The Man Breaking Rugby's Biggest Transfer Stories ft. Neil Fissler

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Quaker, bring out the good. Welcome back to the HG Rugby Podcast. Now,

everybody who knows me knows that I love a bit of gossip. I love to peek behind the curtain

and see who's doing what with who and where. And the guest that I've got joining me today

is the journalist who perhaps most loves telling Rugby fans what's going on behind the scenes that

perhaps some people would rather you didn't know. I'm delighted to be joined by Rugby journalist

Neil Fisler. Neil, thank you so much for joining the show. You're very, very, very welcome,

you. Thank you very much. So, I know you best from writing for your Fisler confidential

for Rugby Pass. Is that the only place that you currently work for or you across multiple

different outlets? No, I'm exclusively to Rugby Pass. I think I've been my third year now.

It's absolutely flying by. But no, handcuffed, shackled, whatever you want to call it.

You have under an exclusive contract, are they? I guess we'll start at the beginning.

How did you get into doing Rugby journalism? I kind of fell into rugby. I must have made,

I've been a journalist since the late 80s. But for the last, I guess the last four, five,

six years, I've been exclusively doing rugby in it. Well, that's great to know. So,

when you get in, I'm sure there's a lot of people going to be listening to this who perhaps

are interested in getting into rugby journalism or something. For sport journalism,

do you need a degree? Do you need the qualifications to get in these days?

When I did it, when down the source were roaming the earth in the late 80s, early 90s,

now it was kind of you'd apply for a job and they'd probably give you a go at it.

Now, I see there's a great organisation called News Associates. If anybody's on LinkedIn,

look them up. They run sports journalism courses in Wimbledon or from their offices in Wimbledon.

Very, very, very good organisation. It's just a question of, I think, just keep on knocking that

on doors and maybe volunteer at your local club, get a little bit of experience.

You have a non-matter case in people working for free, which I shouldn't really be doing,

because it just encourages people not to pay. But, yeah, just don't give up.

Develop contacts. Your contacts book or your mobile phone now is your best mate.

Develop contacts. Just keep on trying. Don't give up if it's your dream. Just go and seize the day.

You're only living this life once, so go and do what you really want to do.

You'll get there eventually. It's not an easy process.

You might suffer quite a few knockbacks, but now you join a club call, a club Zoom,

or the Premiership Club, to have a club Zoom. And, yeah, surprising, the number of people

that pop up work him for websites, who start websites, who start blogs, who you've

been able to do have started podcasts, which is an amazing annual innovation, isn't it?

It means that you can find a way in and maybe where having used and been blocked in the past,

you get to create a name for yourself. And, yeah, just don't give up. Just start a podcast,

start a blog. Eventually, if you're any good, you'll get picked up.

Well, that was something that I was going to come and ask you about was how the space has changed

since you started. Back in the day, it would have been the written press, maybe a bit of radio,

maybe a bit of TV for the big matches. But now, how is the newsroom changed around you?

Is it more full, more empty, more online? What are the big shifts that you've noticed,

particularly, I guess, post-COVID? Nobody goes into a newsroom or one not that I know of

anywhere. I think they might still do on the times in the telegraph, but rugby journalism has changed.

There aren't that many staff jobs anymore. You've only got two or three newspapers that cover

it to any extent. So, it is the job of the websites to report and blogs and blogs and all kinds

of weird and wonderful inventions. TikTok, not that I know too much about TikTok. I'm a bit too old

to get into that, but YouTube, all kinds of weird and wonderful things. And I think it's quite good

because back in the day, as you said, you just had newspapers, local, regional,

occasionally. I guess you'd get something on the radio. In fact, there wasn't even 24 hour

news. Well, there was just a bulletin at the end of the news, a sports bulletin. Rugby special,

I think, was the one when I was growing up. I can't ever remember anything apart from rugby

special and the six nations. I don't think you saw much rugby union apart from that, did you?

You'd have to tell me I'm afraid I'm very much of the new online generation, so I couldn't say

about that. So, I've been to a few newsrooms. I've done media games a couple of times this season,

and I was kind of surprised at maybe the, there was fewer people there than I was expecting,

put it that way. And is that, you know, I've heard rumors, well, not rumors. I've seen journalists

in places like Australia and stuff talking about how staff are being cut and things. Like you said,

there aren't really staff jobs anymore. So is it kind of a shrinking space in terms of the old

professionals and it's more the amateurs that are starting to get into it now?

I think the problem is, in this country, if it is a problem, football's king, especially in newspapers

or on newspapers now, football's king. Rugby struggles to get any kind of column inches,

unless you're on one of the big broadsheets or the male, but you look at the sun mirror.

It struggles, doesn't it? That's, for honest, express. So there isn't ever shrinking pool.

I must admit, I don't cover games anymore. The people that were around, everybody gets

older, don't they? And dies off and moves on. But I should imagine that, that it is,

that it probably looks quite old, press rooms. There aren't that many people. It's the same old

faces. So now it's a, yeah, but it's a shame in the way because I think that club rugby union

deserves to be covered a lot better and pick up a lot more traction. But then again,

I don't think clubs in the past have helped themselves. They've almost had media prevention officers

and directors are rugby that were old school and don't want you talking suppliers. When I first

started doing rugby union for rugby times, I used to pitch up to wasps on a Tuesday morning

and they'd have sofas. I don't know if you've ever been to the old swifer that having you

grand. They were sofas in the reception and you'd be sat there chatting away to Lawrence

Laleo about nothing. Danny Sipriani would walk past with his latest books. So you'd talk to him

and you'd develop relationships. And not the minute. I think it's quite difficult to develop

those kind of relationships. And there's still relationships that you hold on to now because when

they move on, you're still staying in contact with them. But then again, I think professional

sport has evolved, doesn't it? You try and cover football now and I can remember when I first

went, you'd pitch up to a training ground and when I was sent to them by the old today newspaper

and things like that, you just pitch up and you just grab people. Now it's very, very different.

They might give you a player and you might get 10 minutes with the manager and some clubs even

dictate who come into their press conferences and it's changed. But that's what money does I

guess and I think that I think that clubs have got a responsibility to grow again. They're getting

it right. So I think it's not as bad as it was when I think I was banned by after the clubs in

the premiership that didn't appreciate my rumours. Well, we'll come onto that later and I do want to

ask you all about rugby transfers and rumours and things like that. And do you ever get in trouble?

Here's a question. So I'll press you for some stories when we get to that point. But before I do,

just kind of last one on sort of the where journalism in rugby is going and not just rugby,

but generally, do you have any views on the use of AI in journalism these days?

You don't, I'm slowly being triggered. I'll give you a very quick story. I think earlier in

the season, somebody put a story through AI and yeah, probably from my poor use of grammar.

And it came out that a club was interested in the player and they weren't.

And it, because it changes things, doesn't it?

And yeah, it got picked up. I kind of find myself in a little bit of trouble, but yeah, don't use it

people. Just don't use it. It's dangerous. And for me, I can, I'd like to think that I can

write. So I don't need to use it. But just develop your style. You don't need it. It's, yeah,

it's a lazy way, isn't it? You stick something through AI. It takes what a click of a button.

And all of a sudden, that story that you think, oh, yeah, brilliant. Yeah, this story is great,

but it can be full of inaccuracies. And don't use it. You very, very quickly get caught out.

The one that I was taught to write a story isn't the way that it comes out in, in, in AI.

Well, we'll get into more of the stories that you write in a moment. But before we do that,

I just want to remind people that if they are enjoying the show they are watching or listening

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Okay, Neil. Let's now get into the really meaty one. Let's get into talking about rugby transfers.

So would it be fair to call you the rugby for Bitsio Romano?

It's been said a couple of times. I think I need a I think I need a I think I need a catchphrase

down there. Yeah, it doesn't need say let's go or something. Here we go. Yeah, here we go. Yeah,

yeah, but I think I need something slightly more catchy. So if anybody else got any ideas,

let us know more. But yeah, no, yeah, but like comparison has been made. He's obviously making a lot

more money. Okay, so I'm going to bring up a bit of window dressing just for our YouTube viewers.

So they got something to stare at. So this is this is your rugby past page. You're on the phone very

good kind of, um, stick, I guess, with there, with they're always talking to people. And you do

the officially confidential where you're the one who kind of talks through what the latest rumors are,

what the kind of gossip is going on. Who's talking to who? You know, you've got there about a

monster looking to get, um, sorry, thank you. Abraham's looking to leave monster. Obviously,

there'll be a lot of stories about Newcastle Red Bulls. We'll talk about that in a little bit.

But I guess the main question Neil is, how do you find out about all of these rugby

Rugmas? How do I find out? Uh, I've got a, uh, I've got an extensive network of contacts,

I think, and uh, people forever telling you things and there might be something that there might

not be something that contrary to popular belief, I don't just believe anything I get told,

it get, get told so much. So you've got to really sort, sort through the weeks, the week from the

chat, I guess. And I've got people are, yeah, but I'm probably coming close to being done for

stalking, I think, I think so. Yeah, but I'm constantly, I'm constantly messaging people, um,

yeah, well, I'm up expecting a knock from Devon and Cornwall police one, they say, you know,

you've been stalking these, yeah, for these people, they're still a great thrill in finding out

a good, a good, a good rumor that you know's going to happen, like,

fairly enough. I was a bit like onto this call, because, uh, because, uh,

sail announced to sign in a Christchurch this morning. And, uh, one that I broke two or three weeks

ago. So I had to write that for rugby pass. Uh, and yeah, it's just basically, it's just,

it's just making as many contacts as you can. I've found that since I've been at rugby pass,

before on the rugby paper, they only wanted Prem rumors. But now I've been given the whole world

as a playground. Well, and it's absolutely wonderful. You find yourself, uh, speaking to people

in South Africa or Australia, anywhere, France, absolutely anywhere, anywhere where you can get

a bit of gossip, a bit of a room of from, uh, just go for it. It's much, much better than working

for a living. I must. So why is it? Do you go around and do you like text people? Do you just

send out a group text like anything to day lads? You know, anything that you're hearing,

anything on the great fine or do, to sometimes people, maybe agents send you something and say,

hey, would you mind putting this in an article for me? There's a little bit of everything.

I speak, I speak to people at clubs, uh, people all over the place, agents, agents, uh,

probably a great source. Uh, sometimes they want to talk to you, sometimes they don't want to talk to

you. Uh, of obviously it's a professional game and, uh, their number one obligation is to get

their clients the best deal. So, yeah, and clubs aren't shy. Believe you me, clubs will,

clubs will come to you and say, oh, uh, this player, that player, uh, can you talk,

up this player and it's here. There's no exact science to it. You wake up in the morning,

you've hopefully got a couple of stories and you just get on with it. I think that people

enjoy it. I think that people want to know where people are going. Some people don't like it,

but that's up to them, isn't it? But there's an awful lot of people that do like it. And I think

that, I think that clubs might not admit it, but I think they like it as well. There's certainly,

certainly, some clubs when you join these media calls and somebody asks about a transfer

and the DLR also will ask him, he knows what's got to be. Things like that gets a bit of,

but no, it gives a great thing. It gets people talking about it, doesn't it? It creates a bit of a

talking point around a game like Chun-Za. We all knew it was happening, but they wouldn't announce

it last week because Sail will play an exeser. So they didn't want it so they hailed it back and

seal this week. But it creates a bit of a talking point around the game. Would he play out? This week,

I don't know when this is going out, but you've got Sail playing Bath and is Dupree going to

play because he's playing for, he's obviously playing for Sail at the minute, but he's going to

Bath next season, isn't it? Clubs are getting more professional. This stuff isn't done at the

last minute. The great thing, I think it was Phil Daugson earlier this week was talking about the

process of how they go about recruiting, how they use data to form a long list of people,

of certain things they're looking for, a ball carrier if you're replacing, I think it was

the leadership for Courtney Lawles and things like that. They use a lot of data, which football

clubs do? Brighton and Brentford have been leading that way for years, but now rugby clubs have

started getting into it. They'll use the data to come up with a long list and then they'll

slowly whistle it down to what they're looking for. It's absolutely fantastic. I think clubs are

now slowly getting the head around that this is a way to grow the game and to get people talking

about it because you can only listen to so many conversations about, you probably enjoy it,

but how long the balls imply and the different and juggling techniques and things like this,

but it's just another facet. Football have got the head around it. Exactly.

Yeah, but I did football rumours. I did a lot of football transfer stuff when I was on the express

and I believe you mean it is a different world to the one that we get in rugby.

In what way? Just more, more aggressive, more money. Manning, everything, I was given a story

about a player going to join Tottenham, Sido Berihina. We put it on the sport,

so they put it on the back page and I was assured that this deal would be done in 48 hours.

This deal would be done in, so we said, Berihina to join Spurs in 48 hours and what happens

is the Spurs chairman decided to move the goalposts at the last minute and try to restructure the deal.

I don't think I could go on to X for about three more than one of the wins because it was the

mother of all parlons and that was the first time that I'd experienced that and it was a Naya

and when you get told in rugby that you're talking rubbish and you don't know what you're doing

and all of this is absolutely nothing compared with a football pile on.

Well, yes, so can you bring you back to rugby now and talk about if you'd be willing,

talk about one that you got wrong or one that someone sent you a story and you thought it was

genuinely in good faith and whatever the radar was off that day and it turned out to be untrue.

I can't remember any specifics. There have been one. I always used to say that I'll get one

a season badly wrong and you just have to hold your hands up. There was one earlier this season,

it wasn't one of mine but DeGlamville Bath was linked with Exeter and I knew that it wasn't

happening and the rumor picked up that he was going but I knew it wasn't so that's one from

this season but it wasn't one of mine. I can't think of any specific ones. I've probably put them

into a compartment in the back of my mind. Okay, so on that one then, so the example that's

brings to my mind is that a couple of weeks ago there was rumours about Buundiaki, Jameson

Gibson Park and I think a couple of other Irish guys who were out their central contract with

Ireland was coming to an end. It was kind of put out that their CVs were doing the rounds and then

two weeks later it was announced that they'd resigned with the IRFU. A lot of people would have

interpreted that as an agent just trying to strengthen their hand on the negotiating table.

When that kind of thing happens, what are you sensing when you get that kind of a story?

That was actually pretty accurate. Gibson Park's CV has been doing the rounds of France since

last summer and they were trying to give the funny thing with Irish players is they always get

linked with French clubs and French clubs have gotten onto this now. You speak to anybody at

midi or a club and they've realised that they're just used for negotiation because they've got

the money so they go. Yeah, and to shake the to shake club the union into maybe offering them a

contract a little bit better contract than they normally would. So they were doing the rounds.

Whether or not they were the left is open to debate. I think that I was told I don't know how

through this here but one of my Irish contacts told me that Gibson Park had agreed a contract six

months ago with Ireland. Yeah, right. That it was just that they wanted to release it after the six

nations. It doesn't help that I think that during the six nations he did media and didn't kind of

dismiss the rumours but there's always something there in them. Yeah, if it's just

clubs will start looking now for people to come in at the end of the next season. So CVs are

sends out well in advance. The agents will send out huge lists of players they've got out of

a contract. There's generally something in it. Yeah, but I know it might not come across that way.

It might come across that genuinely you can only go by your information. A club will deny it.

I've known there was a standing joke a few years ago that if I wrote about for him when they

denied it it was going to happen. Well, rassing 92 like that with Owen Farrell they denied they

were signing him and then they denied he was leaving and both of those things happened pretty soon

after. So yes, so was I say never believe the denials. Yeah, sometimes a club is genuinely not

interested in the player. I think I'd heard that sail were looking at Lavani and I think they

were but then but then I think they got tunes are at the last minute so weren't interested

and I think all rugby had picked up. In fact, I think he's on the club. I think he's on the

done deals. So when sail had signed somebody, I saw Lavani on there. I thought, yeah, you have

a wrote that and I thought, oh, well, I must have missed the announcement. Yeah, well, if you do,

yeah, well, that's one I can put my hands up to. You said, yeah, you're asking about ones that

haven't come off. Yeah, it's just come to me and I got a lot of fun calls from an agent and

say also, we haven't signed him as yeah, like I and up just take the line out the story. Yeah,

one that going back to the island ones ones that's not kind of come out yet is James Lowe. He's

been linked with leaving and they've announced a load of other signatures but he wasn't amongst them.

Do you have any kind of insight on that one? Again, I think he was somebody who was doing the

rounds and he's doing the rounds. It's gone a bit quiet on that one. I would have thought that

if it was done and he was staying that they might have announced it but but then again,

they, yeah, they delay announcements for all kinds of things don't they? Yeah, they like a

wrath of announcements around when they start releasing season ticket prices for next season

and things like that. So the stuff that you reported on months ago that you forget about,

especially you've got a minute. I don't think to lose of officially announced man and

shallow yet. No. And they were talking about it in the six nations like, oh, he's been for

to lose next season like on the BBC and stuff but I don't think it's officially announced.

No, I don't think it is. I think that they've probably got they've probably got

some announcement planned. There might be an agreement. They might want to do it around

around when they release season tickets. They might not want to upset players ahead of Europe.

It's all kinds of things but yeah, we can't just shrug your shoulders and think I'll just

hurry up and announce it and then we can move on from it. Another kind of room with it kind of

again, like we said before, exploded and then got a big denial was Andy Farrell to Sarasense.

Was that another case of someone in Ireland trying to strengthen their negotiating position?

It was quite unusual for Sarasense to come out and deny that so strongly. What have you kind of

heard on that one? I heard it was a done deal. Really? But then again, yeah, but then again,

I people tell me something's a done deal three times a day but whether or not it was a done deal.

I think there was certainly interest there. I think that I personally thought the teller was that

they've only signed up Dr. Venza for one year, isn't there? You can see why they'd go after him.

There have been lots of rumours will he won't he still be in Ireland post the World Cup?

He seems happy over there but also you get rumours that it's quite like to come back and him and

Erwin come in at the club and yeah, the denial didn't surprise me. It was a very strong denial but

the people that were riding it, they're not often that wrong. So it's a very strange one. There

have been lots of rumours about Ireland. Will Rona Nogara go back there after the World Cup because I

think that coincides with his La Rochelle contract running out and he's never quite committed. I know

there have been discussions about is he still going to be there next year and things like that.

You have another great one is Gregor Tangsend. Yeah, a new castle. My information is that

yeah, I think it's an open secret that there isn't agreement there for post World Cup.

I think it's probably one of the, I think it'll turn out to be one of the worst kept secrets.

Well, that was one of the ones where I can't remember where I saw it first but

they denied it. Townsend denied it or someone pooped it and a load of other journalists all came

out on social media and said no, we've all been, we've all heard this and like you said, it's an

open secret so you shouldn't have denied it in the way that you did. Yeah, yeah, I don't know why

you'd have to ask a club PR expert why they denied it but I think it's probably,

I think it's probably one of the worst kept secrets in running it, isn't it?

The new castle has surrounded themselves with his loyalists, subordinates and they've got

a new castle's got it, we have to call them now. Yeah, basically and I think it's an open secret,

isn't it? But I think sometimes things come out too early. Yeah, and that is definitely one that

came out too early. I think after Scottlin's first match in the Six Nations, you'd got pretty,

pretty sure odds that he might not have lasted till the end of it. Fans probably get more excited

and I'll do about them. It's just a story that you got to break. My day kicks off of the

refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym, pre-get pickup, back onto meal prep,

time for my fire session shift. One more Celsius gotta keep the lights on. When the three alarm hits,

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best work. Learn more at Microsoft.com slash M365 co-pilot. They say you should learn something new

every day. Like how you should only drink Yeagermeister at zero degrees Fahrenheit. Ice cold,

like those frozen cavemen they find, which makes you wonder, what would a caveman think of Yeagermeister?

Well, if you served it warm, he'd probably throw it in your face, say,

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that's cold. Drink responsibly, Yeagermeister LaCure 35% alcohol by volume imported by

Master Yeagermeister US White Plains, New York. What about one where you got it and you

someone sent it to you and you went straight away? No, that's Bollocks. What's one that you clearly

went? No, that's a massive story, but I actually don't believe it for a second. Ben Cohen's a sale.

Right. Yeah. He signed for sale at the back end of his career.

I think, and I didn't believe it. And there'd been a couple. There'd been a couple this season that

that you've looked at. I can't remember them specifically, but you think, is that going to happen?

George Martin was one. He came very close to joining a sale this year. Then I think, I think,

I think, I think they went back to, to use him to top up deals elsewhere and things like that.

Well, sale have been very active in this recruitment period haven't they? They've probably

them and Newcastle have been the two that have most on the recruiting. Obviously we know about

Newcastle announcing what every day it feels like, but sale have been the one where it's kind of been,

they've been actively recruiting. Alex Sanderson has given loads of press conferences to talk

about how much money he's got to spend. And it feels like they've missed out on quite a lot of targets

so far. Yeah, Alex was very brave, I think, in coming out and making it known he's ambition.

For sale. Yeah, it's something that you have obviously, as a, you have as a journalist and

and somebody who deals in gossip and rumors that I think it was great. I thought it was absolutely

so brave and such a, such a good thing, such a refreshing thing. Come out and say your ambitious

want to sign these players and that players, the danger is of course, as we were talking about

George Martin then, that clubs will come in more agents or start a conversation. I know they

got quite a long way down the road with Chandler Cunningham Sachs. And I think for some reason or

another, I think it was used to spark Harley Quinn's into life and to offer a contract, a better

contract. But then, but if you've got ambition, shout it and say it, they've become a little bit

more like football, people talking about it. And George Martin, I think they thought they had him.

And then, I think they were beaten to it. There were a couple of other players that I know they

were very, very close to sign it. And for whatever reason, they ended up staying. Again, I think it

was that they've been used quite a bit. And they're not shy in saying that I think Newcastle

have been responsible across the league for boosting people's values and wages. Absolutely.

On tracks. But yeah, that Red Bull, that Red Bull project is an interesting one. I think they're

struggling to sign the caliber of player they want it as I. They thought it was going to be a

little bit easier than it was. They're going to come along with a big pot of money. And I think

say you'll have found out if you've got a big pot of money, you can't always spend it.

Another one like that, how real was R360? How we had loads of stories about

English and nationals having pre-contracts or pre-free contracts or whatever it was.

And there was a lot of noise in the media about it. How real was that impact in rugby transfers?

I've got to be careful here because rugby passes owned by World Rugby. But I think

there was an intention there. Whether or not it was ever realistic, I think it's probably more

the point. They definitely signed up England players on pre-contracts.

100% they signed up. I know of five, six England players that signed up to R360.

Don't ask me for names. Well, was the money just that big?

Yeah, they were throwing out telephone numbers.

They're especially to rugby league players. Give them classic examples of how NRL agents

were really milking this for all it was worth. There were the links somebody with R360 tell the

Aussie media, big headlines, new contract and things like that. I think they were willing.

But whether or not I don't ever think it was realistically going to get off the ground,

there was nothing substantial about it. There was just lots of rumours, lots of

this is what R360 tried to do. There was lots of briefing going on. There was lots of briefing going on.

They were definitely throwing out numbers and offers. Some agents I spoke to were very reluctant

to sign up to it with a lot of the big name players because one agent told me that he hadn't

seen any proof of any funds. It was a strange one. It's like, was it rugby ex a few years ago

by the NEO2 and things like that? These things, there were some very serious people behind

R360. That's not getting it wrong. There were some very serious players behind it.

But was it ever a realistic proposition to get off the ground? I don't think it was.

And I don't think it was any surprise. Certainly some of the NRL players that signed up to

Exact Lone Max, though I think has just signed with the Australian rugby union. He was certainly

one player that was definitely caught out by it. There were bamboozled people with huge numbers

and talk of huge offers and life changing offers. But there were definitely England players

with an agency that were all with the same agency that would definitely signed up to it or gave

pre-agreements. And then I think it all started on gravel slightly when the unions came out.

It said, well, you play for us, 360 can't play for us anymore. A head of a world cup,

that's a big gamble, isn't it? 100%. Well, actually, first, before I go on to that,

can you tease us any ongoing stories, anything that's not out yet, anything that's bubbling

away, anywhere we should be keeping an eye on? It's a strange one. It's almost the wrong time

of a year to be talking about transfers because a lot of clubs have now finished.

They're coming to the end of their recruitment. So it's getting sparse. Watch out,

fur banks is done. Definitely done at Queens. They've signed, they've signed

a prop from South Africa as well. Swingers, I believe that's done. Watch out for Churwin Bosch.

I think he'll be leaving, but even going back to South Africa. Apart from that now, I think

most clubs are done. Most clubs are done. It's only like here, squad players.

I don't think you'll find that there are many. There are still rumours that Newcastle Red Bulls

have got a pot of money to spend on what will they bring in or who will they bring in. I think

they've got one or two more up their sleeve or most certainly, but sailor, after a scram

out for the life of me, it is bugging me that I can't find out of it. It is that's one.

Bafty Clerks on the market? No, he's not. Isn't he? No. Staying all do we already know where he's

going? Free State, I'm told. Yeah, I'm told that was a done deal that despite their financial

woes that he signed there. Okay, interesting. There was interest. I think there was a discussion,

but I think he ended up that he wanted to go back to South Africa and the free state offered him

or the cheaters. I keep on saying the free state because I've reached South Africa media.

They refer to them that they came along and I think it's quite attractive to play in the

curry cup because you only play a short number of games. I'm told that is done and I did inquire

because the cheaters have had some financial problems and I thought like you at the start

the week that was my Monday morning was trying to get his fath staying at his deal going ahead,

but I'm told that's done. Can you tell me I'm a well-servedly fan anywhere I should be

keeping an eye on in Wales? No, that's a basket case of a thing, isn't it really? Let's be

honest. Nobody seems to know what's going on down there. I think what they need to do is I think

they need to come out and say which club they're ditching. Like Dan Edwards re-signed at the

Ospreys, didn't they? I think the WRU have promised them the players they want to keep at the

Ospreys that they'll place them with one of the other regions on the same money. They've guaranteed

their money basically. That was my information on that, but there aren't too many. I think Morgan and

Derby are an hour on rain, what? Wainwright, sorry, they were the big ones weren't they? Yeah,

Falatowns out to contract, haven't heard, I think.

They keep, France keeps coming up, but it came up last season as well. Yeah, I think

hopefully time he's out at a contract, French clubs get linked, don't they? Ross Moriarty,

I think, is out at a contract and there were rumours around France, a premier ship,

anywhere really aren't there. There's not too much. I'll be honest, well,

rumours aren't my strong point. Fair enough then. Anyway, so we're going to go on now to talk

something that I think is your strong point in English rugby, but before we do that, I just want

to remind people, if you've gotten this far in, I'd like to think that you're enjoying the show.

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All right Neil, let's get into the last bit of the show where we talk about England. As they say

on BBC, Johnny Videl used to say, okay, Lawrence, let's talk about England.

What did you make? Because you've been quite outspoken on social media. What do you make of what

Steve Hawthorke is up to with England man these days?

Where should we start without getting cancelled and without getting sacked?

Probably a little bit out of his depth at times.

Yeah. I think he doesn't come across as somebody who's dynamic does he?

I think the way you play reflects in the Coke sometimes. It was brilliant. That last match

against France. I think of England who played like that throughout the tournament. I don't

think anybody would be complying really would. I think we're in danger of English rugby.

We've got an absolute generation. We've got so many good players, but I don't know if it's

the game plan. I don't know if there's something going on behind the scenes or whatever.

But we just can't get a tune out of England. Come on.

Well, they said the ITV commentator during the fans match was saying, is this England?

Where's this team been? This doesn't feel like watching England for Steve Hawthorke's

England at all. Are you hearing anything from people you chat to? Where players or coaches of

international players saying anything about what the experience is like playing on the

Baltic? No, it's kind of a closed shop from people I speak to. People message you all the time

saying, we've heard that all's not well in the England camp. That's obvious to anybody,

isn't it, that I think that you so want your national team to do well. You want your national

team to do well, don't you? It's just something that holds you back, isn't there? There's maybe

if you're a bit too close to it and you're working it, but I thought he was lucky to get the

job in the first place to be honest. I think he was in the right place at the right time.

He seems to get a run of results together, which I think paper over the cracks. Didn't they go

10 or 12 unbeaten? But then the cracks were exposed, okay, you beat your blacks, but they're not

the all blacks that we all have admired for years. There was talk about them beating South Africa

in South Africa this summer, wasn't that, but that soon dissipated. I think that there's probably

not, I think there's probably been a lot going on behind the scenes in the England camp. That's

certainly, there's been a lot of rumours about that. In terms of what? The constant shopping and

changing of coaching staff and our coaching staff happy there. But then again, those rumours have

been going on. Ever since Eddie Jones was there, and I don't think there's, yeah, there's probably

no potty there that was there when Eddie Jones was there. No, it really is there.

Well, apart from Borscht, yes, yes, so do you believe it? There's always rumours going around,

and it was depressing because you watched England's first games and they were just abject, weren't they?

Warful. Absolutely awful. They looked as if something was wrong, and I don't know if he was

holding them back. In fact, he probably was holding them back, that you get somebody like

Lee Blackett in there and you don't utilize his strengths, do you?

When you let them off the leash, you have such a wonderful game against France, and that was a

magnificent game, wasn't it? Eight o'clock on the Saturday night, we were all absolutely knackered

from watching two decent games beforehand, and then all of a sudden, I think England and

France go in tow to tow. I was in shock watching it. Yeah, and that French team,

Sean Edwards, I've known Sean Edwards for 30 years, and you can see why I haven't got in the

air left, can't you? That was just like you score a try, we'll score a try, and

Booley Barry, and that French team is some team, but England stood up to them.

England were within what, 10 seconds were there, and it wouldn't have been a shock because

the way that England played, England thoroughly deserved it, and then we give away two silly penalties

in midfield, don't we? And then I think the outcome was inevitable,

Grand Moss was always going to step up, but you can't get upset at losing a game like that,

can you? I don't support any clubs, but you obviously, you want, but it's games like that,

that you sit back afterwards and you think, did I just really watch that game?

And that's the way you want English rugby playing, isn't it? You want England's,

you want like a rugby equivalent, a basketball, don't you?

You go out there, and you score five tries, we'll score six, or, well, as the premiership is

going, score seven tries, we'll score nine, and things like that, it's a bit, it gives a bit

like rugby league, isn't it? Any respects, I think the two codes are slowly moving to each other.

Absolutely, and I think that's definitely a podcast that's on the horizon, absolutely,

but anyway, I think that brings us to the end of the chat that we're going to have today, Neil,

so massive thanks for coming on, do you want to tease anything that you've got coming up

for where people need to look out for? No, but if I could just plug

the rugby pass app, yeah, the boffins have said, get them to download it, I think there's going to be

there's going to be a section soon where you'd just be able to specifically ask for notifications

on transfer's. All right, okay, well, that brings us to the end of the chat, so thank you very

much Neil for joining us. I hope that everybody's found this chat as informative as possible.

If you have, please consider liking, subscribing, commenting, doing all the things,

and I just need you to say, enjoy your rugby, and I hope that everybody's team wins. Cheers.