The Megyn Kelly Show: Andrew Huberman on Practical Wellness Tips, the Danger of "If Only" Thinking, and "Protocols" For Life

0:00Hello, my friends over at the Tucker Carlson show. Great to talk to you all. It's me, Megan Kelly. And today we are bringing you an interview that I just did with Andrew Huberman. We did it on the Megan Kelly show. It was a fascinating conversation about how to improve your sleep, your health, your stress levels. We even cover nicotine a favorite of Tucker's and maybe some viewers and so many tips on how to live a better life. If you want to check out more, head on over to the Megan Kelly show podcast feed and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We're free. There you'll find our daily coverage of news, politics, true crime, legal issues, cultural stories and more and enjoy for now this conversation with Andrew Huberman. Huberman Lab podcast he has published more than 75 peer reviewed articles and top scientific

1:01journals and delivered more than 100 invited research and keynote seminars around the world. He's had a fascinating life and provided guidance on how to live better to millions of fans and followers, but he's never written a book until now. His new book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body and it's available right now for pre-order. It's out later this month and it is a guide to improving brain function, enhancing mood and energy, optimizing bodily health and physical performance and rewiring your nervous system to learn new skills and behaviors even that could positively transform your life. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this show on YouTube and follow me on in-stuff Facebook and X. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition says Washington politicians are always getting in your wallet and that now they're messing with your credit card. They say your credit card and these security it offers are under attack and that senators Dick Durbin and Roger Marshall

2:05want to change the nation's payment system to benefit corporate megastores like Walmart and Target at the expense of everyday Americans. Credit cards can keep your payments secure and provide rewards that families use and rely on to help make everyday purchases more affordable. The Electronic Payments Coalition says the Durbin Marshall mandates would let corporate megastores cut corners on credit card processing, routing transactions over cheaper, untested networks with weaker security and fewer protections. Find out more at guardyourcard.com and consider telling Congress to guard your card. Andrew, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. Great, great to finally meet you. I'll be it virtually. Yeah, it says same. It's a pleasure. I'm a big fan and I've learned a lot from you over the years just from Clipson from your show. So this is a thrill and I'm loving the chance to get to talk to you about you before we kick off the health and other advice. So you're a California boy. I am. Right? I grew up in California. I am.

3:06And it seems like from the book you you had sort of an idyllic first 14 years and the family had dinner together every night and that's so important to one's mental health and well-being. And then something happened in your family that gets downplayed by a lot of people is really not that relevant to a child's mental health, but it is relevant and it was life changing for you. And that was your parents divorce. Yeah, I did have a quite idyllic life. My dad's a scientist. My mom's a writer and you know, and along with my sister, we had dinner together every night. In my home, there wasn't a lot of discussion about sports, but I certainly got to hear a lot about the luminaries of science and ideas from my dad. We always shared that. My mom has a real love of literature obviously and I have a close relationship with my sister and everything was pretty fantastic. And then you know, I was born in 1975. So divorce wasn't as common back when. But when I

4:09about at age 14, they separated and got divorced. So this happens a lot nowadays as we know, unfortunately. Look, I love my parents. Everyone did the best they could with what they had. And but it was a high conflict situation. And you know, as things played out, I found myself disengaging from academics, disengaging from kind of standard social milieu of school. I went to a very, very good public school in South Palo Alto. Keep in mind at this time, Palo Alto wasn't the Palo Alto that is now, you know, of.com and tech fame. But mostly kids there were the children of academics or engineers or something like that. And we were well enough off. I wouldn't say we were like at the high end of the well scale or low end. We were, you know, the focus in our house was on love and ideas. And but what happened was in response to that. And I regret this and I encourage all kids of divorce parents, higher low conflict situations to keep, keep studying, keep doing your

5:11homework and stay engaged in school sports and activities. Like what happened for me was I, I ended up organizing my life around basically skateboarding and hanging out with skateboarders. Because back in the late 80s and early 90s, that's where all the feral kids went. And I, I talk about this a little bit at the beginning of the book, even though it's not the main focus of the book. What was really great was in that community, there were a bunch of kids whose parents were not engaged in their lives much, right? That was the unifying theme. That's why we skateboard it because you didn't need your parents to come to baseball or soccer practice. And but there's a ton of creativity. A lot of those people went on to create big brands like DC. I knew those kids that started DC, that started all these big brands. And some kids got sponsored in turn pro others got really into drugs and alcohol and destroyed their lives. And so, you know, it was a very interesting time for me being completely free, getting exposed to a lot of things way too early, in my opinion, looking back,

6:13a lot of exposure to violence, drugs, and sex that frankly as a 14 year old, you know, I shouldn't have been exposed to. But I was witness to a ton of great skateboarding. I unfortunately was not a great skateboarder. But fortunately, by virtue of getting injured a lot, I started foraging for other things to do. And eventually, mainly because of a high school girlfriend who went off to college and I didn't want to be away from her, I found my way back to academics. And somewhere in along the way, I took a course in neuroscience. At the time, there wasn't a field of neuroscience, but it was one truly amazing teacher, his name was Harry Carlisle, who taught me about brain function and taught me about these neurochemicals in the brain that controlled things like anxiety, depression, addiction. And I witnessed a lot of that. And I thought to myself, this is the coolest thing ever, especially when I learned about neuroplasticity, which is, you know, this organ that we have in our head is unlike all the other organs of the body in that it can deliberately change itself. We can learn new things. We can have a new emotional relationship to things. And so as my life went on,

7:17I pursued a career in science, eventually became a tenured professor at Stanford, ran a research lab for a long time, I still teach at Stanford, and fell in love with all of that. But it was really this kind of merge of the hard things that I had seen and experienced. Plus the understanding that there's this incredible organ in our brains that we don't really understand that much about, at least not back then. But now we understand enough to make really great choices, including to, you know, of I think, you know, even though the discussion about things like psychedelics and things of that sort are very interesting for therapeutic purposes, that I think because the young brain is so plastic that all kids would benefit from, frankly, staying away from that. This isn't a, you know, anti-drug campaign that I'm on. But, you know, the developing brain is so fragile and so susceptible to its both chemical and environmental inputs. And I will stand on firm ground and say that while I understand that in some cases it may be necessary that, you know, having two parents at home and

8:22them getting along and working through things together, I love my parents. I don't hold any grudge whatsoever. But I think it's clear now from the data that's enormously helpful to child's development. So no regrets. It all worked out for me. But it was, there was a high friction road along the way. And I think science, an amazing teacher, and then others who came along, plus the love of science and a care for the world that my father and mother put into me. So I'm grateful to them too. I, you know, I love them, pray for them and with them and life is good. So I only look back with fondness, but it was, it was rocky. Yeah, I mean, I, my own take on it and having read the book is I don't think you'd be doing what you're doing. If you hadn't gone through that trauma, that traumatic period, and been exposed to as many stressors as you were, clearly it lit something inside of you that needed addressing, needed healing, needed some sort of attention. And like most

9:23people who have had some trauma in their past, whether you've made progress on it or not, I think most of us spend the rest of our lives in some way trying to solve it, address it, heal it, or make it better for others who we can see coming up behind us who have similar issues. So I mean, I would argue that this book, Protocols, is a direct result of all that you went through. And thank you, and thanks to your parents in a way, because as a result, we have such good advice in here. I do want to spend one minute on this was such a sad thing. So you mentioned Professor Carlisle, who became such a mentor to you. And this was an important person in your life. And ultimately, he dies by suicide. Yeah, so I don't want to give people the impression that the book is entirely dark. It's a story about lightness and what you can do to better your abilities and sleep and stress mitigation, all these things. But I touch on the science of grief and how to get

10:24through things in a healthy way and mental health. And along my path, what I saw was the following. A lot of the kids I grew up with and with this amazing community of skateboarders. I saw some flourish. I saw others succumb to addiction. I saw some succumb to mental health issues. And as I went into science, I incorrectly thought, oh, you know, what's going to happen is that scientists are all going to be super healthy, right? These are people who understand the brain. And as a consequence of understanding the brain and biology, I naively thought that they would be immune to a lot of the problems that this other community had. And I'm quite the opposite. So there were three things that happened along the way for me that really motivated me further to write the book protocols to have a podcast where we talk about health, where I teach about what we do and don't know about the brain and how people can benefit. And the first one really was

11:27these childhood observations from my teen years. The next observation was that this guy, Harry Carlisle, who understood mental health, depression, disease, suicidality as chemical issues. For whatever reason, I eventually, you know, was able to fill in some of the pieces, took his own life in a pretty dramatic fashion. And that told me something, right? I was close friends with his wife, and I knew his family. It told me that knowledge alone doesn't save us. Knowledge is important. It's as we say in science, necessary, but not sufficient. You know, and then what happened was I went off to graduate school and had an amazing time in graduate school. Everyone says, oh, you know, you finished graduate school and you're aged and you're tired. I was so full of life in graduate school. And after I loved my graduate advisor, she was like a mother to me. Her name was Barbara Chapman. And then she, I know, I know her family and kids. Her daughter is a neuroscientist now. And she died of cancer at 50. And I thought, oh my goodness, she had the

12:31brachimutation. So she had a genetic susceptibility. And I thought, my goodness. And then I became a postdoc at Stanford. And my postdoc advisor, the first day of my faculty appointment, had a heart attack across the table for me at dinner. He survived that. It turns out he had pancreatic cancer. He was dead. He roughly a year later, I ended up writing his obituary for nature. We were very, very close. And I thought to myself, this is crazy, right? Like either the joke in my field, the kind of morbid joke is you don't want me to work for you, obviously, because the odds are, you know, have it in a workout so well for these people. But the, but the serious aspect of is at one point, I thought, what's going on here? What's going on? And I also noticed in my field of neuroscience, people doing tremendously well. I know Nobel Prize winners, members of the National Academy, my closest childhood friend is now the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF. He's doing phenomenally well in life, including family. And I thought to myself, what's happening here? And I realized, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, scientists, doctors, parents, kids, nobody knows the manual,

13:39the rulebook for how to control their stress. Nobody knows the playbook for how to take care of their health. And we're supposed to be all about health. And we're supposed to eat right, sleep right, et cetera. But like, I'm watching my colleagues get sick. I'm seeing them. They look badly out of shape. And I understand they're time limited. But they're talking about back pain. They're talking about their kid as an anxiety. There's a colleague became a dick, this very famous person in my field became addicted to pain killers and then eventually died. No one talked about it. And I'm thinking myself, we're not talking about this stuff. We need to talk about it. In fact, this last year, one of the luminaries in our field, it still gets me, who was a real pioneer in transcranial magnetic stimulation therapies for depression and also psychedelic therapies. The studies of these took his own life. My dear friend and colleague, Nolan Williams, who's helped the veterans community tremendously. So I realized at some point, people don't know how to take care of themselves. They don't even know what self-care is. It sounds very selfish and in some versions of it,

14:42it can be. So what are we supposed to do? So in 2020, with the with the world on lockdown and everyone kind of in battling each other, I thought, look, I'm not a virologist. I'm just going to stay out of that whole thing. It's a hornet's nest for an academic like me. But here's what I will do. I'm going to go online and I'm going to start talking about ways to improve your sleep. My lab had worked on a number of things including eye diseases and trying to cure blindness, glaucoma. We'd worked on brain development and I'd worked on stress mitigation in humans. And I knew that there were simple tools that people could apply to learn to shut their brain off at the end of the day and get great sleep, to have more energy, elevated mood and focus throughout the day. I knew the literature quite well because I teach it and I've done research on it and published on some of it on how you can modify your brain in adaptive ways and how you can start to unpeel some of the emotional load of traumatic experiences. And I thought the world needs this. So I'm going to start blabbing about it into the camera and I teamed up, interestingly,

15:45I teamed up with a guy who had a little bit of a background in media, his name is Rob Moore. And we started this little production company in my closet with my bulldog, Costello snoring in the background. And I grabbed some skateboarders. My friend Mike Blayback is now a famous action sport photographer. He came up through skateboarding, had his own challenges with alcohol and drugs, got clean, got lean and healthy. He's a family man, he's got two kids, he's doing great. I grabbed two skateboard filmers because skateboarders mind you, the ones that made it through the shoot of all the troubling stuff. They are the original do it yourself, filmer editors. We all carried around cameras when we were kids long before smartphones. And they are phenomenal at making movies. So we're a small pack of guys and we did it the same way you'd start a skateboarding company. Find a space, film people doing what they love, put it out into the world. And I just start giving away tools to the world on sleep, on stress mitigation, on neuroplasticity, on personal development. And I would have gay guests on, but I would also do

16:47these solo episodes where I would explain here, here's what the real story on dopamine is. It's not about pleasure, it's about motivation. Here's how you can leverage that to your advantage to stay motivated, but not burnout and so on. And then eventually I realized that the world needed that information in a different form so that the book is sort of a lookup table. It tells a story, you could go linearly through it. But it's kind of a lookup table. You can go any chapter. You want, you want to just navigate straight to that chapter and so on. So that's really the purpose behind what I do. Yeah. The, again, the book is called Protocols by Andrew Huberman, available available for preorder right now. Let's spend some time on sleep because I've seen so many clips of you talking about sleep. And I can tell you this is definitely an issue for me and a lot of my viewers of a certain age women in particular. But a lot of guys out there too, got a lot of truckers who listen to this show on serious XM who are not well rested and are not getting the appropriate amount of sleep. And I have to say the more time you spend talking

17:50about how you need to sleep, the harder it can be to sleep because then you're in your bed at night, like I'm supposed to be asleep, but I can't fall asleep. And it's amazing to me that you, you argue that it begins when you wake up. Your good night's sleep begins the moment you wake up. And whenever I hear this next part because I've heard you say this over the years, I think Andrew Huberman is not from the Northeast and does not live in the Northeast. And now understanding that you're a California boy, it's starting to come into full focus for me because you want us to get up, go outside within the first, first 30 minutes or so and stare at the sun for, you know, 10 minutes maybe. And now we do mean like at the sun or like right next to the sun, not like the fully bright sun, but you say that's not really the sun you're getting in the morning when it first rises anyway. But explain why this is important and explain how this is supposed to work for those of us in places like Connecticut when it's minus 15 and awful when you wake up. Fair play. You know,

18:56I have largely lived west of interstate five, which cuts down through the center of California. So all fair. So here's the thing. I'm going to we too, we also want to live the rest of the country that people have been sold out, that people in Washington. Yeah, you guys are having a couple other other advantages that we can talk about. So it all it all evens out. Here's the deal to really master your sleep and get great sleep, but also to have elevated daytime mood, focus, etc. You really want to master the first hour of your day and the last hour of your day. Unfortunately, I'm not going to tell you that you need to do a bunch of things in each of those hours that require finances or require a lot of energy. Here's the theme, which is we know is conducive to better mental health and physical health and longevity. You want bright mornings and days and dark nights. Now, if you're going to tell me, well, there's not a lot of sunlight out here,

19:58but here's the deal. When you wake up in the morning, you wake up because of a rise in a hormone called cortisol and because of a rise in body temperature. Most people think of cortisol as a stress hormone and they think, oh, that's bad. I don't want high cortisol. You want your morning cortisol high. I'll repeat that. You want your morning cortisol high. It is not a stress hormone. It is the hormone of energy and to mobilize energy in your body and get you moving into the day. If you get your morning cortisol high, it helps ensure that your nighttime cortisol is low. And when your nighttime cortisol is low, it's easy to fall and stay asleep and you get great sleep. Your metabolic health will be better. The hormone melatonin goes up, which makes you sleepy. You want morning cortisol high, nighttime cortisol low. The best way to kind of book, so think about book ending your days. I don't care what time you wake up. If it's 4 a.m. or it's 10 a.m. We can talk about what to do if the sun isn't out yet. But within the first hour of waking up, ideally within the first 30 minutes, you're going to get up. Most people use the restroom. I suggest

21:01you hydrate your in a little bit of water. And if the sun is up, and by the way, you don't need to be able to see the sun, it can be completely overcast. But if there's daylight coming through the clouds, which there is even in the depths of winter in Boston, it's much brighter at 7 a.m. for instance, in Boston, in the middle of winter, then it was at midnight the night before. There's a lot of what we call photons or light energy coming through those clouds. You go outside, you could even stand on a balcony. Best not to do it through a window, but if you have to, you go out on a balcony or outside, you look in the direction of the sun. If you can't see the sun because there's a building in the way, that's fine. Take off any hat you might be wearing because the sun's coming in from the top. You want to get to your eyes. And don't wear sunglasses. Lots of sunglasses at this time. Eye glasses in contacts are fine. And you can have your coffee there. You can do your morning prayer or meditation there. You can bring your dog. You can bring a friend. You can be completely alone. And even if you just grab a one minute of daylight, it's going to benefit you wide because there's this critical window within the first hour of waking where if you

22:05get bright light in your eyes from daylight, from sunlight, it amplifies that cortisol peak, which makes it much lower before sleep, which makes it far easier to fall asleep at night. In addition, most people want less stress than their life, not more. If you spike your cortisol that way first thing in the morning, any stress you have during the day will lead to a more transient, a brief increase in stress hormones. You are better at dealing with stress when you do this. And there are a number of biochemical reasons for this. These are not psychological phenomena. These are pure physiology. This isn't about mindset. Can you just explain, what am I looking, because they say you're not supposed to look directly into the sun, but am I supposed to be looking directly into the sun at this hour? Great question. So as somebody who worked on blinding the diseases of the eye for many years, I want to encourage people, you can look in the direction of the sun, but blink as needed to protect your eyes. If it's really bright for you and you're blinking, great. The blink reflexes there to protect your eyes. Never force yourself to look at any light sunlight or otherwise.

23:08That's painful to look at. So you can just look in the direction of the sun. You could even keep your eyes closed. Believe it or not, the photon energy goes through your eyelids, but you look kind of off to the side of the sun. If it's in the middle of winter, the sun is easy to look at, because it's behind so many clouds. When the sun is low in the sky, such around sunrise or sunset. And keep in mind, I'm not saying you need to see the sun cross the horizon. If you wake up at 9am, and the sun's already up, you miss sunrise. It's rising. But when it's low in the sky, you'll notice something about the sun if it's not a cloudy day, which is it looks a bit more yellow orange red than at other times. Now, of course, the light coming from the sun is the same all times of day. But when the sun is low in the sky, there's an atmospheric phenomenon called Rayleigh scattering where the UV, which are damaging rays for the most part, are get scattered. And so those aren't reaching your eyes. So you see the what are called the longer wavelengths of light. It looks a bit more like candle light and bright, but more like candle light. So when the sun is low in the sky, you don't have to worry about UV damage to your skin. You don't have to worry about damage

24:11to your eyes or getting cataract. When the sun is overhead, that's when you really need to be careful about too much UV exposure. We know that UV exposure. So in the perfect in the perfect Uberman protocol, I'm out. I'm looking up. I'm maybe just to the right of the sun, not directly into the sun. I don't have sunglasses on. And how and how long do I need to stand there looking? And is it non do I need to be looking nonstop? Or can I like look around at the dogs and the you know, look around those how those photons are bouncing off of surfaces. They're getting reflected. Take if you take a walk, if there's any green space around. See, this is where the east coast, you have an advantage, you know, except in some cities, you often have a lot more green because you get a lot more rain, right? The Oregonians really benefit here too. The really beneficial wavelengths of light are bouncing off greenery. You know, if you were to that long wavelength light that bounces off greenery is tremendously good for our mitochondria. It actually can go into and through our body. This

25:14is a separate story that I cover in the book. It can actually lower blood glucose. Believe it or not, your sugar blood sugar management is much better when you're out in daylight than when you eat indoors. This was shown by my colleague Glenn Jeffrey at University of College London. They shine the red light, which approximate sunlight on people's backs while they did a glucose tolerance test. It blunts glucose levels by nearly it's somewhere between 20 and 30 percent, which is remarkable. How could that be? The light actually goes into the body through the body. And the mitochondria, the energy factories in our cells actually start using more ATP metabolism goes up, which is remarkable. Now, here's the interest. Just so I'm clear, you have to be exposing your skin in that moment. Like it doesn't count when you're skiing and you're completely covered head to toe with that that the light needs to hit your actual body skin. A T-shirt they've shown it can go through a T-shirt or even a shirt like the one I'm wearing, you know, a thin enough shirt, a thick jacket it won't go through. So you get outside, you take your any brimmed hat off, you look in the

26:18direction of the sun. Yes, if you need to text someone that's fine, you walk, you take a call, you talk to somebody, it's, you know, it's especially nice to get five minutes or so. I suggest doing a 10 breath meditation, you know, just focusing on 10 breaths or do your morning prayers. That's a big practice for me and then get into the day and you've done it. You've spiked that cortisol. Look, even better would be if you can get some exercise in the first hours of the day because you know, everyone's so afraid of cortisol, but everyone's told to exercise a moderate to high intensity exercise session, cardiovascular training or resistance training will triple your cortisol level, but transiently, that's a great thing early in the day and it sets you up for great sleep at night. If you have to exercise later in the day, that's fine and we can talk about that, but in that case, you'd want to, one of the things that really leads to better sleep as long as we're here, we might as well just kind of throw in a few things that lead to better sleep. If you're having a hard time calming your system down at the end of the day, two things really help. One, you need to lower your core body temperature. That's actually how you fall asleep. The one excellent way to do

27:21that is to take a hot shower or bath. You say, wait, I'm heating up my skin. How is that going to make me cooler? Well, your brain has a little thermostat region called the medial preoptic nucleus and when just like a thermostat, when the surface of the skin heats up, the brain says, oh, we need to lower a core body temperature and your body temperature starts falling when you get out of that shower bath. If you don't have access to a shower bath, even a warm compress to the face will accomplish this. Very easy, essentially costs nothing and it will facilitate the transition to sleep. The other thing that is, yeah, and this is probably a bigger thing, but at LIT, you finish a point, but can you, after this, talk about staying asleep? Yes. Yeah, so one of the key things to falling asleep and to stress mitigation, you'll notice I'm trying to fire hose tools at people that they can use any time. Yes, we want them. These are all, and I'll just point out, like I didn't discover these tools. I've published on some of them as tools in my laboratory, but I want to really point out something important in the backdrop here is these mechanisms are hardwired into all of us.

28:27We're born with them. We're going to die with them. So there's no real learning except how to activate these circuits. Hence a user manual for the brain and body, right? An operating manual. So the idea here is you have these cells in your eye. They're called melanopsin and intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells. That's just nerd speak for the cells in your eye that actually know that morning sunlight is hitting them. It's different than other forms of light. Your phone won't do it. A computer won't do it. An indoor light, unless it's a 10,000 lux artificial light, we'll talk about that in a minute, won't accomplish this. We have these cells for the very purpose of waking us up in the morning for telling the brain and body it's morning. That circuit gets activated. Boom, you just go into your day. You don't have to think about it anymore. There's another feature to the way that we are hardwired, which is we have a little collection of neurons in our brain that communicate with our body in the following way. When you are feeling too alert, could be stressed, could be panic, could be public speaking,

29:31could be a hard conversation, could be anticipation of a medical outcome, or you're having trouble falling asleep or getting back to sleep. What you need to do is do a long deliberate exhale. Just like that. If you want to make it even more effective, you do two inhales through your nose to maximally inflate your lungs and then you exhale. What am I talking about here? This is not breath work. This is a collection of specific neurons that were discovered by my friend and colleague, Jack Feldman at UCLA, that lead to a slowing of heart rate in a good way. Everyone's heard of the vagus nerve now. It says nerve nerves in the body, collect sensory information from the body, telling the brain what's going on in the body. We're not even thinking about it, but there's another part of the vagus nerve, which goes from brain to the sinusoidal node of the heart. It controls something called a respiratory sinus arrhythemia, which sounds bad. People hear arrhythmia, and that sounds bad. But when you do a deliberate exhale, your heart rate slows down. So if you want to calm down

30:36really fast, the fastest way to do that is not self talk. It's not meditation because you don't have time to run off and meditate. It's not a drink. Even that will take longer. We can talk about alcohol later. It is to do a deliberate exhale. You're too amped up. You want to calm down. Long deliberate exhale. There's a specific pathway that slows the heart rate down. These days in the fitness circles, you're hearing more about heart rate variability, a stress monitor, like a whoop band, or anything that measures HRV. It's measuring how often your brain sends this brake signal to your heart rate. That's what HRV is. In fact, if you do a few deliberate exhales during the day, just a few times, you're walking out of the restroom, going back to work, you're sitting down to your desk, whatever, you're driving and picking up the kids, you do one long deliberate exhale. Your HRV gets higher at night in sleep, which is great for you, and during the day, you want high HRV. It shows that your nervous system can calm your heart rate

31:40down, slow it down. This is a well, I could get into the mechanism, the diaphragm moves up, the heart gets a little smaller, blood moves faster, the brain says, uh-oh, blood's moving faster through that smaller volume of the heart, slow heart rate down. When we inhale, heart rate speeds up, and everyone's told, oh, you're stressed, take a deep breath. That increases your heart rate. So, circa 2019-2020, I'm thinking myself, everyone's stressed, everyone's saying, take a deep breath. That's not going to work. That's going to send you in the opposite direction, okay? Humans inhale actively and passively exhale. We do this all day long. We let the air fall out. When we actively exhale, it activates this circuit that's just sitting there waiting for you to calm yourself down and you actively exhale. The reason exercise increases HRV has a lot to do with how much exhaling you do during exercise. So, in that last hour of the day, here's what I'd love for people to do. I understand people watching Netflix, they're listening to podcasts, they're watching

32:44TV, they want to know the verdict on this new case. I get it. I totally get it. I'm human too. Just do this for me. Try and make the first hour of your day as bright as possible that day. If all you can do is flip on all the lights in your house first thing in the morning, that's it. Can't get outside. It's too cold. You don't want to do it fine. Just make it bright. Make as bright as you can. Even better for people in the Northeast would be to get, and I don't have any relationship to the companies that sell these. But for about $100, you can get a 10,000 lux artificial light. Looks like a TV screen. You put in the kitchen or the bathroom. You flip it on. Go about your morning. You don't have to stare at it or you get outside. Get some light in your eyes. Do that. And if you can, we can talk about exercise in the early part of the day. Great. First three hours or so. And then in the last hour of your day, think, I'm going to try and heat up the surface of my body to cool down internally so I can fall asleep better. So hot compress to the face for 10 seconds. Maybe a hot shower or hot bath. Okay. If you have time, dim the lights. If you can't dim the lights, try not use overhead lights because the

33:47eyes, the cells and the eyes that carry this information about waking up to the brain, they view the upper visual field. That's how they're placed so they can see the sky. So do like the Scandinavians and use desk lamps or a floor lamp. Okay. Dim those lights. Dim your screen. And if you're still feeling too ramped up and you can't sleep, do some long exhales. Just a few long exhales. This whole thing will have an outsized positive effect on people's sleep, daytime mood focus and alertness. And there's a beautiful study out of the UK bio bank of more than 80,000 subjects, which shows that even if people just make their nights darker, for instance, maybe an I'm asked while you sleep, don't have an I'm asked, grab a soft t-shirt, throw it over your eyes and when you go to sleep. Even just making your sleep environment darker has a significant positive effect on reducing symptoms of depression, OCD, mania, dementia and on and on. Better to make mornings bright and dark nights. But if you look at the way humans have been trending for the last

34:51few years, we have days that are too dim and nights that are too bright. And if you think, well, no, actually my work environment's pretty bright. Just putting people near a window or having people look out a window a few times during the daytime has significant improvements on metabolic health, longevity, mood. It's not that we should be living out of doors. No one's going to do that, right? People want, we evolved all these ways to live indoors. And they're great, frankly. But brighter mornings, darker nights, even in these subtle ways will help tremendously. Now there are some people for whom all of that, they'll do all of that and they'll say, I still wake up at two or three in the morning and I can't get back to sleep. And for that, I'm going to offer you a really weird trick. But the reason I'm willing to do this, even as a scientist, is A, there's a scientific basis for it. And B, it works. And it's the following. We know this one. This is a wild trick, but this will get

35:52you back to sleep. It's wild. I know. It's really wild. Well, three. I saw you do it. I know. I have tried it a few times. I know it looks crazy, but you'll think you'll thank me later, folks. I promise. And also, what's fun about these things is, these are in you, right? This isn't something you have to go purchase, right? I'll be happy if people purchase the book, but frankly, the reason I go on podcasts like this is all the time. And it's because I just want people to have these tools. I mean, I wish I had known as a kid as an adult. I can calm myself down fast for a tense moment, just doing a deliberate exhale or even better at double inhale, long exhale. I can get better sleep because I had sleep issues starting basically in high school and college. I'd wake, I'd fall sleep and I'd wake up in the middle of the night. I mean, when we're sleeping well, life is so much better. Getting over traumas, recovery from addiction, dealing with difficult circumstances, but also our ability to do all the things that we know we're supposed to do, like exercise and

36:53earn a living and do all the things that we're striving, all our strivings get so much easier. So these are the tools I wish I had had, but they weren't out there. So the thing that you can do to fall back asleep, I'll just give you the science very briefly first. Anyone that's ever had a kid or held a kid knows that if you rock the kid back and forth and you walk, they fall asleep. Turns out there's a scientific study of the exact rate of rocking and walking that's ideal for putting babies to sleep. Turns out in adults, believe it or not, scientists are so weird, they did a study using a slow rocking bed and it puts people to sleep. I want one. I know, I'm like, I want one too. But for most people, it's not practical. And then there was this woman who actually was in, she wasn't at Stanford, but Francine Shapiro who developed this thing called EMDR, which is a trauma treatment where people recount a story while moving their eyes from side to side. Sounded pretty wacky. People made up silly theories that, oh, that's mimicking rapid eye movement sleep.

37:56No, nothing of the sort. Turns out based on now three or four really solid publications that when the eyes are moving from side to side, for whatever reason, it quiets the activity of this brain region called the amygdala, which is involved in stress, threat detection and fear, as it's commonly referred to, the fear center. The critical thing for falling asleep is that you be not stressed, but also that you forget about your body position. So it turns out that this rocking motion or the movement of the eyes both suppresses areas of the brain that are involved in threat detection and anxiety and stress. But they also help you forget what's called proprioception, your knowledge of where your limbs are. And that is a requirement for falling asleep. So there are two things that have happened in the following year. First of all, a group of brilliant scientists at MIT came up with a sleep mask that they're developing now. I have no relationship to this company, but I've tried this mask that creates a very specific eye movement

38:59pattern by low level electrical stimulation that causes you to fall asleep. And I've done it, you fall asleep almost immediately. But the eye movement pattern is something that you can create yourself. So you close your eyes, you're in bed, you're wide awake. This happened to me last night. I woke up, went to sleep around 10 o'clock, woke up at 3.30, boom, wide awake. I was having some intense dream about some meaningless thing, like so many dreams. And I thought, I'm wide awake. What do I do? Keep my eyes closed. So under the eyelids, you move your eyes slowly to the left, then to the right, then up, then down. Try and move them counterclockwise, clockwise. I know it sounds crazy. Still with eyes closed. Kind of point them towards her nose. It's not really crossing your eyes and then you do a long exhale. When people do this, the typical reaction I get because people write to me is, next thing I know it was morning. I know that sounds wild. And

40:00listen, I wouldn't put this out into the world at this scale. If I wasn't confident that doing that one to three times for most people is sufficient for them to get back to sleep. Now, if you're intensely ruminating on something really troubling, you're going to need to do something else. But very, very often that will do the trick. And these eye masks that are now being developed are just trying to recapitulate that eye movement pattern. That's crazy. All I can think of is the movie, the jerk, where you put the sunglasses on or the eyeglasses and they've got something and next thing, everybody who tries them is cross-eyed. I hope the mask doesn't happen. That's not going to do this. But what I just described is entirely safe. Why does it shut down your proprioception, your knowledge of body position? I can't help myself but tell people why. The mechanism is important here because otherwise it becomes a hack, right? And a hack is something that's designed to overcome a problem. Like if these glasses break and I put a paperclip in the corner to fix them, that's a hack. It's not what the paperclip was designed for. It's not a really good solution. It's a

41:04temporary solution. The reason this is not a hack, this is grounded in your physiology. Your eyes have many connections to the brain. Some are designed to tell your brain when it's daytime. Others are designed to let you see colors and shapes and movement of objects like cars. But there's another circuit that goes from your eyes to deep brain structures that then connects to what's called your mini brain, a little brain in the back of your brain, literally. It looks like another brain called the cerebellum. Most people think of the cerebellum as a balance structure. It's critical for balance. It's also critical for learning. But the cerebellum is also critical for taking your eye movements, understanding where your eyes are, and adjusting your body position accordingly. When you walk through any environment, office outdoors, whatever, you don't experience the world as blurry. But if I took a picture on my phone and moved my phone, it would be blurry. How is that? The cerebellum takes your eye position and sends the eyes a message to offset any slip

42:07in the visual world. So you see the world as stable as you move your head around. Amazing. When you move your eyes the way I described under the eyelids, it confuses the cerebellum. There's a map of your body in the cerebellum, and the cerebellum doesn't know how to deal with these weird eye movements, the side to side, round and up and down. And all of a sudden, that proprioceptive mechanism is shut down. And that's the second step in being able to fall asleep. So this is a so lowering your core body temperature, keeping the room cool helps to some long exhale breathing before sleep. If you wake up in the middle of the night, keep the room dark. Yes, get up and use the restroom if you need to. I highly recommend you not look at your phone if you can avoid it. But when you're ready to go back to sleep, do these eye movements, you will find almost certainly that you'll fall back asleep much more easily. And meant I get thousands of notes every day. Let me hit you with a couple of quick ones, a couple of quick ones. When you say double inhale, can you show us what that is? Is that regular inhale or something else?

43:12The two inhales through the nose, the second inhale will be shorter because your lungs are already mostly full, and then the exhale through the mouth. This is the fastest way to bring your heart rate down and de-stress in real time. So unless you're under water, I can't see a circumstance where you couldn't do this. So you do it the following way. Until lungs are empty. So it was a long inhale filling your lungs. Then one extra. When you don't think you have extra room, you do one extra and then a slow exhale through the mouth, inhale through the nose, exhale through the mouth. The reason for that second inhale is important. Your lungs are not just two big bags of air. They have hundreds of millions of little sacks that actually fill with air. Those little sacks are kind of moist in the middle. If you're ever trying to blow up a balloon at a kid's party, sometimes it's easy to blow up the balloon. But if there are those little water balloons, sometimes what you find is if you want to

44:14put air into a water balloon so you can tie it because you filled it too much, you have to two pushes, two exhales. So in order to maximally inflate those little sacks, you get that big first inhale and that will inflate most of them. But then there are a bunch of them there, collapse and kind of sticking together from surface tension. You do that second inhale, but they open up. They don't burst, but they open up. Great. Now you can offload more air on the exhale. And there's a story here also about oxygen coming in and you're offloading carbon dioxide. A lot of our stress is about too much carbon dioxide in the blood. You know, the brain has a set of neurons. Again, this neuroscience thing is incredible, right? It's like you have a set of neurons that don't tell you when to breathe because you need more oxygen. They tell you when to breathe when carbon dioxide gets too high. Many people have what's called sleep apnea. They're not getting enough oxygen during sleep or they have daytime apnea. And so they're not getting enough oxygen and they're

45:16and there's carbon dioxide levels are too high. There are three reasons why you want to offload carbon dioxide. You need it, but you don't want too much of it building up in your system. First of all, sleep apnea, snoring, et cetera, severe cardiovascular and basically brain health issues come from that. Get your snoring fixed. Get that deviated septum fixed. Get the CPAP if you have to. I had friends who had their uvelas cut out and it stopped their snoring. They said it was very painful. I don't know how that works. If that's what it takes, provide it, it's done by good surgeon, you know, do that for some people that are overweight or even the guys who like to lift weights and they have these giant necks, that's actually can create sleep apnea. You don't want to be overly muscled or too much body, but you don't want overly anything really. But this apnea is bad because of the buildup of carbon dioxide and sleep can it won't cause dementia, but it certainly predisposes you to it and to heart attack and so forth. But a lot of people during the daytime, they're walking

46:18around mouth breathing as much as you can only breathe through your mouth when eating or speaking. Now, if you're exercising hard, great to breathe through your mouth. That's fine. But would you like the mouth tape that people using? I don't because I have this mustache beard thing and it never stays on. So what I do is when I do my low level cardiovascular exercise, like walking unless I'm on a call or if I'm doing an easy cardiovascular exercise, I restrict myself to nasal breathing. It actually sets you up to be a nasal breather in sleep. You kind of start deep faulting to nasal breathing. But if I'm running harder or exercising harder, I definitely breathe through my mouth. The carbon dioxide thing is real in the sense that when you're stressed, there's a buildup of carbon dioxide, which is that's what stimulates the gas reflex. That's what makes you feel anxious and you can't shut your thoughts down. If you've ever been swimming and when kids can be so cruel, right, you're swimming. I grew up with a pack of wild teeth and they were just so they were good

47:21kids. But occasionally you'd be swimming. Learned about some of them in the blood. Exactly. And you try and come up out of the water. I was called protocols by Dr. Andrew Huberman. You can pre-order years now. Go ahead. Thank you. Yeah, you know, you're coming up out of the water and that mean kid holds your head right as you're trying to come up. Listen, you had enough air a moment before that. But that split second is terrifying because you're brain knows it needs oxygen. So you have a gas reflex that's looking for oxygen. There's an oxygen hunger, breath hunger. When you do this double inhale, long exhale, you reset the carbon dioxide oxygen ratios. And it's a wonderful state to be in because you're alert but calm. So let's say you're scutting. You're just maybe a good thing to do at any point during the day. Like while you're just sitting there, you're listening to this program. You could be doing a few. Just a couple, you know, one even just deliberate long exhale or the double inhale through the nose, exhale through the mouth. The beauty of this again is your HRV increases. You become more of a nasal breather in sleep. Your sleep is deeper. You have less apnea. You'll kind of notice that today a lot of the things we

48:24move from cortisol to light to breathing. A lot of these things are about being alert when you want to be alert, but not too alert and being asleep when you want to be asleep. In fact, I would argue that as a human, if you can master the ability to be alert but calm by using these tools, long exhales, if you need them, bright light to be more alert. If you can learn to turn your brain off and go to sleep, you're going to be a very effective professional, parent, partner, friend and your relationship to yourself gets way better because so many of the woes of the world have to do with an inability to self-regulate in order to get sleep. Then self-regulation becomes even harder. I'm a big calf. Let me just continue my couple questions on this because number of hours people have sass seven or eight. A lot of people can't get that. What's the bare minimum per night? People really should be striving for that. Okay, so new parents, caretakers and

49:25people who are in very stressful times in their life. I will tell you this. I'm not recommending it, but if you can get that first four hours of sleep, that's, ideally, you'd get more, but you will get some growth hormone release, some bodily repair. You can carry on for better worse for quite a long while with four to five hours, but you're not setting yourself up for health in the long run. But I say this because I want to be sensitive to the fact that some people are taking care of a sick relative. Some people are in a very stressful life situation where they're raising young kids. You will survive. And then you're like, you're going to get to mentor. You'll survive. You're going to survive. You'll survive. Once the kids are sleeping better, you'll sleep better. You will survive. You'll be okay. You don't want to do this for decades on end or even for five years on end, but you will be okay. For most people, they need somewhere between seven and eight. I feel pretty darn good at six. Developing kids probably need eight or nine.

50:26When you're battling an illness, nine or 10 is not abnormal and is healthy. But if you only need six hours and you feel great on six, God bless you. Keep going with. I do not stress that you need to get more sleep than you need. One thing that's critical, however, is if you are having trouble with sleep and you're napping in the daytime, you need to stop napping. When you get sleepy because of the buildup of a molecule called a dendrasein, and when you nap, you shave off some of that adenosine from your brain and body, which is good. You come out more alert. But at night, you want to create the real fatigue at the end of your day so that you're tired. That's why exercise is great. That's why napping in the daytime is bad for people who have trouble sleeping. If I have a whole section in the book, believe it or not, on napping, it seems to at one point, I thought to myself, I'm teaching people out of nap. This is crazy. But if you need a nap, 20 minutes should really be the limit so that you don't cause sleep inertia, which is the tiredness coming

51:29out of the nap, but also that you're not eroding your nighttime sleep. There's also, and I put some reference to this in the book, even just sitting down and quietly doing a few exhales and just closing your eyes, not looking at your phone for, believe it or not, make it 60 seconds, three minutes. You'll come out of that feeling some renewed vigor. The problem is nowadays, I'm a big consumer of media. I love media. But every moment is filled with more information coming in. So I'm talking about things that take on the order of minutes across the entire day, cost nothing. Hey, thanks for watching today's full episode. If you're new here, throw us a subscribe. See what you think. Stay in touch. There's plenty more goodness where this one came from. As always, we really do value your feedback. So email me too, Megan, MEGYN at Megankelly.com or just leave a comment down below. I do read them. I am meander over and I scroll through and I find them very entertaining and really appreciate the feedback. But in any event, join the community by becoming

52:33a subscriber. So you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions. But as you know, I'm very open-minded to people who disagree with me. That's how I learn. So thanks. And thanks for trusting us to always talk about it openly, honestly, and with provocative conversations. Think about the last time you called a business and no one picked up. What did you do? You called the next one on the list. Customers do the exact same thing when they are reaching out to you. Which is why I want to tell you about QUO, spelled Q-U-O. It's the business phone system built so that you never miss a call. QUO brings all calls, texts, and voicemails into one organized hub. So anyone on the team can view full conversation histories and respond quickly. Set up takes just minutes on any device. Keep existing business numbers and add team members seamlessly with zero IT hassles. Plus, QUO's optional built-in AI agent will handle your after hours calls by answering

53:33questions and booking appointments, ensuring no lead ever slips away. It also integrates directly with everyday tools like HubSpot to save time. Trusted by over 90,000 businesses, QUO is the number one rated business phone system on G2. Keep every connection alive and look professional every day. Money is on the line. Always say hello with QUO. Try QUO for free. Plus get 20% off of your first six months when you go to QUO.com slash MK. That's q-u-o.com slash MK. I take it from this discussion. You are against falling asleep to an audiobook or a podcast. Yes and no. So after now, you know, six years of doing public health science education, I've come to the place where you know, I was a years ago, I took kids backpacking in the assembly. That was my summer job. And you learn something working with teenagers, which is be a channel, not a damn. And it turns out

54:36that you want to do the same with adults. If listening to a podcast or having the news on helps you fall asleep, I actually suggest you keep doing it. I do. But if you're waking up four hours later and having a hard time getting back to sleep, you might want to think about how the light from the screen or that noise might be impacting you. You know, this whole thing of listening to stuff out of interest is one thing. But when we're listening to podcasts while we sleep or we are leaving the TV on, I think it reflects a much bigger, I always ask myself as a scientist, why are people doing this? And I think they're doing it because it's hard to turn our thoughts off. You know, one of the practices I talk about and I'm happy to share now, I talk about in the book, I'm happy to share now is this practice of non-sleep deep rest, which sounds like meditation, sounds like a nap, but it's not. You know, one of the great super skills in life that I wish I had had years ago is the following. Some people have what's can really, we call it low

55:37activation energy, meaning they have a lot of get up and go. You say, let's do this, they get up and do it. They go, go, they're ambitious, they're doing sports, they're doing this. Those people tend to be the same people that have a hard time turning their mind off. Other people have the motivation issue, although I don't have an issue with sleep, I just like, I have an issue with motivation procrastination is an issue, right? That's what they say. People who are getting after it, they're exercising, et cetera, they're thinking about business, family, they want to man, the woes of the world, or even just the small things are circulating in their head, need to learn to get the mind out of thinking and doing and planning and spend a few minutes in order to fall asleep in just pure sensation. And there's a practice that was actually developed in India thousands of years ago called yoga nidra, which means yoga sleep. It involves no movement where you do, this won't come as a surprise now. I call it non-sleep deep rest, but you take a few minutes during the day and you could do it sitting or lying down and you close your eyes, you do a few long

56:39exhales to slow your heart rate down. And instead of meditating by trying to maintain focus on you know, between your forehead or instead of trying to clear your mind, that's almost impossible to do, right? The clear your mind, no, impossible. It's like the don't think of the elephant, you know, you can't not think of it. Instead, you migrate your thoughts like a spotlight around your body, your feet, the other foot, your knee, the other knee, your heart, your body. And what you're doing there is you're occupying just enough of the brain's attention that it makes it very easy to do. You're not trying to turn off your thoughts, but what ends up happening is you stop thinking and planning and you start just going into pure sensation. And when you do that, the brain goes into, we now know from really good science goes into this kind of liminal state between a sleep and awake and little pockets of the brain start mimicking sleep. Three things happen when you come out of this practice and it could be five minutes, could be 10 minutes, could be 20. There are a lot of these non-sleep deep breaths, scripts out on the internet now, some with my

57:41voice, some with much more pleasant voices and so on. They're all zero cost. And you emerge from it feeling mentally and physically restored. That's interesting. Learning of physical information, cognitive information is enhanced in people that do this. You could do this once a week, three times a week or daily. It takes very little time. And people's ability to fall asleep gets better. People recover from traumatic experiences better. What's going on here? What is going on? What's going on is threefold. First of all, we now know that in these states of deep relaxation, that are not meditation and are not a nap, there's a clear out of debris from the brain. This is called glimphatic clearance. We don't have time to go into the mechanisms, but there's a clearance of the of all the stuff of of cellular metabolism in the brain. Ammonia, carbon dioxide, like cellular debris. The ability to clear that stuff out has been shown to offset the development of dementia,

58:43reduces the likelihood of dementia, helps you maintain brain function. In addition, and some people will just usually find that people, this is the one that really gets people. If you've ever had a poor night's sleep, he always bags under your eyes, not yours, but speaking metaphorically here. You certainly don't have this. Whatever you're doing, you're doing all the right things clearly. But we've all had this good stuff. If I do, we have the wrong lighting in here. I'm glad. Well, I don't believe that. But in any case, if you've ever had one poor night's sleep, you look in the mirror and you go, oh my god, what is that? Have you ever wondered why then two days later after you slept well, you're back to great. What happened? Turns out it's the build up of glimps, this lymphatic fluid under the eyes. In the eyes, you can even see in somebody that hasn't slept well. Their eyes don't quite look right. There's actually lymphatic, glimphatic clearance from the eyes. These practices of deep relaxation, as well as sleep, where the majority of this clearance of this waste product and the glimphatic clearance occurs,

59:43you can build in these micropractices throughout the day, or just one minute or five minutes of doing this. And you're offsetting dementia. You come out of it mentally and physically restored. You don't have the sleep inertia, the groginess of a nap. And we're finding that people learn faster. It's great for stress mitigation. I mean, the myriad benefits. Again, which is called protocols. You write about, you can listen to a scripted NSDR session, non-sleep, deep rest, scripted. So where can we find that? What's that? Is that like on YouTube? Yeah, you can find these on YouTube, Apple, Spotify. You can download them for completely free, download them to your phones. So you don't even have a Wi-Fi connection. You can be on the plane or wherever. You can, I put a bunch of them that I really like. You go to HubermanLab.com slash NSDR. Or you could simply do a web search and just put NSDR for a really pleasant woman's voice. My friend Kelly Boise, B-O-Y-S, does wonderful NSDRs. She's in the waking up app also. There's some with my voice. You can find some, there's a guy

1:00:46named Liam Gillen, who is my sister really likes his Irish voice. I think she has a bit of a crush on him, if I'm honest. Sorry to my sister. But she loves his voice. She's like, he has the best voice. She does limbs. And these are so simple. They cost nothing. And by the way, the reason I renamed Yoganidra NSDR and put these scripts out into the world is I intentionally took away all the intentions, the mysticism. I want to acknowledge the people that initially developed a Yoganidra. But when people hear Yoganidra and then they hear they have to do intentions, that takes a- I'm not sure if my truckers are into it. Exactly. That takes away from the practice. And it's sort of like the word hypnosis. I have a colleague at Stanford who does medical hypnosis. Incredible success rates at a smoking cessation. Pain modulation. Even outcomes from cancer treatment. But I always tell him this, you need to rebrand this thing because in his hands, hypnosis is

1:01:47rapid brain plasticity, rewiring of the brain. But people hear hypnosis and they think stage hypnosis and people squawking like chickens. So what I'm talking about- You're going to get to hear whether it's cortisol or darkness, light, breathing, exhales, non-sleep deep breaths. I really want to emphasize what I'm talking about is taking your God-given physiology. Okay. The cells and circuits in your brain and body that you were endowed with and just putting them to their best use for your health. That's the whole story. In the book I get in, I do talk about supplements and pharmaceuticals. I talk about nicotine, both benefits and risks. I talk about how one can- if you like to have a drink or two, how you can do that and not disrupt your sleep or health as much. At least eight to ten hours before you go to bed. Ten hours. You're in favor of the dardy is basically what we're learning. This is the college terms for the day part. You got to keep that shit well away from the time it's go- you go to bed. I don't drink. I did it in my past. I don't drink now. But I understand people- there

1:02:49are people like alcohol. Have your glass of wine. But then do a couple of things, simple things like I just described to keep your sleep good or great. We actually don't know whether the negative effects of alcohol- I'm going to have a low amounts of alcohol- could very well be due to the disruption that alcohol has on sleep. Do a few other things and look if you go out and have a bunch of drinks with your friends and you're safe about it. You're not alcoholic and you're a vege. You're going to be okay. I think that some people have taken my podcast in my book to mean that everything has to be very rigid. I start off the book by saying, listen, op true optimization is about accepting who you are and what you are and are not going to do. Then trying to get the most vigor and enjoyment out of life and most life while also having the occasional sleepless night. Sometimes due to crisis, sometimes due to celebration. That's life. This is a reminder. Something recently happened at X. You may have seen it. Brian Johnson, the don't die guy,

1:03:50who's been on this show. He's posted- and he knows he's going to get hit for these things. I kind of admire his honesty, but he posted- last night I had dinner at a restaurant. I asked for caffeine-free coffee. I'm convinced they brought me caffeinated. The sleep protocol was off. I could not do my morning dunk session, which I think is related to basketball. I think he means actual dunking. I know I don't know with Brian Johnson. You never know. They had to cancel it because at my whole evening and day were disrupted. And the responses were so funny. One of them was basically- Michael Jordan once had 10 beers and then played a game in which he scored 50 points. And they went on to do a round of golf at which he was like X under par. It's like we have weakened ourselves. And especially this is a man-to-man situation to the point. Beyond shame. You should be able to have one night of a cup of coffee and not post about it. And the whole

1:04:53next day's activities are off. Come on. We actually are somewhat resilient. Yes. So a couple of brief points about that. I know Brian. So yes, X is an environment where you don't want to show weakness. Most certainly if you're going to make exercise claims, you need to put videos. And if you put videos, don't confuse. You have to use proper form and full range of motion. Or the guys are going to hammer you. It's a very- There should be a third party in your life, someone who doesn't love or work for you, who approves of said video before it gets posted. So when Brian put that out there, I think there's three phenomenon going on. One is- I look at Brian's content. I think he's mostly generating entertainment content for people. His takeaways about sleep are very valid. But it's more of a caricature of longevity in my opinion.

1:05:54If I'm honest, I think that most people are not going to do all the things he's doing. And then he has this chronic disease, which kind of undercut the story. Anyway, listen, I think it's great that he's out there. Just like I think it's great that Matt Cable lines out there and Eric Topo, you need- this is one thing that people really need to understand about health and longevity in the online communities. In science, in medicine, and I observe this in the world of skateboarding and action sports, you need a community that represent the sort of different extremes, right? In skateboarding, we have our Tony Hawk, we had my friend Danny Wei who jumped the Great Wall of China. You need the variety of characters, right? And in science, you see this too. I don't have time to go into it now, but I grew up in science and you get a lot of characters. And you need the battles, you need all that. But at the end of the day, people are after truth. And some things end up being more for entertainment purposes and the take- Yeah, and that's fine. And if it gets people paying attention to the space, it's still being- Right, right. Okay, let me keep it going. I have a question for you as a neuroscientist about OCD.

1:07:00Because I- maybe it's just my anecdotal impression, but I feel like it's growing. I feel like I don't know a mom or a dad that doesn't have a kid with this or that isn't doing it themselves. I've got a little bit of this in my own life, not like handwashing, but just like repetitive movements or counting in my own head. And yet I don't think of myself as an anxious person. I don't feel any active anxiety pretty much ever. But I do have a tinge of this. So is there- is that a neuroscientist thing and might some of these techniques? Because you're big into stress management in the book and there are tons of tools for stress management. And I don't know how you'd classify that. Is that stress? What is that? Yeah, a great question. So whether we're talking about ADHD or OCD, we need to separate the sort of the semblance of those things that many, many, many people have in this normal versus the full-blown pathology. So the clinical definition of OCD is when the compulsion, the behavior actually doesn't suppress

1:08:02the obsession, it makes it worse. So people who have true OCD, they feel like they need to wash their hands, they wash their hands, and then they feel like they need to do it more. They feel like they need to count, they count, then they feel like they need to do it more. And it's maddening. It is a, it is a, they are stricken. And they'll do it till their hands are raw, they'll put, there's the, you know, the hair pulling version of it. There's some very, very severe manifestations of this. But OCD in that form is just an extreme version of something that many, many people have. Just like, I'll give another example. If you go to a bridge and you think, oh my gosh, like, what's keeping me from jumping off? Or people have thoughts on the go, oh my goodness, like, why did I have that thought? That's actually a healthy reflection of your ability to suppress action and thoughts, right? You're not going to act on those things. It's perfectly normal. Now, when we're tired, when we are stressed, symptoms of OCD and people that don't have full-blown clinical OCD can worsen. Now, I know these days for understandable reason,

1:09:03there's a lot of concern about SSRIs. And I agree that when you look at the data, it's clear that many, many too many adults and children were medicated with, with SSRIs. But I will say, in fairness to the scientific literature, SSRIs have greatly helped people with severe OCD. OCD, we know, is associated with an overgrowth of a particular brain area in what's called a circuit called the basal ganglia. It's involved in action and suppressing action. And a brilliant scientist at NIH in Judith Rappaport discovered this years ago. Remember, prior to the 90s, like when I started learning about neuroscience, I claimed no discovery here, but it was thought that this was all psychological or bad parenting or trauma-based of which it can be. But we know this is a brain issue. So those drugs in the proper hands and proper dosages can really help people as can behavioral treatments. In people like you, I'm assuming you don't have full-blown clinical OCD based on what you told me, or people who say, I can't be a ten. I just like, when I,

1:10:04well, I noticed when I was practicing law, where I was working all the time and not getting a lot of sleep, whenever I was walking on the streets of New York, I was counting my steps. Or when I'd go up or down a staircase, I would count the number of stairs. It, like, little things would just pop up here there in your day, where you're, then you're like, why am I counting? What am I doing? Right? Did something like that? It's a great question. And then, you know, in some cultures, they worry beads, right, where people are constantly moving the beads in their hands to sort of dispel some of the energy. I will venture a guess here, an educated guess, that you have a lot of energy. You're a focused person. You're always looking for ways that you can do better and be better and so on. And people like that, when there's not a task right in front of them, tend to have a lot of energy pouring into the system, the same way that I've always had bulldog mastiff months. And they love to run, then they're lazy. But if you don't give them enough exercise, they start knowing, they start knowing on their paw. They need, they need to chew. We all have our chew, right? A

1:11:08bulldog needs to know a retriever needs to retrieve a rat terrier needs to look for things. And as humans, we have these tendencies where our brain circuits become thankfully asymmetric towards learning, teaching, communicating. Look, you're on, you're in front of the public eye every, virtually every single day. And it's high stakes, right? And it's, and so your system learns to relax in that. You are a high level professional athlete, thinker, communicator, learner, doer. And so when you're walking down the street, it's hard to just switch brain modes to, oh, I'm just walking down the street. Now I'm just going to be in my most chill form. And so the brain starts looking for things to do. Count, think about things. Sometimes listening to a, a podcast or a book can help. It's very hard to turn the brain off. And it's actually not advantageous for you to walk out of a meeting or this podcast, walk to lunch. And during that walk to lunch, you're just completely decompressed. And then you eat your lunch and you come back and you snap back on the brain

1:12:09doesn't work in what we call step wave function, in square wave functions. You don't go from a sleep awake, awake to asleep. They're these transition states. So when you're walking down the street and you're thinking, I'm kind of obsessing about that. Why? Well, there's some carryover from the previous thing. Just like if you were, you know, waking up, you don't immediately feel wide awake and ready to go about your day, there's some, you know, there's some shifting of circuits. And actually in the final chapter of the book, I talk about tools for tasks switching. You know, many people find that they can't focus. But actually their challenge is in dropping the mindset from the previous thing to be able to focus. For you and me who do public facing work, it's a requirement, right? Our phones aren't out. You know, we have to be locked in, but I bet within 10 minutes of ending this, like one of us will pick up our phone most likely. And so that's normal. It's healthy, but don't expect your brain to shut off completely. And it, I'll just weave one other thing in here. Many people are having attention issues these days. There's a study that was

1:13:11done recently that shows that if your phone is upside down on the table in front of you, or it's in your bag under your chair completely turned off. You have a harder time focusing compared to if it's in a different room. But it turns out you can focus if it's on the table or it's underneath your chair. The problem is it takes more mental resources and you give up what is essentially intelligence, cognitive flexibility, and creativity. So there's a cost. But more importantly, if you're used to looking at your phone every three minutes or so, when your phone is not there, every three minutes or so or less, your brain gets distracted with no distraction. The brain learns these rhythms of the sun comes up in the morning. It goes down at night. I'm alert in the morning because I got my morning sunlight or one of these 10,000 lux lights. I dim the lights. This is something we call entrainment. And the beauty of this is that if you take everything we've talked about and you do it for a couple of days, the bright lights and the bright mornings, darker nights,

1:14:14you try and limit your phone for just fight the impulse just every other time to reach for just for an extra 10 seconds. What happens is you naturally start to feel more alert when you wake up in the morning, even before you got the light in your eyes. I always get the question, how come I wake up one minute before my alarm clock? Guess why? Because that rising cord is all is what wakes you up. And that is entrained to your alarm clock. Now you can entrain it to sunlight also. And guess what? On the day when you miss it because it's really dreary out in the Northeast, you'll still feel plenty alert. And at night, I'm going to start texting you pictures of me in January outside. Great. Well, saying, damn that Andrew, you're missing. Listen, I will be happy to gift you a 10,000 lux artificial light. I send them to people who say, I'm just not going to go outside. I'm just not going to, I'm not going to go outside. I'm not going to do it. Just and flip on all the screens. Some music or just wake yourself up. You will find that book ending your day in this way. And just understanding a bit about my brain is

1:15:16doing something normal and healthy here. I'm counting things. I have a little bit of a superstitious streak. I get it. And it's our brain's attempt to have some control, but also just to take this attention, this energy that we have and put it someplace. And dogs need it. Humans need it. We need more focus and we need deeper sleep and brighter days and all of that. But I also want to emphasize, we need to be human. You need to enjoy your life. Right? I think I think people saw that the Brian thing and they, I think he did do it more for entertainment purposes. And we said, we're out. And it's like, look, most people sleep to prepare for the next day. Clearly, he's, he spends his day is preparing to sleep. It's just an inversion of the of the life design. But most people are not going to do that. So he's going to live forever for what? That's not living. Thank God. At least he has a girlfriend now. The girl who's been helping him do his online posts. So that's, that's a plus for Brian. Let me ask you a question about on the question of light. The issue of light expose your skin and eyes to long wavelength light. And you say it can be

1:16:24red light near infrared and infrared. Now I, I feel like I've, I've heard you talk about this, but I can't remember these specifics because red light is becoming more and more popular. Like women are doing it. Red light therapy on their face for, you know, even skin tone and so on. Some men are doing infrared or, you know, saw on us. What, what is the story with your eyes exposing your eyes to red light or infrared light? Yeah. So the best zero cost, but perfect source of long wavelength light, meaning red light and infrared light. Infrared light is the warmth, the warmth from the sun is sunlight, right? God built us the perfect light device for our mitochondria, for our skin, for our hormone health, et cetera. There's only one problem. You can't do it on your schedule. You have to do it on the sun schedule because what you want is the long wavelength light.

1:17:24So these are the yellows, oranges, reds, and then outpass red is infrared, right? We can't see it, but we can feel it. That's the stuff that's great for our mitochondria and that my colleague, Glen Jeffrey at University College, London, and I've known him for decades did these studies, as I mentioned earlier, shine, you get that light on your skin or even through a T-shirt or light shirt and your metabolism is improved, but it also turns out that if you're 40 or older, if you get this long wavelength light on your skin or ideally in your eyes, you can do that from the morning sunlight viewing or afternoon sunlight viewing, sunset viewing. You help repair the cells in the back of the eyes called the photo receptors. These are the cells that take photons of light convert them into electrical energy that allows you to see. And Pete, and you can offset what he showed in that study was that you can offset some of the age-related vision loss. You also offset myopia, which is near-sightedness. Now I had to start wearing

1:18:26readers recently because of writing this book because I was spending so much time up close to a screen. When you look at things too close up and you don't see horizons very much, you're not looking at a distance very much, the eyeball lengthens. And the visual image lands in front of the light sensing portion of the eye, not on it. That's what corrective lenses do. They bring the light point to focus on to the right location. There is a true epidemic of myopia of near-sightedness and the data on kids and their data emerging on adults too is that if kids just take their tablets computers outside, if you get outside more, you offset this. So the long wavelength light turns out to be the key. Sunlight is full spectrum. You have UV, short wavelength, medium, and long wavelength. And the balance is key. You don't want too much UV because it can indeed damage your skin. There's a lot of debate nowadays about how much sunlight you need some UV for vitamin deproduction and for mood and health. But you don't want to get a sunburn. And indeed, it can

1:19:27cause accelerated aging the skin if you're getting too much UV. We could talk about that if you like. But getting some long wavelength light from sunlight or, and or I would say, you could get a red light, like a red light LED device. You could use a red incandescent light. We don't have a lot of farmers out. I can put goggles on. You could put so, so in the evening, I will put on short wavelength blocking glasses. They look red tinted, but that's to block the short wavelengths. But when you're out during the day, you're getting a lot of long wavelength light penetrating the skin. It's benefiting you and it's benefiting your eyes. But the study showed this offset of age-related vision loss is when people get enough long wavelength light. And if you're indoors, he's in England. So that study was done where people are spending a lot of time indoors. They're under LED lights, which we all use now because they're more energy efficient. Candle light will do it. So if you light candles in the evening or if you, or if you have a fire in the fireplace or here's a,

1:20:28here's a cool trick. The farmers taught me this. They have a cheap, an inexpensive solution to all this. You get it, what they call it a pig light. It's a red incandescent bulb. And it supplies long wavelength light. Farmers knew this. It's very interesting actually is I've written this book. So you don't have to stare at the bulb. You just have to be near it. It fills the room. And the beauty of long wavelength light is that it bounces off surfaces all over. So you don't have to be looking right at it. If you can get outside in a green space, if I were to give you infrared goggles, like the special operators wear, you would notice that everything green was glowing white. And that's because the long wavelength light is bouncing off it. It's getting reflected down on there's wonderful work showing that recovery from surgery, recovery from illness, staving off illness, including upper respiratory infections, skin health, eye health, longevity, is get that long wavelength light. The key is to not get too much UV because that can be damaging. So that's why sunlight can be like a red light bed. Yeah. But infrared sonas are great. If you

1:21:33can afford one, an infrared incandescent light is great. An LED panel, they tend to be pretty expensive. But the incandescent light are not terribly expensive. And as I've talked to more and more farmers, they laugh, right? They're like, I get up with the sun. I go outside, I'm carrying stuff, I'm doing work, I'm drinking my coffee. Then I have breakfast afterwards. I might catch a quick nap in the afternoon, but I have to go out in the evening, take the animals in, take care of things. I'm not suggesting we go back to living that way, but they nailed it. They nailed it. It wasn't so bad. They nailed all the light. It's funny that when you mentioned the candlelight, in law school, we had to sit alphabetically. So the guy next to me on the one side was named Andy Kelly. And Andy Kelly was starting to lose his close-up vision, you know, he from all the reading and law school and so on. And he told me at the time that he reversed it by staring at candlelight. And I remember being like, really? Is that even possible? And he saw it was possible. And here I am sitting across from here, you're moving and hearing. Yeah, it's possible. I mean, I think the

1:22:37I think the highly processed foods conversation for the next two years, you're going to hear two things like I anticipate will be really big in the health space. Cortisol will no longer be seen as this stress hormone. It will be seen as the thing to leverage high morning, low at night. I hope to play a role in that. The other thing that you're going to hear quite a lot about is how all these LED lights, which are incredibly energy efficient. I mean, how often do you have to change a light bulb nowadays, hardly ever? The problem is their short wavelength shifted. It's not the blue light. It's that there isn't enough long wavelength light. So we're going to hear about supplementing with long wavelength light. That does not mean you have to buy a red light panel, candle light, fireplace, get outside when the sun is low in the sky, either near sunrise or near sunset. Get that long wavelength light immensely beneficial, also for mental health and for physical health. It's so interesting that so many of the things we're talking about in health are about undoing the damage from the lifestyle and technologies that we built. But there's also just a lot of this notion that

1:23:39we used to be scared of saber-toothed tigers. That's why we stress. No, I mean, 10,000 years ago, I guarantee that people were concerned about their loved ones when they went off to hunter-gather relationships had issues. Kids got sick. Stress has always been a part of life. The key is to teach yourself how to de-stress, to get great sleep, turn your mind off, get focused in alert. And I'm a consumer of caffeine. And if you want, we could talk about nicotine. But these are just skills that take minutes, if that, to learn because they work the first time in every time. You know, so there's no learning curve in anything I'm saying. I'm not saying, listen, if you go outside for three days in a row, then these cells will learn. It's morning. No, the first time you do it, it works. And it works the first time in every time. We've all heard those radio ads about owing money to the IRS. They try to scare you and push you into calling out of fear. But tax relief advocates takes a different approach. If you owe the IRS 5,000, 50,000 or even 500,000,

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1:26:51I wanted to talk about embrace errors. There's a whole long bit in the book about embracing errors, saying they embrace the fact that errors are an essential trigger for learning. Errors that come from genuine attempts to learn something are the signal for plasticity to occur. This is true for all forms of skill development, cognitive, motor, musical, mathematical, etc. So whether you're learning a sport, a musical instrument or history or news for that matter, making errors in the process of learning is critical. So can you expand on that? Yes. So if I could put a banner across the sky, I would want people to understand the following message. The agitation you feel from not being able to do something through a genuine attempt. So not throw away errors. That agitation is the reflection of the release of certain molecules.

1:27:54We call them neuromodulators in the brain and body that tell your nervous system you need to change to close the gap between what you're trying to do and what you currently can do. Okay? We don't tell kids this. We don't tell adults this. And so we think the friction that comes from the attempt to learn that that somehow is signaling that we're in the wrong place. No, if you think about it logically, if your nervous system could do something, if your brain could do it, if your body could do it, why would it change? It wouldn't. And we've been so captivated by this concept of flow, which is a beautiful concept. But this idea of, you know, forgetting ourselves and just being able to do the skill. I mean, this is unfortunately the consequence of science fiction and movies where somebody gets the sword, they drink the drink, they are wake up and you know, they get hit by lightning and now they have superpowers like damn that Harry Potter, right? You know, like, no, that's not how it works. That's this thing called fantasy. The way it works is that you know nothing. You go from unskilled to skilled, skilled to mastery,

1:29:02mastery to virtuosity. How do you do that? You make genuine attempts to do something. In order to do that, you have to be alert and focused. So you have to learn to focus and I talk about that in that chapter. Then you can't do it. That's the signal your nervous system needs to change. You get some rest from sleep or non-sleep deep rest, ideally both. And you come back a day or two later, and you can sort of do the thing. Huh, amazing. We all know this to be true. But it turns out that errors are the signal to your nervous system that needs to change. But your nervous system doesn't know error. It knows that it's your nervous system speaks to the neuron speak to each other in electricity and chemicals. So agitation and that low level stress. So alert but calm but a little bit stressed, that signals it's time to change. Here's the best way to think about it. If you've ever played that game hot hands, where your hands are on top of someone else's hands, and the person underneath is going to flip their hands over and hit your hands. That's the level of attention and

1:30:04kind of alertness that you need to learn. That just to me describes it perfectly. You so you're not stressed, but you're not too relaxed either. So you have to be wrapped with attention and looking for something ready for something, trying to throw the dart to the bullseye, trying to you know, hit the you know, sink the, sink the ball, trying to learn the language. So you have to pay attention. There's only so much you can do in a given learning. I call them learning bouts because it should feel like a fight with yourself. And if you're too stressed, you can't do it. Now, there's even studies that show that if you take a drug like propanolol, beta blocker, conventional beta blocker, after you try to learn something, you don't learn it. Because the adrenaline, the adrenaline in your body, and nor epinephrine in your brain are two of the key neuromodulators for learning. This is why unfortunately, traumatic experiences, unfortunately, are one trial learning, right? If you step off the curb and a car almost hits you, okay, you can probably go about your day, okay, but you have a

1:31:12changed relationship to that location, okay? And the, what happened was there's a lot of adrenaline and trauma comes about when there's so much adrenaline that it grabs memories that are unassociated with the event. So now the sound of cars just gets you ramped up. Doesn't matter if the car's driving away from you. The walking out on the street gets you ramped up. And then the process is of also a plasticity where you have to unlearn, you have to unlearn the emotions. And now we every form of trauma therapy, whether it's, you know, EMDR or it's talk therapy is about getting you into a calmer emotional state while recounting the event. You're not going to forget the thing. It's about peeling off the emotional load. So when you want to learn something, what I call self-directed adaptive plasticity, it's not a bunch of words, but to distinguish it from bad plasticity, because brain damage is a form of plasticity, but it's not one you want. But when you're trying to learn something, you have to be alert so you can be focused. I talk about ways to do that. Should you or should you not use caffeine or nicotine? Should you or should you not take a cold shower first?

1:32:15Well, the best way to get alert is to have a good night's sleep the night before. But caffeine helps to hydration helps to. And if you really care about something, that helps too, right? Even kids with severe ADHD can concentrate on their favorite video game. We know this. They don't have a focus issue. They have a focus on things they don't like issue. Adults as well. This is important. And then they you focus and then you have to try and do something. I'm trying. I'm trying and people, I hear it all the time. I'm not good at that. I'm not good at that. Why? I don't know. It stresses me out. Great. Now's the opportunity to learn. One of the reasons why exercise helps your brain. There are many reasons helps with better oxygenation of the brain, better sleep, etc. But one of the reasons that you learn so much better in the four or five hours after exercise is that it makes you more alert because you have epinephrine and nor epinephrine circulating in your brain and body. So a lot of the positive effects of exercise are it's true. I should say that yes, exercise makes your brain better. But really it should be exercise gives you the opportunity to learn. You don't get

1:33:20smarter by exercising. Anyone that's known like a pure joke can attest to that. That's a joke against my joke friends. But anyone that just exercises isn't getting smarter. That's not true. It gives you the opportunity to learn because you come out of that exercise provided you didn't exhaust yourself. We're not talking two hours of squats or something. You come out of that exercise and you feel different. Why? What is that dopamine epinephrine, nor epinephrine, the so-called cataclysmines? That cocktail of neurochemicals primes you for learning. So, 2026, 27, come out of exercise. Maybe you read for a moment. Maybe you sit and do some emotional learning. Some people are trying to be a better spouse. They're trying to be better to themselves. And this sounds so silly, right? But to sit there and think, I'm going to try and be a little bit kinder to myself today or to other people. It sounds really squishy, right? But if you're in a certain state of mind, it actually works. It carries over. But just telling yourself, I'm going to be

1:34:24a nicer person, like saying, I'm going to be kinder to myself. That's about as effective as telling yourself, I'm going to learn fluent Japanese by saying I'm going to learn fluent Japanese. No, it's the state that you're in when you set that intention to learn. It's the state that you're in when you arrive at the learning. And so, we can all learn new things. It's just a function of being alert, being focused, and getting into that agitation, and then going and doing something else, and you'll come back better. You will you will master that skill over time. Well, you write about personal growth in the book. And I was actually just talking about this with my audience. I've mentioned it many times. People generally know it. But I was saying, and this is in your book as well, you like the let in my view, the less time spent thinking about the past, the better. I just I try to stay away from it. And I've had a great life. It's not because I had a ton of trauma. I had some things, but I definitely don't ruminate on them. And when I start

1:35:28going to them, I try to get myself off of them. And I can pretty quickly. I just find no good comes from it. And I'm trying to teach my kids that same skill. Like there's really no point in just ruminating or going back or reliving some unfortunate moment, the less time spent thinking about it, the better. And kind of the same about the future. Like some some planning is required to exist on this earth and make something out of yourself. You know, you have to figure out if you want to take a big vacation in June and it's December, you might need to buy an airline ticket and so on. But the best thing for happiness is to be in the present. And they say that all the time now. And it is harder. It's easier said than done. But you've got some tips in the book, which I thought were quite clever. Again, the book is called Protocols by Andrew Hubertman right here. You can get it on preorder right now. It's coming out soon. And I thought these were clever. Like questions that you can ask about your environment that will bring you right right into the room unavoidably. Yeah, the past. Okay, two most dangerous words in the English

1:36:32language are if only I stand by that. I didn't say that. Someone once said that to me, you you cannot live in if only that that that that is death. That is spiritual death. That's so that I'll just leave there as a to me a hard truth. I will say I'll put it a different way as my as my dear friend always says the past is like your ass behind you. So being the data. That's a good one. The data definitely say large scale data sets definitely say that being present correlates with happiness. And that's true. Even if you're in unpleasant present circumstances. So you're with someone who's sick in the hospital. Interesting. Try not to distract yourself. But you need to sleep to be a great caretaker. So I have to I'm going to put two caveats and then total agreement. The first caveat there's a section in the book where I talk about data from this guy named James Pena Baker

1:37:34who developed a tool called expressive writing where if you're having if there's something in the back of your mind that you can't shake an experience you cannot shake a time when you experience shame or a trauma. There are now tens of thousands of quality studies showing that if you take 15 minutes but just 15 not more and you write about that four days in a row by the end of the fourth day you will have significantly offloaded a lot of the emotional load of that thing. So I want to be fair to that. So if there's something that like I use their turn sometimes that you know they're these past experiences that are kind of like barbed wire like we they're painful to get off and they're painful to stay on. So Pena Baker exercise costs nothing you can tear up the paper afterwards actually it suggests you do four days in a row you will feel significantly better say the data. Pretty incredible writing does seem to be important the handwriting it out. Set a timer do it you

1:38:38will come out of that first session not feeling great but you'll move about your day. Symptoms of health immune system function improves they've done all the measures of biology and psychology that one would want to see and it's really impressive okay so that that aside the other thing as I'll just mention a saying I didn't come up with but I that I love is and it's harsh but the difference between winners and losers is the following. Losers take things that happen to them happen to them or that they did that they wish they hadn't done and they take the negative feelings around those things and they use it for self or outward destruction winners I think we would all agree take the hard things that happen to them as well as the gifts they've been given they think about them as much as they need to but then they transmute that those experiences maybe years of experience into things that good for them and for the world period end of story I know it's harsh winners and losers but

1:39:43let's face it most of the bad stuff in the world is because people are taking bad stuff that happen to them and doing bad stuff they feel justified in doing it there's some full blown psychosis type stuff but let me just let me just interject quickly last week we watched the Novak Jokovic documentary the Wolf of Winter he's impressive which is I think I'm Netflix right now and of course he's like he's the goat and that's saying something in the world of tennis because there are others who are just right there with him but he's got the most wins when it comes to Grand Slam which is how they measure it so the the the the movie it's two hours long is very good but Jokovic is a controversial guy or was very controversial when he started in the tennis world because he was less mature he did some mocking of other players he suddenly got injured in matches that he was losing when he was younger and this turned a lot of people on him and for years he was booed he was never the favorite they created a rivalry in tennis between Federer and Nadal Jokovic wasn't part

1:40:44of it even though he was up and coming and then very much was in it with those two but would be the lesser than he has a line in his documentary table for three please but they weren't giving this to him because he was never the favorite and what Jokovic talked about was there's something in Serbian culture called in it that makes you thrive on that and people who aren't Serbian or don't have that natural mindset couldn't understand that all those booze and treating him like a second-class citizen and making him feel like odd man out even when he was number one in the world only fueled him to win more and in fact he's somebody who kind of needs it in order to win so all of his detractors were inadvertently helping him now he's it's changed he's beloved and he's matured and he's totally likable in this documentary entirely but in any event when you talk about that that's what I'm thinking of somebody who takes what could be traumatizing for someone else

1:41:44being openly booed by the entire stadium at the Australian open which you've won something like 16 times and where you should be a king because you leave after getting seriously hurt this is later in a square openly booed what you could you could be talking about that as your trauma on a self-help show instead he it's fuel for him and it's a positive so this is what you're talking about I look I it goes back to the beginning of our conversation the biggest mistake I made in life the biggest mistake and I own it completely even though I was only 14 was taking the circumstances of my family life at the time and not continuing to apply myself in certain areas of life I should have you know you could say well you're only 14 okay fine and it all worked out but it was a moment and I talk about this in the book it was you know a moment it was a physical altercation when I was you know first year away at school that made me realize if I don't take the hard things that have happened

1:42:51and do something with my life no no one's going to care and I won't have any self-respect the the story of a of a hard childhood is something that we can all like we feel compassion for but I realized I'm like I'm gonna be like a genuine loser I was like I'm gonna be a genuine loser it doesn't matter what else I do unless I I actually turn my life into something worthwhile and I start developing agency I started running I started exercising I started studying and I had to fasten myself to a chair with a timer I had to I mean I I will say and I know people work I worked like a maniac and I still work very very hard and so I have great respect for anyone that can take hardship or shame and I've had other things like my advisors dying and mistakes I've made and there's this transmutation we call it you take the negative energy and you have to like pretzel twisted into this expression that is good for you and for the world or at least not destructive I mean I think this is why yeah jokovic or like or David Goggins you know we love these people because

1:43:59they're doing it we can we can feel David's pain I mean I've sat down with David I knew him before he had a book and got famous and he was the exact same guy we actually were at a meeting in San Jose this is a wild story and we finished up this meeting as private meeting wasn't being recorded and he said I'm gonna run to the airport he meant run to the airport he put on his back he ran like 16 miles to San Jose airport no book no fame no nothing no cameras and I was like the luggage he just like he's like rocked his backpack it was incredible and I thought oh my that's where our you know I don't seem that much but you know because he's off on his own running but I've got a bunch of Goggins stories from before he got famous and he was the same guy he's in a battle with himself the self hate voice he came on my podcast every day he hears europea garbage european that came from the outside but eventually he internalized and when you realize that it's all in your head you realize that you can and need to flip the script flip the script and it there's nothing

1:45:00more beautiful about humans is then our ability to do this and for people who don't have intense hardship what not because a lot of times now kids will come to you and be like I don't have the trauma story I'm like great well don't get soft you know like you didn't have that you know and a lot of wealthy parents approach me what do I do my kid is like a total loser they don't or my kid doesn't want to work because they got all this dopamine they got everything they wanted with no effort dopamine and rewards without effort first destroy a human it just destroys a human it's like giving your dog a treat just for being cute you get a you get an unhealthy dog that dies early fact the dogs have we all have this sometimes it's more latent than in others than in others but we have this desire to work we want that friction and overcome that that's what makes us feel so alive and that we have capacity and then of course peace and joy and meaning it doesn't have to all be about the grind but you know everyone will tell you that the the peace and meaning and love

1:46:01and connection that's all much better on a backdrop of hard work I you know at the story so I don't believe in focusing on the past but I do believe in transmuting your past into goodness for you and for others and I believe yeah that if something if you're really stuck you really stuck you need to get off the barbed wire and that pennebaker writing exercise costs nothing has been shown to be very effective and the idea is that you do it and then you move on it's nothing you do it every day you do it and then you move on the other piece well but I'm sorry on the I just want to raise what you wrote in chapter seven because you you give people this actual tool writing if your thoughts are elsewhere re-tether them to the present ask questions anchored in your current surroundings this is such a good tool like I've never heard somebody do this before because they just say be in the present be in the present be in the moment which is very hard for somebody who's a warrior or an obsessor about the past then you suggest ask questions like how cold or warm is it in this room

1:47:09what does it smell like how many people in line in front of me are on their phone it's sadder but something you say I realize this is trivial but it returns your perceptions to the present because they can only be answered right here and now I love this yeah so that came about because you know somewhere around 2015 I look I was about to get 10 year Stanford my life was great but I noticed I had accumulated a lot of stress and I started studying stress and stress mitigation and I found no one could give me a real-time tool for de-stressing fast then I discovered the physiological side it had been around since the 30s but I was hearing all about grit resilience and mental toughness and no one was telling me how just all these amazing stories that people being critical I'm like how do you do it I'm a scientist I want to know about cells circuits mechanisms and protocols so then it was I was seeing you know the bumper stickers be here now beautiful quote from Ram Das or you hear your your life is what your thoughts make it

1:48:11which by the way came first from the Bible but then you find in every philosopher said that but then like how do you do that be present I mean there's nothing squishier to me than be present how great tell me how and and you can tell I get a little irritated by I don't I really don't like hippie wellness I have friends that listen to grateful dead and you know I like a few of their songs but so I'm not like beating up on on hippies I just I don't like these terms like calm down or you know or just take a deep breath no it turns out it's all wrong so the be present thing I thought I'm a neuroscientist what do I know for sure I know that we can be planning a lot of the brain's function is to predict things thank goodness we can remember things great unless we're focused on negative things from the past as you pointed out that are keeping us from moving forward in life or it's self-damaging or harming others that's not good also focusing on your trauma all the time is not solving it it's amplifying those circuits so you need to move past it and then I

1:49:11started exploring the neuroscience of perception and what brings the brain from a state of thinking and planning and remembering things of past so stuck in the past of the future to being right in the present and it turns out you have to just get into sensation and you need to get into perceptions and asking questions the brain loves questions questions help shift the brain from one state to another so if I could just look at the data I looked at the data on how to get present it turns out you have people pay attention to seemingly trivial things like how cold am I what is what does it feel like the contact of my legs to the chair I'm sitting on something I wasn't thinking about all of a sudden it's not about what you're focusing on it's now what you're not focusing on and once you're in the present then the brain can more easily shift to the positive things that you can do to have some agency over your current conditions we hear a lot about agency this is so good this is very helpful yeah so like when you're feeling like you don't have control you're like you can go online and watch something says if you're on access to all about agency right it's kind of like

1:50:16it's all about agency on Instagram not any more but it's about more entertainment and and victim stuff who's the victim I'm the victim there the victim who's the victim no he's the he's the aggressor is on cute hair tricks but like I like the bulldog stuff and there's other stuff too but I'm sure I'm kind of talking at the extremes but yeah how do you have agency well you have to get present because you can't have agency over the past you sure can't have agency over the future unless you take care of the right now how do you do that and it's interesting because kids learn this very fast if you teach them I've taught many kids the physiological side and when they're stressed to just focus on what's around them and they learn it so fast but as adults we have these these well-charted reflexes to gosh I'm thinking about that thing again I can't stop thinking about that thing and then people think that they're ruminating and indeed they're ruminating then they wonder if it's trauma and it might be I mean there are real traumas that need to be overcome I

1:51:17talk about that in the book but just the simple thing of saying you know how cold or warm is this thing I'm holding that shifts the brain in the direction you want to go that's not where you want to stop but it brings you back to the presence you can continue forward in the present this is and so there's a lot of somebody who lived in the Manhattan for 17 years you really don't want to stop on what does it smell like in here right right so that's really about brain state that will bring you right in the room exactly right so it's about brain states it's about understanding that the brain doesn't go from sleep to awake from stress to calm it's that you need to do things to bridge these states to get from one state to another and you have that power in your mind and body and so I try and provide tools that represent the the fastest and most seamless path to those that doesn't require any learning and I can you learn how to do them but there's no it's not like you you need to master the skill you have the skill you just haven't exercised it before yeah yeah you're not you probably weren't asking the right questions now because you've

1:52:18mentioned a couple times can you tell us about the physiological side the the physiological side so that's the double inhale long exhale so that's the and then the exhale through the mouth okay and our study on that a few years back we had people do that repeatedly showed that if you were to repeat that and compare to say meditation practice or to box breathing which is inhale hold exhale hold or to meditation practice what you would find is they all have some benefit but the physiological side allows you to calm down the fastest and it improves your sleep it improves your mood and it improves resting heart rate heart rate variability it just has so many positive effects and it's so simple and it's cost nothing and if you don't remember to do it every day you just do it every once in a while and I know it I know no no I have neurosurgeon friends who use it I have tier one operator friends who use it I know

1:53:19eight-year-old kids who use it moms you know like even my dog does it but they do it reflexively if you watch your dog before they go down to sleep yeah they do a double inhale yeah you write this in the book long exhale and it's to balance their carbon dioxide oxygen ratios dogs are so smart because they don't they don't worry about stuff not mine but most yeah it's it's wonderful to see that others have that in their pets um let's talk about nicotine and caffeine because especially nicotine is all the rage right now the little packs that people put in their mouths um what's the story of nicotine okay well 90% of the world uses caffeine every single day and they're not gonna quit and I love caffeine the data say it can offset dementia if you don't like caffeine and you say to take it before exercise or drink it whatever yeah we're true here bamaathe which is what I like or coffee I like as well people have different caffeine tolerances I will say if you don't like caffeine don't go drink it to try and offset dementia you'll be fine like you but if you do like caffeine you don't have to worry I don't recommend drinking caffeine too late in the day

1:54:23because it can mess up your sleep but I love a 2 p.m espresso I love it I have to say so and I drink it and I sleep fine nicotine is a special one because humans throughout history ever since they discovered nicotine have found a way to get it into their systems then they discover it causes cancer they find a new way they create vaping then they find out that vaping isn't good for you not as bad as smoking but it's still terrible causes all sorts of lung issues so then now oral nicotine is all the rage here's the deal I'll tell you the positive first nicotine there is some evidence some evidence that it may help offset Parkinson's and dementia before it forms okay why it increases acetacolene which is one of the major neuromodulators that's depleted in many forms of dementia and it increases dopamine and movement and Parkinson's and dopamine that whole story is about loss of

1:55:23dopamine or ignorance most treatments for Parkinson's are about increasing dopamine so the problem is that nicotine is extremely habit forming slasher dicting okay it's an amazing stimulant because it makes you alert but it also makes you feel calm it puts you in that perfect state for learning and for most daytime activities but it also raises blood pressure which in particular for men can cause cardiovascular issues include and sexual health issues because of blood flow inhibitor right so nicotine can cause problems if taken in excess but the big problem is that now people take one you know let's say a three to six or even eight milligram pouch of nicotine and they feel great and then they're doing two a day then three a day and then pretty soon you need an entire canister every few days just to be normal same thing with caffeine most people are drinking caffeine and using nicotine just to be at their normal level of alertness so if you really want to use nicotine

1:56:26as a cognitive enhancer as a healthy person you use it very occasionally three to six milligrams maybe two to three times a week maximum one pouch but most people don't do that they're quickly into multiple pouches per day so it's sort of when I say it's a cognitive enhancer that's with occasional use and the same goes for caffeine you need to be alert to get focused most people need caffeine just to be alert so you don't get any learning benefit or cognitive benefit from caffeine you're just getting yourself into that plane of alertness that allows you to function but I love caffeine so much I love your bamaatte I love coffee and you're not going to take it away from me and um I just love it and and so I like to acknowledge that some people really like their nicotine but if you're going to use nicotine make sure you check your blood pressure and ideally you're exercising too I will say a lot of the guys that I know it does seem to be mostly guys um I went out to I won't mention which but a big uh military school on the east coast and I didn't inform

1:57:28a poll of how many of the 4,000 students use nicotine and about two thirds of the hands in the room went up and then when I spoke to the sports teams it was like almost all of them are using nicotine but their athletes they're young they're running around do I suggest it not really but if you're doing that as opposed to smoking cigarettes or vaping great definitely be safer for you than alcohol and I'm not a big fan of cannabis some people can do it without issues but it does predispose to psychosis and some people it's a whole story into itself it gets very political I'm happy to talk about it but what I did a podcast showing that there are strong data showing that THC especially in young males can predispose them to permanent psychosis these very strong THC products not all but a lot of them and I got vehemently attacked by the left they were like listen for me as Shin what are you doing I'm like listen I gave the balanced picture I don't tell people what to do but know what you're doing heard from many parents and people like my kid is schizophrenic because of and this is real right then there were some movements on the right

1:58:35the administration was trying to actually make some of the laws around cannabis a little bit more liberal and then all of a sudden the left started attacking cannabis and so I started realizing like I don't get political but I realized okay most media I know you don't do this but most media that they actually are not reporting the issue from a place of heart and understanding of data they're just kind of going it's like my team your team stuff so the data are this yeah some people can use cannabis no problem it nukes your deeps wrap or your rapid eye movement sleep that's not good but some people can do it no problem the edible is not a problem for them other people it causes apathy psychotic issues one or the other or in some cases both and so you just need to be very careful and I will tell you as my I've only had the experience of being male and I will tell you young males should not use cannabis you want to develop your life you want to be uh be ambitious as ambitious as you can while being a kind person and taking care of yourself cannabis except for extremely talented creatives is a motivation success inhibitor I don't know the data

1:59:43for females as well because we don't have a lot of female specific data on it so that's why I just mentioned that but I will tell you when young guys are like how do you feel about THC I'm like I love it when my competitors take THC be it in anything I you better hope that all your competitors take THC because it's it's a complete killer of I think many of mine do yeah and then I will say someone will come along every once in a while and they'll say I know this athlete who uses cannabis and they're a super athlete or my grandfather smoked and and drank every day and lived to be a 102 so those stories I always say yeah well you know yesterday and this is a true story I sat down with somebody whose dad did everything right and got a glioma so you're always and and died so you're always gonna have these these margin cases at the extremes where someone does everything right and still gets sick and dies and someone does everything wrong and still lives a long healthy life but most people are not at those extremes and so if you're gonna use the excuse like I'm gonna

2:00:43do everything wrong and be okay forget it the the data say that's very unlikely or if you say I'm gonna do everything right and I'm certain that I'm gonna live to be 150 well that's not true either the that's not true either and so what you want to do is most things right most of the time and avoid the pitfalls of that could cause psychosis or drunk driving I mean we sort of know this it's logic but the health messaging has gotten very contaminated by the political sphere in a way that I think has hurt a lot of people I just want people to have the information yeah no I laugh because my Nana God lover my mom so I'm live to be 101 and she ate at least in the last 30 years of her life she ate nothing but processed foods she never saw exercise in any way shape or form she walked a little bit around her senior citizens complex that she lived in lived on her own until she was a hundred and a half amazing this is your grandmother and yeah my Nana she was stressed out all the things that were not supposed to do but that's of course the exception not the rule we can't go by that the

2:01:48I thought the exercise and the eating advice in the book was very sound and it was right along the lines of what you're saying nothing extreme you know a normal sort of natural foods diet less process the better and exercise yes weight training cardio vascular as well as walking you know a few times a week in addition to like cardio cardiovascular training all good but we only have a couple minutes left can you just hit so for the quick for the quick learners or the people who just want to get like a quick highlight what are the top three things you want them to take away when it comes to their wellness what they can learn from your experience bright mornings that involve light ideally from sunlight or artificial lights some movement some hydration I'm a big you know I'm a big proponent of prayer meditation things that orient you to what's really important for me that's prayer in the morning and before going to sleep at night

2:02:50these things have an outsized positive effect on your health and your mood and your ability to focus all day long the second thing would be do a long exhale or ideally two inhales through your nose a long exhale through your mouth anytime you feel stressed or even a couple times throughout the day you'll improve your heart rate variability your resting heart rate you'll find that you actually can handle stress very well you'll lower your baseline levels of stress and you'll feel more control over your mind and body in a way that carries over to everything that tool works anywhere and everywhere unless you're under water and then darken your sleeping environment cool it down and do some long exhale breathing before sleep and those three things and of course you still need to do some exercise try and walk a bunch and lift some heavy objects now and again heavy for you get your heart rate up doing some exercise don't eat too much process for this kind of thing the things we all know but if you do those three things you will find that everything gets better

2:03:53right away daytime energy ability to mitigate stress learning presence with emotional presence and physical presence with people you love your ability to just enjoy life a bit more to pivot your brain state and to reset in that magical phase of our 24 hour cycle sleep that no one seems to get away with outdoing for very long those things you'll look better you'll feel better you will be healthier you will live longer and it sounds like good old-fashioned advice because I'm saying sleep right exercise don't stress social connection but what no one I you know you know with humility aside and and and and humbly I'll say also no one ever told us how it's like we're told what not to do so I'm not going to bark at you to not drink or not do this or not I'm going to tell you do those things and also learn to enjoy them they're for you and there's so you can show up better for yourself and other people in life learn learn to enjoy them there you're God-given circuits and

2:04:54molecules like we all have them and put them to use and if you miss a couple days no big deal get get right back on it they take seconds to minutes they cost nothing they're available to you in some form every single day and the I mean there's over 1200 references in the book that support what I'm saying I'm not coming up with this stuff I'm not naming it after me these are not the Huberman protocols this is your body your physiology your brain your mind and you deserve to get the best from them and that's my my deep deep wish for people I've seen it I've experienced how they can help I've seen how it can help others I just want those for for the world I really really do you got to get the book now it's going to sell out it's called protocols by Andrew Huberman an operating manual for the human body don't wait it's going to hit the stores soon but you want to get it now because it'll sell out and then you won't have it it's a pleasure thank you so much for coming on I hope I get to talk to you again yeah thanks so much for hosting me for for give me that in my excitement various times I inadvertently spoke over you I'm a big fan

2:06:00and I really appreciate the opportunity to connect to your audience and really enjoy your questions indeed I learned a lot during this conversation so thank you oh the pleasure is ours all the best you and good luck with the book thank you very much again bye for now wow what a guy so interesting the book is big but it's an easy read and you can go you know chapter to chapter like he was saying just pick the one on whatever sleep nutrition etc whatever interest you and actually really genuinely will make a great gift as we go my god into the Christmas season I mean that's what's next here as we say goodbye to the 80-degree days thank you also much for listening don't forget to go out and buy protocols today