The intersection of faith and finance – John Coleman

0:00In epic four-part audio podcast series, the Christ, Father, forgive them. It's the greatest story ever told. He is the light, the true light. Here in an all-new way. The tool is empty. The Christ, wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Bill Arnold. Thank you for listening to this podcast. There are many more podcasts available at myfaithradio.com. Your support makes this possible. Thank you. Okay, it's time to begin. Let's start a countdown. 2019. 18. 17. I just start the song. Oh, don't you know it's the Bill Arnold show. It's Bill. You know, all of us as believers, we're always looking for guidance on how to be honoring to God with our finances and resources.

1:17And yet there's so much going on in the world right now. There's this, you know, inflationary concerns we've got. AI crashing in. There's all kinds of concern about our employment and all of that. So we're going to talk to John Coleman. He's an investor. He's an author. He's a speaker. And he loves that intersection of faith, purpose, and finance. His book is called Good Money. Six steps to building a financial life with purpose. John, thanks for coming on the show today. Yeah, Bill, such a pleasure to be with you all today. Did your parents tell you to save your money? They did teach me to save my money, although sometimes the lessons didn't go much beyond that. But I was fortunate, at least to get the basics. And I've been learning ever since, which was one of the reasons for writing the book to keep on learning about it. And did you learn at a very young age about the value of giving and the value of being generous? Yeah, I did and Bill, like many of your listeners probably, the earliest lessons I got from that were through the church.

2:19So I grew up going to Protestant church. I was really raised to think that my faith was important and taught from a very young age about the benefit of tithing, particularly in church. You know, it was limited as it often is for believers that was my earliest lessons were really about tithing to the church. But over time, that really spread to serving others to volunteering and to thinking about generosity more broadly. But I would say it's only been a recent year since I started working in the space for an investing space and meeting families who are extraordinarily generous. That my own mind has been open to the breadth of generosity that's possible financial and otherwise. And so it's been a long journey for me over the course of my life. Great answer. You know, we all have such a unique relationship with money. And I don't know why that is, but your book is entitled Good Money. So let my first question be what is good money? Yeah, I think one of the fundamental premises is that money can be go to a bad. And I think any Christian believer has an intuitive sense of that.

3:22You know, the Bible mentions money 2,350 times or so. And not all of those references are bad. God bless some people with extraordinarily financial wealth that they used to help others, whether that be Abraham or David or even some figures in the New Testament. But many of those verses are cautionary tales, you know, famously the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And so the question for me is if money is just a tool. It can be a blessing that God bestows on someone to help steward and help benefit others is the parable the talents might show or other references that Jesus makes. But it can also be uniquely tempting in a way that very few things are. So the question in my mind is how do we start to view money not as a goal, but as a means to an end. And then how do we define that end with human flourishing in such a way that money supports positive outcomes for people purpose, meaning community relationships serving others, rather than something that can lead us astray.

4:23I think good money is one that enables the good life and learning to incorporate that into all of the areas of our financial lives, spending, giving, earning, investing, saving is one way we can shape money so that it can benefit the ultimate aims that we have as believers or nonbelievers alike to live a good life and create human flourishing in ourselves and others. John, I like that you said that money is a means not an end. So let's try to use that mindset. How should we as Christians approach earning money and spending money. Yeah, earning is the very heart of what we do, right? So I talk about those four levers, earning, spending, giving and investing is the four ways we touch money and earning is one of the only ways it comes in investing. It kind of goes out and end and some of the most discouraging statistics. I see today are about the number of people in our society who are earning just for a paycheck and who aren't earning with purpose, right. We spend a polarity of our time at work, often 30, 40, 50, 60 hours a week. And yet if you look at surveys on the amount of engagement, people get at work only around 15% of people globally are engaged at work.

5:35And in no country in the world, do people rate their work as a significant source of meaning and purpose in their life in the United States. In fact, only around 17% of people say that their work is a meaningful source of purpose in their life. And so one of the mindset shifts I encourage people to take is that there is no success without significance that even if you manage to be financially successful at work, if that work isn't edifying for you, if it's not helpful to others, if it's not something that's driving purpose and meaning in your life, the financial benefits of it are very incomplete. And that's one of the things that leads us to feel so disengaged, disconnected from work. And I talked through some of the ways in which you can address that crafting your work, treating it as a craft serving others, building relationships at work, etc. The spending side similarly is uniquely tempting. And this is where the Bible often cautions directly or indirectly quite a lot. And I think we get such mixed messages in society today. If you watch TikTok or Instagram, there are people with fancy cars or watches, waving around piles of cash, equating their identity with the stuff that they buy.

6:45And yet the best research out there right now from Elizabeth Dunn and others shows that spending money on stuff is actually not that good for happiness. There were famous studies about earning where Angus Deaton and Daniel Kahneman showed that above a certain threshold in life, about $105,000 today in income, there's not a meaningful gain in happiness to income. And indeed, when you talk about spending, the acquisition of stuff is as likely to make us dissatisfied as satisfied. And so one of the things I talk about in the book is, well, what are the categories of spending that actually do make us satisfied? And it's things like experiences, experiences that you do with others, for example, do give you lasting happiness and fulfillment. It's things like health where you're improving your mental, spiritual or physical health, which is a key component of human flourishing or things like relationships themselves where you're investing in building community with others, which we as Christians know is very central to both the Christian life and individual fulfillment.

7:48And so in both categories, I think we've been led astray by popular culture and by society, but there are ways in which we can see to approach earning and spending that better align the income and the use of money with what it takes for us to be happy and fulfilled. No, well said, John, I remember that old chestnut that goes something like people spend money they don't have to buy things they don't need to impress people they don't like. That's right, that's right. And it's something that not only makes us unhappy, but it's behind all the consumer debt that we see in society right now. People just practically get themselves in dire financial straits doing exactly what you describe spending money they don't have on things they don't need to impress people they don't like love that formulation. And it's it's shocking today the trillions of dollars in credit card debt, trillions of dollars in auto debt, student loans, other things where we buried ourselves under a mountain of financial obligations that actually restrict the ways in which we can use our finances moving forward.

8:53And we often do that on things that don't yield any real benefit for us, which is, which is something that people can address that they change their mindsets around spending and money. My guess is John Coleman and his book is called Good Money, Six Steps to Building a Financial Life with Purpose. And John I'm curious for you to give us some of your perspective on how important gratitude is and in our financial mindset if we're going to have a financial financial mindset that's going to be biblical talk about how important gratitude is. Yeah absolutely and I think one of the beautiful things that I found so this book is for Harvard Business Review it's written for mainstream audiences but I'm consistently pleased with the amount of alignment between modern social science research and what we've learned through the Christian religious tradition and as a believer of course we should always be enthusiastic about new research because we think that our faith has something of truth in it and that all of that research will lead to truth.

9:58And indeed as you go chapter by chapter in this book you'll find that the modern research all supports a very Christian conception of how to use money gratitude is right at the center of it if you look at social science research today. People who live gratefully often experience extraordinary benefits to their own mental and physical health they live longer they have lower incidence of disease they have less psychological problems they tend to experience greater purpose and meaning this focus on what we have and being content with it is actually one of the key mindsets that we can embrace such that we're not constantly obsessed with more more which is a very dangerous path. But instead focus on what we've been gifted and how we can use that for the benefit of others and that gratitude both within religious tradition as we know as well as in the social science research is very clear you know God constantly tells us when we're praying. For example to lead with gratitude to thank God for the gifts that we've been given even in difficult circumstances we can see that in the Lord's Prayer for example we're grateful for our daily bread for the things that God's provides and that's really an anchoring spiritually and psychologically in this idea that we have been gifted all that we have and we don't need to be discontent and constantly wanting more and once we encounter that mindset it eliminates the scarcity that sometimes drives us towards greed.

11:24Or towards constant acquisition which are very fruitless paths. John what are some bad money mindsets and I hope I don't have any. We all have a few unfortunately all right you know and there are bad money mindsets and then I would say there are just some incomplete money mindsets where people are not behaving maliciously but they've never really thought through something. I'd start with identity you know one bad money mindset that very few people would admit that many of us embrace implicitly is that my my worth is based on my net worth right that money actually defines who I am that if I have more money that will make me a better person. And of course if we reflect on that even saying that out loud many people with shy away from that and yet the way that we live is is that way you know money is a clear scoreboard it's a scorecard so many things in life are difficult to measure but your net worth isn't. And many people begin to conflate their net worth with their worth and indeed some of the more malicious parts of the internet or other areas of society say that very explicitly you know I saw an influencer one of these male influencers online talking very explicitly about how.

12:34He was a better man because he was richer you know because he had all these things and yet if we look at the stories of the people we admire most from mother to reset a bill of Graham there was nothing about their identity that we appreciated that had anything to do with money was about the the centeredness that they had in their own spiritual life the work that they were doing for others and so I think. I think reversing that identity and disassociating worth and net worth is an important flip of a bad money mindset one of those incomplete bad money mindsets that I touch on is that we keep our finances away from our kids right often we shield kids from financial decisions we we don't apprentice them in the proper management and money and then they end up leaving the household without a real conception of how to earn well give well spend well invest well they can't practically manage a budget. But even more so their values aren't fully formed and so one of the things I advocate is that we take up financial apprenticeship of our children very early and this is one of the things my wife and I learned in the course of writing this book.

13:36You know we were starting this but there were practices around things like giving as a family introducing our kids to charity to what we're doing philanthropically and encouraging them to do their own making that a family decision. It's been really edifying to building in a culture of generosity in the kids the same with investing where we just shielded kids from what we were doing in our portfolio. But at the right ages we're starting now to include them in that to give them small pulls of money that they're investing themselves so they can begin to learn those lessons earlier and I think it's a bad money mindset to shield kids from money and a better money mindset to start introducing them as early as four or five to basic concepts about it. And then really trying to apprentice them more thoroughly as they age and grow into independence so those are just two that I would highlight although there are many more in the book and many more we could discuss. You are a smart likable guy we're going to take a break John Coleman is my guest his book is called Good Money six steps to building a financial life with purpose we'll be right back.

14:45We carry each other's burdens please know you can bring us your prayer concerns and we will pray share your prayer requests with the faith radio team by texting your calling eight seven seven nine three three two four eight four or share your prayer requests with the faith radio staff and listeners at my faith radio dot com. I'm back with john Coleman his book is called Good Money six steps to building a financial life with purpose. All right john in the last segment we were talking about identity identity which is an important thing in everyone's life and I pray that everyone's identity is in Christ and in Christ alone although we do get caught up from time to time trying to measure ourselves by the kinds of vacations we go on or the houses we live in or the cars we drive you said that and I don't disagree. So in a culture that's driven by a lot of materialism coaches as to how believers can resist this pressure to define ourselves by what's what we own what's in the driveway.

15:56Yeah one of the simplest but most difficult implement practices because it is it feels so challenging for people sometimes is this idea of setting a financial finish line. So as I mentioned before we are wired to want more there's a psychological concept embedded within human beings called hedonic adaptation which is mean means once we get something good we quickly become dissatisfied with it and want more you and I may have encountered this right we get. A new car and we love it for a little while but then we start to look around and see a better car that we we dream about that we'd love to get the same with a house or even something simple like piece of furniture or a gadget that's hedonic adaptation people adapt to their circumstances very quickly they become that normal becomes the new normal instead of something good and then they want more. And this shows up in the way that people think about money there was a great here is poll not too long ago where they asked people at all income levels how much income annually would be enough for you to fill happy and fulfilled and the answer at every single level was just a little bit more if you ask someone with $40,000 a year in income that might say 50 or $60,000 if you ask someone with $250,000 a year in income they'd say $350,000.

17:18And so the idea that will ever be satisfied is an illusion right that never stops one way to counteract that is to decide upfront what amount of money is necessary for you to live a comfortable lifestyle for a lifestyle that suits your needs and instead of constantly chasing a new lifestyle as you become wealthier to set that limit and then use any income or network beyond that to engage in charitable causes to give to others to build a business other things that don't increase our lifestyle and short circuit this desire that we have to constantly want more. I have a business partner, for example, who said a financial finish line very early in his career, which is often the best time to do it before you've had a chance to get addicted to more and more acquisition or to see lifestyles that are further and further out of reach. And he ended up building this very successful business that within four or five years he had reached a network target he had for his financial finish line the savings he would need to live one in income every year that we keep them comfortable.

18:20And he followed through with that and he built a multi billion dollar business enterprise but ended up giving away 99.9% of that either reinvesting it in the business to grow it to create flourishing those companies or standing up a foundation which is where all the profits of that business go and we're ultimately the ownership of that business is and that's a radical example that most people would shy away from. But if we set a financial finish line if we determine in advance how much is enough we we free ourselves from constantly asking hey what would a little more look like what would a bigger house look like what would more houses look like which is the trap so many people fall into as they get wealthier and so I think that's one of the better simple practical steps that most people could take to sit down with the financial advisor figure out what lifestyle you need to support and what that means in annual income. And once you've hit that once you've achieved it think about what good you can do with those finances beyond your own personal consumption and that's not the way most people think but it's certainly a way of short circling our that are continuously a positive mindsets and reorienting towards generosity and towards gratitude which you mentioned earlier.

19:31You know I have to smile when I think of a guy like Warren Buffett who has pretty much bottomless resources and he's been living in the same four bedroom rambler and Omaha for the last 40 years. That's right yeah and he's you know and he does it because he loves what he does he's obviously been quite charitable Warren Buffett's not a believer but in some ways he's reflecting a Christian mindset better than many Christians right and that he has not focused on his personal consumption or lifestyle but simply on how do I use my talents for their greatest impact around the world and then how do I give the excess to others in a way that can help society flourish and that's a really inspiring example. Because you talk about in your book you talk about simplicity and satisfaction now I don't know how simple and satisfied a guy like Warren Buffett is but I know he drives through McDonald's in the morning to get his little load cheese sandwich which is cheese and egg sandwich which I find kind of entertaining but how do we as believers pursue content because I think contentment is a really big word and I try to use it often people say how are you and I try to say I'm pretty pretty content

20:42because I think that's a it's a disturbing answer to people what do you mean and it just gives you an opportunity to have more conversation because we'll speak oh sorry no go ahead. Well speaking to what you touched on earlier speaking to an explicitly Christian audience you know the first is setting your identity in Christ and I think you nailed it by saying that if you're anchored in the fact that you're a center redeemed by grace that there's a god of the universe who cares not just about humanity but about you individually and that every person here including you is possessive inherent dignity and worth so much so that that god would come down to earth and sacrifice himself to build a relationship with you. That centering of identity is where contentment starts in my mind that I think it's much more difficult honestly if you don't have access to that truth but once you're anchored in that all of the other things we do to seek identity or contentment become very secondary. Now some of those are important you know one of the things I find as a parent or as a husband is a lot of my happiness is really predicated on are my kids thriving is my wife thriving am I being a good husband and dad and I think that's that's a good outlet that can be abused that can be misused that can take priority over God which would be bad but in general people aspiring to be a better husband friend father mother brother or sister son or daughter that's a really positive way.

22:10And which we seek to get better not out of discontentment but out of love right which is an orientation that's different than discontentment where we fall into traps is when we think our contentment will come from things that we possess the Bible teaches us that life is but a vapor right that we won't take anything with us. Ecclesiastes for example among other places is very good at articulating that wealth is ultimately fruitless that it doesn't lead to happiness it's just a tool there's nothing inherently worthy about it right the only thing worthy about is what we do with it to have a positive impact on others and for Christians that means in accordance with our faith with sharing the gospel with loving other people extraordinarily well. And I think we anchor on that central identity then we become much more content with our circumstances knowing that God has a plan for us that we can use our talents for his purposes and we don't chase discontentment or identity and things that are unlikely to build it whether that's.

23:12Adoration or power or the acquisition of financial wealth or the acquisition of showy things we learn that those are ultimately fruitless and that really and a relationship of love to God and others is the source of all content and life and money is just a way in which we can try and emphasize those things loving God and loving others well. John Coleman is my guest his book is called good money when you're talking earlier about just feeling purposeful with what you're doing in your work let's talk a little bit about how work is a calling I always think that you can bring bring dignity to any job and sometimes I see people who might be begging groceries who do it well with a great attitude and I'm thinking man sometimes I just I admire I admire how well you do your job. And how much you seem to care. So you really can bring dignity to any job and give God the glory and treat each job you have as an active worship to him.

24:15Absolutely you hit the nail in the head I actually wrote a prior book with H.V.R. called the H.V.R. God to crafting your purpose which was mostly about building purpose at work and bill you touched on the central thesis which is any job has inherent dignity and worth. I mean any job that has good purposes that obviously if you were a drug trafficker or something that that would not be a good outlet for your talents. But the vast majority of things whether it's a bus driver a cashier or a teacher an investment banker can be oriented towards good purposes and I spend a lot of that book and I touch on it in this book laying out simple ways in which we can take whatever job we have today and try and make it more meaningful. I believe you craft purpose into the work that you have rather than just seeking out work that's inherently meaningful you may find that but really it's our job to endow everything that we do with purpose and that's a liberating concept because it doesn't mean it means we don't have to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It means we don't have to be paralyzed by wondering if there's something better that we could be doing and instead we can just focus on doing what we do incredibly well and crafting meaning into that.

25:24I highlight four simple practices and good money that people can take to work the first of those is what I call crafting your work which is based on the management philosophy of something called job crafting and that's where you take the job you have and make it the job you want. One of the most famous studies on this was from a Yale researcher who followed hospital janitors basically and she sought to understand what made those who are happy happy and what made those were disengaged disengaged and she found that those who are happiest for those who viewed themselves as part of a care team for the patients in the hospitals not merely is executing the task of janitors they moved around pictures on the walls of long term patients hoping that that could bring beauty to their state. So they shift the paintings around the experiment of a different cleaning fluids to see which would be least irritating to those were in long term care. They really became a part of a medical team investing in the flourishing of those individuals going well beyond their job description and that helped to make their their work more meaningful and I think almost all of us could look for ways to craft our work to make it more meaningful to make it invest in others.

26:35The second is what I call making work a craft kind of a play on words between the two and that's this old concept of just whatever you do doing with excellence run the races if to win it as you just mentioned and whether you're a carpenter or a consultant or an auditor you have the ability to get deep meaning of purpose from pushing yourself to be as good at what you do as anybody can be to maximize your talents. And we get an inherent sense of purpose and meaning from self improvement and from really executing a job well and yet many people are caught just punching a clock not pursuing that excellence not knowing that that that give them a great sense of fulfillment. The other two practices that I focus on one is service to others. I believe in any job there are at least five or six different categories of people that we can be serving it's clients or customers it's colleagues how can we invest in and serve the people that we work with it's our community more broadly how can we as individual citizens as part of a corporation serve the communities in which we're embedded it's it's the partners with whom we work vendors suppliers etc.

27:47We as Christians have an opportunity to show the gospels show the light of God to each of those people every day and we as professionals have an opportunity to serve them in ways that make their lives better like that cashier that you mentioned who says have a nice day and you ask you about your day and lifts your spirits in that moment that's a way of serving others in your work. And then the final is to build positive relationships so if you look at the social science research the number one way in which most people achieve happiness and fulfillment is life is the depth and breadth of their positive relationships and yet often we get sucked into either not having relationships at work or having negative relationships. And I think all of us who work around people every day through serving others have an opportunity to invest in relationships with those people and to cultivate positive meaningful relationships in the workplace and I think if you do those four things that's a start to helping make almost any job that you're in more meaningful and purposeful and edifying for you.

28:49Well said john Coleman workers take a little break and why it will purposefully and meaningfully take us to a short break and we'll be right back with john Coleman he's the author of good money six steps to building a financial life with purpose will be right back. All right john here's my next question for you because I know tithing is a big deal many Christians tied but let's talk about giving wisely what does that mean. Yeah so I think the first step for people is just being generous you know I talk about giving wisely which is a framework or a couple of frameworks for how we can give better how we can make sure our generosity actually has its intended impact on the world around us. And it's something that's very edifying for us but the first step is simply to give because people get hung up on that you know the United States by GDP is the most generous nation in the world and yet only 2% of our GDP every year goes towards philanthropy in many countries that's less than 1% as many as 4 and 10 Americans today give nothing at all during the course of the year.

30:10And yet if you look at the research let's say you were just self interested instead of commanded by God to be generous all of the research points to one of the 2 or 3 most important ways in which we can be happy and fulfilled in life being generosity for others and that starts at a very elemental level in us there was a great study for example where they looked at toddlers as young as 2 and they gave these kids a treat and they they've been asked them if they'd like to give it to a puppet who is in the room with them or if they'd like to consume it. And they found that those toddlers were happier giving their treat to a puppet than they were consuming it themselves we are hardwired to love generosity and yet many of us haven't unlocked that. I think once you decided to be generous you should pre commit to giving and this is one of what I call the 4 piece of wiser generosity that I could just touch on. Pre commitment is a powerful psychological concept we're instead of trying to make decisions on the fly we decide ahead of time that we want to do something which takes all of the difficulty of decision away right that means that instead of wondering should I give this year should I give it the end of the year we already say I think 10% of my income off the top should go immediately to charity I think 20% should 25% should in our household.

31:34In our household for example we do that through donor wise funds so every month when my income comes in a percentage of that is taken and put into my DAF before I can touch it with anything else and if there's unexpected income bonuses etc we obviously carve out a percentage of that as well and so we know off the top we can't spend that money right so it takes all the decision making out of that. And I think that's a powerful tool which is by tithing I think was one of the concepts in the Bible just get get people accustomed to giving their first fruits to God and sharing those with others. The 4 piece that I highlight in the book the one associated with pre commitment is what I call percentage giving so the first step in my mind is to say I'm not going to just ad hoc give to charities in the grocery line that that may have a point to it. I want to say I'm going to dedicate the first fruits of what I make to generosity towards others and that's going to restrict how I spend an invest I'm going to build around that and pre committing to be a percentage giver is a big part of that.

32:35The second is to find something you have a passion about again giving to something in the grocery line or when a friend calls you about a charity event may have its purpose but if you want to be unusually generous if you want to be the type of person like many I know who are getting not 10%. But 20% or 50% or 90% of their income you really want to find things about which you specifically are passionate about whether that's evangelism whether that's homelessness combating human trafficking each of us is wired for something different. And that's great because there are tons of worthy causes in the world that require each of us to be passionate. The third in my mind is to participate in that cause so I tell people all the time don't just be financially generous generosity that stops with a with a paycheck is is incomplete generosity Jesus calls us to serve not just to give but to be hands on. So if your cause is homelessness that you give to go serve in the homeless shelter serving the soup kitchen serve on the board of homeless community if you love building housing for people go serve on a habitat for humanity site after you've given to habitat for humanity and that participation connects our financial generosity with personal generosity.

33:46And then the fourth piece of advice I have is to partner with others and this was a great learning for me I had often done my giving quietly and in fact the Bible tells us to give quietly. And yet sometimes I think sharing at least with a small group of people about generosity helps us to build generosity in relationship it holds us accountable to being generous and that may start as small as the family level as I mentioned before on a segment we've started the practice of drawing our kids into charity. Some of them are too young to know exactly how much we give we don't want them getting distracted by the numbers but we talk them through what we give to and we give them a portion of capital at the end of every year around Christmas from us to give to others and then they're allowed to take some of their own personal money that they made through chores and others. And give it to something in the will 10X that amount for them so if they give a hundred dollars will make that a thousand dollars to the charity their course of their that they're focused on. And I think that that partnership as a family embeds generosity more deeply in each of us and holds us accountable to one another now my kids are asking what are we getting to who we're trying to help what has been the outcome of that and his parents that holds us incredibly accountable to keep it up to make sure that we're still engaged with those cherries.

35:04That may be your friend group it may be a financial advisor it may be a group that you're doing philanthropy with but doing it in partnership can be incredibly impactful. You and your wife must love seeing that in your children. It's awesome and you know the funny thing about it bill is kids any parent of kids knows what I'm about to say is not negative kids are simultaneously the most selfish and the most unselfish human beings in the world. You give my kids a bag of candy and they suddenly become very selfish sometimes with their siblings. But when you introduce this idea of generosity like we were talking about we pre selected five cherries for them to get to at the end of the year because we didn't want to leave it to open ended but we talked them through what those could be and just ask them what are you passionate about what resonates with you the most. One of those was a medical charity my daughter has a complex medical condition that we give to and my oldest son for his little sister said I'm going to give I want to give everything in my ledger which is we have a ledger system for keeping track of their finances he said I just want to give it all to this charity to help people like my little sister.

36:16And we actually had to tell him we weren't going to let him do that maybe that was bad parenting we said john white we love that we love the spirit that you're bringing to that we're going to we're going to let you keep some of your money and we're just going to amplify through our own giving what you would have done otherwise. But it was this remarkable moment for both he and his sister where you could see the fact that he loved her so much was driving this generosity and he had no regard for his personal resources. And to think you know as adults it's almost inconceivable that we would see something someone in need and say we're giving everything to that person he did it without a blink right and it was just this wonderful reminder that sometimes kids they haven't learned that they need to be afraid of financial insecurity they haven't learned that there's tons of stuff they need to buy. And in that you know they they can underestimate their responsibilities but there's a there's a remarkable open-heartedness about that that we as adults sometimes forget and all he cared about was seeing the improvement of others for the resources that he'd accumulated and that honestly I mean when my my wife and I were proud of him.

37:22We love saying that between you and his sister but it was also something that inspired us and said man are we really doing enough I mean if he's willing to give everything is the percentage we're giving enough and we saw that echoed through all the kids that different charities homelessness was one of the charities that we chose one daughter chose to give everything to the church because it was so supportive of kids like her and she just wanted people to know the gospel. They each picked different things but their heart mindset was the same in every single kid all four of them gave far more than we had asked them to give they gave multiple so much so that actually three of the four kids we had to cap their giving because we didn't want them to give away everything that they had and it was just a passion for generosity that some of us lost. Beautiful. Let's talk about generosity and how I know it brings joy to people and it does reflect God's character so it's a two-part question John so that's a given let's talk about that but then also let's talk about the people listening right now who their money so tight they can't be generous as a matter of fact they hope someone is generous to them.

38:31Yeah 100% and one thing I'll practice here is I've written good money primarily for those who have what they need right there are different guidelines that are helpful to people living paycheck to paycheck there are different tools to deal with poverty and I remind readers in my book no matter if there are problems that come with wealth and temptations that come with wealth it's always harder to be poor than to be rich when I was born my dad was a rodeo cowboy actually my mom cut here we lived in a single-wide trailer in full Florida and you know our focus at that time was primarily on getting by surviving my dad thought of others but the two others he was thinking about the most for my mom and myself right just making sure that we had enough to eat and to the people in those situations I'd say generosity is still important there's a great story about the widow in her might in the New Testament where Jesus sees a widow putting in the smallest of might was the smallest unit of currency at that time that you could get basically like a penny or two.

39:31But it was so she was in such financial distress that he said that gift of a penny or two was more impactful than the large gifts of the wealthy around him because it was everything that she could muster and so one thing I'd encourage even those living paycheck to paycheck if you can't give money if you can serve if you can just take a moment to serve others if you can give a little even a dollar to if that's all you can spare but unlock that part of generosity in your in your heart. Because it's what Jesus commands and he views that act of generosity greater than anything I'm doing greater than anything someone wealthier than me is doing because it is coming from a place of emptiness that's still looking to fill up others. And I would say beyond that those of us with resources those reading this book. So the people that actually have desperate needs single moms widows and orphans people who have been suffered terrible abuse those who are growing up in poverty and need better education.

40:33That is precisely why generosity is so important so that we can create an environment where others can flourish as well as ourselves. He talked to great researcher at Harvard called Tyler Vanderwheel he leads the Harvard program on human flourishing a interview him in the bulk he's a Christian as well. And he talks about the idea that human flourishing can't happen if it's only individual flourishing that true flourishing only happens in community and only when communities are flourishing and so if you live in a neighborhood or a town or city or a country where you're doing well that the people around you are suffering. You are truly living to the best of your God given ability and you're not experiencing the true freedom that God would have for us. And so I think that commandment for generosity is universal even those for whom you know life is constrained I remember as a kid living in that trailer park goes very young. But my parents invested some of the other kids and teenagers in the park given food when they needed food helped them and that was one of the starkest examples of generosity I can remember because it was them giving things they barely had right and yet God looks on that kind of gift.

41:43Even more lovingly I think it looks on it from somebody who has access resources. All right John we're going to take a break money might have been tight for you growing up but you did get free haircuts so that's got to be worth something. That's right. Yeah name of his book is good money six steps to building a financial life with purpose John Coleman is my guest will be right back. It is my deepest desire that you take the very first step of faith by placing your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. If you've got questions about what it means to begin a relationship with Jesus text the word faith to 4 1 2 2 4. My guest is John Coleman his book is good money has been great conversation John you saying your book and you urge us to save for freedom not retirement what does that mean.

42:45Ah this is the one the publisher thinks is going to be most controversial bill I fundamentally disagree with the modern conception of retirement I think there's no biblical justification for it and there's little scientific support for the idea of retirement at least the way we define it. Leaving a job and engaging in life of pure leisure you know this ideal of going and sitting on the beach all day or playing golf I think that's fundamentally bad for people and different than what God calls us to do. And so what I say instead is what people want is not a life of pure leisure that's dissatisfying in multiple fronts what they want is the freedom the agency the autonomy in order to work in a way that they feel is most impactful. You know we talked about people living hand them out previously and if you're having a clean hotel rooms or do other things that are very difficult you may want to do something else and that might be entirely justified. But I think this idea of retiring is is misplaced is what I encourage people to do is actually set financial goals where they have the financial flexibility to pursue the use of their talents in the most impactful way.

43:56You know the science right now that I've listed the book mortality goes up when you retire so if you retire even one year later your chance of mortality goes down something like 20 to 30% incidence of stroke. Art attack go down social isolation goes down if you delay retirement or if you don't fully retire. Even if you're just leaving a job to engage in volunteer work consistently we're taking a lower paying job that has more impact. Even if you're raining in hours that can help you not only be healthier not only be mentally and physically more stable but it can help you use your talents in a way that's edifying and purposeful. And so I'm really on a quest to get people thinking very differently about retirement to view their financial savings not as the point at which they can just leave work and do nothing forever engage in leisure you know whatever that number is. But to set a number that will allow them the freedom and agency to pursue whatever that best use of their talents is for others that might look like reduced hours I don't think any of us wants to work as hard at 80 as we do it at 25.

45:03At some point physical health may cause us to leave the workplace and I'm not judging that at all. But I think we should always be thinking not about how can we spend more time on ourselves that how can we use the talents God has given us most effectively to be most purposeful and fulfilled and also to invest in others. John let's talk about how Christians how can Christians think about the future and not fall into feeling full of fear or I've got to kind of live in a survival mode or self protection. Yeah absolutely I mean the first of that is theological right which is right Jesus notes that God made us and if he takes care of the sparrow in the fields he obviously is going to take care of and care about us. And we always have hope that even if this current temporal life is difficult that as long as we're faithful as long as we encounter truth that God has reached out and made it possible for us to live a perfect eternal life with him.

46:05And so I think the first thing which is so simple to say and so difficult to do is that Christians should should always endeavor not to be anxious to not be overcome by warrior fear because ultimately we serve a God using control who's already conquered sin and death. And he has a plan for us right and that plan may include difficulties it may include suffering here on earth there are great there are many biblical stories about that but ultimately we don't have to be anxious because we know where our hope lies right now in the practical realities of day to day that's difficult as a dad I worry about my wife I worry about my kids I want to give them a better future and I think that's an appropriate thing to do right I think Christians should be prudent financial stewards. And some of those uses are quote unquote selfish in the sense that Christian should be worried about hey I'm going to save enough I'm going to be financially prudent enough to have a house for my kids can grow up to make sure they have a good education to feed them you know to take care of the needs of our family and give them a better life than we had I think we all aspire to that where I think it gets dangerous is when Christians think too much about temporal legacy rather than eternal legacy.

47:17And I think this is true even of people more broadly you know some of the research I encountered in the book that was most it wasn't that surprising but it was it was so interesting to see in the actual statistics is sometimes when kids for example encounter too much wealth that's unearned or too sudden it can be very destructive to them so the children wealthy people for example are more subject to substance abuse. There are more subject to feelings of purpose purposelessness and meaninglessness they find social relationships more difficult. And so often you see even Christians hoarding money hoping to give giant trust to their kids to overwhelm them with wealth which is their way of thinking throughout I give a better life to my kids not understanding that that can actually be destructive. And so I really advocate that Christians and all people center themselves not on a conception of their net worth but in a conception of the good life in the book on in a chapter on money and kids we talk about setting a mission vision and values for your family.

48:18It's anchored in what you believe to be true and making that what you talk to your kids about more than specific financial targets. And then apprenticing your kids for example in both the prudent use of money so how to earn save invest to be responsible stewards of what you have but to connect that to the values that you have. And indeed I think a lot of the healthiest families that I've encountered are those that have limited dramatically what they give to their kids. I know one family owns a multi billion dollar company and they have given all of that company into a charitable trust. And the kids are allowed to work in the company and make a salary that's market rate but they know they'll never inherit a vast amount of money. The only thing that they get to soared is the business and the giving that this family does on an annual basis they all do it together and they give away a huge sum of wealth. But those kids are so well adjusted because they know they have to they have to work for what they have and their family is not letting them go destitute. But beyond their basic means they're really oriented towards improving the lives of others and it creates a much healthier spiritual and psychological mindset for them.

49:26So interesting John thank you so much for doing the show has been a delight meeting you I've learned a lot today. Thank you so much Bill such a privilege to be on today. John Coleman has been my guest his book is called Good Money six steps to building a financial life with purpose that wraps up our show for the day and for the week. Thank you for supporting Faith Radio see you next week. Thanks for listening programming like this is made available through your support information available at myfaithradio.com

50:37In celebration of Easter in epic four-part audio podcast series the Christ he's not just a boy that he is and what will they do to him when they find out who he really is they will worship him. Featuring the Emmy and Golden Globe Award nominated voices of Tom Palfrey David O yellow. Paul Walter Hauser John Reese Davies and Patricia Heaton my hour has not yet come I son your hour was written before time. It's the greatest story ever told hear it in an all new way the Christ he said open your ears and they were open in epic audio podcast series. The tour is empty featuring an all star cast any power that you have has been given to you from above by he who sent me. He claims to be a king you are the father of lies and you have lost it has already been written. And it is being unwritten by me don't miss an episode listen and follow the Christ wherever you get your podcasts.

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