The Lies Sabotaging Your Success, Joy & Freedom and How to Unlearn Them for Good! With Jennie Allen

Most humans believe one of three lies.

I am worthless, I am unlovable, or I am helpless.

One, at some point, got into your life

and began to define your life.

For me, mine was I am worthless.

These narratives have gotten there

and they've stayed there for long enough

that it's really hard to rewire our brains.

It's really hard to change the story, but you can.

You can.

You can.

Helming up in this incredible episode with Jenny Allen,

Why don't I believe I'm enough?

Why?

Do I think I don't have what it takes?

Why do I think other people can go after their dreams?

But I just can't.

And on and on and on.

When we believe negative lies about ourselves,

how does it impact our lives?

The storyline behind those negative thoughts

that we all feel that you just named.

And there's so many more.

There's this real fear that deep down we think it's true.

We hope it's a lie.

We pray that it's not true.

In fact, we try to fix ourselves

and we spend a lot of energy pretending

that we don't believe those things

that we are perfectly secure and confident.

There's these running things

that we have just been programmed to think

that have been there so long

that we don't even question them.

And now what I can say about today,

that lie that I'm worthless,

that I know how to recognize it,

I know it's a lie.

I don't wonder any more if it's true.

And I can spot it and I can speak to it.

I can put it on trial.

Hi, it's Jamie, I'm so happy you are here today.

If you ever find yourself thinking thoughts like,

I'm not enough, I'm worthless.

Or I'm helpless and can't do it on my own.

Or I'm unlovable.

Those are lies.

And sometimes they're even lies.

We don't realize we're believing.

And when we believe them,

they can sabotage all areas of our lives

from our career, to our friendships,

to our romantic and family relationships,

to our faith, to our joy and happiness.

And today, I am so excited for this conversation

because we're joined by Jenny Allen,

who's here to share how to find that lie.

You're believing right now how to dismantle it

and how to live free finally.

Jenny Allen is a New York Times best-selling author,

speaker, podcaster, Bible teacher,

and founder of the Visionary If Gathering,

a global movement that over the past decade

has reached more than one million women

in 179 countries through in-person and online gatherings.

And she has a brand new book out called The Lie.

You don't know you believe.

How to find it, fight it, and live free.

I am so excited for this conversation today

because I know firsthand that lies can pull us back,

keep us stuck, and sabotage our calling.

And when we learn to stop believing them,

it can transform everything in our lives.

And whether today you're listening for yourself

or because someone that you love shared this episode with you,

I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kernley Macho podcast family.

Thank you so much for being here.

And if you take one second and just hit the subscribe

or follow button on the app that you're listening

or watching on, it truly means the world to me.

You can also get more inspiration free,

right into your inbox from me to you.

Just join my newsletter community at Jamie Kernley Mach calm.

Also this incredible podcast episode today,

it's not just for you and me, please share it

with every single person that you know

who might need some inspiration today

or perhaps a boost in their own belief

or to stop believing a lie in their life right now.

Because what you're about to hear

can truly impact mine, yours, and their life too.

Welcome to the Jamie Kernley Macho.

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Jamie, you are going so deep.

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You know how to get there.

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I wasn't expecting that one.

I could see the light around her.

She's infused with light.

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I never made that mistake again.

Imagine overcoming self-doubt,

learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself

and know you are enough.

Welcome to the Jamie Kernley Macho.

Jamie Kernley Mach is her name.

Everybody needs Jamie Kernley Mach in their life.

Jamie Kernley Mach.

Jamie, you're so inspiring.

Jamie Kernley Mach.

Jamie Allen, welcome to the Jamie Kernley Macho.

Jamie, it is such an honor to be here.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited you're here.

I read your new book Cover to Cover.

Love it.

And it is something that, as you and I both know,

we've both been impacted by believing lies.

And I feel like it's probably one of the most common questions

I get asked by, you know, viewers, listeners, friends,

people I know.

I mean, it's just like, how?

Why don't I believe I'm enough?

Why?

Do I think I don't have what it takes?

Why do I think other people

can go after their dreams?

But I just can't.

And on and on and on.

And so I'm so excited for this.

And a lot of people are aware that they have sort of like

negative self-talk.

And maybe they are believing lies that aren't true.

Or maybe they don't even know the lies they're believing.

And just right off the top when we believe negative lies

about ourselves, how does it impact our life?

Well, let me start with a story.

Yes.

So I'm sitting across from my daughter, Kate,

to, at the time, was about 21.

And she's just dynamic.

I mean, one of the most likable people you've ever met,

just everybody knows her.

She lights up a room.

She's a successful photographer.

She's married to this darling young guy

and they're starting their lives together.

And we're at the airport together.

And we're having a meal.

And she begins to tell me just open up

vulnerable.

I'm defective.

I'm broken.

Something is really wrong with me.

And she's just saying these things to me.

And as her mom who sees her as just one of the most dynamic

humans I've ever known, you know, I'm furious.

Like everything inside of me is just wanting to fix this.

I want to preach.

I want to, I want to tell her what's true.

But what was so shocking and what broke my heart

was even when I tried to tell her this is a lie.

This isn't true.

She was like, you can't tell me that.

You're my mom.

Meaning all of those horrible things

she had just said about herself.

She actually thinks they're true.

And so I just think the storyline behind those negative thoughts

that we all feel that you just named.

And there's so many more.

There's this real fear that deep down we think it's true.

We hope it's a lie.

We pray that it's not true.

And in fact, we try to fix ourselves

and we spend a lot of energy pretending

that we don't believe those things

that we are perfectly secure and confident.

Something I think down deep in all of us.

And sitting across from my daughter that day was.

It was one of those moments where as a mom,

you just think, what did I do?

Like how did how did I how did I allow for this to happen?

And I felt this deep, deep conviction.

And just stopped, stopped me in my tracks

because I realized like, okay,

I actually believe the same things even today.

You know, I mean, today I'm feeling pretty good.

I did my hair and makeup.

I feel pretty good today.

But you know what, yesterday I was struggling with these again.

And so I think there's these running things

that we have just been programmed to think

that have been there so long

that we don't even question them.

And so my prayer and my hope is that

the conversation we have today that this book,

it causes us to start to question them.

Is it true?

Is this something I've just accepted?

Maybe for decades of my life.

For you in your life,

as you just shared with your daughter,

believe, thank you for sharing that.

For you in your life.

Yeah.

Because I know so many women and everyone's going to relate to this.

Yeah.

What are some of the biggest lies you've believed?

And how have they impacted you?

Because I know now,

you know, and your book is so powerful,

the lie you don't know you believe.

Because a lot of us, we just go through life.

Or we take it as truth.

Or we're not even realizing it.

And you go into how to find it,

fight it and live free.

You go into dismantling lies,

which I have questions about to.

I'm so excited about this conversation.

Because you know, our identity, who we are,

who, what we believe, everything.

We're worthy of all the things.

And so for you,

because there's a lot of people out there,

millions of people out there who are inspired by you,

by your work, by your offerings to the world.

And I think that it's easy to be at home going,

oh, she has everything.

She must not believe that, you know,

she must have no issues.

She must not.

And then people think they're alone in their self-doubt.

Or they're alone.

And maybe the lies they believe about themselves.

Maybe they don't realize their lies.

But how has, how what lies have you believed about,

about yourself?

And can you share a little bit about, like,

how those have impacted your life?

Let me, let me first say,

I want to go backwards and talk about kind of my core lie

and where it came from.

Because I think all of us can look back and trace it.

We can find the thing that, that we've believed.

Most humans believe one of three lies.

This is from Psych 101.

This is just common knowledge.

I am worthless.

I am unlovable.

Or I am helpless.

Those are three core lies.

Now, we all believe those at different points in our life.

But probably one core one at some point

got into your life and began to define your life.

For me, mine was I am worthless.

And I remember being in sixth grade.

And I remember being on my dad's lap.

And it was a really sweet moment.

We were looking at the popcorn ceiling together.

We were in his big recliner.

I was still kind of a little girl.

I hadn't, like, gotten through puberty yet.

And I was headed into sixth grade.

And we were talking about middle school.

And he started just running through a list

about boys, totally innocent things.

Boys and homecoming and all these little things

that were going to come up in the coming year.

But what I heard was, these are the grades you need to make.

Are you going to be like, my boys?

Are you going to hit these marks?

Are you going to make cheerleading?

You know, I just, he was just trying to talk to me.

It wasn't, it was so innocent on his part.

And yet, I remember that moment like it was yesterday.

And it was the moment where I thought, oh gosh,

I need to hit some marks to matter.

Don't remember feeling it before that.

I probably did.

There were probably moments of insecurity

or ways that I picked up.

I should behave a certain way or should measure up in a certain way.

But I remember that day like it was yesterday.

And it was like my life turned.

And it turned from freedom and creativity,

enjoy and play and light heartedness

to hustle and stress and failure.

And I can't get where I think I'm supposed to get.

And I wish you could read this book.

I could write this book and never feel those things again.

But it was almost like writing the book.

I felt like my sixth grade self all over again, even worse

because it was, I was now saying

this is something we can fight together.

But I was also feeling like nothing.

I was building or doing.

It was, it was almost like I was,

I was being attacked with the thing

I was trying to help people get.

Does that make sense?

And I say that because

we could just, if only,

we could just tell ourselves like it's not true,

don't ever believe it again.

Right.

And yet what's happened is these narratives have gotten there

and they've stayed there for long enough

that it's really hard to rewire our brains.

It's really hard to change the story, but you can.

You can.

You can.

And now what I can say about today,

that lie that I'm worthless,

that I know how to recognize it.

I know it's a lie.

I don't wonder anymore if it's true.

And I can spot it and I can speak to it.

I can put it on trial.

I don't have to just accept it.

You don't have to agree with it.

So many of our thoughts we just agree with.

I just naturally like, oh, you know,

it's a thought, it must be true.

And if we don't agree with it,

if we begin to put it on trial,

and go, is this true, is this, where is this coming from?

You can begin to shift it.

Can you share with the three most common lies

that most people believe?

Can you, can you just share a little bit

for the person listening who's like, huh, you know,

I, I want to figure this out.

Like what is the lie that's affecting me the most?

And can you explain a little bit about what those three

look like for most people that have them

and like what ways they might show up in their lives?

So people like, oh, you asked me,

because when you share this, I know right away for me.

I'm very similar to you.

Yeah, I'm like, oh, I remember I used to do gymnastics

growing up and my parents were always working.

And so they'd always be the last to show up.

And I mean, I was so loved.

I wouldn't change, by the way,

I would not change a thing.

I'm so blessed, so grateful, all the things.

And also, I learned if I achieve something,

they leave work and show up.

So like if I win an award at school,

then they show up, right?

So I'm able to trace back now.

Why is it that I like built a company

where it's 100 hour weeks for a decade?

And why is it that even sometimes right now,

I'd rather work and do podcast prep

than even just be present with my family?

Like why is it?

And I go back to like, oh, yeah,

it's because I think I, I, you know,

I don't feel worthy unless I'm achieving.

Well, yeah, I want to talk to that.

Well, how old were you?

What age comes to mind?

I would say nine.

Okay.

So little nine-year-old Jamie,

I'm just thinking of her,

what you ultimately wanted?

Did you want to be important?

Did you want to matter?

Did you want, no, you wanted to appear?

You didn't want to be alone?

Yeah.

Like at the core of all of this.

And so let's just start with like this tremendous grace.

Like grace for yourself as you're sharing this grace

for everybody listening,

like is there thinking about this?

Like just everybody's taking a really deep breath

because we are all the same.

We all just want to be loved and seen and known and accepted.

Like we're not complicated.

We really just want basic things.

We need to pause for a super brief break.

And while we do,

take a moment to share this episode with every single person

that you know who this could inspire

because this conversation can truly be the words

and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going.

To remember that they matter and to feel less alone

and more enough,

more connected,

more inspired and more worthy.

In life,

you don't sort the level of your hopes and dreams.

You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth.

When you build your self-worth,

you change your entire life.

And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy.

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If you have some self-doubt to destroy

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Imagine a life with zero self-doubt

and unshakable self-worth.

Get your copy of Worthy

plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts

for you at WorthyBook.com

or the link in the show notes below.

Imagine what you do

if you fully believed in you.

It's time to find out with Worthy.

Who you spend time around

is so important as energy is contagious

and so is self-belief.

And I'd love to hang out with you

even more especially

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Do you struggle with negative self-talk?

Living with a constant mental narrative

that you're not good enough is exhausting?

I know because I spent most of my life in that habit.

The words you say to yourself about yourself

are so powerful and when you learn to take control

over your self-talk, it's life-changing.

And I wanted to give you a free resource

that I created for you if this is something

that could benefit your life.

It's called five ways to overcome negative self-talk

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It's time to rewrite the script of your life

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If you're ready to take charge of your narrative,

build unwavering confidence

and empower yourself to persevere

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you can grab your free guide

to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself

at jameakernlima.com slash resources

or click the link in the show notes below.

And now more of this incredible conversation together.

We are all the same.

We all just want to be loved and seen

and known and accepted.

Like, we're not complicated.

We really just want basic things.

You wanted your parents to show up.

You want to know that you're loved

and somebody knows your name

and they're so happy that you're alive.

And like, these are just human desires.

And so I think it's so good to start here

because we can kind of tend to hear the word lie

and beat ourselves up and think to ourselves

like, I shouldn't think that way.

I shouldn't feel worthless.

Like, God loves me, people love me.

Like, here's the truth.

You know, stick it on.

So it can feel almost transactional.

Like, I need to fix this.

And the reality is we're just people

that I love my counselor.

He says, we come into the world looking

for someone looking for us.

Like, little babies when they're born.

They come into the world going, who's out there?

Who loves me?

Who's going to pick me up?

Who cares about me?

And we never stop.

Like, when we're, you know, 80,

we're still like looking for somebody looking for us.

So I just think that's so precious that gymnastics story

because it really does.

I think go to the core of what we're actually after.

And so, you know, when I think of those three lies,

I'm worthless.

There's something in us, all of us, really,

that just wants to believe that we can matter,

that we can arrive and hit the mark.

And so we tend to beat ourselves up when we don't.

We tend to be really hard on ourselves

when there's failure.

We hate failure.

We're afraid of failure.

And so there's a lot of striving in our lives.

Like there's just a lot of work in and hustling

and not wanting to be too much,

but also really wanting to be enough.

And so the way my brain works

is I just always feel like there's a line

and it keeps moving.

You know, and I'm just trying to hit it.

But then I hit it.

Dang it.

And I thought that would be it.

And it moves again.

And so, yeah, that one's, that one I'm familiar with.

And then helpless, a lot of people that I interviewed,

a lot of people I am friends with,

that struggle with this one,

often have abuse in their background.

They had something in their childhood

that they couldn't control.

And so maybe it was verbal, maybe it was sexual,

maybe it was physical,

or maybe it was just a really hard life.

They were in poverty or something

that they just couldn't control.

And so circumstances, their mom got cancer.

It could have been something like that

where they had no control.

And so a lot of feelings that people express to me

when they say, I feel helpless.

It's, I can't ever change.

This will never change about me.

I'm just this way.

I don't think people really want to be around me

because I'm just stuck.

I can't, I can't get my life together.

Those are some of the phrases

that everything is out of my control.

Yeah, like I can't.

Right, yeah.

And then the other one is I'm lovable.

And I certainly feel this way.

I think we all feel this way some days.

But for a lot of people, it's,

it's a sense of feeling forgotten

or feeling like they are,

you know, they maybe grew up in a home

where there was a disconnect emotionally

and they didn't have parents

that could really be there for them.

And so they're always kind of looking to connect emotionally

and there's a real high approval idol.

They want to be liked and they want to be seen

and they want to be understood.

And so a lot of things that all here from them

have to do with insecurity of just being rejected

or feeling left out or feeling like,

why wasn't I included in that?

And that really crushing them in a unique way.

Like where that one just really has them.

They really want to be included.

I think we all want to be all these things, right?

We all want to, you know, we all want to have control.

We all want to and not be helpless.

We all want to be matter and succeed and not be worthless.

You know, we all want to be loved and accepted.

And so we all have these desires.

But I think depending on what the narrative was playing in your life,

there's one that really just feels true.

And in addition to the three core lies,

you say, too, there's others.

There's others, right?

That people could potentially believe.

And so for someone listening right now,

what's a great way to sort of either get quiet

or pray or meditate or feel like

where they can get in touch with even tuning into

what are the lies or the main lie they're believing?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, first of all, I found this to be hard for people.

Let's be real.

I don't know if you've gone to counseling,

but I've been to a lot of counseling.

Yes.

So the reason I can know what my lie is,

I've done a lot of work on it, right?

So for people that don't, I mean,

we wanted to make it really simple.

And so you can go to my website,

jenniela.com and y'all can link it.

And there's actually like a little quiz.

And it's pretty accurate.

Like, it's pretty unbelievable.

Because I think sometimes we can overthink it.

We can go, I think I'm all three and I don't know what.

So that really is just a helpful tool.

It's free.

But as far as, you know, when you're sitting there

and you're just praying, I would just go back to a moment

that you remember feeling scared,

that you remember feeling pain.

And think about what age you were.

Just like we both did, real naturally.

Yeah.

I thought of 12.

You thought of nine.

What was an event in your life

where you felt like a really strong negative emotion?

And oftentimes that's when a lie is planted.

And it begins to take root.

And so if you can just go back and think

of what that time was, what that age was,

and then you just begin to go, gosh,

did I pick up something there in that moment?

That I need to question.

That maybe it wasn't true.

You know, it's so funny.

Now my dad and I, we talk about this.

And he's heard me tell that story.

And of course, he's pleading with me going, baby girl,

like, I don't even remember that first of all.

In second of all, that it wasn't what I meant.

You know, like I was just trying to find something

to talk to you about.

And so it's good to go back and just question.

You know, maybe that wasn't even real.

Now, in some cases, it's a real thing.

Right.

And that's where, you know, we have to begin to go, okay,

even if your dad walked out and even if,

let's fast forward to your husband walked out.

And maybe it was something that you did, right?

So we can pick up lies from circumstances

as well that really reinforce it

because it feels like, man, that was my fault.

I am a failure.

And so I think we have to just find the moment

and begin to ask questions about that moment

and really think about where,

where did that come from for me.

And let's say, and there's an example of,

you know, I did something horrible

for the person listening is like,

well, I actually made this huge mistake.

I regret it in my past.

I did something in the past and I regret it.

And ever since I've done it,

I consider myself a failure.

I consider myself not enough.

I consider myself a bad person.

Those kind of things.

How do you take that where all of a sudden you have evidence

that your life is true?

Yeah.

And how do you, and I would love to hear from you personally,

because for me, faith has been a big part of this.

Absolutely.

It's like, how do you go, okay.

As an imperfect human, I did that or as an imperfect,

but that is not who I am.

That is not like, how do you take that

and have it not become, have the lie,

not become your identity any longer?

How do you do that for you personally?

How do you tell people to do it?

I love to use this.

I do, I love him.

And the reason I love him is because

he made a way for all this.

And I, you know, I've studied and thought about

so many different religions and I just keep coming back

to him because into what he did,

because I don't have to measure up.

That was the story of Jesus in the gospel,

was that he would pay the penalty

for the mistakes we made.

And as a kid, he grew up with,

and I grew up in a religious home,

I grew up in a Christian home.

I heard the gospel.

As a kid, he grew up with this pressure

and feeling like I could never hit the mark.

When I really understood the gospel,

I was about 17 years old.

And I remember I, it hit me.

You know, I'd heard it before,

but it hit me that he liked me.

Like, that God liked me, that he didn't hate me.

But that I didn't have to do anything else

like right where I was at 17 year old,

a little punk, Jenny Self,

who was so self obsessed and boy obsessed

and dramatic and vain and all the things.

He liked me and he loved me.

And I just was like, I will never forget that night.

I was on the ground.

I was at a summer camp and I just,

but it might as well just been me and God.

I was like, I can't believe that, you know?

And I think that just changed everything for me.

It changes everything for me.

I mean, I do all of my books.

I've wrote a book called Get Out of Your Head.

I talk about mental health and I want to talk about that

because I believe God built our brain

and it's so helpful to know how our brains work

and how we can shift our thinking

because it's real and we can.

And we can talk about that.

And we can talk about psychology, I believe in it.

Like, I love all of that.

But at the end of the day,

underneath all of it for me

is just, there's a God who built me, who loves me

and who has accepted me

because of His Son and Jesus and what He did for me.

And that just, it just kind of, it says me free.

It helps me find a confidence that

that nobody can take away from me, you know?

And I know everybody less things in different places

with God or believes different religions.

I know everybody comes at this from a different place,

but that's my story.

And it really has given me peace

when I think about mattering

and being worth something.

I'm like, Jesus died for me.

Like, He came for me.

And He knows my name and He loves me and accepts me.

And when I think about feeling helpless

I'm like, and He has empowered me

and given me gifts and the spirit to walk with them.

And then when you think about being, you know,

unlovable, it's like, man, He loved me enough to like come

show up in a baby manger like in the hay

and like all the things, you know?

And I just, I can't believe it.

So I think I've never gotten over that.

I just, it's so just still melts me.

And so you can instantly sort of dismantle every lie

with that, with that, just that.

And I have to keep coming back to it, right?

Because, you know, God's quiet, the world's loud.

And, you know, for me, it really had to come down to which

world am I going to live in.

Because this world's really loud.

And I live for it most days in the morning

when I wake up, right?

And the hustle, it's true.

You know, there's, to some degree, if I just live for this

world, I do need to measure up, you know?

If I just live in this world, I need to be liked.

I need to be accepted.

If I just live in this world, I need to try to control

everything that I can.

But if I really believe that life doesn't end at the

grave, like, I'm not going to die and it's over.

Like, if I really believe that there's something more,

all of that faith and all of that perspective

seeps into who I am and it just gives me this piece and

this joy that, hey, you know what, Jenny?

It's okay that you didn't do that right.

It's okay that you screwed that up.

Like, God still loves you.

You still have the most important things.

You may lose some money.

You may lose some acceptance.

You may lose.

And that just, it's a grounding that's underneath, you

know, these fears that we have and we live with.

I walk through a season of doubt in my faith for about 18

months, scared me to death.

Tell me about that because a lot of people struggle

with doubt when it comes to, like, is God real?

Of course.

Is, you know, all of that.

And I get it.

Yeah.

I get it.

I mean, I just mentioned 17 and like, that's how long of,

you know, walked with God.

But it was, it wasn't long ago.

It was about, was before COVID.

So it was probably eight years ago.

Okay.

I am, I'm going to sleep at night and I just start asking myself,

is this real?

Is this true?

I'm, I'm a preacher.

Like, I almost, I'm out there like talking about Jesus.

I want to give everyone context.

So, so, so Jenny Allen is probably one of the most beloved

preachers, Bible teachers.

I mean, in, in the, I would say Christian world, especially,

but also just globally everywhere.

You've impacted millions and millions of people.

So this is news to me.

So I didn't know this.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I'm in the middle of public ministry, right?

Yes.

And I just, this question of, are you sure?

You know, are you sure?

God's real.

I just, I kept asking it.

And it was every night being the middle of the night.

I'd wake up in three AM hour and I would just spin.

And it just started out of the blue.

Yeah.

Out of the blue.

Okay.

Nothing prompted it.

There was no like drastic suffering.

I've had suffering in my life.

That wasn't what caused it.

Out of the blue.

Random thoughts.

And didn't think much about it.

I didn't, I just, but it grew.

And I became obsessed in the night wondering and not sure.

And I never told anybody, I mean months, go by.

And as thoughts do, they grow.

And they begin to take hold of you.

And I began to have people notice that I couldn't watch movies

about death anymore.

I couldn't watch, I mean, basic movies.

Like we're talking Spider-Man and Marvel.

Like nothing, nothing that scary.

Yeah.

But I could, I had such a strong reaction because I became so afraid of death.

Because I just thought if it goes to black, I was, I became so afraid of, of dying.

And I remember preaching sometimes or being on a stage and, and talking.

And in the back of my mind, I was like, do I believe this?

And I'm someone who's really real.

Like I'm not, I don't fake it.

So I wasn't, it wasn't that I was trying to fake it.

It was that I didn't understand how serious it had become.

I wasn't taking it very seriously.

And so I look back at that season and I just, I mean, you know what it did?

And I'm so grateful for it now.

It scared me to death.

And I didn't know how to make it in.

And so for anybody listening that feels like, I would love to believe in God.

I just don't.

I just don't like, you could be watching me and thinking, she's all lit up.

Like she really does believe that.

Like I would love to believe that.

That would feel good to believe that.

I would just say, I get it.

And you see in the Bible doubters.

You see people that wrestled with God.

And I see so much permission for that.

And so I would just say, don't be afraid to just say, help me.

Like help my unbelief.

I don't know if I believe.

But if you're there, I'm curious, you know, like make yourself known to me.

Just ask him, you know.

And so in that season, I couldn't, I couldn't get out of it.

And I remember the first time I told somebody.

And it was so scary.

I remember feeling like it felt so big to say all out.

I mean, Jenny Allen.

Bible teacher.

Doesn't, isn't sure she believes in God anymore.

You know, problem.

And light problems.

Light problem.

But I wasn't afraid of like losing.

It wasn't, I don't want it to sound like I was trying to self protect or something.

I just, it was so, it was so much deeper than like my job or it was like, it was dead.

It was like a fear of like, what if he's just not there?

Like, what if this, we made this up in our mind, you know?

And, and so when I set it out loud, I set it to one of my friends named Ann.

And she started laughing at me.

And she walks pretty close with me in life, you know?

And she started laughing.

And she goes, that's not true.

You do believe in God.

Jenny Allen, I've washed your life.

That's just not true.

You believe in God.

And it was, it was like these lights came on.

Like I'd been in the dark all by myself.

And all these lights came on like, I do believe.

Like, I do, when I set it out loud, you know what it felt like?

It felt stupid.

But I had been in my brain all by myself.

And that's a terrible place to be.

And so the greatest thing we can do, the first thing we can do always is say it out loud.

To say out loud, like, I think I've been believing something.

And I don't even know if it's true or false.

But I need to say it out loud because I think about it all the time.

And if I don't say it out loud, I can't know if it's true.

And the second she reacted that way, it was so clear to me that honestly I believe that whole season.

Like I believe there's an enemy, you know?

I believe there's an enemy that hates us.

That's after us that's wants to trick us, that wants us to believe lies.

The Bible talks about he's a liar.

And I think that was strategic for 18 months, that I would just sit there in that lie.

That God is not real.

God is not real.

God is not real long enough.

For me to dismantle my whole faith.

And when I said it out loud, when I named it, it even sounded ridiculous to me.

But it didn't for 18 months.

And so I just think we live so isolated.

This is so good, Jenny.

I just want to say this one more time because I don't want anyone to miss this right now.

Because when I think about, you know, for example, the example I gave earlier about like,

oh, you know, I need to achieve to be worthy of love.

If I, when I say that out loud, I know that sounds ridiculous.

Right.

If your kids said that, she feels like never.

Yeah.

Ridiculous.

Or when you probably heard your daughter say that, you're like, dick what?

And, but yeah, so many of us, just like you for 18 months, we keep it inside.

We think it.

We don't tell someone about it.

And it's just in us.

And it's probably like growing and magnifying.

And what you just said is so, so powerful because I want everyone listening right now

watching us, whatever the lie is that you have.

And, and maybe you're going to go to Jenny Allen's website, get, do the quiz to figure it out.

Or maybe you already know.

Maybe you already know your lie.

Maybe you have a few of them that you're believing.

Try saying it out loud to someone you care about.

First easy step.

Oh my goodness.

That's so good.

You could go in today.

Yeah.

Before you go to sleep again.

And then see how you feel when you say it.

Okay, but here's what's going to happen.

I'm going to tell you right now.

I'm going to tell you.

Tell me.

Tell me.

Tell all of that.

This happened to me yesterday.

Okay.

So I did this last night with a friend because I told you I had had a bad day.

I was believing a lot of lies.

I was even anxious about coming today and talking about all of this because I'm like.

You know, this is one of my first times to be talking about the book.

I just start ready to be out there and I don't even, you know, I'm struggling with these things.

I'm going to go talk about, you know, I just was having all these doubts and spiraling.

And I texted a friend and I said, what are you doing?

She was like, let's go.

So we go to our little spot and we sit down together and we order.

And she goes, what's wrong?

And the first feeling I felt was a lot of shame.

And I just want to say that because this is last night for me, right?

And I just felt like, I don't want to say this out loud because it sounds embarrassing.

And deep down, I'm not sure the book is good.

And I don't know if it's going to help people.

And I don't know if I'm measuring up.

Like, I think we want the answer to be, it's awesome.

You measure up.

You're great.

Go in the world, slay, kill it.

Like, that's what we want.

But it's like, that only feels good for a little while because you're like, I don't, I don't know.

But what does feel good?

Is my friend looking at me going, girl, I don't care.

Like, if your book's on New York Times this time or not, like, I don't care.

If you, like, I am loved and known by my friend.

And if I fail miserably.

And if the comments below this are, that girl is trell-

Like, if it's all negative and like, making fun of me and all this.

My friend, Lindsay, isn't going anywhere.

Like, she would laugh at it with me.

And we would be okay.

And it is the deepest longing in my soul.

It's not to actually be great.

It's not to make New York Times.

The deepest longing in my soul.

Is it somebody knows everything about me.

Knows what's embarrassing.

Knows what feels hard to say.

Knows that I'm afraid that I'm not going to hit a mark that everybody around me wants me to hit.

Knows that I lie sometimes and I am jealous of people.

And I am mean.

I can be mean, you know.

And she knows all of that.

And she looked me in the eyes and she's like, I got you, girl.

Like, I'm not going anywhere.

It is the longing of a heart.

And I know some people listening are thinking, I don't even have anybody to call.

Like, I don't even know who to tell.

And I would just say three and five people are lonely.

Somebody is craving the same thing you are.

And we're all tired of pretending.

And we're all tired of playing the game.

And we're all tired of just talking about our kids and talking about our work and talking about that and talking about this and going home empty.

We're all tired of it.

And it feels good just to go, you know.

I can't control my husband and our marriage is hard.

And I don't know what to do about it.

It just feels good to be honest and say these things out loud and whatever you need to say.

Like, whatever your thing is.

And I went home last night.

It was so funny.

My whole mood changed.

And I texted her on the way home and I just said, I love you.

And that was so fun.

And it wasn't fun.

We cried.

We laughed a little.

But it was real.

And it was deep.

And I felt known.

So I guess I just want to encourage people that that first feeling you're going to feel which is shame.

Push through it.

Push through it.

Because that's actually the thing you want.

We need to pause for a super brief break.

And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire.

Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going.

To remember that they matter and to feel less alone and more enough, more connected, more inspired and more worthy.

Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious.

And so is self belief.

And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration.

Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter.

That's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me.

If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jameykernlima.com to make sure you're on the list.

And you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you.

If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl.

Subscribe at jameykernlima.com or in the link in the show notes.

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And now more of this incredible conversation together.

So many things you just said are so, so good and someone needs to hear them right now.

And I think it was so insightful when you said there's going to be someone that's like, well, I don't even know who to call.

I have to tell them that, you know, I don't feel I'm enough or whatever it is, right?

Or I feel like I can't do anything on my own or I'm unlovable, right?

And three and five people being lonely.

I think that that is so powerful to know because I think we feel, especially when we feel lonely or we feel like we don't have a new call,

we think it's just us and we think that, you know, there's something wrong with us.

And I think what's beautiful about this is like I always have loved this concept of like what you, if you need something, give it.

Like if you need right, right?

That's the answer for someone else.

And it's like, yeah, if you are feeling lonely right now and you walk into a coffee shop,

there is a good chance three out of five people in there feeling the exact same way.

That's right.

And so the odds of just, I mean, that's when I think about making friends as an adult

and it seems so intimidating and it seems so hard until there's moments like the last three minutes with what you just shared.

There's going to be people that tuned in and maybe have known you or your work or seen glimpses of your work

because your work's impacted millions for a good reason because it's incredible, because people connect with it,

because it changes lives.

Like it's not an accident when someone has multiple bestselling books, Jenny Allen.

But the fact that you're sitting here in the last few minutes saying that just yesterday,

you're having all these thoughts and you're sitting here and you're sharing things like I sometimes am mean

and I'm sometimes jealous and I'm sometimes all of these things.

I just feel like that is so powerful and such a blessing because there'll be people that maybe started watching this episode.

And see you but maybe think that they're somehow different or that like they, you know,

they could never stop believing their lies or they can never write a book and share their own stories

or they can never do those things.

And at the end of the day, we all, like you said earlier, we all have these same things that we feel that we experience

even if the outside that person is this hyper-successful achiever or this person is on stages all over the world like you are

or whatever, but you're sharing those things and I think that that's so beautiful.

And I think that's one of the many reasons your work and in particular,

because we have your brand new book right here, the lie you don't know you believe,

how to find it, find it and live free, one of the reasons and I've read it covered it cover.

So you might have doubts yesterday.

I've got no doubts.

Oh, girl.

My yesterday.

Let me just tell you about my yesterday.

My yesterday was like, I get to talk with Jenny Allen.

I get to have, I get to have her on the show and talk about the lie you don't know you believe.

I was talking to Paula, my husband about how much of my life I have lost believing lies,

believing lies about who I am, how I don't have what it takes, how I'm not enough.

And when we believe these lies, we sabotage that.

You know, we sabotage it or we stay stuck, right?

And we don't go for things or, you know, we can like, it affects us.

It affects us.

It could doubt, literally, there's times in my life, I feel like I doubted myself out of my own destiny.

Yeah.

Because I was like, oh, I don't have what it takes and I believe the lie.

And so the work you're doing and also just like you sharing who you fully are,

I think is so powerful.

You know, and I think when it comes to faith, by the way, you know, I think that

you know, and I actually isn't asked you about this because there's going to be a lot of people

listening who have really strong faith in their life.

And maybe they have really a really strong relationship with Jesus.

And then there's going to be people that have different faiths and people that are like,

I've always felt judged and like I wouldn't be accepted into a faith.

And one of the things I feel is so beautiful is you're sharing.

You're sitting here as one of the most well-known preachers, Bible teachers,

all the things, life changing, inspiring women to so many people.

And you're saying all this stuff, you're like, and I mean some time I'm lying.

And this, and yesterday I was crying because I was worried about tomorrow.

And then my daughter shared all these lies that I realized we'll wait a minute.

I checked up.

I believe those lies too.

And I just think that the, I don't even know what to call it.

Yeah.

And I don't want to call it the courage, the anointing that all of it combined is such a blessing

because I personally know so many people who, when even the topic of faith comes up,

they feel like they're disqualified from it or they'll be judged.

Oh yeah.

What do you say to the person listening right now who maybe is like, you know,

I maybe feel like I'm open to faith, but I don't know.

I feel like maybe I wouldn't fit in or I'd be judged or I've made too many past mistakes

or somehow parts of me wouldn't be accepted or, or, or I'd, any of those things.

I just, I think I feel really tender to that I feel sorry on behalf of a lot of Christians

because we may have made you feel that way.

We can be really judgmental.

We can make it seem like you have to arrive somewhere to be a follower of God.

You have to believe something.

You have to be in this political party.

You have to do this.

You have to, it can just feel complicated, the word Christian, anything about it.

And so I just, I guess I would just start by just saying I'm sorry.

And that is not Jesus.

Jesus is, it's simple for him.

You know, he, he built you.

He loves you.

He knows you.

He said, Scripture says, he knows every hair on your head.

Like that's how well God knows you.

He's been coming for you.

It's like this force of a love that's like been coming for you your whole life.

And maybe you've felt it at times and maybe you've never felt it.

But like, I promise you for God so love the world that he came after us

with the most costly thing with Jesus.

I mean, he, he sent his son so that people could be saved to earth, to show his love.

You know, I've enjoyed watching the chosen and you just see, you know, the character.

Jesus, the way it was played.

He's just, his eyes.

You just start like, I just hope, I hope he loves like that.

He does.

It gets better than that, you know.

And, and he comes for us and he loves us.

And he, he specifically loves a whole Bible is about all stories of jacked up people.

Like, I don't know what anybody listening that's never read the Bible would think it was about.

But it's all about all these people that are, murderers that are, that are liars that betray each other,

that betray Jesus.

I mean, it's, like, it's a disaster.

Like, it would be our rated top to bottom.

Like, most of it, it's just, it's a disaster.

And it's all about God coming for us anyway.

I just think, somewhere we got it all wrong, you know, like we thought we had to measure up.

And then God would like us or love us.

And it's like, no, we never did.

And he loved us anyway.

And, and so I, you know, for me specifically, he always thought she had to measure up.

It's like, I always go to God and I always think I'm a disappointment, right?

Like, I always, I remember I was reading my college journals once.

And every single entry was like, I'm so sorry, God, that I, you know, haven't prayed in a while.

I'm so sorry that I made out with that boy.

I'm so, you know, it's like, it's just, it's all the huge apology.

That's all I did in college was apologize.

And I was like, he like, he probably feels a little like I feel about my kid, you know?

He's 17 and way too busy for me.

And when I get his attention, when he gets to sit in front of me, all I feel is delight.

I just feel like I'm the luckiest human on earth that Cooper Allen is looking in my eyes

and telling me about his life.

I am, I am the luckiest person on earth.

That's how I feel about my kid.

He's a punk.

He gets in trouble.

He's imperfect.

I don't want him to sit down and talk to me about that.

I want him to tell me about his day.

I want him to tell me about the girl he thinks is cute right now.

I want him to tell me, I want to be with my kid, you know?

And that's like this much of how God feels about you, like this much.

And so we just get them all wrong, you know?

We just think it's a measure up thing and it's not.

It's it's delight, like delight.

And now, like in general, I think probably one of the most defining things about my life

is that I really do think he likes me.

And not because I've measured up.

In fact, I have done a great job bragging at everything I'm terrible at this whole podcast.

But I do believe that he loves me and delights me because he came after me.

I mean, that's what the Bible says.

I just really do believe it.

You know, for I was raised going to church every Sunday and I was raised in the Lutheran church.

And I used to go and I literally nothing, this is a little kid.

Nothing or a teenager also.

I didn't even, nothing would resonate with me, right?

At all.

And I would just sit there the whole service.

I would look for cute boys, like I would scan all the pews for cute boys.

And nothing ever resonated, but we always went every Sunday.

And then when I was older and I went off to graduate school was the first time I lived in New York City.

And I was surrounded by people in an academic world, but also just the peers I had and everything where there was not a lot of faith of any types.

But there was a lot of belief that if you believed in God, you are somehow not, you know, like, like, like, everyone I was around thought you should only believe in what you can see and prove.

And I remember I went through the season of God doubt, like really starting to doubt if he existed.

And I was then working in television news after graduate school and it really started to, I started to feel like something was missing.

And things are empty, like, all of that.

And I was, and I started seeing a therapist for the first time ever.

And I told her, and I said, like, I'm, you know, I was telling all the things, and I was about to get married.

And I said, and also, by the way, I'm doubting God exists and all this.

Now, I don't know if this therapist has any faith.

I have no idea.

But she said something to me that day, that changed everything.

She said, well, what makes you think God can't handle your doubt?

And I'm like, like her, what do you mean?

And she's like, well, let's just say like, he created the whole universe.

What makes you think he can't handle your doubt?

And she says, why don't you tell him your doubting?

Yeah, he exists and ask him to prove you wrong.

And I was like, okay.

And so that day, Jenny, so every time I would pray from that day forward, I didn't happen right away.

But it was over time, every time I'd pray, like, if I prayed for a friend who was sick or whatever was going on,

I would end my prayer, literally, I'd end my prayer by.

And by the way, God, I believe, I don't believe that you're existing.

And if you could please show up in my life and prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt,

I'd be so grateful.

And Jesus named Amen.

Like, that would be how I ended every prayer, right?

Which, which, don't you know, he was smiling so big at you.

He was like, I got you, girl.

And he did.

And let me tell you, because I was in that space of just like, there's no way this doesn't make sense.

Around me thinks I'm, you know, not that smart for believing in this and that.

And also, what about this?

And by the way, I have to say, in my soul, I believe that if Jesus were just standing right here,

like he would love every person no matter what, no matter how they vote, no matter how they pray or any of the things,

who they love, how they love.

I believe he would just love us.

So at the time when I was going through that season of God down, I was also like,

this doesn't make sense that, you know, that you have to do certain things or be a certain way to be embraced into the world's faith I was seeing.

So when I started praying that prayer, and I want to share this too, in case anyone's listening right now,

who's in that space of God down, I said to him, I was, I was like, you know, I'm doubting you exist.

And please prove me wrong.

Like beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And the number of times and the things that started happening, I mean,

and some were quiet and some were very overt and very big.

And I mean, there are stories, Jenny, where it was like something incredible happened.

And for a moment, I thought, like, oh, wow, I got lucky or this happened.

And then the person would come up to me and like, oh, actually God whispered to me to do that for you.

I'm like, what?

Get just started happening over and over and over and over in my life.

And, you know, now, you know, I have, I mean, I very rarely will doubt, will feel God down.

And there's times I, yeah, there's times I do.

But I just, you know, for the person at home, I don't know.

Just let, you know, be honest about it.

And then just say like, come into my life, show me.

Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're real, because I'm doubting you.

Yeah.

And then just like, wait and watch what happens and be open to it.

Yeah.

Because for me, that was like the big game changer.

Well, and I think we can, we can stand back and hear a lot about Christianity.

We can hear a lot about Jesus and faith and all these things and never export for ourselves.

And I would just say, I remember when my eighth grade daughter, she started just doubting everything.

And, you know, I, I almost started panicking as a parent.

But then I was like, no, no, no.

Like, this is good.

Like, you, you need to process this for yourself.

And so I just think to, don't be afraid to read the Bible for yourself.

Like, just open it.

Like, open it to John one if you don't know where to go.

And, and just start to read.

Because I think people are surprised when they read it and they see like who God is.

And it's just different than what they thought.

You know, one thing I love about technology to you, there's a lot I don't love about technology.

Yeah.

One of the things I love about technology is now there's so many great easy ways to start reading it.

And then if you don't understand it, there's, you know, great ways to understand it.

And I started the Bible recap this year.

And I love when you read for 12 minutes a day.

And then you have, you know, the nine minute recap by Tara Lee and it's like, or the six minute recap.

And it's just like, it makes it really, really digestible.

So good.

Yes, I highly recommend that too.

I feel like, I feel like the other big thing that seems to be, and I'm curious if you have this experience.

And maybe you do way more than I do because you are really, you know, you hear from so many people on their faith journey all the time.

Yeah.

One of the big things that I see is so many people confuse imperfect humans with God's perfect love.

Someone that's maybe has been hurt by a church or had a bad experience with a pastor or maybe, maybe they were invited to some type of a church gathering.

And the people they met there weren't so kind or someone's had a bad experience.

And then they somehow confuse because a pastor is not God.

Right?

Yeah.

Every one of us is an imperfect human.

Or they hear on the news that there was some scandal in a church or something like that.

And I think people confuse imperfect humans with God's perfect love.

And then they shut down from it and think that is Jesus.

And that's not.

And so what do you say when people come to you and they're like, well, this person that maybe they're a politician.

And they say they're a really strong Christian, but everything they're doing, that's not, that is not what Jesus would do.

Or they had a bad experience in the church growing up or they met someone who says they're a strong Christian, but they feel like an awful person.

Right?

What do you say to the person who says, oh, but all that?

I feel grief.

Yeah.

The hurt is real.

Yeah.

It's not easy enough just to say people are imperfect and God is perfect because that was someone that showed you God.

That was somebody that had a fact on your faith potentially and felt that betrayal and that hurt is so real in it.

And it's so hard for our minds to separate those two things.

And I would just say, God understands.

I just think, you know, you look at David's life and I mean, he had his son trying to kill him.

He had his life falling apart.

He also made a lot of really big horrible mistakes in the Bible.

The guy who wrote the Psalms, if you don't know who I'm talking about.

And you read his words and his prayers and you just see a man who wrestled with God.

You know, he, he questioned God.

He was like, why are you doing this?

Why are these people allowed to prosper?

And I'm not.

And he's questioning everything and he's bringing it all to him in a really raw way.

And that helps me because I just, I don't think it's wrong to be really angry about the way people act in the name of Jesus.

I don't think it's wrong to hold people accountable for the injustices that are happening in the name of Jesus under the church's name.

So I just, I want to say, I'm sorry.

And, and I've done it too, right?

Like, I mean, like Paul, I'm the worst at the, like, I have let people down.

I have, you know, certainly there has not been moral public failure.

But, man, just come over on a Sunday morning when we're trying to get to church.

Like, and you'd be like, that is not Jesus.

You know, so, so I am, I'm not, I'm not above it.

I am just, I want to, on behalf of people that, that have caused that hurt.

I just, I just say I'm so sorry.

And, and I also know people.

I know some of these people.

I know some of the people that have publicly their lives have been the ones that have heard everybody.

I have betrayed people.

And I, I have seen them behind the scenes.

And I have watched some repent.

And that doesn't mean they should necessarily be leading again.

But I, I have watched them be made right with God because the blood of Jesus covers everything.

And it's something that doesn't make sense to us because it's not human.

It's not the way we work.

But he really can make broken things right.

And no, for the person that's hurt, I, I just give him a chance.

Like, he is grieving with you.

Believe me, he is angry too.

You know, and, and, and things.

Justice is part of his story and how he works as well.

And so, you know, I, I just, I, I do believe that I think what I do within my own mind.

Is I just rest that I'm not him because it's like I don't want, I don't know how to sort it.

This all out.

I don't know how it could possibly all be sorted out one day.

But he promises it will be.

And, and so a wrestle.

I think you get angry, you be sad, you grieve it.

And I would just say do it with him because he's grieving too.

He's angry too.

He feels it too.

He's felt it, right?

He was killed.

He was betrayed by the people that lived with him, loved him.

He gets it.

You know, that, that comforts me.

That he, he has felt the things that I've had to feel.

What prayer would you say to the person who like wants to pray to see if they can start a relationship with Jesus.

But maybe they've never prayed before or they don't even know what to say or what to do.

This is what I do in my life.

I read, I've been on, I don't know how many college campuses and I get to pray this with students all the time.

And it's so simple.

And all you have to do is say, Jesus, I believe you're the Son of God.

I believe that you gave up your life.

For me, in my sin, I trust you.

I want to follow you.

And I want to walk with you.

And I want to know you.

Help me do that.

That's it.

That's it.

That's simple.

And that's the beginning, you know.

And it's a relationship.

I think that's what people miss.

Yeah.

You know, we think it's a religion.

It's a relationship.

It's not a explain that.

There's a lot of people are like, what do you mean?

I thought it's a religion.

It's a relationship.

Yeah, I mean.

You know, he talked about there being a new covenant.

And Isaiah, I believe, was the first time it was mentioned.

And this new covenant would come.

And that the law would no longer be written on tablets of stone.

It would be written on people's heart.

And there would be this new way that God could be with man

and the dividing line of sin would no longer separate them.

Because we really do want to just God.

We don't want a God that just tolerates everything.

We want a God that actually is going to deal with stuff.

Right?

Like, you don't want there to be traffickers of young children

that are not dealt with severely.

That would not be a good God.

So we actually love that he's a just God.

We just don't want to be just to me.

Right?

We just don't want to be the one that his justice is coming against.

And so the way that we are made right with him,

that we do not get the wrath of God, that we do not get the punishment of God,

is because of what Jesus did on cross.

And so when we trust that and we go, yes.

And it's hard because we all want to believe like, oh, you know,

there's, yes, that's true.

But this is true too.

And this is true too.

This is true too.

And I would just say to that, I get that.

Like, we live in a world where that would be great.

Like, if all of that was true, but I'm not God.

Like, I don't get to decide.

And so for me, the way I've viewed this is just,

it is not my job to go around and fix everybody and judge everybody

and make everything right.

But I do want to know what God says.

And I want to know who he is.

And what he says is, I'm the way the truth in the life.

And nobody's going to get to the Father except me.

Feels narrow and that could feel mean and that could feel horrible.

Except that the way there is not measuring up.

The way there is grace, by grace through faith.

That's it.

And so, yes, it is Jesus.

But our means of knowing Jesus and God is not religion.

It's not measuring up.

It's not doing everything right.

It's why I like Christianity best because it's the only one

where I don't have to measure up.

Every other religion, you have to do these things to hit the mark.

Jesus is like, I'll do it for you.

The mark has to be hit, but I'll do it for you.

And so, the grace that I feel because of him is that,

yeah, I'll keep messing up.

Yeah, pastors I know and love are having affairs right now.

Yeah, churches are broken, but trail is happening.

Yes.

And Jesus paid the price so that we could be right with God.

And I watch these kids, you know, they're, they want God

because they've had the whole world and they're so empty.

And they have no hope and they are so hard on themselves.

And they have, I mean, there's not anything they haven't known or tried.

That's, that's this generation.

They have it all.

And then they hear that, Jesus loves me.

He's not disappointed in me.

He wants a relationship with me.

Like they can't believe it.

I have boys, seven foot tall, walk up to me, tears in their eyes, hug me.

I didn't know God loved me.

That's what they say.

I didn't know God loved me.

Oh my God, man.

I was like, he really does.

I think you're probably his favorite buddy.

Like, you know, I think we all are.

But I just, I just think it changes everything.

And we just, we don't understand.

We don't know.

Because that's not the way the world works.

It was hard to even imagine.

I love seeing you in the back of a pickup trek,

like on a college campus.

Like on baptisms.

Yeah.

Can you talk about all of that that's happening.

It feels almost like a whole, like it, you just feel it.

And I'm only seeing it on Instagram.

Yeah.

Can you talk about what's happening across college campuses

and all the work that you're doing.

Yeah.

And so fun.

So in 2018, I remember it was a Texas A&M.

And I, I just opened up, we were in arena.

Okay.

This is thousands of kids.

And I said something about, you know, if you just,

why don't you just yell out, like whatever it is that,

that you're struggling with.

And I mean, people got real.

Like they were yelling in an arena in front of their roommates

and friends.

Abortion.

I just had abortion.

Sexual addiction.

Pornography.

I mean, they're just yelling it out, you know.

And I'm going, what just happened?

Like what is going on?

And since then, I don't even know how many campuses I've gotten to be on.

Recently, I've gotten to be on campuses with a ministry called Unite.

And that we've been on about 20 campuses.

And it's just been amazing, like people want God.

And it's not complicated for them.

Because they aren't necessarily wounded.

They just never knew.

You know, they just never knew.

And they're here in it.

And it's hope to them.

And it is a relationship that they're getting.

And it feels, it feels really precious and sincere.

And you know, I mean, suicide.

I mean, that's in the backdrop of this.

There's so many kids that are struggling with suicidal thoughts.

And that hopelessness, I think, is pretty rampant in general across campuses.

And so I think what Jesus means to people right now on these campuses,

and specifically with that generation,

is that he loves me right where I am.

And I can have a relationship and be made right.

And I mean, their lives are changing.

You know, not all of them, but a lot of them.

I mean, I'll see them a year later.

And they're now like ministering to people.

You know, like they were wasted.

Some of them literally come wasted.

Like they're in the audience.

Like they got drugged there by a friend.

And now they're like doing this.

And it's just, it could only be God.

You know, you just, you're watching it and you're like,

it could only be God.

But I will say this about baptism.

And some people are like, what is, what does that even mean?

And it's a Christian practice.

It's a beautiful picture of when you come into relationship with God.

He calls us to baptize people.

And it's so cool.

He's so unique.

He likes, I love that he likes to tell a good story.

And he wants to make something unforgettable.

Because when somebody gets saved, you put them underwater.

So odd.

You know, you put them underwater and you lift them up.

But all these kids, they come up and I go,

why are you doing this tonight?

And they say to me, because I want to be clean.

And they're going underwater.

And they come up and they feel cleaner.

It's so sweet that he would do it that way.

And so, you know, I always tell them how he say,

don't forget the feeling of coming up

and the cold water washing off over you.

Because that is the feeling that we need sometimes.

You know, where it feels like we're dirty.

It feels like yesterday.

I just felt, blah.

I just felt sinful.

I felt selfish.

I felt embarrassed.

I felt all these things.

And when you think about that, that he makes you new.

But he is just beautiful.

So that's happening everywhere.

It's wild.

Thousands and thousands of kids.

Pretty fun.

I recently interviewed the episode hasn't come out yet.

But I recently interviewed Arthur Brooks, who is...

Like, he's amazing.

Yeah, yeah.

So Arthur Brooks teaches the top class at Harvard on happiness

and his new book on the meaning of life.

One of the things he talks about is that we're just in this

unhappiness epidemic.

Yeah, we are.

We just feel empty.

And they feel like something's missing.

And when you look at the data, especially on, you know,

anyone in their 30s and under.

But really it's now starting to be everyone.

We're just feel like something's missing.

And he goes deep into our left brain and our right brain

and how everything with technology

and also with like a striver world.

And it's like how we're...

And now AI is just like we're not in the part of our brain

that gets, you know, ignited when we are in faith.

Yeah.

Or feeling love.

Yeah.

You know, those kind of things.

And we're no longer even tapping that part of our brain

and people are just feeling more empty than ever

and feeling like they're lacking meaning.

And I think that the need for people to connect in person.

Yeah.

And also to connect with their creator.

Yeah.

And to be...

I think that, you know, and what I loved about, you know,

his entire world is research based and everything else.

And he was saying so many people are now seeking the answers

to everything on AI or Google.

And that we're starting to be programmed

where we can just solve everything on Google or AI.

But you can't.

Because people are feeling emptier than ever.

Yeah.

And they're feeling lonelier than ever.

And they're feeling more hopeless than ever.

And you look at all the data, as you mentioned,

even on suicide rates and all the things.

And it's just like, it's an epidemic.

And so, you know, the work that you're doing

and continue to do is so powerful.

And going to college campuses on top of everything else,

you're doing things.

People are just feeling like some things missing.

Yeah.

And I think that, you know, so many people

who have maybe not explored the idea of meaning in their life

or purpose or whatever, but they're like,

my job is, you know, my purpose and whatever.

But now, AI is going to impact almost every industry.

And I think in the next five to 10 years,

the need to be in relationship,

whether it's with Jesus or with your friend,

because you're having a bad day,

the need for relationship.

It's everything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We are craving connection.

And I would just say this, that we have to fight this.

Right?

I worked on a book called Finder People.

And yes.

Oh, my gosh.

That was the saddest.

When I was researching that book, I was so discouraged.

Because I thought, is it really this bad?

Are we really the loneliest generation

that has ever lived on earth?

That is the saddest thing.

And we are set up that way, right?

So, when you think of every generation before,

it's just about, especially prior to the Industrial Revolution,

but honestly, before the technological revolution,

people lived in villages.

They took care of each other.

They depended on each other for agriculture.

They depended on each other for the blacksmith in town.

The community had to have each other to survive.

So just by the nature, it wasn't like something they had to do

or think about.

It was something they were, and it was how they lived.

So we really are.

It's hard.

We really are in a hard time to live.

And it really is the most important key

to being happy, connected, peaceful.

It's being known by God, by people.

That's it.

That's the goal.

But I think Shane lies all of that we pull back,

and now we don't have to come out,

because we can just move, or we can just change jobs,

or we can just, you know, people couldn't do that.

For every generation, they would never move

more than, you know, five miles, 20 miles from where they were born

because you couldn't do it.

And so it's just, we've got to be aware

that this is not the way we were built.

This is not what we were designed for.

And we've got to find it pretty hard.

When it comes to finding your people,

what for the person listening is like, I want to find my people?

Yeah.

What would you say to them?

Well, you're not alone that you feel alone, for sure.

That is common.

What I would say is that this is a,

this has to be a conviction.

This has to be something that you're like, I need this.

I'm going to get it.

Now, all the introverts are like, I don't need it.

I'm fine.

I love my robe.

I love Netflix.

I don't need you.

I want you to realize that every time you turn on a show,

you're watching people have community,

that you're actually craving.

That's why you like the show.

There's not one show.

Even that movie with Tom Hanks, where he's on an island

by himself in the whole movie.

He's by himself.

He talks to a volleyball.

Like, even that is communal in its own weird way.

You know, there's nothing you're really watching

where somebody's alone.

It's true.

It is the worst form of punishment,

solitary confinement.

There is nothing worse than being alone.

And so, and I'm not talking about every minute of every day,

but you've got to be known, and you've got to be seen.

And so, I really pray, and I have hoped that there's a

massive change in the world, the way we view this,

because it's going to take that.

It's going to take a revolution.

It's going to take us seeing that this is the reason

we're so unhappy, and choosing connection and people.

I mean, we moved to a neighborhood where the houses

were really close together in a big city,

and I just pray, Lord, give me five friends and five miles.

Super basic.

I need five friends and these five miles,

because I knew if it was 10, we wouldn't do last-minute dinner,

like we did last night.

My friend didn't.

And so, I pray that, and God brought it,

but it was work.

It was like dating, right?

Like, you have to like, I don't like this part.

Okay, three days, and I'm like, no, you know, no, no.

And you have to give people a chance,

and then two years in, they want to quit you.

You know, and that's real.

And you've invested all this energy and time,

and then you don't want to do it again.

So, it is a mess, it is hard, and we've got to have it,

and we've got to choose it, even though it's hard.

I have friends and five miles.

That's good.

That's good.

Not everybody can have that, but it's a start.

Yeah, and proximity does help.

Yeah, and exactly what you're saying, you know,

I'm newer to where I live.

And I knew one person moving here,

and so I'm in that space of, you know,

and my close, my two best friends are one of over 30 years,

one of over 15, but they live in Pennsylvania,

across the country.

And so I'm like, okay, so I'm making a whole lot of new friends,

right now my kids are in school,

but I'm in that process of, you know,

because I also believe it's so important to make sure

that who you are around, you know,

that you feel good when you're around,

and you can still be real and wrong,

and cry your eyes on, do all the things,

but that you feel they want the best for you,

and sometimes you see things over time, right?

You say, oh, do they show up for you when, you know,

when it's a bad day, not just a good day.

Do they, you know, are they real friends?

Are they deal friends?

Are they, just like all of it, right?

You kind of learn over time,

and so I'm in that space right now,

and I know exactly what you're talking about where,

you know, then you'll have one friend where you're like,

wait, are they distancing themselves?

Like, yep, all of it, right?

And it takes work, and it takes work.

But it's doable, and we've got to do it.

And when, you know, I always say,

because the number one question I get about friendship

is this question, and it is heartbreaking,

but I always initiate, nobody initiates back.

Or I reach out all the time, and nobody invites me.

And I would just say,

the only way you won't be lonely is to initiate.

You have to be the one.

And, and you have to remember,

and believe that if five people say no,

the six one might say yes,

and the six one might need a friend,

and it's like you just keep going.

And if, if you knew that,

that three months from now,

and 17 knows from now,

you would make the beginning of the best friend

you could have for the next 10 years.

Would you do it?

You probably would.

But you usually stop after three.

Maybe after one, you know, after one rejection,

after one, it just feels like nobody wants to be friends with me.

You know, I always say,

if it really feels that way, first pay for a counselor,

because maybe you need to pay a friend

to find out that there's some things you need to know about yourself.

You know, we all need to know things about ourselves.

But probably it's just that you just need to keep trying.

And you need to find somebody that needs you as much as you need them.

And it's just so important today.

I feel like this conversation is, is really new,

in the sense of it's easy for people to think,

oh, you know, virtual friends or social media

or soon AI is great.

Like it's, oh, come on.

We all just say no.

Yes.

No, yes.

We are not going to be friends with robots.

No, not in any real way that will fill our soul.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It will leave you feeling empty just the way

if you only rely on social media desk

or if you only rely on watching other people communicate on television.

Yes.

But don't have any real connection.

And I think that, yeah, that's so good.

I love you sharing that because I think a lot of people have tried once or twice.

Maybe they haven't even got to three times and they're like,

okay, I'm just not going to make friends as an adult.

And I can do without it.

Right.

That's not true.

Right.

That is a lie.

And you need people.

Fundamentally, the way you were built, your DNA,

every scientist would tell you that, every theologian would tell you that.

You were built to need people.

Even the introverts, we all need people.

And you've said a couple of times, and I want to bring this up,

how important it is that we feel known and we feel seen.

Yeah.

So can you share why to the person listening going, oh, no, no, I'm an introvert.

I'm good.

I got my blanket.

I got my, my real housewives or my cat or whatever it is.

Not that I know anyone that does that.

Yeah.

But, yeah.

Nor have I ever not.

No.

Neither of us.

But talk about the importance of that feeling,

even for the introvert listening, that you need, you need to be known and seen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My daughter's an introvert.

And we're a whole house of more extroverted people.

And it's hard for her, like just to jump in there and do it.

She'd just assume, you know, be cozy at home.

And I watched her.

And she just, last night, I came home and she was out with her friends.

And I was like, yes.

And she's got plenty of friends.

It's hard to chew.

You know, it's just, it feels good to just be in and be cozy.

And I get it.

I'm that way sometimes.

She came home, bouncing off the walls.

You know, telling me stories about all of them.

And so it's like, yeah.

It feels like maybe if I stayed in my room, I would be happier.

It'd be easier.

Sure.

It would be.

But there's a part of you that's just dormant in a sleep until somebody else wakes it up.

And there's part of you that is bored and missing life.

Just because you're scared to go out there and live it.

And so I would just say, keep showing up.

Keep doing it.

And it is, it is, it's like a muscle.

You just gotta, you just gotta practice it.

But to the introvert that's like, I don't need it.

It's just not scientifically true.

Just speak to the science of it.

There is nothing more damaging to your health than isolation.

They have ranked alcohol, drugs.

I mean, all of it.

The most detrimental thing to your health.

If you're just motivated out of like facts is isolation.

So you need connection.

You just physically need it.

And I think you like it more than you think.

I think most introverts I know they want connection.

They just want it in smaller doses.

They want one or two deep, great conversations.

And that's great.

That works.

It doesn't need to be a party.

Find what works for you.

It doesn't have to be every social that you can include it to.

You don't have to go join, you know, a bowling team for goodness sake.

You just find the way you connect with one or two people.

And that's enough.

When you say God creates our brain, and one of your best selling books is all about our thoughts

and getting out of our head and all of those things.

What would you say to someone listening about that and about the power?

Yeah.

Oh, I mean, this is such good news.

It's such good news for everything we're talking about today that the way our brains were built

is that we have the power to interrupt our thoughts.

I didn't know that for so long.

Which is so funny to me because it's such a basic important thing to understand.

I think all first graders should be taught this in school.

You have power over your thoughts.

Don't have as much power over your emotions.

I mean, if you were feeling really sad today and you were crying to me,

and I said, Jamie, don't be sad.

That would not be very helpful, you know, just wouldn't.

But if you are sitting there thinking the same negative thought over and over again,

which most of us are, the research says that 80% of our thoughts are negative every day.