The Ortiz Family Murders

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Hello everyone and welcome, episode 484 of the True Crime All the Time podcast.

I'm Mike Ferguson and with me is always my partner in True Crime Mike Gibson.

Give me how are you?

I'm doing good man about you.

I'm doing excellent.

You are excellent.

It was like 75 degrees here today.

It was nice, sunny.

I pulled up.

You had your shirt off working outside.

That is not going to happen.

Nobody's going to appreciate that in the neighborhood.

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I feel like somebody just put that in because I would have to say that.

I think that's exactly what they put that in there.

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Delilah Burke.

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Yeah.

Then if we go back into the vault.

This week we selected Kristen Lewis.

Hey, thanks Kristen.

Yeah, we appreciate all the support we get.

So we have a ton out right now.

We just dropped a new Patreon episode Saturday night on Derek Medina, who the media called

the Facebook killer.

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What did I?

First thing my mind came funky called Medina.

Yeah.

Because that's how your mind works.

But on unsolved, we have an episode out right now that's on Georgia, Moses.

She was last seen in 1997, walking with a friend to a gas station where she left with

an unidentified man.

And then on Thursday, our tea cat episode is on Linda Slate, who was murdered inside

her apartment while her sons slept in another room.

And that's a fascinating cake.

It really is.

It's disturbing.

Yeah.

It is.

Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time?

I am ready.

We're talking about the Ortiz family murders, Dixie and Lloyd Ortiz and their son, Steven,

were murdered inside their home during the early morning hours of Father's Day, 2011,

over a year into the investigation.

Authorities received a tip from an inmate that would help solve the cake.

I mean, I know there's always those tips that come from inmates.

Mm-hmm.

But as you know, I mean, how good are those tips?

Yeah.

I mean, obviously this one must be good because it helps solve the case, but we've talked

about a lot of inmates who, you know, they're wanting something, right, whether it's early

release, time off their sentence, ramen noodles, you know, whatever it is.

And they're willing to roll the dice on information that, you know, may not have any validity

whatsoever.

Some tip for tat, okay, whatever that really means.

I really don't know what that really means.

Yeah.

How that came about.

I have a feeling you do know what that means.

Dixie and Lloyd Ortiz were a married couple who lived in El Rancho, New Mexico.

You're been in New Mexico?

I have.

I've been through New Mexico.

Albuquerque is one of my favorite cities.

Beautiful town.

It is gorgeous.

To stand in Albuquerque and look up and see snow on the mountains, that is so cool.

And you're like in shorts and stuff.

Yeah.

That's amazing to me.

You're in shorts.

Pretty much 95% of the time anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's climate controlled here in the basement.

That's true.

So they owned a business called Ortiz Tile Contractors for many years.

Although Lloyd often suffered from back in knee pain, he continued working to support

his family.

Well, that's a tough business to be in if you have back in knee pain.

Yeah.

Tile work, carpet work.

You ever lay carpet and use those kickers and have to hit them with your knees?

I did that one time.

I was laid up for like a week.

I said, you probably felt that for a while.

And I was young.

I think I was like in my early 20s and it was brutal.

They make it look so easy.

They do.

Yeah.

Dixie managed the finances for the company and also worked with elderly and disabled patients

in a local nursing home.

So you know, the one thing that you'd have to say is that they were driven, right?

You know, Lloyd owned his own business.

Dixie managed the business and then also, you know, worked at a nursing home.

Dixie and Lloyd had two adult daughters, Angela Spanks and Sherry Ortiz Rios, and they

had an adopted son, Stephen, who was only 21 years old when he was killed.

That's rough.

Dixie and Lloyd cared for eight foster children before they adopted Stephen, who suffered

from shaken baby syndrome in his early years before he was adopted.

And you and I on a recent episode, we're talking about foster parents.

We do.

I think it was on the Erica Green episode.

You really, you know, I have to give it up to good foster parents that there have been

some bad ones, right?

There are some people who do it just for the money and don't care for the, the children

the way they, they should.

But I think the majority of people go, go into it out of the goodness of their heart,

right?

They want to help kids out.

That's not going to be an easy thing to take on, but it's needed.

Yeah, it is needed.

So it's amazing that there are people out there willing to step up and do that.

Stephen was loved by his older sisters.

When he first came to live with the family, they were told that he had a 95% chance of

dying in his sleep because of this.

Sherry would bring him into her room at night to watch over him.

And that would be tough.

Be scary.

It would be.

You know, I remember when my kids were born, I was nervous and I would, you know, go sneak

in there at night time a few times, just like check on them, you know, put my hand over

their mouth or put, you know, make sure I, okay, that sounds nefarious, like hover over

not.

I got you doing like a breathing check or something, you know, if you couldn't tell, I was like,

why is everything okay?

Because you didn't want to wake them up because of that, Matt, you know, you know, yeah,

they would cry.

But I don't think you're supposed to hold your hands over baby's mouths either.

Well, you know, I had to do what I had to do.

Stephen was partially paralyzed, but he still enjoyed playing the drums, writing around

his ATV or working on cars.

Stephen was in his school's special education program.

Any graduated high school in 2008, Dixie and Lloyd were active in their community.

Although Dixie worked 12 to 14 hours a day, she still found time to volunteer.

The couple in their business had a positive reputation in El Rancho.

So I mean, I think that even says more about Dixie.

It does.

You're working essentially two jobs in some capacity.

And then you're going to, in your quote unquote, off time, volunteer, while you're fostering

children, you've adopted at a certain point, you know, a child with special needs, says

a lot about them.

I feel like I got some similar things, you know, because I have the day job.

I do the podcast and then I volunteer at the senior place, you know, are you calling

that volunteering?

Well, I don't really get paid a lot.

Just ones, you know, so I just throw volunteering into that mix.

That's about it.

You do bring a lot of joy, though, from what I've heard.

Well, there's two that one or two people out there.

Yeah, they're one of them, at least, are happy.

Unfortunately, the EMTs are called sometimes have to be called.

Yeah.

I mean, the crowd used to be bigger.

Yeah.

Sherry Ortiz Rios, who lived in a house on her parents' property with her husband and

kids, was the one who found her parents' bodies on the evening of June 19, 2011.

Sherry and her husband, Jesse Rios, spent today cleaning a doctor's office, wetting the

stucco of a building Jesse worked on the previous week.

They got home around 3.30 pm and Sherry got started on a father's day dinner.

She planned to bring over to her parents' house.

Around 7.15 pm, Sherry sent her teenage son over to tell Lloyd that dinner was almost

ready.

Her son returned a few minutes later and said the doors were locked.

Sherry went over to check herself.

She saw that the newspaper was still at the front door, which was bolted from the inside.

She used a spare key to get into the house.

Her parents' dogs came running up to her.

There's a situation like this in many of the cases that we talk about where when someone

is found by the family, there is a scenario where for whatever reason, they make the decision.

They have to go over and check on this person.

Most of the time, it's because they didn't show up to work or they got a call from somebody

that said they haven't seen them.

This is a little different.

They live right next to each other, basically on the same property.

I think they're supposed to come over for dinner.

But when Sherry's son goes over, there's no answer.

My thought is that this wouldn't be five alarm time.

You're using your key because you think, I don't know, they're asleep, they're watching

TV, they can't hear it.

I don't know what you're thinking, but I can't imagine that the mind immediately goes

to something horrible.

Yeah, I can't either.

I think you're just thinking maybe they forgot about the plans and maybe they just can't

hear.

Maybe they went somewhere, they forgot about it and they went somewhere and that's true

too.

But she gets in, right?

And like I said, her parents' dogs came running up to her, which I'm sure they knew

her well, so there's not going to be too much of a fuss there.

But Sherry found her mother and her bedroom clutching a pillow.

Sherry recalled to the Santa Fe, New Mexican, as I started getting closer, I saw dried

blood on her face.

She saw another body that she thought was her father lying face down on the kitchen floor

and that's when she ran out of the house.

But it was actually Steven's body in the kitchen.

Lloyd was in the backyard with several injuries to his upper head and torso.

She had trauma to her right temple and Steven had injuries on his head and shoulders.

So I mean, this is undoubtedly a very gruesome scene.

I mean, it would be a very hard stomach to see your brother, your mom, your dad dead in

this condition.

Yeah, I mean, it would be tough to see somebody.

You didn't even know in this type of condition, but obviously it makes it much worse that

it's your immediate family.

Absolutely.

Investigators initially thought the family members were shot, but they didn't identify this

as the official cause of death because the autopsy's hadn't been done on June 21st.

Police announced that the initial reports about the family being shot were incorrect.

The autopsy determined the family died from blunt force trauma and stab wounds.

The deaths were reclassified from suspicious to a triple homicide.

And I wonder if the suspicious comes from, you know, was there an initial thought that maybe

it was a murder suicide?

Maybe.

Now, to be that, there would have to be a gun by them, right?

Because if not, I feel like you got to rule that out pretty quickly.

I would think so.

On June 23rd, state police sergeant Tim Johnson said he couldn't confirm any details and

noted that a suspect had not been identified.

A source familiar with the investigation told the Santa Fe, New Mexican that the family

was bludgeoned to death with a pickaxe.

Stephen was hit 17 times, Lloyd seven times, and Dixie twice makes you wonder why so many

times on Stephen was because he was a bigger threat or was there more anger towards Stephen?

Yeah.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

You know, to me, the number does jump out at you.

You know, Dixie only twice, Lloyd seven, Stephen 17.

And here's a, you know, a young male, he's 21 years old.

But like we said, he's partially paralyzed.

So is he that big of a threat?

I don't know.

Yeah.

Or is somebody really upset with him and he's kind of the main focus, according to the

source, when police arrived at the home, there was nothing apparent to debunk the shooting

theory because the puncture wounds from the pickaxe appeared to be bullet entry wounds.

I get it.

A pickaxe can resemble a bullet hole.

It would create a pretty serious nasty wound.

But I still go back to, you know, how is it not a homicide if there's no gun laying

next to any of the victims?

What else could it be?

I mean, can't be an accident, and it's a little tough to say murder suicide when there's

no gun found.

Yeah.

I mean, someone would have to, as they're falling down, throw the gun very far to a place

where nobody could find it, right?

After the autopsy changed the cause of death ruling, police conducted another search around

the home and found a pickaxe in a field near the house.

After the murders, the Santa Fe, New Mexican reported that 17 marijuana plants were found

inside the family home.

Two close friends said the marijuana was for medicinal use by Stephen, who had a prescription.

Now, I don't know if 17 marijuana plants is a lot or not.

I've never, you know, grown my own marijuana.

So I don't know.

It seems like a lot to me, but what's behind that door over there?

Well, we don't talk about that.

Okay.

Mean where the black light is emanating from underneath.

We don't talk about that.

Okay.

I just, I mean, I saw all those water pipes going in there, too.

So I wasn't sure.

I would think 17's probably more than the average person would need.

I thought there were some states that had a rule about how many plants you could have legally.

And I thought in some states, it's as little as like four.

Yeah.

And I could be wrong about that, but I think in our state, it's, I mean, it's no more

than six.

I think there's a police sources confirmed the marijuana plants were among many leads, pursued

as possible motives for the murders.

And I would think they'd have to be, right?

Anytime that there are drugs involved and technically marijuana is a drug, right?

You have to factor that into the equation as a possible motive.

One friend told the Santa Fe, New Mexican family and close friends have known about the

plants.

And who knows who else may have known about them, but it was not for recreational use.

And they definitely weren't selling the stories didn't say that they were drug dealers,

but that's what people think now.

If police knew that wasn't the case and that the plants were for medicinal use, but never

tried to clear that up before the media got hold of it, that only adds to our anger here

in El Rancho right now.

And I could understand that, right?

We talked about these people, they seem to be, stand up individual, right?

So if you're a close friend of them and it seems like they're being painted as drug

dealers, that would upset you.

Absolutely.

You know, if there are pillars of the community, now you're throwing some shade on them

for what?

Because they grew marijuana plants in their home most likely for their son.

Months passed with no arrests and no information released to the public.

A year after the murders, state police chief Robert Schilling held a news conference and

said investigators had conducted over 120 interviews, collected over 50 pieces of evidence,

executed 10 search warns, and run 30 impact operations in El Rancho, but they hadn't

arrested anyone.

And we're calling on citizens to come forward with information.

So I think you look at the numbers and you'd have to say, well, I mean, they're working

on it for sure.

Yeah, it's just not sitting idle.

But you'd also have to say they really don't have anything or nothing has come from all

of that work.

Sherry Ortiz Rios did a series of interviews with the Santa Fe, New Mexican expressing her

frustration with how the investigation was handled.

She also revealed that she and her husband Jesse Rios had not been officially eliminated

as suspects.

And does that surprise you?

No, it doesn't.

I mean, that access to the house, they were very close, obviously, to the family.

And maybe there was, you could say there could have been a reason that they wanted this

to happen.

Well, I'm sure they're most likely would have been a financial benefit to them, being

the, you know, the daughter and son-in-law, Sherry recalled that approximately 14 hours

after the bodies were found.

Here police had searched the house, a representative of the office of the medical investigator gave

Sherry a card with the names of three crime scene cleanup companies on it.

She called one of the companies because she didn't want her kids or her sister to be exposed

to the crime scene.

The crew arrived the Monday after the murders and returned the following morning.

They were present when state police returned to look for the murder weapon after the autopsy

results came in.

By this point, several items were already in a biohazard bag.

Sherry's husband, Jesse, said he believed the house should have been sealed for three

days until the weapon was found.

Yeah, I kind of understand what he's trying to say.

It's like, maybe you shouldn't have gave us that direction to call the cleanup team in

so soon.

And the house should have been sealed up until you had everything you needed to have out

of that home and make sure you did your two, three, four additional checks for whatever

you thought might be in the house, around the house before we went in and cleaned it all

up.

Well, obviously they released the house to them.

Yeah.

So the police must have thought that they had done everything they needed to do.

Now whether they did, that's another question.

State police had still not publicized theories about the motive.

Sherry revealed that Lloyd's wallet, which contained some cash, was still on the kitchen

counter, two safes, one that contained $4,000 and another that contained $80,000.

We're undisturbed.

Now, you know, you can make of that what you will.

I don't know that every person is going to want to try to grapple with the safe.

Right.

All kind of safes these were.

Maybe they were easy to get into.

Maybe they weren't, but depending on what type they were, I don't know how to crack a

safe.

I know you as a Jason born type person probably can do it.

Actually, I think you're more sure at least they're own than Jason born, but you know,

she was a safe cracker in that one movie Italian job, yeah, I can open up a lot of safes.

And that's also if the person even knew how much money was in there.

Exactly.

They have to know that.

Yeah.

80 grand's a lot of money.

It is.

Now, is it worth taking a chance of still being in the house and being discovered for

$4,000?

No, maybe not to somebody.

But what does it mean when there's a wallet laying in open site, plain site?

Is to me, what are you there for?

Yeah.

Are you there to rob?

Or are you there to just kill these people?

And that's a big question, right?

Motive is a huge question.

And it seems like it wasn't a robbery because they didn't take the wallet and they, you

know, sounds like they didn't touch the safes.

So like you said, you don't know how big the safes are, were they one of those safes

that are 1,000 pounds or 2,000 pounds, or are they one of those four ones that might

be, you know, 200 pounds?

Or a little one that you can carry around like a little fire rated safe.

And then my other thought is, if you knew how much money was there, you don't have to

break in.

You could have forced one of the occupants of the home to open the safe up before they

were ultimately killed, that didn't happen either.

So I think you have to take all of that into consideration.

And then obviously not checking the wallet for money.

It seems like robbery was not the motive for these killings whatsoever.

I mean, any house I walk in, I see a wallet on the table, I check for money.

Yeah.

And you're not even there to commit a crime, you just see a wallet.

I'm just nosy.

By the way, your wallet doesn't have any cash in it right now.

I know that's not true, because the whole family has a code gibby on the nights that

you come over.

We take all of our valuables and we lock them in the same, because we know you're going

to be here.

According to the Santa Fe, New Mexican, a police report documented an interview with

a non-named female who said someone mentioned that Stephen was killed over $5,000 of metham

fetamines, which were unpaidful.

However, this same report noted that the source changed her story.

Other reports claim that the Ortiz family sold drugs out of their house.

Sherry denied that her brother was involved with illegal drugs.

So here's this drug talk, right, that one family member was so upset about, you know, there

does seem to have been quite a bit of it.

I'm sure it was, you know, in some of the papers.

One of the thoughts that I had was, you know, if they're selling drugs and making quite

a bit of money from it, then why is Dixie working 12, 14 hours a day at multiple jobs?

Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

No.

I mean, could it be a cover?

I guess.

I don't know.

But, I mean, we said it, right, Lloyd owned his own business.

Dixie was working, she was volunteering, and they're taking care of Stephen, who's

partially paralyzed.

It doesn't seem like the type of family that would be selling drugs, but that doesn't really

mean anything.

No, I mean, look at Walter.

I mean, he was working at the high school teaching chemistry.

Yeah, and then working at the car wash and, you know, also dab a little bit in that RV

out in the desert.

It's a very apt comparison.

Police reports also referred to a 16 year old boy who lived with the family for a period

of time.

Before he was kicked out after being accused of stealing marijuana, and in the interview,

the teenager who was allegedly affiliated with a gang said he lost contact with Stephen

and his family after he was blamed for things he didn't do.

So you got a possible gang related component here.

Yeah.

A month before the murders, the boy was in the area and heard Stephen playing loud music.

He jumped the fence and entered the backyard.

He hid behind a bush when he heard Lloyd and someone else come outside, then jumped

up and roared.

Boyd seemed angry and asked what he was doing in his backyard.

I get to add to be like, what the hell is wrong with you?

Yeah.

What do you want?

What are you doing back here?

And why are you roaring at me and jumping out and trying to scare me?

Yeah.

And her interview, Sherry explained that she was trying to keep her parents house, but

she needed proceeds from the life insurance policy to do so, which she couldn't get because

the underwriter required a written statement from police, stipulating that the beneficiaries

were not suspects.

I mean, that's typical for insurance policy, right?

They don't want to pay somebody out who is acquiring the money through murder.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, let's face it, they don't really want to pay the money out for anything.

Period.

If they can find any reason they're going to, according to Sherry, they've told us that

we're no longer suspects.

They've released us as suspects, but they won't send that documentation to the life insurance

company.

And I think it's a sticky situation here, right?

The police obviously have to look at the family because there are kind of inherent motives

for family members to kill each other when it comes to life insurance.

If you're a beneficiary, but at the same time, if you didn't have anything to do with

it, you know, like if you're Sherry and her husband and Sherry sister, too, it's got

to be really tough for you because number one, you got this kind of cloud hanging over

you.

And then number two, you don't want your parents house to go into foreclosure, but you

can't do anything about it unless you have the life insurance proceeds.

Yeah, but you can't get those because, like you said, the police department's not going

to write that letter yet, unless they absolutely have zeroed out that it's you, they're not

going to write that letter.

Sherry recalled that the last time she saw her parents and brother was the Friday before

Father's Day.

She and her husband went to a casino on Saturday night and returned to early Sunday.

Her son was on a camping trip that night, and her daughter was at a sleepboat.

Sherry also said that when officers arrived at the house, an agent approached her.

And according to her, asked me what I did with the gun used to kill my mom, my dad and

my brother.

And apparently her husband was asked the same question.

I don't have a offensive.

Well, and, you know, we said it, right, originally they were under the impression that

all three members of the family were killed from gunshot.

So yeah, I mean, in the wake of finding out what happened to be asked that question is,

I'm sure gut punch.

If you didn't have anything to do with it, Sherry sister, Angela Spinks attended a public

session with a psychic who was visiting Albuquerque and asked who killed her family in front of

a crowd of people.

The psychic accused Jesse Rios Sherry and Jesse also claimed that they asked to come to

the recent state police news conference, but they were told not to state police chief

Robert Schilling denied this.

And we've talked about psychics for years, right?

I know some people really believe in them.

I never really have.

I still like, you know, like the conjuring movies and stuff like that.

I just don't really believe in much of that.

Okay.

But I love the movies.

Yeah, you do.

That character in the conjuring, one that has the psychic abilities, but the wife.

Oh, the wife.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lorraine.

Lorraine Warren.

Yeah.

Played by Vera Farmiga, I believe.

Very good.

Yeah.

I told you, I've seen them a bunch.

Yeah, yeah.

I do like them.

But I never have really believed in ghosts and the supernatural and things like that, mainly

because I've never experienced it.

I think people who have experienced something or believe they've experienced something, they

obviously may believe in it.

Yeah.

I find it hard to believe in things that I just haven't experienced.

Yeah, they experienced it to believe it.

You're a non-believer until you experience it.

Then you are a believer.

I would say that's probably true.

But you have this psychic telling Angela that it was Jesse Rios.

Her sister's husband, her brother-in-law, who killed her family.

Now, what are the chances that this psychic watched the news, read the newspaper, knew who

Jesse was, knew that maybe the police had thoughts that they had something to do with

it?

I mean, does that sound plausible?

Possible.

Or is it more likely that she just knows who the killer is?

I don't want to shake your belief in psychics, but I'm kind of leaning towards the, you

know, saw it in the paper type of deal.

Yeah.

I'm leaning towards that way.

Over three years after the murders on February 12, 2015, police arrested 20-year-old Nicholas

Ortiz.

Nicholas, who has no relation to the Ortiz family, was charged with three counts of murder,

as well as evidence tampering and bribery or intimidation of a win.

It had been years since state police offered any information on the investigation.

Nicholas's name hadn't even been made public prior to his arrest.

A court affidavit filed on February 16 stated that a scheme to steal money from a safe inside

the house led to the murders.

Well, if you're going to scheme to take money from the safe, you should probably do that

before the murders.

Yeah.

And I'm sure we're going to talk about it.

But, you know, what if somebody doesn't cooperate, right?

What if Lloyd says, no, I'm not opening the safe?

At some point, you know, whether you're wearing a mask, you're not wearing a mask, especially

if you're not wearing a mask, does somebody make the decision that this ain't going

to happen?

But I can't just leave here.

Yeah.

I was just wondering how you hold three people at bay with a pickaxe.

Yeah.

I don't know that you do it by yourself.

Yeah.

A state police investigator wrote that at various times in recent years, he interviewed

cousins Jose and Ashley Robal, who told him they were with Nicholas on the night of the

murders.

Both witnesses said Nicholas told them he killed the family.

The investigator wrote that Nicholas, who was only 16 at the time of the murders, was

very familiar with the residents and had stayed with the victims on previous occasions.

So, I think, you know, that right there explains how he would know about the, the safe.

Right.

He might even have an inkling of how much money is kept in, in the saves on a regular

basis.

But, you know what struck me was the thought that he's 16-year-old could kill.

Three individuals with a pickaxe, the way that these three were killed.

These were very horrific murders.

They were.

Definitely had to be a troubled teen.

Yeah.

I think you'd have to say that.

According to the affidavit, Ashley Robal was incarcerated on an unrelated charge in

October 2012.

When she contacted the investigator and said she wanted to provide information about the

murders.

Her account of events, as well as information provided by Jose Robal during a September

2014 interview, provided the narrative of the plot to still cash in marijuana from the

Ortiz household.

So, this is where, as we talked about in the very beginning, right, the tip from an inmate

comes in that leads them in the direction of the killer.

Yeah.

But, why does it come in?

It's because she's picked up on a separate charge, and probably doesn't want to be held

responsible for that charge.

So, she's going to roll over on Nicholas, most likely in the hopes of leniency on whatever

she's facing right now.

Time to make a deal.

And that's a deal you know that authorities would easily make.

Oh, for sure.

Because I don't know what the exact charge was.

I'm assuming it's not murder.

You know, so can they make whatever that was go away in exchange for getting a murder

conviction or three murder convictions?

Yeah, I would say that's a deal that most people would make.

Yeah.

Ashley told a state police investigator that she drove Nicholas and Jose, who at that

time was only 15 years old to the crime scene on the night of the murders, Jose said

that is he and Nicholas approached the house.

He changed his mind because he didn't want to kill the family and he started walking

back.

Nicholas said he would kill the family himself and had a pickaxe that Ashley allegedly

gave him to use as a weapon.

Nicholas later told the robot cousins that after he knocked on the back door, Boyd came

out into the backyard and he hit him with the pickaxe.

He killed Dixie in bed and killed Steven in the kitchen.

The affidavit stated, according to Jose, Nicholas said when Steven looked at him, it was

the hardest part.

Nicholas kept swinging at him and after he killed them, he panicked and ran out of the

house.

I mean, in this a 16 year old kid, it sounds to me, Gibbs, like he had an idea of

what he was going to do, but he didn't really have a plan.

And when he got there, all hell kind of broke loose and whatever plan he might have thought

about just kind of evaporated and he's like, I kind of get out of here.

Yeah.

Didn't even get what he wanted.

He just reacted, killed three people, freaked out and ran off.

Ashley said that when she picked Nicholas up that night, he had blood on his clothing

and had plastic bags over his shoes and socks over his hands.

She drove Nicholas to her grandparents house where he told her in Jose that he killed

the family and didn't get the money.

After he showered, she gave him fresh clothing and drove him home, he cried the entire

way.

Sure.

It really was impactful at that moment.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sure it was for a 16 year old kid and his other kid was only 15 years old.

He had the good sense at least to back out of the plan, get out of the car and walk

away, but he is still implicated in some way, he's right.

He was involved in the planning and then you have Ashley who allegedly provided the murder

weapon and drove them to and from the crime scene.

So she's obviously implicated in the murders too, but she's the one who's cutting the

deal.

And what do you always say?

First one cuts the deal, wins.

It's the cheese.

That's right.

Or is it the first one to cut the cheese?

I forget.

I know there's a saying in there somewhere.

Nicholas called her the next day and mentioned his intent was to rob the family of $20,000

that he knew was in a safe in the closet.

He admitted I killed them and warned her not to say anything, $20,000 for three lives.

Now I get it to a 16 year old, $20,000 is a lot of money.

It's a lot of money to most people, unless you're a really rich person, but juxtaposed with

the lives of three people, it seems so inconsequential.

It's ridiculous.

Yeah, just don't think they think that far.

No.

About those.

Yeah, people who do this, they don't think that far ahead.

It's like they want what they want.

And if people get hurt in the process, well, so be it.

The affidavit also indicated that just a few days after the murders, a resident of El Rancho

told state police that Nicholas told him the day after the murders that he killed them,

but didn't specify who.

And that's kind of shocking that the state police were made aware of this and they don't

connect it to murders that happened just a few days prior.

You think it would be fairly easy to connect those dots.

Yeah.

That's always bugs me.

You know, when these people kill other people, that they're so loose with their lips.

Well, again, this is not a criminal mastermind.

No.

Right?

This is a 16 year old kid who is probably scared to death and is going to either let it slip

accidentally or maybe not accidentally because they're just worried about it and they're

talking to people.

I don't know.

An ex-girlfriend told an investigator in July, 2013 that she was dating Jose Robo at

the time of the murders and he told her that night over the phone that he and Nicholas

planned to burglarize the Ortiz home and take their marijuana.

So it's kind of shocking that all of these people kind of knew, right?

There were a number of people who knew about this.

One person even went to the state police very early on, but somehow they didn't put it

together.

Yeah.

I think that's disturbing to me.

It is.

Now, I understand if the ex-girlfriend doesn't, you know, actually go to the police, then

they wouldn't know about that.

On August 3, 2015, Ashley Robo pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit burglary and tampering

with evidence.

She also pleaded guilty to burglary, conspiracy and evidence tampering in a different case.

So apparently she was a burglar, a conspire and a evidence tamperer at the very young

age.

Jose revealed in court that he was offered immunity in exchange for his testimony.

He testified that he and Nicholas talked about burglarizing in the Ortiz home to get

money and marijuana plants, according to Jose after they realized the family was home

that night.

Ashley suggested they kill them.

She gave him and Nicholas socks to put over their hands as well as tissue paper and

plastic bags to cover their shoes and drove them to the residence.

Jose changes his mind and agreed to wait outside while Nicholas killed the family and to

help carry items from the house.

But instead, he ran home.

Well, it actually sounds like the little mastermind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, much more of a mastermind than what she initially said.

Yeah.

And it's strange because she is the one that kickstarted this whole thing, right?

With her tip, but it turns out that Jose is the one that gets the immunity to testify

against Nicholas, most likely because he didn't participate.

He did decide to walk away.

Now he's culpable because he planned it.

He went there, but easier, I think, to let him get immunity, then certainly Nicholas

who did the killing.

But maybe even Ashley, because it sounds like she was very much more involved than what

she initially led on.

Jose testified that Nicholas knew the house well because he lived with the family.

Jose and his mother also once helped Nicholas steal money from the home before the killings.

His mother was unaware what was going on when they dropped Nicholas off.

They later picked him up and loaded a five gallon jug filled with cash and coins into

the vehicle.

So it sounds like Nicholas had a very good understanding of the home, what was in there,

the marijuana plants that the, you know, they kept cash.

I'm just curious if you went and picked up your kid at somebody's house and they load

a five gallon bucket of coins and bills, are you just going to be like, Hey, honey,

how'd you take go?

You're not going to be like, Hey, what is that?

Well, even if I didn't know what was in it, bringing a five gallon bucket that you didn't

take with you is going to garner a bunch of questions.

I'm going to want to see it.

I'm going to want to know what's there.

And then once I see it, I'm going to have even more questions.

And it's not going to be something you can easily just carry with one arm, right?

No coins are heavy.

Yeah.

Five gallons of coins.

Cash doesn't weigh anything, but coins, you know, they can get really heavy.

Jose admitted under cross examination that he had burglarized homes and lied to federal

agents who first questioned it.

So no, I mean, he wasn't a boy scout either in this whole thing.

But my thought is they needed his cooperation.

They needed his testimony to get the conviction against Nicholas, which is why he was granted

immunity.

Ashley Robald denied that she ever suggested to Nicholas and Jose that they should kill the

Ortiz family.

She knew they intended to burglarize the house and admitted to driving them there.

She picked Nicholas up 20 minutes later and gave him clean clothes and a trash bag to

dispose of his bloody garments.

She denied giving them socks to put on their hands.

So, you know, we've got an argument here or conflicting information, right?

Who's telling the truth?

But even the stuff that Ashley does admit to is pretty damn it.

She knew about it ahead of time.

She drove them there.

She helped Nicholas clean up, right, gave him clean clothes, helped him just dispose of

his bloody clothes.

All of that is extremely criminal.

It is.

She's very involved.

She admitted that she lied to state police because she was afraid someone would find out

she talked to investigators and harm her grandparents whom she lived with.

She was afraid of both Jose and Nicholas.

Nicholas said warned her not to say anything and she knew what he was capable of.

And that might be true.

It also might be true that she didn't want anybody to know the role she played.

I definitely think she didn't want anybody to know the role she played.

Ashley said she came forward a year later because of her guilty conscience.

And because she had already been helping the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office identify

suspect in area burglaries at the time.

So did she come forward because of her guilty conscience or because she got picked up on

another charge and she thought she could, you know, use this information to get out of that.

Yeah, that's the latter.

I'm not buying the guilty conscience.

I'm really not.

The court also heard from Sherry Ortiz and her son, Robert, Nicholas was good friends

with Robert and came over every day after school, often stayed for dinner and sometimes stayed

overnight.

Very testified that Nicholas stayed with them for several months and was welcomed into her parents

home.

Robert said Nicholas felled at home with his family and they sometimes spent evenings at his

grandparents house visiting and smoking marijuana with them and Steven.

So how much of an additional shock and kind of gut punches it to find out that the perpetrator

is someone that, you know, you welcomed into your home with open arms.

Oh, I think it's a huge cut punch.

You made them dinner.

They stayed overnight.

They were friends with your child.

He smoked a joint or a bowl with them.

Come on.

There's a bond there.

Absolutely.

There's a bond.

One night, the family discovered Nicholas hiding in their yard.

Nicholas jumped up and scared him.

His grandparents scolded Nicholas before they left to get dinner.

Nicholas started acting strangely and said he had to leave.

He then turned to Robert and said, just hit me in the face, dude, just hit me right

now.

Okay.

It's kind of a weird thought process.

It is.

Also, what is it with all these people hiding and jumping out and scaring, you know, these

people?

Now, they maybe were smoking quite a bit of marijuana.

I don't know if that played into it or not.

Robert didn't hit him and Nicholas walked away into a field.

Robert never saw him again until after the murders.

Bizarre.

Well, it sounds like, you know, this event, either, you know, how to

profound impact on Nicholas, it definitely must have either put a strain on their relationship

or Nicholas just didn't want to be around them because he was embarrassed.

He was upset.

I don't know what.

Yeah.

It is strange that you just walked down the field and disappeared.

I remember that happened to me.

I was young.

I was at my grandparents' farm.

Was it after you guys made that baseball field and the corn?

Yeah.

Yep.

You know, I mean, we built it.

And they came.

They came.

So, yeah.

On August 5th, the judge bound Nicholas over for trial.

His trial started on May 17, 2016.

Prosecutors noted that the murders occurred weeks after the Ortiz family kicked Nicholas

out of their house for stealing marijuana.

The jury heard testimony from key witnesses, Jose and Ashley Robal, who gave differing

stories.

I guess differing stories to protect each other.

No, I think to protect themselves.

I mean, themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, let's not forget.

Jose's got immunity.

So, he can tell the absolute truth.

Yeah.

He has nothing to lose.

Ashley, on the other hand, I'm not sure can tell the absolute truth because she's facing

a number of charges.

Yeah.

I mean, Jose could not tell the truth because he's upset with somebody, but I think probably

on her earlier that's going to be unlikely.

Yeah.

I mean, he's not going to want to take the chance of messing up his immunity deal.

Exactly.

In opening statements, Defense Attorney Dan Marlow argued that the two witnesses couldn't

be telling the truth.

Jose testified that at first he and Nicholas planned to steal from the family because they

needed money, Ashley pushed them to kill the family and provided the murder weapon.

He and Nicholas both refused at first, but Ashley was being persistent, trying to convince

us to do it.

And you know, that doesn't sound like the most believable thing in the world to me.

I get it.

She might have said, hey, just kill him, but being persistent, trying to convince us

to do it is a, you know, a far cry from, we had no choice but to do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

I mean, you could have just said no.

Very easily.

Jose eventually agreed to wait outside while Nicholas killed the family and he would go

in and help him remove valuables from the home.

He changed his mind though once they arrived at the house.

During cross examination, Jose said he had a written statement promising he wouldn't

be charged if he testified truthfully.

The defense claimed prosecutors never provided such a document and asked for a mistrial.

The judge asked both sides to file written arguments on the mistrial motion, which was denied

the next day.

Ashley denied Jose's version of events and said the boys planned the robbery on their

own.

She only agreed to give them a ride in exchange for a share of the stolen goods.

She was surprised when new spread about the murders.

She recanted her earlier statements that Nicholas was drenched in blood when she picked him

up, but said she did see several blood stains on his pants.

Okay.

Then why did you say originally he was drenched in blood.

And again, she had already admitted that number one, she gave him a change of clothes.

And number two, she helped him dispose of the bloody clothes he was wearing.

The jury also heard that state police interviewed Nicholas less than a week after the murders.

Each time they talked to him, he denied any involvement and said he had no reason to kill

the family.

So we mentioned that there was a tip they came in very early on.

Yeah.

Like within a few days about Nicholas, it does sound as though they interviewed him multiple

times, but they couldn't get him to admit anything.

When told by police in 2013 that the roballs had talked to investigators and that cell records

placed him near the home, he continued to deny his role and claimed he was with his parents

and sisters that night, prosecutors presented cell records showing phone and text interactions

between Nicholas, Jose and Ashley, they didn't present the content of those texts or calls

nor any physical evidence placing Nicholas at the scene, just so that they were communicating.

Which I thought was a little strange because if they're all friends and two of them are

related, why would they not be communicating?

So to me, what are you actually showing?

Now if you got cell records that are putting them at the home that night, that's different,

just records of phone and text interactions without the actual content of those, I don't

know what that means.

Maybe he had that changes everything.

Nicholas's parents both testified he was home that night, but their stories didn't match.

It's going to be tough to believe parents of a suspect let alone a suspect at 16 years

old because I kind of believe that you're probably really concerned as a parent as a parent

and you would do anything to try to protect your kids, maybe even life for them.

Yeah, I get that.

I think though when your stories don't match, it kind of gives it away.

They also testified that Nicholas didn't spend extended periods away from the home except

for when he stayed with an aunt in the fall.

Nicholas told police he spent the day of the murders with the robles, but went home

at 10 pm and went to bed.

However his father Leonard testified that the family ate dinner together and watched

movies until everyone went to sleep.

Does Array Ortiz testified the entire family walked on the track at the local wellness

center before they went to the store to get groceries, then went home to dinner and

watch movies, she couldn't say for sure if Nicholas was there all night because she

was working the night shift and left at 9.30 pm.

I feel like the family should have got together and said, here's our story, everybody

getting in line with it, Leonard testified that Nicholas came into his room after midnight

to wish him a happy father's day.

On June 1, 2016, the jury announced they were unable to reach a verdict.

They were deadlocked eight to four in favor of guilt on the murder charges.

So the judge declared a mistro, Nicholas's retrial started on November 29, 2016.

The prosecution described Nicholas as a calculated killer who destroyed a family while the

defense pointed out the same weaknesses from the original trial, lack of physical evidence

and inconsistent witness state.

Then I get why possibly that the first jury could have been deadlocked.

You've got the row balls up there telling contrasting stories and differing versions of

events.

And you're thinking why are there stories not matching?

And it doesn't sound like there's this mountain of evidence, physical evidence putting

him at the scene or eyewitnesses or really anything like that.

But they went through the trial, didn't take long because on December 9, 2016, Nicholas

Ortiz was found guilty of three counts of murder, aggravated burglary and conspiracy to commit

aggravated burglary.

On June 14, 2018, Ashley was sentenced to 20 years in prison with six years suspended

for conspiracy to commit aggravated burglary and tampering with evidence.

It goes almost two years after Nicholas was found guilty on the second trial that she

was sentenced, but 20 years no joke.

No, it's not.

In March 2019, the state Supreme Court reversed a district court ruling that would have granted

Nicholas a third trial.

On October 28th of that year, Nicholas received three concurrent 25 year sentences for murder.

Good.

It is good, but they're concurrent.

I don't like when they do that, though.

So it's basically 25 years now, granted, he was only 16 years old.

But to me, you know, with the heinousness of the murders, you would think that he could

be tried as an adult.

I mean, these were adult like murders killing three people with a pickaxe.

And maybe the jury looked at him as a kid when it came to this.

Yeah.

It's possible.

The family had asked for life without parole and prosecutors wanted a 72 year sentence.

So, you know, three 25 year sentences that are concurrent, that's a far cry from what

the family and even the prosecutors wanted.

Nicholas spoke at the sentencing hearing, tongue in the court.

He took a wrong turn early in life, but his sense found God in change.

She said, I've come a long way from the child I was at 16 to the man I am.

At 24 today, I know I made some mistakes early on.

I'm very sorry for the heartbreak everyone has had to endure.

I did not do what I'm facing my life because of today.

I was a little shocked that it took like eight years for him to be sent.

That's a long time.

The sentencing occurred almost three years after he was convicted.

Now I know there was appeals and things like that, but I'm still shocked that the sentencing

took that long.

On August 2, 2021, the New Mexico Supreme Court upheld Nicholas's conviction and sentence.

According to court documents, before sentencing, the defense argued that Nicholas should be

given an amenability hearing, afforded to juvenile defendants to determine how likely

it is he could be rehabilitated and whether he should be sentenced as an adult.

The state argued that such hearings are only granted to defendants between the ages

of 14 and 18 convicted of secondary murder or lesser crimes or defendants 14 and younger

convicted of first degree murder.

Nicholas was 16 at the time of his arrest and was convicted of felony first degree murder.

That's why he wasn't eligible.

The judge held a hearing, but adjourned the proceedings without making a ruling.

Nicholas's defense argued that the denial of an amenability hearing violated his rights.

But the Supreme Court found that the sentencing procedure applied to this case and didn't violate

his rights.

I mean, look, I think he got lucky with sentencing.

Yes.

I think so too.

Now, losing 25 years of your life is never good.

But for killing three people, that is a pretty light sense.

I get it.

He was only 16 years old, but most 16 year olds that are convicted of a triple homicide

in the manner that these occurred, I think, would get more than 25 years in most instances.

So I'm with you.

I think he got pretty lucky as far as the amount of time that he's going to have to serve.

The New Mexico Corrections Department of Fender Search indicates that Ashley is out on probation.

According to KRQE, Nicholas Ortiz has been in custody since his 2015 arrest.

When we'll receive credit for time served, he'll be required to serve 85% of his sentence.

And he'll be eligible for parole in late 2036 or early 2037.

Got two more years.

Yeah.

And I think if you're the family, you're just not thrilled about that.

You just don't think that 25 years or 85% of 25 years is anywhere close to paying for

the crime that occurred and what was taken away from you, you know, mother, a father,

a brother.

Yeah.

That's a lot to lose.

Yeah.

I don't think you can be happy with the way it turned out.

No.

And you're not going to be happy when he gets out in about 10 years.

No.

But I don't know that there's really much that can be done about it.

But that's it for our episode on the Ortiz family murders.

We got some voicemails gibs.

You want to check those out?

It's here.

Hi guys.

I'm Michelle.

I'm in the middle of listening to the Ericka Green case and it's got me taken out.

Thank you for bringing the attention to all these cases.

Oh, this is the rough one.

Anyhow, I love your show.

I listen to it every day when I'm driving delivering mail.

It helps.

Have the time.

So I appreciate you guys and yeah, keep your own time.

Take care.

Thank you.

I appreciate the voicemail.

You can hear the emotion there.

Absolutely.

And it was a tough case.

It was.

It was a tough case to research.

It was a tough case to cover to talk about.

But some, you know, some of these cases, they need to be talked about.

They do.

I think Ericka deserved to have her story told.

But no doubt.

Very tough one.

Very tough one.

I'm going to give you a mic.

It's Rick Smith on Patreon.

We're Holly and Rick Smith and following it for a long time.

My wife introduced me to you guys in 2017 and you got me through a long stretch of working

out of state.

Have not called you yet.

But today I will stay cyclones.

Take the crap out of your Kentucky wildcat.

So I just have to say, keep your head on a swivel and go cyclones.

Boy, did they ever.

And man, I was really hoping someone would come, would call in and remind me of that.

Yeah.

No, they really did.

They took it to my wildcats and they were just so much better.

They were, man, so much better.

I thought we had a chance in the first half of the second half, wasn't even close.

You had no chance.

Had no chance.

Cyclones.

Kick their butts.

You have no idea what he's even talking about.

She didn't watch the game.

You're just parroting what he said.

So we appreciate the support and the call very much.

We did have some mailbag, Tory Rasmussen, send in some Harley chips from the great state

of Utah.

Awesome.

So we appreciate that very much.

All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time.

So for Mike, stay safe and keep your room time ticking.