The REASON so many boxers take PEDs? Garcia x Benn & Boxing's uncomfortable TRUTH

0:00This is a global production. I knew back then I was probably going to try PED's. The PED's was like my thinking was oh that can help me be like a superhero. Do you feel like you are being judged to be honest I don't really care? We've heard everything. People taking their wives medication. Not athlete in any sport whatsoever is being tested weekly or daily. That's not. The Hall of Fame. You've got to think Don King's in there and he's done some pretty heeners crimes. You think Mike Tyson's in there he's done crimes away from boxing. What's the odd drug sheet here? He made a statement saying that if you don't take it you won't make it. There is no cancel culture in boxing. I've done documentaries on land's Armstrong and I know how many people ride the pressure to follow his lead. Boxing doesn't really care about the safety of the boxes. The majority of people are doing it. Is it cheating?

1:00Hello welcome to the Sports Agents. Hi Nathan. Hello Sir. How are you? I'm very well. I'm sorry I'm not Gabby by the way. I don't know you only like to sit next to Gabby. Well no but what I do find is interesting is that when it's just me and the studio you'll come in. Yes. So when Gabby's in the studio with me you don't come in. So I think I've worked out who your favourite is. And yes I am that needy number one and number two. I know she'll listen to this episode. Hello Gabby. Hope everything's going well Gabby. Now who's sounding needy. So there's a big fight happening in Vegas this weekend. It's brought the issue of drugs and sport back in to the spotlight. So on this show we'll ask if the fight between Ryan Garcia and Britain's Conor Ben should be happening at all. But we're going to get a fighter's perspective. P-E-D-U amongst fighters is a complex issue. So we're going to try and have the whole conversation today. There is a reason why many boxes take P-E-Ds and there are many reasons why people are

2:00very much against them. When Larry Ola Bamiwa was a British heavyweight contender he was a boxer who made that choice. Larry thank you very much for joining us. Your story is fascinating and relevant as we go into this weekend. And it's really the box inside of things that it's really important that we focus on. And your boxing career. But if you can, as succinctly as possible, just explain how you arrived in the boxing world. Because that wasn't your sport as a kid, was it? No, I was a sprinter first and foremost. But I always used to box in the offseason to keep fit. Because I always had a passion for it. And what happened was I think I've, you know, I've ripsed my hamstring really badly. And I just got tired of the rehab and then just decided I was going to go into boxing and happen from there really. And this is also relevant.

3:02I think when we come on to the subject of performance and hunting drugs, you got into sprinting because of, I've got to know that you saw Ben Johnson win the 100 metre. I love it. It's a little bit scared, but I didn't get into sprinting because of him because my uncle wasn't a limbo sprinting job. He competed in the 72 or 76 Olympics, I believe. Sprinter long jump up. But I greatly admired Ben Johnson even to this day. I mean, I think he's the premier sprinter. If you look at everything that he can do and did do and everything he left on the table, especially in that 88 final when he lifted up, he's, he's handing the air like, what, 15 metres from the line of slowdown. He could have literally run what you saying, both ran how many years later. But you admire him still despite everything. I mean, God, honestly, I want to tell the boxing and the, but we're already going off

4:04to add a little bit more. Yeah, but you see that, you're saying despite everything, but let's get, so let me, let me give you an example to show you why what you're saying is very wrong. When you say bolt was at the top of the game, out of the top 10 sprinters in the world, he was the only one that hadn't tested positive for PDs. Then there's the actual 88 Olympics with the race we're talking about, where it's sometimes called and I think it's a bit, it's called the dirtiest race in sport. I think there's other races that were a lot dirtier, but that just goes to tell you that it wasn't just Ben Johnson. So I think people need to pump the brakes when they bash him, you know? As you think that he took the fall for a lot of people? Oh, if you read, if you read his coach, Charlie Francis, who is a brilliant man, Jamie's

5:09past, but if you read his book SpeedTrap, he tells you so many anomalies that happened during the testing of Ben Johnson, that would have got many other sprinters off. But there was, there was, basically, there was, there was propaganda against Ben Johnson from certain other people who I won't name because I don't want to get sued. Clary, to be honest with you, so that's good. It was very similar to how what happened with Lance Armstrong in the, in a cycling in that everyone knew that everyone else was doing it. And I think when we get on to boxing as a, as a sort of more general subject in a little while, that will be a very interesting discussion. I've done documentaries on Lance Armstrong and I know how many people were either pressured by Armstrong to, to follow his lead when it came, when it came to the drugs. I also know how many people went by the philosophy of, well, everybody's doing it.

6:14Therefore, I need to do it if I'm going to stand any chance of competing. And that, that is a, that is a belief in a philosophy that held true through so many people involved in that era of cycling. Some stood up against it and maybe lost their careers because of it. But, but this, that is, that is part of the crux of this whole discussion of how widespread these things are and whether people feel they have to do it. And otherwise they're at a disadvantage. But I know you've got some. Yeah, I think, I think that's a good point and it's great to have you on, Larry, because you're going to be talking about things from your perspective. And even the way you talked about Ben Johnson there isn't a way that I've heard anybody else talk about Ben Johnson before. The way you're talking about, say, you say in both and the group of people, you don't hear that very often. And what it sounds like, in my opinion, is somebody who is informed in terms of how, like, your beliefs around, say, doping and so on within sport. But this is you today. Did you think the same way when you were younger? Did you think the same way when you started, say, for example, your boxing career?

7:15Or is this something which you've sort of learned over time? I remember vividly because I was only like eight or nine, maybe ten, when Ben Johnson got caught. And I was the only one defending him. I had a, I had a good idea because I'm all, even from feeling a very little boy, I was always a very critical thinker, which might sound weird, but there you go. But yeah, I defended him even then. And I say, I said it in a few interviews. I knew back then when Ben Johnson think, when Ben Johnson thing happened that I was probably going to try PEDs. I was also all, you know, this, the kind of guy that loved superheroes. And I was into Marvel Comics heavily as a kid. And you know, I, and it's kind of weird because that's the kind of stuff that kept me away from recreational drugs and alcohol and stuff. But the PEDs was like, I think it was all that can help me be like a superhero, you know.

8:22But in hindsight, it was sort of the beginning of, of how I, how I started to view the whole situation with PEDs. And then as I, as I came up in sport, especially sprinting, especially the area that I came up in and saw for myself, not just what the public was seeing, but saw for myself behind the scenes what was going on. And then interacting with other sportsmen and other sports and saw, and saw what was going on behind the scenes there as well. It came, it made me come to the conclusion that year. Pretty much everyone is at it. And there's, there's, again, I spoke about SpeedTrap, Charlie Forenses's book. And the doctor, Jamie Astafan, who was helping them out with the PEDs, made a statement that always sticks with me. Because he, he obviously he sided with them and that's why he started helping them.

9:23And he made a statement saying, if you don't take it, you won't make it. And while I want to say that's 100%, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the prevailing thought in, with a lot of people, you know. So, so to answer your question, when I got into boxing as an amateur, I knew that was going to have to be, you know, what I was going to have to do. So what, what period are we talking about when you started amateur boxing? And you were already receptive to the idea of PEDs, even, even as you started out as an amateur. I started amateur boxing when I was about 21, 2021. So I didn't, then I had a period off. And then when I came back into the sport when I was about 26, 27, that's when I, you

10:26know, came to the conclusion, I'm going to have to indulge in PEDs in regards to that. You say you had to indulge as such. Did you, were you sort out or did you seek the, the PEDs themselves? And when you say, oh, because, because as you, as you might know, I have a degree in pharmaceutical chemistry. So I, I, I sought at the, the substances and I knew how to procure them and how to actually make sure that what I was getting was the actual stuff with the aim of making it a level playing field or how did you perceive it at that time because you say you wanted to be a superhero or you had that from when you were young. I mean, that, that from when you were younger. Yeah. Yeah. So make it a level playing field, but also to make sure I give myself the best chance of getting to getting as far as I can in the sport. When you turn pro, you had 11 amateur fights, didn't you, I think. Yes. Yeah.

11:26Around the amateur fights before we would get to you turning pro, were you, were other people around you were aware of what you were doing? It was that, is there testing for amateurs fights? And did, and if there was, how do you hide it? No one really was aware of what I think there might have been a few people because I did get a few questions from my other amateur boxes. Obviously they just looked at my physique. It wasn't anything that I was saying, but they looked at my physique and assumed that I was, I was using PDs and they, they asked me certain things. But I didn't happen a lot as an amateur. It happened a lot as a pro, but as an amateur, no one really knew what I was doing. And to be honest, the testing for amateur boxing is, well, full at best, you know. Something I'm trying to square in my mind, Larry, is if everybody is doing it or was doing

12:27it, why would people also try to hide it like yourself? If it is right, then why is it also hidden? Because it's against the rules. So you get to hide it from your peers or from say, authorities? I think it's hiding it. Well, because some of my peers, as a pro, and I won't name who they are, but they knew what I was doing, because I was open with them. But, and I was probably because they were thinking of doing the same thing or did do the same thing. I didn't advise them as such and give them anything, but you basically hide it because you don't know who's going to tell the authorities that you are using performance and arts and drugs. So that's basically it. But you have a trusted circle who you can tell. And, you know, when you termed pro, did things, did your mindset change as regarding, as regards performance and hands in drugs?

13:27So you were inside that, you were a British fighter inside the top 10? No, if anything, it actually made me even more determined to use PEDs, because by that point, especially when I was Southern Area Champion, I had traveled to America. I'd seen plenty of stuff there. And obviously, being in the circuit in this country and mixing with different boxes and training groups, I've seen a lot. So it just confirmed what I always knew to be honest with you. Larry, I've got like two parts that is to such. From the first one, like from my perspective here, I'm learning about boxing. I'm learning about the perspective of somebody that was part of that scene that knows so many people within it. So I do find it fascinating. But firstly, like as you talk about your time, you talk about your sport or the sport that you were involved in. And you talk about your perspective, do you feel like you are being judged and do you think that's fair? To be honest, I don't really care. I see how the feeling that was going to be the answer. That's a perfectly valid answer.

14:28And then you look back at your career, if you were to have regrets and not everybody has regrets, would there be more towards taking the PEDs or being caught? Being caught? And why is that? Was this a mistake on your part? Was this just a change in the authorities that led to you being caught? I was just very like today's a call. The way I was caught was there. I was getting a certain supply from China. America had this operation raw deal where they were trying to stem the flow of PEDs into America by going after the Chinese suppliers. They got some Chinese suppliers. My name was on one of their lists. They sent that to UK anti-dolping. That's how they knew what I was doing. And that's when I got tested. If that never happened, I probably never would have probably, well, if I got to a higher level in terms of the world championships, I probably would have been tested. But I would have been prepared for that.

15:30But basically, at the beginning of my career, I was very diligent to make sure that my protocols would make sure that I'd pass tests. And after the first three or four fights, when I realised I wasn't going to be tested, it was maybe a British title fight. Then I was very latsadaisical with my protocol. So there was no daily testing for you when training or in the build up to a fight. There's no daily testing period, no matter what sport you're doing. There's no daily testing. So when they do testing, it's either targeted testing because they've got information on you or it's the routine out of competition testing or routine competition testing. That's it. There's no daily testing. Daily testing, all the anti-dolping organisations will go bankrupt. These tests cost a lot of money.

16:31You were no, but there are other people in other sports who have sat on, who have been on this show and talked about the testing routines that they have to go through cyclists or athletes. And they're aware about the testers have to know every 24 hours of an athlete's life, where they are. They've done people on this show who have fallen foul of drugs testing laws because their doorbell hasn't worked. Yeah, so that's the whereabouts. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're being tested. That means that you need to let them know where you are. Did you have to do that at that point? No, no, I didn't. So just to answer your question, that doesn't mean that they're being tested daily. No athletes being tested daily. No athlete's been tested weekly. Yes, you have to let them know where you are when you're travelling. So they have the opportunity to test you. But in terms of like no athlete in any sport whatsoever is being tested weekly or daily,

17:32that's not happening. What's your overall perspective then on, say, performance enhancing drugs in your sport and possibly just wider in general because you have gone on records and say that you believe was 80% of most of the big cards within boxing will feature people who are doping. Boxing itself from my perspective feels very different to other sports in regards to that. And to name just like two other sports in say something like track and field athletics, somebody that is clasters being as doping is becoming an outcast and everything stops. Within football, somebody that gets caught doping in the terms of today, in the terms of today, I'll reference that point. People ask the question, well, why would they do that? You don't need to do it. So how is it so different in boxing and realistically, for example, most people when they think about doping from a very, very simplistic standpoint, say it's cheating. In your sport, if the majority of people are doing it, is it cheating?

18:34So it answered to that question before I go into the other sports. No, I don't think it is. So let's go with the, so the anti-dolping organizations go on this thing that they say. The reason why they want to eradicate doping from all sports is because of the fairness in sport and because of the safety in sport. So let's deal with these two things. So as far as the fairness is concerned, there's no such thing as fairness in sport. There's no such thing as fairness in life. Yeah, you have athletes that have better cultures than other athletes. There's that fear. You have athletes that have better equipment than other athletes. There's that fear. So if anything, especially with the majority of PDs, not all, but majority, they're very affordable by most athletes. So if anything, they actually reduce the gap. So we go to the safety aspect of things. So my argument would be that they actually making it more unsafe because if you go to,

19:42and a very famous case of that, I don't know, there was plenty of rumors that it was gone on beforehand, but a very big case that happened with designer drugs was the bulk whole lab scandal. So that was where Victor Conti, who's now passed, got some chemists to make some alterations to anabolic steroid to make a new anabolic steroid that won't be picked up by the test in equipment. And many athletes that use that, including their own brain chambers, which are who I actually know and actually good friends with Dwayne. And yeah, the only reason they were caught was because a jealous coach called Trevor Graham sent in a sample of that drug to the antidote in organizations to say that this group are taking this drug. If you never did that, they never would have been caught. So there's plenty and a thing is that's not, that was just the famous case that happened.

20:45There's been rumors of other athletes that have money hiring their own chemists to make permutations to the testosterone molecule or different other molecules to make it so that it isn't picked up by the testers. The problem with this is that these drugs are not tested for safety because then they're literally new drugs, right? So if anything, the anti-dolpin organizations are actually making it unsafe, more unsafe because they're making athletes go that route. So then my solution to this would have been, look, some people will have arguments that you can't allow all PDs in because someone more dangerous than others. I can accept that fact. But then my solution to that would be allow all the drugs that are actually made in the body, which is your testosterone, your growth hormone, your EPO, allowed holes because that's

21:48naturally made in the body and banned everything else. And then test athletes on their health parameters. That would take care of the safety aspect. When you came back from your ban, you said that you weren't using PDs. Why not? I pretty much fell out of love with the sport by then. As you know, I'm an actor and I wanted to pursue other things. So really, when I came back from my ban, I was just boxing to fund my drama school to get down to drama school. So that's why I became a journeyman when I came back. Do you know what I find really interesting about that? The two sides of this. And I think this in some ways leads into the fight this weekend is it sounds like within the sport, if you care and you want to be successful, you will at least look at the option of taking PDs. Whereas if you don't, then you'll just let it be. And I think as I say, that's probably a good segue to talk about the fight this weekend.

22:52It is. It is. Just a final one though. Do you feel? Do you feel a huge sympathy for those in sport who tried to do it the right way? I take issue with what you mean by the right. I follow the rules. I knew I was going to the phone. I thought I was going to follow the rules. But again, we've got to use our critical thinking here, man. Like, again, rules in polls. Who's to say what's the right way? Who's to say what's the right way? If you mean the way that the authorities want you to do it, that would be a better way to say. So what was the question? Do you have sympathy for those who have tried to make their career in a way that follows the rules of the authorities? No. Because there's a choice. Let's move it on. I don't have a sympathy. I don't feel even way. You make a choice. You go into the sport, you make a choice. That's it. Simple. It's bringing our next guest in just a moment.

23:53Quick reminder, you can catch up on our previous episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or if you get your podcasts, subscribe, follow. Leave us a review whilst you're there, please. Still to come. Ryan Garcia against Conor Ben for the WBC Well-To-Wate title in Las Vegas this weekend. Both of those men have returned positive drugs tests. Both are likely to get at least an eight-figure payday for fighting each other. We'll talk about that fight next. Larry is still with us and boxing journalist and former editor of boxing news, critics and jointers. Just before we get on to the fight, you have interviewed Larry many times, Chris, you know him well. You've heard what we've just been talking about. Where do you... God, this could be a very long answer when I ask you this. What are your initial feelings as you sit down to talk about the fight this weekend

24:55against the backdrop of what we've discussed? Yeah, I mean, I think Larry is a really interesting case study. I think people will probably be astonished that he and I get on really well, really, but given I'm meant to be the moral majority, or maybe moral minority in this case. And I think, yeah, I think it's a very interesting thing. I think the thing is with Larry and boxing specifically is when it does come to PDs, they're IEC a different set of moral guidelines. And I'm not sure where Larry stands on this, but obviously we're not in the fight game trying to run faster, jump higher, or lift more. What's your moral guideline? Damaging. Well, obviously, you know, my moral guidelines will be following the rulebooks, right? And adhering to the rules in place about Doping. But I also feel like there's an ethical argument here about hitting people harder,

25:55full-longer, and being able to inflict more damage. So there's very much that side of things. And you know, there are people out there who talk about Doping and boxing and say, you know, if you do hurt someone and you are found to be taking performance in Hansen drugs, then it could be manslaughter. You know, it could be murder because you're using weapons or artificial weapons at that. But obviously when Larry's talking about it, you know, if you think everyone's on it, then you've got the self-defense argument as well, I suppose. Well, let me just cut into that quickly. I've actually spoken to a few lawyers about that, and that wouldn't hold, because that stance would dictate that people haven't died in boxing or anything. And you can't substantiate how much of a p-d, how much that p-d contributed to that person killing that person. Do you see what I'm saying? So that wouldn't actually hold up from what a lawyer told me.

26:58Can you, though, accept Larry that performance in Hansen drugs make a dangerous sport even more dangerous by increasing your power artificially? Creating is a very, very, a very good supplement that increases strength and power. So are you saying that it doesn't matter if damage or death is done when someone takes creating, but then it matters when someone does it and it's taken a p-d. I suppose it's the level of playing field, because either fight or can take creating. But if you're taking something outside the rules, then it's not creating. But it's for me, it's the death aspect, because that's what you guys are going on. So again, is it okay? Or why do you have so much of a problem if it's a substance that's not in a rule book as opposed to something that is in a rule book? Do you know what I mean? Because that was your central argument that someone has more power to be able to hurt someone. So then if you have more power due to having a supplement that's allowed in a rule book,

28:02then do you understand what I'm saying? It kind of kills that morality argument. You can use that morality argument with EPO and people who can afford to go to Big Bear and Train of altitude as well, right? If someone can afford the whole setup to go to Big Bear and Train of altitude and say they're a top of the line fighter with good sponsors and high level promoters, that gives them an artificial advantage. But someone could get a similar effect by taking EPO and staying at home, but which one's cheating? Is that the way they do that? It's like, yeah, 100%. 100%. You have guys who can afford hyperbaric chambers. We don't even have to go to altitude training and just do that. Just lie in a hyperbaric chamber when they're sleeping and get that same effect as well. What's the difference? Do you see what I'm saying? This is what I'm saying. People need to come away from this whole moral thing because it doesn't work. It doesn't stand a test. It doesn't. And I understand people because I understand that Trizz is not for just like Mark is and probably

29:03yourself, they're not for PDs and sports. And that's fine. But then don't use the moral argument because it doesn't stand up. You know what I mean? And that's what that's my big gripe with these sort of arguments. Me and Trizz still could be. Yeah, of course. So for my side of things, I'll must say across sport in general. Like, I don't believe in the idea of a level playing field because there's always something that somebody will have which other people will not have. But in regards to Trizz's point, this is something come from somebody on the outside of boxing here. You said with some of these fighters, they were able to punch hard and punch for longer. So within the sport where people probably want to watch that, why does it matter? Because surely a fight where people are punching harder and for longer is something which will draw eyes. And essentially for as much as it's a combat sport, people are wanting to be entertained by that as well. Boxing doesn't really care about the safety of the boxes. And I'll tell you why. So and I've had plenty of experience with this by the way. So I know this is true and Trizz knows this is true because he's been in the street longer than me.

30:06There's many fights that are made last minute where the other boxer hasn't even trained. And it just bought in last minute. Has that safe? You've got a fighter who's done a full camp, maybe a 12 week camp. And because I don't know a fighter's pulled out or maybe he's a prospect and you got you want some a body coming in. You let them know you've got them. You've given them like four days notice. They haven't even trained. And you want them to jump in the ring. And then you want to talk about fairness and safety in the sport. It doesn't hold up. This is what I'm saying. Like all of these moral arguments. And if you look at everything, I think I'm biased and all the facts, you will understand that these arguments don't hold up. Can I ask, sorry, can I ask Larry a question there? Larry, can I ask a completely hypothetical question? What if you had taken something and you have really badly hurt someone? And they were a clean fighter. Would you have felt, do you feel like you would have felt a type of way about that?

31:06I would have felt the same way I would have felt if I didn't take anything and I'd done the same thing. I would feel bad for the person, but that could have easily happened to me. So that's how I would feel about it. Because again, I don't understand. Because again, that can happen when no one's taking anything. And this is the part that a lot of people seem to forget. How many times have people died in the ring? It's a dangerous sport. It's you're hitting each other. So unless we're going to take that out of the equation, do you know what I mean? Like, I suppose Larry, the question will be, and again, probably have to come back to your pharmaceutical knowledge here. Is there a greater chance of that happening because of the PED? Well, finally you say that because they've actually done some research into a growth hormone and how it's actually protective of the brain of fighters.

32:08Because they've noticed that this has done quite a while ago, actually. They've noticed that a lot of fighters at the end of their career, they produce a shock and need low amount of growth hormone. And that's because of the blows they've had to the head. And as a consequence, it takes the, I think, to cerebral fluid. Makes it even less than it actually should be. And they've realized that that actually gives a protective element to it. So I find that quite fascinating. But it all depends on the elements. Because at the end of the day, like I mentioned, creatine is a very effective supplement for strength and anaerobic stamina. Now, depending on who you are, like myself, I'm a hyper-respondent to creatine. Creatine for me is like taking an anabolic steroid. Like that's how effective it is. And I know a lot of people like that. So again, it depends on the person.

33:09So I could, I literally could say in answer to your question that no, in terms of using creatine, because I can't really speak on other sports supplements. But in terms of creatine, which is allowed, that wouldn't, I think it's the same sort of effect. Can I just ask a very basic question on creatine? And then, and then, Trace will get onto boxing as an industry and this fight. But just because creatine keeps coming up a lot, and you mentioned it's found in red meat. I'm not saying that you're using creatine as a justification for other arguments here. But would there be a way of managing the levels of creatine allowed? Because I know you say it's fact, I know it's found in red meat. But if you took, if you, if you banned, if you looked at levels of creatine and only allowed a certain amount of creatine within an athlete's body, would that affect your argument?

34:10No, it wouldn't because, and again, these studies have been done already. And this is why you also have hyper-responders and non-responders to creatine. So there's many athletes that have an abundantly high amount of creatine in their systems, which is over the natural limit for most individuals. So you wouldn't then be able to say, oh, well, you know, you cannot, you cannot perform in this sport because you've got a high creatine level. It does, it doesn't work that way. The wider boxing industry, then, Trist with this fight at the weekend, before we get on to the fight at the weekend, how would, very mind these rules are in place and they, you know, there are drugs that are banned and performance and hands in drugs. How is boxing set up as a sport and an industry to deal with

35:14people who are taking them? Well, very poorly because, as Larry alluded to in the first part, in the first part, the testing is very, very limited. Even when you get the big agencies involved, whether it's UCAD or ORVADA, they can't comprehensively test year-round really. The WBC has a clean boxing program, which they implement and they do hundreds of tests every year with some of the top fighters. But I speak to people regularly about this subject. I spoke to one of the top women's fighters, Michaela Mayer, last week, a couple of weeks ago and she said she had very little testing. I spoke to a journeyman, Johnny Greaves, who had 100 fights, didn't get one test in 100 fights. And I know he's a journeyman, but even so, 100 fights and zero tests. And there's plenty of other good fighters who have told me they've had absolutely minimal testing. And as Larry said, there's not the money involved. And I think there's possibly the wider issue is that there's no,

36:19I don't really encourage, cancel culture, but there is no cancel culture in boxing. And instead of there being cancel culture, these guys, guys that pop are generally rewarded for becoming for coming either anti-heroes or having a redemption arc or something different or becoming more infamous with big paydays. And it's right the way through the sport, you know, with recent Hall of Fame inductions where you've had shame mostly, Roy Jones, James Tony, they've all got positive PDs. They've gone straight into the Hall of Fame, straight into the Hall of Fame. No questions asked. Like there's no, there's no really strict punishments, even when one of our flagship fighters, can other our virus tested positive and he was banned. He was basically banned for the duration that he would have been out of the ring in between fights anyway. So, you know, because a lot of these guys, and this is another part of the problem, fight once or twice a year, and Larry will be ever talked to you more than this than me, but that allows cycling, like which allows it to become

37:23rife. So, you know, I hate to say Mark, but like it's really, it's really not set up for stringent testing and I think there's so many people that slip through the net. And I think just one of the most damaging things is I spoke to one of the more important drug testers in the world recently. And I said, have you done more than 100 positive tests? And in many ways, this is to Larry's credit and she and I was told, yes, they've had more than 100 positives in boxing through the years. And I said, how many fighters have owned up to it? And they went not one. And everyone's got an excuse. And you think the law of averages, one person's got to be taken something intentionally somewhere, but we've heard these crazy excuses, you know, from so far, I left field, we've heard everything. So people taking their wives' medication or they've eaten something random and you know, and it's crazy, but it's basically, you know, and we've mentioned Lance Armstrong there, you know, Lance was a tack attack attack. These guys deny, deny, deny and sweep under the carpet and

38:28crack on. So this is going to be linked to the fight this weekend, but is it a case that within boxing? Because it comes down to entertainment, sometimes rules and procedure doesn't really matter. And the reason I asked that is because for many, they're sort of wondering why is Conor Ben fighting Ryan Garcia anyway with the backdrop of, say, the PDs, but it also just the weight classes and things like that. Yeah, so obviously, I think there's a big political question here. And I did speak to the head of the WBC this week, Mauritio Suleiman, because Conor Ben's last fights were at middleweight against Chris Uback and now he's ranked number one by the WBC at Welterweight, which is two divisions south, and he's got a title shot. So that's a big question itself. Mauritio basically said, you know, Conor had always told him he was going to be going back down and wait after the UBank fights. And so he was sort of keeping the spot warm for him. I'm not sure how the other fighters at 147 pounds feel about that. Well, I can imagine how they feel about that. But that, you know, you hit the

39:30nail on the head of your point, you know, when there's money involved and so much such a strong commercial aspect, you can see exactly why it's why it's being made. And it's not necessary. And you know, people out there are saying, oh, it's the best fight and the best. And I think there's a lot of fighters at 147 pounds that would dispute that as well. But you can't get in the way of these commercial juggernauts. You just can't, you know, and there's very little, you know, even when, thought it may well have had a domestic abuse charge around his fight with Miguel Cotto. And they kept him out of prison so he could fight Cotto in Vegas. And then he went to prison afterwards. You know, where there's a, where there's a, a world there's a way in this sport. Now tell me if you're willing to do that, how much less would it be to be to cover up a PED test or a PED positive or, you know, just that you see what I'm saying. It goes back to your point about where you're sitting where you set the moral high ground, doesn't it?

40:30Yeah, man. And at the end of the day, look, sport is big business. Money talks, yeah. And this is, funnily enough, this goes to why you'll never get rid of PEDs because even before, even before there was money in sport, there were PEDs. There's all, you know, people always want to push themselves and want to even if there's no money involved, they want to see how far human beings can go. And that aspect is never going to be, you're never going to take that away from people. So, but then add money to the mix and it's like, yeah, well, I'm trying to secure mine and my family's future. So this is why I'm going to do what I'm going to do. And I see a Ben Trist just to finish this all off. Do you think there's, is there more, not, I don't know, I don't know, whether Angers the right word, but are there more questions about this fight because him, because of Ben going to well to wait than both having failed drugs tests in the past?

41:33Well, that's a good question. It's a good question. I think it depends on what side of the fence you're on, really. And I don't mean in terms of my side or Larry side of that fence, but I mean, in terms of, you know, are you looking for the quick hits, the clicks and that kind of stuff, you're just looking for the highlights and, you know, two famous people fighting or are you going to approach it with a slightly stronger moral compass? And it's worth, it's worth adding here that both Connor Ben and Ryan Garcia do say that they, they, they, they never took anything despite the positive tests. I mean, it is worth adding that. And obviously Connor went through a very long process of trying to prove his innocence and managed to continue fighting in America before he came back for the U-bank fights and his process was, was dealt with. I just, it's hard. I mean, I don't think enough is made period of people who have failed tests. And like I said, I'm not necessarily

42:33saying it's council council culture and we should necessarily keep hitting these guys over the head, but I think there is an asterisk as long as the sport is what it is. And as long as sport generally is what it is that if people are achieving things while taking substances that they are told they they can't take, then there has to be a deeper conversation. And I do think, you know, in terms of what Larry said as well, and I appreciate this is sort of going sideways a little bit in terms of the argument, but when I talked about the Hall of Famers, you think some of these guys taking PDs have gone into the Hall of Fame. You've got to think Don King's in there and he's done some pretty heinous crimes. You think Mike Tyson's in there, he's done crimes away from boxing. You know, what's the odd drug cheat here or there? You know, and it's all it all depends on your perspective. And I think obviously there's a very moral stance that you could take about this. Two guys failed tests shouldn't be rewarded. Final final question because then we have to move on.

43:36To all to everybody really I suppose. And I'm trying to work out the language here Larry, so you don't pick me up on that. Say how you want to say it. How much sport, whenever you watch sport now, do you think I wonder what that person or that person is doing? Or does it not talk to you? It doesn't matter. Talk to me because at the end of the day, you see the problem is is that PDs has been given this mythical status like, you know, the magical beings. And while they do work, you've got to train your arsehole. In fact, if you don't train as harder than you normally train, it doesn't necessarily work for you because that's the whole point of these drugs. They allow you to train harder so you can reap the benefits at the competition. So I don't I don't necessarily care or think about what anyone is actually

44:38using because they have to work they have to work their arsehole to get to compete at the highest level. You know, so that is the it's the it's the work ethic and that really decides where someone's going to go. Not the PDs. The PDs are just a tool. Yeah. It's been a really interesting conversation to hear a different perspective of somebody within it. And I think what I like about Tristan Larry's like, they're both very different, but there's almost like a common ground in disillusionment towards the sport in some ways. And I can see where that's coming from. And I think from my side of things when it comes down to things like doping, I don't think about it until somebody is until I hear that somebody's been doping because for me, I might probably millions of others when I watch the sports that I watch, I watch your friend's attainment. And some of the other stuff ends up coming afterwards and it's a very very dangerous sort of conversation to sort of try and say the moral side of this and moral side of that because as you peel back a layer, you start to realise there's lots of stuff down there which you probably don't want to see. Tristan's all your talkings with Larry and Deedlings with Larry,

45:42has it changed how you view boxing? That's a tough one as well. It's changed out of you, Larry. Maybe that should be the end. No, look, I mean the one thing is we don't have these smoking guns left to right. I mean, maybe we do have the smoking guns, but we don't have the fingerprints. We still are so far without people giving us real information whether it's on the fighters taking stuff or or admitting it, the trainers taking stuff or the SNC coaches providing it, like there's no one really who's given loads of information or intelligence to anyone about what's going on. So we don't know. And I'm still surprised that sometimes when I go to some of the gyms in boxing, I see how backwards some of the training methods are with strength and conditioning boxing and look at some of the techniques with weightlifting and different things that I'm shocked at how backwards it is. And I think how would they know scientifically what to be taking

46:44if they're not using the equipment properly or they're not squatting properly because I think sometimes it's a very old school sport, but then sometimes I think no one's taking it and we're too backwards for it and sometimes I'll chat to Larry and I think everyone's taking it. Chris, Larry, thank you very much for coming on and your perspectives and your story as well. Much appreciated. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Thanks for having us. Well, thank you to Larry and Chris for joining us, fascinating points of view. Incredible. That's one of my favourite conversations I've had with people in a different sport to my own. It will probably divide opinion, but it's good to hear another side to it whether people agree or they don't. And you can let us know your opinion on it. I email the sports agents at global.com or at the sports agents across social media. All of our past episodes are on YouTube global player or wherever you get your podcasts and please subscribe, maybe even leave a review and we'll be back soon.