The National Maul - Honoring 9/11 & High-Stakes International Rugby

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1:00This episode is brought to you by Chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about Chat GPT work? It's the new way to use Chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, you have Chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. One of the questions I asked him was, what's so what's coming next year that if this is the big staging post, which they openly say it is towards hosting the World Cup, and it looks like it'll be a success, 71,000 there. If this is that staging post, what's the next one? Is it rugby championship? Is it six nations? Is it something else? What are you going to bring? And he was appropriately cagey and said, yeah, we're going to do six nations. Not quite that definite. He said, if the six nations asks us, we'll do it. He did a case study of what happens if you bring Italy and Ireland,

2:03which all British people will do, because they think that all Americans are Italian, or Irish. I don't know. This isn't a coincidence. He started saying about what we could put the game in Boston or New York, and there you go. Yeah, it's not the departed and good fellows, but... No. That's Tony Sprano, didn't know what rugby was. Welcome to US rugby Happy Hour. Unfiltered interviews with the biggest names in American rugby. The Chicago Rounds, Camp Off, Inferpixies, and Team USI, my history in Paris. USA Rugged is heading to Australia. Get ready. Pour yourself a drink. Pull up a chair. Let's go. Hello and welcome to US Rugged Be Happy Hour. Welcome back to listeners who have been listening to our show. Thank you so much and welcome to any new listeners as well. We like new listeners. Just like, you know, if you're a cell phone company, you always give good deals and new listeners, not your current customers. So we never mind. We like you all. We would never just give deals and new listeners.

3:05John Fist, Patrick, how are you, man? Pretty good, Billy. You would make a great, like, mall, key on cell phone, plan style guy. That was, I mean, most hope. Yeah, yeah, or that or watch repairman. I think I'm more like that guy in the middle of them all. Yeah, whatever. John Fist, Patrick, it's a busy week. Oh, he said, we had another episode this week, everybody. We talk about the USA Eagles. Ross, do we break it down? And like you said, it's an exciting weekend. The rivalry in Baltimore, USA men are playing. There's plenty of professional teams playing overseas, especially in France. What's exciting about this weekend for you? I mean, hopefully I have time to take it all in all the different matches, right? The greatest rugby rivalry right in New Zealand, South Africa. Should be entertaining there. See if they can get at level. And then obviously the men's Eagles back in action, Pacific nations cup. You know, that strong Japan squad. We'll see how that goes. There's a lot here, you know, 9-11. There's a lot swirling around here.

4:06That's true. And there has been a first for me this week, Fissy. My first appearance on a New Zealand sports radio show, Sport Nation. Which is for one of their afternoon shows. And they asked me about American rugby and the rivalry. And it was fun. Good time. He enjoyed talking to somebody with an American accent about rugby. I don't know if that was a compliment or... Well, I hope you represented American rugby well, as you certainly always tend to do. Bill. I made it up. All right, let's do this, Fissy. The listeners, please like, follow, and subscribe to this show. Leave us comments on the YouTube channel. Go ahead and give some five-star rating. It'll be amazing on podcasts and everything else. Please check us out on social media as well and this podcast again. I know your favorite podcast player. Let's bind together. Use it all, lose it all. It's time for the national mall with Martin Pan-Gelly. That was really...

5:06Man. Martin Pan-Gelly, good to see you again. Welcome back. How are you? We're good, thanks. Very, very busy week in politics with the Republican fan in Dallas. And other things. So it's nice to be concentrating some rugby for the weekend. Absolutely. You know, after listening to that, they opened. They reminded me I want to reach out to Lizard to see if he would actually sing the song on camera. I've never actually been in therapy, but that might push me. Everyone's got to start somewhere. So Marlon, let's get into it. The national mall this week is obviously a big anniversary of 9-11. Has his connections to rugby? I've heard that's what you're writing about this week. Yeah. It's a long connection to rugby, which most people know through the story of Mark Bingen, who was the Cal Berkeley San Francisco Fog, back rower, who was on Flight 93, and fought

6:12back. With Jeremy Glick, who was the number 8th University of Rochester, there were two rugby players on the Flight 93. Among the Flight 93 passengers who fought back and brought the plane down in Pennsylvania. So rugby's long had a link. I was wondering, I've long wondered about how to write, never written a standalone piece about either of those two heroes. I was wondering this time about that. I was rereading through and over there some books that I accumulated while I was writing Brotherhood on 9-11, including their stories. Then it hit me and I went back into my files and I found I have a run of Army rugby newsletters from 2001-02, the original emails that were sent out that someone had saved and sent me. It's not that exciting, but it is very poignant. There is a list from the Army rugby newsletter date to 27th September 2001, so a little over two weeks after 9-11, where they put together a list of the rugby players who were known

7:12to have died or been missing in New York. And of course, well, I'm flying 232. The missing angle is very poignant now. The number of names who have missing on them. I found another list of rugby players who died on 9-11 published by Alex Gough five years ago and all the names are there. Of course, all the ones who are missing are no longer listed as missing. There are more names. So publishing those two lists and a few thoughts just about what counts also as a 9-11 death because this week in my regular job I've been covering what Mayor Mamdanne has been doing in New York about releasing records about toxic air quality after 9-11. And what he was doing with John Stuart, who's campaigned on all the people who died from exposure at ground zero. So I wondered about that. And then it was a chance to look again at Link to the story of Rick Rescola. Does that name mean anything to you?

8:13No, I don't like so. It should do. And it will do if you read the piece that I've dug up the link to. He was Cornishborn, so from the same British County as my family name, Bengali, but Rescola is Cornish too. Cornishborn guy went into the play rugby as a kid and was very good and as a young man for Hale, RFC and Cullmore. Then went off into the British Army, fought in Malay era, I think, and then went to Vietnam and fought with the Americans. During the American Army. And was at the Battle of Iad Lang, which is the one that was made into the film of Mel Gibson, we were soldiers. So he did various very heroic things in Vietnam, came home. And by 9-11, was head of security for Morgan Stanley Dean, Whitter. So he was in the towers and he got his team out, went back in for more people and never came out. Wow. And there is a astonishing from 2002, New Yorker piece, the headlines, all the heroes, all the real heroes are dead, which I've long known about.

9:17And it's the very, the rugby link to him, he's quite tenuous, he played when he was a kid, he didn't play in America. But it just made me think of rugby players who are linked to major world events like that. So that's, well, and also flashing forward the brotherhood and realizing it, of course, that all the military rugby players who died in the 9-11 wars are themselves casualties in 9-11, really. So it's a piece considered. And as you do in your research, it was just names. I'm assuming you're looking at some back, or also clearly you find out where he's from. Many interesting stories stand out to you of these people, obviously not necessarily being heroes in that matter, but maybe some background of these players. I'm interested in the sociological background. I didn't go for space in the newsletter. I didn't go into any of the stories in the list. But I'm interested in the background. The original West Point Army rugby list is clearly roughly half and half traders and

10:17five fighters, first responders. So my editors' brain is always thinking this way. If you wanted to write something taking into the, you know, I probably should want to write it because I'm British and we're obsessed with it, taking into the prism of class, then there's something for you. There's five fighters from New Ireland and there's bankers from, I don't know, Greenwich and Connecticut or whatever. On that list are people who died in the towers and who played rugby and who played for various clubs. I think that's, I think Old Blue has on that list a five fighter and a banker maybe. I should check that back. I mean, maybe Nia or maybe one of the other clubs, but that's the, that was the thing that struck out. One of the reasons I actually thought about writing it was I say in the piece, I wanted for a while thinking with my editors head on. While I was writing the book, I thought that either when the book came out or after it, I could write either a long piece or a short book about Jeremy Glick from Flight 93.

11:20Because when I found out about Jeremy Glick, I'd never heard of it. I'd heard of Mark Bingham back at the time. I haven't heard of it. I didn't realize Glick was a rugby player. So I was going to, I just, I had this vision for a long piece or a short book called The Other Rugga Jeremy Glick and Flight 93. And I did some research after I finished the brotherhood and immediately found out that he's totally well known. No, I just, I haven't read it. And also rugby wasn't as big a part of his life as it was, but Mark Bingham. Yeah. It's, you know, this piece is a sort of explanation of what it's like when you look into things a little bit more deeply than you normally would. The things that you find and notice on the 25th anniversary, it's a good time, is any. Right. Well, Mark, so we got a few folks who are going to be turning their attention to Baltimore this weekend. And that's not for the start of the NFL season in the Baltimore Ravens. That's of course what we're talking about here is the final match in rugby's greatest

12:20rivalry. New Zealand all blacks for South Africa Spring box. Now understand you had a chat with World Rugby, CEO Alan Gilpin about the match for the Guardian and we'll get into USA rugby's progress as well. But any responses from from Alan, you know, about this match this weekend that set out for you? Yeah, it's interesting how the news media works. So I reached out to World Rugby and said I'd like to talk to Alan in an American frame because I was writing it for the American Sports Center of the Guardian in you. Tom Lutz, my great friend. So I want to talk to you about why you're hosting it here, what challenges are, what it means to the world cup, where that process is. And then I'd like to ask you a few things about the US rugby too. And they said, fine. And for once I had a, so I wanted this, I had a video call with Alan with no press officers sitting in. Yeah. Normally World Rugby quite rightly is careful.

13:21Is that coming? Right. So we talked and I asked him various things. And one of the questions I asked him was, what's so what's coming next here then? If this is the big staging post, which they openly say it is towards hosting the world cup and it looks like it'll be a success, 71,000 there. If this is that staging post, what's the next one? Is it rugby championship? Is it six nations? Is it something else? What are you going to bring? And he was appropriately cagey and said, yeah, we're going to do it. We're going to bring big games next year, but we're not sure yet what we're going to do. We may have some news to break soon. So I said, as journalists do, I'm not, I'm not particular. I'm not really a news press conference killer. I said, OK, well, if you want to share that with the Guardian, we would happily share it and leave some of this smiling. We've done it before. You do it all the time. Journalism, if you've gotten in, if you know someone, and I don't know, but I have met him a bunch of times, you can do it. So I thought, if he's going to literally thought, if he's going to announce the Six Nations

14:25coming next year, then maybe I'll get it. I'm the guy who'd be happy about that. I think I've filed 1,300 words to the Guardian as precisely as ordered on the American Angled Peace. And then I got a forwarded email from the Sports Editor in London saying, is Martin covering this? And Alan, I assume maybe yesterday, after me, but by the look of the timestamp, maybe this morning in the UK, told the times in the telegraph, yeah, we're going to do Six Nations. Not quite. Not that definite. He said, if the Six Nations asks us, we'll do it. And he did a case study of what happens if you bring Italy and Ireland, which all British people will do, because they think that all Americans are Italian or Irish. I don't know. This isn't a coincidence. He started saying about what we could put the game in Boston or New York, and there you go. It's not that departed in good fellows, but Tony Sprano didn't know what rugby was.

15:26But okay. Fine. So I had to rewrite. I had to write that into my piece so the Guardian could cover it. And I felt partly like, Cursey's lost. The more tall phrase of the day-to-day TV companies here is, I lost the news. But I also didn't, because that's not what I was commissioned to do. True. You know, he made, I don't know either. Alan may have been like, traveling to himself and saying, I might have some news to break, because he was about to go and break it. Or it doesn't matter. It's just one of those press things. So I don't know if the Guardians are in now, after they, because they haven't asked me to do it. But tomorrow morning, there will be a Guardian piece, a reasonable length, talking about all that stuff with this thing. Yeah, I'm done. Yes. So, just a couple of questions off that real quick. I got to imagine Six Nations officials, rugby officials are entertaining the idea. I'm assuming around, let's say, hosting it here in the US.

16:26Probably because they are seeing the potential dollar signs, right? Because I imagine a number of Six Nations fans cross the pound to be a little upset. They wouldn't be able to see one of their home nations or whatever play in around. So let me ask you this, because it's, I guess, in your piece, you'd mention that both in New Zealand and South Africa, or earned significant revenue, profit, off of playing this match here in the US as opposed to South Africa. Two questions there. Why is that? And is that probably what's drawing in Six Nations to consider having around here in the US? Yeah, why is it attractive to advertisers? It's attractive to content producers, you know, I have to say, which is a different thing, it's attractive to American TV, like CBS sports, Paramount Plus, World Rugby, has the deal with them. So it makes sense. And if you sell, if you sell the place out, which you do, and you sell hospitality packages, which you do, then you can make sure that you're not going to be in the US. And you can make a lot of money out of that's what the old bikes that they've been

17:27going to do. I think that the wrinkle, watch me be proved wrong with anything I say, but I think the wrinkle is that in the Six Nations it's so embedded. And I mentioned that in the piece last week that I said, you know, Italy diluted the primordial super bit. Italy, an Italy home game could come. And you'd have the least impact on angry traditional fans because there are a few results. So then the flip of that is, if you bring Italy Ireland, which is no doubt why Ireland has been mentioned it or some doubt, but you bring Italy Ireland, it's less of a sales of Americans because Italy aren't as good. I mean, they are much, much better than they ever have been at the moment. They're a good team with good players. I'm not bit Italy for a second, but it's harder to sell Italy rugby. If you brought some epic England, France game to Met Life, I mean, I'd love that. I mean, I'd go into it like a shop. And I think a lot of Englishmen and Frenchmen would be a bit pissed in the American sense.

18:32I was just going to use the chance to get pissed in the British sense. Yeah. So I think you'll see in Italy again. And it sounds like Italy Ireland from that thinking. I mean, at the Ireland's been to Chicago before, I remember it didn't really work. Right. You can't really sell Italy game. I don't think. I mean, you know, they've got some great, great players, but Ignacio Brex is not going to put guns on seats in Middle America. Good as the years now. So I mean, yeah, I think it's going to happen. It's inevitable. And I think it should happen. I'm not a traditionalist. I think it's totally worth doing both to sell the world up. I'll red-band make money for countries in Europe. It's going to, it will happen. So Martin, when looking at this Saturday's specific match, you talked to Alan about logistics and putting on a match like this. To me, it's just the whole thing is just way above my pay grade. So I can't even imagine how to put it on.

19:33But what stood out in that conversation? Was it, I'm sorry, how many people doesn't take to do expiry and see? I think it's going to be a bit of a saddo. We talked about grass for the odds for a bit. And obviously, MNT back stadium is always grass that helps. I mean, Baltimore, I think, is going to be a world cup host by the work of it. I noticed by the side, in forcing a pun and a joke that noted star of the wire detected multi-dominant west is a big rugby nut. So I would totally get him into the promo if I could. Noted inspiration for the mayor in the wire, Martin O'Malley is a late convert rugby fan, so I'd get him involved to, especially by the show up. Anyway, Alan was, it's not really a detail on the piece, but he was interesting about the challenges of drop-in pitches and how much they can mention to the world cup. I literally can't imagine a drop-in pitch working because you'd have scrum sliding each

20:33this way and that on pallets of grass. But he says it's been proven viable. I mean, the pitches, the fields for the soccer world cup were immaculate. And some of the football fields of the grass, the fields are not immaculate, like FedEx five years ago when it was a sort of Pible football field. So yeah, it's a huge logistical lift. I love the stories that have been out of the South African press and Kiwi obviously did it first of the teams played in Soweto, played that incredible game in front of 18, 85,000 and then four four of us. And then went to the airport together and got on the same plane and came to me. Rugby and rival, we all love each other, we all have a pint, blah, blah, blah. But the spring box and your blacks after a game like that for the spring box to go to went up. I'm not sure they'd have been talking to me that much. I'm not saying it's very business. Yeah. Who was having to serve e-bonnets a beth is a morning snack.

21:37It's just a massive, massive, massive lift and there's a whole industry dedicated to putting it on again as Alan pointed out. First weekend of the NFL season playing over a game of rugby and Baltimore sounds nuts. But it's not just that the Ravens are in Indianapolis on the first weekend, but the NFL is in Melbourne. Tomorrow at the MCD. It's doing it too. So the whole thing's crazy and you keep Alan said you keep running up against things. You think how on earth are we going to fix that and then there are people who know how to fix it? Speaking of how on earth is the best segment but I'm all wrong with it. Let's talk USA rugby for progress here. You also shared with Alan a little bit about the progress in American rugby, obviously everyone looking ahead to 31 when the men host here in the US. Please tell us Alan thinks things are progressing well here in the US to get rugby in a good spot where everyone feels good about hosting the rugby world cup here at 31.

22:41So we went off record when we got to MLR. So I can't say what we talked about. I mean I can say as you said, Alan record before he went off record, he's clearly concerned that MLR is down at five teams at the moment and that's his project and work. I mean it did work in various ways. Lots of players who got good game time and so on but it didn't work as in it's not there anymore. So it's concerned about that. We all concerned about that. As far as the national team go, when I mentioned it, he immediately broadened out the question and pointed out how well all of the national teams are doing at the moment. Everything is relative but the men's sevens, the women's sevens, the men's 15s and the women's 15s have all had strong results of late means. I'm so very happy with that because he was talking about working on high performance stuff with USA rugby with Scott Lawrence's team.

23:43And we talked a bit about farming young players out that kind of thing. It's happy with that too. He's happy and he would be happy and he would tell me he's happy with how the nation's cup has gotten so far. That's his baby, which will road abuse baby. We, I don't think I put this in the piece but we agree that Japan will be an interesting test of how he goes, I wouldn't expect him to win but if they lose well against what probably won't be the first choice Japan team, then that's a good sign. Japan's two places ahead in the world rankings but that's a world in itself. It works. Yeah, it was a positive discussion with focus on the drawbacks of MLR. I think I just saw, just before I came on, I saw John Mitchell have spoken to the BBC after the Six Nations News today. He said, I know America. I was there as he was. I remember having a long chat with him once at an old blue game against life.

24:46He was sort of like rugby union is very tough for America. Don't know about it. But selling big games like all Black Springboks can work, which would translate forward to a sort of drop-in World Cup. Which I think is probably realistic in some ways. I mean, it's not going to be that after the two World Cup's have been here, suddenly rugby is fully established. As a mainstream professional sport, it just isn't going to be. But you can definitely put two successful World Cup side, I think, with people coming in and American fans. That's why I've written in the Guardian piece. It's going to be fascinating to see on Friday. So Saturday, how many, what the split is in the, roughly speaking, the split in the fans in the stands. How many American, how many were in college high school club stuff, which I've always noticed American fans do, they always represent. Which is fantastic. Because when you're a journalist and you're trying to do Voxpots, you know who they are. You just go see if they are. I'd like to talk to that women's team from San Antonio.

25:50That's it. I don't want to talk to that bunch of, you know, pissed up bloke and jerseys because I know that. I mean, so yeah, that's what I'm going to be looking at. Like what kind of what's the mix? I mean, I know that there's bound to be a lot of expats. There's a couple of expats about WhatsApp groups. I mean, I don't really participate in that much. That's mostly Kiwis, Aussies and Sapphas and they're aflame a bit there or there. Yeah. There's a big event. I think the event is tonight, the big dinner in New York, the Richard Sexton's putting on with various old old blacks and springbox. The whole dinner will pile onto the train. Sad down down down. That's that's the sort of Wall Street New York real estate crowd of mostly expats, but some Americans. So, you know, it's in Baltimore, which is an unusual place to put it, but it's within reach for everybody. I think it's going to be an interesting sort of sociological picture to look at.

26:51Martin, are you credentialed or are you going to be in the seats with a pint in your hand? I'm credentialed. I'm doing, I think I'm doing a matriple for the Australian office. They haven't confirmed it yet. It's a weird dynamic going on about how much rugby they want to cover in the Guardian Worldwide. But I think I'm filing to Sydney on the final whistle. But there's a bunch of stuff. There's a World Rugby event tomorrow, a media event and a reception. I'll think I'm going to make it to the old blacks captains run just because I can. I wanted to talk to Arlie Savaire, but he's not here. And then tomorrow lunchtime there's a US rugby foundation event as well, which I've been invited to and someone from Substack wants to have a coffee. So that's fun. Oh, that's nice. Well, Martin, you know what? Actually, before I let you go, something popped up, my Facebook feed or something.

27:54And it was you and the trailer of Brothers of Three was a Brothers on three. It was nice to see you in that nice lit room. Almost like you should have cigar in your hand or something. Brilliant. That was weird. That was a, it was fun. And Sean Mullin is a great man as his Brian was right. I went up to New York to do that in December 2023 for a day. A day is shooting, but it was like an hour. And I had never been interviewed on camera like that before. So Sean kept me, when they do that, they have, you know, this, the camera there and the director over there. And it's supposed to look at the director. Yeah. And I couldn't stop looking at the cameras. The camera. So in the office. And also, you realize documentary is based on fact, but it's also directed. So I would say something that Sean liked and he'd ask me to say it again, but a bit like this or a bit like that. Right. Absolutely. Hopefully. I said it. Well, it comes across well in one and a half second clips.

28:57Yeah. I think I appear three times in the first 15 minutes kind of doing the setup. And then quite rightly, I received into the background and the story takes over. So there's a screening, there's a brothers on three screening in Baltimore and I to celebrate the release on, on demand and rent and buy. Which I don't think I can go to because I'm at the World Road, we think. I have seen that for six times now. So well, we're hoping to get Sean on the show at some point as well and talk to him about that movie and there's other documentaries. But you know, just before we go briefly, a list of must watch rugby films came out from a New Zealand journalist. And I think we've talked a little about movies in the past. They're clearly the top ones. I mean, Victor says Hollywood and all that stuff. But is there another one other than brothers on three as well? They like that. That's a little more obscure, but I think it's a good rugby film in mine. It fits in what you dance this to. And mine is a movie called Up War.

29:57With Julian Denison is the star, mini driver. It's about racism and identity of him. It takes place during apartheid in New Zealand. Fantastic film. We should check it out sometime. So do you have a film like that for you? I have a self-spot, but I wouldn't say it's a great film for forever strong. I wonder about the one about Highlands in Newta. Mainly because it's got Gary Cole playing the coach. Absolutely devotee of Gary Cole because he used to be on Midnight Caller at T-Time on Saturdays when I was a kid. Oh wow. So Gary Cole's a legend of 11. Plus, I think I tried to work out ones that maybe there's someone playing Alex Maggleby in that, an extra, because I think that's when he was at the school. Never actually confirmed that. Um, but the, I would say the best rugby film I know top of my head is a rugby league film. It's this sporting life. It's the 1961 about Frank Macon, the rugby league pro and how it has sort of downfall

31:04in various ways. And it's early 60s. So the rugby action is a bit mannerist. It's a bit staged. But Richard Harris played you throw a brief a monster, rugby union. So he knew what he was doing and he looked like a player, which is unusual. So some of the sort of rugby league action expressionist as well as looking for. It's really, really good. It's based on a book, it's based on a book by David Story, who is a writer who mixed. Literature, art, painting and playing rugby. It's always been a, it's always been a, a favorite of mine. I'd recommend it to him. Fitsy, what do you got? This isn't um, the film at all, but it's probably the most mainstream I would say. It's a little silly. Um, but the DB show, of course, friends when David Trimberg's character Ross

32:06tries to play rugby because I think the woman he's dating is British and his little warm-up and then when he jumps through the middle of the scram, it's just, it's just calm. It's just, that's the, yeah, that's the cool of come on Ross, we're having a scram. Yes. Martin, thanks for joining us. The listeners please tune in to the National Mall Substack, this is thenationalmall.substack.com, MAUL Mall. And you can find Martin Pangeli on social media and through the Guardian as well. Martin, thanks again for joining us. Thank you as always.