‘The Kylee Cast’ feat. Dr. Carrie Gress, Ep. 33: Can You Really Be A Christian And A Feminist?

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Hi everybody and welcome to The Kylie Cast.

I'm Kylie Griswald, managing editor at The Federalist.

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Today I am so excited to welcome to the show Dr. Carey Gris.

Carey is a wife, a homeschooling mother of five.

She's a senior contributor to The Federalist.

And she is the founder and editor of Theology of Home.

And she's the author of 10 books.

Most recently, something wicked.

Why feminism can't be fused with Christianity.

It is such a good read.

And I feel at this point compelled to offer a trigger warning for our conversation

because it's such a hot topic.

Carey and I dive into the origins of feminism

and why first wave feminism is actually just as destructive

as the subsequent waves, as well as what feminism even is

and how it's harmed Christian marriages

and how women who are Christians but have been seduced by feminism

can get out of the feminism cult and reclaim

a biblical worldview of womanhood.

That end so much more.

Without further ado, please welcome to the show, Carey Gris.

[♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

Carey Gris, it is so great to have you on the Kylie cast.

Thank you for joining me today.

Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

I have been chomping at the bit to talk to you about this book.

Ever since I heard about it

and then after reading about it even more so,

it's such an important topic

and I just can't wait for more people to read it and to learn about it.

So why don't before we dive into the themes of the book,

why don't you just tell listeners a little bit about yourself

and how you came to write this book?

Yeah, so I am a mother five.

I have a PhD in philosophy and when I was doing that PhD,

I said out loud to God that I would never write on women's issues.

Here we are, 11 books in and I think most of them

have been related to women's issues.

So God, you should never do that.

No, don't do it. It always backfires.

The same thing happened actually when I met my husband.

I met him and thought the poor woman that has to marry this guy

and ended up marrying him.

So God has a great sense of humor.

But at any event, yeah, so about 10 years ago,

I wrote my first book, just really starting to screw

nice feminism and that book came out in 2018.

It was called the anti-marie exposed rescuing the culture

from toxic femininity.

And really at that point, nobody was talking about this

about feminism as an issue.

And so it's kind of an outlier, but the book did well.

And I had all these people say, can you write a book

that would be more secular friendly or Protestant friendly?

And I was told it up for that because I thought

that the themes were very universal

and were not specific just to Catholics.

And so I then wrote another book called The End of Woman.

And that came out with Regnery in 2023.

And that was great.

It sort of did well.

And it was just kind of a philosophical walk

through the foundations of feminism

and how we got from feminism to the trans movement

and all the pieces in between.

And then finally, I realized I haven't put the nail

on the coffin yet.

I haven't made it clear that feminism and Christianity

really are from totally different DNA.

They have different roots entirely.

And we just as Christians need to stop trying

to make the two work because it's creating a lot of damage.

It's creating a lot of confusion more than anything.

And I think that Christians in general

just don't know what's good and what's bad

and what parts we can keep and what parts we can't.

And so that was really the goal with this book

is to just finally add a lot of clarity

and just say, love these are two very distinct philosophical groups.

Feminism is actually set up to undermine

and to get rid of Christianity.

And we need to just stop trying to make the two work together.

Yes, in the book, you include so much fascinating history.

And I was especially captivated by your section

on first wave feminism.

And it kind of took me back mentally

to a big project I did in college.

It was my capstone project on the transgender revolution.

And that was before it became quite the flash point

that it is now.

But in my research, I mean, it took me directly back

to second wave feminism.

I mean, there's a direct line between Betty Friedan

and Bella Abzug and their work and Simone de Beauvoir

and the trans movement and the way that they talked about

being beyond gender and not being born a woman

but becoming one and all these things.

But I think, so that made sense to me.

Like why second wave feminism was so evil and so subversive.

But I think subconsciously, I believed the lie

that first wave feminism was OK.

Because here are these noble goals.

This was necessary, but second wave feminism wasn't.

And diving especially into that first few chapters

of your book where you really get into the nasty origins

of first wave feminism really opened my eyes even more

to some of these issues.

So can you, can you just kind of a 30,000 vote view

because I think we could talk about this for a full hour

but just kind of why the first wave was just as bad

as the second and third wave?

Yeah, so the first wave, I bought the lie as well.

And actually, when I wrote my book to end of woman,

I thought, OK, I've got two days to research the first wave.

I'll just find some nice clothes and then I'll move back

to the second wave.

And you know, I'm still in the first wave.

I haven't been able to leave it yet.

It's just so, so much.

And I keep digging and finding more.

And that for this book for something wicked,

what really became super abundantly clear

was just the idea of how much the first wave was really

built on disordered theological ideas.

Mary Wallstonecraft actually was,

as she had migrated in her faith from Anglicanism

to then dissenting Christian and then on to Unitarianism,

which doesn't believe in the Trinity.

It doesn't believe in the Divinity Christ.

And she actually, you know, makes the point

that any kind of male mediator, and she's

here talking about both pastors and priests,

and Jesus himself, is a block or an obstacle

to a woman's potential to have a relationship

or be in relationship with God.

So she makes that very clear.

And then you can see as the movement moves forward,

it jumps across the pond over back to the United States.

But all of those early first wave feminists

from Lucretia Mott and Fanny Wrights,

another one that people are coming to know,

Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony,

Matilda Gage, on and on, they, almost to all of them,

were both became Unitarians.

So they left Calvinism and being Baptists,

to anything mainline they left for Unitarianism.

And then most of them also dabbled in the occult,

and were very involved in what was called spiritualism,

which was, sayances and knocking on tables

and all kinds of things.

And that's actually where Elizabeth Cady Stanton

had the idea for the Seneca Falls Convention

in the first place was at one of those spirit tables,

which is now in the Smithsonian, here in Washington.

So yeah, it's pretty amazing when you start looking at it.

But Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, in particular,

their newspaper was called the Revolution.

And they very specifically were targeting Christianity.

And they wanted, they believed that it was a tool

being used by men to enslave women.

And they compared women's lives to those of slaves.

And they're very explicit about this kind of overlap,

which was audacious when you actually look at who these women were

and how privileged they were.

They're making this effort to compare themselves

to slaves before the Civil War.

It's really amazing.

So that's kind of the nest of it, or the essence of it.

And then even things like suffrage was important,

but it was just more, seemingly was more important

was this idea of transforming the understanding of womanhood

into something very masculine, like trying to women

believe that they would be happier than more.

They became like men, and that they

had to just get rid of the shackles of Christianity

and that then they would be liberated from it.

So that's kind of the big picture, I think.

Yeah, yeah, oh my goodness.

There's so much to unpack in what you just said.

I mean, of course, as we've seen since then,

there is no limiting principle to becoming more like men.

I mean, you know, first it's unshackling yourself,

then it's, you know, then we see the introduction of the pill

like way later, of course, makes women more like men.

And then abortion makes women more like men.

And then, oh, you can just actually become a man, actually.

You're not actually confined to your womanhood.

I mean, there is no logical endpoint.

It's so destructive.

I also think it's so interesting that so many

these first wave feminists did have religious roots

that they did actually have some theological understanding

or backing because it strikes me that this was almost,

you know, early deconstructionism.

And it's so, so interesting because, you know,

all over Instagram, and maybe it's just my algorithm

or the type of people that I follow,

but it seems to me that there is a huge overlap

that then diagram might just be mostly a circle here

of women who have bought into feminism

and women who have deconstructed from Christianity.

And of course, there's still a lot of women who claim

to be Christians and I are, I think, faithful Christians

who don't know that they've been deceived by feminism

and would also identify as feminists.

But I think there's also a large segment of women

who do have a religious background

but were maybe poorly categorized

whether they're Catholic or Protestant

and have fallen for feminism.

And that feminism has deconstructed the weak faith

that they did have.

And it's, so it's just interesting.

You even see this in the first wave,

because hopefully that's what happened

to the architects of feminism.

Right.

Now, and that was one of the things

that was really fascinating to see was just these loops

that, you know, these cycles that go that we go through.

And so very explicitly, I was seeing, you know,

what were happening among Protestants

in particular, kind of this engagement with the occult,

whether it's anyograms or, you know, just manifesting

and various things that you're popping up.

All of those things happened in the 1800s.

And I think, you know, the first thing we have to do

in understanding this is sort of get rid of this sense

that we have of this very Victorian prim and proper era

that really recognized that there was something very radical

going on during this period.

And even Percy Shelley, who was, you know,

he seems like a totally random person,

but he's, you know, English poet,

who created this woman named Sithna

that became the model for what feminism became.

She's these three pieces.

One of them was contempt for men,

which came from Shelley's mother-in-law, Mary Wollstonecraft.

From his father-in-law, he got the idea of what they called

free love or the end of monogamy.

His father-in-law, William Godwin, thought that marriage

was a kind of slavery.

And he later went on to influence Marx significantly.

And then Shelley added his own fascination with the occult.

But he also said, you know, way back then,

this is like early 1800s said, we, you know,

eventually we'll get rid of this construct

called gender or sexuality.

I'm not exactly sure what language he used,

but that was kind of that the idea was that he saw

that this was something that we'd just seen

it to rid ourselves of.

And so it's interesting to see, you know,

he's saying this well over 200 years ago.

And now if you look at feminism today, what is it?

It's contempt for men, it's promiscuity,

and it's the occult.

So not everybody obviously is involved in all three

of those things, but you can see how once you are,

those things really do enslave you

into this kind of, you know, this, this new slavery,

I think of of use and denigration

that we're really seeing around us now.

You know, it's very hard to uphold the ordered dignity

of a person when those pieces are really at play

and that isolation that comes with them and whatnot.

So yeah, it's absolutely amazing to see the patterns,

I think.

Yeah, and just that those seeds were present

from the very beginning, again,

that this wasn't something that started as an innocent thing

that kind of snowballed out of control.

It's this, this was the, this was the point the whole time.

Yes, and there's nothing new, nothing new under the sun here.

This is a total sidebar, but I also found it so interesting

as I was reading this first wave history

because I took literature classes in college,

specifically British literature, and it was so funny

to see that there's just these two parallel tracks,

like I knew of a lot of these characters,

but I didn't know of them as being so adjacent

to first wave feminism.

I just knew of their writing, you know, the shellies

and all of them, and then seeing how they fit into

Mary Walnstone, I don't know how to say her name.

Wolfstone Kraft was just very fascinating.

I'm like, wow, there's way more to probe here

than I had any idea when I was, when I was superficially studying

these authors in college.

So fascinating.

Wow, no, I think maybe we should have started here,

but, but can you, how do you define feminism?

Because I know everybody has a different idea of what it is.

So, so, you know, do you think it is?

So, I think feminism, what we're not talking about

is just this general idea that feminism is about helping women.

I think this has been kind of a, a blob definition

that that feminism is trying to use

and has really stuck under the radar because of it.

You know, it's, it says, well, if you don't like feminism,

you must not want to help women or, you know,

it's evaded scrutiny.

And I think very specifically looking at what's happened

with feminism and the movement

and the whole trajectory, feminism really is about creating

autonomy for women, for women as something of an idol.

That that's really the goal of a woman's life

is to be autonomous from career, I mean, from husbands

and children to have her own career and sort of basically

dictate the way that her life looks,

that she's, she's sort of the one behind the controls

instead of being deeply embedded in relationships and whatnot.

And then in addition to that, I have all these other pieces

and this is really where the book came from,

kind of this idea of recognizing that feminism

is this shadow church, is because I think feminism

has mimics a lot of the things that you see in Christianity.

So it has this, you know, we have an object

of worship in Christianity, which is this God.

And feminism has this idol of women's autonomy.

And then from there, you go to, you know,

the different commandments that it's got,

which are, I just discussed that the contempt for men,

the promiscuity and the involvement in the occult.

It's got sacrament, which is abortion.

It's got its own form of evangelization,

which is certainly, you know, broken women break

other people around them and we see that in spades.

And then it becomes much more easy to become a feminist

because of the bitterness and whatnot that's sewn in it.

And then another extraneous piece of it,

but I think is really important is that the emotional level,

Christianity has faith, hope and love.

Feminism has contempt, rage and envy are really the emotions

that it really is trying to promote in women.

And that's certainly not by accident,

either that comes, goes back to the early 1890s

when the socialists realized that women

are a lot more politically active and engaged

when they're angry.

So anyway, those are, that's kind of the fabric of it.

And that's what I talk about in the book itself

are all these different pieces that you see

that kind of line up as, as imitating Christianity.

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I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan,

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Yeah, I think it is interesting that this kind of blob

definition is so easy to get behind.

I think that's why so many women fall for it is.

Oh, it's just because to oppose feminism is just

to oppose woman kind.

If you believe the modern conception of the definition

of feminism, and it is just so interesting that the feminists

have not only defined their own movement wrongly,

but they've also defined what being an anti-feminist

is wrongly as well.

They kind of hold all the definitions.

And it's hard because the definitions are so vague

to oppose feminism because, again, it's such a flowery vague

definition and hard to oppose something

that sounds so noble and so wonderful.

Well, then it adds on the you certain people aren't allowed

to talk about it.

Men can't talk about it because they're not women.

And then I'm not supposed to talk about it

because I have a PhD.

It sort of becomes this mommy-dearest relationship.

You've benefited from feminism.

Therefore, we can't talk about it, which nobody would accept

that when it comes to any kind of religion,

you've benefited from Christianity.

Therefore, you can't scrutinize it.

That's ridiculous.

No one, no secular person or no one who would consider themselves

a feminist would actually allow that to happen in that case.

So why is it that somehow it's this is protected entity?

Right.

It's not locked behind the curtain that what's really going on

behind it and see, is this really good?

And I think it's because so much of it is really bad

that it's worked hard to hide it from the general population.

You touched on autonomy when you talked about the three

commandments of feminism.

Can you, in the book, you write that autonomy is both a lie

and an idol.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Yeah.

So autonomy is fascinating because one of the things

that you see, first-way feminism, for all of its faults,

you've got all these women who are with the best of intention

trying to protect other women.

The irony is, of course, that all the efforts

that they've made to try to protect women

have not actually worked.

So for example, if you look at who Mary Wallstone craft

is trying to protect her sister and her best friend

and the relationships they were involved in,

we still see the exact same kind of abuse in women,

only it's much, much worse.

Especially if you include human trafficking

and all the other reality, awful realities

that we're seeing today in the world.

So there's this effort at trying to bubble wrap women

that if we don't have these relationships with men

or with children, and we're just really focused

on what our own career and focus,

then we're not going to be vulnerable.

But of course, that's the lie because you're still vulnerable.

It just comes in different stages.

And it's just part of being human is that idea

of being in relationship with others

and loving others and self-gift.

And the tragedy is, of course, that so many women buy into this.

And then it's not until they're 50, 60s that they realize,

like, OK, this lie about my fertility was a total lie.

And now I'm alone.

And this is not at all what I wanted my life to look like.

So I think that's the big lie.

But the thing that's so compelling about it

is this idea of autonomy is appealing

because you don't have to wait for a man to ask you on a date.

You don't have to wait for someone to propose to you.

It's everything is really about your own control and power

and what it is that you want.

And the career certainly is the goal of this elusive goal

of having this incredible career

and being very fulfilled by that.

But I think, obviously, there are problems with that

as an idol because that's never going to satisfy you,

especially because it becomes so insular and self-gazing.

And we know through Christianity that joy

really comes from self-gift and giving of ourselves

to others and uniting ourselves with God's will

instead of it being all our will.

So I think that those are all of these things

are problematic because it's questing after something

that's a much lower good than what it is

that we're meant to really be seeking.

And sadly, of course, our economic system

is really built around this.

You've got medical schools and law schools

promoting the idea of freezing eggs and women

that you can just put off motherhood until you're ready for it

and these things, too, are just laden with lies

because, of course, women's fertility

isn't a switch that can be flipped on and off at will,

but it has its path in course and levels off

steeply after a certain age.

So yeah, I think that's the real issue

is just trying to see past this that this really

is about being seduced into an idea of what it is

it's best for us and what fundamentally really is

the best thing for women.

Yeah, it's interesting that I, okay, so I wonder

if that is why IVF specifically can be so seductive

for Christians or for people who would carry the label

of pro life but are deceived into thinking

that IVF is pro life rather than what it is

which is part of big fertility.

It's actually horrible for women.

It's deadly for children.

Because you're not fully scorning motherhood,

you are just trying to have your cake and eat it too.

It's like trying to value human life,

trying to value motherhood, but also trying to live out

the lie of autonomy and the idol of autonomy of,

I can have my career, I can pursue the things

that I want to pursue, I'm not shackled by my fertility,

I'm not shackled by a single motherhood,

or a stay-at-home motherhood life in the home,

but I can still hold these two things

that are kind of contradictory of motherhood

and the feminist ideal simultaneously

will also convince him that IVF is a pro life

and Christian position.

And I hadn't thought of that till just now,

but it really seems like maybe one way

that the enemy can deceive women into thinking

that they can be both feminist and Christians

and also pro life while supporting these practices

that are inherently neither Christian nor pro life.

Yeah, now I think that's an amazing point

because you just connected a lot of really interesting dots

that I hadn't really thought about,

but I think that what you've just described

is what we're seeing, especially among conservative feminists

and Catholic feminists in particular,

is kind of this cake and eat it to attitude

where it can be, I can still do all these things

that I want to do without having to give anything up.

And the reality is that that's the big problem

is that we have been seduced and told

and even the whole culture reflects this,

this idea of having it all and being able to do it all

and there's no sacrifice at any point.

But we know that order, beauty, love,

all of these things are actually built on sacrifice.

And obviously this is the beauty of a woman

having many seasons of her life

and being able to learn which season needs to,

what needs to happen at what season that's really important.

But instead we've prioritized kind of this goal

of like the career and still wanting to be the stay at home mom.

But in the end of it, and actually I wrote a piece

about this for the Federalist

was this idea of kind of this cruel math of,

you can't do both a full-time mom

and the full-time career without something giving.

And sadly what we have seen give are the children.

And I think IVF is just another piece even earlier

at an earlier stage of where we are expecting children

to sort of accommodate us instead of the other way around.

So yeah, really the way that you articulated that.

The self-sacrifice point is such a good point too

because I think one thing that I've heard

from self-described feminist Christians

is just this idea of Jesus as a liberator.

And you know, of course in some ways

we know that that is true in the sense that he frees us

from our sins, like he liberates us in some ways.

But just sort of going back to the basics

of what we know about the character of Christ

as not somebody who liberates us to self-actualization

but rather to self-denial.

Like he is the epitome of self-sacrifice.

That's the whole point of the gospel

is that he came to actually lay down his life

for the good of others.

And just this idea that the feminist ideal of I can have it all

and I can determine my destiny.

And you know, I can live out my dream,

even if it requires putting my family

and other people around me on the back burner.

It's so anti the character of Christ.

And we can co-opt feminist language

and sort of try to marry it to Jesus speak.

But it just doesn't work

because that's just not who the savior is.

And so it's so important to help get women out

of these patterns of thinking

that are just really, really anti biblical.

Yeah, no, I think that is such a great point too.

You know, one of the books that I used for my research

was this book called Satanic Feminism.

And when I first read this book,

it's published by Oxford University Prize.

Very academic, it was a dissertation.

And for one reason, I don't know why

I never looked at the subtitle of the book.

And I just assumed that this guy was against feminism

because with a name like Satanic feminism,

you would think that who would be for that?

But the subtitle of the book is basically

how a Lucifer liberated women,

that's the subtitle of the book.

And so it's really interesting

because he's of course using, it's really an awful book,

but the research is amazing

and it was incredibly helpful,

especially in my book, The End of Woman.

But that's the amazing thing,

it's just this, what does that word liberate mean?

And what's being, what is it playing out?

And so if you go back to the first wave,

what they mean by liberation is freedom

from husband and Christianity.

That's exactly what they mean.

They don't mean that this sort of contorted way

of no more sacrificing.

They mean the exact opposite of that.

And that really is, I think what you're right,

Christ calls us to, was this life of following him,

of emptying ourselves out for others.

And that's really where we're going to find joy

and happiness and we're going to find,

just the beauty of complementarity of male and female,

going back to Genesis,

which is a whole other layer of things

that have been distorted by the feminists

in the first wave in particular,

is this idea of who Eve was and what she represented.

So anyway, yeah, I think these are really important terms

that we need to understand deeply

who the person of Christ was

and what it is that we're meant to follow

instead of just having this expectation

that really it's an entitlement.

It's a sense of entitlement

that we're somehow owed things

instead of offering things.

Yeah.

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner

at Morgan and Morgan,

which is America's largest injury law firm.

That's pretty awesome.

I think I saw Billboard years recently

that said 20 billion won.

20 billion is an insane number.

Yeah, 20 billion recovered.

It's actually, I think,

somewhere north probably closer to 22, 23 after this year.

And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows.

So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger

and bigger as time goes on.

Awesome.

How does someone do in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

What would I do if I got into an accident?

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law.

That's pound 529 from your cell phone.

We are always open.

Our call center is always waiting to take your call.

24, 7365.

Wow, Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan

America's largest injury law firm.

Thanks for coming by the show.

Thanks for having me.

Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

You bring up Genesis and that was one thing that struck me.

I think you bring it up multiple times in the book

about just the Satan's tactic of going after the woman

and how that worked in the garden

and how that has just continued throughout all time.

That you, I forget how you phrase it.

Maybe you can articulate it better,

but just the way that you can crumble so many things

by like captivating women and catching them in the sin

and the way that it's just destroyed everyone,

not just women.

Right, right.

Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right.

There's something about womanhood where men will follow

what it is that women do.

We see that with Eve.

And so you better get your women right.

And this is the tragedy of what feminism has done

is because it has silenced men so broadly.

It's just amazing to hear the crickets say,

then there's so many men.

I hear privately all the time who don't like feminism,

who don't want feminism.

And there are certainly a few that are speaking up

and the voices are getting louder and stronger

and more numerous.

Thanks be to God, but we're in like the sixth decade

of this and it's taken a very long time.

I think for that realization,

and we had to get to this point where people,

it's just so obvious to see what the damage is.

And so people are feeling a lot more comfortable,

I think talking up or speaking up about it.

But absolutely, that Fulton Sheen had this amazing line

about how you can measure a culture by the level of its women

because women are typically meant to be something

that men aspire to be worthy of.

So when you have women who are not aspiring to anything worthy,

in fact, it's very difficult to even define

what a good woman is in the culture today.

There's nothing for them to aspire to.

There's nothing for them to really have to become better men

in order to be attractive and something that that woman feels

like is worth attaching herself to.

And so I think this is one of the reasons

why we're seeing so many problems.

The constant complaint, there's no man out there.

Well, what are we done with women?

It sort of feels like in many respects,

this race to the bottom of which sex can behave worse

instead of the opposite, which actually has sort of

this internal motivation for people to become better,

built in when you're really working with human nature

as it ought to be worked with.

Right, well, and it's not just about character and virtue,

but also about function.

You don't need men to be providers

when women become the providers

and women are core substitutes for it.

But still, when women have supplanted men in function,

then you also don't need men to step up

to do what they were designed to do.

And so it's just the fault of not being able to find

good men in many ways, probably in most ways,

falls at the feet of women.

And we really need to own up to that.

Well, and I think that's right.

In terms of even looking at where the big change happened,

and it certainly happened in the 60s and 70s

with free love, you know,

promiscuity becoming something to which women really aspire

because they thought that would make them more like men.

That's the big change that I think took place

and that we haven't really paid enough attention to

to really realizing the incredible amount of damage

that is being done by that.

But the amazing thing is that women aren't generally able

to be autonomous and take care of all the things that they want.

It usually ends up being the state

that takes over the role of the man.

And that's the real tragedy

because that's when you are really trapped

because we become so dependent on the state.

And of course, the state then has to grow larger.

And then you've got men who are not responsible

for anyone or anything.

So yeah, it's amazing to see, you know,

there's no longer just sort of two people here.

There's the state has become its own entity

such that the phrase bioregamy is being used,

you know, women are now married to the state and not to men.

That is such a good point.

And it's not even hidden anymore.

I mean, this has been an explicit goal of the government

since, I mean, probably before Barack Obama,

but life of Julia comes to mind.

Of this idea that there's this woman

who is fulfilled in every way

and she doesn't have a husband and, you know,

big brother is her husband

and he takes care of her from cradle to grave.

And it's, oh, it's just so damaging.

And I don't understand, I don't understand the allure.

Like why isn't this desirable for women, you know?

Because you're not autonomous.

You are not self-sufficient.

You're not independent.

You are still cared for by an abuse of husband

because the state will never love you back.

It's not as much as you'd be up to it.

And I think that's a really fundamental point, though,

is that women's vulnerability hasn't gone away.

It's just been masked or somehow we've been fed something

a line about it that it's not true.

Somehow we don't believe that we're vulnerable,

even though we're still married to the state, you know,

that it's this incredible amount of confusion about it.

And then if you look at the flip side, though,

you know, what happens when you have men

who provide?

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Charm Supply.

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan Morgan,

which is America's largest injury law firm.

That's pretty awesome.

I think I saw Bill Board of yours recently

that said 20 billion one.

20 million is an insane number.

Yeah, 20 billion recovered.

It's actually, I think, somewhere north probably closer

to 22, 23 after this year.

And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows.

So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger

and bigger as time goes on.

Awesome.

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

What would I do if I got into an accident?

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law.

That's pound 529 from your cell phone.

We are always open.

Our call center is always waiting to take your call.

24, 7365.

Wow, Dan Morgan.

From Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm.

Thanks for coming by the show.

Thanks for having me.

Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

I'm protect and understand their role as husbands and fathers.

And it's in that space that suddenly a woman's vulnerability

is no longer liability.

It's actually an asset because that's

when she really is allowed to become the person

that she's meant to be, which is a life giver.

Women are meant to be life givers,

whether we're biological mothers or spiritual mothers,

all of these different aspects in which

women, mother, others, when you are cared for and protected

and loved, then suddenly all of that

can bloom in this incredibly beautiful and fruitful way

in our lives where children know that they're loved

and can grow up to be the children that they're

meant to be instead of passed around from organization,

organization, or a person to person.

And then the marriage itself obviously

becomes stronger as well.

So I think that we, it's exciting to start

thinking about how do we, as conservatives,

start creating better models of what is available to us

when we actually follow a human nature

and really understand the complementarity of male and female.

And then Herbal gifts that men have and then what women have.

And even that baseline idea, like when

you tell a woman that she's a mother

and she understands that to a core,

even if she has no children, we see it certainly

in little girls, this innate desire to mother.

And we help her do that in a way that's

ordered and not driven by her emotions or her ego or whatnot.

Suddenly she can do amazing things no matter where she's at.

If she's in the workplace or if she really is,

she does have her own children or if she ends up

working in a job that requires her to be really compassionate.

Then she looks like a much different person

and she can really get through life

in a different way instead of always searching for something.

It becomes about her becoming more of who she's

meant to be instead of grasping at things

that are supposed to just be pleasurable or tantalizing

or the next adventure or the next wardrobe or whatnot.

There's a real core and a depth there.

And I think that's what we're missing today

and the idea of good woman is that core of what it means

to take care and love and treasure and be loyal to others.

That's such an important point.

I've been thinking a lot about this idea of misplaced

mothering because this desire to mother

is inherent in women even if we do fight against our biology.

But I've been thinking about it a lot

and now that we've been talking about the state

and kind of being married to the state,

it strikes me that it's not just a one-way relationship

there either where the state becomes the husband for the woman.

But also in many ways becomes the object of her mothering

where we see this a lot with progressive political activism

where women will murder their own children in the womb

but then use their mothering instinct

to go protest for children in another country

that they don't know and will never meet.

And I think of the lies from the media

about the five-year-old used as bait by ICE or whatnot.

And the number of women who came out of the woodwork

to mother this boy in the sense of caring for him

and advocating for his rights and all these things,

it's like these are all instincts that are good

but they should be channeled toward your own children.

And then you run into all kinds of media propaganda.

I mean, there's many, many elements of this

that have nothing to do with feminism specifically.

But it just strikes me that it's actually a circular relationship

where you care for the state cares for the woman

and then the woman will use her mothering instinct

to sort of facilitate more of this from the state.

And it's just, it's so crazy,

you cannot deny this biological urge to mother

and I had a really awesome conversation last week

with Chloe Cole on the podcast.

She fell for the trans lie as a child

and was living as a man, quote unquote, for a while

and has detransitioned.

And she talks about how one of the things

that kind of brought snapped her back to reality

was being in class and learning about pregnancy

and breastfeeding and it's striking her

that like, I'm never gonna get to do this

but she's wired to do this and she wants to do this

and how powerful just that like,

women can spend their whole lives fighting against this urge

but it's still there and maybe it manifests in ugly ways

but it doesn't go away just because you fall for abortion

and all these other anti-woman, anti-life things.

The urge to mother is still present.

Yeah, no, I think that's really important

and obviously the pet craze has been a huge avenue through which

yes, women are still mothering now that,

especially now that you see dogs and strollers

and it's just amazing how far it's gone.

But yeah, it is that misplaced compassion,

that idea of the woman who works for PETA

but she's aborted her own child and I think,

one of the ways that I've started talking about it

and thinking about it specifically

is just to really ask that question like,

how local is your love or the people that you love?

Can you touch them?

Can you see them?

Can they see your face?

Because that's really where women excel

and are so gifted because we're so embodied

to be a sense of home for others,

certainly in a very real sense as far as having a child

that's a woman is the first home for every human

and then it only extends out of there

in terms of the amount of time that you just spend

holding a baby, looking at a baby,

holding your children, being dialed into them

in a very real and rich way.

And instead we've said, oh, that's not really that important.

You need to be doing big things, saving the universe

or saving the world, right?

Doing something with people that you have,

probably never even meet.

So I think you're exactly right about that real inversion

that's happening and continues to happen

and be sold to us as a good...

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan,

which is America's largest injury law firm.

That's pretty awesome.

I think I saw Billboard years recently

that said 20 billion won.

20 billion is an insane number.

Yeah, 20 billion recovered.

It's actually, I think, somewhere north,

probably closer to 22, 23 after this year.

And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows.

So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger

and bigger as time goes on.

Awesome.

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

What would I do if I got into an accident?

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law.

That's pound five, two, nine from your cell phone.

We are always open.

Our call center is always waiting to take your call.

24, seven, three, sixty five.

Wow, Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan

America's largest injury law firm.

Thanks for coming by the show.

Thanks for having me.

Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Let's go back to the three commandments of feminism.

Because one thing in the book that really struck me

that I've been kind of noodling on

is how these three commandments of feminism,

which I think you said are promiscuity, what is it?

Autonomy and the occult.

Is that correct?

Promiscuity can tempt for men and the occult.

Oh, yes.

OK.

And how they directly attack the Trinity,

which is especially interesting in light of the unitarian

beliefs of the early feminist.

But can you kind of explain how each of these commandments

does directly attack the three persons of the Trinity?

Yeah.

So this was a fascinating insight that I actually

got from my husband because he was trying to find a quick way

for me to describe all of this because it comes up

over and over and over again.

And again, it comes from Percy Shelley, the early 1800s.

So yeah, when you're, obviously, if you have contempt for men,

it's going to be very hard to have a direct relationship

with God the Father because you're not going to trust men.

This second part would be promiscuity.

Well, if you're promiscuous, you could not

honouring your body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

And then the third way would be, obviously, the occult,

which is really a violation of the authority of Christ

as King and Savior of the world.

Instead, you're really buying into something

that is supposed to be at odds with his power and his kingdom.

So I think it's fascinating to see those are the three things

because they may get incredibly difficult to then

reestablish a relationship with God

because the fact that you've gone after these very specific ways

that we're embodying souls that are able to be

in relationship with the Trinity.

Yeah, I think it's really, it's kind of devastating

when you start seeing just how targeted Christianity

has been by the feminists in that very, the mechanics.

And not just the general idea, but in the very mechanics

of what it means to believe in the Trinity.

Yes, can you explain a little bit more

about the occult aspect of this?

Because, again, if my Instagram is any indication,

there are a lot of self-described feminist Christian women

who are not blatantly into this witchy occult stuff.

They're just posting girl empowerment memes

and think that their career is more fulfilling the motherhood.

And then, by all accounts, it stops there.

So what would you say to women who maybe would self-identify

as both feminists and Christians who say, yeah,

this doesn't apply to me because I'm not into tarot cards.

And I don't do palm rings.

And I don't dabble in anything of the occult stuff.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that you can sort of

bracket out the occult in a certain respect

because I think there are so many women that do believe that.

And actually, that was kind of one of the things that I've

tried to tone down discussion of that,

certainly in the last book, The End of Woman,

because I just thought, this isn't really as important

as these other philosophical ideas

the way in which we've been brainwashed.

And this is why, in the end of Woman 2,

I talk a lot about the communist connection

and this idea of the prioritization of work.

And so I think that's actually the bigger piece is,

Betty Friedan, we know there's a ton of documentation.

There's actually a book written by her friend, David Horowitz,

I think is his name, about Betty Friedan

and her connection with communism and this idea

of getting women out of the home to do productive work

because the communist had decided

that motherhood was not productive work.

So she uses all these really amazing psychological tactics,

things like, you know, women's fear of missing out.

And, you know, again, the denigration of the home,

she calls it the comfortable concentration camp.

And so she's trying to denigrate that

to get women out into the workforce

so that to promote the communist revolution.

So I think this is, you know, the problem isn't so much

for Christians necessarily on the occult level.

It is exactly what you described.

It's on the work level and this level of autonomy

and the prioritization of work over the much more important elements

of faith and family.

So I think that that's, you know, that,

so for the woman that you've just described,

that's really the key issue because in a certain respect,

it's bought in sort of through the back door

communist principles, which are obviously not

in any way congruent with Christianity.

Either this idea of, you know, constantly,

even that language of empowerment, you know,

that that sort of implies that women were not in power

and gets back to that language of victimhood

or victimization where women are automatically victims

because they're female and men are the victimizers

with the pressure pressures because they're male,

which is absolutely, you know, the language of marks

that's been twisted through critical theory and whatnot.

So I think there's a lot more going on than people realize

that it's, you know, that there's,

there it's kind of language that's very loaded

with a lot of communist and Marxist concepts

that we sort of buy into at our peril

and I think that's really what we're seeing, you know,

so many of the problems in the culture today

is because we've become very communists

by focusing on work and the denigration of the home

and we've really allowed this to proliferate

because we don't understand the importance of the home.

So I think that's hopefully that speaks a little bit

more directly to that and, you know, aside from the occult,

like even if you're not involved with the occult,

if you're still involved in this language

where women are victims and therefore entitled

to something and men are therefore oppressors

and not entitled to something, you know,

this is where you get into DEI and all kinds of issues

about merit and the way in which we use

structured societies such that the family can fundamentally

flourish instead of what we're seeing today.

Right, right.

Yeah, well, and I guess, you know, even if you're not

into astrology or even if you're not practicing

any of these, you know, woohoo kind of out there things

occult things, you can't get away from the origin

of feminism being rooted in the occult.

And you also, it makes me think of the garden again,

like, you know, when, when Adam and Eve sin

and after the fall, you know, they're told,

or Eve is told, your desire will be for your husband

and he will rule over you.

And just this like this sort of friction between the sexes

and like the way that women try to dominate men

and try to take over men's roles.

And I mean, that is just, that's been ongoing since the garden.

And, you know, it's a sin.

And so in that way, it is demonic.

I mean, it's from the enemy.

It's not, it's not Christian.

And so even if you're not involved, it's still demonic.

I think that's such a great point too.

And I, you know, I, I think that whole element really,

I mean, feminism fundamentally is based on power and control.

And so if there's a situation where a woman, you know,

fundamentally will says, I will not serve,

even though we know that, that God has set up the hierarchy,

set up the whole Christian order in a certain respect.

No, this isn't, isn't tyranny.

This isn't some sort of like men have authority, you know,

every man who has authority over every woman, you know,

there are, there's a, after 2000 years,

we have a very beautiful understanding of what this means

and that this order that God has created.

And it's, and I think that that's one of the things

that gets so tiresome is just sort of the sense of like,

okay, this is not what, you know,

I have to explain over and over again what I don't mean.

You know, I don't mean that men are, are tyrants and, you know,

on and on.

So I think that that's really where we have a lot of work to do

is just in terms of helping people understand the subtlety of it.

And also the fear that women have in terms of,

of, first of all, recognizing that we're not meant

to be just like another mother to our husbands

that there's a real order there.

And I think that, you know, one of the things that I think

is incredibly attractive and men and having been around a lot

of seminarians and men who are going to be priests,

you always see there's women around them.

And some of it's because they're comfortable with them,

but there's also this element of,

there's something very attractive about men

who really want to hear God's heart.

They really are at men after pursuing with, you know,

making every sacrifice to really know what God wants.

And I think that that's an important thing

we have to communicate to men and to women too.

It's just that understanding of,

we've got to stop fudging this and allowing women just to take over

because it's a lot easier to do that than to fight and vice versa

that we have to start really holding people accountable

for what it is that their responsibilities are.

And for women to stop taking over what men are meant to do

and, you know, vice versa, we don't have the last need

or, you know, submissive men.

So I think that even, you know,

having further conversations about this

can be incredibly helpful and fruitful,

even just in our daily lives with friends

and, you know, Bible studies and looking at the way

other people have lived this well

can be really instructive and help us sort of fill out

that moral imagination of how this is supposed to look

instead of always defaulting back into this, you know,

oh, she's a doormat or she's the empowered overlord of a one.

You know, we have, like, there's a lot more beauty and nuance

in the middle of that that I think we need to start looking

out more carefully and with, you know, a lot more precision.

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan Morgan,

which is America's largest injury law firm.

That's pretty awesome.

I think I saw Billboard years recently

that said 20 billion won.

20 billion is insane number.

Yeah, 20 billion recovered.

It's actually, I think, somewhere in North,

probably closer to 22, 23 after this year.

And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows.

So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger

and bigger as time goes on.

Awesome.

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

What would I do if I got into an accident?

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law.

It's pound five, two, nine from your cell phone.

We are always open.

Our call center is always waiting to take your call.

24, seven, three, sixty five.

Wow, Dan Morgan.

From Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm.

Thanks for coming by the show.

Thanks for having me.

Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

I think your most recent answer kind of gets to this.

But how do you think that feminism specifically

has harmed Christian marriages?

And maybe sort of a sister question to that is,

how can husbands help their wives not to fall

into the traps of feminism?

Because even women who are married can so often

get sucked into these algorithms or sucked into group chats

or wine mom culture or whatever it is

where it's the norm to gossip about your husband.

And it's the norm to tell each other that, you know,

you can have it all.

And, you know, I mean, there's so much bad messaging

that comes from woman to woman.

And even to married women who have children.

So not only how has feminism harmed Christian marriages,

but also how can husbands help their wives

not to be swept into this,

short of telling them to, you know,

encouraging them to log off and get off social media.

Because I think that's a start, but how else?

Yeah, no, that's really huge.

I mean, I think part of that is just first really understanding

just how manipulated we are on an emotional level

and bombarded by this kind of content all the time.

You really picky about who it is that you follow,

what it is that you watch, how you spend your time.

That's one thing.

Obviously filling up, you know,

having a regular regime of prayer and of silence,

I think those are incredibly important.

And really understanding just how to kind of process

your emotions like, especially when you feel provoked

and angry about something like, okay,

what's really behind that?

Who's, where's that coming from?

Is that the voice of God, you know,

learning how to discern those are really important things?

And I think women, you know, we need to get back to this place

where we become steady.

There's something so compelling about women

that are steady under pressure,

or they're steady under, you know, when the gossip starts,

there's something really powerful

while the woman that says and say anything.

You know, so that is the other piece

is really understanding female steadiness.

We have the vice of, we have an attraction to the vice

of both envy and distraction.

And that means that the opposing virtue is not envy,

not comparing ourselves to others,

but also being able to sort of be peaceful

in the midst of turmoil.

So I think that those are important pieces.

Obviously our husbands can help us dramatically

in terms of, you know, couples prying together,

families prying together, reading the Bible together,

you know, making your life focused more around Christ

and, you know, what we know builds up culture.

And just having frank conversations, you know,

one of the things that I know as a woman

that I've really come to value is do people know

that they can disagree with me?

And this is something that I cannot say in every era

in my life, I'm good at this yet.

I'm still working on this a lot

because I think all of us are really recovering feminists

in so many ways.

We've been so ingrained in us,

but I think that's an important thing too

is do I have the humility just to listen

and just, you know, let other people express their views

and take them on and change, you know, accordingly?

So that's important.

And then I think more than anything now

it goes back to that idea of what's local,

loving what is local, loving your colleagues

the best you can, being present to them,

meeting their needs, loving your children,

loving your spouse, prioritizing those needs.

And, you know, it's amazing how even counter-cultural

it is to say we should really prioritize

the needs of our husbands and yet, you know,

what could be more basic?

Who's closer to you, you know,

and even just recognizing what happens

when we love others better, they're able to love us better

and just the goodness that then kind of comes springs,

you know, the fruit, the springs from that

is really important too.

So, anyway, I could probably keep talking about this

in terms of specifics, but I think, you know,

these aren't hard things.

It's just a matter of kind of unplugging

from what it is that we've grown used to

and really recognizing the way those things

are manipulating us and using us for ends

that are not at all Christian.

Yes, yes.

I'm sure there's a lot of overlap here,

but just a slightly different angle

on kind of the same question.

Let's say there's a woman listening to this

who is thinking, I'm a Christian

and I would have identified as a feminist,

but I'm tracking with you.

I'm seeing that this is not really compatible.

What are some concrete steps that she can take

to exit this sort of, you know,

because feminism truly is like the water

that women swim in.

It's so pervasive, it colors everything.

So, what are some concrete steps women can take

to sort of deprogram their minds

or retrain their minds, you know,

taking every thought captive to obey Christ

to get away from these practices

that are inherently anti-man, anti-god, whatever,

and to really like get back and be informed

in their womanhood by a biblical worldview.

Yeah.

Well, one of the things I do in the book,

and of course, you know, my first suggestion

is read the book, but something like it.

But one of the things I do in the book

is look at really the role of men in a positive way.

I think this is something that's been completely absent.

You know, our commercials are devaluing men,

denigrating men, making them look like idiots, you know,

TV shows on and on.

But really to start seeing what it is,

what is the value that comes with a patriarchy and hierarchy?

And you know, one of the things that's amazing

is just to see like the way the military functions.

And we value this in corporate America

because women are in that hierarchy.

So we understand how it works and in the military obviously.

But if you can just see the way that men mobilizing

and moving out in smaller groups,

but every person, every man in that group

has an important role to play.

And I think this is one of the best gifts that men have.

The women don't always have is that they don't toss people aside

in those dynamics because they realize everybody

has something to contribute.

So understanding that it's important,

understanding even the role that men play in society,

like every patriarchy that has ever existed

ends up being ghettoized and losing its wealth.

Because men and fathers are the ones who are like,

they're the guardians of like a hydraulic dam.

They hold in the gifts of the children

until the children are ready to use those gifts,

like their sexuality, or they're the ones that are saying,

okay, it's time for you to leave the nest.

You know, you're ready.

You know, especially sons showing them,

you know, there were all those rights of passage

that used to happen, giving them responsibility,

giving them experiences where they can actually fail

that they had to rise the occasion to succeed in.

So I think, you know, aside from the things

that I've already said about social media and our emotions,

I think the biggest thing is to really start seeing

because the patriarchy is very invisible in our culture.

We don't value it until things go wrong.

Or until, you know, my own case when I,

we had an edition built on our home

and I was like, there's all men here.

We're all the women who are putting, you know,

doing the roof and I think they showed up

when they did the painting and then when they cleaned up

at the end, but otherwise it was all men

pouring the concrete and whatnot.

So I think that could be really worthwhile thing to do.

And, you know, the other thing too

is really understand the way in which men love women.

This is something I've never been able to do well

because it requires, I could probably do it with poetry,

but I think, you know, when the way men talk about women

when they don't know that they're listening,

for example, poetry or music lyrics,

you get a real sense, I think of what it is

that men value about women.

And it's usually not because she's bossy, nagging

and, you know, in a pantsuit.

Like, there's something much more tender and frail

and there's something about the way in which women feel,

like, allow men to feel that they're home

and they're safe and they're cared for.

You know, that those are important things, I think,

for us to realize that instead of sort of feeling like

we need to check these boxes of, you know,

our own prowess and skill set, we need to really look at,

what is it that we are?

How is it that we're receiving others around us

and being in relationship in a healthy way

with the men in our lives?

I think that's another important aspect of it.

Yes, that's such a good point about the music

and the poetry and just that men, women's differences

is actually what makes things work.

I think the platitude, you know, diversity of art,

diversity is our strength is such garbage

until it comes to, until it comes from marriage

and then I think sometimes that's exactly right.

That's what makes, that's what makes things work

is that we're different.

So everybody should read Carrie's new book,

something wicked, you can get it on Amazon,

but Carrie, I imagine there are better places

people could buy it, where can they buy it?

Yeah, if you want to sign copy,

you can get it at my own website theologyofhome.com

or the publisher, SophiaInstitute.org

is SophiaInstitute Press is the publisher.

So that's great.

And where can people follow you?

Where can they find you?

Best places Instagram or theologyofhome.com

and I also have my own website, carrygress.com.

Awesome, Carrie, I had such an awesome time talking to you.

Thank you for writing this book.

Thank you for making time to chat with me about it.

I'm so excited for all the people

who are going to buy the book now

because they will get to hear all the great messaging as well.

So thanks so much for your time.

Thank you, my pleasure.

Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode

of The Kylie Cast.

If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe

wherever you get your podcasts.

Leave us a five star review and of course,

go pick up a copy of Carrie's new book,

something wicked, why feminism can't be fused

with Christianity.

It's such an excellent read.

It's a resource I will definitely be returning to time

and time again.

I will be back next week with more.

So until then, just remember the truth hurts,

but it won't kill you.

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