The JSE has lost 514 companies since 1989 and 14 municipalities face possible power cuts by Eskom

And now, the money show with Stephen Curtis on 7-0-2, let's walk the toll.

The money show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you by Apsa Corporate and Investment Banking

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Apsa is originated if they speak.

Good evening.

Welcome to the program 8 minutes after 6-1 Stephen Curtis.

I've got quite a bit to say about Brent Brazil, the US Ambassador tonight, but I think I should

probably start with oil prices and the latest, they're still hovering around $90 a barrel

tonight.

Lots of water coming from Iran, as you would expect, I suppose, if you were being attacked,

if you were the subject of water from Washington, the Iran basically saying, get ready for oil

at $200 a barrel, it's been firing on merchant ships in the Gulf.

It's effectively, I think, almost becoming kind of de facto blockaded.

People just can't move.

There's a huge amount of oil on ships in that area.

They can't get through the strait of humours.

The US, not yet saying that it will actually be able to provide military escorts, navy escorts,

at the same time, you've got the international energy agency saying they'll release fuel

stocks to try and bring prices down.

And then on top of all of that, you've got the fact that some of our airlines, the first

really, to raise prices, air-link and fly-ceph-air, you can't blame them, I would imagine, otherwise

they're just going to lose money, and we sort of wait with some, I don't know, fear

to see what's going to happen in a couple of weeks from now, what's it, three weeks from

now in petrol prices, I'm sure, we'll go up and there's something very dramatic happens.

The other story, just developing now, breaking in the last few moments, the international

relations minister Ronald Lamorler, they're saying that they've issued Brent Brazil, the

US ambassador with the Dimash, he only received his credentials, which meant he was only officially

accepted as an ambassador, I think, two weeks ago now.

So that must be, I think in South African diplomatic terms, a record, essentially as I understand

the timeline, this is what happened.

Brent Brazil was speaking at a business conference yesterday, he said the kill of a poor chant

was hate speech, and then, and I think this is the issue, he said he didn't care about

our court rulings, it was hate speech, and I look, he backtracked on that today, on

X, he said he has a personal view that that chant is hate speech, but that he respects

our courts, Ronald Lamorler, the minister, issuing him with the Dimash anyway, I have to

say, to my mind, this was entirely inevitable.

If you look at Rommaportz's comments in the interview he did with New York Times, just

while he was in the US for the funeral of Jesse Jackson, this was over the weekend, and

you look at how angry actually Rommaportz clearly was at how he was treated in the

Oval Office, if you look at it, if you remember how our president was treated in the Oval

Office, well, why not, if you look at how our ambassador was kicked out for commenting

on their internal affairs, why not, would go the argument, but let's say for Rommaportz

Rock, I can't see how you would lose, I mean, I realize it doesn't help our relationship

with the US, I realize there's a lot of play, but if you decide, and if you take the

interview, that actually the US is not a reliable trading partner, that we need to sort of

move away anyway, then why not, they've done it to us, we might as well do something similar

to them, and you could argue, that is proportional, I'll be very keen to hear from you on this,

have we done the right thing in issuing Brent Bezel, the US ambassador with a Dimash,

072702, 072702, are you worried about the economic impact, very happy to hear from

you on that too, on a double 1,003702, 021440567, we'll talk about the JSE, and what might

be the misallocation of capital, sounds like something out of a textbook, I suppose

is because I think it first was, but it's about why so many companies deal, we'll talk

to Mealany Hollenny, the municipal governance expert, I was not surprised, but I should have

been surprised to see that on the list of 14 councils, ESK is taking new steps against

Echoroleni, a metro of that size was among them, voted of it as the chief operating officer

at Rainbow Chicken Hill here from him at 20 to 7, that a really strong half, and then

Eastern Declack, the CEO of Growth Point Properties, very interested to talk to him tonight,

particularly interested in what's happening with their centen properties, good to hear

from you at 12 after, 12 after 6, the money show with Stephen Kruders live on 1927 and 106

FM streaming on the Prime Media Plus app and DSTV channel 856, look for to your views

on Brent Bezel, well an important piece of research being published this week, it gets

to the heart of the best way for companies to get capital to grow and in the end to create

jobs, it's a study that deals with why so many companies have delisted from the JSE, it

also finds, and I didn't know this, that companies have delisted from the JSE nearly twice

the global average, Professor Haroon Borat is the person who led that research, he's

Professor of Economics at the University of Johannesburg, excuse me, the University of Cape

Town, listen to me, Haroon, good evening, forgive me, why are our companies delisting from

the JSE more than companies in other places, is there something I suppose different about

our context?

Yes, thank you very much Stephen, so I think just to put the data in more careful context

a lot of, so we ran comparisons of what we call net new listings as a share of market

caps will be controlled for size of company as well as new listings, so not just a simple

count of delistings, we compare the JSE to global exchanges, collection of all global

exchanges for the period 97, through to 2021, and over that period we find that the mean

value of the listings, net listings if you like, for the global sample is positive and

for the JSE is negative, but very similar to each other in the post 2005 period, that

is a really important result, so most of the divergence where you get higher rates of

delistings if you like, by market cap, is driven by the 97 to 2005 period, so I think that's

a very important distinction, that in the post 2005 period our performance is relatively

similar to a global sample of exchanges, I mean when I hear 2005 I think well three

years later there was the start of the global economic crisis, the reason to things changes

as a result of that, was there another factor?

So we have a collection of factors, and they are related variously to what we call firm

level factors, so firms at the largest seem to have stayed on the exchange, firms that

have in other words higher market cap, firms that were more profitable, firms that had higher

sort of leverage, so they seeking capital market access through the JSE, strong GDP growth

was important, so all of those factors kick in macro factors as well as firm specific

factors that drive the full period analysis, now the distinction between pre and post 2005

is a difficult one, we think it's partly to do with reorganization of the JSE in the sort

of post 94 period when we are a normal functioning small open economy and firms start to reorganize,

and it's also partly the idea that you can seek capital elsewhere outside of the JSE,

and once those sort of let's call it the systemic forces work their way through, by the mid-2000s

you see a relatively similar pattern of delistings on the JSE compared to other exchanges.

If I could just add with one final concluding comment on that, even is that we find also

though that market concentration on the JSE, so concentration levels on the JSE have gone

up, and that's really in the same way that a product market can have fewer and fewer firms

in the market, you find that what we call the index of concentration on the JSE has actually

gone up.

I mean that I would imagine would not actually be healthy for an economy or for an index.

It's not, and even though the trend is upwards for most exchanges around the world, what

it does suggest is access to capital is either being diverted away from listed exchanges

and found elsewhere, which not necessarily a bad thing, so private equity and other

sort of capital markets are not in the listed space are available to firms.

I think that's part of the reason for South Africa, but I think the other reason is that

you've got a low growth rate that is not encouraging small, innovative firms to actually

access these listed exchanges in a way that you perhaps find in say the US market, very

similar in some ways to what's happening in Europe I think.

So the companies that then delisted, I mean it's probably impossible in one sort of report

to work out what happened to them, which was better, but it's interesting that successful

companies are the ones that stayed.

I suppose what I'm trying to get to is, was capital then, when so many companies delist

doesn't suggest that capital was being allocated inefficiently in some way?

In some way, yes, in some ways, the race to index funds, the race to secure returns, if

you like, without sort of a high standard deviation in returns, which are risky investments

for asset holders, means that small cap stocks are overlooked.

You've got a constraint on sales side research, so you've got sales side research that is

not really flourishing for small caps in South Africa, and so what you find is a capital

market that is far more diverted towards secure large cap firms and see them as the root

to investment channels.

Now why that's bad is that in any growth model, from Solos time, the great MIT economist

innovation, growth in the long run, and innovation comes through taking risk, through firms

that you invest in that are risky bets, and some of them by their nature, many of them

will actually fail and others won't, and it's the idea that they have easier access

to capital through listed exchanges for one, but other markets that's critical for growth.

So in simple terms, it's not a good thing that we've got growing concentration levels,

and it's not a good thing that it's only the larger or mainly market, larger market cap

firms and dominant firms that have stayed in the exchange.

The JSE has been going through a process of making it easier to list, making the entire

process a bit more simple at the same time, it obviously needs to make sure that that

trading is sort of responsible.

Is it possible to know if that has any impact over the longer term?

It would seem factors perhaps outside their control are probably more to blame.

So I think the new sort of, you know, there's lower initial listing fees and tax credits

that the JSE is looking at, that definitely, and that's a new regulation, a new change

in listing sort of in the listing domain, I think that's something we can look at,

and the study, in fact, in our engagement in presenting, as we know to the exactly that,

that going forward, one of the things to look at is what is the impact of these new regulation

from the JSE on net new listings?

And just to keep in mind again, yes, you do want to focus on regulation, but as you

allude to, it's far more than that, and a lot of it is beyond, at least based on our

opinions, is beyond the control of the JSE, such as US GDP or South African GDP rates,

business confidence, policy uncertainty, all of those do feed into the propensity to

de-list.

Professor, thank you very much indeed, really do appreciate it, Professor Harun Boratis,

Professor of Economics at the University of Cape Town.

7.02.

7.02.

Steven, as on the money show.

6 to 8 pm.

21 after 6, well, an important report in money web today detailing, I think, for the first

time, the 14 councils that Eskim is considering interrupting services too because they haven't

paid.

One of them is Echoroleni, you know, a massive metro.

Eskim started a process of asking stakeholders to comment, I think what that's probably going

to mean is that councils might find themselves being asked to explain why they haven't paid

Eskim the money.

They owe it.

The Echoroleni is an expert in municipal governance.

Melanie, good evening, thanks for your time.

So these councils haven't paid Eskim.

I suppose some of them probably never really had the resources, but have they not been receiving

help from government before?

I mean, has there been efforts to sort of help them before Eskim got to this point?

Definitely, good evening, Steven and good evening to the listeners.

It's actually a position which a lot of the municipalities may find themselves there

unknowingly or at least unwillingly or not having designed, you know, the current situation.

Yes, there has been help from, especially from national treasury.

There also have been interventions from the provincial government to try and support,

particularly the revenue collection because that's where everything rises and falls within

some of these municipalities.

However, to see a city such as Echoroleni being part of this list, I think they shouldn't

be there.

They have been before one of the strongest municipalities from a revenue generation point

of view and at a very strong balance sheet, you know, much way going slightly back five

years to turn years.

So I think it's something that, you know, a lot of these municipalities, the 14 that

remain there, out of the almost, if I remember the number, almost 40 of these municipalities

are perhaps the ones that, you know, are now in a very dire situation.

I mean, surely Eskim is never going to be allowed to switch off Echoroleni.

I mean, I think we know that.

But what they are doing with this process, I mean, they call it a pager process of

promotion of access to justice act, it'll be very public.

This is going to, I would like to think massively embarrassing for the leadership of these

councils.

Absolutely.

And I think the issue here is that one of the things that some of us, you know, including

myself, would have said, why doesn't National Treasury just pay the Eskim directly and

end this pain that the consumers, so suppose would feel?

Unfortunately, the division of revenue at the bristup on it again does not allow for

such, you know, movements, you know, directly to pay from the fiscal, you know,

whoever is owing the other.

So, unfortunately, there has to be a protracted and there will be a protracted process, including

the pager process.

But the other process that should be followed and I think is almost exhausted, exhausted

is the intergovernmental relations process, which is in place allowed for in the constitution.

So that hasn't quite worked.

The last, you know, of the issues should have been litigation where some of those municipalities

you know, Eskim litigates against those municipalities and this would be as opposed

government fighting against government.

But I think the issue of getting the citizen involved, perhaps, you know, can put pressure

on those municipalities.

But if I look at a municipality like Nala in the free state, I think, you know, there

is absolutely no hope that they'll cover the 1.2 billion, which they owe to Eskim because

of their size and lack of economy and I don't think there's many of those customers that,

you know, would be able to afford to pay such, you know, a debt.

You know, so this has been unfortunate left over a very long period of time where Eskim

was not enforcing, but when the chips were down and they have to now enforce their payment,

which could have been done perhaps, you know, 5, 10 years ago.

I mean, obviously we know smaller councils.

I mean, at some point there's going to have to be a process to deal with that because

it causes all sorts of issues.

Eskim, so Eskim is now trying to get the money that it's owed.

One of the ways it can do that as I understand it is it can take the money from the customers

directly.

So it can control the account that customers pay their money into and I know the local

government association still creates that idea.

If Eskim does that, won't it just end up controlling that money forever?

Councils would never get control of the system back because, well, from what I can see,

I don't see much prospect of them improving.

Absolutely, and I think that's what it is that electricity traditionally has always

been one of the highest revenue earners.

In fact, not the number one revenue earner for municipalities, which has been changing

over the years.

So if you or anyone takes hold of the electricity revenue, that's it.

The municipality has no way of even cross such a dies in some of the lesser sort of revenue

generating line items.

And I think in this case, you know, you take a municipality like Mahfoube, which has

been sitting with a private company, which is collecting revenue on their own behalf

if you want to pay themselves before they can pay the municipality.

It has absolutely crippled the municipality.

So if Eskim goes that route, then it has the potential of creeping the entire municipality.

Unless there is maturity between the institutions to look at how the total debt of that

municipality can then be collected using electricity as a means, even if Eskim gets involved.

I know there's the electricity distribution agency agreement, which Eskim has signed

with about three or four municipalities, which effectively takes over those services,

which in the short term to medium term or perhaps in the long term would be beneficial

but rather in the short to medium term would not benefit necessarily those municipalities.

But long term, hopefully they could support, you know, those municipalities with maintenance

of infrastructure, new builds and all of those things that they would require to strengthen

their electricity service.

Mearlani Cholene, thanks so much.

Really appreciate it.

The experts and municipal governance there, 27 minutes after six.

The money show.

The market.

Chris Stewart's a portfolio manager at 91.

We could probably discuss the whole market for using one word, oil.

Man has had an impact today and yesterday.

Yeah, and the day before and tomorrow and so it goes on.

The oil price is obviously a critical driver of the world economy, whether we like it or

not still.

Oil drives inflation, inflation drives, interest rates and interest rates drive certainly consumer

economic activity and consumer economic activity and indeed corporate activity drives the world

economy.

The sort of volatility we are seeing in the oil price is unhelpful and with the oil price

up as much as it is, all bets off with regard to interest rates, monetary policy is carrying

a high degree of uncertainty and as a result of that we've seen massive amounts of volatility

in markets.

We saw the oil price today reacting to a variety of forces.

Certainly the Iranians saying they will do everything in their power to disrupt and

you've seen headlines of the world at $200 oil, you've seen the international energy agency

authorizing an immediate release of 400 million barrels of oil from the strategic reserves.

That's the biggest authorised release in history as far as I can remember and double the

amount that they authorised at the time that Russia invaded Ukraine a couple of years back.

You know, massive amounts of volatility, lots of factors driving the oil price.

I can't remember a day, someone will phone and correct me but it feels as though there hasn't

been a day where the oil price is not moved at least 5% in one direction or another and that's

making life pretty difficult.

I mean the issue is what do you do and Bloomberg quoting Jeff Curry at Carlisle Energy Pathways

in the US saying no policy response can stop crude oil as a scent.

Even if there's a ceasefire and he says in that because ships are in the wrong place,

you know, insurances cancelled, some of the oil fields have now been shut.

I mean that's a serious comment.

Yeah, I think that's quite right and that's just covering the fundamentals.

If you then look at the sort of risk premium that are going to get built into the oil price even

if things settle down, you know, I think corporate memory or you know people's memories are relatively

long and you know, even assemblots of normalcy returning to the markets don't think we see oil going

back to where a fundamental supply and demand model might dictate there's going to be elements of

risk premium still built into the oil price for quite some time to come.

Very quickly how many gold today they have their update, their gold production was down their

earnings obviously up very strongly.

Yeah, earnings up very strongly but not as strongly as their peers.

They did guide that I think trading guidance on Monday as to where earnings would come,

and earnings came in in fact in the lower half of the range which is unusual.

Quarter four production of calendar 2025.

Remember they've got a junior end so we're talking about their first half was a very poor quarter

for production, lower recovery stopperges, operational issues, sign eyed shortages which made

it difficult for them to extract gold metallurgicly.

So a big miss on production and as a result of that in miss on costs also some negative

one-off items around derivative losses. It's an acquisition cost around the copper asset that

they acquired in Australia in October last year with some fair value movements.

So all of that was pretty negative. I mean all the goals we've done today,

goldfields and angler gold both going extil it in today as well which complicated things a

little bit but you know at minus 11 Harmony significantly the worst performing gold stock

on the day. Chris Stewart thanks so much portfolio manager at 91 just after 630.

What's up Steven? On 072 702.

22 minutes to 7 the time okay so various things going on obviously the

Dimash our government has handed out to the U.S. Ambassador Brent Bezel just eight days after

or after really being sort of officially accredited as the U.S. Ambassador you've heard my piece on

that. Voice notes coming through on that on 072 702 1702 and then also of course the conversation

around isk and switching off municipalities and how it is that municipalities end up in this

position thoughts on that tonight. Evening 702 John Ruder putt isk him issue when these

municipalities take Marmony what do they do with it because if I don't pay my electricity

bull I just get cut off so it comes in the right to do this but where does my money go?

I mean isn't that always the question with us right you pay your bills you pay them to the

council where does the money go from there and for a long time electricity as Milene Chalene explained

was used to kind of fund other things but you can't do that anymore because the price of

power has just got so high the whole mechanism is kind of falling apart and I don't know

I mean I think people very clever people somewhere are thinking about how to fix it but for the

moment you just get a sense that this system is not working. The money show with Stephen Hredes

on 702 702 16 minutes to 7 the time we've been talking about oil we've been talking about diplomacy

we've been talking about electricity probably time to talk a little bit more about chicken now

and rainbow chickens announcing an extraordinary jump in headline earnings actually rainbow chicken

earnings up over 110 percent for the six months to the end of December there's been stronger

demand for chicken feed prices or maize prices really I suppose we're lower because of the

Lenina rain over the period. Voter de vett is the chief operating officer at rainbow chicken

voter good evening a good to chat to you I mean obviously very impressive figures for you

what went right your input costs were lower and demand was strong and they both came together

yeah good evening Stephen and thank you for the opportunity yeah probably have to take you back five

years that's more least when we started with turnaround choices this rainbow and obviously we focus

largely on and what's under control and you know the key focus is the engine room it's

looking at those chicken production and you know we changed the breed in the process the previous

breed of chicken to the using the way it's performing so over the five years you know the

sometimes without all of that has been significant improvement and we've basically started the

strategies we've had some heavy material areas you know exactly a couple of years ago really bad

year and to purchase and we've seen exceptionally high in this class of law and we've seen a lot

of these commodities and yes you know in the current period some of those have converted to

developing. Voter I'm sorry to interrupt you it sounds like you might be on a speaker phone

and and we're actually not hearing you as clearly as we would like if you are able to move to a

handset we would be very grateful thank you yeah that's how are you they with us now sounds it

sounds like you are you your call has been placed on hold well what's unexpected okay well let's

see if we're able to just get him back I suspect if we call him back we might find that actually

he is ready for us on the handset it's not the first interview to be interrupted in this way

does happen and let's see if we're able to just continue the conversation with Voter Devet

the Chief Operating Officer at Rainbow Chicken about what seems to be quite good results Voter

welcome back not at all we're getting you loud and clear now you were able to also increase the

sales of your chicken feed business and I mean that seems to be growing quite quickly I don't know

what it's like to help your competitors but I mean could that business maybe one day even

stand on its own yeah it's an integral part of our business even so yeah we don't you don't

don't so we handle it as a separate business and you know I think that's a key part of our strategy

you know we we've we've basically stuck up the business in terms of the different regions of

thought to be old you know almost want to call it standalone businesses you know looking after

themselves in terms of profit so just coming back to the feed business I think what we've done

successfully is to focus over the last couple of years in terms of recovering back to a better

margin as an acceptable margin and with that margin in place now we are in a position where we can

focus on good service competitive feed you know what you the performance of the feed is so important

you know so our customers definitely reap the benefits of our technical input into that you

know the consistent supply and you know the good margins or healthy margins in that feed business

now combined with the growth is definitely unlocking good value for us yes you also got a key

impact sorry it's also got a key impact of our chicken business you know because you need good

consistent supply of top quality feed obviously no sure um you've doubled your production

facility at Hammersdale and you also say that chicken production has increased quite strongly

in South Africa I mean is there a risk that you could be out growing your market it's a key question

because you know if any at the end of the day despite our best efforts to add value where we can it

is still a commodity business chicken and if we are not responsible in the way we grow of course

you know if there's an oversupply we will feel the pinch on the price side so I think what we've

seen in recent years is responsible growth in the market and I think our strategy at least is to

at least grow in line with the demand from our consumers and our quick service restaurant

customers etc yeah so our outlook on growth is a responsible one in line with the consumer growth

I mean the problem is is that global trade patterns are changing so quickly I mean the US

would be a nice market for example and yes it goes extended but I don't know if that can be really

relied on I mean do you worry that maybe there wouldn't be many places for you to export to

now exports currently is a very very small percentage of of our production and South Africa's

production I think they's definitely significant upside you know recent study by BFAP combined

with the University of Orhanen in the Netherlands they look at all the big producing countries in

the world and historically you know we were definitely being the top thing and we've gradually

moved up in the most recent one in the last couple of months that's been released we've now

passed the America and we only second to Brazil in terms of cost effectiveness of our production

so theoretically we should be able to get into the markets but it's not that important our government

needs to work with us address all the veterinary requirements from the different countries that say

but the potential is definitely therefore to you know to unlock growth opportunities in the form of

exports that's quite an exception a teapot by our industry and avian influenza a bird flu a

major risk for you we as you know from recent experience I mean devastating voter and you say

government's program to stop at the vaccination program I suppose it's just too expensive what

change do you think you need I think the Fritten-Marth is a classic example here how in terms of

the regulations that in itself as well you know for for the capital industry I also had a very heavy

demand in terms of what's required you know in terms of monitoring after you vaccinated etc etc

and what we've seen is in a very short space of time most of those have been listed and I think

we've seen a much more practical approach in terms of making that happen and obviously with

significant financial support you know to pay for the vaccines so we will need something similar you

know if you don't vaccine on a large scale it is ineffective and I think we've seen some of our

competitors are starting to do that but I mean one example of the difficulty with vaccination is

you typically want to vaccinate your grandparents or your parents locks because by the most valuable

you know if you lose them the multiply effectively as you know becomes negative to your business

but when you vaccinate any of those chickens you know any of the offspring of the prodigy you

can't export you know so that would be obviously unacceptable fast and yeah so I think we

there's something near a holistic approach from government as I said very much like the Fritten-Marth

and I think they really could be a lot easier voter de veth thank you so much so interesting chief

operating officer drainboat chicken we speak to the CEO growth point is seem to clack in a

moment about property nine minutes to seven the money show Stephen Curtis is brought to you by

apps our corporate and investment backing proud sponsors of GTR Africa 2026 enabling trade

flows for growth abs is the rigid that ever be well growth point property saying it's all

more tourist at the V&A waterfront in Cape Town some evidence also that the office market in

hunting and in the western Cape are beginning to recover its distributable income up by 2.1

percent in the six months to the end of December eastern the clack is the SACO at growth point

properties eastern good evening a good to chat again the V&A waterfront strong growth there

a lot more people in Cape Town over the period was that what drove it absolutely look at is a

component the reality is the main drivers for this performance actually comes from our South African

board photo is a great big pointed out our office board photos perform much better but actually

across the board we had like for like growth of six percent and then the saving and finance cost

because in this period we've obviously experienced less interest cost in that interest rates have come

down and we have also settled some debt bringing down a total debt on bad and sheets in South Africa

and those were the two biggest drivers the V&A effectively was on the comparable period was

actually flat and one of the main reasons for that is our development pipeline there that has

taken the table pay offline for for the period in the porting that that hotel has now come back

as an intercontinental and and it will start has started trading so it will impact sort of the

the back end of the year and then also we had sales in residential units that have been very

successful there and those sales only transferred now in this month so the second off of the year

it's going to be a bit a little bit lopsided from earnings perspective but overall

generally we're comfortable with the trajectory the growth trajectory that we're in at the moment

the situation in Houghtang and for a long time the story has sort of been high office vacancies

how much progress are you making there slowly but surely you know office vacancies

and GDP growth have a very close correlation unfortunately and interestingly enough if we look

at our coastal regions call it Cozulin until the little slunger edge we're full there we our vacancies

in the whole of Cape Town I think we've got 4,400 square meters available over the 360,000

square meters there and then if we come back to our 10 years where we've been struggling but

even here you know we've been able to systematically we're bringing down the overall vacancies

I mean full growth point per vacancies peak to 22% and we're down below 14% at 13.7% at the

moment so systematically it's coming down and and we we're putting in quite a lot of effort to

ensure that you know that that trend continues but it does help if you have a good economic growth

sure I mean we heard from I don't know if they're arrival they're in a slightly different

business from attack yesterday they were talking about the vacancy rated waterfall in mid-rand

and their vacancy rate is is much lower than that is there a big difference between what might

be happening in say Santa and where some of your offices are and what's happening in in mid-rand in

waterfall yeah look I think the first thing is all just the scale of the two businesses are

quite significantly different I mean we've got 1.6 million square meters of office space and

and it is spread through most of the metropolitan areas in South Africa and yes we have quite a

bit of exposure in the South King region to to Santa and Rosebank and up to Poptown area and we

have been struggling in some of those areas to to bring vacancies done but you know it's more

scale factor than it is really relative position what what has been affected in waterfall is obviously

they are developing very much demand based and and as a result your vacancies are relatively low

and they put folio clearly being reasonably new some of those businesses are in place for for

some time so they they have done a wonderful job it's great node and you know from our perspective

we we have been also working on a precinct strategy and increasingly selling assets that are

outside of precincts where we can have a bigger influence on the surroundings on the services

I mean we built the whole energy business in growth point today which is providing green power

to our clients and and you know that effectively a system with their ESG credential so they are

there's definitely some of that precinct thinking going into the way we are investing and

and that is starting to deliver some fruits and ultimately you know if we do get economic growth

that that will be the big swing factor in terms of relative performance sure I mean you you talk

about some of the properties you're selling I understand the precinct strategy you're investing in

the Western Cape are you slowly sort of moving out of hunting where you can I wouldn't say that's

the case I mean you know ultimately we are we are clients also our objective is to provide space

to thrive and the reality is is that hunting's economy is significantly bigger than any of the

regions in terms of the demand for of a space etc in saying that you know we have focused quite a

lot of effort on the Western Cape and if you sort of overlay our holding in the V&A over our say

23 24 billion and portfolio of assets in the in the Western Cape I mean you do get really close

to half our asset pace from a South African perspective being in the Western Cape and and it has

served as well because that market has performed better I think a big factor in this discussion is in

fact the performances of the metros relatively and if you've got a functioning metro that invests

an infrastructure and invests in in their local economy then you start seeing the benefits of that

and unfortunately both Janisburg and Twine into a logic stand you know we haven't quite seen

the same extent and in fact there's sort of drawn the real estate industry into having to provide

those services to a logic stand but still at the same time paying rates and taxes which are still

escalating and double digit rate. This seemed to crack thanks so much really appreciate it the SSEO

growth point properties we heard similar from other property companies recently and from just

other firms generally councils at the risk that they pose two companies and it does seem to be

very much a kind of growing problem we spoke of course about councils not paying ischem earlier

you're with the money show good evening it's seven o'clock and now the money show with Steven

credits on seven oh two let's walk the toll the money show with Steven Curtis is brought to you by

absent corporates and investment banking proud sponsors of GTR Africa 2026 enabling trade flows

for growth absence registered FSP well plenty to come your voice notes too coming through about

some of them about Brent Brazil the US ambassador who already has a Dimash I suppose you know

our person was clicked up for saying things about their politics he gets

wrapped over the knuckles for saying anything about the things about ours I suppose you could

argue that everyone was sort of slightly more insulting I don't know you probably could

yeah plenty to come we'll talk to you a moio in a moment you know that feeling you get when

you realize technology is changing so quickly and you kind of think I still needed here I mean I

thought that was just a parental problem you know that moment do they still need me but now I think

more and more it's becoming about companies and about our roles and what are people going to use

and someone's just going to take my voice without my permission and that'll be the end of me I mean

really quite scary when you know that your consumer ninja by the way she has an update on that

Cape Town story about that heritage home that was damaged in a storm and there was an adjudication

and there was an appeal and the appeal went the person's way but then the bank wouldn't for the

insurance company excuse me wouldn't pay it all got quite real so I'm looking forward to that

update actually and then also from 730 ready looking forward to meeting Quibbos Lurts the CEO

at Pan-African resources and all sorts of interesting things and lots to talk about in the

golden street at the moment you know how to get in touch oh double 1 double 8 30702

0214 460567 and of course voice notes from there 7202 721 7202

the money show with Stephen Krutters live on 19.7 and 106 FM streaming on the Prime Media Plus

app and DSTV channel 856 welcome L plus saying today that it's planning to spend 1.9

billion round on DSTV now all of the talk up until now has been on cuts and so the backend

stuff but there does seem that they want to spend money to sort it out if you look at the number

of subscribers and how that's declined over the last years that you can see how much work

there is to do it did remind me though of a comment attributed I think to Rupert Murdoch of all

people a long time ago when the multi-channel era was just beginning and he would say content is

king realize there's a gender bias to that but content is king if you own the best stuff people

will come to you and I can't help but think it's that it is as simple as that and if I were

a canal plus and I was looking at trying to make sure I was getting money out of South Africa

good local drama remember how much people used to speak about more vongol or any of the others

you know just remember how much they used to talk about them I mean you see dingo's story lines

a different era but certainly you know he calls things like that now there's a reason why all

of those channels had a soap opera by the way and why in the UK all of the if I recall all of the

free t.a. channels the that sort of big five of them do have a have a have some kind of soap

opera brings people back every day they want to know they don't watch it every day watch it maybe

once a week or they walk past it or something the characters are familiar that kind of stuff

if I were a canal plus I would speak to what was his name greyhoff may he might be late now

actually he created quite a lot of our soap operas I'd speak to the people behind

behind behind more vongol I'd speak to those people and say look let's do another one 10

after seven then my show business unusual so as a parent as my children get older I sort of

realize that at some point they're not going to need me anymore and that's one thing I can kind

of live with that I'm programmed I think to understand that and that that will happen it's

inevitable it's not inevitable and it would it feels very different to think that that might happen

at work and I wonder if you've had that feeling that actually as an employee you kind of think well

I don't know if they need me here and because I think this might now be temporary I don't know

if I'm going to behave in the way that I used to I don't feel so invested a part of things

sepiro loyal is our organizational behavior specialist sepiro good evening I think a lot of

people must be feeling this at the moment yeah it's it's what now our minds we keep hearing that

we must adapt to the technology that evolution and I think deep down we know that just like the

great church I don't know if you remember the quote to he says if the rate of change outside

your organization is faster than the rate of change inside then the end is near and I think

conceptually we understand that because we are human beings we want predictability and order

we want to know am I still needed to say and those those feelings of being needed and those

to feel like I'm still valued here very important but many people are at that point right now

where they're feeling unsure about whether they're still needed about whether this AI revolution

is going to lead to job losses and some of them are just stalling with during their labor not

giving too much thinking constantly about what they would need to do beyond I mean the research

by Pew that found that about 52% of workers are worried about the impact of AI on their jobs and

and roughly I said believe it could replace job opportunities for them if they're longer and no

matter how many times people are sure that AI is not going to replace our jobs there is that

lingering feeling and and I wonder the impact of that lingering feeling on on engagement and

motivation on moral and just people doing what they just have to do and and not giving us that

discretionary effort that we what we want how can a leader know that this is happening in your office

I can start a manager sort of know actually this feeling is taking hold yeah I think the the

the for me the bottom line is to assume that it is especially if we're not having

conversations if if for example studies are telling us that 54% 52% of people are worried

you have to assume that people in your organization are worried as well the the idea I mean people

have even coined the 10 AI anxiety which is people are literally starting that and coupled with

the fact that many organizations still have this restructuring everyone is talking about

efficiency and and work is intensifying and we all know that in most organizations now when one

person leaves they're not going to probably announce retrenchments but they don't replace that

person and they don't replace that person and suddenly the entire layer management layer is

gone so people can see this and it leads to that idea of psychological replaceability and

and you have to assume that people in your team are having that unless you create such an

environment where people can talk freely where people have some kind of focus groups about the

impact of technology on the emotions on their carrier anxiety for me Steven you have to assume

that it is happening because it is so I mean no email from HR telling everyone they won't be

mess layoffs is going to help anything right no statement by CEO at the office party your jobs

are all safe because frankly we don't we don't believe them and we're right not to frankly

how do you then sort of make sure that employees do actually feel valued and that they they all

they do still have a place how do you how do you get that sort of discretionary work back if you

like yeah thanks Steven and I think I agree with you no matter how much you tell people they're not

going to believe I mean when I listen to your intro talking about the big acquisition by by

canal plus if you're working at at multi choice there's always going to be an anxiety and these

whenever there are majors in acquisitions there is a certain period where people are promised

that they won't be job losses but you wonder you keep wondering what what's going to happen for

example post that particular period and I think the the main thing is really to give people a sense that

that that they matter and and that and and show them evidence that they matter so things like

earthquake mission people people's work and for giving people feedback and also let's tell them

about the digital transformation strategy that the organization is going the main thing that gives

us a little bit of certainty is sharing and transparency about this is the digital transformation

that we're having and these are the new imaging roles that are happening and what what is the gap

between some of the roles that we have and the imaging role because we always find Steven in

most organizations that the skills between the declining jobs and the imaging roles are not

the skills are not that different and therefore if there's a risk-killing process that is leaders

were having and people feel like I am part of the risk-killing process and someone has showed me

what it would take to get those imaging roles then I feel slightly confident as well and and you

can only really give that signal the signal of trust the signal of growth that people are growing

and the signal that people really matter and it's not going to come by telling and I think at this

particular time just telling people is not going to be enough I think the more you share about what

the division what the company is going and how people can get there with you that's how people

are going to believe you I mean it's not the old thing if people think that they are progressing

if people think they are going to be part of it and if people think that the company they're

working for is progressing they just feel a lot better about things generally they do Steven and I

think each and every person wants to know that that I'm growing each and every person wants to know

that I still able to to lend I still have a part in this business and for me it's about really

communication that communicating how how that business how that future is going to look like so for

example if you ask people this is what we're trying to do do do do and I just play around and

experiment with what we're trying to do and then people the impact on their careers and their

well-being is much better and when people are actively engaged with whatever we're trying to do

here's there's a different AI that we're trying to do here's is what what we're trying to give

let's make sure that you you know you experiment with it and people will always feel like okay I'm

part of the process I'm still wanted here involvement being engaged and co-creating solutions

because the honest truth is that some of the middle management leaders sometimes they really don't

know what the bigger picture is they know we're changing but they don't know the bigger picture and

for me one of the best gifts you can ever give to your team members is to to promise them that

I will always tell you what I know and when maybe I'm not allowed to tell you about something I'll

always come back to you and also say look there is something more that I know but at the moment I

cannot tell I'll keep nudging those of those people in my CEOs and whatever to keep giving us

the information and when you do that you get trust because when you're not saying anything and

people you know there are a lot of members in the office people can sense these things and many

of us as leaders particularly in uncertainty we also become a loof and we go to our own corners

and I want to argue that in these changing times we need to stay closer to our people rather than

our way communicate communicate communicate and even tell them what you're not sure about.

Superior Moil thanks so much so interesting so much to think about organizational behavior

specialists 90 minutes after seven. What's up Steven? On 072 702 1702. Talking about

Eskim tonight talking about its plan to consult on the switching off of councils that have just

not been paying what they owe Eskim. I Steven the municipality can maybe keep the levies

and then Eskim can then take the money for the electricity solar for instance

the ministry will buy maybe the agency form from Eskim 400 rent but then sell it to us for like

a hundred dream to rent. So Eskim can then recover the hundred rent but then obviously pay over

the training range of the municipality I think that that could work. Yeah interesting actually

it's an interesting thought there are all sorts of things that we need to work out because really

we can't just keep going like there's something has to change. I mean seriously something really

does have to change. The money show. Consumer ninja. Well you're consumer ninja of course is

Wendy noiler and Wendy good evening. We'll talk about the main issue in a moment bank notes but

I'm very glad you're able to give us an update on this woman who had this home in Cape Town

a hundred and thirty years old as heritage home there was all of this terrible damage the insurance

company standard insurance limited they said no where in Teh was to blame for some of it she lost

and she went to the appeal tribunal of the national financial umbered they ruled in her favor and

I think where we left the story last week was that they still refused to pay her out. Hello Steven

yes indeed they still refused to pay her out they paid some of her claim but not all of it which

was quite odd in itself and the appeal tribunal ordered that the insurer standard insurance

pay her the balance of 101,000 rent this was they said there was borer in the roof in that

cause that she was able to prove that wasn't the case because she had all these certifications

and it was a mother of all storms it was hurricane force went so you know those things together

anyway um I'm happy to report that standard insurance has had a bit of an above tune and a

couple of days ago they paid the woman that 111,000 rent so nice ending in the end and not

sure what went to you know why they couldn't tell me that last week um and when I asked you

haven't paid what it's late the 27th of February was the deadline why I'm too paid and

they were like no we we're going to appeal that well there is no process to appeal the appeal

tribunal funding but anyway also all that ends well and the woman is really very delighted

yeah no I'm sure and I mean a long fight for her as well um yeah the main issue I mean so many

people still use cash I mean more than I think it's about 55% of our transactions are in cash um

but so there lots of banknotes that lots of coins um what happens when someone says well actually

I'm not going to take the snow do you have a particular case on this I do so the fact of the matter

is that all banknotes that are and coins for that matter issued by the South African Reserve Bank

sorry not all coins some have been discontinued at least stick with banknotes they the banknotes

have been issued by the Reserve Bank since 1961 remained legal tanned up are one sole specific

200 rent note the pre 2005 series they're out of the system long ago they're not in circulation

and it was withdrawn in 2010 because it was being counterfeited and and very good

our quality jobs at that so they withdrew in other words that's not legal tanned anymore but

and that's very a second what is it the 21 year old note now they're out of the system but for

some reason um people have got it into their head a lot of shop people have got it into their heads

that they can just reject it any banknote if it looks a little bit old to them so

Italy parking was buying groceries with 117 rand at a home essentials in Glen Ballet Mall

Kimpton Park she handed over 100 rent note and a 50 slightly older 50 rand note but in perfect

condition she said at the till there were no tears no stains nothing like that with the cash

I called the supervisor who fled out refused to accept the 50 rand saying management had instructed

them not to accept so-called old notes because the banks supposedly do not take them anymore

so yeah sorry for you I mean I mean I presume she she stood her ground I mean she sounds

like she's come to you like someone who might know a bit about the law yeah she did um and that's

why she found it quite a humiliating experience because she knew for sure that it was legal tender

that 50 rand note and they had no answer refused it so she pointed this out but the supervisor

wouldn't budge he insisted it was store policy so she did what most of us would have done to avoid

holding up the queue she paid with another note but she was understandably upset and decided

never to shop there again and then she also thought she'd reach out to me and see if I could take

up the case okay so I mean I don't know if you've had this happen before when did this idea arrive

that no we can refuse notes so it goes back to 2010 I remember it well it was just before the World

Cup Cup and the Reserve Bank directed the withdrawal of those specific old 200 rand notes

without the upgraded security features which had come into the notes in from 2005 so you know

the diamond shape the sparky ink there are a few features there which the old notes didn't have

so the problem Stephen is that some people are not good with nuance it's black or white so many

retailers and their staff began applying this you know this one note is a strong thing to you know

assume that all older looking notes were somehow now invalid and not legal tender and that

myth persists to this day and it's not just confined to 200 rand notes as with this case it's

every it's 50 it's 20 it's 100 it's just like oh that looks a bit old no the banks won't take

it's a complete lie but it persists I mean we're talking 15 years later it's ridiculous

what happened when you contacted the company it's called homosexuals right yes I spoke to the

director Paul Killian at first he suggested the note might have been stained or torn but once we

clarified that it wasn't because I saw a picture of it he quickly acknowledged a mistake

and he said the supervisor had made a wrong judgment call he apologized unreservedly to Idali

he offered her full refund for the purchase and importantly he committed to enrolling his staff

in the South African Reserve banks free online know your money course and I didn't know that existed

until I took up this case and it covers all these things identifying genuine notes security

features and the rules around legal tender and and yeah it's the kind of proactive step that

prevents these kinds of things happening and I thought that was a great response well done the

reserve bank as well yes absolutely okay so if I'm in the shop tomorrow and I've got a bank

note and it's perfectly legal and someone says no I'm not taking that the banks won't take it

what happens what what should I do oh well take off and just say look I understand there's a lot

of this conception around this but trust me this note is legal tender and if they still refuse

as to see the most a senior person I want to see speak to the manager and then you know if

that's still a no I would take a photo of the note get their refusal on record note the store in

the time and the date whatever and report it to the reserve bank or to the consumer journalists like

myself and and also if you stick to the truth what and the facts 100% I think you know if you're on

socials posted there because it's all about educating people and consumers and and shopkeepers that

this is really silly silly little practice that should have you know that should not still be

happening in 2026 so I mean this is on cash but they're also ways sometimes where I find that

retailers don't always treat their customers very well with card payments yeah this is actually a

bigger issue Stephen so I get a lot of complaints about two practices the one is shopkeepers making

consumers pay extra sometimes a percentage such as five percent sometimes more in other times

it's a flat fee and that flat fee you know if it's a low spend there's quite a big proportion

and they're basically making you pay their bank fees which is outlawed not only by the consumer

protection act but by the merchants agreement which they have to sign when they get that point

of sale machine so it's it's a big no no and the other one is imposing a minimum spend you want

to tap your card that's fun but you've got to spend at least a hundred grand or 50 grand or whatever

the case may be and that's again to cover their bank fees it's both rooted in the same illegal

practice and I had a case recently well I saw it on TikTok and I engaged with the woman where

she this happened and she wrote to the bank it was FNB and said this has happened this is the

store and please deal with it and they sent a letter to the store and that practice stopped you

said that wasn't 2024 and it's never happened since and that's store so this is something else

we consumers should be proactive about and just refuse to accept when do you know that your consumer

ninja thanks very much indeed really do appreciate that so interesting around cash at the moment 28

minutes after seven the money show shape shift is 24 minutes now to seven to eight o'clock well one

of the sectors which has just been the most interesting and I'm not talking about oil but one of

the sectors that we've been talking about so much for the last year or so at particularly in South

Africa has been the gold sector so we thought be a good idea to speak to someone who's

really at the center of it both here and I think more and more interestingly recently in

Australia someone who's been sort of investing involved in the middle of those deals

Cooper's Lewis is the CEO at Pan-African Resources. I can't imagine how busy you are at the moment

so I really appreciate the time thanks so much for coming in. No thank you for having me and

that's great to be here and we're not that busy all the time and that's the benefit of having

such a good team of people at Pan-African. I mean you've been in mining for quite a long time but

you actually qualified as a chartered accountant and and certainly during a time when you know

that was the route to being a CEO. Was that always what you wanted to do or was there at some

point an accountant now a frustrated accountant that maybe could have been on the charts too?

No it's interesting I sort of I guess sort of fell into mining where I wanted to do corporate

finance and got a call to say that there was a mining corporate finance role that had opened up

but Macquarie, the Australian Bank and after lots of tests and interviews so I didn't think

it would be glamorous or that interesting so I sort of got into mining that man earning

after a bit sort of felt that it would be closer to be a better to be closer to the action

and then sort of started looking at operational roles and sort of took it from there.

I mean it's one thing to manage numbers operational roles at a mine I realised there still

be spreadsheets involved. It must get quite nice and technical at times I mean you really are

getting deep into the middle of it. Sure it's most definitely but ultimately it's a people's

business like probably any other so people are one of your key assets, the senior people as well

as the guys that go underground every day and do the hard yards. Was there a particular drive

that you had where you just sort of for a while, well this looks interesting I'll go and do that

or was there always a thing that you were pursuing at some point? Well the thing was mining is in a

way I think it attracts a certain type of personality and once you are in it in a way it's a very

difficult to see yourself doing anything else. I mean you have this sort of really massive sickly

quality. You have so I mean an interesting people have generally a very short memory so

whatever the status quo is most people then would sort of perceive to be sort of permanent in terms

of prices and then you obviously have all the done dynamics in terms of stakeholders your employees

your unions electricity situations South Africa the regulate and everybody else so it took a very

complicated set of circumstances especially running a mine that has such a long horizons you know

what 50 years before it makes a man any money at all. Yeah well I mean that's sort of I guess the

climate has changed and in that 15 20 years ago shareholders and investors were still happy

to take a longer-term view and that's no longer the case so in terms of projects that want

that you undertake they have to have relatively short paybacks so it makes it more difficult to

take a longer-term view. I mean we're very fortunate in terms of upward folio that we have

long-life assets a barbit in which you know where everything started for pan-African has been going

for 140 years installed at least 20 years of life on some of those shafts. Sure. What does

you say your first job? I mean the first time you got money for doing something I mean I don't

know was there a car that was a bit cleaner afterwards. No I mean I did a bit of vacation work

at Deloitte in Tushua I wasn't doing articles and obviously a bit of like our jobs at university

so that was sort of pretty much my first job. And then after articles I mean working for

another accountancy firm or was there something? Well I went I went it was a great opportunity to go

and work in the U.S. for about six months and it was also the first time I could go to saw

the impact of a massive recession and and the dot-com boom exploding so I've been a bit of time

in Silicon Valley and yeah that was very interesting whereas the guys described this the mood and

the parties that was happening that were happening just a year before it was very different very

somber when I was there and it was a good experience. I mean when you look at the different jobs

that you've had the different experiences was there a particular time or a particular role or

a particular job where maybe you thought actually I'm learning so much and this is now giving me an

insight into what I really you know want to do or into kind of the country how things work in the

sector. Again I think it's you know I fortunate that you are certainly from a mining perspective I've

always been thrown in the deep end so when the examples would be when we we had a I'd worked for

a joint venture between Shenduke and Glencore buying coal mines and putting us together managing

them and building up with Folio and there was no script or blueprint for doing that it was sort of

just sort of learning as you as you went along and very fortunate to have been part of a very

entrepreneurial team in that regard and then sort of moved on to Shenduke working with the president

and looking off to all those mining interests and again it was quite an interesting and unique time

it was a time of empowerment transactions a lot of deals a lot of excitement in South Africa mining

and again there's like there was nothing the no script for for for learning how to do that.

Many people have sat in the chair that you're sitting in now and I've often asked them about a

boss or something that had an impact but I don't think any of them have had the president as the

direct boss so some of them are the businessmen at the time. I mean what was that like?

It was interesting again Shenduke was an organization at some extent was created because of

empowerment opportunity because of of his reputation and it sort of morphed in some way and it

became a I mean pretty much multi-dimensional and very complicated business and yeah I mean it was

an interesting time if I had to summarize the president was always very consulted of I think

the saying that sort of would ring somewhere like if you want to go fast you need to go alone if

you want to go for you need to let take a lot of people what so I'd say that was pretty much

his approach. He's always struck me as someone I mean the few times I bumped into him you know as

a working journalist before he re-entered politics everybody would say Mr. Ramapurza even though you

know he was an inverter commas just a businessman I've always thought even then there was a sort of

sense around him look wherever if I was following him somewhere there was always people interested

in him so maybe it was that it wasn't a bit like that when you're working with him I mean most

definitely I think he sort of because of the role that he played also P. P. Democracy had a certain

aura about him so most definitely and he was always a private person. Yeah even now you can see it

doesn't give much away. No not at all. I'm trying to get as much as I can and I can see that you

have some loyalty perhaps which is reflects very well on you and I suppose him.

You interpan African resources 11 years ago? Well actually longer so

there's a 2015. There's a long history so I was when I was with Shenduke we were the empowerment

shareholder in in in Barberton mines and then the owner of the majority stake actually ran into

difficulties in the Congo matrix which was a great mech here South African miner that oftentimes

is not given enough credit I think for what they did for the industry so I actually

dispose of the stake in Barberton and we did a deal to actually become the largest shareholder

Shenduke so I was in Barberton financial director of of Pan-African and I moved to non-executive

and then when sort of Shenduke started to change up I moved to Pan-African full-time financial

director but CEO yes since 2015 it's a fairly long time I guess in mining and also on a JAC

from a CEO perspective. Well it is and I mean part of me wants to say that's the job get easier

as you keep going especially in the same business and I realize that obviously 2015

gold industry will it from when he became CEO the gold industry then the gold industry now I like

completely different beast because the pricing is so different. The pricing is different but they

are obviously now also other complications but when I became CEO there's a very different

business we had Barberton mines pretty much only the underground which was at the time the lowest

cost underground mine in South Africa we continue to call Barberton a gift that gives on giving

it's difficult because of the illegal mining and everything else but still I mean it's one

of the few places we're after so many years of mining you still discover new all-bodies

so I mean if we're Barberton and we sort of bought the Evander underground from Harmony in 2012

and that mine if so all the gray here that I have pretty much has been as a result of Evander so

it was a time where our production was volatile we had a lot of issues breakdowns safety challenges

so there's a difficult time but it's a good time to I guess get to know what the role of a CEO

entails and I wanted to a couple of times I guess you know call it quits and yeah very very

grateful for the advice I received from a couple of very wise people to say just sort of stick it

out and yes I mean we're in a very different place from a pricing perspective most definitely

but Pan-African also is in a great place in terms of what we've done in terms of diversifying our

business into tailings in South Africa firstly initially and now also into Australia so the more

diversity you have or diversification rather the better you are able to absorb short-term shocks

and maintain your production profile. I'm going to ask about Australia in a sec but I do just

want to ask about the very high gold prices because I mean obviously at first blush it first

cited must just make it much easier to run a gold mine you know when there's more money coming in

but I wonder if there's also a bit more pressure from shareholders to do the right deals to make the

most of this opportunity. Most definitely is it is easier because I mean the margins have expanded

massively I mean we but in the last 18 months we've commissioned two large projects which one was

empty R on the wasteland and then also tenant in Australia so I mean our balance sheet was

fairly stretched after all of the capital we spent and because of the price and because of

the performance of the business we managed to repay all of this debt and we currently net cash

it's a great position to be in but as you say I mean that also comes with its own challenges and one

of the key questions we get from all shareholders is what are you going to do with the cash?

Fortunately I think Pan-African has a great track record in terms of capital allocation so we've

always managed to strike a balance between reinvesting in our existing assets growing the

business like we've done and in also returning cash to shareholders in the form of principally

dividends and we'll continue to do that we understand what a balance sheet looks like if you

can still call it that I guess we understand what what the cost of equity is and what generally

investors target and one other when you speak to find managed one of the key attributes of

management that they always try and ascertain is management's ability to allocate capital so that's

really where you need to to shop in your pencil and make sure that you know what you're doing.

I mean talking of Australia it's a medicine that you bought I think three hundred and eleven million

Australian dollars. Is that that part of your sort of longer term plan to basically have more

minds and more diverse places to diversify or your sort of reach if you like? Well I think I mean in

terms of South Africa we've expanded very nicely and we have some great growth projects MTR when

we that does a wonderful deal when we sort of bought the asset or for liquidator for two and a

half million dollars and proceeded to build you know what's I think in December last year we were

awarded the ESG mining project of the year award in the UK so this was great but I mean we pretty

much have our South Africa growth map out we're going to expand in tailings we investing in a couple

of new mechanized operations barbitin etc but we continue to always look for new opportunities we've

been all over Africa also assessing opportunities and minds a couple of transactions over the years

I'd say we regret not doing most of them though I think we dodged a couple of bullets so it was

quite strange that Australia came on to the radar and I mean the first thing we always look at

is geology and our head of technical services said this was an opportunity that's worthwhile and

investigating and yes I mean we sort of spent about a year doing due diligence we were very

fortunate to to be able to secure a toe holder a foothold in the business initially small equity

injection and then follow through as a complete and full acquisition I mean now if we were to

try and buy that asset the price would be it would be a multiple as evidenced by by Emerson

yeah no I mean it's it's quite extraordinary our things have changed very different the very

different to run a mine in Australia than to run a mine here I would imagine it is different

and so let's call it different challenges I would be sometimes laced polite but different

challenges and it keeps it interesting you don't have the same we're not firstly we have a good

team a great team of people in Australia so I mean our philosophy is generally in terms of our

business decentralized we don't try and control everything from the corporate office we have

excellent managers and they so run the day to day and also we're very aware of the difference in

culture difference in culture between South Africans and Australians we wouldn't want to

impose too many South Africans on the Australian business we got to know the Australian management

that we bought together the asset they stole there so yeah so my challenges are different permitting

is different labor is significantly more expensive the fact that you have people that do fly and fly

out also propose a challenge is so very different in a different landscape to what we used to

also becoming more and more useless a drug being cricket which I mean they have to make

we're speaking to Corbus Lurtsies your shapeshifties the CEO at Pan-African Resources it's nine minutes

the money show Stephen Curtis is brought to you by apps our corporate and investment backing

proud sponsors of GTR Africa 2026 enabling trade flows for growth after the registered FSP

the money show shapeshifters we're speaking to Corbus Lurtsies your shapeshifter tonight the

CEO at Pan-African Resources a company that's done phenomenally well and particularly at the

moment with the gold prices the way they are Corbus I mean when you I mean I say jet sitting I make

it sound glamorous I know it doesn't matter how you fly but when you land sort of early in the

morning it doesn't feel glamorous I'm very aware of that feels all sorts of other things um what's

that like I mean I presume you're one of those people who has the laptop on until you just can't

keep your eyes open anymore because there's so much to do and because there's peace and quiet in which

to do it and at the same time there'll be a lot of information you have to be going through ahead

of a deal things like that but that kind of life is it still fun I mean from the way you describe it

the way you describe the people you work with it must be it is fun on balance early or sacrifices

you know sort of in terms of you play the family time away from home jet lag is sometimes

challenging the fact that you don't really have a lot of downtime when you arrive at a destination

pretty much right into it but you know in a way I view those as first world problems it's a great

privilege to be able to do what we do um to create value for not only shareholders but I mean all of

our stakeholders the number of families that are dependent on us um from from us um

employee perspective and a supplier perspective and the communities we've been in but so it's a great

privilege it's great to to build something out of pretty much nothing or in the case of say an MTR

to like really turn around a desperate situation you get to see the world you get to meet lots of

interesting people so I mean if I complain about that then you know really I don't think it's um

it would be the right thing to do is there a particular place you've been to that you just want

to keep going back to here or overseas well I mean again it was a bit of benefit is that you

sort of travel quite a bit you go to CCR to shareholders and it's great to have built up it's

I would say it's through more of the sort of benefit of interacting with different shareholders

guys have been with us for so long in London um principally we've been going for the last 15

years now Australia so it's sort of more I get more of a people thing I mean one place that I

certainly found challenging to go to and um I wouldn't really want to visit again soon

would be the Republic of Sudan where we had some um some some very interesting exploration

assets but I do call it quits full of race development it's um you know it's great to do the

traveling and to see different places yeah um I don't know if you get much time to relax at all um

we have a sort of rule at this point uh in the interview is I normally ask the guest um what do you

do for fun but the rule is you're not allowed to say I spend time with my family and I job because

that's what everybody says but in your case uh I feel we may have to bend it a little bit because

marathons is your thing well I used to have I have to be honest I did it was a bit lazy uh

last couple of years uh the most recent big one I did was comrades 23 we actually lazy's

yeah well we started um we started uh our own running club to benefit the wellness of employees

start and uh so we had actually two runners in the top 10 first year of having a then African

running club we didn't buy any runners um so we focused on developing our own talent

Kelly I wasn't in the top 10 I was pretty much lost but I when I realized that sort of these

guys were running I figured I had to do it so I enjoy running um I enjoy uh pursuits where I mean

you can take your mind off uh day-to-day so enjoy flying um it's a hobby I took up about five years

ago um the diving it's interesting you can see sort of also see lots of interesting places

so I guess those sort of hobbies must be amazing to fly a plane I mean I I imagine it's not that big

single engine double engine yeah um sort of um rated single engine it's um it's quite daunting

the first time you go up by yourself you realize that you can't just pull uh pull to the side of the

road if you have an issue um so um that's an interesting way they they sort of get you into it as

you do a couple of circuits and then when they instruct the things that you ready he sort of just

tells you to stop and he jumps out and then you have to go on your way but you get used to it and

it's so I mean wonderful to sort of have a family and you fly to different places and I mean you

can get uh to to pretty much anywhere in South Africa one quickly yeah I mean that must be amazing

I mean changes changes the game completely and diving not many CEOs I mean I had one guy tell me

aerial photography was his was his thing I still am not sure I think he was being honest um but

diving I mean that's also something I mean some people see that as extreme I mean I don't know

what kind of diving you do but if you're in Australia I know where you'll want to go driving diving

well one of the most interesting places I've actually uh at the privilege of diving was the

red sea off the coast of Sudan and there's an old British fort that uh built out of limestone uh on

an atoll about 50 kilometers from the mainland and as you can imagine not an awful lot of tourist

traffic there so the most interesting thing the mistake we made was to um eat some of the snacks

afterwards which didn't do too well the next day but other than that it was a fantastic experience

you still excited about the future of mining very much so I mean I think people have uh the

world's forgotten about mining even though it's one of the only two primary industries and

it's coming more back into focus very quickly and um uh I think it's going to continue to be an area

that'll be heavily contested in this world where you have the major powers fighting over

critical minerals I mean there's not enough copper doesn't look to us as though there is I mean

gold is effectively the currency of uh the past and now maybe in the future um so it's it's exciting

as I've said I mean to be able to make a positive difference where you operate is a wonderful privilege

yeah curvus I really enjoyed talking to you thanks so much really appreciate it thank you very much

curvus Lutz is the CEO at Pan-African Resources he's been your shapeshifter tonight on the Manisha

the Manisha Stephen Curtis is brought to you by apps our corporate and investment backing proud

sponsors of GTR Africa 2026 enabling trade flows for growth apps as originated at FSB

well US market still negative still concerns I'm sure about the situation uh around

Iran and oil prices that our Jones is down 0.9% the Nasdaq is down 0.39 the S&P 500

a down half a percent so much of course going on uh so much movement and volatility is the

word in markets at the moment and as yet no clear indication of when the conflict will end or

even how it will end uh which does I suspect mean that uh we might be in this position for a little

longer than anyone would feel comfortable we're back tomorrow or brings next good evening at 8 o'clock