thank you for sharing that
And next question is around a time when you have spoken
And it didn't go quite to plan
And you're like, I don't want to think about that
Has that happened to you, David?
Just ten days ago
So, I said I create bespoke examples
When I'm talking to the CEO groups
And I cover sick pricing concept
One of them is volume
So the value bit I pick
One, maybe two of the companies
Where they've got a website
Which might be very pretty
You know, it might function very well
But it talks a lot about way
And when we were established
And it does all the things I was talking about earlier
So I'll pick that
I'll show, you know, look
I'll even then paste all of the content into a slide
And highlight the number of times
We talk about we and us an hour
Versus how many times we talk about you
And then I'll create a new web page
With a little bit of help from Trackly PT
You know, I'll create a new web page
Based on their existing website
That just focuses on the value communication
And I must have done this
A few hundred times
And every single time
The person from that company
They've got their cameras
And they're taking photos of the new content
So I'm talking to my web developer
First thing in the murdering
Until ten days ago
The guy took real umbrage
And he felt like he'd been ambushed
I created a really
I got terrible scores
And this is a Vistley session
Vistley scores matter
Because of the chairs
Book you based on those scores
I've written an email to apologize to him
Because
I don't know that it's not meant to be a number
It's meant to be
I've just picked one out of there
I could have picked almost anybody
I picked one out
But here's how he could be done better
But you didn't think so
So yeah
It's fresh in my mind
Because the scores are still forming
Will that make you change
How you approach that going forward
That experience?
I have
Because the
It's not so much that
I used him
If that's how I used him without talking to him first
So two hours ago
I've got another gig tomorrow morning
I figured out who it is that I'm going to be using two hours ago
I spoke to the two companies
Whose website's I'm going to
Do the same thing with
And they were
Oh yeah, great
Fantastic, fabulous
And that's the reaction I've had
99 times previously
But I want to avoid that
That hundredth time
I don't want that to happen again
Oh yeah, yeah
You're doing this for 16 years
I've a hundred of these
And still
Yeah, yeah
It's really interesting, though
But we're always
As speakers, we're all with learning
And evolving
Creating our content
And approach
To make things better
That we can make the difference to the audience
But yeah, it's just
But back on you
Specifically, because you came to my reach
And you did a session in the afternoon on storytelling
And the
This particular session that didn't work well
It wasn't ten days ago
It must be three weeks ago, three, four weeks ago
Actually, in there
So this is
How to price your plate
It passes my main thing
And I've done it three, four hundred times
I've got a new version
How to value your platypus
Which is focused on
How do you choose the price in the first place
And how do you communicate value
It's really focused on that bit
And I found a couple of
Vista troops who were prepared to be test subjects
So didn't charge, just went along
And returned for me
Coming and doing it
They gave me feedback
I improved on the back of that
And then I was comfortable
I had something and it worked
Did it with a few more people
Road it out
And I've done four or five
CEO groups
This one three, four weeks ago
It was the first Vista group
And it bombed
Probably because of the reasons I've just explained
But it bombed
But it got me
It got me thinking about just
Why?
Why was it not clicking?
And I came along to your storytelling session
And you were talking about the structure of the story
And you know how you put things together
It wasn't a direct thing that you said
But what you said
Just generated something in my head
It was like a light bulb going off an epiphany
And I went back
I spent a day restructuring
And rebuilding the content
It's all the same content
But now told in a more story-like manner
My scores with the one that bombed
Were two or three out of five
I did it again for the
A different group for the same chairman
Ten days after the
That first session
The scores were four point eight two
And you know to five
And things like that
So big thank you to you
But we are continuously learning
Yeah
Like I say, 60 years of experience
And you said something
And it really triggered something in my head
Like I say in the epiphany
Oh, good
I'm glad I made a difference to you
And I spent that time
Which is exactly what you were talking about
Thank you for the feedback
I appreciate that, David
Cool, right
Last few questions
What's the book that has had most impact on your life and why?
From a fiction point of view
Probably Lord of the Rings
And it's partly what got me into science fiction fantasy
And there was a
Period in my teens
When it was my Christmas book
Every single year
Outcame Lord of the Rings
I read the thing covered to cover again
So from a fiction point of view
Probably that one
And that's probably the fiction book
I've read more than any other
From a non-fiction book
Thinking fast and slow, Daniel Kahneman
Which is just a fabulous insight
Into how
Inside our head
It feels like we are completely logical
Reasonable, you know, insensible
And every decision that we take is
Fundamentally grounded in logic
And in reality
We're just this complex mess of these hidden shortcuts
That we rationalize after the event
And really, really interesting insight into humans
And that's not just from the pricing point of view
Fundamentally marketing is about trying to influence other humans to do things
And the better we understand how we take
The more effective a marketer you can be
In fact, people, anybody listening to this
The absolute best podcast in the world is Sarah Arches
Clearly
The second best podcast in the world is something called Nudge
Phil Agnew
And what did it do?
It's half an hour once a week
And he talks about the psychology behind some marketing thing
You know, I mean, he talks about the paper, the research and how it's applied
And there's a fabulous back catalogue
If you have anything to do with marketing sales influencing anything whatsoever
That podcast should be on your list
Brilliant, well, I'll give that a listen as well
So I'll put a link in the show notes to the books
And that podcast for people to go and check it out
Smashing, all right, penultimate question
What's the best bit of business advice you've had and why?
I think
This relates back to the being a high blue as well
There was a recall
When I had the senior role in an organisation called Premier Final
I was running one of the brands
It could be called CPC
And I reported into the Europe, Asia and Pacific,
a pack, whatever, who was CEO
So basically there's a CEO in America
And there's a CEO, the rest of the world
And we had a meeting about something
And there were three or four of us, we got together
And before he let us start
He made us really focus on exactly what's the question that we're trying to answer
And that's the number of times we go into something
We just dive straight in
Oh, solution
I think I've heard what it is, right, okay
This is what we should be doing
And he made us take a step back and get absolute clarity on it
What genuinely is the issue or what is the question that we're trying to answer
And only then did we start to work on it
And that is so powerful
I mentioned Vistage
I was actually a member of the equivalent of Vistage, something called ACE
The Academy for Chief Executives for 10 years
Vistage brought it, it's now rolled into Vistage
And the issue session that I talked about in the afternoon
The number of times somebody would bring an issue along
And then we go around the table asking questions
And then once everybody's uncovered all the background
Then they could give advice
The number of times the advice from somebody was
That's not the issue
The issue is really this
Because they'd listen to everything
And they'd heard and seen something
And you're looking at this the wrong way
That's not the problem you're trying to solve
It's really this
And that is such an important thing
Really be clear about what it is that you're trying to work on solve
And so whatever it might be
Yeah, there is definitely a correlation between the quality of the questions
And the quality of the solution
Okay, last question
If you could have one mentor David
And I can be alive or dead
Fictional or non-fictional
Who would you choose and why?
It's a bit of a weird one
And he is still alive, but it might be Billy Connolly
Cool
And it's because I'm glad that's at least one Billy Connolly in the world
I remember decades ago
He was doing the world tour things
He started off the world tour of Glasgow
He did the world tour of Scotland I think it was
This one was the world tour of Australia
And he was telling that one story where he decided finally
He was going to get his nipple pierced
And he went into where it was and they did the job
And after they got into the job
He looked to Billy Connolly said
Now there's one less of them and there's one more of us
And I'm glad there's one more of him
Or there's at least one of him in the world
Because every time I've ever watched him
He has a joyful life
And a sideways way of looking at everything
And I don't want to be him
But having something like that as a mentor
Who can show you the different way
The off route way
Just thinking about things
And finding the joy in it all
Because every single thing that he did
He'd just see it together
Biggest, you know, those out of
I think that that would be great to have something like that
Helping and guiding you
I think that's brilliant
I don't think we've ever had Billy Connolly as an answer
But I can absolutely see why you would be suggesting him
He's definitely one of a kind
And it's a shame there's not more like him
Like you said
Excellent
Well, David, thank you so much again for sharing
All of the experience
And you know, the years that you've put into this
To get to this point
And to share that knowledge with us
And give us some really tactical, practical tips
And tools to increase our prices
And not fall into some of those traps
That tend to sabotage people
Really, really appreciate it
And good pleasure
Good, and if people want to come find you
Where's the best place for them to go?
My website's the easiest thing
And it's www.Davidabethspeaker.com
No hyphons, Davidabethspeaker, two bees, two teas
Brilliant, and I can absolutely recommend David as a speaker
Now, I'm probably the worst person to watch speakers
Because I'm, you know, you kind of dissect things
But you absolutely, you know, captivated me
And it was really, really useful
Really good stuff
So highly recommend
Good, well thanks so much David
You look after yourself and thanks for coming on the show
Oh, it's been the total pleasure
I loved it
There was a lot in there, a ton of value
And David always brings the goods
I've seen him speak, as I said, in the show
And yeah, he delivers every time
So I'm absolutely chuffed that we're able to tap into his brilliance on the speaking club
Now, there's a few things that really stood out for me
First of all, this idea that pricing isn't a numbers problem
It's a value communication problem
And this is something that I see all the time
In terms of speakers positioning their message
And packaging their message in a way that really clearly
And quickly articulates the value that they're going to bring to whoever is booking them
Because if people don't understand the value
The price is always going to feel too high
Second, the reminder that confidence in your pricing doesn't come from picking the right number
It comes from being clear about who you deliver for and what you deliver
And finally, this is a big one for speakers
Discounting isn't a strategy
It might feel like a quick win
But over time, it chips away at your positioning and your business
And I also love those psychological tips
And packages and number endings that are also going to be really useful
To tap into that psychology of buying that people have
So if you have been sitting on your pricing or second guessing it or undercharging
Maybe this is your nudge to revisit it
And if you enjoyed the episode then go and check out David's website, his work
He's also got a book, the Platypus pricing process
And I'll pop all the links to those things in the show notes for you
And if you know another speaker or business owner who needs to hear this
Send it their way
Also you've got a value going say hi to David on LinkedIn
I'm sure he will appreciate that too
So until next time
Firstly I want to say thanks so much for watching or listening to the show
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So all that's left for me to say is thank you again for watching and listening
It's been amazing to be with you again
And don't forget until next time
To go out, grab your life by the nuts and get cracking
Bye bye
It's a nightmare
You're an expert with so much to say
But now that you've been booked to speak
You're struggling to know exactly what to talk about
You want a talk that engages the audience and wins you new clients
Without you losing your personality or anyone feeling pitched too
But what happens when you sit down to create that talk
Is that you end up staring at a blank page for ages or worse
Surrounded by hundreds of sticky notes with content that you could include
With so much material you just don't know where to start
Or finish
Don't worry because many experts like you face exactly the same challenge
And that's why I created the blank page to stage guide
In just 15 minutes this breakthrough resource is going to help you identify the big idea of your message
Make it relatable for the audience that you're speaking to
And convey it all in a way that gets the audience inspired and on board with your idea
And it works even if you have tons of material or your subject feels less than exciting
If you want to cut through swathes of content
And get a talk that you're excited to share
Your audience loves and wins you new clients
Then grab your blank page to stage guide from Sarah Archett of code.uk
Slash new guide hyphen tsc
Oh I forgot to say it's completely free
Enjoy!
Thanks for watching!

The Speaking Club: Mastering the Art of Public Speaking

The Speaking Club: Mastering the Art of Public Speaking

The Speaking Club: Mastering the Art of Public Speaking