The Lie You Don’t Know You Believe | Jennie Allen

What's up everybody welcome back to a couple things interviews with Sean and Andrew today we have the one and only Jenny Allen who

It feels like yesterday. She was on our podcast, but it was actually like six years ago

I can't believe that we had our in person first time meeting her in person

It's been so fun to follow her over the last six years and she is a force to be reckoned with of course

Which is crazy because you meet her and she's such a gentle

Wise soul and you're like wow. I love everything about this if you don't know Jenny

She's a Bible teacher a speaker an author

She's the founder of if gathering which has helped millions of women around the world grow in their faith and build deeper community

She's written books like get out of your head find your people untangle your emotions and her most recent book

Which is what we're here to talk about is the lie you don't know you believe

Anyway, she's a great perspective. We'll link more information to her her book and what she's up to down below

She has so much wisdom in this podcast and this conversation telling us about what she's doing to truly just

Change the lives of I would argue millions of people we did end this interview with me and her talking about going to prison

So I really hope and really think you will enjoy this podcast. Please without further ado Jenny Allen

Jenny Allen welcome to the show

Y'all fun to be here welcome to Nashville. I know I love it. I tell her I say I swore she lived here

But I think that's just all the Christian writers. Yeah, everybody does everybody's here now

Yeah, I was reflecting on our conversation that we had with you six years ago

It was six years ago. Did you look that up? That is crazy. It's crazy. It feels like two years ago

I know it does feel like two years ago

That is wild so y'all just had like a baby. We just had our second baby when we talked to you

And then now we have our youngest is two years old and that's our third kid

But I wanted to

Thank you because in that interview you talked about how

Raising kids is essentially raising your best friends if you do it right

Friends yeah, but we're at this phase now. We're parenting is so fun because we're starting to see that

And you're like, oh my gosh. These are the only people who want to hang out with I know true

And so I was I was remembering that and not a lot of people paint that picture of parenting

So thank you for inspiring that in us, but yeah, I love that

I say we're right on the cusp of such a change right now because our youngest is two and a half and

We're out of like the infant phase can say y'all made it. We made it

Yeah, you get that baby to three you get that baby

I know but even seeing your daughter here. I've I

I'm so excited and nervous for like the future of yeah, how do I preserve this relationship?

And it's I just love I love seeing my their daughter relationships because my little girl is my best friend

Yeah, that's so sweet and I will just say this every season of parenting

While every season has its challenges. I feel like I love the next season more than the last

And I wish somebody had told me that because you spend a lot of time with that first born dreading

dreading the next dreading for them to go to kindergarten dreading for them to go to high school dreading them driving dreading

College, you know, you just you spend a lot of time afraid of the future

And I mean because

You know, we're in their lives regularly. It just feels like it's just been better and better and I I wish I hadn't wasted energy on

Feeling afraid or dreading because it really has been fine. And let me be honest some of them have been punks at times

One of my favorite things I remember this from our interview and even now is I feel like

And this is almost sad to say but you're one of the few people who actually painted parenting and marriage and stuff in such a positive light

I feel like the world always is like oh, you're gonna lose your social life

You're gonna like a grieve every phase. It's gonna be really hard and and you I remember that when we had just had our second

You're like it's so beautiful and it's like such a gift and it gets better and it gave me so much hope

But why do you think you have such a different perspective from the narrative of the culture?

That's so interesting. I do think it's hard. I think part of it is

Choosing to see the good and to believe the best right so I I'm someone who I call myself a

Realistic optimist so I know the truth. I know the heart. I can see it happening right before my eyes

But I think I always pictured who they were becoming instead of who they were

And I still have to do that sometimes because they're in process and I think

The other thing I would say is we did not care what we appeared to be

And that took a lot of pressure off our kids and it took a lot of pressure off of us

So when they would get in big trouble we lived in a community where everybody knew everything and everything that happened and

And and my kids would get in trouble and things would happen and I just remember

You know them coming home. I remember my son one time coming home and just saying I don't care like what anybody else thinks

Are you are you okay and what do we need to do about about you right now and

I just think that it allowed us to stay in the day and it allowed us to not

Be as concerned about our reputation

It allowed us just to have grace for them to mess up and one thing my kids they've done a lot of counseling and needed it right

Like so I don't want to act like we've had this perfect family and perfect life

And the older ones have come my voices out. Sorry. Everybody knows it's hard to listen

Um, and so my older ones would come to me and say

Things like mom, you know

This is what I've learned like was hard about being your kid or dad, you know, this is what was hard

and in those moments

I've just owned it and been sorry and we're closer for it

And then also

One of the things they said in counseling was just they had a family that you could mess up and they saw us mess up and they saw us apologize

And so I think just having

I

Common understanding that we're all going to mess up. We're all going to hurt each other

And we're always going to work it out and we're never going to give up on each other and we're never going to quit each other

I think that gave our kids a lot of peace and a lot of security

They've several of them have said things like one of the greatest things you did as a parent was apologize

And I think they meant that for themselves not just that we were reconciled

But that they saw we could mess up too like because we messed up they could mess up

And so that yeah, I would say that's why I've enjoyed it is I haven't been thinking about everybody else

But they think and I haven't been thinking about the future. I've been pretty present

And I mean as you know

Certain life stages that's all you can do literally like just get through the day

And and so it's been yeah, it's just been fun and I am blessed with the gift of hindsight now

And so I can look back did I feel that way you didn't know me when I had a two and a four and a six year old

Did I feel that way then I don't think so I was scared about the future

But I can look back and go man that was that was fun

And and I think our kids would say like

There was a lot of grace in our house

Speaking of kids we're here to talk about your new book the lie you don't know you believe

I believe it was inspired by an interaction with one of your daughters. Is that right?

Yeah, so my daughter Kate

Yeah, we're at an airport together in Atlanta and she's sitting across

Table for me and both of my girls are just right awesome lights. I'm gonna brag for a minute

They are gifted they love God my older daughter just married the most amazing man. She's a photographer does really well

Just in every category of her life is a success and

And she's sitting there telling me I feel broken I feel defective

And just crying about it and I

It made me so sad and I felt angry not her

But just that she had believed this line. I wanted her to not feel that way anymore

And then I realized oh gosh like what she's saying is the same way I feel

still at times and

And I it broke my heart and I just I wondered it made me question so many things

Because I thought okay is this generational because we weren't parents who

Were super critical. I mean we just didn't we were like, you know great you came in 21st. Yeah

You know that was that was kind of our vibe and so we just

Care about grades like that we just weren't that family that needed everybody to hit a mark to be loved and accepted and all that

It's all like where did she get this like where did she pick this up and I

And I really feel like it was just from watching me live

It wasn't what I was saying to her it was that she saw me

Striving for the next thing and and feeling like I had to hit a mark and and you pick that up

Just watching it, you know, and so I think that set me on a course of

Curiosity of just gosh is this generational like do we all believe a core lie

That we don't even know we believe because when I began as any parent would to preach at her and say that is not true

And and don't you know how unbelievable you are once I started in on that she's like stop it

You're my mom you're supposed to feel that way like this doesn't count

And I was like oh my gosh, she's defending this thing like this lie that has built

You know to be something big in her life. She's defending it. She won't even hear a counter argument

That it's not true. She really believes this truth

So I think that just broke my heart and I thought gosh are we all just sitting here with this low grade fever?

Of this lie that we don't even know

We're believing

How does believing affect our day-to-day?

so

Every part of life. So your relationships. I want you to picture

So so let me start with saying this the three

common lies to all the humans

In earth on earth are number one. I'm helpless. I'm unlovable and I am worthless

Pause real quick. Oh my gosh

Oh my gosh

Does it stink doesn't get oh they smell so bad. Oh, thank you. No, they don't they don't yet. Oh, okay

Hold up. I thought it was like it's got

Have you ever smelled the stink bug? Oh, it is one of the worst smell. It's not like a skunk

It's it's just a horrible smell never smell one

Well, look at it go watch out

Don't kill it. Don't kill it. Okay, three lies. Okay, so let me start by just kind of giving the groundwork for what we're gonna talk about so

Psych 101 and you know kind of human nature would tell us that there's three lies

There's three lies fundamentally that we all believe so the first one is I'm worthless

The second one is I'm unlovable and the third is I'm helpless and

I don't think any of us consciously think any of those lines in our head

But let me give you some examples

So I am worthless

There is always a mark and you're always trying to hit it and you feel like if you could hit it

Then you'd finally feel like okay, then I've arrived and the problem is it keeps moving

You know it keeps moving and moving and so I'm unlovable and you feel like if you could just hit it

Then you would be accepted then you would be okay

I'm unlovable you feel like you need approval from people you're trying to get people to affirm you

You want to be loved and accepted and all of us want that

But it becomes almost like a drug and it feels like it's really hard on your relationships

And you feel like you're always disappointed in people you feel like you just can't

You know quite get everybody on board

To before you and to love you and it's such a whole like all of these create really a big chasm

And we can feel all of these but most of us have a core one. I'm helpless

Often that lie is a core lie for someone that maybe has been through abuse or as a child found out devastating news that they couldn't control

And so they learned early on like gosh, there's a lot about life. I can't control and at some point they just feel

Resigned or they try extra hard to control everything and so these core lies really go on to shape our identity

And I would say this is what's fun to talk about in the framework of parenting because

Often these lies we start believing them from a young age and there's usually a moment in fact

I'll ask people I did this morning when I spoke to a group of people

How old were you when you believe that lie?

Because I can tell you right now the first time I've ever believed I was worthless

Which is mine and was also my daughters that day

Is I was 12 years old and my dad pulled me on his lap and was just so sweet talking about middle school and

Different categories in my life boys and grades and all these things

But I heard and interpreted it to mean I want you to hit these marks and all these categories

And that was just the first time I was like, oh, okay, this is how the world is and I've got to hit the mark

to be accepted and

And I created you know that in my own mind

So it wasn't it wasn't an ill meaning thing it can come from anywhere

Come from something small it can come from something really big in your life

But then it kind of plants itself in your head and then decades later

It's like gosh

He'll insecure. I feel anxious all the time. I feel like my relationships aren't working

I don't know why to your point of the question just

It affects everything in life it affects your parenting your your

Relationship with even like things like alcohol or food like it it affects every part of life and so I really am

I'm very passionate about this because I think

We tend to treat symptoms. We tend to try to pull up weeds when there's a really big root underneath

And when you can pull out that root

And all the weeds come up at once. That's that's awesome. You know that that gives you some hope

So that's what what I hope this is good for

With these lies that are foundational do you believe they're preventable or do you think

Genetically speaking like born into our DNA. We each have a vulnerability

That will expose itself at some point and it's our job to then

Figure out how to pull it up and heal it from a question

Yeah, I mean, I love that y'all are asking that as parents of a six and four and two year old because

I so much of my life is ministering to college students for young adults and

and older and so

For them, it's like almost always they'll point to a moment and it's not an obvious moment

So it's not like you have to be afraid parenting like this is first of all this is like enemy warfare stuff right like this is there's a plan to like

bind us and put us in bondage and all of this and so

You know, this is this is just the world we live in and it's dark and it's twisty and it's hard and I would say

That knowing that's why I am so passionate about this because if you know to look out for it

You can notice it so if you notice you have a kid that is always looking at you

You know wanting to know am I okay? Did I did I hit a mark?

You can know okay, that that might be that kid's tendency

Or if you've got a kid that just

Once affection feels like that you never can give them enough and it's like okay, that might be their tendency

And so it's just speaking the truth over them and and I think you you can't imagine

how much

Just having a ten of

Parents that notice them you know, I think of Dr. Kurt Thompson he says

He says you come into the world looking for someone looking for you and you really never stop

And I just love that line. I think that's all of us right like that's ultimately

Behind all these lies is we're just looking for someone that's looking for us and saying you're okay

I love you see you

And I accept you and you're safe, you know, and we're all craving the same

Things as kids as you know 80-year-olds. It's like we really never

stop and and so are they preventable? I mean, I think we live in a world that creates

Hunger

Because it's never enough and so

I don't know I think I think it's a pretty loud

Let's say it this way. There's a river running in our world right now

And the current is so strong. It's almost impossible to avoid

Comparison avoid believing we're not hitting a mark to avoid rejection betrayal

Feeling helpless in our current state of the world. I mean, yeah

But let me just say some hope before I know we didn't get there

But I see all of it as an invitation

Because the best conversations with my good friends and the points of connection come from this

My relationship with God comes from this like if I can notice it in my own heart

Then it's an imitation for me to go okay something's not right

And I want to share it and I want to know what I can do

And that has just brought some of the best relationships

I love the throughline of all your books, which is last time we talked was for made for people yeah, and

I feel like they're so related where it's like yeah, you know

Me sharing what lie I'm prone to to a friend is is really an invitation to grow the relationship

And then you know, I just love the whole body of work that you have composed so well done

Well, I was just gonna say on that

As a mom to the young ones even listening to this I'm trying to like I feel like I can tell you exactly what each kid's probably tendency is going to be in what they skewed towards

We have very distinct

characteristics in our children, which is so beautiful

um, but I will never forget

When I my vulnerability and insecurity like throughout my

uh career was always like body image issues, and I always that control, but I always remember

uh psychiatrist that I work with said

If the voices in your brain get too loud to where you can't differentiate truth from

lies

um

She said your job then is to find the people around you who you can trust their words

And so what you're when you were saying like made for people and your community having those people that you truly trust

Which is really hard to voice to

but I think

helps

Give you that reassurance of

Actual truth and the more you can kind of hear the truth the secret. Oh my gosh. It really is

I mean, I feel like okay, go back for you and and when you would do that

I mean, that had to be hard for you. It was so hard and it's we all know that we all know we have this

We have the devil in our in our mind that's

feeding us lies and when those lies get really strong and really loud

It can be really hard to drown them out. Yeah, and so my goal with my psychiatrist every week was just like let's see

If we can drown out the voices a little bit more. That's good. I like and it was I would go. Yeah

Yeah, just a little bit more

But I would try to get more people and it was so uncomfortable to tell someone this is what I'm feeling like

This is scary to have them speak truth back to you is so powerful

And it just kind of builds your army

And till you're strong enough to kind of handle it on your own, which I don't think we ever are

I don't think we're supposed to be yeah, it's a gift to need each other and we don't have a lot of need for each other in our culture

But this morning I spoke at a an event with about a thousand people and this woman

They were yelling out like the lies that they believed and a woman up front was like I believe I'm unlovable and

And I asked her first. I was like do you are you a brave person and she was like yes

I was like would you come up here and all I did was face her to the crowd and this is a crowd that works together and all those each other

And I said it so she just shared she's unlovable

I want everybody in the room to just say what they see in her

And I mean the whole room erupted by saying the most beautiful unbelievably honoring things a lot of them know her

and she's

Teary and she's

Shakey, I'm like, I don't think you were this brave

Yeah, I really overwhelmed her

But the whole room two things happened one thing happened for her which was

Maybe this isn't true. Like maybe this thought I always have isn't true

And for the room it was so obviously on true. Mm-hmm. It was so obviously on true

And it made them question their own

Lie too because when they're thinking that's so

Not true about someone else then it kind of makes you go. Well, maybe mine isn't true either

And I think that only can happen in community. Mm-hmm. Like what they did for her today

was

Powerful like it it jars and jostles that lie that's been there really

Comfortably for a long long time

But it also kind of jared their own because it was like ah

You know, maybe maybe mine's not true either something you speak about a lot and her is that idea of like getting out of your own head

So that makes me think when you start pouring into others

You start you stop thinking about yourself and like ruminating on the bad thoughts

And it's like when you start pouring into others it almost gets reciprocated

And it's just like it's how it should be. It's how it should be

And I do I think like one of the things I would say that's changed so much in me over the years

So I love what your therapist said that that there's

You know at some point

We're just trying to

To get the lies out more but just a little bit more. I love that line

And that is kind of what it's like because you're you're in process and these have really dug deep roots

in our lives and in our minds

but

If I look back at my mind 15 years ago and what I thought about it totally

I thought about myself my failures when I walked in a room

I thought about my insecurities like that was my brain and

And if I think about my brain now, it's so much more full of other people and

And I think that that is freedom

I think it really is like Timothy Keller has a book called the the freedom of self-forgetfulness

I was called the freedom of self-forgetfulness

And

Man, that's a good line. Right. Just that. It's like the book preaches. Just the title right there. Yeah

Sean, which of those three lies the worthless and it's unlovable helpless. Would you say you're prone to um

All of them. I'm an overthinker. I'm anxious. So like all of them, but I would say my whole life

Like the milestone

moments in my life were always worthless

Like the I'm worthless because everything for me was always

Another get to another milestone get to another metal career stage level

Okay, let's because everybody's fascinated by this right now that you would ever feel that way

So let's just go to your first goal because that's the

You know epitome. Mm-hmm. What did it feel like and how fast was it disappointing? Oh, I mean immediately wow

But I

My story was very very beautiful because I had a coach who could care less about metals

And he taught that from day one. Awesome. Oh, it was weird. It was the greatest gift of my life

Because even in this is like a whole different conversation

But even standing on a gold medal podium at the Olympics

We were both giggling because we knew it wasn't my best. Wow. So we were both

As a team more proud of a silver medal that I won because it was a better. Yeah

So the metal thing didn't really matter

But I will never forget my like little moment that you were talking about when I signed with an agent for the first time

pressure

It was the first time I had to weigh and I was 12 years old. Oh, no

I had to weigh the monetary value of getting a scholarship versus earning money

And so it was the first time my brain switched towards I have to now succeed

And I have to now make money if I want to go down this college route

Like voluntarily because I was forfeiting the eligibility

And I just I just remember that that was the first time I brain switched to business mode

And 12 I just started trying for what would you say is yours worthless

Yeah, which like I guess in some ways I'm like, okay, well, I guess maybe that's the reason that

You and I would like credit any of our performance to like hey, let's just keep going because it's not you know

And so that maybe that's a positive side effect to a certain extent where it's like

Well, I know. Yeah, that's where I want to ask y'all is

I mean, I live wondering too like there's a lot of the things I'm accomplishing my for the glory of God

Yeah, it's a tough question. I guess, but I mean no, I want to ask you I would say yeah worthlessness and my moment would be

um

As sad as it is, but it's like when when my brother started

Playing football and he was really good, and then he like was discouraged because his college graded in panel like it

Could have yeah, I was like oh shoot now. I need to do this to I don't know like justify or

Correct whatever situation like for him for me, and then it's like not out of that pure motivation of I love football

I love playing the game, you know, I'm saying it shifts a little bit and you feel the pressure

but

But to your point about like

You and your conversation with your dad

It is

Tell me how I shouldn't be discouraged by by being a parent myself. How easily it happened

Yeah, cuz you're like you could be the best parent in the world, and they have just this slight little interaction with somebody who you know

Is that school or a coach with wherever that's right, and you're right

It's not his parents. I can't insulate. I'm like that. You know, I'm like dang. Well, what are we doing then? Yeah

Well, we're teaching them to be human and how to live in a broken world

And I think the greatest gift you can give your kids is just to wrestle in front of them. Especially the older you know based on their age

To be honest like yeah, I struggle without two. I mean with my daughter Kate. It's like dang it like

You got that from me. It's like we talk about it. It's not something like oh

Let's fix this for you. It's it's let's lean into this together because I struggle with that too

You know, and I just think we're all struggling our way home

You know, it's not it's not clean. It's not

Easy. It's messy and that gives me a lot of hope. There's a great book

That's one of the most famous books in the world if you've never heard of it. It's okay

You are under a rock, but it was called outside of the Bible. I think it's sold like next

Next is after the Bible throughout history. It's it's an old book and it's a fable. It's called

pilgrims progress and

I cannot tell you how deeply that book has ministered to me because

It's this guy ironically or metaphorically named Christian

And he goes through his life and he actually has faith early in the book. So he trust Jesus. He knows God

and then he sets out on his journey his life

and

He falls into a pit and it's he's in tar and he can't get out

You know, and then he gets locked in a castle and he had the key the whole time

But he didn't know it and he was there forever

And then he goes to this amusement park and he gets addicted to many things and he's he's there

You know, and I can't tell you how great obviously that book has been for so many people's life

But for me, I just I think I learned somewhere that everything is supposed to go up into the right

And that that was how it's supposed to go if it doesn't go that way that there's trouble

But that book is such a better reflection of how it's going to go for your kids

And how it's going to go for all of us right and

And I think what you want is for them to never feel alone

So they are going to go in the pit. They're going to believe a lie. They are going to

You know at times be addicted to

Affirmation or or worse and and what you know is like I'm not going anywhere

Like the power of just not leaving the room no matter what

That is probably one of the most healing things in my life

Is that I have people that don't leave the room and won't no matter what

And so I think that's deep down our our kids fear is that

At some point they could do something

For say something or not hit a mark and we'd be gone or we wouldn't love them in the same way

And I think that's the best thing you can do for them is just be like

Nope, you can't ever you can't ever lose it like I'm here forever and that's a gift

Yeah, it's beautiful. It's actually something I

Had said to all three of my children since the day they were born like rocking them to sleep

But I will say to them every night it said no matter what you do no matter who you are

I will always love you

Yeah, and there's nothing that could ever change that and God will always love you

and

We I say it more now because we're getting into those ages where some

Not big life mistakes because I don't think that's possible at age yet

But they're figuring out they're so bad. Oh, yeah, I'll do. Yeah

There are some big things happening where I'm like remind like I remind you like we can be frustrated

We can be mad we can be disappointed but we that never changes. Yeah, I still love you more than anything in the whole

Yeah, and I always well

magic, but I think something else that I was thinking about as you were saying that

I do think we live in like the messiest time of yeah of history

I mean with all social media and the voices

Such a hard time to raise kids. Yeah, but I also think we live in a time where we

are more comfortable than ever before

invoicing our vulnerabilities and our weaknesses and bringing them to the forfeit

I do think before like the generations above us

Never admitted wrongdoing like it was always I I'm not gonna go to a therapist. I'm not gonna like I

I am strong. I'm like there's no weakness here

And I think we've over corrected to a certain extent, but also we've corrected to the point where

Even our six-year-old will bring to us. She's like I'm feeling

Not confident today. Oh and to have that awareness

Yes, it's so beautiful and I do think it's the only thing that might save us in this over opinionated world is having that ability to say

I am affected today. Yeah, by whatever it is and I need your support

Outside of your psychiatrist risk going back to little Sean

Did you share it with your parents did you like body struggle?

Or body image issues anything like that? No, I was stereotypical. I held it in. I will do everything on my own

I've been that way till I was just about a few years ago. Yeah, I I did it until I met this guy

And he's the one who yeah, look at me. He's super

What a vulnerable. Yeah, you tell

Like his face you can just see it. You're just so like

Philosophical everything is like yeah, but why but why would you do that? He didn't let it be he wanted to know

That's so sweet. What does that make you feel that you kind of brought that out in her that's so sweet

I think we're a good team. We're great. Yeah, I love living life with her

I am curious though, so back to the question. Well, no, no

I mean to your point about the awareness and talking about it is the is a goal to just

Be aware of the lie that I'm believing he does a long way

But no the goal is to believe the truth, but but I think learning the lie

Was decades long? Mm-hmm possibly hopefully some people listening it it hasn't been but

Often it is decades long so learning the truth and the truth is big the truth isn't a Bible verse or

A compliment about you like the truth is your security and who you are

Because of God. It's it's the security of

Who God is and how he loves you the truth is so big. It's vast, you know, I often say

Truth is a person in a place

We think it's a verse. We think it's something that you know and understand it once you understand it then you're fixed

And I wish or that easy, but

But you know Jesus said I'm the way the truth and the life

And so he is truth like knowing him and having a relationship with him is part of that healing and

And I say it's a place because I think the kingdom of this world

Which the Bible calls it

Which is an interesting phrase and any talks about the prince of this world as well, which is the enemy

And so there's this whole mentality and even if you don't believe in God and even if you think I sound crazy

I would just say doesn't it feel like

There's something underneath all this darkness like doesn't it feel almost strategic and

And I would say most people are like yeah, it feels like there's an agenda like there's something and I would just say

Yeah, there's evil at work and it has a plan

And it wants deeply for you to be in bondage for all your life and so the goal for sure

It's freedom and freedom comes from understanding truth and in scripture

It says in John that you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. So that's a promise

But I would say we read that verse and we think truth is just one verse

It's like no, it's it's a whole way of thinking and living and so the place that it is is the kingdom of God

And you can go there anytime and you can you can in your own mind go

I don't have to measure up, you know, like this these weeks for me is

You know pressure sell books, you know, there's a standard now like I'm hitting your times several times

And so it's like

You know my publisher would love that all the people I work with my team. They would love that. I would love that

And I also know that that is not the game that I'm playing for and I can go in my own mind and go

Okay, in the kingdom of God. Does it matter? No

What matters that I am loved. I'm safe. I'm secure and I'm obeying God and

And that feels like enough like was this obedience for me? Yes

and

Is he already delighted in me? Yes, and that is a new way of living and thinking. That's really free

And we don't have to you know over here. Yeah, you got to hit the mark

Over here in this kingdom in the world. You've got to

Make sure everybody likes you. You got to protect yourself from all the

You've all in the heart and

It's just really exhausting

That's such a funny perspective because what we're about to come out with our first book

Used just saying I've hit the New York Times bestseller list several times and now they're just standard

It's like it's the classic it's the classic case of like you know silver's never nine

Once you hit I mean it's it's gonna keep going nature and I think you know

I mean sure people listening to us are like poor them

You know poor poor

That'll listen in New York time. I would just say

If if you're going when I can't hit the mark that I even said I would say

Don't worry like you said immediately. It didn't feel great. I'm like that's right like that's how you we think it's gonna feel better

But it never feels as good as we hope when it comes to the

The lot moving line of like ambition

How do you balance ambition and faith and worth

Because I do think ambition is wonderful and we were intended to have ambition to yeah to give back to this world

But where do you draw the line of

What's too much versus what's biblical versus

What does give back to God and why is not yeah

I read a great book when I was in my 20s called holy ambition

And it's my chipping room and it's a great book. I wouldn't encourage anybody to get it

It really shifted my mindset on this that he really built us to dream dreams

And to set goals and to be driven all of that is good. It's just what's your end game, you know, and I think

For me

That's everything like when my endgame is helping others

Then guess what like

This week I got to share this message with an 18-year-old girl who cried and she said you know what all my life

I felt like my dad loves my older sister more than me

She said that in front of her friends and it was so brave

And she felt all of their love and and their connection

And she by the end was laughing and smiling and just felt I think relief to say it out loud

It helped her you know, and I'm like okay

Like that those are the that's the game. I'm in you know, I'm not in the game of

Of numbers, and I can't control that anyway, right? And so

I think when you know your endgame then you can feel

The piece

That that comes with did I obey that I do what I was supposed to do yeah

But I love I think God loves our big dreams and our crazy stuff

I just think he's like seek you first the kingdom of God

All these other things are gonna be added to you

And so you know, I always use the phrase the glory of God and the good of people like is what we're doing is is the end

Yet goal of what we're doing the glory of God and it good of people

And that just helps kind of sift away what shouldn't be there as you've I mean you are

Global icon. I mean the mission I believe of

Events like the gather 25 event that you do which is 25 hours of prayers. All right. Yeah is to unite the global church

Which is a massive ambition

Yeah, have you found that as you've grown

Your ambition or your platform or influence

Have the lies also grown or have they you know because you think it be

So ironic like this book it brought out all of my 12-year-old self like it was

I mean obviously it was probably strategic for the on the enemies part. I I've never

felt

more inadequate and

Scared

Mm-hmm in this last year of my life and I've never

Seeing God do more through my life

Which is I mean I don't even know what to do without theologically yeah, so when you confront a lie what what's your

Which your next step what's the path forward? So one thing I mean you mentioned it earlier like being aware of it is

More power than you think

Because most people will never notice at all their lives

So it's a big moment when someone's like like today a guy walked up to me after I spoke and he was weeping

He's in his probably young forties

He was crying uncontrollably nothing gets me like a guy of 40 something crying, you know and I

I'm like, what is it man? And he was like I believed I'm worthless my entire life

And I mean he's just heave ho crying and I say to him okay

You know

What shifts and and we prayed I mean to me it is there's a few things first to know that like I don't know if he ever

Realized it before today. I don't know if he'd ever

I know he's never said those words out loud till today. You could tell just the way he

reacted and

So that really is the beginning of something and then what you do with that is you tell somebody

You say it out loud and I say it out loud often so

You know, I say it out loud to my girlfriends like I'll start a

You know a moment when we're hanging out together and go okay guys help me here because I think I might be

I might be processing this or I might be hurt about this

Because of the lie I believe so I'll use it in my language to share

What I'm struggling with or what I'm going through and that you can't believe how powerful that is because it gives freedom for everybody else to go

Yeah, okay, maybe it gives grace and freedom because maybe

I'm doing this thing out of a lie. I've been believing. I think

Almost everything we do is

Came from something when we were five or 12 years old and then I really believe this is spiritual

And so I'm a big believer in bold prayer and letting people pray for you and a friend did this for me this morning

She sent me a prayer. I mean ironically for my voice

She sent me a prayer for any way the enemy is is

Attacking me right now, and I mean it was so powerful and I just read it out loud and

I would just say John Eldridge has great prayers if you're like where would I begin John Eldridge on his app wild at heart

You can download there's a section called prayers and they're really crazy or really bold

They're very spiritual if you're not used to praying like that, but

But they're helpful and I really do believe it's it's breaking the agreement we've made to use John's language

It's breaking the agreement we've made with

With the lie saying no more like I'm not going to continue to agree

With this anymore

So I had a mentor years ago who had us put together

Like an identity statement which I'd never never like written down who Andrew is past my resume

And I didn't know what else to do except for like

Look at what the Bible says about me which is like which is it actually crazy encouraging process

It's like I don't know why you wouldn't want to buy in to that or like believe that where you're like okay, they more than conquer

The god of the universe to create it all this made me for such a time as this you're like yeah, okay

Like he wrote that about everybody. Yes, but also about me specifically, right?

I'm curious do you view it like is it a

Is it a choice like uh absolutely? Yeah, yes, I mean I love what you're saying because

It is a choice we can we can believe whatever we want to believe right we all know that is true

And so once you recognize it as

Something unhealthy that has been there that it's a belief system right and you can dismantle it the same way it got built

So oftentimes a lie is built with

With the whisper of something and then it grows with evidence because then somebody will say something and somebody else will say something

And all of a sudden you're like oh, that's true. That's me like I'm I'm defective like I keep messing things up

That's me

And then gods like actually I made you I prepared good works for you to do in advance that you were gonna do for my glory

all of these ideas that are so fixed and true and solid and not movable

But we yeah, we have to choose to believe him for sure

This is a big question apologies in advance. I love your big questions you I I've been

Such a fan of yours since we last spoke and that's been so cool to see the work that you do the people that you impact

My family members included me included

Who would you say

Your God is who's Jenny Allen's God? How would you how would you describe great question? I might be my favorite question. I've ever gotten

He

Is my best friend he's so safe

He I'm just gonna be really candid here. So I mind I'm trying to mind my theology, but I'm just gonna tell you like how I experience him

He is wild. He he scares me. Well, it's a days. I feel um

I feel like where where where'd you get that like where why are we going here? What are we gonna do next? Um, he feels

He feels adoring

I always have this kind of secret feeling that I'm his favorite and I know that's not

I think I am

He is a he's safe in that he I keep bringing him I mean even last week. I I was in my car

And I was like lord

I will sell anything you want me to sell I will repent of anything you want me to repent of I will

I will give up anything you want me to give up and he's like I want you to give up this in this

I'm like hang okay, that was okay. That wasn't what I was thinking you were gonna say you know, and I just I feel like he

He is kind, but he's also

Strong and he wants he wants he's so

He is so passionate for my freedom. Mm-hmm more than I am for myself

I think about my dad going up who we have a great relationship and I love him and he loves me so much

But like all parents there were holes there, and I think of God is like

I look over at him. I'm like am I your favorite?

Am I the apple of your eye and he's like yeah, yeah, you are kid. Yeah, you're my favorite

And I think that thing that we all are craving is found in him

And I say that story specifically because I that's what I wanted you know

and

I just wanted to walk in the room and be like somebody's favorite. I wanted to walk in the room and be like

I just am so glad you showed up. You didn't have to do anything to do be here. You know, then

And then out of that we've done so much fun things he we've done the brain isn't working

We've done so many fun things together, but it's out of it. It's not

It's not I don't ever feel like any more that he I'm in some disappointment. I feel like

Man he he likes me and loves me so much and if I just sit down in my room today and don't leave it for a long long time

He likes me the same

As if I'm leading a global gathering I really feel that way and I think out of that I've

lived a way more free life

Mm-hmm than what I was living

Thank you. I almost brought me tears. I appreciate that. Thanks. Thanks for asking us. It's good to hear

I could just listen to everything. I'm like just feels good. It feels so good

It's surprising this guy

I just you know, I speak at colleges a lot and this college kid walked up to me a few weeks ago seven foot tall

Tears falling down his face that he what didn't wipe away all these men crying

Well, and so he comes up tears down his face and he was like Jenny

I just didn't know God left me. Oh my God. It was that simple

I was like, oh man, that's a bad thing to miss. Mm-hmm. You know, but it's like everybody's walking around thinking God so disappointed in that

There's been so many thoughts that have helped throughout this, but like

that being one of them of

Why is it so hard to convince people that they don't have to do anything

to be loved

I feel like we we do live in a world in a time where it's like you have to mind your peas and cues and you can't break any rules and

If you break a biblical law, then you'll never be loved again, and it's like

Where did we lose the foundational belief that that is all false? Like he loves us just as we are

Yeah, yeah, and that's where we start

Yeah, I mean Romans a1 there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I love that verse. I

Love that verse. I preach that verse a lot. I think

That has not shaped the church. I think you know

the the right answer is

The reality of Jesus is required, right? Like we we don't want God to be a God that just says every sin is okay with me

You know come on in because then child abusers like aren't held accountable. You know, there's no

So there's this sense of we want to just God. We just don't want it to be just toward us, right? If we want to be

okay, and I would say

So that's that's the gospel is that we are sinners we all fall in short

And he died for us and he he made us right with God now where I think the church has

struggled is

To believe that in Jesus

There really is no condemnation and

gosh if if that were true

We would bring everything quickly and loudly

The way I watch these college students do. I mean they just confess their sin a yell it out as wild

and

They really like put they test that verse. They're like is there no condemnation? You know, and so it's almost like a muscle

We have to practice it like practice being loved

Practice experiencing grace because it's hard to believe and it is so different than the world

It's so different in the world. I also speak in prisons and

It's so funny like they get the gospel better than anyone else on earth

They know that they've screwed up like they most of them some of them are like not guilty, you know

But most of them are like yeah, I killed the kid like I did it, you know, and it's so

Crazy and they're so honest and when I share the gospel there

Oh my gosh, I wish we could just like show pictures to everybody

We could we could do it. I guess yeah, we'll send them to you and it's these women. I was in a maximum security prison in Las Vegas

And two hundred you thank you. Oh my gosh. It was awesome

200. Oh, it was my delight with God behind bars and 200

Women came in this room and had their arms folded and I get up and

They kind of still have their arms folded and I'm teaching and I ask him

I'm like what'd you do like yell it out like just what's your sin?

Just yell it out and they did and I was like if you do it all together

You can't hear each other which better do it all you know better. I'll do it

And so they did it and and I mean and I was like yeah

and

God

died for that and Jesus like yeah, he loves you

And they're just crying. I mean 115 of them got baptized that night and

It was just magic. I really do think our problem is

We're so afraid of our own weaknesses. Mm-hmm

And we feel so much shame

And when you say it out loud and when you are honest about it

It breaks something it like it is

Is powerful. I mean, I've had a 60-year-old woman come up to me and say

I had an abortion when I was 13. I've never told anybody

And I'm like you've held on

So a lot of decades girl like

Yeah, that's not a way to live, you know, so I just think

If we really believe that then we trust it and we say the things we need to say and it's shocking

The freedom that came from it shocking. Mm-hmm

Do you think the lies are the same for men and women

Well, Psych 101 would say yes, but I think women are more quickly aware

Hey, she's got a home jitty. I can't tell you how many men are like I don't have one and then I talk to him for about 15 minutes and they're like

Yeah, do that's funny. It goes to home babe. Oh, what? Well, that's pretty much every conversation

Literally every courage. Yeah, Andrew how you feeling? I'm like I

I don't what do you mean? I think I think we literally got in the scuffle last night

So I was like I can clearly tell something's going on

Yeah, and he's like nothing's wrong. I'm like

Okay, I did that last week with Zach. Yeah, whenever you're ready to talk about it

I'll be here. That was another thing we learned from our our previous conversation

You had mentioned marriage counseling. I think I think oh yeah, yeah, we said yeah, we'll try to go like once or twice a year

Oh, no, we have our third kid and we went to the 16-week intensive that was like once a week

And honestly it was magical if anybody ever needs it. It's called rock house and it's biblically based shut

I have been looking for this people ask me this question all the time. Oh, it changed our life. So okay, just to give you the elevator rich

You go as a couple. Yeah, it's marriage and parenting. Yeah, you can do just marriage

Or just parenting or both combined we did both combined

They separate you so you never do counseling together

Which I was so skeptical about I was like we have to be together to work through our issues

And they put

wives with women and husbands with men

And it's 16 weeks you go for two hours once a week for 16 weeks. There's homework in

Every question you go through

They don't give you an opinion. They say let's open up the Bible

Let's see what the Bible says about your specific question and your grievance and your issue and you pray together

It's all about forgiveness

Which is like the whole thing is just forgiveness. Yeah, and like wow. That is

You learn to marriage, you know like big things little things you got to forgive them

And they would have you come in every week with a list. They said write down the entire list

You're saying this was after your third kids. Yeah, you were in the haze of oh, yeah

That kid's only two years. Yeah, so that was

That was beautiful

Don't do the timeline

After the third kid, but we literally googled biblical marriage counseling and I can't imagine it was the most beautiful thing

So thank you again. Yeah, and that's because of you. Thank you. Yeah

something that you said which made me think

just

Please don't stop your amazing work

But you said more than ever in your life you feel more convicted now about like your insecurities and your

Then you have before but also think you're doing bigger things for the glory of God than you've ever done

And I do believe even in my friends that I've heard

The the closer to God we get

The louder that's right the enemy gets. Well, yeah, I mean he's just

To deeply wanting to shut us down, right? Oh my gosh. I wish I thought of that every day

You know, I do I do think of it and when I know it's happening

I always ask for prayer and praise God

Like your psychiatrist said it's like we're it's getting

shorter and shorter like they're I'm dealing with it faster and faster and

Yeah, but it I wonder if it will always be there

I mean my counselor is like I think you might be 80 and you're still like

The same thing, but it's not in the same way

It's not and it has no power over me. I really doesn't it hasn't stopped

Me for many good work that God prepared in advance. So that's good

But yeah, there's just this nagging it's like a taunt

That's what I call it like it's like the enemy just kind of taunt you like oh

You know you that kind of a better

Even worse and I've right about this it's like a report card. Mm-hmm. It's like a

That was a b-plus

And it's like what a sad like what if I think this sweet conversation if I left and I was like ah that was like a b-plus for me

C plus when that wasn't the point

Like I adore you too like I could just argue and I love you both so much and being in

Your world and that was so delightful like this has been so fun and

We miss that when we're judging everything, you know, we're so hard on ourselves. And so I love your coach

I love your coach. It's not about the medals. It's not about the report card. It's like

Go out there and have fun and like do your best and Shawn. I mean watching you back then

That's what it felt like. I think the world loved it

Because it was like I just still remember watching you like like when you would like do a little thing right before you tumble and

And you would smile so big and it felt like we all had fun with you

Which is a direct result and there was bondage and there were lies and there were things

And there was a coach that said

Go out there and have fun and do your best and that is I think that's that's so the Lord for us

Like it's just not about that. I asked my counselor one time

I said I told him about the report card. I keep

He's like man, that doesn't sound like God

and

I was like I think it does. I think it does. I think it does either some verses and I like show the verses that I thought

Sounded he was like yeah, Jenny. I think you might be misunderstanding or misinterpreting those verses

And and it was it just was it changed my whole mindset about him like that's not him like he's not standing over us

Waiting to give us a grade. He's so lighting in us and wants to help

And help y'all parents and help you raise those kids and

You know we work with God. It's really fun. Yeah

You got to keep going. I know it's a battle and it sounds like the last year's been tough

But we're big fans of you again. We've been impacted. So uh

You know at a at a steady pace. Yeah, keep keep doing the Lord's work with y'all too

I mean same thing so grateful for both of you. Yeah, the way God's using you. So beautiful

Let's not wait six years till the next time. Please. Yeah, definitely next time we need to have a meal together

Yes, please. Yeah, I also want to go to one of these events that you know

Some tears crying. I would love it. I'm going soon. I would love it

Come on, because I never thought I'd hear can I go to prison with you? Yeah

I'm done

Okay, for those listening that want to read

Ginny Allen's new book the lie you don't know you believe

Uh, we'll link it down below also you're on tour for the next couple weeks

We'll link the we'll link that down below and you're busy. So thank you for making time for us. This is a treat

Yeah, thank you