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What do you think about the fact that Donald Trump is now one of your constituents?

I mean, I don't think all of that much about it.

Right, he's one of 115,000 registered voters in District 87.

My opponent made, you know, him forefront in his campaign.

And I focused more on the voters in District 87, you know, what everybody needs.

What all of us will do better with lower property insurance,

with expanded healthcare, and with strong public schools.

I think we've learned over the last several years that no one is coming to save us.

We have to save ourselves.

So I might have done some crazy calculus to decide that this was a flip opportunity.

But it was, and we did it.

So my math is...

Hi again, everybody.

It is 5 o'clock now in New York.

I'm Elise Cimananda's Inferno-Cole Wallace.

The real beauty of this thing we call democracy is,

messy and as noisy and as chaotic as it can be, is that, at least for now,

the American people have the final say.

Ultimately, they are the ones steering this ship.

So if in when Donald Trump's own neighbors, his home community decided they'd rather be

represented by a Democrat, said as someone he endorsed, well, then that's that.

Last night in a special election for a state house seat in Florida,

Democrat Emily Gregory defeated Republican John Maples in a district that includes Mar-a-Lago.

That is a flipped seat in 2024, a different Republican candidate,

one big to the tune of 19 points.

And yes, we can tick through all the usual caveats.

You probably know them already.

You can tick through them yourself.

Trump wasn't on the ballot.

It was really close.

There's a long way to November.

This was a single race in a single district, not, and on, and on, and on.

And it would be unfair to reduce the hard work.

Emily Gregory and her team to a simple yes or no referendum on Trump.

But don't talk yourself out of how significant and how symbolic this result really was,

especially when you put it into context.

Because as of last night, Democrats have now flipped 30 state legislative seats

across this country since Trump was elected.

Republicans, they flipped zero.

No, Democrats are now 30 and oh.

In case a bar graph is helpful in visualizing that, there you go.

The question now, why?

Maybe the answer is in the way Emily Gregory ran her campaign with a razor sharp focus

on the proper message, one that included in large part an issue on the minds of Americans

from coast to coast to these days.

And that is the cost of living.

The latest Reuters Ipsis poll made a clear only 25% of Americans a quarter of Americans.

A proof of the way Donald Trump is handling our cost of living.

Well, 66% two thirds disapprove.

Trump might put those numbers in the same way.

He might disagree that Democrats going 30 and oh,

and flipped legislative seats since he was elected.

Constitutes some sort of blue wave.

But hey, if he's that worried about it, he is always free to write his team.

Resonative.

And that is where we start this hour with NSNow political analysts and pollster,

Cornell Belcher.

Also with us, former senior advisor to President Biden,

MVP Harris, former mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrew.

He is now the co-chair of American Bridge, 21st century.

And joining me at the table, political analyst Molly Zhang-Fashy is the host

of vast politics and a New York Times contributing opinion writer.

Well, well, well, Mayor Landrew, your reaction to these results out of Florida.

Well, some, some wins a suite of the others.

If you can take, you know, a queen or a king or a rock from somebody's backyard,

it always feels better.

But I think that it does have national significance in this way.

When Donald Trump ran for office, he said he was going to do two things.

Stay out of foreign wars and reduce everybody's costs.

The American people are saying loudly and clearly over a very long period of time,

and many states across the nation that the president has lost his focus.

And they want him to get focused on costs.

But Donald Trump is focused on chaos.

He's focused on corruption.

He's focused on incompetence.

I think that newly elected state representatives said it right,

which he said, listen, the folks here are just interested in, you know,

table kitchen table issues.

Can you pay the rent?

Can you pay the mortgage?

Can you send the kids to school?

There was another race in North Carolina.

It was a Republican on Republican race where I believe it was the Senate,

Republican Senate majority lead a loss to a sheriff.

And the issue was very local.

It was about the sighting of a casino in the particular district.

I learned this for 16 years in the legislature.

No matter how high you got, no matter how high you butt gut up in the air,

if you forgot about your constituents at home,

you forgot what they cared about the most,

they're going to throw you out of office.

And we have won 29 races now.

It's 29-0.

So I think the messages,

they focus on what the people want,

and they want lower costs, and they want better lives.

What about your speaking of staying focused?

I want you to take a look at this campaign ad

from Emily Gregory,

because it speaks to hitting that message straight out of the gate.

Watch.

Cost keep rising in Florida,

and families are filling the squeeze.

Emily Gregory gets it.

She's a mom, a military spouse,

and a small business owner facing the same challenges we all are.

Emily is running because Tallahassee needs leaders

who understand real life,

and will fight for real relief,

not political talking points.

In this state house,

Emily will work to lower cost,

address the property insurance crisis,

and strengthen public schools

so every child can succeed.

Though Emily Gregory,

honor before March 24th.

To borrow some of the language from the mayor,

that's the problem with folks having their butts too high up

in the air,

which is they can no longer make the argument

that they understand what life is like for real people.

Right? That bio.

I'm a mom.

I'm a military spouse.

I'm a small business owner.

I know what you're going through,

because I'm going through it myself,

keeping laser focus on what it is she's going to deliver.

We have watched her now over,

and over, and over again,

that be a winning message for Democrats.

Look, I think that's right.

And look, you know,

Marylanders always spot on with colorful language.

But also, I don't want to think

that there's a single silver bullet,

because one thing that Marylanders also understand

is that all these races

come down to good candidates

and really sort of building a campaign

that fits authentically that candidate.

But I will say that when you go zero for 30,

it's not just a phenomenon.

It is in fact a trend.

And even look at the off your elections

in New Jersey and Virginia last year,

where I expected us to do well in those elections.

I didn't expect this to win by those sorts of margins.

So you see that,

so you see not only,

Democrats performing well

with modern and dependent voters,

but you also see it.

I think this is really important

going into a midterm election.

You see, you turn out better than what we typically see it.

And you're seeing it in primaries

and you see Democrats turning out

in these special elections.

And not only that, but look,

it's where Democrats are winning, right?

It's not just,

it's not necessarily even swing areas,

like that Marilago district.

That's not a swing area.

That's not some workplace that Democrats

will say, this is a swing district.

And when you look at where they're winning in Arkansas

and in Texas and even in Mississippi,

these are deeply red areas.

And if Democrats are able to overperform

in deeply red areas,

at the state level like this,

I think you are looking at potentially

a different kind of midterm,

a perhaps sea change midterm

if Republicans can't turn it around.

Molly, what are those numbers sitting you?

Well, I want to point out,

I want to point out that Emily Gregory,

first time candidate,

run for something candidate,

so shout out to Amanda Lippman.

So if you're sitting here watching TV

thinking like, what could I do?

Here's a woman, right?

Business owner, married to a veteran,

decides, why not me?

And I do think like the important point here

about the local, you heard her have this line

about property insurance.

That is a big deal in Florida.

And that's because of the Republican governor

among other things.

And property insurance has gotten crazy expensive.

And so that was a good sort of pivot to like the local.

But yes, Donald Trump is a drag on the ballot.

And that's what we're seeing.

And he's underwater on the things that he has known,

you know, the things that he was not underwater

on historically, the economy and immigration.

And like, you know, I saw polling today

that was as low as Biden

at his lowest, you know, post debate numbers.

And so you do see, he's going to be a drag on the ticket.

Well, and you're seeing some of those numbers manifest,

Mary Landrew in polling about generic,

when they talk about generic Democrats,

Quinnipiac had this on the generic ballot,

Democrats up by 11 points as of this week.

Do you think that's a mirage?

No, no, I don't actually.

You have a very interesting thing going on.

And both, and both Mollie and Cornel,

the brilliant people,

where you have national issues

that are affecting local issues in this sense.

When people think the president has lost control,

he's lost his mind.

He's using his power in the wrong way.

He's engaging in corruption.

He's now making choices about foreign wars.

If the impact is to increase cost on the local level,

you have national issues and local issues

converging and crashing against each other

in a way that's negative for the president.

And unfortunately, the president will not self-correct

because he always thinks he's right about everything

when he's mostly wrong about everything.

And the one thing that people can do is to vote.

And I think that you're seeing this, as Cornel said,

these are not just purple districts.

These are red districts where white working class men

who may have voted for Donald Trump two times have said,

I can't believe he gave a tax cut to billionaires.

And he took away my Medicaid

because I have a special needs child

and it's making my life possible to manage

because now I can't pay my rent.

I can't pay my mortgage.

I can't pay my note of my car and my kids sick.

I think you're having that sense out there.

And I think they think the president

has lost control, lost focus.

And that's self-correcting, as Mollie said.

Cornel, it seems like given all of these, the 30 and oh,

given the polling that Republicans big play here

is the Save America act, right?

Like there's going to mess with elections

as much as they can

and the interest that if they can't win the game

then they'll rig the rules and play the rafts.

I thought this in that context was interesting.

Cornel, it's a new reporting from the New York Times.

President Trump and the Republican National Committee

are strongly considering Dallas

as the site and of an unusual midterm convention later this year

that's according to two people

with knowledge of the discussions.

Republicans are working to finalize the plan

as they seek to rally their voters

in the face of political headwinds.

Some details must still be finalized

including the exact dates

and official said formal paperwork

still needed to be signed.

But Trump advisors who are looking to parade their candidates

and rally the base are close to settling

on Dallas over other options

which had included Las Vegas,

according to the people who were granted anonymity

to share the private planning information.

The party is targeting a date after a labor day

to try to maximize early voting momentum.

Your sense of what it is

that Republicans are trying to do here.

Well, first let me say this

and let me underline something

that Mayor talked about.

That's getting a little bit in the weeds.

Typically you don't see a 11-point generic

horse race open up.

When you do see a generic horse race open up

11 points, look the last one.

When I was posted for the DNC under Howard Dean

going into 2006,

we finally saw a 11-point horse race open up

and you had a sweeping sea change election.

So we're in the cup of something

really different happening in our elections here.

When you look at Republicans

want to do a rally in Texas,

I think they're running scared, right?

If you want to do a rally in Texas

to try to sort of energize and boost your folks

and you'd for to be going to Dallas

and specifically Texas,

I think the upside for Republicans

is probably larger than a downside

because they're going to focus attention

on Trump and his disastrous policies.

And I got to tell you,

if I'm the Senate Democratic candidate

in Texas, I'd love the ideal

that he's going to come there

and he's going to highlight how

the Republican Senate candidate

is embracing and put his arms around Trump

and all of his wildly unpopular policies.

Right, because this is the challenge for them,

which is they need him for their base.

He repulses everyone who is not their base.

Yeah, and Texas, the reason they're going to Texas

because they're worried about Latina voters, right?

They know, they see those polls

and that is a group that swung to Trump in 24

and is swinging away.

I would add the, I think they're a little worried

about the Senate seat because remember,

they're still in a,

Kornin and Paxton are still in a runoff, right?

If Trump, people in the Republican Party

want Trump to embrace Kornin

because Kornin seems like the more less mag,

more sort of normalish, you might get indies.

But here's the problem.

Paxton is sort of, it has so much momentum

because he's Trump, he's basically Trumpier than Trump

that if Trump endorses Kornin,

he may lose some of the mega base that he desperately needs.

But if he endorses Paxton,

he then loses these indies.

So he really is an impossible situation

and that's why he hasn't done anything yet.

They are nervous.

Mayor, I want you to take a listen

to what the White House Chief of Staff Suzy Wiles

said back in December.

This was after some special election defeats.

Typically, in the midterms,

it's not about who's sitting at the White House.

It's you localize the election

and you keep the federal officials out of it.

We're actually going to turn that on its head.

Good.

And put them on the ballot

because so many of those low propensity voters

are Trump voters.

Yes, they are.

And we saw a week ago Tuesday

what happens when he's not on the ballot and not active.

So I haven't quite broken it to him yet

but he's going to campaign like it's 2024 again.

Mayor?

Well, does that still hold?

I'll tell you a couple of things.

Well, Cornel Belch is the great, you know,

he's the guy that knows about this stuff.

But let me just make a couple of points.

It is generally not true what she said.

That's really not the way that it works.

Most of the polling data indicates

that when you take the mega Republicans

and the Democrats out

and you focus on the independence

and the non-magger Republicans,

they are speaking identically

as Democrats are now.

And they're saying the president's lost focus.

He's engaged in chaos, corruption,

and incompetence.

He's focused on foreign wars

and he's not focused on the things

that we need to help us make a better living.

That's why the crossover votes are so strong.

And if the president insists on continuing

on the path that he's on,

he's going to continue to get the result

that has been handed to him 29 nothing

and it's going to be a big thing.

Now, I think Cornell is right.

You have to have great candidates.

You have to have a message

that is tailored to the community that you're in.

Authenticity here is the coin of the realm.

That's what people want.

They don't want any more bullshit.

They want you straight up somebody

who's from there that talks in a way

that they completely identify with

because then from the neighborhood

and they understand what's going on in their life.

They feel like the world is out of control

and they want us to focus on their life

with every neighborhood you happen to be in.

And if candidates do that,

they are much more likely to win.

Donald Trump's incapable of doing that.

I think Susie knows it

and I think she's kind of starting to make an excuse already

and saying it's really in the president's hands,

but he's going to lose.

Mayor, could you just stick on this point

for a second, given these results,

does that then change

if you were at the DNC

how you're thinking about where you put your money?

Well, you know, I'm of the opinion

that if I'm from a red state,

I think you have to go everywhere.

Lincoln, Louisiana, we have parishes,

not counties.

There's 64 of them.

I would campaign in every one of them

because if it's a statewide election,

every vote in every parish matter,

sometimes Democrats have like state

focused just in the cities

and they outer ring in the cities.

You have to have candidates that can play everywhere.

You'll see this in Georgia.

You'll see it in North Carolina.

You should see it in Texas.

I think Representative Talleriko has done a great job

of going places

and making them defend in places they didn't think.

So I think the DNC has got to be very smart about it,

but I do think when you get away from just like

where you're going to spend your money,

who you're going to spend your money on

should be an authentic candidate

that speaks to the pocketbook issues

that people care about the most.

That is not to say that national concern

shouldn't come into play,

whether we're at war, whether we're in peace

because it does affect local issues

and you have to have somebody

that can talk about those as well.

But if you do that to the exclusion

of what people care about the most

and they're saying it loud and clear,

focus on me.

I need help.

I'm drowning.

I want to save democracy

but can you help me save a couple of bucks

while you add it because I can't make ends meet?

And in less than until you do that,

I'm going to throw you out

and I'm going to vote for somebody else.

And I think that we ought to take that message

and run with it.

Colonel Boucher,

Mitch Landrew, thank you both so much

for getting us started, Molly.

You are sticking with me when we return.

What are the Republicans doing about all this winning

by Democrats?

They are looking to make voting harder

so that fewer people can vote.

Marco Lys is going to join us on his efforts

to make sure that does not happen next.

Also ahead, we've had more time

to forward through the video depositions

of two of Jeffrey Epstein's closest confidants.

And among the things we have found,

a stunning acknowledgement

that has Epstein survivors

and their allies once again

excusing the federal government of a cover-up.

Deadline White House continues

after a quick break.

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And the growing signs

that November's midterms could be a wipe out

for Donald Trump's party.

Republicans are ramping up efforts

to interfere in our elections.

Donald Trump is urging Senate Republicans

to skip Easter

and pass his highly restrictive voting bill.

The save act.

While Republicans at the state level

are seizing ballots and handing over voter rolls

to Trump's DOJ.

The New York Times reports that, quote,

a Republican sheriff who is running for Governor of California

recently seized more than 650,000 ballots

cast in a 2025 statewide election.

The investigation evolves ballots

cast in the 2025 special election

over Proposition 50.

Chas voters, whether they wanted to allow Democrats

to redraw the state's congressional districts

in response to the nationwide redistricting war,

Republicans sparked in Texas last year.

Come to states are increasingly caving

to the Trump administration's demands

to hand over voter data.

Democracy Docket reports that Oklahoma

is the latest state to hand over its full voter rolls

to Trump's DOJ.

Writing this, quote,

under a newly executed settlement,

state officials will give the DOJ

a complete copy of Oklahoma's

statewide voter registration database,

including voters' names,

birth dates, residential addresses,

and identifying numbers,

including driver's licenses,

and the last four digits of social security numbers.

I want to bring in voting rights attorney

and founder of Democracy Docket,

Mark Elias.

Molly is still with us.

All right, Mark, talk to us

about what we're seeing at the state level,

both in Oklahoma and in California.

I mean, what we're watching is the part of this

that worries me the most, right?

We've focused a lot on what Donald Trump

is trying to force on blue states

and on counties that want to do the right thing.

But what about all the red states

and the county officials that want to do the wrong thing, right?

We need to play book that is not just

protecting against bad actors

taking on the good guys.

But what happens when the bad guys show up

and the bad guys in state are like,

yep, we're here with you.

So we've seen this now, as you point out,

in both Oklahoma where the state of Oklahoma

initially refused to turn over,

its citizens' most sensitive voter information.

My law firm and I, we intervene

to protect the voting rights of individual voters

in that state.

And notwithstanding that,

the state of Oklahoma turned around

and then settled the case

and basically gave the information that DOJ wanted.

And that is a tragedy for democracy

around the country and in particular

for the voters of Oklahoma,

you have, in my opinion, not been well served.

And then in California, as you point out,

you've got a Republican sheriff

who's also running for governor in the state

who seized 650,000 ballots.

650,000 ballots, you seized.

And, you know, look,

we've talked before you and I, Alicia and Molly

and I have talked lots about the risk

of the Department of Justice

is in ballots in place like Fulton County.

But now we got to worry about every Republican sheriff

around the country who's an election

in dire and democracy docket reported earlier today.

This is a guy who posted on social media,

quote, some people should never be allowed to vote.

I mean, you know, this is,

this is not some on the, on the level guy.

This is a, this is a election in dire.

And so we got to, we got to all up our game.

Wait, can you, can you, can you,

can you, when I stay on that point

because there was a piece to that?

And yeah, you can feel the overtoned window

on this absolutely shifting.

Let me read you this piece.

In a fair world, 150 million Americans

wouldn't be allowed to vote.

We should do more than just require ID to vote.

The Save Act is the least we should do.

It's rookie numbers.

We should do far more.

The way fewer people should be allowed to vote.

The next time the pendulum swings

and it will swing Republicans

ram through a new voting measure.

Americans must meet two of three criteria to vote.

Be a net contributor to tax revenue.

Own property.

Be married with children.

That dear reader is what they call skin in the game.

Your sense of not only where they are right now, Mark,

but where they're going next.

Oh, I'm so glad you brought this up

because the one thing that Donald Trump has been really good at

is shifting the overtoned window.

I mean, you know, if you start with what we,

what we believed democracy was and is

and you look at how far it has tilted

to the acceptable arguments

that are now treated in plate company

as if they are, you know, they're worth debating.

It's remarkable.

And so we now have, as you see,

the arguments that, that, you know,

not every American citizen should be able to vote.

This is not that different than, by the way,

Donald Trump saying not everyone born in the United States

should be a US citizen, right?

I mean, the whole notion of doing

where a birthright citizenship was a huge shift

of the overtoned window.

It is the next step there is to say,

well, if married women can't prove

that they are the same person as they were

on their birth certificate, their name has changed.

Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Well, how far is that to just saying,

well, maybe only men should be allowed to vote, right?

This is, these are all notions that will sound

really out of way outside the mainstream

so that people listen to this audience.

But if you pay attention to what it is

that mega figures are saying,

and not just for figures, but elected officials are saying

and prominent sports are saying,

this is the kind of stuff they traffic in,

it is dangerous, but it is equally dangerous for us

to not take it seriously.

And to put up every fight we possibly can

to make sure that we have free and fair elections

and that every eligible citizen is able

to cast a ballot and have it count.

Well, tell me if you disagree,

but it's hard not to see what's happening

in Oklahoma, what's happening in California,

the shifting of the overtoned window

to have something to do with the conversation you and I

were just having a few minutes ago

about the fact that Republicans are not winning on the merits.

Yes, and in fact, you got Mike Lee,

the senator from Utah saying that the Save America Act

is the only way we can save the midterms basically.

You had Mark Meadows saying that,

and you've even had these people,

and I think what Mark Lois was saying before

is important, talking about how women voters are really,

because remember,

because women voters have not embraced Trumpism

and they were sort of, and a lot of women voters

did not go along with Trumpism.

And they're saying, well, maybe women shouldn't,

and remember, this Save Act part of it

is that it would disenfranchise married women, right?

You'd have to get if you had a name change,

it would make it harder to vote.

But I think one of the important points here

which should not be missed is that Alaska Senator,

Lisa Murkowski even said today

that a couple living in rural Alaska would have to pay

to get other identification,

and then they would have to bring your identification

into a voting.

I mean, the whole point is voter suppression here.

This is to make it harder to vote.

The whole point is voter suppression.

It's, I mean, you have to say, Mark,

and you've been saying this for a really,

it is remarkable.

The number of fields they are playing this on,

whether it is the redistricting fight,

whether it is the Save Act,

whether it is this demand for voting roles,

as we've seen out of various states,

or whether it's Steve Vannon calling ICE agents

that airports a test run for the midterms.

When he says that, do you believe he's socializing

that idea with his base, with the American people?

How far do you think they go,

and do you think that the courts are going to be able to stop them?

Look, I wrote about this for democracy

that I get yesterday.

And since I know you're a subscriber,

I know you read it.

But the fact is, everything we are seeing them do right now

is part of a test run, right?

Why did they seize ballots in Fulton County?

Sure, part of it's about continuing to tell the big lie from 2020,

but part of it is a test run for how you seize ballots.

Why did they subpoena ballot images from Maricopa County?

Same thing.

I would say the same thing, by the way,

about what this Republican sheriff did in California.

You know, Steve Vannon said a few months ago

that there were going to be ICE agents surrounding the polls.

Now he is saying that they will be used to check ID.

Well, just think about what he's saying here.

They will not just in his vision be used outside of the polls.

They'll actually be the person checking you in

when you show up inside the polls, right?

So all of this is trying to normalize it.

All of it is trying to make it seem reasonable.

And all of it is a test run to see how far they can get away with

in trying to undermine free and fair elections this fall.

Now will the courts hold?

I hope so.

I mean, look, you know, I was one of the people

shouting at the top of my lungs in 2020

and people thought I was being alarmist

and it turns out I was pretty spot on and the courts held.

And so now I'm screaming at the top of my lungs again

and I am hoping the courts hold.

I'm doing everything I can.

We're fighting in court in 90 places,

my little law firm of 60 people.

And we're winning and Pam Bondi hates me

and Donald Trump hates me

and we're going to keep fighting.

Fighting in 90 places and still finding time

to send those emails to your loyal subscribers.

Marco Lias, Molly Zhang fast.

Thank you both so much for joining us today.

When we return, we are learning much more

from the depositions of Jeffrey Epstein's long-time attorney

and accountant.

And while they say they did not have knowledge

of Epstein's crimes, they also said something else

that suggests government investigators

truly robbed the ball.

We're going to have that after short break.

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The release of the depositions of both Jeffery Appstein's accountant, Richard Kahn,

and his lawyer, Darren Indike, is leading to more questions

about the Justice Department's handling of the Appstein case.

Here's what they told the House Oversight Committee.

We've been talking about the investigation

and prosecution of Jeffery Appstein that were conducted in Florida.

As you know, Mr. Appstein was subsequently investigated and executed

in the Southern District of New York.

Were you ever contacted by the Department of Justice

or the FBI in connection with that investigation?

No.

Were you ever contacted by the Department of Justice

or the FBI in connection with the investigation

or prosecution of Golan Maxwell

in the Southern District of New York?

I was not personally contacted.

Have you ever been formally questioned

by any government authority in connection with Mr. Appstein?

I've never been questioned by any government authority.

Absolutely wild.

Neither Kahn or Indike have been accused of wrongdoing.

But they are two men who worked with the deceased sex offender for years.

It's hard to believe the DOJ would not have interest in talking to either of them.

As NBC News points out, their testimony directly undercuts the government's review of the case,

which quote,

the Justice Department and the FBI called Exhaustive.

In an unsigned joint memo in July,

announcing that the government would not disclose additional materials on the disgraced financier.

I want to bring in our senior legal reporter, Lisa Rubin,

and Tara Pomary is with us.

She writes the red letter on Substack and has hosted two podcast series on the Appstein case.

It is good to see you both.

That is really startling to me, explain to me how it is even possible.

The DOJ that SDNY would never reached out to them.

I have no idea why SDNY would not have reached out to them.

I can explain why they might not have reached out prior to Epstein's death for two reasons.

One, both of them were still in his employ.

And to the extent that you don't want to tip off the subject of an investigation,

you don't want to get to the people closest to him who are likely to be loyal to him

and help perhaps with the subversion of evidence.

That was something that was accused with respect to Jeffrey Epstein

in the earlier Florida investigation that they destroyed things that were at the Palm Beach House

that they disposed of, computer equipment and other evidence.

If you thought that was likely to happen again, you might not ask Dernendiker Rich Khan to come in.

But the other reason is something that Michael Feinberg touched on with you yesterday,

which is Dernendike as a lawyer, is not typically the kind of person you bring in to talk to.

Usually when the FBI wants to talk to someone like that, they have to establish

that there is like sort of a higher threshold for talking to someone who behaves as a lawyer.

That having been said, why they didn't talk to either of them after Epstein was found dead

is stunning to me. They had lots of information that they could have provided

that would have been helpful in the prosecution of Galein Maxwell.

And of course, some of their answers yesterday, Alicia, I believe, inculpate them

and why they weren't investigated with respect to potential crimes they may have committed

or at least were potentially aiding and abetting.

Which sound do you think you know?

I am thinking about a number of things, but in particular, I'm thinking about immigration-related crimes.

So there are a number of pieces of sound where each of them were asked about instances

in which they helped Epstein victims arrange for documents that would be helpful

and immigration-related proceedings. In Mr. Khan's case, he was asked for example

about a letter that he wrote on behalf of two known Epstein victims, one an American citizen,

the other a foreign-born person, where he attested to the strength of their relationship

and their passion for each other.

He admitted on his congressional testimony that that was an embellished letter

I'd like to go further than that.

One of the people in that relationship was Jeffrey Epstein's known girlfriend

and his girlfriend at the time of his death.

She is the largest beneficiary of his will.

How a person who principally serves as his accountant and who knew each of these women.

He said he knew both of them, I'm not naming them for their own safety and privacy,

but he said he knew both of them.

Why he didn't know one of them was Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend.

At the time he was asked to write this letter is kind of baffling to me.

Right, okay, I want to stick on that point Tara.

Here is another moment from Darren in Dyke's deposition.

Let's listen and then we'll talk about it on the other side.

Mr. Endike, with the benefit of hindsight,

were there things you witnessed or observed about Mr. Epstein that could have suggested

he was trafficking and sexually abusing young women and girls?

I mean, at what period of time?

During the entirety of your relationship?

No.

I had no knowledge of any allegations before 2006.

And after 2006, when he ultimately went to jail and was back,

my understanding was that which he was underage people.

Sex with underage people.

I understand he was that it was limited to Florida.

And when I was in New York, which is where I spent my time,

I never saw any underage people.

I never saw any sexual activity.

He was, by all accounts, a very smart man.

I couldn't imagine he would do anything to put himself back in that position again.

So no, there's nothing that I saw that would lead me to believe

that he was engaging in miscalculation.

Tara, based on the extensive reporting you have done on this case,

does that seem plausible to you?

No, it's not plausible at all.

It's incredibly, it's baffling, frankly, to think that.

I mean, he was literally withdrawing cash at $7,500 each.

He needed cash. What do you need cash for if not for trafficking?

He's paying off all of these settlements for what?

What are you paying settlements for?

He claims he didn't know what the settlements were about.

He says that wealthy people, they pay settlements all the time to deal with lawsuits.

It's shocking to me that he would say that.

I think he needs to be called back in too to answer questions about Jane Doe 4,

one of the Epstein survivors who alleged that she was assaulted

with Epstein and President Trump.

And during the hearings, he said that he paid a settlement to this Jane Doe 4

and then he retracted it.

So he needs to be brought back in to answer further questions under oath.

I think this entire hearing needs to be redone, frankly.

All right, I have more questions about that.

And no one is going anywhere.

We're going to sneak in a quick break and then we're going to be right back.

I'm not satisfied until the survivors are satisfied.

That's my benchmark.

And obviously, you know, in my floor speech here in the House of Representatives,

I said, men need to be perp walked and handcuffs to the jail.

And until we see that here in this country, we've seen some of that in other countries.

But until we see that here in this country, we don't have a system of justice that's working.

Representative Thomas Massey on the Epstein files we are back with Lisa.

And with Tara, let's talk about the money and the money trail here,

specifically something we heard from Khan about $3 million he received in loans from Jeffrey Epstein.

Take a listen.

It'd be clear you are still paying off those loans.

When Epstein died, I was continuing to pay interest on those loans.

And that's when advice of council sits.

Don't say what it said.

It stopped.

It stopped. Thank you.

Payment stopped.

And based on what the trust provisions had in them.

Put that in context for me.

Well, there's no doubt that working for Jeffrey Epstein was more lucrative than it seemed on its face

based on the salary that both of these guys earned.

As Rich Khan admitted in his deposition and Dernondike admitted his,

both of them got sizeable, multi-million dollar loans from him.

And stopped repaying on those loans after Epstein died.

That means that for some period of time minus the little amount of interest that they paid,

they've gotten multi-million dollar basically awards where they've not had to pay taxes on that.

But in addition to that, Alicia, he made distributions to both of these men from trusts that he had.

And both of them testified to that as well.

Again, and then multiples of millions of dollars.

So you will hear from con and index lawyers,

oh, they only made $250,000 a year.

Oh, they're not being compensated for their time as co-execitors of the estate.

That is true, but the financial picture in totality is far more complex.

Working for Jeffrey Epstein was ultimately lucrative and as the beneficiaries of his will.

Next to that girlfriend we were talking about.

The next two people in line are Dernondike and Rich Khan.

You don't expect to see any money they say based on demands on the estate.

They say new claims are being filed every day.

But if anybody sees money after that girlfriend, who's it going to be?

The two of them.

Tara, how's all of this landing with survivors?

I mean, it's horrific and it's disgusting.

And these people represented Jeffrey Epstein for decades.

And like Jen said so many of the other people that worked for Jeffrey Epstein,

they were really well paid.

I went to their homes, the Butler, the pilot.

They are long retired now and you see where they live and they live in mansions in southern Florida.

These are the type of positions that don't usually lead to this sort of retirement.

I think that these people knew who they were working for and for that they could charge a premium.

I mean, he was, he was bequeathed with these two lawyers $12 and $10 million from the estate.

It's, that is not normal for executors of the states.

So I think they knew exactly what they were doing to pretend that they didn't know what the settlements were for.

The fact that he advised some of these girls to not speak to the feds according to a survivor

and to come to them if they needed a lawyer.

And this is something that I heard from Jane Doe one of the Crime Victims Rights Act case.

Courtney Wilde, she said that when the, when the FBI was trying to reach her,

that she believed they were coming for her because Jeffrey Epstein told her when she was 16 years old,

that she was the one who created a crime of prostitution and that he was willing to give her a lawyer.

So she went to his lawyers and she went to his lawyer.

She said she felt like a prostitute, essentially what he made this 16-year-old feel like.

And that, that was the game. That was the manipulation. And that, and these men were a part of it against, with children involved.

Just was startling when you put it in those terms, Lisa Rubin.

Terrible Mary, thank you both so much for joining us and talking us through this.

There is much more on the Epstein files on this week's episode of the Best People Podcast.

Nicole's guess is Miami Herald, investigative reporter Julie K. Brown,

who's led the way in helping understand and untangling the details of the Epstein case.

To listen to Nicole's conversation, just scan the QR code on your screen or download the best people wherever you get your podcasts.

When we return, Bruce Springsteen takes the fight to Donald Trump,

as Trump tries to revamp the constitutional right of what it means to be born in the USA.

They're gonna explain, after quick break.

A point of New Jersey personal privilege, the boss, Bruce Springsteen himself, is lending his classic,

born in the USA to the ACLU's fight to protect birthright citizenship from Donald Trump.

They say they have purchased airtime for this video during MLB opening day, survivor, American Idol, and other programs.

Take a look.

The Supreme Court will hear a case challenging birthright citizenship.

The 14th Amendment guarantees birthright citizenship.

The Supreme Court will hear a case challenging birthright citizenship from Donald Trump,

as Trump tries to revamp the constitutional right of what it means to be born in the USA.

The Supreme Court will hear a case challenging birthright citizenship.

Supreme Court oral arguments to defend birthright citizenship begin on April 1st.

We're going to be watching that very closely.

We're going to take another break and then we're going to be right back.

Thank you for spending part of your Wednesday with us.

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